Another heartbreaking thing about the way Max reacts to the prank is that THIS is what he thinks being nice looks like. He’s been taught that attempting to scare someone and break them down psychologically will not only make them stronger but show them you care about them.
As a child of a therapist, and someone who's constantly thinking about how characters are influenced by their families, this video scratches me right where I itch.
I think what disturbs me about Max is that fact he went to an Anti-Bullying session and uses it to insult the others… Idk, it was just one line but it still gets me.
Max *knows* that his behaviour and whole stereotyped persona make him the villain in everyone else's story, and he simply doesn't have a problem with that. Although part of the reason he doesn't care about being the "bad guy" is that he feels powerful enough to stop any "good guy" from actually defeating him. I know we shouldn't treat a fourth wall breaking gag too seriously, but I keep thinking about how, when the audience cheers after Cool As I Think I Am, Max tells them to shut up. Like he recognizes that there's a narrative forming where he's the villain and Pete is the hero, and just says "No, we're not doing that. I make the rules here."
Ooooh fuck yeah, that's a good point! Those assemblies are supposed to be tools for him to STOP bullying, but since no one is allowed to control Max and his decisions, he twists what he's told to AID his bullying instead. He's such a horrible person, I love it
reminds me of how people who are emotionally abusive will use therapy-speech to manipulate their victims (tho I think, in general, abusers using therapy speech is also just becoming more and more common due to the growth of common understanding of mental health and all the ways certain terms become trendy, get misused or exploited by marketing teams)
@@Vil.N.Melling Oh, another thought came into mind, mainly with the community. Teachers and parents KNOW Max’s behavior and tried to stop it. But I guess you can’t change something that doesn’t want to (or think they can’t) change. Man this musical has has better world building than most stories.
I think Max's behaviour is a mix of narcissism and machiavellianism. He wants to be admired but he deems himself unlovable which is why admiration is only obtainable by fear in his mind. No one cried or prayed for him in the end, probably not even his dad, because nobody loved him.
This theory brings a whole new meaning to the line "who will pray for me, when I'm gone" as he wants Ritchie to feel that dread that he wishes he was allowed to express. He feels like this is the only way he can do so, through forcing someone elce to feel it. Which would also explain why Ritchies last minute "I'm not a loser" pissed him off so much. 'How dare he have the gall to not be completely enveloped in this fear like I am'
What you said about how he treated Grace could be tied to her final song, in the lines "do you think the time I was chaste was being wasted..?" and "I'm the girl you tought you knew". Also, while she presented herself as one of the nerds to convince the other to join her plan, that last song was the first time she showed that not only she actually saw herself as a nerd, she was also hurt by the high school hierarchy
I've actually thought about the "I'm the girl you thought you knew" line in connection to this! I hadn't thought about these other things, though, but they're really interesting, and they're now making my brain start stewing for my future analyses of each of the nerds...
I would actually kill if you spoke about WHY the nerds pranking him is the nicest thing anybody has ever done for him, as Max says. Steph OUTRIGHT SAYS that it was prank because they dislike him and he somehow completely disregards it. Like if the writers wanted to they could've had him fall through the floors of the waylon home ready to make them pay for it, but the gesture turns him outright FRIENDLY like how he was when he was flirting with Grace. Why????
I suspect it's the first time he's received kindness that he didn't have to earn in some way. Whether through his skill at football or his bullying, in his mind he's always had to earn nice things through being the strongest, the best, the meanest, etc., and he will only have those benefits "until another Richie comes along" and he's replaced. In his experience appreciation and affection can only be transactional, and he believes no one will care about him once he stops being useful to them ("Who will pray for me when I'm gone?"). The nerds' prank wasn't done as a reward for his football wins or out of fear of his bullying, it was done (he thinks) purely because they wanted to do something nice for him. It's interesting, too, that this is the one time we see Max genuinely seem to care about someone else's feelings. He could have just enjoyed the prank as an experience on its own without in any way appreciating the nerds who set it up, but instead he directly praises the nerds, tells them how terrified he was and singles out Ruth's performance as the skele'on. He truly appreciates their effort and he wants them to *know* that. It's not even phrased as 'you have managed to impress the mighty Jagerman', where he expects them to fall over themselves to win his good will - he actually humbles himself to lift them up higher. It subverts our expectations so wonderfully because we expect Max to claim he wasn't scared at all, to insult or attack them, or to threaten them to never tell anyone. Instead we see a teenager excited to think he's finally found real friends who appreciate him for him, and for a moment we think this might be a turning point in Max's life where he learns to become a better person through the power of friendship. And then he falls to his death. It fits with Ruth and Richie's deaths later as well. Richie was finally accepted as part of the team, Ruth realized her theatre dreams could actually come true, and Max thinks he's found people who truly care about him. All three get a brief glimpse of a brighter future, a life they've always wanted but thought they could never have, only to have that dream snatched away by violent death. I believe that's why it took two weeks for ghost Max to show up - he was waiting for the moment his killers were happiest so he could take it away from them. That's also why he took so long to try to kill Steph and Pete, as he was waiting for them to realize they loved each other first so he could torment them even more.
I personally saw it as Max thinking they set up a very elaborate prank to help him face his fears, which would mean they know him well enough to know what his fears are in the first place. But he also could have just been impressed that someone did something elaborate for him essentially unprompted, even if it was mean spirited. He loves being mean spirited, after all. I don't think he'd hold that against anyone lol
I second the above replies, but the "love" he receives from his father comes in the form of mockery (maybe also overt abuse), and I think he genuinely misread it as them trying help him correct his behaviour which they were doing! For their own sakes but they also took time to genuinely think about him, they planned how to lure him there and what to use to scare him. He wants to be God, but why? to be known maybe? Remembered? To feel seen and heard? Maybe he recognised that they recognised he had feelings at all. They saw him as a kid who could be scared, and they treated him as a kid! Not with violence, but with a prank, not even really revenge but to disarm him of his invincible status so he couldn't keep hurting them. And maybe he chose to take it that way, maybe he learned from his father that it hurts less if you don't think about it too much. Maybe he was purposely deluding himself to avoid hurt, highlighting the narrative he preferred to the one more obvious.
Max is absolutely my favorite :33 in the scene where peter said bullies lose their power when stood up to, I was expecting Max to back down, but he didn't!! I love that they didnt portray Max as some ordinary jock, but they actually made him interesting :DD
Yes, that scene feels so important! We're constantly told that bullies will back down if you stand up to them, but I love that Nerdy Prudes didn't hesitate to say that this rarely is the case!
It's much more common for bullies to come about not out of a sense of insecurity, but actually by being extremely confident and self-assured. Obviously there are always going to be some that come from a place of insecurity or jealousy, but more often than not it tends to be that the bully fully believes that they are better than the people they bully, that the things they do is okay to do because THEY are doing it, and anyone who stands up for themselves is questioning the bullies entire view of themselves. Less "Oh no they are standing up to me and treating me like my parents do" and more "How dare this person stand up to me."
Oh, I definitely think this is what's going with Max. His bullying is born from his need for control, but people standing up for him pisses him off because they shouldn't dare defy what he thinks about them
@@Vil.N.Melling Also important to know that this can come from parents coddling a child too much AND from emotional abuse. Max is clearly from the abuse side, but it can happen when a parent loves their child so much as to make them think that they are more special and more important than other kids their age. This is where you get kids throwing violent tantrums when their parents or other adults finally tell them they can't do something they want to do.
@@pirateking56128 it's so interesting to hear about and discuss what different types of parenting can do to a child (especially when you have characters to directly tie it to)
I'm personally a fan of the idea that Max's upbringing gave him CPTSD in addition to his golden child syndrome making very unwilling to try anything new because he's afraid of failure. I think this coincides well with the theory presented in this video, wich I loved.
oh shit this helped me realize or think about the implication that max wouldve gone to the waylon hall regardless of if steph told him there was a party or a bible study going on there because it would be an excuse for him to escape his home life other than school but itd probably be more likely that hed go if it was a party because its the "cool kid thing to do" and what his dad wouldve wanted him to do i do think ur point about max's authentic self shines a bit more during the part when max believes hes alone in the waylon i mean the guy literally flat out admits that hes so fuckin scared of skele'uhns and talks to himself because he thinks nobody who could be a threat to his reputation could hear it wow i feel more media literate already
Oooooh great point! I like to say that you can really tell who a person is by how they act when they're scared, and Max in the Waylon Hall is such a good example of that!
Okay YAY so happy that you did a video on Max, he's as fascinating as he is the worst. Really well-scripted and tightly edited too. You put together a great timeline as to when the bullying even started and gave great insight as to the reasons why he acts the way he does. Only ever briefly heard of golden child syndrome before, but it was super interesting hearing you talk about that (along with your sister too!) Another thing I think that's interesting about Max is this one line he has in Nerdy Prudes Must Die (the song), where he refers to himself as "the jock you demonized." I think that this line, paired with his whole "I thought you guys hated me" line in the old Waylon Place, also gives some fascinating insight into his bullying mentality and how others perceive him. With him starting his bullying crusade around fourth grade as a way to gain a sense of control and to affirm his superiority over others, obviously everyone else started to despise him. And with good reason; he was a literal monster to people for years, even his "friends," up until the present day when he gave Pete a black eye. And yet we have these lines, which make it seem like Max partially perpetuates this behavior because he is hated by his peers. He asserted himself at such a young age to feel good about himself, to gain control, to put people in the boxes that he felt they fit best in, and yet everyone hated him for it (shocker). Wouldn't be surprised with him being such a narcissist that he thinks he's doing everyone a favor. So this becomes a "I do bad onto you because you do bad onto me" type of cycle, even though Max is obviously at fault because he's the one actively making his environment worse and hurting people. It reeks of self justification, and yet he still does what he does because the dude has little emotional maturity, and likely no positive influence to fight or challenge that. Dude sounds like he doesn't even want to be disliked by his peers based on how genuinely happy he was with the prank at the Waylon House, but he literally goes about it in the worst way. Which is on him, obviously, it's all his own ignorance at this point, dude is about to graduate high school (and barely at that). Just sucks that his dad seemingly set his own kid up to fail by making him his own mini-me. And that's not even talking about the mom, either. All this makes me happy that they cut the one scene where his parents were gonna show up alongside Solomon Lauter in the Hatchetfield Action News Broadcast. Apparently according to Nick, his mom and dad woulda shown up then and his dad was going to be "just awful," but there are several other things in the musical that already humanize him that I really don't think we needed a scene like that - even if it would've been cool to see them. We get so much to chew on just from this alone. You did such a fantastic job on this, can't wait to see what else you'll make in the future!! :D
Yay, I'm so happy you enjoyed! Thank you very very much! :D Those are some really good and interesting points! I only briefly thought about the "jock you demonized" line (then I forgot about it entirely, oops), but this little analysis of it is so good! He is SUCH an interesting character! In the notes/first draft of my script, I had a whole part where my sister and I discussed Max's mom, and how she couldn't have been great either, or Max's chances of discovering his golden child syndrome would've risen drastically. On the one hand, the curious part of me would've liked to see that appearance of Max's parents, but on the other hand, I agree with you; it wouldn't have been necessary. I hope to see you around for future analyses! And again, thank you!!!
@@Vil.N.Melling Of course, it's the least that I can say :D And tysm!! Really appreciate hearing that. The brainrot I have from this musical is so strong so I've thought a lot about it LOL. And hey like you said, you can't get to anything because if you did, you'd have like a feature length Max Jagerman documentary. And he really is! The two songs he has (dirty girl doesn't technically count obvs) add so much too it's crazy. And omg that's super interesting. She definitely couldn't have been. Either it's a Zuko ATLA situation where she was incredibly kind and then gets out of the picture early (I know some people HC her as a past Honey Queen winner), or she's still present and enables the situation somehow. You guys were COOKIN with that one 🔥And yea, hopefully in a NMT or something like that we'll see them. Hell yea I plan on sticking around :D And ofc!! Like I said can't wait to see what you do next!
I’ve been WAITING for this analysis, Max is genuinely one of my favorite villains in Starkid, and my ALL TIME FAVORITE character in their shows He showed up, was evil, clearly had more beneath him but that didn’t MATTER. He was who he was because he likes it. He’s deep, but that does NOT make him able or willing to redeem himself or anything Like there’s more, but we didn’t NEED more. All we needed to know was Max was hurt, and he hurts back, and he learned to like it or always liked it. Either way, his past doesn’t excuse his actions and I love that Somehow small joke throwaway lines made for my favorite Starkid character because of how many directions he could’ve gone and what he CHOSE to become. He didn’t have to be a Monster, but he became one anyways. Because it’s fun. And that’s all the reason he needs. Just like it was all the reason his dad needed to hurt him LIKE AUGH UGH GREAT VIDEO AMAZING ANALYSIS IM GONNA BE EATIN THIS UP FOR DAYS
AAAAAH THANK YOU, I'M SO GLAD! The question of whether or not Max deserves a redemption arc is another one which I'm now feeling inspired to dive into...
