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Do We Need Pali?
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- Опубликовано: 28 апр 2019
- Pāli is the language of many of the oldest Buddhist discourses. Do we need to know Pāli to know about or practice early Buddhism? We'll consider that question with reference to a new book out by eminent Pāli scholar Richard Gombrich, as well as a look at a couple of early texts from the Buddha ... translated from Pāli.
If you would like to help support the channel, check out my Patreon page at / dougsseculardharma
Book:
Buddhism and Pali: amzn.to/2TVD0mB
Texts mentioned:
Vinaya Khuddaka: suttacentral.n...
The Analysis of Non-Conflict: suttacentral.n...
Other material:
On the word "barbarian": www.etymonline...
On the Sanskrit for that word: sanskritdiction...
Discussion with Richard Gombrich about his book: • Book Discussion Buddhi...
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I appreciate this video very much. I grew up in Thailand so Pali and Sanskrit are ingrained in our language. We learned in school and used them on a daily basis. I could see that some Buddhist scripture words cannot translate properly in English. In Thailand, we have been adopted Theravada Buddhism for over 800 years. Still there are many Pail words that we just use them and never translate them into Thai. Knowing Pali and Sanskrit even a little bit, could help you study dharma. On the other hand, Buddhism is not about studying Buddha Dhamma alone. It is actually more important to practice. And no one would need specific knowledge on any language to practice Buddhism.
That's right Sompop, it is helpful to know a little Pāli or Sanskrit, but not necessary for practice.
Pali language is the key to learn the Buddhism correctly.thank you so much for your explanation.as a Buddhist monk and pali language student im really happy to see this video.thank you so much and best of luck with metta.
Wonderful, you're very welcome Ven. Amunudowe! 🙏
Thank you mr.doug.😊
@wish i knew which faith was right. yor welcome. There are so many books to study Buddhism. I will tell you few of them.
01.what the Buddha taught- prof.walpola Rahula ( highly recommended)
02.Tha Buddha and his teachings - Narada.
03.what Buddhists believe - K.sri Dhammananda
04.Bhikkhu bodhi's and Nanamoli's books.
May you have a brilliant future.
I am from Kerala and we speak Malayalam here. Most of the keywords in the suttas 're in our normal day to day usage. Even though the teachings 're long gone, these words are well preserved and embedded in the language and culture. When I study certain sutta, sometimes the English translation wont make sense at all and I look into Malayalam root word which provides more clarity and in depth understanding and ends me up in goosebumps. It might be because Buddha's teachings were here even before this language itself formed as it is now.
Yes probably so!
Very good Doug.
Something that has impressed me about Buddhism is that as you progress in the dharma (although progress isn’t the right metaphor but you know what I mean) and you hear other people talk - you realise that nearly everyone comes to the same set of realisations.
This is not about everyone adopting the same doctrine. It’s because fundamentally meditation is about looking at what is going on in your own experience - and people make the similar errors on the way and get the same realisations. And this gives one great confidence that the dharma is essentially “true” because you have seen it for yourself and you can see that others have also.
So the dharma cannot be confined to a particular language because it appears to map human experience at a more universal level than a particular language.
Personally I think one of the core issues that the dharma addresses, is the role and effect of language itself and in particular the way that we live our stories as if they are reality.
If so this means that the dharma MUST be taught in the language and culture of the listener because each culture lives by its own stories.
And this is really why promoting a local dharma using a foreign language, foreign names, foreign imagery ( I have never forgotten a huge snake in one Scottish temple - Scotland doesn’t have much in the way of snakes) etc- will never catch on save amongst those who actively want to escape their own culture.
