The "Neurodivergent Gaze"?
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- Опубликовано: 10 фев 2025
- What is a "gaze" anyway? And is there a "neurodivergent" one?
When is it ok to talk about "neurotypicals" & "neurodivergents" in a general way? And when does doing so cause harm?
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In this video, I deconstruct the idea of what a "gaze" can mean, and importantly, what it doesn't mean. We discuss the idea of a neurodivergent style, and why it's probably not great to make any judgements based on people's clothes, no matter whether you caveat doing so as "speaking generally" or not.
As an autistic person who was a goth kid in the early 2000s, I understand the world of alternative fashion & subculture, but remain adamant that there is no place for essentialist thinking within the neurodiversity movement. And way too often, when you judge people for dressing "in the male gaze" you end up stumbling into misogyny yourself.
A "gaze" is not simply a list of things people like, it is not an aesthetic. It is a consequence of power dynamics, and it is far more interesting to view the neurodivergent gaze in terms of overthrowing certain power dynamics.
My adhd gaze is looking at someone and then immediately forgetting what they look like
Omg relatable
@@Ember_Green Privacy-respectful gaze :3 (hurtingly relatable. If I'm ending as a witness on a crime scene, ask me for licence plates, but faces and outfit details? I'll bail out)
I have zero object permanence also 😅
My brain is also GDPR compliant. 😅
Name too. I was bad at my job because of name and recognition in some occasions. Startle me and I'm out of body so to speak.
I know a lot of neurodivergent women who are super into fashion. They are often told "you don't look autistic" or "you're too attractive to be autistic", which is a very back handed compliment.
I also know neurodivergent women who like makeup because it acts as an additional "mask" for them.
fun fact I made a comment a long time ago under a video where I talked a bit about autism. Someone replied to that comment with "you don't seem autistic" like bro could diagnose me from one paragraph of me talking.
I’m autistic, and I recently did a DIY color analysis. You know, finding out if you’re a Spring, Summer, Autumn, or Winter; and which subtype of said season, in order to determine which colors look best on you. It’s one of those things that is experts say is impossible to DIY. There are, actually, rules and categories that make it very possible to do accurately, if you’re obsessive enough to read hundreds of hours of color theory, watch videos, etc. Because it’s a very methodical, mostly linear process (with just a little room for subjective methods), it quickly became one of my few narrow interest areas. People do expect me to look really dorky, to qualify as autistic, which is ridiculous because there are plenty of artistic autistics (out East, the two are virtually indistinguishable…J/K). But I act weird enough to convince people, usually.
Be aware; this is a public space. I've come across AS folk who think the internet (including some very dubious formats/cesspools, such as Quora is a safe space, so you can say WFT you like. Save that for scribbles in a diary, or closed circle close friends).
WTF do autistic folk get so upset re "you don't look autistic". Do you expect every who wants to communicate with to be an expert in psychology and autism . That's a bar few can jump, let alone, communally drink at!
(and stop searching for the disappointing parent in everyone, so you can be angry and self-righteous behind there backs. Disappoint is an emotional everyone has to get to grips with. It will happen).
Try thinking of it this way, and as an experiment. The phrase YDLA, in itself, could well state that they person is trying to express, 'autism is not my daily experience' (although it is yours).
There's far far too many comments on-line that are unnecessarily antagonistic to 'others' that you define as NT (as if everyone person you meet, who isn't autistic, is a long life member of Autism Speaks and a fan of Eugenics).
Consider the possibility that 'YDLA', is a basic opening gambit, that shows that that person isn't considering you in term of 'non-autist/autistic', but is try to include you, on some level, as an equal. And, its a high chance that you brought the subject of autism into the conversation.
Don't use it as a test point to define someone as different, and by implication, inherently bad. Get ahead to the curve and see it as an opportunity to be both 'normal' and 'autistic'. People after all, are looking for common ground in conversation all the time, however brief. That's the nature of the common tongue/oral language, and in this technical literary age, that's a lost common art. That's why folk say, 'you alright/how are you'. It's a check in, a fundamental connecting phrase of a shared humanity, that can lift you from the woes of feeling isolated in your own thoughts and feelings - also know as the kindness of strangers. Every time you reject, diminish and condemn that phrase, and no except it for what it is (and it's not a parent saying, saying what's 'WTF the matter with you' in demeaning way) the smaller you make the your world. It may be a small offering, a token, but it can accumulate if you want it to.
The sooner Autism gets off this bandwagon of commendation and self definition through antitheses, and acting like the perpetual teenager, the better.
Now I'm off you replenish my sense of humour!
I’ve experienced this, it’s odd
i really hate it when people say that neurodivergent people can't be mean. there are plenty of neurodivergent people who are mean. some of us lack the filter to not be "brutally honest", some of us are so self-absorbed that we tend to be manipulative. I'm speaking as a neurodivergent person who has known neurodivergent people who are exactly like the examples i have given here.
Oh, definitely. In fact, I've wondered about the relationship between autism and personality disorders, as I've known an intriguing number of non-narcissistic autistic people with a narcissistic parent, for example. Neurodivergent people are more than capable of being toxic, abusive, hateful, and hurtful, and are also certainly capable of glomming onto bad ideas or negative fixations that end up causing harm.
I've noticed a lot of crossover symptoms of personality disorders and autism myself. BPD and it's emotional regulation is the same kind of thing as autistic meltdowns. Sociopathy (I think it's labeled as ASPD now) is the same concept of the autistic lack of empathy, or at least toward anything they don't care about.
Yeah, I think the same thing all the time; it's a ton of crossover and maybe one day there might be a realization that all this stuff is just various symptoms of autism (which itself has varying levels)
@@dinosaysrawr yeah, it especially sucks when they do these toxic things with full knowledge its toxic, but using their nerodivergence as a cover up
I've usually been a mean kid because I was raised by a baseline meanspirited father, despite him still being a provider. This kind of raised me to be full of my self as a kid so part of masking has been LEARNING consciously to be more mature and less mean. It's definitely a ridiculous stereotype that autistic ppl or ND ppl aren't naturally mean, or always naive and naive. I've also been nice and naive but also superficial and cynical.. Anyone can be naturally mean.
@@mushroom_girl3339 using your neurodivergent as an excuse to be an asshole is definitely wrong, but it's probably for the best to never assume someone knows what they are doing is toxic, especially in the moment. There is legitimately a lot going on with many autistic people regarding ability to emotionally regulate, or even control physical reactions when deregulated. Meltdowns are real things, and holding ND people to the exact same standards as NT people will always lead to more problems, so being understanding with the way you address someone saying they did it "because of my autism" goes a long way.
I think a lot of us are more judgmental than we think we are and maybe we need to unpack our kneejerk reactions to seeing random people out minding their own business.
we are. it's neurology. and the only way to stop it is exactly to unpack it.
Yes! My dad is very fat phobic, and when we were little kids we’d join in on his insults(he never said anything to someone’s face, but we’d make fun of them privately).
As I got older, I realized how wrong that was. Now I don’t think like that anymore, but every once in a while I have to stop and catch myself because his insults will just pop back in.
Yup. Still trying to get that voice to shut up sometimes 😭
I judge people on first glance all the time. I used to worry about it. That "what does she look like?" voice sounds terrible, and made me feel like a monster. But then, I noticed that a second or so later I'd think "well, maybe she's comfortable like that" and "she doesn't have to dress for my amusement".
A TERF ex-friend of mine would have said that the former reaction is the true one. But I believe the 3-second rationalisation is who I really am.
Roland Barthes used to call this "killing the cop in your mind". Stopping yourself when you are policing others is (for him) the first step towards abolishing police altogether
I think "gaze" is now just one of those academic/Serious Art Critic terms that became popularized in a way that sort of muddled people's understanding of what it means in that context. People heard "male gaze" used in film criticism often enough without a clear explanation of what it meant in that context and came away thinking "it means whatever a literal man likes looking at" and not "a way of creating and looking at film (or other visual art) that presupposes who is the default idea of the creator is, who the default assumed viewer is, what that viewer would be looking at and who/what in the frame is a subject vs an object, centering an assumed (straight) male perspective".
Now, could a "neurotypical gaze" be a thing? I think we can argue that the same kind of framework can apply, but it would be less about "what do The Neurotypicals like" and more about how mental illness and neurological differences are framed and how neuroatypical characters are variously othered, objectified and abjectified (sonetimes all at once).
Now, do meanings of words change? Sure! But I think a lot of the confusion really is actually confusion over what the term is meant to mean in the original sense because people talk about it as if they think they are talking about the same thing as earlier writers and critics were
Exactly what I was thinking. People hear words and don't understand the context and just make up different words thinking they're corresponding when they have nothing to do with each other or don't even understand the sociological depths of the original word. This is how we end up with terms like "misandry" and "reverse racism".