Oof, parts of this hit so hard! I grew up with a narcisscistic parent. My mother was never popular in high school and wanted to mold me into the pretty, popular girl with all the friends she wanted to be. When I turned out shy and introverted and became Goth, she loudly spoke out against my interests and said multiple derogatory things to me, things that still sting even though I am an adult.
"I am expecting you to be-be-betray me" - Dirty Girl I know it's a . . . sequence. And not actual words from actual Max's mouth, but just something to note. Even if his personality does change a good bit when he's around her. That even Grace Chasity ( one of the most tone deaf and oblivious people in the series ) has noticed Max's issues, so much so that it's notable in her fantasy is . . . I really don't know how to feel about it.
A part of me thinks the entire Dirty Girl scene is almost entirely foreshadowing, and a not-quite-accurate depiction of Max, coming straight from Grace's head. Pretty much nothing of what Grace's dirty-fantasy-Max says (or sings) sounds like something the real Max would say. It's all an idealized version from Grace's mind. It's a Max that loves Jesus, so she can use that as a safety blanket; a Max who's expecting her to betray him, so she doesn't have to get into something real with him; and a Max that's purely an ideal from a very sheltered and naive girl's idea of something that's hot and sexy. It's littered with references and foreshadowing for us in the audience, but I don't know how much of it is "intentional" on Grace's part.
Glad to see this! Max is definitely a super complex character, and while I can't sympathize with him fully, he's still amazingly written and one of my favorites. The part where he says "This is the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me!" I was like.... *ever*? He's so tragic but so so horrible I love it
yay new analysis! you really brought together these different pieces of evidence in the songs and lines in a great way. i'm really liking the concept of "twisted trust" as one of the reasons for max needing control over hatchetfield high. its honestly also a good analysis of how people can act in out of control situations in general. the phrase in the thumbnail really captures it: "Awful Person, Tragic Reason". it kinda makes me sad, i hope there's a hatchetfield where max realizes what's going on and can heal :( great analysis!
I'm so happy to hear you liked it! The whole "twisted trust" thing literally came like a lightbulb moment to me while I was just absent-mindedly thinking about Max, so I'm glad to hear someone else also thinks it's a good theory!
i love this video so much damn. and i wanted to add a little thought i had about his "highschool will be my peak". we established what mr jagerman affects max's life in every way, that he makes max his fucked up copy, and i just realized how insanely tragic it is that max already goes through "i need to do everything my father wants me to do, i think about it constantly and simply cannot allow myself to fail and it literally means more than my life" BUT STILL he'd accepted the idea what there is no future for him after school. he knows how important it is to follow his father's expectations but doesn't consider that he can do that after he graduates. like max literally thinks there is no life for him after, that no matter how hard he tries he will fail to be as important as he was in highshool and his life will be over. max IS afraid of his father and he has no control in his home life, and i'm sure the last thing he wants is to piss off his dad with "uhh so shool is over i'll go get a job in a fastfood restaurant because its all i can do. sorry to disappoint or whatever". i don't think it is an option for a 'golden child' like him and his dad won't take it well. BUT max's grades suck and there's a thing! one of the main character traits he has (and why i love him so much), is that max is actually really brave and stubborn. he would face his biggest fears and give them a fight if it means he won't dissapoint his father. with that personality would he really give up on his future and don't even try to get into a good college to follow his dads wishes? woudn't max try to keep at least a bit of his power over people and carry it to somewhere else (because yeah, there are a ton of adults like max - including his father) and be a god there if it mattered to him that much? max thinks of himself so poorly that he just accepted that there won't be anything for him after school. he gave up. the guy who would fight undead and talk about pissed pants when there are fucking planks of wood going through his chest. i thinks he's so casual about everything that happened to him and his death because he considered it a lot. idk if he thought his father would kill him or max would do it to himself, but max clearly didn't see any other option and that's the most fucked up part of his characher. that's why "it's the nicest thing anyone ever did to me" hits me so hard - max lived and was willing to die with the idea what there's only abuse and hate and fear, but for once in his life nerds made him think otherwise only to make him feel the crushing weight of his "reality" when he died right after. he was expecting this, but both times right before he dies he was fed with the false feeling of being actually needed by someone
Oh this comment is IT! This was so fun and interesting (and then heart-breaking) to read, because you're so right about all of it. Max's character just got even more tragic
Stellar video once more, glad to be subscribed. One thing I would like to add would again be about themes we see across musicals. Ever notice how in Black Friday everyone just stops what they're doing to admire Tom and Becky? It's a weird detail, especially when nobody is mind controlled when it happens. Yet that makes it very important. Nick Lang said this: "Hatchetfield is a small, gossipy town. The kind of place where everyone is in everyone’s business. They’ve all at least heard of Tom & Becky (who, as the Hatchetfield High quarterback & cheer captain, used to be significant figures in the local community)." Most of the people in line probably never even went to Hatchetfield High, yet they know Tom Houston. To the point they know he enlisted in Afghan and has PTSD. Stuff I- personally- don't think he would willingly share. Black Friday shows us how being a star QB is enough to be famous forever. The star player at Hatchetfield High is a town hero. Max shows us the more selfish aspect of that. For four years he gets to be the most important person in his whole world. Every person he knows, every person he could ever see in the town, knows him. Loves him unconditionally. The thought of ever having to give that up is devastating. He lashes out, doing anything he can to stay the sole center of attention. Why does he kill Mayor Lauter and Ms. Tessburger? Because people care about politics, they care about the election, about Mayor Lauter. And that can't stand. Nobody can care about anything except Max. So long as he runs the school, he runs the town. Tom is the exact opposite. Tom never tries to hog the spotlight. He stays in his lane because he knows he's not the only man in Hatchetfield. After high school, life just goes on. The attention, the fame, he lets it go. He doesn't need it. Where Max used his status to further himself, Tom used it to further the community. He uses his position to become a teacher. He helps people who, like Max, need a good father figure in their life. Lex and (likely) Ethan have very hard home lives. They struggle in class and to make ends meet. Yet Tom does everything to help them succeed. He accepts that he was famous once and moves on, because the validation he found in the crowds, he later finds in his family and friends.
Also, complete headcanon but I think Max is related to the Hatchetmen. Jäger means hunter and is kind of like Metzger which is butcher. Maybe the Jägermans are descendants of the Hatchetmen. But unlike the Metzgers, they don't actively maintain the Witchwood Forest. A task that literally makes the Metzgers saviors. The only thing stopping the complete, unimpeded power of the Lords in Black from raining down on Hatchetfield. So Max's dad uses their ancestry to push his ideas of manliness on his son. While also making him feel like he needs to be seen as a Messiah to not be a disappointment to generations of people.
Oh my gosh, this is so good and interesting! You're so right, and it makes everything even cooler. I loved reading this. (And you get a whole new layer to it when you add that what Nick said in the Pit Stop in Hatchetfield livestream: that Tom's the coach of the Nighthawks)
I think what hurts the most is that *I* can relate to max on so many levels. I have done terrible things in my past, and i admit that, i have made efforts to change and grow. I think what made Max most compelling was his lines in the 45 seconds of nerdy prudes must die where he goes on with "Who will pray for me" because i KNOW that emotion that fear that terror of being forgotten and left alone, never being remember for my actions or my life, just simply disappearing. THAT is one of my biggest fears. And for max it HAPPENS, he IS forgotten and everything is BETTER without him. I think there is so so SO much to unpack with him, and it breaks my heart because i see myself in his character so heavily yknow? Anyways I'll get off my soapbox now. Thank you for coming to my ted talk ❤
Not gonna lie Max Jägermen always gave me the vibes of Henry Bowers from the book/film IT. Henry seems like a stereotypical horrible bully but the difference is that he has a abusive and neglectful police father who is willing to embarrass him and assault him in front of his friends which led Henry to be convinced by Pennywise to kill his dad. I watched the musical Nerdy Prudes Must Die twice now and definitely noticed a few things about Max that had me raise an eyebrow. Max has very little depth’s the first watch but after each re-watch of the musical he becomes more and more detailed and thought out. Glad someone made a video talking about it.
I feel like all the things that you said about Max was perfectly accurate, especially the "natural and exaggerated" section. But to me, it seemed like there was actually one person that unintentionally shut down his defenses completely: Grace Chastity. I feel like that when he convinced himself that Grace wanted to "be with him" he also seemed to have a crush (or an obsession, either way goes ig) on her. When he killed Richie, he felt powerful. When he killed Ruth, it was probably just by association. When he's about to kill Pete and Steph, he felt betrayed because Steph had inadvertently caused his death by inviting him to the house and Pete liked Steph, so again, it's by association. But Grace... he was automatically more receptive of her, so he doesn't even think of killing her. And when Grace actually does "confess" that she wanted him, he was shocked that he was correct... until after the deed is done and she admits that it was just to get rid of him. So that event probably hurt the most for Max, not just because he was wrong but it also seemed, in a somewhat effed-up way, that he was lied to by his crush, possibly the one person he had no personal or cliché beef with and the only person he seems to openly show any affection for.
Since Max seems to be an only child it makes sense for him to be both Golden Child and Scapegoat. There's only one of him so he can't really be overlooked, but he's also the only one who can be perfect or fail.
this is awesome!!! such a deep dive into max's character, including some details i hadn't really thought about before. i've been writing my own max analysis video, but focused more on his god complex (and its interaction with whatever grace has going on) and i've been struggling a bit with editing down all my preamble about his other character traits. i might just end up pointing folks to this video for that, it says more than i could ever say!
Even the first minute or so of this video is illuminating. It hadn’t occurred to me until now that “depth”, on the subject of villains, is often used interchangeably with morality/“psychologically injured enough to be sympathetic” in broad discourse when it more accurately means “not shallowly written” the same way “strong” in “strong female character” is often used interchangeably with stoic and physically formidable instead of once again simply “not shallowly written”. Note after finishing video: to add some complication I was sympathetic to Max when we see those clips of him being awkward and vulnerable but that moment where you (paraphrase) say “what comes the point when that exaggerated, harmful affect becomes just *him*” that feels like it clicks everything together; where a lot of mainstream media fails seems to be in handling the cognitive dissonance and recognizing consistent actions as equal or greater weight to what pulls on the heart strings about a character.
You called out so much of my frustration about how words like 'depth' and 'strength' are used for characters in that first paragraph, so I am SO GLAD to have helped with some illumination there! People love to excuse the actions of villains they like because of "what they *could've* been like" but we will be doing none of that here!
I saw someone mention this in a different video, but when he kills ruth, it's clear he knows theatrical terms (like when he asks her to project for the people in the back) and when he bows for ruth as a sign of respect for her skele'on, a possible path for Max could have been theatre work. Which i think would have been an interesting take.
Right from the beginning, I agree with you about the 2 overused types of villains. I will say that both types can be done very well (like the Joker for Type A), but, yes, they are often done poorly these days. I feel like villains either get too much backstory or not enough.
Personally I don't fully believe Max when he says that his motive isn't about revenge. I think it's at least partially about that. Why? Two reasons. One is because, as you pointed out, one of his targets is Steph, specifically because she was the one who lured him to the house. She quote "betrayed him" Two is because we know there are more geeks in this school than Richie, Ruth, Grace and Peter, we've seen them in dance numbers and in the background of other scenes. BUT only the nerds associated with Max's death start popping up dead. That indicates that he at least wanted to START with them before he moved on to the rest of the school.
That was kinda what I was getting at; that Max is NOT killing for revenge that they killed him, but he IS killing for revenge that they stripped him of all his power and control. Since Richie, Ruth, Pete and Steph (and Grace) were the ones who caused his fall from power, they're the ones he wants to kill first.