Thanks for that Austin, yes I think that the dharma comes more easily to the heart and mind through one's own idiom. That said the word "dharma" is a loan-term from Sanskrit, so there is room for fudging at the edges! All languages pick up terms and ideas that they need, just as we can pick up a new tool from our neighbor if we need it. And as I mentioned in the video, it *is* useful to know these languages if you are doing scholarship. That will always be useful. 🙂
Here is my two cents. "Dharma" is a Sanskrit word, it grossly means "Religion" (any religion), but not exactly. In Sanskrit it also means virtue (or property in science), eg, "dharma" of water is fluidity. In that way "dharma" of human being (in Sanskrit it's called "Manaba dharma") is helping others without expectation in return. Regards
You say escape, I say explore.
@@SudipBhattacharyya I would say that "teaching" or "inherent way" (similar to chinese Dào, which was often used to translate Dharma into chinese) are some good approximations. You also have to keep in mind that Dharma in its singular form is often set apart from "dharmas" in plural form, which means something along the lines of "particles of existence of something" similar to the term "atomoi", that Demokrit introduced to western philosophy.
In Theravada Buddhism there are 2 branches of Dhamma that are generally recognised: i.e Pariyatti (Study) and Patipatti (Practice). The point of the Buddha's teachings are that they are something to be practiced and NOT studied. The Buddha spent his lifetime teaching in the easiest languages and dialects his listeners could understand. So as disciples we should only study what is absolutely necessary to help us deepen and perfect our daily practice. Sadly many people devote their lives to the study of Pali only. To me this is like sitting at home and reading a bus timetable each day, and never going out to the bus stop to actually undertake the journey!!
True Alan. That said, it can at times be helpful to have a timetable expert around in case you have a complicated question you can't figure out with the route printed on the bus map. 🙂
this may run counter to the initial goal of knowing the Dhamma in common language, but i find some Pali words can be useful tools in a meditative context because they are different than my mundane language and allow me to depersonalize while dissecting the phenomena, almost as an argot of sorts, though of course I find it even more helpful that I am able to learn Dhamma in plain English.
Good point Elie. I think this is also one reason why it's often popular to do chants in foreign languages or even meaningless syllabaries.
@@DougsDharma I appreciate the level of scholarship in your videos. Your analysis is both academic and Dhammic. Even your skepticism seems to come from a Dhammic consciousness. Excuse the puff up.
Thanks Elie!
@@DougsDharma Just throwing a video suggestion out there. Drugs. The 5th precept, so called 'chemical wisdom' &'psychedelic buddhism' etc. seems to be a great deal of confusion & potentially dangerous advice going around.
I am blown away by the precision. Your talk very helpful in helping me to decide on whether or not to invest time learning Pali.
My verdict is: probably, just to help me to remember and enjoy chanting and Puja. An uplifting past time. But not to be confused with the practice and intention of the Buddha.
Yes exactly so Martin. Thanks!
The earliest known Pali texts ( Theravada Buddhism); texts fragments from the Tripitaka in Pali , written in Pyu Burmese script , on gold plates which were excavated at Maugan, Burma Pyu kingdom 5th century AD ( British library)
The earliest Pali texts (recorded as Pyu Burmese script ) 5th century AD or earlier than that, in the world is Pyu Burmese Golden Pali texts:
“A description of some Pali texts found inscribed on gold in an old Burmese stupa which demonstrate the care with which the Pali tradition has been preserved even during the early medieval period in Burma”)by Janice Stargardt
Words and the meaning of words change over space and time.
Words we must use but we must never allow ourselves to be used by them.
Indeed so Mael-Strom, well said! 🙏
❤❤❤😂😂😂😂😂 what a really precious work done by you. Congratulations for you future works 👏 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Thank you so much 😀
Born in the oldest country in Southeast Asia, CAMBODIA 🇰🇭 I like your description and I personally love learning Pāli. It is the original language of the universe also spoken and understood by Deva and Supra-mundane beings as well.
It's a lovely language, but it's just a language like any other. 🙂
Easy to understand your explanation, I learned many things, thank you.
Great! Glad to hear it Nirmal.
Pali is called "village" and "vasha" is language in the State of Odisha, India.
If you want to learn more please visit the birth place of Buddha, situated at 'Kapilaprasad' near Bhubaneswar.
