Это видео недоступно.
Сожалеем об этом.
What to Think About Before Converting to Catholicism or Orthodoxy (w/ Dr. Gavin Ortlund)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 6 дек 2020
- Are you a Protestant who's considering becoming Catholic or Orthodox? Here's what Dr. Gavin Ortlund would have you consider first.
Check out the full interview: • How to be Deep in Hist...
Dr. Ortlund's Channel: / @truthunites
Support Gospel Simplicity:
Patreon: / gospelsimplicity
Merch: www.teespring.c...
Follow Gospel Simplicity on Social Media:
Facebook: / gospelsimplicity
Instagram: / gospelsimplicity
Twitter: / gsplsimplicity
About me:
Hey! My name is Austin, and I'm a 21 year old guy with a passion for people. I believe the good news is that God is better than we could've ever hoped, and I love sharing this message of grace and love with anyone that will listen. I'm the former Digital Marketing and Video Production Coordinator at a large, evangelical church in Frederick, MD, and I'm currently a student at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, IL. When I'm not writing papers or making RUclips videos, I do freelance work as a Wedding Photographer/Videographer and social media consultant. On any given day you can find me with my nose in a book or a guitar in my hands. Want to get to know me more? Follow me and say hi on Instagram at: @austin.suggs
Send Me Books or Other Things if You’d like:
Austin Suggs
820 N. La Salle Dr.
CPO 123
Chicago, IL 60610
Video Stuff:
Camera: Canon 80d
Lens: Sigma 17-50 F2.8
Edited in FCPX
Music:
Bowmans Root - Isaac Joel
I definitely agree with his point on romanticizing the church, and the whole “grass is greener” thing. However as an Orthodox Christian I would like to point out that the idea of coming at Christianity with a sort of cold, forensic view presupposes Western thought in itself. In the East we emphasize the importance of the heart. There’s no amount of books that can sufficiently explain what it means to be part of God’s Kingdom, but this is exactly what our Divine Liturgy hopes to communicate.
We are not anti-intellectual, we just see logic and reason as simply one aspect of what it means to be a theologian and a Christian.
Interesting feedback. Thanks!
in my study of Eastern Orthodoxy, they appeal to the mystic aspects of God more than the Catholics or the Protestants do. I have high respect for Orthodox Christianity, but I can never ever come to terms with their notion against the doctrine of original sin and even Jesus himself was sinful. I can understand their perspective but will I will never agree with that. There are a lot more reasons but those two are probably my biggest problems that prevents me from becoming an Orthodox.
@@junkim5853 Orthodoxy does hold to original or "ancestral" sin, but has a slightly different understanding of it than Roman Catholics. For Roman Catholicism Original Sin in part means the "inheritance" of the guilt of Adam by every human, while in Orthodoxy guilt is not inherited - only the fallen condition is "inherited": the fact that it is easy to sin and hard to do good; the death; the struggle; the deterioration. Guilt itself is aquired individually entirely through each person's own doing. Hope this at least helps to clear things up a bit.
@@junkim5853 I'm curious as to where you heard that Jesus himself was sinful?
I agree with everything he just said. Take the best expression of each perspective and compare. Do not have unrealistic fantasies about things being perfect. Definitely study the theology and follow the truth where it leads with no fear of the outcome. I appreciate that Dr. Ortlund wasn't a disrespectful jerkface. Many others would've handled this in a completely awful way.
Converting to Catholicism today is like joining the Titanic after it hit the iceberg. Ignoring the fact that Rome has denied the gospel officially since Trent, your church is on a downward spiral towards liberalism.
Heck, we have those problems too. But Catholic apologists have been selling a bill of goods for years about unity and truth etc that doesn't exist. They've been (I hope) unintentionally lying for years.
@@aGoyforJesus The CC has denied the gospel since Trent is a Protestant propaganda. A simple examination of the CC's dogmas today and the Early Church will dispel this piece of fake news.
In a Church, Catholic or Protestant, there are always the left and right wing. Focusing on the Liberal left of the CC and says its sinking there is what "Halo Effect" is
www.nngroup.com/articles/halo-effect/
So glad you enjoyed it Keith. I really appreciate when people aren’t “disrespectful jerkfaces” too. Sometimes that’s harder to find than you would think. Dr. Ortlund is a great, honest guy. I’m cohosting an episode of The Cordial Catholic soon with Kevin, and Dr. Ortlund and Joe Heschmeyer will be discussing church history. Should be fun!
@@aGoyforJesus interesting choice to respond to this comment from a long standing Protestant pastor who very recently converted to Catholicism
@@josephgoemans6948 I've interacted with his stuff in the past. Being a former anything doesn't make someone immune from critique. ruclips.net/video/7Uufzm_PzGw/видео.html
My grandma left catholicism when she became Christian. Praise God! Grew up as a pastors kid. We love the Lord and the Word of God❤❤😊
I converted into Catholicism. I used to be Protestant. I have seen that most converts into Catholicism have come through rigurous studying and reasoning. I am glad to be Catholic.
What convinced you to become catholic given that there is no office of a papacy or the Marian dogmas in the NT?
Thanks for sharing!
@@englishlearningcenter1470 Did you know?
“There were four views of the Eucharist in the early church. In his magnum opus, History of the Christian Church, historian Philip Schaff (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume 2, [Hendrickson Publishers, 2010], pp. 241-245; Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume 3, [Hendrickson Publishers, 2010], pp. 494-500) documents the four views the early church held in regards to the way in which Christ was associated with the bread and wine. You had the
(1) mystical view of Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Cyril of Jerusalem which said the body and blood of Jesus are mystically in union with the elements leading to a sort of repetition of the incarnation, though no change in substance actually takes place as in later Romanism;
(2) the symbolic view of Tertullian, Cyprian, Eusebius, Gregory Nazianzen, Macarius the Elder, Theodoret, Augustine and Gelasius which said the Eucharist symbolizes the body and blood of Jesus and is a commemoration, not Rome’s literalistic transubstantiation;
(3) the allegorical or spiritual view of Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Athanasius which said the believer receives the spiritual but not physical blood and life of Jesus at Mass; and
(4) the literalistic view of Hilary, Ambrose and Gaudentius which affirmed the bread and wine as being the literal transformed body and blood of Jesus which is basically in line with the modern Roman Catholic system. The Roman view is in the minority, while the symbolic and mystical views seem to be the most primitive and popular.”
BTW- none of the apostles ever taught that Mary is your mother.
@@Justas399 regarding thte Eucharist it is clear that Jesus said so than it must be.
Regarding Mary, Jesus entrusted her to an Apostle. So deal with it.
@@englishlearningcenter1470 Jesus said He was a door. Is He a literal wooden door?
True. Jesus did entrust Mary to John. Not sure how that makes her your mother since John is not the church.
I'm Orthodox.
It is true that people should not convert FOR the aesthetics. In fact we warn against that all the time because, well, once you get used to it and that big wow factor you experienced the first time fades, you are still left with a conflicting theology because theology is not the concern here. Such people often end up hopping around as they find something new they like.
However it is also important to remain that a lot of the aesthetics (or lack thereof), the things practiced are often done, and have developed as a direct result of that theology, outlook and understanding.
I love the Orthodox liturgy now, but as a guy who enjoyed playing electric guitar in the worship band before that, I initially found the liturgy pretty intimidating. The prayer, spiritual practices, theology and philosophy of Orthodoxy had a lot more to do with the initial draw.
That's a good, balanced response
As a Roman Catholic, I think that you have made some good distinctions.
It makes sense if they convert just for the liturgy because they must be able to feel all of the grace that comes from God during the liturgy. The liturgy is the most powerful prayer we have. Angels appear with the saints as well. If you are experiencing this then go for it.
That is a very important comment you made. I can see a similar issue within the Catholic church where people are drawn to the Tridentine Mass because it _looks and feels great_ . This is, of course, an important factor but it can't be the *only* factor. Not to mention, some of those _trad_ Catholics feel they're in the right, better club and the Novus Ordo Mass is somehow inferior, wrong, whereas, in fact, it's still an exactly the same and 100% valid liturgy.
Speaking as a month-old convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, my experience with protestant liturgy and Orthodox liturgy has been very different. The high protestant liturgies I attended were beautiful, but there was always a sense of "putting on a show", whereas in Orthodox liturgy, I always sensed more sincerity. I know this isn't everyone's experience, though.
That's interesting feedback
Welcome home, Daniel! 🙏☦️
Pretty close to my experience of orthodox liturgy. Every aspect of the liturgy has a meaning and a witness. However familiarity breeds contempt as the saying goes so that it is important that Orthodox laity are aware of why they do things in liturgy and why the clergy inquired do things in liturgy because everything is a witness to God and His glory. If you have forgotten what that witness is all the "smells and bells" are just empty ritual instead of being visible signs of God's grace and Jis work within us.
Orthodox Convert- for me it was the completion of a lifetime journey. I felt I was “home” . The liturgy is complete.
I'm catholic, but I agree... our churches are more reverent
The liturgy is not "Aesthetics" the whole point of the liturgy is to partake in the eternal sacrifice of the Cross for the forgiveness of sins and the supper of the Lord. That is the greatest gift that Christ left.
It is true that many parts of the liturgies are created from other parts of the tradition and not directly from Christ but all of the liturgy comes from the Bible. Though the consecration is the greatest miracle.
plus as he said there are a lot of protestants that are highly liturgical
There is only One Sacrifice and One Offering, by One high Priest, Christ. The Lord Jesus Jesus was crucified between two thieves, and God accepted his propitation for sin 2000 years ago. Jesus is truly Divine and truly human, with a real human body. Human bodies are in one place at a time, not multiple places. And rhe scriptures call it bread, and Thomas knew Christ was physically resurrected by seeing the wounds and touching the wounds, and Jesus ate fish and said 'A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you SEE that I have' but if the bread is 'not bread' then our senses are not and the proof of Jesus physical Resurection is undermined, is it not? The Scripture says bread, our senses say bread, not 'the accidents of bread but not bread' or 'looks like bread but its not bread.' Read 1 Corinthiand 11. The bread which we break, is it jo the communion if the body of Christ? So there is bread that is broken, and eaten. Jesus took bread and said take Eat. - did the apostles obey and eat the bread he took, or did they try to eat bread but suddenly there was 'no bread'? So transsubstantion contradicts the Scripture and our God given senses, and withiut transubstantion, the idea of an 'eternal sacrifice' doesnt even make any sense - as the only propitiation for our sins is the death of Christ on the cross, only Jesus death satisifes God's justice, not our suffering in purgatory and not 'offering' a Sacrifice that has already been offered and can only be offered by One, the Lord Jesus Christ, who had an unchangable and untransferable priesthood. We can only offer spiritual sacrifices, not literal true Sacrifice that appeases the wrath of God, which is what our Savior Christ did and Him alone. God doesnt need a reminder of the one True Sacrifice that He has already accepted, and only that sacrifice takes away sin, so there is forgivrness of sins, and no more offering and no more sacrifice. One sacrifice, one offering, one high priest - read the letter to the Hebrews. Jesus was crucified between two thieves, not someplace 'in eternity.'