I loved your last analysis video and this one is just as good. Ever since I heard Max's line about his dad, I had a similar idea to the one you presented in this video. As a fellow StarKid loving nerd who loves to think about the implications and overanalyze their shows, keep up the Lords' (in Black) work.
as a child of a narcissist, this video helped me feel more aware of why my brain hates me so much, and i am hoping that either one of the Langs or Will Branner sees this
It's really nice to recognize pieces of yourself in characters, and to get to relate to them because of that, isn't it, even if it's not necessarily positive traits! If someone from StarKid saw this, I would frickin pass away haha
Thank you for making this video it was very much needed in the world! And I appreciated the discussion of narcissistic parents because I've experienced that as well(I think I'm the 'lost' child too). Something you didn't mention that stands out to me about Max were the words he tells Richie to repeat in the song where he kills him. I feel like he perhaps chose those words because he wanted Richie to feel the same way that he did when he died. "Who will pray for me? When I'm gone? Or until another Richie comes along" Maybe Max had a moment of awareness at the end where his inner feelings of insignificance came out. And he realized that despite everything he's done to try and earn his dad's love and his peers respect, he's always felt alone. At the end no one truly cared for him and no one would ever mourn for him. And at that moment he might've seen himself as disposable, maybe to a certain extent he always did, which is why he had to make others feel disposable instead (until another 'Max' comes along instead of Richie). Of course that could be massively reaching/projecting but that's how I always interpreted that part
Being raised by a narcissist is such an un-talked about topic, I had no clue I had gone through it until my sister did some research. People really do need to talk about it more. I originally was gonna have a whole section about that part of NPMD (the song)! Then the script became 15 pages long without it, so I had to save it for its own future video instead haha. I think that interpretation of those lyrics is really good, and definitely one of the most plausible analyses of it!
I loved your Analysis, so good. I will say I was very much the scapegoat child in my family, and weirdly I see a lot of myself in Max too. Because my big brother was the golden child and I was the scape goat, I tried everything I could to emulate my parents to make them love me. I worked hard to become a star/leader, and I took my anger at my situation out on others. I will admit, I was a bully. I'm not proud of it, it took a lot of therapy for me to improve, but I see Max in a way as that kid who perhaps is trying so hard and is just SEETHING with anger, and because he gets blamed and bullied in his home life, he projects that same treatment on those he deems as lesser in an attempt to have some control in his life. Another thing that made me think and question was how Max saw the prank as a nice thing. A kindness. For someone so afraid to show fear, the fact that the nerds scaring the shit out of him actually made him happy makes me think that perhaps he see's causing fear, trickery, etc to be a twisted form of love language. The Nerds pranking and scaring him was the "Nicest thing anyone has ever done for him." Compared to the people who perhaps did legitimately look up to him as a star quarterback, the other Jocks who bowed to him as leader of the pack, the girls who slept with him, etc. I think that whole moment could be an entire other discussion. Sorry for the huge wall of text. I love Analysis and NPMD so I'm definitely gonna be keeping an eye on more of your videos.
@@Vil.N.Melling so I woke up and had more thoughts. XD mainly about Max saying the prank was a nice thing. I’m now wondering if perhaps that was a fawn response. Throughout that scene we saw him freeze while contemplating what to do, consider flight, and then talking himself into fighting. But when he learned the fear he felt was because of the need he had abused (or fought) in the past, and being outnumbered by them for the first time in the show, he gets super friendly. Specifically complimenting Pete and Ruth who were the monsters. He knew fighting wouldn’t do anything, they were doing this prank even though he’s shown them how physically strong he is, and we know he doesn’t think he can safely run because of his dad, so he starts appeasing the nerds. Also! Why had Max always believed in ghosts and had been afraid of them all his life? And what was he so scared of Skele’ons ? What had he seen!? I love Max. He’s very hateable and his actions are not excusable at all, and yet he’s still an 18 yr old kid who has clearly gone through a rough life
Now you've got me thinking that that was his one and only attempt at fixing his grades, but then PJ (the tutor) gave up on him (at least that's the implication of "then I regarded my future"), so that played a part in why he doesn't try to improve his grades anymore
@@Vil.N.Mellingexactly seeing her give up or stop tutoring him might have made him think(once again going to his dad) that it wasnt worth it and if he showed that he wanted to improve it would make him seem weak to “need” pj to tutor him so he just gave up or made it more difficult for her till she quit
YES here I am!! I have been hoping you’d talk about this!!! Hype hype hype hype!!! Edit: YEAAAAHHHH FUCK YEAH IVE BEEN THINKING THIS PART SO MUCH 16:01 It’s freaking NUTS that he doesn’t even care IN THE MOMENT THAT HES DYING!!! It’s played for laughs but uhhh???? HE SHOULD BE FREAKING THE FUCK OUT! Second Edit: Shit the convo you and your sister have at the end hits home hard, I hope my siblings and I get to have conversations like that when we get a bit older.
I can't even describe the surprise and joy I feel at someone having been hoping I'd make a certain video. THANK YOU SO SO MUCH! "It’s played for laughs but uhhh????" THIS THIS THIS, this happens so much in Hatchetfield. I have a whole video planned about how Hatchetfield uses humor. Crossing my fingers you and your siblings get to have conversations like the one Myx and I had for this video. They really do help a lot :)
@@Vil.N.Melling oh my gosh YESSS ugh yes I’m so excited to hear you discuss the way Hatchetfield uses humour to divert our attentions from how serious a situation is or from “THE IMPLICATIONS!!!!!”
@@Vil.N.Melling I’m foaming at the mouth at the idea of a Lords In Black Deep Dive I’m going to send it to all my friends who are planning on cosplaying them with me
How fascinating! I had never considered the idea that being able to control those around him and their decisions would lead him to feel some sorted twisted trust in them-that because he “knows” what they’re going to do and say, he doesn’t need to worry they’ll hurt him. Love this! Love your channel! Can’t wait to hear more. 😘
Aaaaa I'm so excited about this! I really enjoyed your video on Richie's death and when you said you'd do a Max analysis I was so psyched! Max is one of my favourite NPMD characters so an analysis getting into his abuse (received and displayed) and his character was something I needed to better understand his character. Thanks for the great video! I'll be looking forward to any others in the future :D
Again this video makes me feel like children are done a huge disservice not being taught about the cycle of abuse in schools. Also if you ever did make an hour long video, I’d watch it, and I will watch all five of your Max videos.
I literally said this in the comments and had so many people all started ragging on me, ignoring the fact that I never said he was a good person, I just said I feel bad for him.
That's such an annoying problem with bully characters: unless you specifically say the contrary, people will assume you're justifying them as soon as you try to explain everything
While I wouldn't classify my mom as a narcissistic parent (tho she's definitely got something going on), I can see Golden Child Syndrome applying some to my younger sister. She's the middle child but have much more typical Big Sister Energy than I do bc my autism and adhd made it hard for me to take on that type of responsibility, especially with the large age gaps between all of us (1st child: 1995, 2nd child: 2003, 3rd child: 2012). As a teen I had a hard time being mature enough to sacrifice my own enjoyment to indulge in the needs of a toddler (basically I could make sure nobody died, but I couldn't rly keep them entertained and didn't know how to comfort a crying toddler), so that ended up being put on the middle child instead. And then later in life she's now studying film which is the same field my mom works in and it's clear she puts higher expectations on my sister bc of that but I also think there's more pressure on her in general bc she's the kid who can actually keep a good enough work ethic to hold a job, enough social skills to network and has overall always been "The Good Kid" bc she never threw any tantrums as opposed to me and our baby sister. (we're screamers while she's a soft crier, let's put it that way) Also, from the stories I've heard, this has clearly lead to her becoming The Mom Friend and Designated Driver of her friend group. I feel bad for her but it's also interesting/entertaining to hear about all the teen drama she's had to be an onlooker of since that wasn't anything like my own teen and school experience lol I'm glad both my sister and I are now at an age where we're more on the same wavelength mentally and are actually able to talk about our respective experiences and points of view when it comes to our family. It's been very illuminating and humbling, not to mention validating in regards to feelings around our parents, especially mom. (we're technically half siblings but her dad has been my step dad since I was four and bio dad aint in the picture so it doesn't make much of a difference)
Fantastic video. Also for a idea that they absolutely have not enough supporting evidence for, I kind of hope max's dad is Chad from the friends of professor hidgens. So obviously this theory will continue on the idea that alt timelines have some things be similar but often major moments changing so obviously won't be like workin boys where he is dead by a lightning strike and probably is working some business related job. Here is where the fun thought experiment comes in, what if he got some office job he hates but he can't leave because it pays pretty well (for Max's line of disgust for the poor) and he can't really do anything else. He probably got the job because one of his friends was successful and helped him with the job so now he is stuck. He would then take out frustrations and assert control over max either for his own frustrations or genuinely hoping max does something with his football career because Chad couldn't. Plus with how Chad is used as the default name for the dudebro masculinity idea that max is going for fits. Then add to the parallels of both becoming powerful ghost in certain timelines and possibly being into the same family. Because one of Chad and higggen's friends is named Mark which is also grace chaisty's father and both the same actor. So with there being implied feelings for the group beyond just "best friends" and then max going after the daughter of one of his dad's friends is another parallel. But the ultimate reason, the cuck line, what if Max's dad really wanted Mark but Mark stayed chastised, college ended, and Mark decided to be "normal" by going back to their high school sweetheart Karen. So Max's dad using cuck as a insult (probably a super common one) is because he lost his love and that is how he felt.
The conversation with your sister was really wholesome and heartwarming. I’m really happy she’s on your side and questioning her role in your family dynamic in regards to how it might relate to you and presumably not trying to fill the stereotype. She probably battles the things installed in her, but she’s actively choosing to be better than that. That is a relationship you should cherish.
Something I realised after watching this: max’s control of the school is also demonstrated through his songs. (This is probably going to be long sorry) In literal monster and nerdy prudes must die, the other high school students sing backup vocals supporting max as the main voice. He is the most powerful student there, and everyone else is compelled to support this. (This doesn’t happen in dirty girl but that’s all in grace’s head🤷♀️) this is also shown in the call and response thing he does with Richie - Max is literally forcing Richie to copy him and support him (wait that could be a reflection of max’s relationship with his dad) however, Richie finally has the courage to break free from his control. instead of repeating max’s line (“this is the consequence of what you’ve done”) he instead yells “I’m not a loser,” in an attempt to break the cycle of control. Furthermore (another thing I just realised) the back up vocals in the song nerdy prudes must die is not actually backup vocals for the song Npmd, but rather a call back to cool as I think I am. This might be intended to reflect how the school and its values have changed after max is gone - instead of supporting max the students are essentially singing the “nerd anthem” which is eventually what gives Richie the courage to sing along with them and stand up to max. Hope this actually made sense as I was kind of just writing stuff as it came to my head. Thanks to anyone who bothered to scroll this far. Edit: Also, thanks for making this video, it was really interesting. I love watching analysis videos on stuff I like and there isn’t too much stuff regarding StarKid. Really hope you make some more videos like this 😊😊
This comment had me going "OOOH, YEAH!" several times. Really great observations! I have plans on making lots more videos! StarKid more than deserves analyses of their stuff
Ok. thinking about this a few months later, I actually have more to add to my above essay-comment, in regards to how The vocal composition (I think that’s the right term…) of the songs reflects the school community. High school is killing me is sung by all students together, except Max. the whole concept of high school being horrible is a universal experience from all students except for max, who is at his peak. in the song, Richie and Ruth start it off, with their own verses, as they (the nerds) are the ones who suffer the most at the hands of bullies. Steph does have her own verse as well (despite being one of the popular kids) but I guess that’s more to introduce her as a main character more than anything. 🤷♀️ Literal monster, as I mentioned above, has the separation between max and everyone else supporting him. However there’s really three parts to the song, which reflects the social hierarchy. The nerds make the base melody - just like they make up the base of max’s power. Without them, max has no one to inflict his power upon, and gain respect from other peers. Jason and Kyle’s part of the song is mostly emphasising what max and the nerds say, just building up the message and supporting max. (A reflection of their role in the school.) and of course then max comes in and yells over the top of everyone, establishing himself as the leader. Go go nighthawks changes this - all characters sing the same melody together, with characters such as Richie/ruth and Kyle/jason all getting the their own verses. There is no one singer in the song, and everyone is supporting each other. This reflects how in the absence of Max, the school hierarchy had been flattened, and everyone is on equal ground. Except for Grace, oddly enough. Probably a reflection on how being an outcast was a result of her own actions/decisions, not because of max’s bullying. (I like to imagine grace exists outside of the hierarchy in her own little bubble.)
I love this style of analysis so much! The other channel that I think does this really well is Schnee. And as soon as you mentioned you did Arcane videos too I immediately decided to go through all your other videos :)
This means so much to me; Schnee's my biggest inspiration and the reason I'm even interested in story analysis in the first place. Thank you so so much!