Ah the joys and hardships of human language
The most galling to me is people using the term gaslighting to just mean ‘lying’, ‘disagreeing with me’, or ‘saying something that hurts my feelings or makes me feel bad’
Yes, word meanings evolve and change over time and is just part of how language evolves (eg when people say ‘hussy’ these days they pretty much never mean ‘housewife‘, but to back however many hundreds of years and that’s perfectly normal)
However, muddying and diluting words with highly specific medical/psychological/technical/generally academic meanings can be genuinely harmful, masking people’s ability to spot the true phenomenons when they arise and endangering those who need help/are asking for consideration of the phenomenon
Unfortunately, it’s REALLY hard to prevent happening because fundamentally not all people have the interest, experience or neurological capacity to understand the concepts in the first place, or are easily befuddled or alienated by misapplication of the terms by others (see trump saying he ‘doesn’t have pronouns’ because he doesn’t understand a. gender theory basic concepts, or b. Basic grammatical terminology and/or application in the English language)
I feel like if we're talking about neurotypical gaze, my interpretation of it is someone makes a movie focused on a character with a specific mental illness or condition (not sure of exact words to use here) but that movie is made by someone who doesn't have it themselves and often depicts stereotypes that stigmatise and/or misrepresent it. For example this is seen in the movie Split with the main character (won't go into much detail here haven't watched Split) and how the movie stigmatises did and osdd. Also common media portrayals of OCD create caricatures of it, like they'll portray ocd as being just about cleaning as some kind of joke which ignores how ocd actually affects people and their lives. I'm sure there's more to be said here (particularly around portrayals of schizophrenia, psychosis, also autism stereotypes
TikTok needs to be banned from using academic terms
Next hot Tiktok trend: how to measure people's skull shapes to determine if they are neurodivergent or not !!!!
Don’t, because I’ve already seen someone talk about “autism face” 😭
Every "trend" is just the old made new again! Bring back phrenology!!😂 *sarcasm*
Supposedly autistic people tend to have bigger heads. Not me though.
This was a study saying that. Not sure how well done the study was.
@@Ember_GreenI thought that was just somebody trying to say that somebody else has “resting bitch face” without calling somebody else a bitch so they still have plausible deniability
There’s already stuff that is scarily similar to this unfortunately
I've been saying the "dressing for the male gaze vs female gaze" and " were you written by a man or written by a woman" trends were just slut-shaming with extra steps. And now this, it's just repackaged "not like the other girls" nonsense. Even ignoring how the term was originally used for film critique and using it more broadly, the entire point of "the male gaze" is that it is inescapable. Your poofy floral dresses and colorful makeup are still perceived through the male gaze because we live in a patriarchal society.
If I could edit this comment into the video, I would.
This nails it so well!
I'm going to halfway disagree with this point on the "written by a wo/man" part.
When I was a teen girl I read a book series about a group of teen girls with magical powers. At least once per book there was a scene where all the girls would get ready in pretty much club outfits and it always felt like a gearing up for battle scene (due to intent and the plot) and I always wished I could have outfits like described in the book. It was the early 2000s so there was plenty of body glitter, flowy crop tops, and mini skirts, but the text never felt like it was objectifying or denigrating the girls. Those scenes always felt just as empowering and magical as when they used their powers to fight the big bad.
I think that would've been far less likely if those scenes were written by a man.
I do agree that some of those phrases are being co-opted by pop culture in the same way that therapy speak is being watered down. But I think that the "written by a woman" trope is more than whether you're wearing a nun's habit or a Caribbean carnival outfit. It's about feeling like a whole person regardless of physical appearance.
@@cruztastrophe what you just described is how the female gaze works as media theory critique. Where the creator invites the reader/audience to view characters as subjects or share from their perspective rather than objects for consumption or projection. Getting ready alongside for the final battle, sharing in that moment. I'd argue that even corny moments like the infamous women of Marvel shot in Endgame were for the female gaze even if I felt like studio wanted a cookie while doing it. Still counts cuz that was meant for women but that's a collision of capitalism and certain strains of corporate feminism. Was it a artistic choice or a marketing one, who knows?
Conversely women can and do create art under the male gaze because it's pervasive in art and artist gotta eat and sometimes to even make it to the table as well as people internalize things.
The gender of the writer is less important than the relationship between subject of camera/uhh pen? , the creator, audience and relation to a larger patriarchal society and media. Does the lens make the women a passive object for male subjects and an presumed male audience or does she get to do her own thing without considering a male audience? Are they performing feminity that is upheld by patriarchy or derided by it? Does that even matter because their actions are always done in relation to a gender norm even in disregarding that norm. Is it about the gaze of the creator and how they may or may not have a subscription to patriarchy monthly? What about a women audience viewing material that aligns with patriarchal norms but is not for male audiences? That combo occurs all the time in the romance genre and even makes the bestsellers list frequent.
Media theory and social theory are a messy subjective combo. Sometimes fun to wade in though.
Though yeah 😅 it's more likely for those who may experience the male gaze as the target of the camera to critique it and try a alternative viewpoint. Geezus I'm mixing my metaphors here. Sry just saying to me it seems folks in this comment thread are close to the same page.... Goddamnit another metaphor, nope I give up 🏳️ nice comment I think i know what you meant and have had experiences like it while reading.
That’s dumb, because that’s like saying a non-racist or homophobic depiction of black people or gay is still ‘white gaze’ or Hetero-gaze because we live in a colorist or heteronormative society. I’m sick of primarily gender conformist gaslighting that femininity isn’t the standard on women globally for centuries and pretending that masculine-looking or gender nonconforming women are the celebrated by men and those who are ‘girly’ is perfectly immune from internalized society’s women-hate. This accusation that GNC women are ‘pick-mes’ is getting old, is misogynist and rather ironic.
"Just be yourself" I got that A LOT, along with the "Not like that" follow up. SO CONFUSING OMG
my therapist does exactly this
>oooh, you need to be authentic, how do you expect people to like you when you're hiding things from them
>yeah, if you don't want to get bullied, you need to hide the skirts and pretend to be a normal cis man, it's nAtUrAl that people dislike weirdoes like you, you should make an effort to fit in
yeah, so in other words, I'm supposed to be oppressed and pretend that I actually enjoy the oppression, ok
"The yourself that look like me."
Chris Flemming has a good bit about "be yourself, but run it by us first"
When there is one thing that life taught me, it's that _every_ group of people has it's a22holes. And yet, at 45, i still fall for the "Finally, a group of people I can belong to and feel safe with!" ...
Ain't just you
Ouch, right in the feelings!
Yep! There will always be jerks in any group. Some people just suck lol
I read this as every group of people "has 22 a**holes," like there's exactly 22 jerks in any large group of people, no more or less at a time. 😅
Just had this experience very recently. 😅
The nice vs not nice aesthetic is simply “I feel threatened because I was othered by people like this” vs “I feel comfortable because these people look like me”
Yeah, I agree.
I know this intellectually but I still feel more uncomfortable around women with a stereotypical feminine presentation. A lot of them haven't liked me. But some of them have been nice so it isn't good to assume that they will all be mean.
And not all neurodivergent people will be nice.
Certain looks and fashion choices are very very clear signals of safety .
If I have to choose between talking to the person with piercings and tattoos everywhere or the entirely average looking woman I will always take the former because from previous experience those people have just been more safe
It's a perfectly natural thing everyone does
@@LuluTheCorgi it's normal for the mind to pick up on and respond to general patterns as a safety response but it's still on us to recognize that it's stereotyping and we need to be mindful of how we're responding to just seeing a stranger in public.
That supermarket thing is the most insulting, misogynistic thing I've heard today. The idea that if I need to go pick up a prescription during my work day, I must be trying to appeal to men? So when I have court at 8am, then finish 9.45am and have a meeting at 11am, what am I supposed to do? Go home, take off my make up and change into a pair of leggings, then go hit up the pharmacy, go back home again, change into my dress and do my make up again, and then go to my meeting? That's the "practical" option? Ridiculous. Women are capable of making decisions that aren't centered around men.
Agree!! Also as a neurodivergent person with a particular love of fashion, one of my favorite parts of leaving the house is dressing up for it!! Sure I keep some comfy/basic clothes in rotation for days when I can't be bothered but the idea that someone is looking at me and thinking "she's dressing up to appeal to men" is INFINITELY weirder than someone looking at me and thinking "wow she's hot" (provided it's not accompanied by any inappropriate advances on me). Also who cares if someone wants to look hot at the grocery store anyway??