So let me ask you this question. Are you all atoning for sins during the "partaking of the eternal sacrifice"?
High Church Protestantism like Lutheranism and Reformed (Presbyterian and Continental Reformed) would also say that by participatig in the sacraments, we are also being united to Christ eternal life and participating in it some way. This is very clear in Westminster section about Communion. Nothing particular to EO or Catholicism here.
Another great video. Because I belong to an Anglican Ordinariate parish, I know a number of people, including our pastor and and clergy that were committed Protestant Christian clergy (and lay leaders) that have become Catholic. Because they had so much to lose by becoming Catholic, they searched desperately for any way they could stay Protestant. Becoming Catholic was the last thing they wanted to do. Many of them made the journey in the face of losing everything and everyone they knew. I have such deep respect for anyone who makes that journey of conscience so carefully.
I definitely did not want to be Catholic. I avoided it for 5 years, but God has a sense of humor. 😂
I'd love to visit an Anglican Ordinariate Parish sometime.
We can do the same for protestants growing up in Catholic families let's not try to intentionally or unintentionally claim victimhood because any side can easily claim so. I am sure not all Protestants especially pastors converting to Catholicism is for money but I know many Protestant pastors when they converted to Catholicism got a high position in the Catholic Church and now earns $170,000 year teaching young bachelor students Christian theology, much more money than they earned as a Protestant Pastor. The general average a Catholic theologian, priests, cardinal, and more make compared to a Protestant Pastor and more is unimaginable.
@@jedfoster3155 God has a great sense of humor. This has been the testimony of many converts to the Catholic faith.
@@junkim5853 fact check, please. I looked up theology professor pay ranges at Notre Dame, Catholic Univ, Loyola Marymount and all three had salary ranges far below $170k. If you have many pastor friends who converted to Catholicism, sounds like you might do well to follow their lead and Come Home. Just sayin'...
This is great advice. I left the Mormon church 2.5 years ago so I would say that my search for truth started from a very basic starting point. I attended an evangelical church a few months later and the pastor there did a great job in teaching me about the Trinity which is not taught in Mormonism. He also baptized me a Christian. However, as I asked more and more questions about soteriology, sola scriptura, the role that a pastor plays in the life of a layman and so forth, I noticed too many glaring holes in not only theology but also ecclesiology.
My questions then changed to what the early church believed. The last thing that I wanted was to be under the thumb of another authoritative figure while I was going through this process so I was immediately put off by anything Roman Catholic or Eastern Christian. Those two faiths also required so much more from their lay people when compared to the evangelical church that I was attending and they gave me some of the same vibes that the Mormon church gave with all of its requirements.
However in the end after answering all of my questions and after much prayer, and removing some pride from within me, I have decided to join the E.O. faith (though Roman Catholicism came in second place but just like you seem to think, the current view of who the pope is and who the pope was in the early church are not the same) . Again, this is where my faith journey has ended and it’s not meant to demean any other faiths or people’s choice on where they worship.
From what I can see and have accepted, being E.O. will be much more inconvenient than if I would’ve remained in the evangelical church. I will have a person that I will help me (and will hear) when confessing my sins to God, I will be fasting tons, I will submit to the bishop that over the diocese I reside in, and so on. I am totally at peace with this. The “smells and bells” thing is just the cherry on top for me.
Praise God for your baptism and entrance into the church! Thanks for sharing your story. I really enjoyed reading it. God bless!
Glory to God, Alex! And welcome home!
My mother-in-law is Latayne C Scott. Her first book, "The Mormon Mirage," was edited by Father Peter Gillquist of blessed memory; in fact he was who got Zondervan to publish it! Interestingly enough he was on his journey into Orthodoxy while she was on her way out of Mormonism. His book, "Becoming Orthodox," and her relationship with him was a huge plus when my wife (her daughter) and I joined the Church. I love your story! Thanks for sharing!!
@@innocentgreen1338 thank you. I never thought I would end up converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. I remember very clearly telling myself that it was not an option yet here I am. I've never been so excited and at peace than I am now. I've never longed for anything as bad as I now long to partake of the Eucharist. It's crazy.
@@AlexSaavy yes! I understand! I wrote the first four times I received the Eucharist!
This is one of the most beautiful and sane replies I have seen for this particular video. I was raised in baptized a Southern Baptist became Roman Catholic in college and converted to Eastern Orthodoxy in the '80s. It was a journey of many years. When I started as a senior in high school I had no idea where it would eventually lead me. I truly believe that God let me in the path that led me to orthodoxy. It is where God speaks more clearly to me. Someone else in the long train of comments to this video replied about the comment on smells and bells and the outward aspects of the liturgy that this could be novelty that would attract the newbie. That actually these are not just aesthetic features. Every act of Orthodox worship is a witness to God and His glory and has meaning. Although I was a little put off by a video
After the tragic death of our son, I found the Protestant church that I was brought up in and that we were attending at the time would not or could not meet the emotional and religious spiritual needs that we so desperately were seeking to bring us some peace in our loss. It's as though we were brushed aside and expected to return to the normal actions and attitudes from before his death. I walked away from that church and on top of our grief I was destitute to find God again. After several years of searching, listening, being led by the spirit, and having almost supernatural guidance for my path I found my way to the Orthodox Church. I have found a place of peace, a place where I am challenged as a Christian everyday in my faith walk, in my prayer life and my relationship to my Lord.
Should we really use people as the reasons to leave the faith and to convert into another sect of Christianity? After all, aren't all Christians defined by what they believe not by their church?
Suffering transforms our lives completely. I am sorry for your loss and sorrow. I will pray for you.
welcome. I see you experienced how superficial is protestant pseudochristianity.
How did your son die ?
I have had two brothers die
I had a similar experience, although it wasn't a death but another series of horrific events. I had been a conservative Protestant for 50 years, and considered myself a devout Protestant. Yet when confronted with this series of events, I found that my Protestant theology (and understand that the theology of my denomination was NOT "Christianity-lite" OR a "health and wealth"...it was pretty solid, conservative, traditional Baptist- not complete pink cotton candy fluff) simply did not prepare me for the fact that Christians can suffer genuine horror; suffer in ways that change them emotionally/mentally/physically for the rest of their lives; and suffer in ways that seem almost illogical if we believe in the goodness of God. I am not "completely Orthodox" yet, but within Orthodoxy there is the underlying fact (it's painted on the walls in the forms of saints and martyrs) that sometimes traumatic, horrific (in the true sense of the word "horror") and unspeakable things can and do happen to Christians. Christianity is about "growing up" into (or perhaps uncovering) the maturity of Christ; and that is honestly not always an easy or painless process. Maybe it never is.
I appreciate my evangelical background, but ultimately I was convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith. Nevertheless, I have friends and family who have not as yet been called into the Catholic Faith. Jesus is the shepherd. He knows what we need and when we need it.
Thank you a helpful way to think about it
Pray the Rosary and ask mother Mary to convert them to one true Catholic Church. She will lead all God’s children towards her son Jesus Christ.
@@hcho7776 True! If someone asks for the conversion of a soul through rosary consistently, it would definitely happen..
Welcome Home😍AVE MARIA
As a Catholic convert from Protestantism, I have to disagree that most convert for the smells and bells. RCIA is no joke. It’s a 9 month weekly commitment and if it was just for the smells and bells would most really do that? I’m sure some do. But I think the vast majority realize they truth of the Eucharist or realize that the many splits in Protestantism just don’t seem right and we need some cohesiveness under authority.
I was from a very traditional, conservative Methodist background with liturgy and stained glass windows and candles..so I already had the smells and bells. But I didn’t have the Eucharist or the peace I had in the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Fair points
Hopefully you realize rejecting the Scriptures as sole infallibpe rule of faith and practice for the Church today, which means rejecting that Divine Authority of Christ the Head of the Church, for a human authority like the Papacy as another 'Head of the Church' [nowhere does scripture, which equips the man of God for every good work identify the bishop of Rome as the Head of the Church, or that he is guided by the Holy Spirit] didnt bring complete uniformity as Roman catholics disagree on what official teachings mean and there are multiple positions that contradict each that are allowed - such that you could be Molist or Thomist on predestination, or you could be young earth or old earth, literal Adam or theistic evolution, Matthew wrote Matthew or he did not, the Gospels are historically accurate or not, Paul wrote 14, 14 or epistles, there should be a mission to Jews or not, etc etc etc. So there is latitude allowed on beliefs that the ancient view is clearly one. Not mention the different doctrines on capital punishment and war, the practices of the Catholic Left, thr charismatics Catholics, the Latin traditionalists, differences on homosexuality and abortion, etc.
And thats just practicing roman catholics - then you have syncretism found in some Latin American countries and the nominalism in Europe. So apparently a human authority like the Papacy, different roman catholics disagree on what the official teaching on capital punishment or war, and that doesnt even include whether dissent is allowed on things like 'artificial birth control' vs 'natural birth control' [a concept that the church fathers would have found quite strange].