This spread to Java, Bornio and Indonesia through the sea traders of ancient Kalinga (Odisha).
You can find the name of 'Valluka', who is Odia trader, the first deciple of Buddha at the time of his enlightenment.
The oldest surviving Buddhist texts in Pali language come from the relic chamber of a Buddhist stupa at Sriketra, Burma.
They consists of a twenty leaf manuscript of solid gold and a large glided reliquary of silver.
A new and exhaustive palaeographic study of these inscriptions shows that they dated from 5th century AD.
Unlike all the other early Buddhist societies of southeast Asian, evidence of Mahayana contacts in Pyu cities is SCANT.
Pyu kingdoms were in contact with several Indian kingdoms in the south east as well as north but stood in tutelary relationships to none.
From the earliest evidence of Pyu Buddhist writing,art,architecture Pyu laid the foundations of distinctive Burmese traditions of Buddhism within the greater Buddhist euumene( Crd to ASajji)
Beautifully presented - thanks, especially for the historical context of Sanskrit establishment prestige related to Pali/prakrits. This can be a touchy subject among certain religious in India even today, thus well-sourced scholarship like this is really helpful.
You're very welcome, Paul! Thanks for the comment. Yes, it has become somewhat politicized in some circles ...
I like Pali more than Sanskrit.
Personal preference I guess.
Maybe because it's simpler. I like saying kamma, not karma. Arahant, not Arhat. Sutta, not sutra. Maybe I just like original things. I wonder if things are translated correctly, and if some things just never had words in Pali. Are we sure killing is being translated correctly, and it doesn't mean murder? Did Pali have a word for conscience? Etc.
Very good video!
I definitely agree that one who practices Buddhism doesn't actually need to be fluent in Pali, or know Pali at all. But, of course, those aren't the only two states of knowing Pali (or any language). We may not need to know the uses of the optative or the locative absolute but grappling with the terms found in the Eightfold Path or the three marks of existence, etc, may deepen our understanding and practice.
I agree! Thanks EB.
Pali means the language of the village. Buddha preached in Magadhi language. But in another province, because of the different meaning of Buddha's words due to the local language. . Thats why budha asked kachayana to make grammer of magdhi language .that refined magdhi later known as pali Vedic language is a mixture of Persian and Prakrit languages .sanskrit is refined form of pali and Prakrit languages
I appreciate every wonderful video you have made. I was very curious when you said the Buddha was familiar with the Upanisads because we never see him mention them. Interestingly, the oldest Upanishad mentions two characters that were contemporary to the Buddha, which means that unlike popular Hindu propaganda they are post Buddhistic. Best wishes
A lot of contemporary scholarship shows that the Buddha was discussing points from the early Upaniṣads, and I'm not aware of any characters in them who were contemporaries of the Buddha. Usually the earliest Upaniṣads are dated a few decades or so before the Buddha's lifetime.
Buddha's path is simple. Follw the Five Perceps and Noble Eight fold path.
Pali was main language of north india during ASHOKAS PERIOD
The precise role of Pāli as a spoken or didactic language is a matter of deep scholarly dispute.
King ashoka used as his government language 'Asoka prakrit'. not the pali language.pali language is a dialect of middle indo aryan language era.thank you.
While it is undoubtedly important to know as accurately as possible what the Buddha said, perhaps it is even more important to understand what he meant. That is, the interpretation of the Buddhas words is paramount. And that depends on one's subjective viewpoint . And that's why we have so many Buddhist teachers who base their ideas on the suttas, but who also think they are right and everyone else is wrong! You only have to look at ideas about the jhanas for an example.
Yes, exactly. Interpretation is difficult and always going to be controversial. Even understanding accurately what the Buddha said involves interpretation.
Shakyamuni Siddhartha Gautam took birth in the family of Kshatriya(warrior/king) clan of Ikshavaku(Pali- Okkada) of Solar dynasty(Suryavamsham). It was in this clan that all the prominent Hindu emperors including Lord SriRama took birth as well as all Lords of Jainism also took birth in this clan.