My friend and I watched this together and we were just yelling "THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS WHOLE TIME" throughout the entire thing. Or: you're so right and you should say it louder!! Edit: We're also the biggest Max apologists in the world, so. Thanks for this :)
You mentioned how every one of Max's friends enables his sucky behavior, so now I'm curious... If he had survived, suppose he started hanging out with Stephanie and she called him on his a**hole behavior. Would he have become a better person over time? (Steph's popular, but I never got the vibe that she cowered or TRULY cared what Max wanted, especially with openly talking to Pete and everything. And thinking about how real she was with the nerds, I'd be curious to see if she would do the same to Max, and if that would make a difference.) On the other hand, since we can infer that Max is constantly put down at home, being called on his bad behavior would probably cause him to lash out more. And if he's indeed becoming a narcissist, he's definitely gonna get defensive of what others say are flaws, if he believes the opposite. Unfortunately, I'll never get an answer to any of these questions...
Believe it or not, but that is an EXACT topic Myx and I have discussed (and that I will definitely dive deeper into whenever I make the theorizing video about what would've happened if Max didn't die).
I love looking at character analysis of this musical the day before I’m going to make my friend watch this, 👹 (PLEASE RECOMMEND OTHER VIDEOS FOR ME TO WATCH- I NEED SUSTENANCE)
Heck yeah, make your friend watch it >:D A couple of recommendations of my own: I've got another NPMD analysis, if you're interested and haven't already watched that! Beehive Boy has a really great Max analysis. owlharì's got a really cool analysis/theory about Max. Undeniably Idiotic's video about the entire trilogy is also great as hell.
Ngl, Max makes a couple bible references than the Judas one (like "forbidden fruit" or "breaking bread". I think he secretly goes to church lmao (Did you talk about this? I kinda blanked out while watching this so I don't remember if you mentioned it, if you did I apologize for my dumb comment 😅)
I did not mention it! I know absolutely nothing about religion, having been raised completely without it, so I'm not exactly the right person to talk about that topic about Max, but I do think you're right about him secretly going to church (even if just for it being funny)
I am like the golden child in my family, and when you were talking about how the parents are usally like really controlling and try to live through them I straight up went "Oh shit, that makes everything make so much more sense"
Sorry, rewatched this vid, and had to say I desperately need more max analysis in my life 😭 Youre doing the lords (in Black's) work with your videos. Also I love the way you talk about max. Like yeah, he's a horrible person, but it comes from a place of hurt, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that he's a horrible freaking person. I'd make a video myself (I have too many jäger-thoughts for my own brain) but it would probably just devolve into rambles.
Ahhhh this made me so happy to read! Thank you! The line between explaining someone's actions and excusing them has become so thin, especially on the internet, so I'm so glad to hear I drew it well. Thank you again!
Max Jaagerman is the musical theater equivalent of Clay Puppington from Moral Orel. You’ve made a compelling case, and as a person who spent much of his youth trying to fake himself to find acceptance, I really enjoyed your perspective on MJ. You were right, a few lines can really open things up. Best wishes
sometimes i feel like something could be said about connections drawable between officer bailey and max jagerman. Bailey feels like what jagerman could have become without dying
"I once was his tutor, then i thought of my future" It's a self fulfilling prophecy that he doesn't try to fight. The nerd who says this line doesnt even indicate that anything in particularly happened to make her reconsider. Its likely that she didnt even try out of fear. Even if Max DID want to turn his grades around, who would even help him? Even if he forced someone to help him, the nerds would rather avoid him than risk his attention at all. Kinda like how even the other nerds dont like Grace. Actually, come to think of it, he and Grace seem to have a lot of parallels. Both are golden children who seem to be constantly at risk of disapproval at the slightest misstep. He has to be strong, Grace has to be chaste, and if they slip up? We dont even know what kinds of punishment the Chasitys use, but i doubt they spare the rod.
As someone who has a brother who is at a college on a football scholarship, Max becoming a big football player is unlikely. He’s from a small town in Lake Michigan and is unlikely to be seen by any recruiters. I am from Michigan and seen the competition and you have to better that the best to even be seen. And if you get accepted into a college to play it’s still unlikely you will make it to the NFL. A lot of players major in sports medicine or marketing to stay involved in sports but they don’t play.
Then I'm guessing that's what Max realized as well, and why he tossed that opportunity (or lack thereof) to the side. Thank you for this! As a Swede, things like this are what I'm missing in my understanding of this whole subject, so I appreciate hearing some new information!
I'm pretty sure @Ciarannnnn is right about only the Waylon Place being a place where dead things return, but god, I wish you were right, 'cause I would've loved to think about Richie and Ruth as ghosts
@@Vil.N.Melling just rewatched and yep you're correct, it def would be cool to see a sequel where ruth and or richie helping grace on her own murder spree
I'll definitely talk about her as a part of my nerds analyses video! I gotta make the Lords in Black video first, and then there's a couple ideas I have that I'm more excited about, but hopefully, it shouldn't take too long!
I would still argue he cared they (technically) killed him. There's too much projection in lines like "Who will pray for me when I'm gone...or is this the eternal dark without a dawn" for that not to be the case.. Perhaps, more specifically, he cared about their desecration of his corpse without any consideration that someone in his life might desire a place to come remember him The thing that fascinates me with this musical, though, is the relationship between Max & Grace. Complementary home-life trauma that led them to become very similar monsters in the end. I find it's very easy to picture that had Grace not lost her shit over her "awakening" (5 people dead, a whole town traumatized. It was a mess), they might have turned out to be a good couple for each other, either to the benefit or trauma of the rest of Hatchetfield. Grace, obviously, has an interest in him but Max clearly showed legitimate feelings for her as well: His more natural demeanor comes out when she's around. The numerous biblical references he makes, again including the idea of someone praying for him. While his spirit chased her, he never really threatened her specifically with death despite being the mastermind of the prank that killed him. And then there's the romance short-hand asking her to cuddle after her...gift. Even if he was awful in how he approached it, there was something there that could have veered the musical out of tragedy if the villains weren't so committed to staying in the boxes they made for themselves.
You know what would be hilarious though? is if Max's dad actually never verbally abused max or anything.. But rather, there is a version of Max's dad in Max's mind that did. But Max's dad died (who was a nerdy prude) when max was in the 4th grade, due to clivesdale. like that could even tie back to the whole trust thing, if his dad was a nerdy prude, and as result his dad died. We never do see a Mr. Jagerman as far as I'm aware.
Pffft, that would be pretty funny, especially the part about Clivesdale killing his dad. We never do see Mr. Jägerman in the show, but in an earlier draft, we were supposed to, and the line "Back home so dad can call you a little cuck" makes no sense if there's no dad to go back home to.
@@Vil.N.Melling Well remember there are a number of movies where the MC acts like another character is alive, but that character never existed or is dead. Fight Club, Psycho, Secret Window and so on. I think the line that really breaks my funny idea is "Worth It."
All bullies are hurt, honestly, in real life. For a few years when I was around ten, I - one of my few regrets - bullied my younger sisters. Why? Because my parents abused me and mostly ignored them. I was the scapegoat and it wasn't safe to be angry at my parents so I put the hurt elsewhere. I also had no idea what love looked like, so I thought that them being ignored and me being hurt meant that they were loved and spoiled because they were younger than me. I connected it to being the oldest. My youngest sister is now 14 and has a lot of anger that she lets out on our other sister because she's a safe person to be angry at. I spend a lot of time teaching her coping mechanisms and trying to be a therapist/parent for both of them. Most bullies don't have anyone showing them what love looks like or teaching them. And people know, but they don't care. If you're constantly told you're a horrible person, at first you try to be good to earn the love. Then eventually you give up, because you're going to be treated the same anyway, everyone knows but they don't care, so fuck the world, I'll be horrible then. Speaking from experience - I nearly ended up in a gang and pregnant because of this.
Max loves having power over others, probably because he'll soon have power over no one & nothing. Death only gave him new power. He's such an uncompromising dick and we kinda love him for it. He's not "a bully", he's _"the bully"._
I also think using the last name jägerman, as in jägerminster or a jägerbomb, is interesting as alcohol is a controlling addictive substance. This is probably a basic take but i think it relfects his dad constantly controlling or abusing him. Jägerbombs are also popular shots (i work in bars), but they arent nice to drink - its maxs personality, hes popular through his power but people dont like him, hes not nice. Thank you for listening to my yapping
Max is an asshole but still human. He could have changed despite his own bullshit. However, the fact and where he died will make sure we'll never know what would become of him if he didn't take the fall for the nerds. Furthermore, I have a slight theory that the house corrupted his soul to the point that he became a merciless killer. The place is literally a summoning ground for the lords in black. What do you think is gonna happen when an angry dude dies there with the notion of being murdered by people he underestimated?
![[#2024MAMA] BIGBANG (빅뱅) - 뱅뱅뱅 (BANG BANG BANG) + FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQsYfiPR9uM/mqdefault.jpg)
Another heartbreaking thing about the way Max reacts to the prank is that THIS is what he thinks being nice looks like. He’s been taught that attempting to scare someone and break them down psychologically will not only make them stronger but show them you care about them.
That is a hella good point, and something that I haven't thought about enough!
As a child of a therapist, and someone who's constantly thinking about how characters are influenced by their families, this video scratches me right where I itch.
Always happy to provide such analyses, 'cause HELL YEAH, let's talk about how families affect people
To paraphrase Heather's the musical
"He was just eighteen
He still had room to grow
He could have turned out good
But now we'll never know."
I think what disturbs me about Max is that fact he went to an Anti-Bullying session and uses it to insult the others… Idk, it was just one line but it still gets me.
Max *knows* that his behaviour and whole stereotyped persona make him the villain in everyone else's story, and he simply doesn't have a problem with that. Although part of the reason he doesn't care about being the "bad guy" is that he feels powerful enough to stop any "good guy" from actually defeating him.
I know we shouldn't treat a fourth wall breaking gag too seriously, but I keep thinking about how, when the audience cheers after Cool As I Think I Am, Max tells them to shut up. Like he recognizes that there's a narrative forming where he's the villain and Pete is the hero, and just says "No, we're not doing that. I make the rules here."
Ooooh fuck yeah, that's a good point! Those assemblies are supposed to be tools for him to STOP bullying, but since no one is allowed to control Max and his decisions, he twists what he's told to AID his bullying instead. He's such a horrible person, I love it
reminds me of how people who are emotionally abusive will use therapy-speech to manipulate their victims
(tho I think, in general, abusers using therapy speech is also just becoming more and more common due to the growth of common understanding of mental health and all the ways certain terms become trendy, get misused or exploited by marketing teams)
@@Vil.N.Melling Oh, another thought came into mind, mainly with the community. Teachers and parents KNOW Max’s behavior and tried to stop it. But I guess you can’t change something that doesn’t want to (or think they can’t) change. Man this musical has has better world building than most stories.
@@oliviaspecht6134 Ooooh yeah, that's a good point! It's like another version of Max saying "You can't control what I do"
I think Max's behaviour is a mix of narcissism and machiavellianism. He wants to be admired but he deems himself unlovable which is why admiration is only obtainable by fear in his mind. No one cried or prayed for him in the end, probably not even his dad, because nobody loved him.
Oooooh, that's a great theory! I definitely think you're right
This theory brings a whole new meaning to the line "who will pray for me, when I'm gone" as he wants Ritchie to feel that dread that he wishes he was allowed to express. He feels like this is the only way he can do so, through forcing someone elce to feel it. Which would also explain why Ritchies last minute "I'm not a loser" pissed him off so much.
'How dare he have the gall to not be completely enveloped in this fear like I am'
That's a interesting theory!
What you said about how he treated Grace could be tied to her final song, in the lines "do you think the time I was chaste was being wasted..?" and "I'm the girl you tought you knew". Also, while she presented herself as one of the nerds to convince the other to join her plan, that last song was the first time she showed that not only she actually saw herself as a nerd, she was also hurt by the high school hierarchy
I've actually thought about the "I'm the girl you thought you knew" line in connection to this! I hadn't thought about these other things, though, but they're really interesting, and they're now making my brain start stewing for my future analyses of each of the nerds...
I would actually kill if you spoke about WHY the nerds pranking him is the nicest thing anybody has ever done for him, as Max says. Steph OUTRIGHT SAYS that it was prank because they dislike him and he somehow completely disregards it. Like if the writers wanted to they could've had him fall through the floors of the waylon home ready to make them pay for it, but the gesture turns him outright FRIENDLY like how he was when he was flirting with Grace. Why????