I was just thinking this! The supermarket doesn’t have a dress code, you can’t over or underdress for it. You could go there before, after, or in between any number of other activities that ARE worth the effort to dress up for. Alternately, even if someone did dress up to go to the supermarket, that is a decision that person made and it’s not anyone’s place to make presumptions or weird character judgements about why they decided to dress some way while they buy some cereal.
some neurodivergent people have a holier than thou attitude that they must be better and less judgemental and more 'authentic' than any possible neurotypical and it,,,, deeply confuses me tbh. like neurodivergent people can suck, so can neurotypical people. the 'suck level' doesn't directly correlate with neurotype. great video and live chat 💜
Abso-f#&!?+-lutely!!! 😅
Yep. Turns out autistic people are still people lol
i'm FOR SURE not holier than thou nor do i think i'm just so amazing and epic and The Shit (except for the bit or when i'm hyping myself up or when i do good in video games) but i do also know for sure that i am much less judgemental and more authentic than the vast majority of NT ppl. i still judge here and there, and i used to be a really shitty judgmental person, especially in middle school and high school, but i've gotten a LOT better and can confidently say i've done a good job unlearning a lot of taught hatred, though of course that's a neverending journey.
ND people can absoLUTELY suck lol.... and sometimes that's me! sometimes i suck. i do try to apologise though, and then try to do better next time.
I’ve noticed most NDs tend to be extremes of either bad or good. That’s just what I observed. However those in the middle are the ones that’s catch the warning bells. I’m in two different subreddit one with righteous thoughts are and the extremist 4chan/incel behavior out of curiosity of human behavior. It’s not something for everyone but being aware of different types of our communities can help me not assume things about people and be more open to nuances. I think we as a community need to open our minds to many things to better understand then rather categorize and pass judgement on
@@markigirl2757 I’ve noticed that too. Especially the incel thing.
I have to imagine there are plenty of neurodivergent gays.
Exactly her bit about not being able to help judging a women who “seems to be” dressing for the male gaze was odd to me as a women could be dressed in girl or tight clothes and literally just be a femme lesbian.
@@hunni2968 Ah, that was more a play on words regarding the words "gaze" and "gays" sounding alike. Ember Green sorta made a similar joke in the intro. It was just that I heard her say "neurodivergent gaze" and I was like. "Well, that's literally all the gays I know."
@@hunni2968 I know what you mean! I love to dress up in short dresses and heels, but I’m constantly plagued with knowing that people will perceive me as straight even though I’m just a femme lesbian 😭
I'm one of them 🙋(I'm bi actually, but since I'm nonbinary too I guess this makes all my attraction gay). Also loved her talk about taking down binaries, I'm on board with that ;)
Neurodivergent peeps tend to reject social norms more than neurotypicals so that makes sense.
How are we in the year 2024 and still seeing iterations of "no like other girls" shit? I thought I left this behind in high school 😭
It's a really difficult mindset to break when it's internalized. I know I'm still working on not doing it. I like how the RUclipsr Illymations explained it, which was basically that if you are excluded and rejected often for "weird" traits it's really easy to go, "Well, actually those things make me better than them" as a defense mechanism.
As an autistic gal who generally wears suits and other such "uncomfortable" or "high maintainance" outfits even to very casual things like picnics or the movies, I can say for certain that you get used to it. Those outfits aren't uncomfortable to me because I wear them often, I like wearing them and, if anything, I LIVE for the strange looks and comments I get. Like, yeah I'm in a 1940s tuxedo and there's nothing you can do about it.
Anyways, judging folk because they like to put a lot of effort into their look because you don't or consider it uncomfortable is really dumb and mean.
That's really cool, also, Brisket :D
A lot of people who put a lot of effort into their looks have judged me for not being like them. I have been called lazy and not a real woman.
The fact of the matter is different people like different things and it is rude to judge people who aren't like you. A lot of people think their own way is best when often it is just different, not better or worse.
holy fuck based
Il fatto è che anche le persone appartenenti al gruppo dei neurodivergenti hanno uno stile e un'apparenza che richiede tantissimo impegno, quindi non ha alcun senso questo punto che fa dei neurotipici che si truccano per andare al supermercato. Non è che se uno stile è più particolare e diverso dalla norma e non segue i trend mainstream (anche se sempre di moda si tratta) allora non mette impegno. Io sinceramente amerei tingermi i capelli e vestirmi in outfit complicati con 10000 strati ma non posso proprio per la mia neurodivergenza che non mi permette di avere l'energia per farlo...
The issue was it being about appealing to cishet men with that effort. So you doing that for yourself is the difference maker. Then again, anyone appealing to cishet men directly for their attention is valid, but should acknowledge their part in the upholding of the patriarchy with that. The act of preening and performing for male attention. That little bit is something people aren't honest about. But it doesn't apply to you, hope it doesn't bother you.
“Neurotypicals are inauthentic only chasing trends” the word they’re looking for is poser. No need to pathologize that. I’m never true to myself either.
I’m glad someone else feels some type of way about this video because as a neurodivergent person myself I couldn’t help but think that video was just giving “not like other girls” at the end of the day.
Agree. I usually like her stuff and relate a lot to how she experiences the world, but I remember watching this one and thinking it was just falling in to the trap of “my group is the best group” and giving vibes of autistics are just better people. It’s a dangerous path to go down.
I especially hate the "no, allistics are the ones that lack all empathy"
We just spent the hour learning how we seemed that way to them because we do it different and then you just fell right into that same trap from the other side
Absolutely. It`s giving good old fashioned highschool ✨misogyny✨
14:55 I'm sorry, are some people genuinely not aware that hyperfeminine lesbians and bisexuals exist? They're not dressing for the male gaze. In fact, most cis women dress more for *other women* than they do for men, so accusations of an appeal to the male gaze are kinda illogical.
Also there are neurodivergent people for whom fashion and makeup are some of their special interests! We are vast, contain multitudes, are capable of looking hot, etc.
I do not expect men seeing me to typically catch the nuances of my outfits and makeup and I'm typically dressing far more to socially participate with women than I am to appeal to men. Even when it's sexy I'm often coming from "the girls will all dress sexy, I should do my take on it" and the clothes I wear to actually attract my bfs attention are a different set entirely. [Disclaimer I only have depression so am more or less nt, which probably plays in here?]
Me, a lesbian, walking the boring mundane places in retro swing dresses, petticoats and heels because it's fun for me to do
You are spot on. There are also plenty of stereotypically masculine men that are actually gay or bisexual and plenty of straight men whom are married with children that are very expressive and flamboyant with their fashion. People are too complex to be put into a "gaze".
Me: autistic trans woman finally having the energy to dress up and look hot once in a blue moon - for myself, and hopefully other women, what with being a lesbian - hitting the supermarket after my date
RUclipsr: this is neurotypical male gaze
???????
When you're at the grocery store, you encounter a varied sampling of people. You have no idea their circumstances. Why assume they look like that everyday? If you visit daily and see an employee or the same customer daily, you could see a pattern, sure (but why tho lol). In any or either case, I have no idea how that could be a significant view into their inner world. That is *one* aspect of a person that you have an incomplete knowledge of, and no knowledge of the otherwise greater person.
Also masking?? We do awful things to ourselves sometimes to fit in, whether we realize it or not. Oh and also our stimulus issues are not identical??? Like Ember said, mine come and go and change. Sometimes I need super soft heavy compression; tight dresses can feel really good! And also it's ableist af to act like you can just *read* what people are like this. That's just psychic healing powers with an abstraction. Like there's just a bunch of ways this turns into unnecessary and hurtful judgments towards people you do not know anything about. It makes me a real salty spittoon grumper sadgirl to hear this stuff. You can do better RUclipsr person, you have the capability, just don't be a judgy weirdo =/
I replied to my own comment to preserve the joke.
I got a bit of whiplash at the grocery store bit. Like, I'm also a trans woman and I have to go to the grocery store tomorrow, it's not an easy thing for me to do and I planned a nice outfit in my head in advance because it will help me get through that really stressful chore. Like, what are they talking about???????
I'm an autistic cis woman and I have to 'dress' to go to ANY place so I have the confidence to be seen outside my comfort zone at home!
My daughter is trans and I see the amount of effort she puts in before leaving the house 💜
I'm sure you both look amazing 💜💜
@@xhex6571 Not as amazing as you sweetie
Blue moon tonight let’s gooo get dressed up lmao
That video about the neurodivergent gaze was so weird, I started watching and she was just talking about how basically all neurotypicals were “bad” (eg. saying all neurotypical girls were stereotypical mean girls while neurodivergent girls were “good” and naturally kind) and did that for 20+ minutes. Then I stopped watching because I don’t agree with that viewpoint.
If we don’t want to be judged for how our brain works and how we interact with society we shouldn’t judge others for it.
I went into that video ready to give it a chance but yea, 20 mins in & was like "she's just saying ANYTHING". You hit the nail on the head, two wrongs don't make a right.
@@Ember_GreenI was even thinking about sharing it under your autism supremacy video because it was just so blunt about those ideas
I've tried to watch Irene's videos as a low support needs autistic teen and although it's obvious to me she comes from a good place and some of her work is great advice, I feel like she yaps on and on about stuff that doesn't really form the argument she's trying to make. it sounds rude but I would love it if she organised some of her videos into structures
@@Likemonopoly That’s a complete misunderstanding of the video, but in all fairness I can understand why it was confusing for y’all and you came away with a bad taste. I think her message could have been communicated more clearly, precision, and with more nuance.