Besides, if you affirm that The Lord Jesus rose physically from the dead, how did He prove it? Didnt He appear alive to His Apostles? He said 'Spirit does not have flesh and bones as you can SEE that I have.' And he ate fish. So they used their eyes and senses to see that He truly alive. They touched His wounds and saw Him eat fish and talk to them. Thomas put his hand in the wound of christ. But if transubstantion is true, then our senses cant be trusted. Because we see bread, taste bread, feel bread, handle bread, but the papacy says there is 'no bread' when the Scripture in 1 ccorinthians says that we 'break bread' and 'eat bread.' And Christ told his apostles, after he took BREAD and said take, Eat! But if there was not bread, then they could not obey his command, and their senses could not be trusted. And the apostles seeing, and touching the physical body of Christ is undermined if transubstantion is true. Because we see Jesus sleep and be hungry, we know he has a true Human Nature, although with His Divinity. But if our senses cant be trusted, then the evidence that Christ Rose from the Dead is undermined, as well as christ's true humanity. And if christ is truly human, then he has a real human body, even know,and a human body is only in one space, not two places at once. Christ ascended into heaven, he left with his human nature, but is present everywhere by his divije nature. So transubstantion cannot be true, as it contradicts Scripture, and our senses. Scripture doesnt say 'symbol of bread' or 'accidents of bread.' Scripture was written in Greek, and aristotle lived long before, and God could certainly have had the apostles write that down if it was absolutely necessary for all Christians to believe that there is no wine and no bread in the lords Supper.
Also why do roman catholics becoming Protestant is 6 to 1? For every one protestant who submits to the 'Pope' as 'Head of the Church,' 6 Roman Catholics reject the Pope and acknowledge Jesus Christ as the only Head of the Church and His Scripture being able to make one wise for salvation which is through faith in Christ and able to equip us for every good work? And isnt one of the main reasons for submitting to the Pope marrying a Roman Catholic? While Roman Catholics often become Protestants because they see how the Pope and his 'priests' distrust and undermine Scripture, as rhe bishops of the UK and America did when they attacked Scripture as having errors?
Protestant learning about Eastern Orthodoxy. I’ve been going to liturgy since August. The aesthetics definitely drew me in, but learning about the daily lives of the orthodox, the culture, and most importantly, their theology has kept me interested. The eastern church has a very different view of who God is, it’s been very fruitful learning about how they view salvation and has definitely challenged all of my beliefs.
What is the Eastern Orthodoxy view of Mary?
Thanks for sharing!
@@Justas399 She's a Saint, She is the God Bearer Theotokos, They hold her very highly. They don't hold to the Catholic view of the immaculate conception.
@@andrewselbyphotography Also, they view her as a Mother of God and don't do the Rosary. From my experience of studying Eastern Orthodoxy, I find many of their doctrines very profound. However, their "humble claim" that they are the one and the true original church that was mentioned in the book of Acts and that they successfully carried the Apostolic traditions are inherently arrogant. Their views of baptism done by other Christian sects and denominations are very intolerant and close-minded. Their doctrine of justification and their view of salvation through works are also troubling.
@@junkim5853 > and their view of salvation through works
The concept of "theosis" is not what protestants mean with the word "salvation". There is a good thing about Orthodoxy. There is not much fear of that "are you saved" that most pastors use to pray on the doubts and worries of the simple believers. Your goal is not a narrow "safety", you do not aspire to be saved, you aspire to become as much like Jesus as possible *and that takes action* *instead of empty words* ... if you understand that as "salvation through works" you haven't even scratched the surface of the whole thing.
Was a Protestant for some years. Defending it and it’s doctrines from the reformation. Was a Calvinist. Went out and street preached. Converted to orthodoxy and for the first time I actually worshipped God. I didn’t have an quarrels with the Protestant church. The things that convince me was:
1) everyone and every church has a tradition. Question is, where does it come from? How was it establish?
2) The Eucharist of Christ
3) church history. History shows us that there was always 1 true church for the first 1000 years.
4) Rock concerts (protestant liturgy) vs Ancient Christianity Liturgy
5) Nobody held protestant doctrines for thousands of years until recently. Protestants ,most of course don’t hold to the theology and doctrines and creeds of the reformational fathers, instead it’s constantly always being reformed.
6) Orthodoxy has always defended the same faith for thousands of years, never letting it change or be reformed
7) Orthodoxy are the ones who actually put the Bible together. The books that were put in the Bible was put together in about 6th-7th century council by bishops and priests. Therefore God gave an authority outside the Bible, which is the church. Which the Holy Spirit guides as Christ said. Martin Luther took out 10 books of the Bible and wanted to take out more which was some books of the New Testament. Luckily he was stopped but protestants don’t have the full canon of scripture. So they have no right to say anything about what scripture says is they don’t even have all the books.
8) Bible says 1 baptism and 1 Faith. Not 13000 denominations with different baptisms and different expressions of faith doctrinal and theological wise
9) If orthodoxy is not true, then Christ lied when he said the Gates of Hell prevailed against the church. It never prevailed and we can see that in history and the writings of the Fathers and lives of the saints.
I have many more reasons but I think these are good taste of reasons on why we should instead be cautioned about Protestantism. It holds to ecumenism which helps with the globalization for the antichrist. Be aware and do not be deceived! ☦️📿
Your last point is one that dissuades me from Roman Catholicism. Having multiple Patriarchates prevents the entire Orthodox Church from being deceived by the Antichrist. The Pope of Rome will probably be part of the Antichrist's global order. There are also the Churchs mentioned in the book of Revelation - multiple churches, each in different cities, similar to various Patriarchates today.
It is not something that can be accomplished just by “rigorous study” - this is not a choice that should be made intellectually. It should be done prayerfully. The biggest difference between the Orthodox Church and other forms is that we know that we can’t know the Lord through our intellect or logic or reason. We know Him mystically, through our hearts.
That's a fair critique, but I would be careful not to draw too hard of a line between study and prayer. I would say that it's certainly possible to prayerfully study
“There is within the human mind, and indeed by natural instinct, an awareness of divinity. This we take to be beyond controversy. To prevent anyone from taking refuge in the pretense of ignorance, God himself has implanted in all men a certain understanding of his divine majesty. . . . Men of sound judgment will always be sure that a sense of divinity which can never be effaced is engraved upon men’s minds. Indeed, the perversity of the impious, who though they struggle furiously are unable to extricate themselves from the fear of God, is abundant testimony that this conviction, namely, that there is some God, is naturally inborn in all, and is fixed deep within, as it were in the very marrow.” - St. John Calvin, on the knowing of God by feeling him "Sensus Divinitatis"
@@GospelSimplicity Austin, I so appreciate your boldness in asking the questions you do on your channel. Few are so noble, and few open themselves to the glut of spiritual delusion that comes with honest inquiry into these matters!
These are prayers before study: Lord Jesus Christ, open the eyes of my heart, that I may hear thy word and understand it and so fulfill thy will.
O LORD my God, enlighten my mind with the light of the understanding of thy holy Scripture, and teach me to do thy will.
And after reading: May the words of the divine Scriptures bring to nothing all of Satan's activity, whether in mind or heart or any of the senses of my soul and body, and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ dwell in me, sanctifying me, the whole man, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Notice that these prayers are not concerned with the rational intellect, but the mind (nous) and the heart (kardia). Furthermore, it is not concerned with intellectual knowledge, but with obedience. The filling of the mind with facts is meaningless and useless unless one's nous is clear and full light. Matt 6:22
Grace!
He said to pray. I feel like this is becoming a prideful exercise: " let's bust him for something." I don't sense any nastiness on his part at all. And to be fair, almost every convert I know who has gone from protestantism to Catholicism or Orthodoxy has made a huge to-do about aesthetics, and for good reason, as evangelicalism gets low grades there. But it should be about things like justification, not litirgy.
I agree with most of the ideas in this video, BUT liturgy is not only about aesthetics, it is incarnation and synthesis of Truth, celebrated consistently and beyond intellectual constructions.
Very True. The liturgy is the central gift that Christ left to his church.
That's a fair point. I think differing views on "Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi" are at play here.
You are absolutely right.
🎯
I agree completely with Father. As per the Catechism Jesus Christ our Savior in the Eucharist is "the source and summit" of the Catholic faith. That is the spearhead. Saying that it is just smells and bells is a misrepresentation of Catholic teaching.
Jesus is either in the Eucharist or He isn't. That's crucial. I would imagine it would be up to the individual to prayerfully study that and bring this before God.
Thank you for being respectful and bringing up good other points!!
I am a Protestant who Catholic friends tried to convert. I read Hann's book, 'Rome Sweet Home' and I am doing my search carefully, but still I am not convinced.
I automatically followed the advice given here by this fellow. It easy to fall to the esthetics side of older traditions and dismiss the theological nature of the discussions.
There was not for no reason former Catholics, such as Luther or Calvin, decided to leave Catholicism in search of Truth.
I think Catholic and Orthodox traditions are very appealing, but the Protestantism is focused in the Truth and in the historical-argumentative analysis of the texts. Nothing can beat that.
Reading Catholic Saint Pio X Cathecism, often refered as the most based Catholic Cathecism by TradCatholics, was one of the reasons i ended up becoming Presbyterian.
Protestants are passionate about the truth. Catholics and orthodox are about traditions
Growing up, I was a child of the marriage of an Irish Catholic and a Scottish/Irish Protestant. What a War! My father loved and respected my mother's father enough that he allowed me, their oldest child, to be catechized in the Catholic church, and make first Communion. At the same time, Dad was reading to us from the Bible, giving us his take on the readings, and taking us to Protestant churches. My first experience of church was Lutheran, but then it was Congregational, in between Catholic masses. So conflicted! Shortly after my First Communion, my grandfather died, and his daughter, my mother, was not a believer in anything that I could discern. So for many years, I searched, not for Christ, but for the true way to worship Him. In my younger years, I searched in Eastern and New age beliefs, but as time went on, I gravitated to Catholicism because so many Protestant denominations seemed maliable, changeable, simplistic, shallow. They seemed to be too tempted by the doctrines of the culture rather than the tradition of Christian belief and Biblical beliefs, but the Protestant churches that were " Sola scriptura" alone seemed much too small minded. If I never heard " what is the chapter and verse " again, that was fine with me. I was Confirmed in the Catholic Church. I am discomfitted by some things such as the extreme reverence of Mary, but I believe in the Eucarist. That's what keeps me worshipping there. But what I think at this point is this: if you worship the Trinity with belief in the salvation of the sacrifice of Jesus, and you love Him and seek to look at your fellow humans as He sees us all, and worship the Trinity in spirit and truth, you're all good, no matter the Tabernacle where you worship.