The training of Sanskrit and Vedas were part and parcel of their education:- Called Brahmacharya. Lord Buddha must have been aware of Sanskrit language and its subtlety. He wanted to transmit his teachings in masses and thus he spoke in local dialect mostly likely Magadhi Prakrit. It was a noble and compassionate gesture from the Lord of Brahmaviharas- Buddha..
Hey Doug, out of curiosity, have you studied any Buddhist scriptural language?
Yes, I've studied Pāli and Sanskrit. 🙂
one thing to note here - the 'idealisation' of language is inherent to Sanskrit as a form. Samskrtam means 'composed' or 'perfected' (lit. 'put/made' (kr) 'together' (sama))
Yes well one of the ideas from Vedic times is that Sanskrit is kind of a perfected Ur-language. That's why proper pronunciation was seen as so important.
Hi,
Do you think Sankratization of Buddhism was a way of Brahmins to gain control of what they perceived as their 'opponent' ideology (i.e. Buddhism)? Because it challenged their hold or privileged position? Is that the reason Buddhism didn't really survive in India?
Is it perhaps the same reason, Brahmanism has dominated everything and has opposed everything that it perceived as a 'threat' to its hegemony? And one of the tools is Sanskrit?
I think it’s a lot more complicated than that. The basic idea though is that Buddhism drew in a lot of people from Jainism and Brahmanism who came with their own language and vocabulary, and who most likely wanted to translate the dharma into terms that would be most intelligible to others in their communities.
There are reports that Buddha denied his monks to translate his lectures/sermons into Vedic Sanskrit.
@@jayw8726 buddha had many brahmins students and they used( cchandas) language
@@neelaghanekar2789 Yeah but Buddhist scripture though survived in the synthetic Pali language. That means monks rather created another language to translate Buddha's Kosali, or Maghadian language rather than translating to the existing Sanskrit language.
@@jayw8726 thank you sir.
Yes we need pali and Sanskrit. Like some need hebrew and latin or urdu. Enough confused English interpretation of buddha teachings.
For scholarly study, sure. Some may even want them for personal practice. But how do you see the interpretation I presented as incorrect? 🙏
We don't need sanskrit. In fact, Buddha has told not to put his teaching into Sanskrit.
@@maharaja1910 lol Mahayana Buddhism is in sanskrit
@@rtam7097 Because Mahayana came much later. But if you look at the early Buddhist texts (Pali Canon and Gandhara Sarvastivada Vinaya Pitakas), they both mention not to translate the Dhamma to sanskrit.
@@maharaja1910 Sarvastivada school used Sanskrit. Famous Sanskrit dramatist like Ashvaghosa nd infact 1st one much before Kalidasa was a Saravastivada Buddhist whose one prominent work is *Buddha Charita* .
Dharmaguptaka school which was mainly active in Central Asia used Gandhari Prakrit used Gandhari Prakrit.
Nd at Buddha's time there was no Sanskrit but only Vedic language which many call Vedic sanskrit I don't know why.
Sanskrit came later after Panini.
I think Ive seen ALL of your vídeos ;-), doug is there a bhudas recommendation on How much should we sleep? Thanks already
Not to my knowledge. The Buddha is said to have slept very little, but then he would have spent many hours in deep meditation every day, so that may have made up for it.
Prakrit means original and Sanskrit means Sanskrit or developed language ; Sanskrit was developed from Prakrit language in 2nd century after Common era which called Proto Sanskrit which further developed and in 8th century took form Sanskrit language. So at time of Buddha there was no Sanskrit language exist.
Vedic Sanskrit existed perhaps a millennium before the Buddha’s time, and Sanskrit was described and formalized by Panini around the time of the Buddha.
Proof anywhere written if please share proper and authentic reasearch paper and Sanskrit inscription written. Sanskrit has been lied that it has been passed on orally it's all because brahmanism want to show it as a the oldest language written crores of years before all concept of Hinduism or brahmanism is taken and stolen from Buddhism.