@@yuenmienyu I will say, Irene's videos as a non-white, femme, in my late 20s her videos helped me realise I might be autistic, and I'm now two years into the diagnosis process and understand myself much better. She did a video a long time ago about how masking in her videos was hurting her mental health and how she was going to be more "off the cuff" at the risk of offending people or being wrong. So, idk. She's a random person on the internet, it's worth pointing out where she can improve, and also knowing her stuff isn't for everyone.
pop psych is the bane of my existence
love this video. call that bullshit out!!!
I hate pop psych so much as a AuDHDer with a special interest in psychology, and currently on the path to earning a degree in it. In order to actually understand psychology and their studies, you need to understand stats. Not many people actually understand stats unfortunately.
I mean it's fun when it confirms *my* biases, otherwise, eh.
"gaze" is yet another term made meaningless by the internet
Similar to the way "discourse" was used at the beginning of this one.
the internet is full of children and people who don't care enough to read up, constantly being aware that the opinion you're reading has a non zero chance to be written by an 12 year old helps
I’m glad you made this. When I first watched her video I felt uncomfortable at parts but it brought back so many memories of being treated poorly by mean girls that I felt like I was being supported and protected by her. After watching this and reading a lot of the comments, I’ve reevaluated and I realized that she said the same things my mom said when I was a little girl about other women. It was so mean and full of hate and this is vs them attitude, slot shaming and I realized years ago, based in jealousy. And it made me dress in baggy dark clothing and fear ever being sexual or embracing my body in public. I struggle with intense body image issues and her video caught me in my vulnerability and it was easy to be caught up in the same beliefs my mom espoused. The same ones that directly harmed me.
I don’t like shaming women for their fashion and body choices because it sets women against each other. Regardless of neuro type, but that too. This whole eugenics-y behavior by some autistic people has been scaring me for a while now, but tying it into sexism and judging other women based on their looks and sexuality is so so icky. I’m honestly impressed her video had me convinced-but it’s because it was so good at putting me above women I’ve been jealous of my whole life. It fed into my vulnerabilities and need to feel seen and good just as I am, and I hate that. I hate that I was able to be so easily dragged into this type of mentality.
Thank you for this comment, it is very astute. A lot of creators create a sense of an “in-group” for engagement but at the end of the day, you don’t know us or what kind of people we are, and then of course othering the “out-group” is just easy content to make.
A younger me would have eaten it up. I used to feel safe amongst “alternative” people until I was abused by some.
Your experience is important & I appreciate you sharing it, as I’m sure many others were in the same boat!
This feels like another version of not being like other girls.
I love wearing colorful brights dresses that I make myself. It’s certainly not for the male or neurotypical gaze it’s because I like the feeling of a tight top and it helps me have control over how people see me and approach me. It also gives me a topic for small talk and I get to share how proud I am of my sewing skills.
I am exhausted with the way femininity is demonized I had to fight be seen as feminine I had to fight to be sexy. I don’t claim that mh personal style is for everyone I just like it for my own personal autism reasons
I feel this so much, but instead of colourful dresses I fix the stuff I thrift and since I lean a bit more alt so I add chains to half the skirts I own and repair every piece of clothing to death!!!
I also like showing off as much of my body as possible DESPITE the judgment and for being perceived as male gazey, a LOT of the judgment comes from male people, partners, friends, neighbours, strangers, all of em..
I love leaning into the femininity, super short pleated skirts, high socks, pigtails, on one hand and platform boots, chains, corsets, it all just makes me feel like me, loose clothing on loose clothing makes me feel frumpy and insecure, whatever the colour
Last thing: why can so many people not appreciate different styles despite them not being their own? Like can you really not appreciate things FOR someone else??
If I’d been diagnosed as a teenager and the Aspie supremacy stuff was around when I was at university, I suspect I would have fallen into that trap. Coming from a highly dysfunctional family, looking for connectivity with others and mostly failing, and already thinking I was something special due to my intellect, I would have been primed for it.
You are absolutely correct that it it’s dangerous for young autistic people. I’m freshly minted as an official autist, but I entered the community last year, and one thing that is clear to me is that we adult autistic people need to try to find a way to provide community for the younger community. We struggled through it, most of us not understanding why we were struggling, but we got through it. We could help others.
If anybody knows of existing groups for doing that, it’s a resource I’d love to have available. I’m in the US, but in my interactions with young autistic folks around the (primarily Western) world, I’d love to have resources to share.
I am one
As an autistic person myself, I know that black and white thinking is a common struggle in autistic people. But there's nuance to literally EVERYTHING. I catch myself not making space for nuance all the time and it just takes some more thinking on the topic and listening to other experiences. This whole "neurotypical aesthetic/gaze" vs "neurodivergent aesthetic/gaze" thing lacks any nuance at all. I hope those people can work on that
I’m autistically adamant about the importance of nuance ☺️
I used to think I wasn't autistic because I didn't have any noise sensitivity, no sensory issues, was very organized, not a picky eater, and didn't have rigid thinking.
Turns out I was just inverted: extreme noise sensitivity, except I love it rather than hating it, major sensory issues just I'm HYPOsensitive to texture, tight or wet clothes, very high pain and discomfort tolerance, was very organized as a reaction to how disorganized I was inside, was absurdly unpicky with food because of hyposensitivity, and instead of rigid thinking I got lost in endless shades of grey and overconsidered hypothetical perspectives to a counterproductive extreme. So yeah I had it all it was just backwards
@@asafoetidajones8181 The last one really resonates with me! I do get more black and white thinking too, but that's more about myself or whether I'm optimistic or pessimistic, that's often all or nothing, but I feel like I thrive in nuance to the point that I might get lost in it a bit. I'm not sure whether I'm autistic or if that's just my ADHD and I don't really have anything "productive" to add, but this resonated with me and I got excited about it
my biggest immediate issue I took with the original video (I watched it about 2 days ago) was the grocery store argument, if I see someone dressed all up at the grocery store I don't default to "they put so much effort just to go to the grocery store?" I default to "this person needs to do their shopping and also has/had some other event that they'd prefer looking like this for" ... or maybe they just dress like that any day because they want to and can, not everyone is like me and only able to put effort into how they look to that extent once every 3 or 5 months
This was incredibly well thought out and balanced. I'm looking forward to your video on aspie supremacy, as I have seen a lot of it in the autism community, even some of the milder more 'empathetic' parts of that community, especially when it concerns autistic people who arent considered to be 'high functioning'. Anyway, you have a brilliant point about the anti neurotypical stuff being dangerous and alienating further vulnerable autistic people. There are unfortunate parallels to the 8chan people you mentioned, and the ideologies that come out of that.
Thank you I appreciate that:)
Yep and if only if any supremacy idea unironic is bad. and echo chambers only.
Yep any supremacy idea is breeding ground for radicalizing.
I think part of the problem with the “stop dressing for the male gaze” stuff is a conflation of “you don’t have to” (liberating) with “you shouldn’t” (prescriptive)
The rhetoric, that sexy clothing is uncomfortable really gets old. And just because something looks comfortable doesn't mean it is. Sweatpants are so damn annoying. Jumpsuits are unpractical. Unstyled hair constantly gets in the way. Everything fuzzy or kitted or crochet is a textural nightmare. At least while staying at home I just want to wear my yoga pants and silky tank top and voluminous hair bun in peace without my mum complaining that I look like a slut. Why must it be more important to look comfy than to be comfy, even while no one is around??
What is comfortable to one person is not to another. I like jeans (which lots of autistic people hate). I think that sweatpants are comfortable. I agree with you about most knit stuff being very uncomfortable. It is just preference. However, some clothing items most people think are uncomfortable. Like woolen stockings.
Admittedly I haven't seen the video but I've seen people discussing, and it just feels like a different version of the "good" kind of autistic person only being recognized. Autistic people who are cute and fashionable, a little childish, a little weird, but nonthreatening and feminine. Just thinking about my own experiences as an autistic person and autistic people who don't fit this "aesthetic" at all, "neurodivergent gaze" seems like a completely incoherent concept and if it catches on I'm gonna be mad. I dunno, I should probably watch it before having anymore thoughts.
You're right, it doesn't escape me that there are no men or masc non-binary people on the thumbnail of the original video at all. I think the sort of cutesy, quirky, "romanticized" type of neurodivergence you're talking about is very often associated with women and afab non-binary people that have a specific type of aesthetic and way of presenting themselves. I'm not saying their way of presentation is inauthentic of course, it's just shouldn't be considered the default or the "correct" way to perform neurodivergence. What does this say or imply about neurodivergent people that don't put so much effort into an "aesthetic" or don't have this cutesy presentation? Or Black neurodivergent people (considering Black people are already often ostracized from "aesthetics") or nd people whose neurodivergence doesn't make them "quirky"? This pop psychology nonsense just flattens discussions and makes them so surface level and it just feels like "not like other girls" all over again
The particular choice of what represents "neurotypical aesthetic" seems to me to be influenced by modesty culture. I would have more likely picked women's business casual as a foil for the bold and colourful aesthetic, since it's made to enable a certain conformity and normative-ness (and is kept distinctly feminine). Wearing form-fitting athleisure used to be heavily criticised (often still is), so I don't think it can be described as a normative or predominant aesthetic, despite it being very frequent on Instagram.