I was born and raised in a Catholic family in Brazil, a country predominantly Catholic. It's really interesting to see the protestants' views that lived in a country predominantly Protestant. The same problems you guys have there as majority (unhealty experiences or not really engaged people) we have here as a Catholics. Anyway, I really love your channel. Honestly, I prefer watching your videos than from my fellow Brazilian protestant RUclipsrs because you are always kind and respectful. As I said before, I was raised in a Catholic family but I was never really one. Your videos wanna make me study more, more and more and I'm doing my best to seek the Truth. Thank you for what you've been doing for ALL Christians.
Come home, many catholics revert because of the Holy Eucharist and and other Sacraments, the only church that God Himself founded. Watch in youtube EWTN/JOURNEY HOME program thousands converted to catholicism listen their testimony why they became catholics, the founder of that program was protestant pastor. Saint Paul warned us of division, denomination churches teaches only half truth. The first printing press was only invented in 15th century, a German catholic inventor named Johannes Guttenberg invented the the first printing press, the book that was first printed and published is the Bible from Latin Vulgate. Prior to that, all Bibles were tediously written by hand through catholic monks. The Bible compiled in 4th century, if the Bible is the only source of truth, what is the source of truth 400 years before the Bible existed?
As a cradle Catholic Christian (from a lukewarm Catholic family) I'm absolutely disgusted by the way many Protestants - particularly Pentecostals - malign the Catholic Church, but I must admit that their hatred has motivated me to study the Catholic faith more in light of Scripture & practise what our faith actually teaches, even if I'm the only one that cares about it so deeply among my relatives & peers. It baffles me that so many people in the Western world (esp. fellow Catholics) feel content with identifying as a member of a religious group, without caring to practise what their faith preaches (& learning more about it, which I'm still doing myself). Sure, we all experience temptations & challenges that affect our communion with God & make us doubt what we believe in some way, but I feel sad for those who get baptised, aren't raised in a prayerful environment & hardly enter a parish unless it's for a sacrament or holy day (e.g. First Communion, weddings, Christmas). It creates a bad cycle of "cultural Christianity" & eventually some generations fall away from God & the Church altogether.
Maybe you'll find this Bible study on the Book of Revelation insightful (I got tired of the "Whore of Babylon" claims against the Church, esp. from Protestants trying to "save" souls during the pandemic):
ruclips.net/p/PLnftOVqh-jlZIKgatk6uEi4l7hdXTmTHM
Brazil will soon become majority Protestant
@@JackDSquatnot if they are deep in scripture and deep in church history. Protestants steal away Catholics that don’t know their faith by misrepresenting and many times lying about what the church teaches. I was one of them.
Protestants who do know their faith and love scripture are coming into the Catholic Church in droves. I am one of them. Praise God, I am no longer a schismatic! The longer I am back in the one true church the more scripture I see that confirms the faith.
Protestants hold to the unbiblical doctrine of Justification by faith alone and there is only one scripture that mentions faith and alone together and that scripture refutes Luther’s made up doctrine. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. Many are deceived by following Luther’s schismatic unbiblical teachings.
Study the teachings of the ancient church fathers and read ALL of Luther’s writings (he made claims similar to Joseph Smith) and you too will come home to the one true church.
Deo gratias!
Compare Catholic Official Cathecism with Westminster Cathecism. Reading Catholic Cathecism was one of the reasons i ended up becoming Presbyterian
At 2:50 he appears to call the path to God an “intellectual pursuit”. That’s the problem with his/Protestant thinking right there. 🇬🇷☦️
Finding God should be done with the heart but guided by the mind. God made us rational, thinking beings for a reason, and we are at our best I believe when we use all our God given abilities. God bless, brother. 🙏🕯️
@@lancasterII in such matters it’s not safe to trust our intellect. The Holy Fathers (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th century), people much closer to God than me at least, have done all the “analysis”needed. We just need to follow their lead. Blessings to you as well.
Precisely. We are told not to lean on our own understanding. The intellect is not where we encounter God.
Exactly, look at saints like Jean D'Arc who couldn't even read. It's clear this guy doesn't know the Faith. Also...that was the only Church during her time and last I checked Jesus established His Church on Peter in 33AD, He said that the gates of hell will never prevail against it, not that it would fail and then some guys over 1500 years later would make the real church. To be protestant is to deny history and obvious gaps of logic and reason and then try to say you've came to that position by reason despite Faith coinciding with and being above reason. Tragic.
lancasterII Of course, the intellect should not be neglected. We Orthodox must be aware of the danger of under emphasizing the intellectual as a response to others overemphasizing it. However, there is nothing officially “anti-intellectual” about the church. The church is full of intellectual Saints! However many of these ended up forsaking their earthy intellectual positions for a life of asceticism and simplicity. This is a complicated matter. Lord Jesus, Son of God, Have Mercy on us.
As a Catholic, I couldn't agree more. Always follow the Truth! Because He is the Way-the only way- that leads to Life!
Amen
The truth would lead you away from Rome and to Christ and Christ alone.
I was a “non denominational “ Christian for about 2 years in a country where less than 1 % of the population was Christian. I didn’t even know what a denomination was, then I became Catholic when I was 17, 42 years ago. For me it was the best decision . I cannot imagine a Christian life without the Eucharist. ( well, I sort of can since the church was locked out for 12 weeks due to COVID.)
Me too...Never thought that I would be able to survive without the Eucharist...But rosary and the scripture helped get through smoothly
From a practicing Catholic.... Austin, I have the utmost respect for how you approach your research and ministry of sharing. I would also state that this question and reply specifically are a spectacular piece of advice, given with great compassion. God bless you and yours my friend.
Thank you so much!
1. The Eucharist. 2. The true Church of Jesus Christ
1 Other churches already have the Eucharist 2 it’s not even the first church
Apostolic succession.
@@tristankramer4636 1. Im speaking of true presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, not a symbol. 2. Catholic Church was established on Peter, no other church can say that. Notice I said TRUE church.
@@rubenmartinez4346 The orthodox can say that
@@rubenmartinez4346 And the other apostles started other Churches, St Peter was the Leader of the apostles, Jesus did not say for him to have successors. Also Peter did not start the RCC, And all the Roman Catholic man made beliefs came around hundreds of years later. And other Christians have the true presence, we don’t need transubstantiation to explain how it happens.
I converted to ORTHODOXY not for any romanticised reason. After 30 years of living as a Baptist, and being a HUGE history buff I eventually came to the realization that Protestantism had no Historical Christian foundation or Biblical Foundation.
Thanks for sharing
@@thejoshuaproject3809 Oh so the Lutherans have it right, but the Baptists are totally wrong for sure .
@@thejoshuaproject3809 Similarities do not make you part of the Church. All of that is Irrelevant if you are not in the Church which is the Orthodox Church.
@@thejoshuaproject3809 For a Person who acts like you know Church History then you would know that the Oriental church is NOT Orthodox especially when it believes in LITERAL HERESIES, stuff that you Protestants would also condemn them for. You're not going to drive me into a corner with your Protestant trickery...I was a Protestant for 30 years, I know your tactics.
How can Orthodoxy be Christ's Universal Church when it's so ethnocentric and inconsequential? Maybe coming from a Baptist Church it is hard to appreciate how insignificant Orthodoxy is in the world, but I don't even know where an Orthodox Church is and it is very odd that after 2,000 years Christ would have buried His Church under a bushel basket. Pretty obvious that it's a root cut off from the branch that's in denial.
As someone who was protestant, then was part of the church of Christ and now Orthodox...I am grateful for my protestant background. I learned many things, and could see God's hand guiding and directing my steps. Honestly Protestantism was like my gateway into heaven, but it wasn't the fullness of the Kingdom. The depth of spiritually, at least for me, wasn't realized until I stepped into Orthodoxy. It's beyond the world. It's mystical, it's deep, it's so much more than I had been led to believe about being a Christian. It's like Protestantism was grade school...then I graduated. Not in a bad way. I had a lot of misconception with tradition and with the idea of this sort of authority that came from ancient churches and their practices. God really had to work in me to take those walls down before I could even accept a church with such rich tradition. Since I had such a poor out look and view of the catholic church, it was a lot to tear down those walls. But when they came down there was such depth and beauty on the other side. I'm grateful for my protestant background.
same!
That's great, but do the Orthodox teach people they are justified by the gift of God's grace, which they receive through faith in Jesus Christ, and not by works? That is the litmus test of any true church, and the test the RCC fails.
@@rexlion4510 Actually both the Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic Church believe that being saved is a free gift and that we can not make it to heaven on our works...but that doesn't exclude us from walking the narrow path. We have to strive and work to use the free gift God gave us, even though nothing we do can save us in and of itself. There are many things as Christians that we are supposed to do and are called to do...doesn't mean they get us into heaven, it means that the Holy Spirit is at work in us and growing the fruits of the spirit which makes us more like Christ. But salvation is a free gift both in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism.
@@righteousrebellion90 I am very glad to hear that salvation (and thus the righteousness which God bestows by imputation, Rom. 4) is regarded as a free gift in Orthodoxy! That is not the case in Romanism, however. Trent VI, Canon 32, says, "If anyone says...that the one *justified by the good works that he performs* by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, *does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself* and also an increase of glory, *let him be anathema."* Trent has never been reversed and is still binding doctrine in the RCC. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), section 2010, verifies this concept by saying that Catholics can *"merit for ourselves* and for others *the graces needed* for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and *for the attainment of eternal life...."* This is what makes the RCC so pernicious: it teaches a different gospel, a gospel of justification by a combination of works *and* grace through faith. The RCC has made the same error as the "foolish Galatians" (see Gal. 2 & 3).
I was raised Roman Catholic. The RCC teaches that righteousness must become inherent within (an integral part of) the believer before he will be admitted into heaven. This is why the priests require penitents to perform works of *penance to personally atone* for their confessed sins. This is also why the RCC says that even the absolved venial sins of a Catholic generally leave a stain of unrighteousness which, after death, must be atoned for *by the Catholic* personally via *suffering in the fires of Purgatory.* They do not regard the propitiation of Christ as fully sufficient for the forgiveness of one's sins!