I suspect it's the first time he's received kindness that he didn't have to earn in some way. Whether through his skill at football or his bullying, in his mind he's always had to earn nice things through being the strongest, the best, the meanest, etc., and he will only have those benefits "until another Richie comes along" and he's replaced. In his experience appreciation and affection can only be transactional, and he believes no one will care about him once he stops being useful to them ("Who will pray for me when I'm gone?"). The nerds' prank wasn't done as a reward for his football wins or out of fear of his bullying, it was done (he thinks) purely because they wanted to do something nice for him.
It's interesting, too, that this is the one time we see Max genuinely seem to care about someone else's feelings. He could have just enjoyed the prank as an experience on its own without in any way appreciating the nerds who set it up, but instead he directly praises the nerds, tells them how terrified he was and singles out Ruth's performance as the skele'on. He truly appreciates their effort and he wants them to *know* that. It's not even phrased as 'you have managed to impress the mighty Jagerman', where he expects them to fall over themselves to win his good will - he actually humbles himself to lift them up higher.
It subverts our expectations so wonderfully because we expect Max to claim he wasn't scared at all, to insult or attack them, or to threaten them to never tell anyone. Instead we see a teenager excited to think he's finally found real friends who appreciate him for him, and for a moment we think this might be a turning point in Max's life where he learns to become a better person through the power of friendship. And then he falls to his death.
It fits with Ruth and Richie's deaths later as well. Richie was finally accepted as part of the team, Ruth realized her theatre dreams could actually come true, and Max thinks he's found people who truly care about him. All three get a brief glimpse of a brighter future, a life they've always wanted but thought they could never have, only to have that dream snatched away by violent death. I believe that's why it took two weeks for ghost Max to show up - he was waiting for the moment his killers were happiest so he could take it away from them. That's also why he took so long to try to kill Steph and Pete, as he was waiting for them to realize they loved each other first so he could torment them even more.
I most definitely might talk about this in the "What would've happened if he didn't die?" theory video, 'cause IT'S SO INTERESTING
I personally saw it as Max thinking they set up a very elaborate prank to help him face his fears, which would mean they know him well enough to know what his fears are in the first place.
But he also could have just been impressed that someone did something elaborate for him essentially unprompted, even if it was mean spirited. He loves being mean spirited, after all. I don't think he'd hold that against anyone lol
I second the above replies, but the "love" he receives from his father comes in the form of mockery (maybe also overt abuse), and I think he genuinely misread it as them trying help him correct his behaviour which they were doing! For their own sakes but they also took time to genuinely think about him, they planned how to lure him there and what to use to scare him. He wants to be God, but why? to be known maybe? Remembered? To feel seen and heard? Maybe he recognised that they recognised he had feelings at all. They saw him as a kid who could be scared, and they treated him as a kid! Not with violence, but with a prank, not even really revenge but to disarm him of his invincible status so he couldn't keep hurting them.
And maybe he chose to take it that way, maybe he learned from his father that it hurts less if you don't think about it too much. Maybe he was purposely deluding himself to avoid hurt, highlighting the narrative he preferred to the one more obvious.
Max is absolutely my favorite :33
in the scene where peter said bullies lose their power when stood up to, I was expecting Max to back down, but he didn't!! I love that they didnt portray Max as some ordinary jock, but they actually made him interesting :DD
Yes, that scene feels so important! We're constantly told that bullies will back down if you stand up to them, but I love that Nerdy Prudes didn't hesitate to say that this rarely is the case!
It's much more common for bullies to come about not out of a sense of insecurity, but actually by being extremely confident and self-assured. Obviously there are always going to be some that come from a place of insecurity or jealousy, but more often than not it tends to be that the bully fully believes that they are better than the people they bully, that the things they do is okay to do because THEY are doing it, and anyone who stands up for themselves is questioning the bullies entire view of themselves. Less "Oh no they are standing up to me and treating me like my parents do" and more "How dare this person stand up to me."
Oh, I definitely think this is what's going with Max. His bullying is born from his need for control, but people standing up for him pisses him off because they shouldn't dare defy what he thinks about them
@@Vil.N.Melling Also important to know that this can come from parents coddling a child too much AND from emotional abuse. Max is clearly from the abuse side, but it can happen when a parent loves their child so much as to make them think that they are more special and more important than other kids their age. This is where you get kids throwing violent tantrums when their parents or other adults finally tell them they can't do something they want to do.
@@pirateking56128 it's so interesting to hear about and discuss what different types of parenting can do to a child (especially when you have characters to directly tie it to)
I'm personally a fan of the idea that Max's upbringing gave him CPTSD in addition to his golden child syndrome making very unwilling to try anything new because he's afraid of failure. I think this coincides well with the theory presented in this video, wich I loved.
That's definitely a possibility, and I do believe you're right. It would make a lot of sense
oh shit this helped me realize or think about the implication that max wouldve gone to the waylon hall regardless of if steph told him there was a party or a bible study going on there because it would be an excuse for him to escape his home life other than school but itd probably be more likely that hed go if it was a party because its the "cool kid thing to do" and what his dad wouldve wanted him to do
i do think ur point about max's authentic self shines a bit more during the part when max believes hes alone in the waylon i mean the guy literally flat out admits that hes so fuckin scared of skele'uhns and talks to himself because he thinks nobody who could be a threat to his reputation could hear it
wow i feel more media literate already
Oooooh great point! I like to say that you can really tell who a person is by how they act when they're scared, and Max in the Waylon Hall is such a good example of that!
FUCK YEAH ANOTHER NPMD ANAYLSIS god i wish more people made shit like this because THESE ARE SO COOL. KEEP IT UP OMD
AHHHHH THANK YOU! This fandom has a severe lack of in-depth RUclips analyses, and I am so happy to provide
Okay YAY so happy that you did a video on Max, he's as fascinating as he is the worst. Really well-scripted and tightly edited too. You put together a great timeline as to when the bullying even started and gave great insight as to the reasons why he acts the way he does. Only ever briefly heard of golden child syndrome before, but it was super interesting hearing you talk about that (along with your sister too!)
Another thing I think that's interesting about Max is this one line he has in Nerdy Prudes Must Die (the song), where he refers to himself as "the jock you demonized." I think that this line, paired with his whole "I thought you guys hated me" line in the old Waylon Place, also gives some fascinating insight into his bullying mentality and how others perceive him. With him starting his bullying crusade around fourth grade as a way to gain a sense of control and to affirm his superiority over others, obviously everyone else started to despise him. And with good reason; he was a literal monster to people for years, even his "friends," up until the present day when he gave Pete a black eye.
And yet we have these lines, which make it seem like Max partially perpetuates this behavior because he is hated by his peers. He asserted himself at such a young age to feel good about himself, to gain control, to put people in the boxes that he felt they fit best in, and yet everyone hated him for it (shocker). Wouldn't be surprised with him being such a narcissist that he thinks he's doing everyone a favor. So this becomes a "I do bad onto you because you do bad onto me" type of cycle, even though Max is obviously at fault because he's the one actively making his environment worse and hurting people. It reeks of self justification, and yet he still does what he does because the dude has little emotional maturity, and likely no positive influence to fight or challenge that.
Dude sounds like he doesn't even want to be disliked by his peers based on how genuinely happy he was with the prank at the Waylon House, but he literally goes about it in the worst way. Which is on him, obviously, it's all his own ignorance at this point, dude is about to graduate high school (and barely at that). Just sucks that his dad seemingly set his own kid up to fail by making him his own mini-me. And that's not even talking about the mom, either.
All this makes me happy that they cut the one scene where his parents were gonna show up alongside Solomon Lauter in the Hatchetfield Action News Broadcast. Apparently according to Nick, his mom and dad woulda shown up then and his dad was going to be "just awful," but there are several other things in the musical that already humanize him that I really don't think we needed a scene like that - even if it would've been cool to see them. We get so much to chew on just from this alone.
You did such a fantastic job on this, can't wait to see what else you'll make in the future!! :D
Yay, I'm so happy you enjoyed! Thank you very very much! :D
Those are some really good and interesting points! I only briefly thought about the "jock you demonized" line (then I forgot about it entirely, oops), but this little analysis of it is so good! He is SUCH an interesting character!
In the notes/first draft of my script, I had a whole part where my sister and I discussed Max's mom, and how she couldn't have been great either, or Max's chances of discovering his golden child syndrome would've risen drastically. On the one hand, the curious part of me would've liked to see that appearance of Max's parents, but on the other hand, I agree with you; it wouldn't have been necessary.
I hope to see you around for future analyses! And again, thank you!!!
@@Vil.N.Melling Of course, it's the least that I can say :D
And tysm!! Really appreciate hearing that. The brainrot I have from this musical is so strong so I've thought a lot about it LOL. And hey like you said, you can't get to anything because if you did, you'd have like a feature length Max Jagerman documentary. And he really is! The two songs he has (dirty girl doesn't technically count obvs) add so much too it's crazy.
And omg that's super interesting. She definitely couldn't have been. Either it's a Zuko ATLA situation where she was incredibly kind and then gets out of the picture early (I know some people HC her as a past Honey Queen winner), or she's still present and enables the situation somehow. You guys were COOKIN with that one 🔥And yea, hopefully in a NMT or something like that we'll see them.
Hell yea I plan on sticking around :D And ofc!! Like I said can't wait to see what you do next!
I’ve been WAITING for this analysis, Max is genuinely one of my favorite villains in Starkid, and my ALL TIME FAVORITE character in their shows
He showed up, was evil, clearly had more beneath him but that didn’t MATTER. He was who he was because he likes it. He’s deep, but that does NOT make him able or willing to redeem himself or anything
Like there’s more, but we didn’t NEED more. All we needed to know was Max was hurt, and he hurts back, and he learned to like it or always liked it. Either way, his past doesn’t excuse his actions and I love that
Somehow small joke throwaway lines made for my favorite Starkid character because of how many directions he could’ve gone and what he CHOSE to become. He didn’t have to be a Monster, but he became one anyways.
Because it’s fun. And that’s all the reason he needs. Just like it was all the reason his dad needed to hurt him
LIKE AUGH UGH GREAT VIDEO AMAZING ANALYSIS IM GONNA BE EATIN THIS UP FOR DAYS
AAAAAH THANK YOU, I'M SO GLAD!
The question of whether or not Max deserves a redemption arc is another one which I'm now feeling inspired to dive into...
YES MAX JAGERMAN ANALYSIS LET'S GOOOOOOOOO
HELL YEEEEEAAAAAH!
Oof, parts of this hit so hard! I grew up with a narcisscistic parent. My mother was never popular in high school and wanted to mold me into the pretty, popular girl with all the friends she wanted to be. When I turned out shy and introverted and became Goth, she loudly spoke out against my interests and said multiple derogatory things to me, things that still sting even though I am an adult.
"I am expecting you to be-be-betray me" - Dirty Girl
I know it's a . . . sequence. And not actual words from actual Max's mouth, but just something to note. Even if his personality does change a good bit when he's around her. That even Grace Chasity ( one of the most tone deaf and oblivious people in the series ) has noticed Max's issues, so much so that it's notable in her fantasy is . . . I really don't know how to feel about it.
A part of me thinks the entire Dirty Girl scene is almost entirely foreshadowing, and a not-quite-accurate depiction of Max, coming straight from Grace's head. Pretty much nothing of what Grace's dirty-fantasy-Max says (or sings) sounds like something the real Max would say. It's all an idealized version from Grace's mind. It's a Max that loves Jesus, so she can use that as a safety blanket; a Max who's expecting her to betray him, so she doesn't have to get into something real with him; and a Max that's purely an ideal from a very sheltered and naive girl's idea of something that's hot and sexy. It's littered with references and foreshadowing for us in the audience, but I don't know how much of it is "intentional" on Grace's part.
Glad to see this! Max is definitely a super complex character, and while I can't sympathize with him fully, he's still amazingly written and one of my favorites. The part where he says "This is the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me!" I was like.... *ever*? He's so tragic but so so horrible I love it
YES, I agree so much with all of this!
yay new analysis! you really brought together these different pieces of evidence in the songs and lines in a great way. i'm really liking the concept of "twisted trust" as one of the reasons for max needing control over hatchetfield high. its honestly also a good analysis of how people can act in out of control situations in general.
the phrase in the thumbnail really captures it: "Awful Person, Tragic Reason". it kinda makes me sad, i hope there's a hatchetfield where max realizes what's going on and can heal :(
great analysis!