I used to have a client, 45ish, 6' 4" and 275lbs easy who was a hulking rage and special interest monologue machine. He tore a door off the hinges then tried to cover it up by hiding the door, unscrewing the broken hinges and insisting there was never a door there. He was a nice enough fellow but extremely troubled.
Then he saw my black flag tattoo and started info dumping about hardcore at me. This is basically how it went:
Him: "cool tattoo. I have the same one. Henry Rollins is autistic like me that's why we both get angry and act different"
Me: "yes, Chris, all three of us, you me and henry, we're three of the one million angry autistic boys with black flag tattoos that's just how the world works"
Him: "he doesn't have flag tattoos he's in the band"
Me: "yes he does he has like four of them, don't make me out-autist you"
@@aw7145yeah as a black autistic man who grew up in the “hood” I exclusively wear dark steetwear more on the masculine side, because I genuinely like the “aesthetic”. I also like going gym to gain a typically masculine physique, and I’m already tall. So obviously it makes me seem a bit unsafe to outsiders before people get to know me they realise I’m actually nerdy and have quite a soft personality despite how I present
the only socially accepted kind of an autistic person is a cis woman who participates in this childish style
I do love my kawaii fashion, just yesterday I bought a bunch of clothes and everything was pink with the exception of thigh highs and a skirt which were white, but I'm AMAB (unless I, like, wear complex makeup or a baseball cap to cover my face, I get clocked as male most of the time), so I'm absolutely detested, the childishness (mostly in fashion, but I have some of that innocent vibe, body language, hard to describe, but if I'm in a good mood I'll literally skip around instead of walking, like a cartoon character, lol) only makes it worse
I can see a very clear difference whenever I put in lots of effort and people assume I'm a cis girl (my native language is heavily gendered, so it's pretty easy to note which pronouns/forms strangers use towards you, girl specifically cos they check my ID, I'm 27 lol), suddenly everyone is nice, understanding, they'll make room for me in a bus instead of pushing me around and snickering about my clothes (the idea that my fashion has to match my genitals is so creepy to me, I won't start the subject of gender, but that's like one of the first things that made me feel alienated in childhood, wearing guy clothes makes me straight up uncomfortable cos it feels as if I was wearing an armband with a penis symbol to announce my AGAB to the world)
tho they don't like when I get serious and defend myself (for starters, my right to dress like this), so idk normies just don't like me unless they think I'm a normie cis girl
(sorry for scatterbrained writing lol)
"I'm generalizing, but..." isn't enough. In my opinion, it's never helpful to repeat stereotypes as generalities, even if it's clear you don't mean every. single. person.
Why wouldn't it be helpful? Generalities and stereotypes are shortcuts so we can understand the world and make decisions faster, without missing the big pictures for all the exceptions and details.
@@foljs5858Because the big picture includes all of those things rather than disregarding them.
@@foljs5858 Because you will fully miss the nuance. You can generalize gender by erasing every single nuance within it. Same with any other social construct I suppose. You really miss out on the beauty of the human experience and may even open the floodgates towards bigotry and the slippery slope that comes with that. I mean sure you CAN generalize but make sure to reflect, expand and understand the nuance of whatever topic you generalize. Anyway, hope that helped paint a different perspective, all the best :)
Shoutout to Irene's channel though, it is a good channel even though I see I wasn't the only one puzzled by that particular video.
@@foljs5858there’s a big difference between using general concepts to make sense of things for yourself & making advocacy content which encourages doing so because nuance is “boring”.
I remember thinking while hearing about this dichotomy of "dressing to appease others" and "dressing to express yourself" that I mosty just... dress not to be naked.
worst color combo is green and red that reminds you of christmas when it shouldn't
And then I adorn your comment with a little green & red “creator like” lol
It is also known as discordant complementary colours in colour theory and the colours are often used to create a sense of anxiety in art, like in Van Gogh's The Night Café
ADHD, OCD, and Autism the neuro divergent trinity. They’re all so co morbid if you have all three it’s hard to figure out which goes where or if they are all intermixed.
Ugh yeah I'm diagnosed autistic and my tester recommended I get tested for adhd based on screening results (also one of my adhd friends is adamant I have it.) Also I'm questioning if I have ocd (don't know if I want to go into it here) and I'm thinking I'll go see a specialist at some point this year or next. It's so hard to determine what certain experiences are relevant especially as they overlap and intersect at multiple points
Edit: wanted to add why I commented this: unspecified ocd or anxiety is running rampant in my life rn and I'm trying to cope with it
@@VirtualQuarkInterface My thoughts, mood
Cant even articulate enough words without typing out a whole essay to say I agree with this video whole heartedly. Thank you for sharing your thoughts
i remember when i was high masking and trying to ignore my queerness, i was insisting on always looking very done up and like a good girl as dictated by a patriarchal, ableist society. for a while it was comfortable because it means making myself less of a target for being “weird.” i think folks who had a similar experience to me might be more likely to assume that image is uncomfortable for everyone to embody because it became uncomfortable for us over time. i think we need to leave people to their own journeys of authenticity and instead advocate for the social conditions that allow everyone to explore their authenticity.
I really resonate with the part about using neurodivergent as a synonym for autistic. The number of times an autistic friend has told me I must be autistic because I have traits they recognize! Like, it would be fine if I were, but I'm not. Neurodivergent, yes- autistic specifically, no. And that's just me with ADHD!
I did that to a childhood friend of mine. I am autistic and I thought she was too, but it is actually childhood trauma. I feel pretty bad about that error. But I can tell you the reason for it: I saw what I wanted to see. I felt so isolated, I just wanted her to be like me. I wanted ANYONE to be like me.
It sucks because neurodivergent was created as a term BECAUSE people were using the neurodiversity movement to hyperfocus way more on autistic people than anyone else. It was suppose to be a term to be like "hey! neurodiversity includes people with OCD! and depression! and ptsd! and anything that makes your brain different! we should be fighting for all of us!" and then the wider internet took control over it and just made it autism focused again (and sometimes they'll mention ADHD if your lucky)
I've had this exact thing happen to me! I have ADHD and trauma responses that happen to overlap with autistic traits, so I get armchair diagnoses all the time. It's lead to more than a few crisises. But really those crisises were because I had convinced myself that being autistic was the most valid way to be neurodivergent, and that people wouldn't take my struggles as seriously otherwise.
hey did my comment get removed randomly? I wrote something here and now I don't see anything
Some of the meanest and most judgemental people I've ever met were ND, and so were some of the kindest and most accepting. People complain about "romanticizing" or "glamorizing" neurodiversity when neurodivergent people express themselves or live happy lives, but it's really these restrictive stereotypes and expectations that hold the community back, whether it be the expectation that all neurodivergent people live lives of endless suffering, or that they be pure, innocent, authentic angels who neurotypical people could never possibly understand. Generalizing a group of people will always lead to negative consequences.
I think part of this could be how people with similar neurotypes are more likely to click and immediately get on with each other. I can see how that could make someone think that those people are just nicer
That video really upset me the more it circled in my mind after watching. And I am baffled how she doesn’t realize that most of these value judgements she’s making on clothes and superficial preferences are directed towards women.
that video was rather confusing for me. The generalising an weird assumptions aside, I kept thinking "what about all the *other* styles of clothing? there's more than tight revealing athleasure in neutral colours x bright colourful jumpers and overalls, right?" Admittedly it was focused on women and femmes, but I could not help but think how would she cathegorise me :D I am mostly masculine, love sewing, wear mostly grey (bright colours hurt) and my aesthetic could be described, if it must be, as a delightful combination of vintage elegance and shabbiness, because I just love my well worn linen above anything. Is that neurotypical or neurodivergent fashion? But more importantly, do I look nice or mean?
I have known that I am autistic for years, but only recently I started to be a little more open about it, and quite honestly the (visual) image of autism on social media often allienates me.
Yup, I've known women who are perpetually colourful in often form-fitting clothing, others always loose and comfy in subtle goth-influenced style. There's so many styles that don't map to, or contradict, their simple classification that it's odd to pick just those two.
You could *maybe* say that neutral-toned athleisure is predominantly worn as an outfit (rather than just for function or incidentally) by neurotypical women, or the personal style of dressing exclusively in a single bold colour is neurodivergent in origin, but neither are really representative of a neurotype as a whole or say much of anything about a person's character - especially when it's also filtered through what they choose to represent themselves with publicly on social media.