@@rexlion4510 I know a lot of Catholics. And they definitely believe that salvation is a free gift. They believe they are saved by God's grace alone. Even a quick Google search will confirm this.
I spoke to an orthodox priest recently who told me that the reason he became orthodox was because he realised that as a Lutheran he was reacting to the Catholics. He believed what he did because the Catholics believed the opposite. And that lead him down the path of reasoning which led to orthodoxy.
Even the name itself , Protestantism . It means protesting the Catholics . Faith shouldn’t be believing because someone else believes something else. It should be believe because it’s true
That's really interesting
Orthodoxy is the same. They call themselves that cause they are saying they have the right doctrine compared to others.That's (latin catholics)
And Protestantism is a word Latin catholics say and has become a practical word. I don't mind people calling me that, but I know that's a name given by catholics.
We don't believe as we do to contradict someone else but to preserve the doctrine of the apostles. If you contradict doctrine of the apostles then we don't have to worry about that anymore. We just worry for you now.
Interesting but poor argument. One could easily say the same for Orthodoxy
@@amenbekele6128 no, Orthodox are the Ancient Church, the same doctrine as the early church. It was the catholics who changed things
@@saramolina8911 the original church was orthodox and catholic. And the orthodox church still calls itself catholic. Keep in mind catholic is a greek word καθολικός which means something like unanimous or global.
The orthodox church is the only church that has customs from the ancient church
He’s spot on about the romanticism. As to the “smells and bells” stuff, well, honestly, I’d go back to my piano, hymns, sermons any day of the week because it’s comfortable and I’m used to it. It’s not about taste. If it was about taste there would be no need to call it a conversion. I’d simply be changing churches like a Protestant denomination
Thanks for sharing this. Are you now Catholic or Orthodox?
@@GospelSimplicity Orthodox - finally baptized Oct. 10th this year!
@@delbertclement2115 welcome home!!
I totally agree. These two quotes from Father Stephen Freeman echo my feelings and experience with becoming Orthodox.
"The choice to become Orthodox was more like obedience and not like doing what I wanted to do."
"I'm entering the Orthodox Church as a penitent. I'm not entering as a triumphant convert, 'at last I've found the truth.' I would have to say, 'at last I'm repenting.'"
I would echo too what you say; it would be so much easier to stay comfortable and go to what I knew growing up. Even though what I knew growing up doesn't even really exist anymore.
Many years! Welcome home! Did you take on a patron saint name by chance (just curious)?
@@shilatozier4254 I did! One of the Biblical figures I had always loved growing up in my Protestant days was Job. I just have always wanted to be able to suffer like Job - in the sense that to bare my cross and still love and obey God. I'm so far short of this but I chose Righteous Job as my patron saint.
Lol I had a very bad experience in the Greek Orthodox Church. So I went to a reformed Christian church and then was actually saved a short time later. The one thing I can say for sure is that in the reformed Christian church I feel that I am with genuine believers who have been saved. Our conversations center mostly around Christ. When I was at the Greek Orthodox Church no one ever talked about being sanctified. No conversations centered around God. The fellowship after a Greek Orthodox service was telling dirty jokes and other worldly things. I was part of that as well and was unsaved too. Aesthetics were not a big deal to me because I grew up seeing hypocrites who kissed icons and sat in church with all the smells and bells. I saw no one being changed by the word of God. The Orthodox Church is all about liturgy and the communion which supposedly takes your sins away. I did not see God working through any of that. No one ever looked as though they were being sanctified or theosis. I’m sorry if this makes someone uncomfortable or angry to hear. I’m actually angry for the false beliefs of the Orthodox Church. You are not saved by coming to church and taking sacraments. You are saved by the word of God! God draws you to Him by no effort of your own and He grants you repentance and you begin to believe and trust in His holy word. I started a new path with God to follow Him. I know that I will be in heaven not because of my righteousness but through His Son. I can’t lose my salvation because my salvation is not based on me only God. His promises are irrevocable- Romans 11:25
Exactly my experience with Greek Orthodoxy! Its all a big show. You can NOT wipe away your sin with liturgies, hymns, etc. The amount of blasphemous nonsense priests would invent every week, made me sick. I couldn't stand the idolatry and obsession with icons and dead people. They NEVER preached the Gospel, nor did they speak of our Lord and Savior. Praise the Lord for helping me escape all that and be saved! God bless you also, friend.
I want to say that I had the same experience in Russian Orthodox Church! I was baptized as an infant and actually never even knew who Jesus was and what he did for us people!! Until I was saved by the grace of God at 23 and have had real faith in Him ever since. Now attend a Protestant church full of people where I see the spirit working in. Is it wrong to say that the spirit feels in alive in Orthodoxy?? It’s a generalization but it’s my experience
exactly my experience growing up in the the RCC
@@liljade53 ditto.
Now someone who will challenge your vague narrative of you being "at the Greek Orthodox Church." Did you pursue catechism? Did you pursue the serious believers? Did you isolate those "dirty joke" tellers? Were your parents nominal Orthodox believers kissing icons? In John 6, Christ contradicts what you say about sacraments. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.
Came for the smells and bells. Stayed for the Coherent and Correspondent Truth in Orthodoxy (the West was once Orthodox).
West is still Orthodox. Christians were calling themselvs CAtholics, not orthodox, read Ignatius of Antioch. They were catholic who had true orthodox (not orthodox in denominational sense) faith. And Catholicism is still true orthodoxy. East and west were CATHOLIC (east was catholic with eastern Rite) . Even today when orthodox pray deposit of faith they proclaim "We believe in one TRUE CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHRUCH".
Roman See as Historic Standard-Bearer of Orthodoxy
www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2020/02/roman-see-as-historic-standard-bearer-of-orthodoxy.html
@@kyriosbooks8400 Catholic =/= Roman Catholic.
@@777Justin Educate yourself on meaning of the word Catholic. We have Bztantine Catholic also. We are catholics with different rites (Roman, Byzantine etc). Church was ALWAYS catholic. Orthodox Church starts in 11 century, Catholic - 33 AD :)
Greetings from orthodox Catholic :)
@@kyriosbooks8400 “Catholics with different rites” = Uniates say the creed without filioque. Roman rites say the creed with filioque. Maronite Catholics are Monophysite which is closer theologically to Oriental Orthodox. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some Arian congregations who kiss the Popes hand and calls itself “Catholic.” It goes beyond mere rites.
The only thing “Catholic” about the Papacy is the incoherency in universally tolerating heresies as long as they pledge to the Pope.
Orthodox Catholic is what we call ourselves.
No point in being Catholic if you’re in communion with heretics. Orthodox theology is infinitely more important than being “Catholic.” At one time Arianism was the majority of the Church. I’m sure Arians also believed themselves to be Catholic, but they weren’t orthodox in theology.
The Roman See *was* a historic standard bearer of orthodoxy. Not after several of the papal decrees which weren’t present at the time of St. Clement has Rome been Orthodox. We see a church with many innovations.
@@777Justin You are hater with washed off arguments. Catholic church with Pope saved you, and you had manny arians monophysite etc heretical leaders and bishops. Catholic Church with pope saved you from heresies you believed in.
You are always in schism and dividing, even today.
Holy Spirit didnt stop working after 11th century and Catholic Church follows that, and you have stoped.
LEt him come into your heart and free you from that cold religious stuckness, you lack love. Stop hatin so much. Catholics are not your enemies.
Peace and blessings from orthodox Catholic.
Relying purely on intellectual theology is just as bad as relying purely on aesthetics. Also, Orthodoxy has not only the best aesthetics, but also the best theology.
Excellent advice. We do tend to romanticize Catholicism when we become disillusioned in evangelical churches.
If you are doing anything for any other reason than that you love Christ and want to become more like Him and follow Him then you shouldn't be doing it. Seek first the Kingdom of God... ❤️❤️
Amen
My wife converted to Catholicism from Southern Baptist...more than 1 1/2 years before we met. She said it was hard to sit in her former church knowing that she was leaving it, but she was so hungry for the Eucharist. You can't be a "cafeteria catholic". You don't pick and choose what you want to believe. It's a "seamless cloth". You will never be happy if you don't accept it all.
One of the things that puts off potential converts is contraception. Like many things, it's not what you know, but what you *think* you know about the subject. Anyone who has a problem with this should actually read St. Paul VI's encyclical "Humane Vitae". Another excellent reference is St. John Paul II 's "Theology of the Body". Another thing to consider is that when we pray the Our Father, we say "thy will be done". When you use contraception, you are saying to God *my* will, not thy will be done.
Amen Amen Amen! This needs to be heard right now. The reason there is such a problem with abortion nowadays is because of the selfish mindset that has occurred from even Christians accepting contraception which goes against our nature and the gift of God. God bless you for stating here what is so important in today's time. And so much yes on St Pope Paul VI's Humanae Vitae!
For goodness sake, contraception has nothing to do with ‘thy will be done’. God will give you children regardless if you are using contraception if it is His will. The Catholic Church invented that doctrine to maximise its numbers. Very irresponsible to advocate that people breed themselves into poverty or that women risk their health to continue birthing children.
And btw before anyone suggests NFP to avoid, well that IS contraception, everyone knows it
I'd say too that I don't know a single Orthodox priest who would welcome someone into the Church because they love the "smells and bells" or because they had a bad experience in their previous church. Of course becoming Orthodox isn't like joining another Protestant church... it truly is a conversion. You don't just "place membership." ☺️
Yes. I was the opposite. I came for the theology and stayed for the smells and bells. The Beauty of the Christ is just part of my everyday life as an Orthodox Christian and it takes so many aesthetic physical forms. EO does not divorce Beauty from the Good and the Beautiful.
Some really good points, Gavin. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church and now I'm a Christian of the Protestant variety, because of what I evaluated doctrinally. I know that if I died tonight I would find myself in the Presence of my Lord Jesus, and I have no fear of death (I do hope it's painless, though, because I'm a wimp about pain). I now attend an ACNA Anglican church even though my understanding of doctrine probably aligns a bit better the Baptists (no denom are perfect, as you say). But here's the thing: as a believer in Christ as the Savior who fully atoned for my sins and redeemed me from them, and who promised every believer eternal life, I have freedom to belong within (or even attend) just about any Protestant church, for they all teach the basic truth of salvation by God's gift of grace through faith in Jesus. The Anglican parish has the traditional music and the reverent liturgy I appreciate. But if I felt like dropping in at some church that has contemporary worship and a coffee bar in the back, I'd still be among like-minded fellow believers in Jesus Christ. In Roman Catholicism, one cannot do that. And honestly, I would feel very out-of-place in a RC Mass because their salvation doctrine is so divergent from what I and Protestants believe based on the Bible. My RC relatives and friends fear death and they feel little or no assurance about where they'll go when they die; that is so distressing!