@@DougsDharmayou know nothing bro please dig on Indian history properly half baked knowledge of yours will give misinformation only
Hello Doug. Great video. And I have also recently enjoyed your podcast with Jon.
The importance of practice aside, I have become more and more interested in Pali. Particularly since I have been experimenting with chanting.
Apart from the book mentioned in this video, are there any ressources you might recommend for a beginner? I stumbled on a free course by Bodhi Monastery, seemingly lead by Bhikkhu Bodhi? He also seems to have his own book on Pali? (Does the guy ever sleep?😂)
I'm not looking to get fluent. But I feel it might help my practice in the long run.
Thanks again, Doug. Your content really makes a difference.
Nice to hear! Yes Bhikkhu Bodhi does have an online recorded Pāli course, and a book talking about Pāli translation. Those could be places to start. The Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies also has or had an online Pāli course as well.
@@DougsDharma Thanks, I'll keep the Oxford course in mind. The interactive course seems to be on hiatus but you can still purchase the self-study courses.
Prakrit pali langveg buudhist civilaijsan 5000 year old iam indian buudhist 🌞🌙🙏🙏
Thanks Prerana!
The brahmans insistence on the superiority of Sanskrit over other languages is similar to the insistence of muslims on superiority of Arabic over other languages. They say Arabic is the language of the people in heaven. Similar to Hindu's claim with regard to Sanskrit.
Professor Raj Somadawa in Sri Lanka has found the Pali origin ,which is come from Magadee language ,which is Lord Buddha's language
I have recently been learning some chants in Pali. I think it's beautiful and chanting in English just doesn't sound as beautiful. 😊 Is it necessary? No. It's just another option for people who might want to dive a little deeper. Do i have a desire to learn every sutta in Pali? Heck no 😂 but I'm enjoying learning a few basic chants. I also feel that it is a wonderful way to connect with people who have chanted in Pali for a thousand years. I think it can be beneficial if you're so inclined but I don't think it's necessary to practice and walk the path 🙏
🙏😊
Vedic Literature:- Samhita, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads are in older Sanskrit ie:- Vedic Sanskrit. There were tools that had been devised to make the Guru pass on this knowledge from generation to generation. Thus they employed mnemonics tool like Pathas:- Padapatha, Samhitapatha, Kramapatha, Jatapatha, Ghanapatha, etc. These were the arrangement of verses in various combination in order make the students learn the verses, suktas, kandikas, prapapathaks, brahmans, mantras and sutras..
This was all done as there was no writing system for a long time in ancient Indian history. But these techniques made the preservation of text foolproof. Of the vedas, not even a difference of a svara(vowel) can be found. There was separate study called as Shiksha(Education) under Vedangas(Limbs of Vedas) devoted for these preservation techniques. To preserve the words of Lord Buddha and ensure no corruption, Buddha's disciples must have thought to transmit his teachings in Sanskrit or with its technique.
Yes it's generally assumed that the monastics used these techniques to preserve the early teachings.
He did not speak Sanskrit, however, which is part of what the original comment is claiming.@DougsDharma
Is it a coincidence or some hidden connection ? In buddha life time , Brahmin are predominant there : burma is called Brahmadesh since BC era ( with evidence from contemporary neighboring countries records) and the script is Brahmi script : it will be interesting to find out .
And Pyu Burmese are the earliest Theravada Buddhist kingdom in all Southeast Asia and earliest known Pali texts was found in Pyu cities burma ( 20 gold plates of Pali texts Of Theravada Buddhism )
My great frustration... the concept that language X has a word that doesn't translate well... (seem to hear it a lot on academia)
so.. that is a poor excuse. That is how language works. And we should not confuse "it doesn't translate well" with what seems to consistently be what they really mean, it doesn't have a word for word translation.
cool, write a footnote., offer an explanation. That is the nature of any translation from one language to another. Bilingual speakers face this kind of thing all the time.
great video
Thanks Matthew, agreed! 🙏
Can learning Pali by Anki ?