I'm so happy to hear you liked it! The whole "twisted trust" thing literally came like a lightbulb moment to me while I was just absent-mindedly thinking about Max, so I'm glad to hear someone else also thinks it's a good theory!
i love this video so much damn. and i wanted to add a little thought i had about his "highschool will be my peak". we established what mr jagerman affects max's life in every way, that he makes max his fucked up copy, and i just realized how insanely tragic it is that max already goes through "i need to do everything my father wants me to do, i think about it constantly and simply cannot allow myself to fail and it literally means more than my life" BUT STILL he'd accepted the idea what there is no future for him after school. he knows how important it is to follow his father's expectations but doesn't consider that he can do that after he graduates. like max literally thinks there is no life for him after, that no matter how hard he tries he will fail to be as important as he was in highshool and his life will be over. max IS afraid of his father and he has no control in his home life, and i'm sure the last thing he wants is to piss off his dad with "uhh so shool is over i'll go get a job in a fastfood restaurant because its all i can do. sorry to disappoint or whatever". i don't think it is an option for a 'golden child' like him and his dad won't take it well. BUT max's grades suck and there's a thing! one of the main character traits he has (and why i love him so much), is that max is actually really brave and stubborn. he would face his biggest fears and give them a fight if it means he won't dissapoint his father. with that personality would he really give up on his future and don't even try to get into a good college to follow his dads wishes? woudn't max try to keep at least a bit of his power over people and carry it to somewhere else (because yeah, there are a ton of adults like max - including his father) and be a god there if it mattered to him that much?
max thinks of himself so poorly that he just accepted that there won't be anything for him after school. he gave up. the guy who would fight undead and talk about pissed pants when there are fucking planks of wood going through his chest. i thinks he's so casual about everything that happened to him and his death because he considered it a lot. idk if he thought his father would kill him or max would do it to himself, but max clearly didn't see any other option and that's the most fucked up part of his characher. that's why "it's the nicest thing anyone ever did to me" hits me so hard - max lived and was willing to die with the idea what there's only abuse and hate and fear, but for once in his life nerds made him think otherwise only to make him feel the crushing weight of his "reality" when he died right after. he was expecting this, but both times right before he dies he was fed with the false feeling of being actually needed by someone
Oh this comment is IT! This was so fun and interesting (and then heart-breaking) to read, because you're so right about all of it. Max's character just got even more tragic
fuck yes my problematic bbg gets an analysis /silly
Fuck yeah, let me get those problematic characters analyzed >:D
Stellar video once more, glad to be subscribed. One thing I would like to add would again be about themes we see across musicals.
Ever notice how in Black Friday everyone just stops what they're doing to admire Tom and Becky? It's a weird detail, especially when nobody is mind controlled when it happens. Yet that makes it very important. Nick Lang said this: "Hatchetfield is a small, gossipy town. The kind of place where everyone is in everyone’s business. They’ve all at least heard of Tom & Becky (who, as the Hatchetfield High quarterback & cheer captain, used to be significant figures in the local community)." Most of the people in line probably never even went to Hatchetfield High, yet they know Tom Houston. To the point they know he enlisted in Afghan and has PTSD. Stuff I- personally- don't think he would willingly share. Black Friday shows us how being a star QB is enough to be famous forever.
The star player at Hatchetfield High is a town hero. Max shows us the more selfish aspect of that. For four years he gets to be the most important person in his whole world. Every person he knows, every person he could ever see in the town, knows him. Loves him unconditionally. The thought of ever having to give that up is devastating. He lashes out, doing anything he can to stay the sole center of attention. Why does he kill Mayor Lauter and Ms. Tessburger? Because people care about politics, they care about the election, about Mayor Lauter. And that can't stand. Nobody can care about anything except Max. So long as he runs the school, he runs the town.
Tom is the exact opposite. Tom never tries to hog the spotlight. He stays in his lane because he knows he's not the only man in Hatchetfield. After high school, life just goes on. The attention, the fame, he lets it go. He doesn't need it. Where Max used his status to further himself, Tom used it to further the community. He uses his position to become a teacher. He helps people who, like Max, need a good father figure in their life. Lex and (likely) Ethan have very hard home lives. They struggle in class and to make ends meet. Yet Tom does everything to help them succeed. He accepts that he was famous once and moves on, because the validation he found in the crowds, he later finds in his family and friends.
Also, complete headcanon but I think Max is related to the Hatchetmen. Jäger means hunter and is kind of like Metzger which is butcher. Maybe the Jägermans are descendants of the Hatchetmen. But unlike the Metzgers, they don't actively maintain the Witchwood Forest. A task that literally makes the Metzgers saviors. The only thing stopping the complete, unimpeded power of the Lords in Black from raining down on Hatchetfield. So Max's dad uses their ancestry to push his ideas of manliness on his son. While also making him feel like he needs to be seen as a Messiah to not be a disappointment to generations of people.
Oh my gosh, this is so good and interesting! You're so right, and it makes everything even cooler. I loved reading this.
(And you get a whole new layer to it when you add that what Nick said in the Pit Stop in Hatchetfield livestream: that Tom's the coach of the Nighthawks)
I think what hurts the most is that *I* can relate to max on so many levels. I have done terrible things in my past, and i admit that, i have made efforts to change and grow. I think what made Max most compelling was his lines in the 45 seconds of nerdy prudes must die where he goes on with "Who will pray for me" because i KNOW that emotion that fear that terror of being forgotten and left alone, never being remember for my actions or my life, just simply disappearing. THAT is one of my biggest fears. And for max it HAPPENS, he IS forgotten and everything is BETTER without him. I think there is so so SO much to unpack with him, and it breaks my heart because i see myself in his character so heavily yknow? Anyways I'll get off my soapbox now. Thank you for coming to my ted talk ❤
Not gonna lie Max Jägermen always gave me the vibes of Henry Bowers from the book/film IT. Henry seems like a stereotypical horrible bully but the difference is that he has a abusive and neglectful police father who is willing to embarrass him and assault him in front of his friends which led Henry to be convinced by Pennywise to kill his dad. I watched the musical Nerdy Prudes Must Die twice now and definitely noticed a few things about Max that had me raise an eyebrow. Max has very little depth’s the first watch but after each re-watch of the musical he becomes more and more detailed and thought out. Glad someone made a video talking about it.
I've never read or seen IT, but there do seem to be some similarities there, indeed!
I'm glad you enjoyed, thank you!
@@Vil.N.Melling Damn man I totes recommend the watch or read if you find the time. Ya don’t gotta but it got some great characters.
A stereotype can still have depth…even if it isn’t too deep
Precisely!
@@Vil.N.Melling 🙂
I feel like all the things that you said about Max was perfectly accurate, especially the "natural and exaggerated" section. But to me, it seemed like there was actually one person that unintentionally shut down his defenses completely: Grace Chastity. I feel like that when he convinced himself that Grace wanted to "be with him" he also seemed to have a crush (or an obsession, either way goes ig) on her.
When he killed Richie, he felt powerful. When he killed Ruth, it was probably just by association. When he's about to kill Pete and Steph, he felt betrayed because Steph had inadvertently caused his death by inviting him to the house and Pete liked Steph, so again, it's by association. But Grace... he was automatically more receptive of her, so he doesn't even think of killing her.
And when Grace actually does "confess" that she wanted him, he was shocked that he was correct... until after the deed is done and she admits that it was just to get rid of him. So that event probably hurt the most for Max, not just because he was wrong but it also seemed, in a somewhat effed-up way, that he was lied to by his crush, possibly the one person he had no personal or cliché beef with and the only person he seems to openly show any affection for.
Since Max seems to be an only child it makes sense for him to be both Golden Child and Scapegoat. There's only one of him so he can't really be overlooked, but he's also the only one who can be perfect or fail.
this is awesome!!! such a deep dive into max's character, including some details i hadn't really thought about before. i've been writing my own max analysis video, but focused more on his god complex (and its interaction with whatever grace has going on) and i've been struggling a bit with editing down all my preamble about his other character traits. i might just end up pointing folks to this video for that, it says more than i could ever say!
Oooh, if you ever do make that Max analysis video, I would love to watch it!
Even the first minute or so of this video is illuminating. It hadn’t occurred to me until now that “depth”, on the subject of villains, is often used interchangeably with morality/“psychologically injured enough to be sympathetic” in broad discourse when it more accurately means “not shallowly written” the same way “strong” in “strong female character” is often used interchangeably with stoic and physically formidable instead of once again simply “not shallowly written”.
Note after finishing video: to add some complication I was sympathetic to Max when we see those clips of him being awkward and vulnerable but that moment where you (paraphrase) say “what comes the point when that exaggerated, harmful affect becomes just *him*” that feels like it clicks everything together; where a lot of mainstream media fails seems to be in handling the cognitive dissonance and recognizing consistent actions as equal or greater weight to what pulls on the heart strings about a character.
You called out so much of my frustration about how words like 'depth' and 'strength' are used for characters in that first paragraph, so I am SO GLAD to have helped with some illumination there!
People love to excuse the actions of villains they like because of "what they *could've* been like" but we will be doing none of that here!
I saw someone mention this in a different video, but when he kills ruth, it's clear he knows theatrical terms (like when he asks her to project for the people in the back) and when he bows for ruth as a sign of respect for her skele'on, a possible path for Max could have been theatre work. Which i think would have been an interesting take.
Oooooh, that could've been interesting and funny! Theater kid Max, a "nerd in disguise"
Right from the beginning, I agree with you about the 2 overused types of villains.
I will say that both types can be done very well (like the Joker for Type A), but, yes, they are often done poorly these days. I feel like villains either get too much backstory or not enough.
Personally I don't fully believe Max when he says that his motive isn't about revenge. I think it's at least partially about that. Why? Two reasons. One is because, as you pointed out, one of his targets is Steph, specifically because she was the one who lured him to the house. She quote "betrayed him" Two is because we know there are more geeks in this school than Richie, Ruth, Grace and Peter, we've seen them in dance numbers and in the background of other scenes. BUT only the nerds associated with Max's death start popping up dead. That indicates that he at least wanted to START with them before he moved on to the rest of the school.
That was kinda what I was getting at; that Max is NOT killing for revenge that they killed him, but he IS killing for revenge that they stripped him of all his power and control. Since Richie, Ruth, Pete and Steph (and Grace) were the ones who caused his fall from power, they're the ones he wants to kill first.
I loved your last analysis video and this one is just as good. Ever since I heard Max's line about his dad, I had a similar idea to the one you presented in this video. As a fellow StarKid loving nerd who loves to think about the implications and overanalyze their shows, keep up the Lords' (in Black) work.
So glad to hear you enjoyed, thank you so much! To thinking about every little implication!
as a child of a narcissist, this video helped me feel more aware of why my brain hates me so much, and i am hoping that either one of the Langs or Will Branner sees this
It's really nice to recognize pieces of yourself in characters, and to get to relate to them because of that, isn't it, even if it's not necessarily positive traits! If someone from StarKid saw this, I would frickin pass away haha
@@Vil.N.Melling honestly fair
Thank you for making this video it was very much needed in the world! And I appreciated the discussion of narcissistic parents because I've experienced that as well(I think I'm the 'lost' child too).
Something you didn't mention that stands out to me about Max were the words he tells Richie to repeat in the song where he kills him. I feel like he perhaps chose those words because he wanted Richie to feel the same way that he did when he died. "Who will pray for me? When I'm gone? Or until another Richie comes along" Maybe Max had a moment of awareness at the end where his inner feelings of insignificance came out. And he realized that despite everything he's done to try and earn his dad's love and his peers respect, he's always felt alone. At the end no one truly cared for him and no one would ever mourn for him. And at that moment he might've seen himself as disposable, maybe to a certain extent he always did, which is why he had to make others feel disposable instead (until another 'Max' comes along instead of Richie). Of course that could be massively reaching/projecting but that's how I always interpreted that part
Being raised by a narcissist is such an un-talked about topic, I had no clue I had gone through it until my sister did some research. People really do need to talk about it more.
I originally was gonna have a whole section about that part of NPMD (the song)! Then the script became 15 pages long without it, so I had to save it for its own future video instead haha. I think that interpretation of those lyrics is really good, and definitely one of the most plausible analyses of it!
I loved your Analysis, so good. I will say I was very much the scapegoat child in my family, and weirdly I see a lot of myself in Max too. Because my big brother was the golden child and I was the scape goat, I tried everything I could to emulate my parents to make them love me. I worked hard to become a star/leader, and I took my anger at my situation out on others. I will admit, I was a bully. I'm not proud of it, it took a lot of therapy for me to improve, but I see Max in a way as that kid who perhaps is trying so hard and is just SEETHING with anger, and because he gets blamed and bullied in his home life, he projects that same treatment on those he deems as lesser in an attempt to have some control in his life.