No, there is only two styles: beige yoga wear or pink dungarees 😤
I think we also need to spread more talk about neurodivergences that aren’t autism or adhd online because it sometimes feels like those are the only one that can exist in the grand scepticism of the internet
Autistic people have their insecurities and project them on to others. I'd say from my experience that this happens more for autistic people. We get to be more insecure from masking. In order to mask we need to make some assumption, often wrong but a best guess is how we should act in social group based on how they are dressed, activities they are doing or what they are talking about. No it only I could read the room as I'm told to do so often but can't. That would help a lot.
Its minority stress, like thats why the black community can be conservative?!
As example. More minority stress, more restrictive usually.
Which yeah also a survival thing but still.
And it might be not the strictest definition, but minority stress gets across thst survivsl mechsnism kinda.
@@marocat4749 makes sense, I suppose it's also why minority groups might feel constantly persecuted, whether that perception is justified or not.
I really do think a portion of people on the internet have taken to using neurotypical as shorthand for bad and neurodivergent as shorthand for good
I think that it is often reactionary. These people hurt me so I will hate them. But reality doesn't work that way. Neurodivergent people can be abusive and neurotypical people can be nice.
14:50 is really funny to me as i go to the grocery store at like 11pm (its a 24 hour store) and i will sometimes see women shopping like that. Though i tend to assume that they're getting some groceries on the way back from an event or something, not like theyre dressing Just To Be Seen at the grocery store. A lot of people who get glammed up do it earlier because it takes time. Why spend the time/energy/gas/money go home, dress in something more casual, and THEN go out and do whatever errands they need to do, when you can just do it on the way? Just like cosplayers at a convention might go out to eat in costume, because the restaurant might close in the time it takes for them to go to their hotel room and change.
I said the same thing at the same time :3 yeah exactly. And like just because high heels are terrifying and inefficient shoes, and just because they took me hours and hours and hours to learn to walk in, doesn't mean they're "a neurotypical thing" like you wanna see my dyspraxia just hand me a jump rope or one of those kick-and-spin things we had in the 90s (I have literally never succeeded more than two jumps on either).
also, thank you for making effort to resist the trend of turning ND into a consumer brand marked by "quirky individuality" rather than by disabilities and support needs in a society that badly needs Mutual Aid
neurodivergence is not shopping at hot topic 😅
Youre so right, I have met a lot of neurodivergent people who are deeply harmful and always use it as their excuse, as if I am not deeply neurodivergent myself. I get shut down when I try and push back on this behaviour and have left countless spaces due to it
As a raging green-haired, glitter-covered, ADHD sparkle beast, yeah, I don't get that comparison. Because while I love nothing better than to literally roll in myself in a rainbow, the autistic person nearest and dearest to me could not bear the idea of painting our shared laundry room bright yellow (so it stayed white). It would have been overstimulating for him. What feels good to a person really depends on their individual quirks.
It also reminds of the point I have tried to drive home to both bone-headed men and my judgemental mother. What other people choose to wear is not about the viewer. Whether the viewer finds something attractive or shocking may be a bonus, but the primary reason that people wear or do anything is to please themselves, or at least that should be the reason. Therefore, the viewer should keep their (unkind or creepy) comments to themselves, and turn their eyes elsewhere if they don't like what they see. It's not hard.
I agree with your video, I watched the other girl's video right after she posted it and I think she getting at was that she feels more comfortable with people in more alternative styles and the rest of the video is her justifying this. I too used to feel more comfortable around people in alternative styles because they seemed less judgmental, and people in these beige styles would usually bully me in high school. But these feelings are all appearance based judgement which are untrue, judging people on appearance is bad but when you've had experience with being bullied (which to be fair most neurodivergent people have experienced) It's hard not to have these judgements… we all have judgements we must work to dismantle. But this girl hasn't recognized that she is being judgmental yet, that's probably why she felt the need of justifying it by listing these stereotypes of neurotypical and neurodivergent people. I don't know if this made sense english isn't my first language and im dyslextic
I understand completely! I was bullied in school too, by people who dressed in more “mainstream” clothes, I was also bullied for not having the expensive sneakers & stuff when I was a kid. But I was also friends with ND kids who didn’t dress anything like me, who dressed neutrally. And I’ve been abused by people who had alternative styles, and to an extent, I was attracted to them because of those styles. So I think it’s dangerous to imply to an audience that “you can tell a lot about a person based on their aesthetic” - especially when that audience might include people who can sometimes take things a bit more literally. I do understand that it was said “in general” but I still feel that’s irresponsible. Thank you for your comment!
THANK YOU
Tumblr is FULL of this rhetoric. "Neurodivergent people are good and authentic and true and sincere and better and etc", "Neurotypical are weird and judgmental and they never say the truth and etc" and assuming X Y Z thing only happens to neurodivergent people and everyone agrees, and since neurotypical people aren't in those circles, it doesn't go corrected, or they think "oh maybe im neurodivergent" instead of questioning yk... the thought process behind that assumption.
It's frustrating.
Says someone w ADHD whose autistic friends also think might be autistic.
Once you notice this rhetoric, it's so obvious and so untrue.
Also, for the proper definition of the neurodivergent gaze you described... hell, Mob Psycho 100 IS very much a personification of that gaze. Not because ND people like it and ohhh anime, but because it reflects the struggles and daily life of a character who is very much coded as autistic, and the entire STORY feels like a metaphor. ACTS as a metaphor.
If the ND gaze exists, works like that should be understood through that term since it _reflects the reality of it,_ not silly (silly as in materialistic, NOT as in "weird-looking") fashion trends.
As a NT in those circles (just based on my hobbies and interests being those that seem to be more popular with neurodivergent people I assume. More of my friends are neurodivergent) I often will try to politely correct these statements just to hear "well my neurotypical bully at school does this" or "honey you're just neurodivergent". I know I'm neurotypical because I got told I wasn't so much in these spaces I did a lot of research, as well as spoke to a lot of my neurodivergent friends about their experiences and we were able to come to the conclusion that I am NT. These are kids who have understandably developed a them vs us mentality because of the alienation they've felt from their world. They often don't want to be corrected because this mentality brings them comfort in some way
These types get really pissy if you point out that Elon Musk is autistic and Ayn Rand probably was, too, because they're overly wedded to the idea that all neurospicy (especially autistic) people are sweet, innocent little lambs who are only ever victims of the cruel NTs. I was once muted in a (extremely toxic in retrospect) autism posting group for suggesting that most incels were neurodivergent, because the group admin had decreed that incels were BAD PEOPLE, period, and suggesting that some of them might be neurodivergent was "excusing" their behavior. I think this is a dangerous notion to entertain.
That last ten minutes is so useful. I think people might also find Michael Suileabhain-Wilson's Five Geek Social Fallacies useful. In this internet essay, the author talks about how social groups can end up regularly dealing with a variety of issues that make it difficult to maintain a healthy community, due to having been socially excluded in the past. As a result, they can have trouble with things like figuring out how friendships work, for example.
I think this is an important starting point for people who have been marginalized and seek to build and maintain community.
Why *aren't* all my friends friends though? They should just fix that.
thanks for pointing to the essay, this is something I didn't know I needed but subconsciously I think I've been wanting for a long time
Thank you. I needed a palette censer after being recommended that video. For some darn reason I expected it to be something other than "let's be judgy about peoples fashion choices, because being judgy is fun". I guess I expected autistic woman to think and learn more not just... Rehash the beauty influencers dumbest ideas... I'm learning that thoughtfulness is not in fact an autistic trait - just a human one.
so glad someone's talking about this! her video rubbed me the wrong way but she said she was deleting some of the more controversial comments so i had no idea if i was alone!
Such a solid, well-reasoned perspective here.
Thank you!
My best friend for more than a decade now is neurotypical and she’s literally the most wonderful, empathetic, caring and thoroughly decent person I’ve ever met. Everything those aspie supremacists don’t think is possible. I’ve never felt so seen as I do when we’re together. Her fella is autistic like me, so hanging out with them both is so awesome.
It tells us a lot about the kind of people they have been surrounded by. The neurotypicals just happened to be bad people.
@@Ozzianman My parents were neurodivergent and very abusive. I think lots of people, especially autistic people, want to know an easy way to tell if someone is safe or not. But there is no easy way. People that want to harm people will dress or act a certain way so people trust them when they shouldn't. I try to get to know people slowly so that I can see warning signs. But it is especially difficult to read people if we have autism.
Choosing to not conform to the status quo is still a choice informed by said status quo, they are not escaping the "male gaze" like they think they are. I feel like the best pratice is just to not care actually. I used to monitor myself all the time as if I were observed all the time whether it was because I wanted to conform or not and I still do somewhat but it's far more freeing to just be and only care about your own comfort.