What is it about the founders of religions never committing their teachings to writing within their lifetimes!? You would think it would be important to them. The teachings are always finally written down centuries later. Buddha had 80 years to do it. I think Mary Baker Eddy is the only documented religious founder that committed her teachings to writing within her lifetime. I know I'm shadow banned but I like to put my thoughts to writing and maybe AI will be interested.
So far as we know, writing didn't exist at the time and place where the Buddha was teaching, so he wouldn't have known about it.
@@DougsDharma Brahmin scriptures were already in writing in the Buddha's lifetime and being un upper class member of royalty, he would have been fully versed in the Sanskrit scriptures and in fact he referred to them during his talks with his pupils. Boggles the mind that he didn't bother to have his teaching written down in his lifetime. Its as if religious founders wanted to ensure an element of lasting doubt from the get go.
I think Pali Language or magadhi prakrit of masses and Sanskrit was literary language. This is because Buddha himself was against caste system i.e. anti-brahmanism. Buddha spread this teachings among masses using a common language. (p.s. I commented before finishing the video but it has the same hypothesis).
Yes it seems as though Pāli may have reflected more of a spoken language, although I think even this is somewhat controversial.
@@DougsDharma Actually the languages were modelled scientifically by the religious people and taught them to people and people slowly adopted them as their new language. So, we can say pali or Prakrit( group of languages) were in that transition zone of becoming the language of masses. By that time, Sanskrit emerged and sat in the throne. Main difference is, Pali or Prakrit were freely taught to all irrespective of any caste or creed or anything. If sanskrit had followed the same model, it would have the spoken language of India.
Appreciate your sharing.
If the pali canon text is not the same language spoke by the Buddha, is it still the closest thing we have to the actual words of the Buddha?
Thanks leong! Yes, even if the Pāli Canon is not in exactly the same language as that used by the Buddha (about which there is some debate nowadays), it is probably as close as we have to his language. At the very least his would have been a dialect similar to Pāli.
I think Buddha talked more like Kosala language and then they were translated into Pali, which isnt a language which was ever spoken by itself but used as a scholarly language.
Let’s pali and Sanskrit south and Southeast Asia !
If Buddha were alive in this Era, definitely he would ask people, when he dies, to translate his words into as many language as possible. And if so, it is also true that in 2500 years ago, because there were 'foreign languages' already that era too. It's not really debatable topic I think. Now that is different from Christianity of course, because Jesus died before he could attempt to do anything to spread his teaching. What's really debatable is, in that both religion it's still 'on debate' when it's not really meaningful. Like also in Christianity people are not openly leaning Aramaic enough. It's of course related to the 'religious authority's established status'. And that's the real issue.
That's right Art, thanks!
Thank you
You're very welcome!
More Visuddhimagga!
thanks
My pleasure, Babek!
Thanks Doug. A few questions spring to mind on this issue. Is there any monastic community anywhere in the world whose monks normally speak in Pali with each other? Is Pali a dialect of Sanskrit, or the other way around? Is there a modern form of Pali still spoken in India or Nepal? Would Zen Buddhist monks understand written Pali? Is it known if the Buddha taught in any other language? And finally, I am curious to know if you can read and speak Pali. Thanks.
I'm not sure if anyone speaks Pāli anymore. If there were, it would probably be either in Sri Lanka or Burma. Dialects are mutual, basically a dialect is a closely related language that is mutually intelligible to some degree. Sanskrit and Pāli are dialects. In India and Nepal there are a very few people who can speak Sanskrit, but it's like speaking Latin in Italy. It's not a living language, but a ritual one. Zen monks in Japan would know Chinese and Japanese, and maybe a little Sanskrit, but not Pāli. As for me, I can "read at" Pāli, but I'm not proficient in it to any degree.
Pāli has many dravidian words and so much that it is not fair to call it a dialect of Sanskrit. They are distinct languages.