Good advice for sure. And I'm still (despite how little I initially wanted it) being confirmed at a small mass tomorrow night.
Wow! I'm sure that's been quite a journey. God bless you in all of this
@@GospelSimplicity Thank you! It's been a crazy journey in some ways.
GOD BLESS HIS ONE AND ONLY CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Amen
So needed to hear this. Someone who understands the " angst " it's so challenging to feel in limbo with no church home. . Although of course not really alone as God is with us through the journey.
Orthodoxy is experiential. Any convert who joins the Church primarily because of forensic intellectual reasoning will surely fall away.
Interesting point
I say this as a convert from Protestantism to Orthodoxy-Dr. Ortlund has said some good words here. Aesthetics will only carry you so far, and being dishonest about the problems in the Orthodox world would be a huge mistake.
I disagree with his ultimate conclusions, but I appreciate his cautions.
I appreciate your thoughtful engagement with this
I wanted to add a further thought to this conversation.
The beauty of Orthodox worship, when properly understood, is not merely aesthetic. Christian worship should be beautiful because God clearly cares about beauty. So when I say, “aesthetics will only carry you so far,” I am not saying “beauty in worship is unimportant.” I’m just saying that if you try to become Orthodox simply because you think it’s pretty you’re missing the point.
Nobody asked, but it’s been on my mind!
Joshua Duncan Good clarification! There is no need for distinction between Truth Goodness and Beauty. It is all one person the Logos. We live in a UNIverse. There is one God, the beautiful One. Christ is Risen!
@@upliftingcommunity2465 Indeed He Is Risen!
@@joshuaduncan235 great clarification. Western Christianity too often divorces the Beautiful from the Good and the True. Or just discards it entirely. It turns out everything Good and True is contained within true Beauty (aka Christ). We need more of it not less.
My mother used to bring me to a Lutheran church since it was close to our house but I never really felt fulfilled or engaged. My aunt brought me to mass with her one weekend and it was like heaven opening up. I loved that the Eucharist is the center of every mass not a long drawn out sermon. Also learning to pray the rosary and simply connecting with our lady really sealed the deal. I think idea of the cloud of witnesses is probably one of most beautiful aspects of Catholicism.
Thanks for sharing!
I’ve been on an absolutely insane, anxiety inducing, life ruining journey as of late in regards to my faith. Each day feeling like my soul is being pulled in 3 directions at once.
No matter how much research I do, how much I read, rebuttals I watch, how much I pray, I just can’t get any clarity… I don’t know what God is telling me.
I am right there/here with you. I have reached the point of wanting to take a step back from it all and simply read the Bible, doing my best to obey that while visiting various churches. The burden of selecting the right denomination is crushing me. I made a gigantic change from one to another (they are polar opposites) but am more troubled by the one I went to than the one I came from. It’s making me sick.
Smells and bells have a much greater meaning than the simple context most give to them. There is a rich and deep experience, a third degree of worship in the anesthetics, tradition and history.
I kind of desagree, you don't choose one religion based on what you think or feel is truth, you choose because said religion IS the ultimate Truth. Truth is always the decider factor when discussing religion
But how do you know that a religion is the ultimate truth without thinking or feeling that it's true?
@@GospelSimplicity good question, I'd say that only studying history, philosophy and theology you can discover what religion presents the ultimate truth. Truth is not a thing you think it ist or feel, but discover, it's something undeniable like basic math. And you'll know when you discover said truth. I know it's an abstract idea, but believe me, through the studies of history, philosophy and theology you'll discover bit by bit of the whole truth
@@2555Edu I disagree with you, we are still biased human beings we can't completely get rid of our bias and be 100% objective, even what you propose is subjective in itself.
Good advice from Dr. Ortlund. I landed at Eastern Orthodox Christianity from my study and experiences. It was not an easy or smooth process. In fact, seeing some of the not so aesthetically pleasing parts of the Church brought me down to earth and made it even more real for me. "The good, the bad, and the ugly" resonated with me the truth of what I was moving towards. I was received in to the Orthodox Church during Pascha of 2019. I am still adjusting but it has been a great journey towards a deeper relationship with Christ.
Welcome home!! 🙏☦️
Nice
He is completely right. And what made me go back to Catholicism (from 20 years in Protestantism) was nothing related to the Liturgy itself or something more practical like that. It was, among other things, when I finally understood what is Authority, how important it is and where does it come from. Also studying history in its entirety also helped me a lot to debunk the theory that Catholicism and Orthodoxy began correctly but then were corrupted overtime, and that Christianity was restored when Protestantism appeared. Looking at history I saw that the faith and practices of Christians were always the same, from the 1st century up, with no corruptions or changes, and that they can be found only in the Catholic faith. But that's me speaking, I don't want to offend anyone.
Thanks for sharing some of your story!
@YAJUN YUAN Did you?
@YAJUN YUAN Interesting, but why this narrow selection of material? We have 2000 years of Tradition.
@YAJUN YUAN but that's what I meant
@YAJUN YUAN And would there be an example of that?
I wanted to become Orthodox, but for the wrong reasons. I jumped into it without knowing what it’s about nor fully understanding it. I got spiritually hurt because of it. Don’t jump if you’re not 100% sure.
What a great response to a very complicated question. Both you and he are wise beyond your years. Anyone struggling with this problem would be wise to heed his advice. Be careful because the grass is always greener on the other side.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The theology is the part that matters most
Agreed
The truth matters most
Love matters most
Just wanted to share I became baptised Orthodox 30.08.2022. Glory to God! I have come home. I discerned about it for years. I do believe the fullness of the Church is there, although saying this has made people around me angry before (and when somebody said this to me years ago I was myself scandalized and offended).I find in the Orthodox church sound theology, right worship, and joy. Also a calling to asceticism and a challenge that Made me hold off a long time because I did not think it could be for me.
I enjoy your show and your openness to God and His true word vs. mans. God bless and Merry Christmas my friend!!! P.S. there’s nothing better than Christmas Mass at a cathedral 😁
Thanks! Merry Christmas to you too!
There's nothing wrong with being attracted to the Church by the "smells and bells" - the Liturgy is, after all, divine of the highest order, being the principle worship of Christ. Whilst depending on emotional inspirations isn't wise, being drawn to the ageless beauty of the Liturgy is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and it has held immense powers of evangelisation over the past 2000 years!
Fair point
I am a cradle Orthodox and I totally agree with Dr. Ortlund. Also, he is very respectful in his response. God bless!
Do not idealize the Church as a place where everyone is sinless and perfect, it is a false idol. Idealize Her as a hospital that is full of sick people looking to become better and indeed getting better with saints as Her witness and with Jesus Christ as the head Physician of souls and bodies.
Glad you enjoyed this!
As a former Protestant of 20 yrs, I have converted to Orthodox Christianity and have been for some time now. It was the reverse for me. I came for the Theology and stayed and continue practice BECAUSE of the beauty. It turns out True Beauty (Christ) is a better teacher than a simple mental ascent to belief checkboxes.
Like most Protestant converts nowadays, I “read my way into the church” and really was shocked at the missing history and theological pieces I was finding that had been so obviously missing from my faith my whole life. The aesthetics of the church were not important to me at that point but now In my day to day practice of living an Orthodox Christian life, the aesthetics and Beauty are a driving force and important part of how me and my family receive theology and more importantly live faithfully in Christ.
The “four bare walls and a sermon” approach I grew up with is something I can never go back to now. The true Beauty of Christ is incarnate in me, in my family, in my home and in my Church and the fruit of that is all over the walls of my home and church.
My Catholic friends never evangelised me. They were never interested in sharing anything about Christ, His death, burial and resurrection-an atonement for my sins let alone the judgement to come in all our time of friendship. I met their priests many times over but, zilch not a word about Christ’s incarnation and the righteousness of God from them. Not once did they offer me a bible to read.
That tells me more than enough about what they believed and know.
Were you Christian when you knew them?
Orthodox convert here. Theology was the primary driver. The liturgy was just a plus. You cannot be a Protestant and be orthodox.
The Liturgy is not something that can be understood from the outside; at best it’s like looking through a window at something you haven’t actually experienced. It is a Mystery that can only be fully experienced by baptized / chrismated Orthodox Christians whose body and soul have been properly prepared by confession, catechism, and spending countless hours in the actual services rather than just trying to analyze them intellectually.
Amen.
Orthodox Christians make it sound so esoteric. I think that's what puts me off. It's like this pride, and this attitude of, "We're official Orthodox Christians; we've gone through the initiation, the rituals, and the rest of you are profane". As though the orthodox harbor something occult that other Christians don't. I just don't think that's true. I see Christians of all walks of life and labels, who have experienced Christ in prison cells, in their bedrooms, or anywhere, and they didn't have to visit a priest, learn eastern theology, or take the eucharist to do so.
@@zen-sufi yes. That's a common misconception that is very easily understood. From the outside it is certainly easy to see it that way. But it's not how it is at all.
These two quotes from Father Stephen Freeman echo my feelings and experience with becoming Orthodox.
"The choice to become Orthodox was more like obedience and not like doing what I wanted to do."
"I'm entering the Orthodox Church as a penitent. I'm not entering as a triumphant convert, 'at last I've found the truth.' I would have to say, 'at last I'm repenting.'"
ruclips.net/video/Ob-C59z8T8Y/видео.html
I was protestant all my life until 2010 is when I entered the Catholic church.
The first time I went to a Catholic Mass I instantly felt the Holiness and couldn't deny it! Something I never felt in a protestant church. After that Mass, I turned to my elderly father and said,
"I want to become Catholic"
He said to me,
"I want to return to the church"
(He was raised Catholic and fell away when he married my mother who was protestant)
So we walked up th the priest as we were exiting the church, and I said I want to become Catholic, and my father use to be Catholic and wants to rejoin, what must we do?