Love your videos so much. They just make so much sense... I know that sounds daft but I cant think of another way to put it.
aww, cheers!
that "i immediately feel safe around ppl who look like this" tiktok is crazy. clearly you've never been bullied by an entire group of ppl who look like that who think it's okay to call you slurs as soon as you disagree w them
Neurodivergent gaze ❌
Neurodivergent gays ✅
❤
I am guilty of oftentimes staying in the same social media circles online and alternating between watching the same handful of creator's videos. I was therefore honestly hesitant to click on this video as well. I think its similar to how Ive been watching the same couple comfort movies and shows on loop for years too, I tend to find it distressing to not know what to expect and also, to be honest, having to filter information and making your own judgements can be more tiring than deciding on a handful creators that you trust and just letting them do the thinking for you. I watched the video that you're referring to here first without thinking too much of it. Now having watched this video, it has encouraged me to confront my own biases that I unknowingly picked up over time being in these online communities. The generalising tendency of these spaces is seldom actually helpful, thank you for bringing that to my attention.
This video was great! Thanks for posting and researching this, looking forward to your next one
thank u!
I agree with your uncle that it's clothes of the group and time. RAMONES wore t-shirts, jeans, jackets, and sunglasses. It was easy, affordable, comfortable, and available. All around scrappy for scrappy venues. Your uncle sounds cool .
16:35 I used to have ♭00♭s and slept in a bra to combat dysphoria. Got nightmares when I didn't. I switched over to t-shirts when I realized that somewhat worked as well, but honestly bras worked better, and you're not allowed to sleep in binders. Maybe in my sleep I felt nothing strapping it down and subconsciously interpreted that as 'oh no, everyone must be able to see'.
But now I don't have to worry about any of that anymore, huzzah! Haven't had a dysphoria nightmare since the day I got it chopped off.
Congrats on the teet yeet 🎉
@@stephanieok5365 Thank you! :)
This was a really thoughtful response!
thank you so much!
Gardening is neurotypical? Yay I'm neurotypical now!
Every day my choice to never download tiktok gets reaffirmed
Gays? 0:15 oh, okay
Frankly I’ve been proven right about people enough times to just default to keeping my “polite not nice” mask up long enough to determine if someone is an asshole. But I will admit I had an experience that frankly just solidified my distaste, a girl who told me “maybe if you dressed more like me people and boys would like you” I told her “thanks but I wouldn’t want people to think I’m like you”
the exhausted quiet disappointment and irritation in your voice as if you've explained this a hundred times but still refuse to actually shout is so captivating, it brings home your points so well
It makes me think of a friend who is blond blue eyes and quite classical feminine style of clothes, she studied gender study in uni, and didn’t understand why she only made one friend while others would subtly reject her, then she learned by her unique friend that everyone in this class thought that she was far-right just based on her style, other people here wouldn’t wear feminine clothes, they d have piercings and coloured or short hair. She was quite sad to be judged on her looks by people who are supposedly feminists.
Happened to me too, I have a friend whose group of friends are very into like D&D, BDSM and medieval kind of looks, and a few of them are quite mean to me and I know it’s because I don’t look like them, I m quite classical feminine, and I like and wear some fashion trends. One of those people said that no one here was normal, and that the only one who seems normal in the room was me, which is contradictory in itself.
Anyway I m doing autistic diagnosis now, pretty sure I m not but if I am I would still dress the same, I know people from every social groups judge me on my looks and some underestimate me just based on it, but I think it’s fun to observe and makes me see how people are, beyond the surface.
Ooh, that wardrobe tour felt like coming home! :) (I have similarly planned my wardrobe so I don't have to plan what to wear.)
This is a great video. I'm getting really frustrated with the generalisations too. When I first saw the neurodivergent gaze discussions I thought it would be building on the clinical gaze or applying that to educators or something. Really looking forward to your Aspie supremacy video. (also cackling at deleting tweets, because "that's an option" , wish more people would.
15:24 I’m actually a subscriber and regular viewer of this creators content. I believe I watched a couple minutes of this video before clicking away because I couldn’t help but be slightly offended. I’ve learned a lot from watching her videos and she (and yosamdysam) helped me discover, accept and love my neurodivergent mind that has held nothing but contempt and loathing for my inability to be neurotypical. I am an AuDHDer, as this content creator, and have dressed in both of these “cores” throughout my life, but am more authentically me in quirky/androgyny/whatever makes me happy. When I dressed in a “neurotypical” fashion with overdoing my make up and outfits for mundane activities, I was desperately trying to fit into the category of “ideal woman” as prescribed by the society, family and religion (Mormonism) that I was born into and I was personally miserable, but mostly accepted by others through mental and physical masking performances. I knew I wasn’t just a girl since I was 4, describing myself as first a tomboy and then later a masculine woman, but didn’t have the language until last year at age 36 to describe how I truly felt, I’m bigender and I’m happy knowing I’m not simply broken. I put on the front of toxic femininity to cover up how much of a dude I really am and it made my life suck. But when other neurodivergent people reinforce toxic physical or aesthetic attributes and being so judgey is really disheartening because I’ve been that girl people rag on for glamming up for “no reason”, when the real reason was because was terrified of being perceived in anyway masculine due to societal pressures.
I really appreciate this thorough explanation of Gaze.
But oh god those tiktoks are so grim
Thanks for this video! It really called me out on the judgemental things I think sometimes.
New video on my birthday!! Super looking forward to your take / research on this topic.
I totally understand the anxiety around being seen as making a response video because of the reputation of Internet discourse as being somewhat toxic and the association with call-out videos. Think it’s smart to make it clear that you want to distance yourself from those associations. That being said, there’s nothing inherently wrong with making a video in response to another person‘s video or multiple videos. This is how communities heal and improve, our community needs someone like you to respond to internal discourse like this. The vast, vast majority of viewers will neither judge you for making a “response video” nor go after the creators it was made in response to. :)
"so I deleted that post, because that's an option" im subscribing
Honestly,, I'd be interested to hear analysis of pieces of art that exemplify the neurodivergent and neurotypical gazes. That sounds really interesting!
This conversation brings me back to my middle school self. I was a punk-rock kid in the 2000's and I was convinced that the normal popular kids were all posers without any actual style.
I have grown out of that and I now see the slander of normal culture as stemming from insecurity and a feeling of being an outsider. I get it. This adhd brain felt that STRONGLY. But once I was able to let that go, I have been able to enjoy SO much more in life.
I really like how you structure your argument and the video in general it was really easy to follow your thoughts and the connection between them
Edit: You've addressed the negligible damage from TikTok in the closing moments of your essay. Nice! I will say that since TikTok has created all of these micro-trends and topics, I've felt sliced and diced and, overall, more analysed and targeted (by recommendations and marketing) than ever before. I almost prefer the days when the extent of it was "you're like Sheldon Cooper"
Great points. I believe that the proliferation of anti-neurotypical sentiment is simply a byproduct of engagement algorithms that do not discern between positive and negative engagement. I don't use vertical video platforms, but I notice a marked difference between my interpretation and application of neurodivergence, compared to that of my friends who are heavily engaged in micro-influencer spheres.
Creating a culture divide (or infinitely many) is a surefire way to get people spending more time on social media platforms, and perhaps accidentally clicking ads. Not to mention that it allows marketers to target demographics with increasingly concentrated resolution. Polarisation and narcissism are becoming increasingly prominent issues. In the words of Terence McKenna, "culture is not your friend."
I'm at the end of the video...maybe the other videos I've seen from that RUclipsr or others on the topic weren't very useful either. Honestly, it's difficult because I watched videos on neurodivergence because I felt alone and was looking for support, a community... but I don't want to get harmful ideas into my head that instead of helping me cause me even more problems 😭
Really glad I clicked on this video. Appreciate the nuances you dive into and it connects some dots for me in being uncomfortable with the us vs. them that can develop in online autism content. It can really clash with my ideals on love and community. I also see some correlation to ideas Paulo Freire talks about in Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Excellent work and great food for thought while continuously exploring my own neurotype.
As regards people changing their behaviour or appearance to fit in with certain expectations I think it's important to distinguish between those people who do it for self-protection. e.g. from bullying, and those who do it for more cynical motives such as career advantage. The first type is unfortunately often very necessary, the second type is rather more troubling.