Great discussion. Btw Sanskrit and Pali was more like Latin and vulgar Latin. So a sanskrit scholar can understand Pali, maybe not the other way round
Yes, I've studied both. Pāli is significantly easier to deal with than Sanskrit.
Agree with you. As far I know, Buddha talked in Prakit Magadhi (a local dialect of Sanskrit during his time and place). My young friend, who advised me about meditation, a Bhikkhu is Phd in Pali. He told me some differences in meaning between Pali and Sanskrit. I don't know Pali. I know very very little Sanskrit. In my humble opinion, no language is necessary for any sort of spirituality. Gautam Buddha himself communicated his message to one of his disciples (Maha Kasyapa) through ... hmm ... may I call it "Gesture"! Although, I am very much interested in Buddhism since my childhood but as of now, my religion is "Sanatana Dharma" (people call it Hinduism). Regards
Thanks Sudip! The story about the Buddha's Flower Sermon is actually apocryphal. I discussed it in my video on the history of Zen Buddhism: ruclips.net/video/lRAW-GN4TUA/видео.html
Pali is originated from magadee language , The magadee language is the Sri Lankan original Sinhalese Language
It is what latin is to Christians Hebrew to Jews and arebic to Muslim so I think pali should be still spoken
Sanskrit is new language as it has more features whereas Pali is old language as it has less features.
Sir Budha give more importance to human than any creatures in the world. Even there is no much importance to god in bidhism. Hence calling budhism secular please call it universal secular to all human in world
Indeed so Mana, it is a universal teaching. 🙏
13:27 "don't say that in sanskrit at all" - now this is wrong. This is a reason why you should learn pali and read the original text (lol)
‘‘na, bhikkhave, buddhavacanaṃ chandaso āropetabbaṃ = Oh bhikkhus, Buddha's words should not be said in chandaso.
Now what is chandaso? It is not the sanskrit language. From dictionary: metre, metrics, prosody, esp. applied to the Vedas.
So chandaso is the verse style of sanskrit veda, where there is metrics - how many syllable for each line etc. There is no prohibition at all to translate Buddhist text to sanskrit - as evidenced by many early Buddhist sects that used sanskrit.
Yes, however this expression is usually taken to mean "expressed in the language of the Vedas", e.g., Sanskrit. It most likely did not simply mean "metre" since so much of what has been passed down to us in all of Buddhism is in metre.
@@DougsDharma yes, but it's not merely the language. Chandaso here is the style plus intonation plus standardized language. (words, dialect). Buddha's words are in prose and verses, and if we compare various early Buddhist texts, they are very similar and have almost identical meaning. These two disciples want to standardized it all into verses with specific style, intonation, and words. TheBuddha prohibit that.
But some people do speak sanskrit, and so those people translate the sutta into sanskrit
@@prajnadeva Sure, that's a possible reading. The basic point though is that the Buddha wanted the teachings to remain comprehensible, and not become isolated into a liturgical language accessible only to an elite few.
Are Thanisareos Bhikkhus translations of the suttas considered good translations?
Hi zinakan, Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations aren't bad but they tend to be a bit idiosyncratic sometimes and I personally don't find them as readable as those by Bhikkhu Bodhi or Bhikkhu Sujato. 🙏
@@DougsDharma Thanks for the reply. 👍
More kasinas!
Pali sikhibaku Sanskrit nihati jaruri, one should have good at Sanskrit unless it is confusing.thank you sir.
One should be good at English to make such comments here.
@@neilstegall2090 yes sir
some suttas which translated are found conflicted in the Dhamma principle between sutthas.
When we checked on the Pali then we found that the quality of translation is not be able to convey the 100%meaning or misleading. This may due to the limitation of language and the understanding of the person who translate.
..
.. Some, likes Anuradhasutta, almost 99% misunderstanding
There are a lot more...
...
Buy reading translated suttas will not be able to link or match up the Deeped-Dhamma.
We have to compare and checked with the Pali...