He said,
"praise God! He (my father) is still Catholic and just needs to go to confession, and you need to enter into RCIA classes"
So that's what we did, and I have never looked back!
Yes, there are some bad things that have happened in the Catholic church, but its not the church that is bad, it's people who are sinners who can do bad things.
If I was living at the time of Jesus, I wouldn't leave Jesus because of Judus sin...
Once you know the truth, it's the truth, and if you leave, you are denying that truth.
I am a Christian Catholic and am so blessed because of it!
The church is rich and deep!
Martin Luther was so wrong!
If he had been right there would only be one protestant church, the Lutheran church!
I believe as Jesus said,
The gates of hell will not prevail against the church" Amen
The Rosary and Ignatian meditation changed me. There was a moment when I said to myself, "Okay let's ramp this up and try it..." Wooosh.
Thanks for sharing!
What did Christ leave behind? Protestants say that Christ left a collection of memoirs about Himself; Catholics say that He left the Pope as his Deputy. The Orthodox claim that He simply stayed with us "all the days until the end of the world."
Beautifully put. 🙏☦️
That’s a bit of a caricature of the Catholic view, friend. If you want to have a reasonable disagreement on the papacy that’s fine, but I would encourage you to put forward the most accurate beliefs of both Protestants and Catholics instead of knocking down strawmen.
@@sethgarries3219 The truth does not require proof, it is visible to everyone.
If I have offended you, I ask your forgiveness.
This is a good response. As someone exploring Orthodoxy from an evangelical background, I appreciate the idea of not romanticizing another aspect of Christianity without considering its drawbacks.
I believe that there is one main thing missing in evangelicalism that is to be found basically nowhere in the Protestant world (save maybe some Anglican or some Lutheran churches, of which many have turned apostate, so that is very complicated): the elevation of the Lord's Supper.
Protestantism, especially starting with Zwingli according to my studies, makes Christian assembly primarily about the elevation of the "Word," which means basically the sermon/homily, to the detriment of the Eucharist/communion. This has gone further now in evangelical circles, in which the sermon and the music are basically like the sacraments, whether they admit this or not. Communion is not done often and is basically given 2-3 minutes of "air time" during the service.
The band and the eloquence of the speaker are the two manners in which the services are deemed "good." In this lies much of the problem, instead of maintaining, preserving or contending for an ancient faith, evangelicalism focuses on catering to the whims/likes/dislikes of the people.
Repentance, confession, and taking the Lord's supper, which are all biblical, have become side notes if done at all. In contrast, Hank Hanegraff, who converted to EO from evangelicalism, calls the EO church a "spiritual gymnasium."
For those who want to come closer to Christ, there are so many avenues in the EO church, through the feasts, the lives of the saints, and the prayers. However, if you ask an evangelical pastor how to come closer to Christ, 9 times out of 10 the answer will be, "Read the bible, pray, attend church and home groups." That's it? Of course, these are good practices, but it's like going to a gym and asking a personal trainer how to get fit and he/she answers with "eat right and exercise." Um, okay, I get that, but which exercises should I do? What should I eat?
The evangelical experience has basically become a mental exercise, with a concert and a lecture, as some have called it. I say this as an evangelical worship leader.
The charismatics do have some elements of experience, but many times diverge into wildly errant doctrines and practices. I say this as a former charismatic.
If we are told in the Scriptures, that the Eucharist is transformative and necessary, regardless of what we believe about the nature of it, why is it such an afterthought? Why is one man's opinion, albeit informed, of so much value vs. the power of the blood and body of Christ?
It seems that most, if not all of the early church worship, centered around communion, but we see none of that in modern evangelicalism. That is why I'm thinking of leaving, not because of bad experiences, although I believe they have led me to question a lot.
If there were a Eucharist- centered church that didn't subscribe to some of the more extra-biblical practices of the Orthodox church , I think I would join in a minute.
@ESL Commando English. The Catholic Church is also a Eucharistic centred Church.🙏
@@jeremiahong248 I agree. That is a good point. Thanks.
@@fricasee2000 i have experienced Jesus in the Eucharist on the day of my baptism. I am a convert to the Catholic faith. What I knew John 6:54 through my rational head, that experience has allowed me to understand John 6:54 through the heart. I am eternally grateful to Jesus for giving me this gift and to experience Him on the day of my baptism.
Interesting thoughts. You touched on it briefly, but I would say that confessional Lutheran churches fit your description pretty well as far as having a high view of the Eucharist without extra-biblical practices. Additionally, Calvin is widely misunderstood in this area in my opinion, but his doctrine of the Lord's Supper is far closer to Luther than Zwingli
@@loverlei79 I do know there is meaning there. It is one of the things that I appreciate about Orthodoxy. Everything seems to have significance. This is different from much of evangelicalism, which can seem haphazard or the whim of the current leadership.
I converted from roman catholicism to Biblical Christianity (i.e. Protestantism), primarily because couldn't find any biblical reference to plenty of catholic dogmas. Some catholic dogmas are not only nowhere to be found in scripture but are in plain and direct contraddiction to god's word.
God's great and infinite love for us is More than just " relationship"
As a convert to Orthodox Christianity, I appreciate the respectful answer here. This is why good Catechism is so important. Catechumen usually spend a year learning the theology and Tradition of the church- how the Orthodox Church views salvation, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the death and resurrection of Christ, the sacraments, the use of iconography, the veneration of saints and the Mother of God and the role they have in our lives, prayer, fasting, the church calendar, church history, etc. For me, yes, I was attached to the history and aesthetics of Orthodox (which are not unimportant), but as I studied deeply the beliefs and practices and Tradition of the Orthodox faith I was and am convinced that it is the most full and True expression of Christianity.
Without any visible sign of unity or Apostolic Authority within Protestant churches, how does one have moral certainty that the proposed belief or practice will get you to heaven and out of hell?
St John 3:16, brother.
That is why I would never be protestant. If they want to try their luck, that is their problem.
@@angelvalentinmojica6967 We believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, our salvation is assured.
@@lancasterII "Not everyone who says 'oh Lord, oh Lord' will be saved"
@@vincenzorutigliano5435 Correct, that goes for any Christian of any denomination.
I was a bishop and pastor for many years and lifelong hard core Christian and still struggled with all of that. Long story short I did end up later becoming EO and RC. But came back now from my hiatuses there.
As a Catholic who has come from a Protestant background, I would second all this advice.
Wow, he answered in a very respectful way, very nice to hear! Would definitely agree with those points!
Glad you enjoyed it!
He recommends that people not be too quick to fall for the "smells & bells" because he knows how compelling it is. I think that's true even for those who are in 'normal' Catholic parishes and then they visit a traditional parish, or one with a particularly good music program focusing on sacred music.
Western Christianity divorces the Beautiful from the Good and the True so it’s not surprising that he says this. Beauty does not have value in the Modern Western world.
Enjoying Holy Catholic Faith every Moment of my Life. Thank you
I so appreciate your kind words of encouragement, Dr. Ortland! I've commented on your own channel recently, but I just thought I'd agree with you here, that it is very scary to be on an intellectual journey where I don't know the ending. Not ending up in Christian orthodoxy (i.e. exclusivity in particular) is a real possibility for me, and I hope the words you said, that being true to my conscience no matter what, hold true as the best course of action. Not that I am really brave enough to speak my full mind with anyone close to me in my Christian circles.
The Eucharist is enough.
We should pray for all people trying to seek Christ's Church. We've made it overly complicated.
If you're a Protestant thinking about being Orthodox or Catholic go and pray with them. Find someone you can look up to in that tradition and have them pray for you.
You know Christ, see if you know Him more through the ancient Tradition of the Church rather than the 16th century ideas of the Reformers.
As was stated in the video judge a church by its best not its worst. You will find hypocrites and sinners in every congregation - but do you find any Saints? If you're in a church that doesn't produce saintly people - maybe find another church
That's good advice
This video came at a great time. I'm almost nearly convinced of the Catholic Church, and have considered converting and potentially trying to bring my wife with me if I do so. However, I mainly struggle with a few things such as, "what will my family or wife think," or, "what if I'm wrong?" as a few examples. I'll continue to explore and study and see where I end up. I've been praying heavily for God to reveal things to me about His Church, and I don't think it's quite a coincidence that I'm starting to lead towards Catholicism. Though, I will dtill continue to study and see what He really has in store for me. Great video.
Imagine trying to keep someone from Jesus’s true presence in the holy Eucharist because RUclips said so.
Honestly It would be super convenient for me to remain Protestant, but truth is leading me somewhere else. I love the mysticism of the east but I struggle to find home in orthodoxy due to the ethnic and nationalist flavors that my latino/American self just doesn’t feel welcome in. The Catholic Church, I feel has sought to define everything so precisely that much of the mystery is gone but at least I’m very much welcomed regardless of ethnic and cultural ties or sometimes because of them. That said I still love the emotionally involved and open ended worship of the Pentecostal/charismatic churches I grew up in. I’m not sure I can have that in either the eastern or Latin churches.
There’s good smells and bells no matter where I end up I just wish I didn’t have to give up any of the good of either tradition.
@ Crayons Cereal. The Catholic Church has Charismatic Masses and Charismatic groups within the parish. One can go to one end of TLM to the other end Charismatic Masses.
I am not sure if you have explored enough with credible Catholic sources to find that "Catholicism has made precise definition of things that it loses the Mystery". Would you like to elaborate more? God bless. Well wishes from a Catholic convert.
Just a guess; can’t be Catholic because family would “disown” you?
If I’m right, I know where you’re coming from, I’m right there with ya Because it seem the ancient churches have a proper liturgy.
I just want to make sure it isn’t a fad you know? When I first came to Christ Calvinism was making it’s way through our community, and I’m glad that fizzed out.
@Joel Abraham It does matter which Church one goes to because there is only 1 interpretation of scripture that God intended as He doesn't double speak. There are many Protestant interpretations . For example my Bible Presbyterian classmate argued vigorously with my Charismatic Anglican classmate that the age of the Holy Spirit has ceased / not ceased. Both side would supported their arguments with quotes from the bible. So if you stay close to the bible, who do you believe ?
The frame of reference should be what the Apostles and the Early Church believed and which Church held the same beliefs as them today.