Another thing that made me think and question was how Max saw the prank as a nice thing. A kindness. For someone so afraid to show fear, the fact that the nerds scaring the shit out of him actually made him happy makes me think that perhaps he see's causing fear, trickery, etc to be a twisted form of love language. The Nerds pranking and scaring him was the "Nicest thing anyone has ever done for him." Compared to the people who perhaps did legitimately look up to him as a star quarterback, the other Jocks who bowed to him as leader of the pack, the girls who slept with him, etc. I think that whole moment could be an entire other discussion.
Sorry for the huge wall of text. I love Analysis and NPMD so I'm definitely gonna be keeping an eye on more of your videos.
I loved this huge wall of text, I think it's so interesting to read other people's perspectives, and yours really made me think! Thank you so much!
@@Vil.N.Melling so I woke up and had more thoughts. XD mainly about Max saying the prank was a nice thing. I’m now wondering if perhaps that was a fawn response. Throughout that scene we saw him freeze while contemplating what to do, consider flight, and then talking himself into fighting. But when he learned the fear he felt was because of the need he had abused (or fought) in the past, and being outnumbered by them for the first time in the show, he gets super friendly. Specifically complimenting Pete and Ruth who were the monsters. He knew fighting wouldn’t do anything, they were doing this prank even though he’s shown them how physically strong he is, and we know he doesn’t think he can safely run because of his dad, so he starts appeasing the nerds.
Also! Why had Max always believed in ghosts and had been afraid of them all his life? And what was he so scared of Skele’ons ? What had he seen!?
I love Max. He’s very hateable and his actions are not excusable at all, and yet he’s still an 18 yr old kid who has clearly gone through a rough life
@@ThistleLP Oooooh, that's an interesting theory! That could be something
Maybe that’s why he got a tutor to “try” and when it got hard he decided he didn’t care anymore ? Unless it was forced by the school
Now you've got me thinking that that was his one and only attempt at fixing his grades, but then PJ (the tutor) gave up on him (at least that's the implication of "then I regarded my future"), so that played a part in why he doesn't try to improve his grades anymore
@@Vil.N.Mellingexactly seeing her give up or stop tutoring him might have made him think(once again going to his dad) that it wasnt worth it and if he showed that he wanted to improve it would make him seem weak to “need” pj to tutor him so he just gave up or made it more difficult for her till she quit
@@Doodleann711 I think we're onto something here
@@Vil.N.Melling >:) yesss
YES here I am!! I have been hoping you’d talk about this!!! Hype hype hype hype!!!
Edit:
YEAAAAHHHH FUCK YEAH IVE BEEN THINKING THIS PART SO MUCH 16:01
It’s freaking NUTS that he doesn’t even care IN THE MOMENT THAT HES DYING!!! It’s played for laughs but uhhh???? HE SHOULD BE FREAKING THE FUCK OUT!
Second Edit:
Shit the convo you and your sister have at the end hits home hard, I hope my siblings and I get to have conversations like that when we get a bit older.
I can't even describe the surprise and joy I feel at someone having been hoping I'd make a certain video. THANK YOU SO SO MUCH!
"It’s played for laughs but uhhh????" THIS THIS THIS, this happens so much in Hatchetfield. I have a whole video planned about how Hatchetfield uses humor.
Crossing my fingers you and your siblings get to have conversations like the one Myx and I had for this video. They really do help a lot :)
@@Vil.N.Melling oh my gosh YESSS ugh yes I’m so excited to hear you discuss the way Hatchetfield uses humour to divert our attentions from how serious a situation is or from “THE IMPLICATIONS!!!!!”
@@TroublingZeal This comment's just boosted my motivation for that one. It honestly might become priority 1 to make after my Lords in Black deep dive
@@Vil.N.Melling I’m foaming at the mouth at the idea of a Lords In Black Deep Dive I’m going to send it to all my friends who are planning on cosplaying them with me
How fascinating! I had never considered the idea that being able to control those around him and their decisions would lead him to feel some sorted twisted trust in them-that because he “knows” what they’re going to do and say, he doesn’t need to worry they’ll hurt him.
Love this! Love your channel! Can’t wait to hear more. 😘
I'm really glad you enjoyed! I love exploring ideas people might not think of at first.
Thank you so much!!
Another amazing analysis, can't wait for more in the future
Thank you so so much! It makes me so happy to hear you're excited for more!
Aaaaa I'm so excited about this! I really enjoyed your video on Richie's death and when you said you'd do a Max analysis I was so psyched! Max is one of my favourite NPMD characters so an analysis getting into his abuse (received and displayed) and his character was something I needed to better understand his character.
Thanks for the great video! I'll be looking forward to any others in the future :D
Yay, I'm so happy you enjoyed, thank you so much!
Again this video makes me feel like children are done a huge disservice not being taught about the cycle of abuse in schools. Also if you ever did make an hour long video, I’d watch it, and I will watch all five of your Max videos.
That is SO TRUE!
That makes me so so happy to hear, thank you so much!
1:48 missed an opportunity to say "after he died, well... he was a literal monster."
Aw damnit, you're right!
I literally said this in the comments and had so many people all started ragging on me, ignoring the fact that I never said he was a good person, I just said I feel bad for him.
That's such an annoying problem with bully characters: unless you specifically say the contrary, people will assume you're justifying them as soon as you try to explain everything
HALF A DAMN HOUR?? Oh we are feasting y’all 🙏
I cooked up a feast!
i'd be interested in any of the 5 videos you listed, but especially 4 and 5. Great work with this and the Richie video!
Thank you so much! :D
I think the fourth idea is the one I'm most interested in myself!
While I wouldn't classify my mom as a narcissistic parent (tho she's definitely got something going on), I can see Golden Child Syndrome applying some to my younger sister. She's the middle child but have much more typical Big Sister Energy than I do bc my autism and adhd made it hard for me to take on that type of responsibility, especially with the large age gaps between all of us (1st child: 1995, 2nd child: 2003, 3rd child: 2012).
As a teen I had a hard time being mature enough to sacrifice my own enjoyment to indulge in the needs of a toddler (basically I could make sure nobody died, but I couldn't rly keep them entertained and didn't know how to comfort a crying toddler), so that ended up being put on the middle child instead.
And then later in life she's now studying film which is the same field my mom works in and it's clear she puts higher expectations on my sister bc of that but I also think there's more pressure on her in general bc she's the kid who can actually keep a good enough work ethic to hold a job, enough social skills to network and has overall always been "The Good Kid" bc she never threw any tantrums as opposed to me and our baby sister. (we're screamers while she's a soft crier, let's put it that way)
Also, from the stories I've heard, this has clearly lead to her becoming The Mom Friend and Designated Driver of her friend group. I feel bad for her but it's also interesting/entertaining to hear about all the teen drama she's had to be an onlooker of since that wasn't anything like my own teen and school experience lol
I'm glad both my sister and I are now at an age where we're more on the same wavelength mentally and are actually able to talk about our respective experiences and points of view when it comes to our family. It's been very illuminating and humbling, not to mention validating in regards to feelings around our parents, especially mom.
(we're technically half siblings but her dad has been my step dad since I was four and bio dad aint in the picture so it doesn't make much of a difference)
It's so good to be able to talk about stuff like this with people who understand :)
Fantastic video. Also for a idea that they absolutely have not enough supporting evidence for, I kind of hope max's dad is Chad from the friends of professor hidgens. So obviously this theory will continue on the idea that alt timelines have some things be similar but often major moments changing so obviously won't be like workin boys where he is dead by a lightning strike and probably is working some business related job. Here is where the fun thought experiment comes in, what if he got some office job he hates but he can't leave because it pays pretty well (for Max's line of disgust for the poor) and he can't really do anything else. He probably got the job because one of his friends was successful and helped him with the job so now he is stuck. He would then take out frustrations and assert control over max either for his own frustrations or genuinely hoping max does something with his football career because Chad couldn't. Plus with how Chad is used as the default name for the dudebro masculinity idea that max is going for fits. Then add to the parallels of both becoming powerful ghost in certain timelines and possibly being into the same family. Because one of Chad and higggen's friends is named Mark which is also grace chaisty's father and both the same actor. So with there being implied feelings for the group beyond just "best friends" and then max going after the daughter of one of his dad's friends is another parallel. But the ultimate reason, the cuck line, what if Max's dad really wanted Mark but Mark stayed chastised, college ended, and Mark decided to be "normal" by going back to their high school sweetheart Karen. So Max's dad using cuck as a insult (probably a super common one) is because he lost his love and that is how he felt.
That's quite an interesting theory! I don't think the ages quite add up, but fun nonetheless!
your interpretations are my headcannons keep feeding me
This made me laugh, so you've got it, I will keep on serving up interpretations!
WOOO Ive been waiting for this video! and you know what? it was FUCKING WORTH IT! GOOO NIGHTHAAAAAWKS!!!
AYYYY! Very glad it was worth it! GO GO NIGHTHAWKS!
The conversation with your sister was really wholesome and heartwarming. I’m really happy she’s on your side and questioning her role in your family dynamic in regards to how it might relate to you and presumably not trying to fill the stereotype. She probably battles the things installed in her, but she’s actively choosing to be better than that. That is a relationship you should cherish.
Something I realised after watching this: max’s control of the school is also demonstrated through his songs.
(This is probably going to be long sorry)
In literal monster and nerdy prudes must die, the other high school students sing backup vocals supporting max as the main voice. He is the most powerful student there, and everyone else is compelled to support this. (This doesn’t happen in dirty girl but that’s all in grace’s head🤷♀️) this is also shown in the call and response thing he does with Richie - Max is literally forcing Richie to copy him and support him (wait that could be a reflection of max’s relationship with his dad) however, Richie finally has the courage to break free from his control. instead of repeating max’s line (“this is the consequence of what you’ve done”) he instead yells “I’m not a loser,” in an attempt to break the cycle of control. Furthermore (another thing I just realised) the back up vocals in the song nerdy prudes must die is not actually backup vocals for the song Npmd, but rather a call back to cool as I think I am. This might be intended to reflect how the school and its values have changed after max is gone - instead of supporting max the students are essentially singing the “nerd anthem” which is eventually what gives Richie the courage to sing along with them and stand up to max.
Hope this actually made sense as I was kind of just writing stuff as it came to my head.
Thanks to anyone who bothered to scroll this far.
Edit: Also, thanks for making this video, it was really interesting. I love watching analysis videos on stuff I like and there isn’t too much stuff regarding StarKid. Really hope you make some more videos like this 😊😊
This comment had me going "OOOH, YEAH!" several times. Really great observations!
I have plans on making lots more videos! StarKid more than deserves analyses of their stuff
@@Vil.N.Melling thanks so much! 😊look forward to seeing your future content!
Ok. thinking about this a few months later, I actually have more to add to my above essay-comment, in regards to how The vocal composition (I think that’s the right term…) of the songs reflects the school community.
High school is killing me is sung by all students together, except Max. the whole concept of high school being horrible is a universal experience from all students except for max, who is at his peak. in the song, Richie and Ruth start it off, with their own verses, as they (the nerds) are the ones who suffer the most at the hands of bullies. Steph does have her own verse as well (despite being one of the popular kids) but I guess that’s more to introduce her as a main character more than anything. 🤷♀️
Literal monster, as I mentioned above, has the separation between max and everyone else supporting him. However there’s really three parts to the song, which reflects the social hierarchy. The nerds make the base melody - just like they make up the base of max’s power. Without them, max has no one to inflict his power upon, and gain respect from other peers. Jason and Kyle’s part of the song is mostly emphasising what max and the nerds say, just building up the message and supporting max. (A reflection of their role in the school.) and of course then max comes in and yells over the top of everyone, establishing himself as the leader.
Go go nighthawks changes this - all characters sing the same melody together, with characters such as Richie/ruth and Kyle/jason all getting the their own verses. There is no one singer in the song, and everyone is supporting each other. This reflects how in the absence of Max, the school hierarchy had been flattened, and everyone is on equal ground. Except for Grace, oddly enough. Probably a reflection on how being an outcast was a result of her own actions/decisions, not because of max’s bullying. (I like to imagine grace exists outside of the hierarchy in her own little bubble.)
I love this style of analysis so much! The other channel that I think does this really well is Schnee. And as soon as you mentioned you did Arcane videos too I immediately decided to go through all your other videos :)
This means so much to me; Schnee's my biggest inspiration and the reason I'm even interested in story analysis in the first place. Thank you so so much!