...
..
Any important Pali Word we need to check with the definition given by Buddha, cannot open the dictionary or Pali wording analyzed..
For example, I see someone said " Tathagata also meaning of Being " 👈---this is wrong the meaning goes upside down 180°, this definition of Tathagata has given before by Bhudda is not like the dictionary said,
Any ways, most of the important words are definition given by Bhudda.
The foremost translators now, bhikkhus such as Bodhi, Sujato, Anālayo, and Thanissaro, are careful and well versed in the dhamma. They may disagree on points of translation here and there, but I think by looking at them side by side we can gain a very good knowledge of the early suttas.
@@DougsDharma Agreed that Bhantes are excellent in these.
But Dhamma from Buddha's word is deep in meaning.
We need to analyze by mean of dicussion and using mahāpadesaṃ method then we can believe that is the the Buddha's Dhamma with the right meaning.
Does Pali have its own script or not???
No, Pāli is traditionally written in the local script of each country.
@@DougsDharma Hmmmm...OK...well, thanks for the info.
King Asoka written it in Dhamma script on rock edicts of Asoka. Dhamma lipi is now called Pali prakrit.
In modern Spanish Bárbaro means both barbarian and strange.
I know in Spain it means something more like "incredible" or "amazing" as well as "barbarian".
Didn't Sanskrit means civilised , Sanskrit didn't existed in Buddha time ..
Pali is oldest Indian language with own script.
We don't find any Sanskrit script in stones of Ashoka or anyone. The Sanskrit can't be written in bhrami script..so bhrami is pali oriented.
...
If Vedic sanskrit is older should not we have hindu manuscripts the oldest..but Buddhist & prakrit is old .
So the Vedas are older buddha is just hypothesis? .. bhraminism later arose after buddha..& shaman tradition was dominated India .
Vedic Sanksrit is very old, much predating the Buddha. The Buddha mentions the Vedas many times in the suttas.
@@DougsDharmaPali is an old language as known as archaeological evidence which was practicing from about 300BC (Time of Samrat Ashok) through Samrat(king) Ashok's rock scripture. But Sanskrit has no archaeological evidence. It was came from about 900AD. Sanskrit language just copied from pali.
Then why Vedas cursed the Buddha at many places? @@DougsDharma
Pali is Theravada Buddhist language .
Sanskrit is Mahayana Buddhist language .
I don't think a common person that wants to study and practice buddhism needs to understand Pali. Maybe scholars or gurus? Buddhism is awaken to your true Buddha nature and has to be accessible to everybody. It has to put into actual practice. If someone has to study every documentary or thereotical teachings of buddhism or the language of Pali or Sanskrit, I don't think anybody wants to practice Buddhism. It has to go according to the present time and it has to be effective to help all sentient and insentient beings.
Thank you.
Thanks Michael! 🙏
:(
😆 Yes we need you too! 🙂
The chronology of Buddha, Pali,, Vedas and Sanskrit appears confused.😅
You seem to be merely rationalizing your unwillingness to put in the effort
Perhaps so Jamie, or perhaps it's a question of where best to put in what effort I have.
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คนไทยทำได้ๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆๆ
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u foreigners give so much attention to one language of ours😠, all indian languages since ancient times which are survived or not are equally beautiful, unique and important
Oh for sure. I studied Sanskrit for several years in grad school, FWIW. Though I'm not a linguist nor a philologist, so my main interest is in what the language *says* rather than what it *is*.
Pali was never a real living language. It's a language created specifically for the purpose of preserving teachings.
Yes, this is one possibility, though some leading scholars (notably Richard Gombrich) dispute it.
no we dont
Pali Buddhism cannot go with sciencetist scientists needs reason but Pali Buddhism just based on Buddha said not by reason. Only Sanskrit language can go with scientists because Buddhawhole teaching explain by reason and logic that get only in Sanskrit language,
There is no difference between the scientific or rational status of a sentence in Pāli vs. one in Sanskrit.