I was going to include a section where I talk about the dangers of looking at masking through the lens of “being fake” but I forgot 😭
Agreed, but at the same time I feel career advantage should be seen as self preservation in the. Y'know. Capitalist world we live in. Especially when women and other minorities do far worse in this world. I guess an example I'd think of more would be to fit in with a certain group of people, without threat of harassment or anything like that if you don't
This video is so thought provoking. Tysm for making this
Glad you liked it! ☺️
This is very well done and thought through. Thank you for taking so much time and effort in making and sharing this. Much appreciated
This video made me think about a lot. I admit I’ve been subject to liking these videos on tiktok about the “neurotypical vs. neurodivergent gaze!” possibly due to some internalized feelings of self doubt. Like I’ve been trying to follow these rules so I can be a valid neurodivergent person…which I realize how inauthentic it’s made me in spite of the desired message of want to push “being authentic to yourself!” Growing up, I always KNEW I was neurodivergent. I possessed a lot of traits that made it very difficult to adapt to social settings which caused me distress, only to find out were autism and ADHD. It’s paradoxical how now that I’ve gotten older I’ve doubted and even invalidated my own neurodivergence because the ND community is kind of gatekeepy, and if you don’t “do this a certain way you’re immediately doing it for the neurotypical/male gaze” (…I’m a lesbian and I’ve been accused of this lol) I can’t help that I really enjoy fashion, and my fashion sense has notes of both“neurodivergent” and “neurotypical” elements. Also, I have friend groups! People have doubted I was autistic for this even though it still came with difficulties due to my limitations. I’m just trying to do me without feeling confined to any societal pressures of belonging somewhere besides doing it for myself and my comfort. This video made me aware of how much I’ve been doubting my neurodivergence and that I’m still valid even if I don’t possess these arbitrary traits created by people who want to make themselves feel superior.
this is my first time watching one of your videos. Thank you for giving me a perspective I hadn't yet heard about. I also had no idea depression caused physical trauma
Loving your video tho, very objective and unbiased
Thank you so much, I'll rewatch because it was full of gems. We all are different in our own ways but need to be there for each other, barriers are always dangerous
There are so many film terms that have been taken out of context and applied to every day life- male gaze, bechdel-Wallace test (which started as a silly joke between friends), I’m sure there are others but I cannot think of them.
It’d be funny if we did that with other random film terms. “That guy got so drunk he was walking at a Dutch angle all night”
Edit: red and green together have to be my least favorite but black and navy together drives me nuts as well haha
I was really happy to hear the discussion towards the end (second half? last third? third quarter?) of this video! Since I've been like, engaging in autistic and neurodivergent spaces as a, I guess peer instead of "interested but cautious-about-my-role presumed third party", I've definitely struggled with various strains of like, 2020s gussied-up aspie supremacy or even just general unwillingness/lack of motivation to be rigorous and critical about difficult questions around the nature of disability, neurodivergence, the contentious but vital relationships all disabled people can have with medicine/medical care/medical practitioners, etc., and even worse, when having conversations about what the actual material stakes are of adopting/acting on one ideological framework or another in response to these questions. (christ that was a run-on)
even really useful concepts like the double empathy problem or the social model of disability get used as weird rhetorical bludgeons, as though they provide a single unassailable answer to a manifold structure that was never even in the form of a question.
it's really frustrating when layered over all the other difficulties of navigating communication with multiple people. but it's also upsetting because i know there are similar things i've navigated at various points (e.g. early out queer/trans days me wandered into some VERY lazy takes) but i can't just hand that emotional processing over to other people and have any expectation of it interfacing right or "cleaving" for them in the way it did for me.
anyway sorry this got long and probably mostly for me but hey. pleasant, regardless.
I appreciated your video. I was an alternative rock kid in the 90s, and around '98 I had to move from the city to this small, outdoorsy town. I dreaded the move because everyone dressed the same. Turns out that people were super friendly and genuine in a way that I hadn't experienced before. I see really expressive ND folks and I feel kind of jealous of their style, because I used to value that kind of expression, but as an autistic person I've come to value sensory comfort and simplicity more.
I had this discussion recently. I said that neurodivergent people seemed more often to be into alternative clothing and alternative easthetics. Then the other person said it was wrong of me to assume every artistic or alternative person would be neurodivergent. But i did not say that. Its hard to grasp for people. And for me it only seems natural that many neurodivergent think act and dress out of the box. Thats the whole point we were not wired to fit in the box.
It like saying most taxidermists seem to really love animals and the other person saying; its bad to assume every person who loves animals is a taxidermist. Only example i could think of for now sorry
I think it matters in what context you're speaking: talking to a friend in generalities is different from making advocacy content where you generalize so much as to be stretching the truth. "Neurodivergent people are often more likely to like alternative style" is also different from "We can call this style The Neurodivergent Aesthetic".
And the style in question is also a very narrow view of "alternative" and I also rather think that there are a lot of neurodivergent people creating & driving mainstream fashion.
It would be wrong to say that "most neurodivergent people like ___ clothes" as per the taxidermist example, it's not true that "most" do - not globally. "We might be more likely to"? Yea, sure.
You get me?
@@Ember_Green nope dont get it XD i am also one of "those" people that says eey seems like there are a lot of neurodivergent people in the lgbt+ and genderdiverse groups.
Here's the thing: we (nd people) have always been there. But since neurodivergence gets more talked about now, more and more elderly people find out they're nd. And 99% in this age group don't dress in an "alternative" manner. Doesn't make them less nd.
@@klaustrophobic3643Right, I think that’s a bit different though. Because I think being queer is something you are whereas what you dress and what you like are things that you do. Also the link between gender diverse people and ASD has been / is being studied. But the stuff with clothing and “aesthetic” hasn’t been and can’t be studied cause it’s just vibes and judgment based
@@Lukee-22234 i only say that from the group that are dressed differently an awfull lot seem neurodivergent.
I like this video, you really did a good job sitting down and reevaluating a narrative that feels good but may not be good if you look into it. I definitely fell for this line of thinking just from my own experiences, but I've come to learn, especially for someone like myself who has a slew of problems. Autism, ADHD, BPD, OCD, CPTSD, and the like (diagnosed - since it matters, but doesn't diminish the experiences of diagnosed people) I have realized. Fuck man, I have the same capability to do harm and mental loops that, in fact, cause me to harm. This makes it way harder to be my friend since I will cause problems where people without my illnesses wouldn't with no balancing plus side... like. There may be some marginal bonus, but it is far outweighed by the difficulty of navigating my behaviors. So... I find community with those who know these loops. Experience the negatives as a baseline assumption with very easy times navigating them so we both come out the other end more connected and enjoying the benefit with minimal negative. That's my theory on why the landscape is the way it is... Though, I am currently writing this with no self-analysis or critique in a Stream of Consciousness style with minor edits in the moment as this whole video opened my brain up to new concepts I will eagerly grapple with for the upcoming days. Great video!
This is a really interesting video, and it made me question a few assumptions of mine. It reminds me of a lot of a discussion that happens in the queer community about whether or not people can look queer. I think its tricky -- on one hand, I understand the benefit of separating something like sexual orientation or neurotype from appearance and asserting that the two are completely unrelated.
On the other hand though ... To me it can feel a bit limiting to prevent people from discussing real patterns they see in their own community and the effects this perception has on our lives. Because the reality is that no matter how many times we say "the way to look gay is to be gay and put on an outfit", the reality is, some people are FAR more likely to be perceived as queer than other people which can lead to a very different lived experience. And those people who are frequently perceived as queer generally *are* queer. Its not just a totally random stereotype. In the case of queer people I find that this sentiment about queer not having a "look" often is used to minimize the experiences of people who are visibly gender nonconforming or to discount the connections between appearance and identity for many people.
I definitely have seen patterns of styles in the autistic community as well, and I wonder if just saying we shouldn't discuss them because it doesn't apply universally is really the solution.
I think there is a lot of complexity in how these patterns occur, its a combination of queer/autistic people often being in communities together, shared experiences of feeling othered, a desire to find like minded people, different things being more valued by different groups, even shared sensory needs or ways of experiencing things etc. There might be value in discussing some of these trends, especially if it helps people get insight into their communities & history.
This is a very valid and balanced take, thanks for sharing!
the only time it is ok to assume something about a person based on the clothes they are wearing is when it's a fictional character and they were dressed by a costume designer, in a piece of media that cares to communicate things through production design. but that's because fictional reality has different rules than actual reality, and even then you might end up having your assumptions subverted. but that's - again - a fiction thing.
So ready for this. - S.
I really appreciate your definition of neurodivergent + neurotypical and the examples you gave of how you use these terms. I've (to my own detriment lol) gotten into arguments with people who are really resistant to the inclusion of mental illness, neurological disorders, etc in neurodivergence. A popular impression seems to be that this is a static state of being, thus the supposedly always curable mental illnesses and neurological disorders are not relevant. Neurodivergence, to my understanding, was not originally intended to only include a small list of diagnosis (or that it was ever meant to specify diagnosis). I've seen fears of association with 'bad' people (you know the pop psych nonsense). Again coming back to this moralization of neurodivergence as good, pure, and at times perpetuating a model minority standard. And a general bunch of sanism. Maybe also resistance to making disability a part of the definition. of course every individual is entitled to how they identify but we don't benefit from ignoring that many of us are disabled and that disability does not make us needing of being 'fixed'.
I think mad liberation and the neurodiversity movement can coexist. or at least that we as people can share experiences and goals with our advocacy.
sorry if this sounds all over the place I'm on mobile and it's hard to look back over what I wrote.
(Edit: Mm.. I wrote this messy comment before you went on to summarize this much more nicely lol)
I don't understand why some autistic people are so keen to stress that autism isn't a mental illness. They are right. It is not. But most autistic people have one or more mental illnesses.