He’s bad for the fun of it because of a tragic event but still doesn’t get us to sympathize for him
True 😊
My friend and I watched this together and we were just yelling "THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS WHOLE TIME" throughout the entire thing. Or: you're so right and you should say it louder!!
Edit: We're also the biggest Max apologists in the world, so. Thanks for this :)
This put such a big grin on my face, thank you so much! I'm so glad you and your friend enjoyed!
nice i was waiting for this.
The fact that people have been waiting for a video of mine is so mind-blowing to me, thank you so so so much!!
You mentioned how every one of Max's friends enables his sucky behavior, so now I'm curious... If he had survived, suppose he started hanging out with Stephanie and she called him on his a**hole behavior. Would he have become a better person over time?
(Steph's popular, but I never got the vibe that she cowered or TRULY cared what Max wanted, especially with openly talking to Pete and everything. And thinking about how real she was with the nerds, I'd be curious to see if she would do the same to Max, and if that would make a difference.)
On the other hand, since we can infer that Max is constantly put down at home, being called on his bad behavior would probably cause him to lash out more. And if he's indeed becoming a narcissist, he's definitely gonna get defensive of what others say are flaws, if he believes the opposite.
Unfortunately, I'll never get an answer to any of these questions...
Believe it or not, but that is an EXACT topic Myx and I have discussed (and that I will definitely dive deeper into whenever I make the theorizing video about what would've happened if Max didn't die).
This is really great. You covered everything I'd been thinking about Max since I first watched the show.
I'm so glad! Thank you! :D
These are AMAZING please keep them coming 😍
You bet I will! Thank youuuuu!!!
Yippieee been waiting for this!!
Aaaaah I'm so glad to hear that! Thank youuu!
AMAZING analysis!!!!
THANK YOU!!!
Yes! This! I want more starkid analysis on my recommendations, i don't see this enough
I love looking at character analysis of this musical the day before I’m going to make my friend watch this, 👹
(PLEASE RECOMMEND OTHER VIDEOS FOR ME TO WATCH- I NEED SUSTENANCE)
Heck yeah, make your friend watch it >:D
A couple of recommendations of my own:
I've got another NPMD analysis, if you're interested and haven't already watched that!
Beehive Boy has a really great Max analysis.
owlharì's got a really cool analysis/theory about Max.
Undeniably Idiotic's video about the entire trilogy is also great as hell.
Ngl, Max makes a couple bible references than the Judas one (like "forbidden fruit" or "breaking bread". I think he secretly goes to church lmao
(Did you talk about this? I kinda blanked out while watching this so I don't remember if you mentioned it, if you did I apologize for my dumb comment 😅)
I did not mention it! I know absolutely nothing about religion, having been raised completely without it, so I'm not exactly the right person to talk about that topic about Max, but I do think you're right about him secretly going to church (even if just for it being funny)
I am like the golden child in my family, and when you were talking about how the parents are usally like really controlling and try to live through them I straight up went "Oh shit, that makes everything make so much more sense"
YESYESYEYSY ABOUT TO WATCH THIS I LOVE ANALASYS OF CHARACTERS I LOVE THANK YOUUU
AAAAAAH THANK YOUUUU!!!
Omg a half an hour analysis on my favourite silly evil jock yum
I am very happy to provide B)
30 minutes Max Jagerman analysis?? Hell yeah sign me up
It turned out longer than I thought it would, and honestly, I'm happy about that, because long analysis videos have always been my fav
@@Vil.N.Melling No problem at all, and I'm glad you enjoyed making this!! I love them too :)
oh my god Im so excited for this video!
Ahhh that makes me so happy! Thank youu!!!
Sorry, rewatched this vid, and had to say I desperately need more max analysis in my life 😭 Youre doing the lords (in Black's) work with your videos. Also I love the way you talk about max. Like yeah, he's a horrible person, but it comes from a place of hurt, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that he's a horrible freaking person. I'd make a video myself (I have too many jäger-thoughts for my own brain) but it would probably just devolve into rambles.
Ahhhh this made me so happy to read! Thank you!
The line between explaining someone's actions and excusing them has become so thin, especially on the internet, so I'm so glad to hear I drew it well. Thank you again!
Max Jaagerman is the musical theater equivalent of Clay Puppington from Moral Orel. You’ve made a compelling case, and as a person who spent much of his youth trying to fake himself to find acceptance, I really enjoyed your perspective on MJ. You were right, a few lines can really open things up. Best wishes
Incredible video, please continue to make more! ❤
Thank you so much! :D
You have my word that I'll continue!
yippee!! i missed this yesterday :( but i'm here!
IT'S AMAZING!!
THANK YOU!!! So glad you liked it!
sometimes i feel like something could be said about connections drawable between officer bailey and max jagerman. Bailey feels like what jagerman could have become without dying
I won't lie, i've been desperate for someone to do this _exact_ video ever since I saw NPMD, so let's just say i'm eating good with this video
(Also, in my family, I was the Scapegoat)
I'm very very happy to provide! Thank you!!
I could write 10+ pages on Max Jagerman
Honestly same, you could probably write like 50 pages worth of content about this guy, the things he does and the implications in the things he says
Yes keep Overanalyzing for the fandom for GOD!!!
HELL YEAH! I will GLADLY keep diving too deep into every single little implication
8:30 you should make a video thats just you talking about this musical!
THIS IS LITERALLY INCREDIBLE!!!
"I once was his tutor, then i thought of my future" It's a self fulfilling prophecy that he doesn't try to fight. The nerd who says this line doesnt even indicate that anything in particularly happened to make her reconsider. Its likely that she didnt even try out of fear. Even if Max DID want to turn his grades around, who would even help him? Even if he forced someone to help him, the nerds would rather avoid him than risk his attention at all. Kinda like how even the other nerds dont like Grace.
Actually, come to think of it, he and Grace seem to have a lot of parallels. Both are golden children who seem to be constantly at risk of disapproval at the slightest misstep. He has to be strong, Grace has to be chaste, and if they slip up? We dont even know what kinds of punishment the Chasitys use, but i doubt they spare the rod.
Great analysis, also loved the little face reveal at the beginning lol
damn it now i have to write chapter 4 of my fanfic
Hell yeah, go write!
@@Vil.N.Melling dang it
I love your analysis videos I need one for the Lords in Black pleeeeeeeeease
That one's next up! I'm about to start rewatching all the LiB episodes of Nightmare Time to complete my mess of notes before I write the script!
@@Vil.N.Melling omg I'm so excited!!!
YESSSSSSS🎉🎉🎉🎉
FUCK YESSSS!!!
As someone who has a brother who is at a college on a football scholarship, Max becoming a big football player is unlikely. He’s from a small town in Lake Michigan and is unlikely to be seen by any recruiters. I am from Michigan and seen the competition and you have to better that the best to even be seen. And if you get accepted into a college to play it’s still unlikely you will make it to the NFL. A lot of players major in sports medicine or marketing to stay involved in sports but they don’t play.
Then I'm guessing that's what Max realized as well, and why he tossed that opportunity (or lack thereof) to the side.
Thank you for this! As a Swede, things like this are what I'm missing in my understanding of this whole subject, so I appreciate hearing some new information!
so i dont know if anyone realized this but richie and ruth arent fully dead because they were killed at hatchet field high
Yepyepyep
I thought it was a spell that was only put on the Waylon Place and the alters were just places a summoning could happen
I'm pretty sure @Ciarannnnn is right about only the Waylon Place being a place where dead things return, but god, I wish you were right, 'cause I would've loved to think about Richie and Ruth as ghosts
@@Vil.N.Melling just rewatched and yep you're correct, it def would be cool to see a sequel where ruth and or richie helping grace on her own murder spree
Please talk about Grace next! She's sorta an anomoly as a loser who doesn't quite fit with the nerds, yet also moves the plot forward
I'll definitely talk about her as a part of my nerds analyses video! I gotta make the Lords in Black video first, and then there's a couple ideas I have that I'm more excited about, but hopefully, it shouldn't take too long!
I would still argue he cared they (technically) killed him. There's too much projection in lines like "Who will pray for me when I'm gone...or is this the eternal dark without a dawn" for that not to be the case.. Perhaps, more specifically, he cared about their desecration of his corpse without any consideration that someone in his life might desire a place to come remember him
The thing that fascinates me with this musical, though, is the relationship between Max & Grace. Complementary home-life trauma that led them to become very similar monsters in the end. I find it's very easy to picture that had Grace not lost her shit over her "awakening" (5 people dead, a whole town traumatized. It was a mess), they might have turned out to be a good couple for each other, either to the benefit or trauma of the rest of Hatchetfield. Grace, obviously, has an interest in him but Max clearly showed legitimate feelings for her as well: His more natural demeanor comes out when she's around. The numerous biblical references he makes, again including the idea of someone praying for him. While his spirit chased her, he never really threatened her specifically with death despite being the mastermind of the prank that killed him. And then there's the romance short-hand asking her to cuddle after her...gift. Even if he was awful in how he approached it, there was something there that could have veered the musical out of tragedy if the villains weren't so committed to staying in the boxes they made for themselves.
god i love your analysis! analysisisis? whatever the plural is LMAO
I think it's analyses?
You know what would be hilarious though? is if Max's dad actually never verbally abused max or anything.. But rather, there is a version of Max's dad in Max's mind that did. But Max's dad died (who was a nerdy prude) when max was in the 4th grade, due to clivesdale. like that could even tie back to the whole trust thing, if his dad was a nerdy prude, and as result his dad died. We never do see a Mr. Jagerman as far as I'm aware.
Pffft, that would be pretty funny, especially the part about Clivesdale killing his dad.
We never do see Mr. Jägerman in the show, but in an earlier draft, we were supposed to, and the line "Back home so dad can call you a little cuck" makes no sense if there's no dad to go back home to.
@@Vil.N.Melling Well remember there are a number of movies where the MC acts like another character is alive, but that character never existed or is dead. Fight Club, Psycho, Secret Window and so on. I think the line that really breaks my funny idea is "Worth It."
@@alchemystudiosink1894 that is true, but I really don't think that is the case in NPMD
babe wake up new roman empire just dropped
this has gotta be one of my favorite comments
can u make a grace chasity character analysis
I have a video planned for doing character analyses on ALL the nerds, miss Chasity included!
Now I know I have golden child syndrome
Then I can simply wish you good luck with everything that comes hand in hand with that
All bullies are hurt, honestly, in real life. For a few years when I was around ten, I - one of my few regrets - bullied my younger sisters. Why? Because my parents abused me and mostly ignored them. I was the scapegoat and it wasn't safe to be angry at my parents so I put the hurt elsewhere. I also had no idea what love looked like, so I thought that them being ignored and me being hurt meant that they were loved and spoiled because they were younger than me. I connected it to being the oldest. My youngest sister is now 14 and has a lot of anger that she lets out on our other sister because she's a safe person to be angry at. I spend a lot of time teaching her coping mechanisms and trying to be a therapist/parent for both of them. Most bullies don't have anyone showing them what love looks like or teaching them. And people know, but they don't care. If you're constantly told you're a horrible person, at first you try to be good to earn the love. Then eventually you give up, because you're going to be treated the same anyway, everyone knows but they don't care, so fuck the world, I'll be horrible then. Speaking from experience - I nearly ended up in a gang and pregnant because of this.
Max loves having power over others, probably because he'll soon have power over no one & nothing. Death only gave him new power.
He's such an uncompromising dick and we kinda love him for it. He's not "a bully", he's _"the bully"._
Max=Top, The Best
Jager= Hunter
MaxDonalds :P
I'm eating McDonald's as I'm watching this lol :3
Precisely what that photo file is called on my computer
@@Opalcrawler What a glorious coincidence!
I also think using the last name jägerman, as in jägerminster or a jägerbomb, is interesting as alcohol is a controlling addictive substance. This is probably a basic take but i think it relfects his dad constantly controlling or abusing him. Jägerbombs are also popular shots (i work in bars), but they arent nice to drink - its maxs personality, hes popular through his power but people dont like him, hes not nice.
Thank you for listening to my yapping
Jäger is also German for hunter
He's the worst. I love him.
Completely agreed, he's horrible and he's great
Max is an asshole but still human. He could have changed despite his own bullshit. However, the fact and where he died will make sure we'll never know what would become of him if he didn't take the fall for the nerds. Furthermore, I have a slight theory that the house corrupted his soul to the point that he became a merciless killer. The place is literally a summoning ground for the lords in black. What do you think is gonna happen when an angry dude dies there with the notion of being murdered by people he underestimated?