@Joel Abraham May we one day be one as Jesus has taught in John 17 :21
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Thanks for sharing some of your journey!
... And pray pray pray God to guide you 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Amen
Thank God I didn’t listen to you before I converted, I would have missed out on the deepest most profound life changing experience of my life
But what is the best expression of protestantism?
The more I study scripture and church history, the more convinced I remain protestant.
Really though? The more I read scripture and study church history the opposite happens. I feel like Protestantism has less of a leg to stand on. I feel like that in retaliation to the shortcomings of the Catholic Church that Protestants stepped away from what made Christianity special.
An excellent answer. I am so happy to hear this respectful and intelligent answer. Dr. Ortlund is encouraging many people to find a relationship with God, to seek His mercy and salvation, and this is above all else.
(Love from a satisfied Orthodox Christian)
Glad you enjoyed it!
I keep running into these catholics that use to protestant in my church. They are the ones that have the deeper theology and understanding of Catholicism than cradle catholics sometimes, which makes me question how we can do a better job at catechisim.
I have been a Catholic all my life. I am grateful for those evangelical Protestants who converted to Catholicism because, like St Paul, they just seems to have so much zeal and passion for the truth. They have really helped the Catholic Church grow and develop. I’m thinking people like Cardinal John Henry Newman, big also in more modern times I’m thinking of people like Taylor Marshall. They have all put a helped build the Catholic Church onto something better than it was. So, I’m very thankful for those Protestant converts who have added so much to the church. In a way they are “better” Catholics than most of the rest of us who have tended to be a bit lacklustre and lacking in zeal.
I'm thankful to the very many sincere Evangelical Protestants, some of them my close friends who because of their critism & questions led me to learn & appreciate more the RCC. I think I'm a better Christian for that.
@@MrLawle Yep, totally agree.
You don’t convert for any preferential taste reasons. You convert to Orthodoxy because it is our duty as Christians not to divide the body of Christ, the reformation is unprecedented in its achievements in that horrible outcome.
Great content and I appreciate the tone. I’m in RCIA myself. I’m coming from a Reformed Evangelical background. Two books in particular have been very helpful for me in the journey. “Roman but Not Catholic” by Walls & Collins, and “Biblical Authority After Babel” by Vanhoozer. I want to make certain that I’m following the truth. At this point I can’t affirm everything that the RCC does, however attractive and logical it seems.
I've enjoyed Roman but Not Catholic, but I haven't read Vanhoozer's book. I'll have to check that out!
@@GospelSimplicity For shame, this is the first Vanhoozer book I’ve read. His research is impeccable and I’m surprised by his wit!
I hope your able to find a good RCIA program. If your not sure about the one your going to the RCIA classes run by parishes that have the Traditional Latin Mass are usually very good. FSSP and ICKSP parishes are usually very good.
My advice! DONT DO IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO END UP IN HELL!
He is right that your shouldn’t romanticize it but I coverts to orthodoxy and most of the numerous converts I know spent years contemplating orthodoxy and it theology - many weren’t even looking for the orthodox church. This is what happened to me -
This is really great advice
Glad to hear that!
Would love to hear Dr. Gavin's statement of faith. Given all his research and Christian apologetics, what does one have to believe in to be a Christian in his view? Great interview, as always!
Great question! You might be able to find it on his church’s website (first baptist ojai)
@@GospelSimplicity Thanks! Oddly, he states both believing in "scripture alone" as well as "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints". How did Christians do this between 33AD and early 4th Century before the compilation of the books that became the Bible? Compiled by the same Christians that defined the faith in the Nicene Creed, which is not a creed he accepts (although his version includes-borrows many elements). Thanks again and God Bless your work!
@YAJUN YUAN I fully agree with this. Given that, how and when did all these congregations fall in error, after the unified canon (and during the time they all professed the Nicene Creed), to need a Protestant Reformation 1100 years+ later? God bless!
@YAJUN YUAN one more thing we agree on!
The Liturgy was literally instituted by the apostles. Thats why we have the Liturgy of St. James.
What I find interesting about this is that this man speaks about his beliefs without maligning or denigrating others for theirs.
When I saw this, I'd expected him to express hatred or disgust for Catholics and Orthodox, But he did not.
It's interesting to hear him talk about what faith means to him.
He also said that he doesn't have all the answers ( who does, right)
So many Protestants and Catholics act as though they know Everything.....
It's nice to see someone who doesn't despise or malign other Christians ( Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran)
It seemed to me that nominal Catholic convert to Protestantism for just exactly their smells and bells, namely rocking music, inspiring speeches that may or may not be bible based, having a good time fellow-shipping and deceptive lies about Catholic practices, like worshiping Mary & saints, works only based salvation.
Contrast this with well learned Protestant ministers some of them are extremely (anti-catholic), digging into ancient christian church to prove Catholics false and discovering that the church they opposed vehemently is indeed the church Jesus founded. They can't locate anything tenets of the Protestant faith in the early church. People like Scott Hahn, Steve Ray, Newman, and many many others here in www.ewtn.com/tv/shows/journey-home didn't converted to Catholicism based on a whim, but at a great cost to their livelihood as ministers.
A person's conversion should be based on Truth. Protestants put a lot of emphasis on faith, but it seemed in every turn, they tried to minimize the contents of it, invisible church unity, centralize belief in the Eucharist, etc.
Obviously, there's some nuance here in that many people convert for various reasons, but you bring up some fair points
Hi Austin, I absolutely love the work you are doing for the Body of Christ. Thank you for the opportunity to add my thoughts to the mix.
Considering converting? Everyone should think twice, and for 5 to 10 years at least. Church history does not de facto lead a Protestant/Evangelical to have to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. A thorough study of church history does not automatically come down in favor of EO or RC over Protestantism/Evangelicalism. Study long enough and you will discover that the original church/early church, which possessed the original Apostolic faith of Christ, slowly came to a division east and west. Then east and west "developed" their respective traditions. Church history also reveals that the Protestant reformation in the west was not a one-man show (Martin Luther), but the conclusion of centuries of numerous early reformers striving against heretical "developments" in the west/RC church.
Protestant/Evangelicals who are considering conversion need to look long and hard at church history and all the theological issues at stake. Instead of "reverting" to EO or RC, Protestant/Evangelicals should "reclaim" their rightful inheritance found in the Ancient Faith. Say yes to the Ancient Faith, dear Protestant/Evangelical, the Faith that has been handed down to you in the first 4 or 5 Ecumenical Councils. But say no to EO and RC and all their unbiblical accretions. The Roman Catholic church of today is not the continuation of the Ancient Faith, and neither is the Eastern Orthodox church. Both, the RC and EO, have no more right to the history of Christianity then the Protestants and Evangelicals. The accretions that both the RC and EO accumulated from 500 to 1500 A.D. are the very things that caused the early reformers and 16th century reformers to "protest" in the first place.
If you are a Protestant/Evangelical on a journey for "truth", do not allow yourself to be persuaded by EO and RC apologists who may take advantage of your ignorance of church history and the concurrent theological developments.
If you feel the urge to convert, slow down, and commit to at least several years of thorough research. Take a very deep dive into both EO and RC. First, Ask Austin (Gospel Simplicity) for a recommended reading list of 10 books by both EO and RC authors. And ten books that compare and contrast EO and RC. Second, visit as many EO and RC churches as possible. And third, visit EO and RC monasteries.
Many convert years before they should even consider conversion. Consider slowing down the process. Do not allow yourself to be hustled into conversion due to simplistic theological proofs, and idealized versions of church supremacy.
Pastors considering conversion??? Don't do it. The Protestant/Evangelical church needs you to acquire the mindset of the Ancient Faith, the knowledge of true theology, and the spiritual life of the monks and mystics so that you may lead your people into the depths of the Christian Faith that is usually missing from modern Protestant/Evangelical churches.
Forgive me any offenses.
This was a wonderful comment. I think one of the most important things here is don't allow your ignorance of church history to force you to convert to a tradition that knows history better than you. Protestantism at its best is theological retrieval, not avoidance of history. Really great advice here
Well for me an Orthodox your appoach is way too formalistic and intellectual, but in practical terms yeah, we too prefer converts to be rly solid in their decision to become Orthodox. If they later regret it and become Protestants that' d be apostasy and its a grave sin which we definately dont want any person to fall into.
Now my question is this? You claim you are the faith as it was before we corrupted it, you claim that you accept the 4 or 5 first Ecumenical Councils (4 or 5?😏), you made a humungous comment about it... and yet you never mentioned the specific point when this supposed turn happened. And don't tell me "it was a gradual process" please, because there still has to be a specific point in time.
this comment kinda contradicts itself, the churches at first 4 councils are relatively the same as they are today. they have the same theology and practices as they did back then.
Also be aware of the comfort of the familiar! Back in my church shopping days in Protestantism, I ended up spending most of my time at a church that I knew I disagreed with on important things for no other reason than that it was the place that felt the most familiar. "The grass may or may not be greener over there, but I definitely know how green it is here."
Great video, Austin. I appreciate Dr.Ortulund's learned perspective on all this and particularly appreciate how respectful he is in discussing such a thorny issue. This is progress.
Thanks! Amen
Don’t rush into anything as momentous as this!
Amen
@@GospelSimplicity and if you die tomorrow? Run to Jesus right away! To assume you have time to think about it is presumptuous. We are talking about your immortal soul that is at stake! Runn to Jesus immediately! He'll take you from there.
@@duals-growthofculture2085 yes, run to Jesus, but switching a church denomination? That should be done carefully and thoughtfully
@@GospelSimplicity Running to Jesus is not stopping to think about whether you are right about your thought or not. God's Word commands us to trust His Wisdom and to not lean on your own understanding. If Jesus calls you to be somewhere then don't stall to where you end up getting swallowed by a fish and put many people's soul in jeopardy. If Jesus tells you to go, then take heart and make haste!
This man is so wrong on many levels... of course don’t want to cause any hate.. For the longest time no matter what church I was in I could never fill the fulfillment and life style like the early Christians had. I needed that. In the Orthodox Church i have witnessed miracles, the blood and body of Jesus, the Holy Spirit in the sacraments, yes the bells and whistles and incense is beautiful however those are not why I am a orthodox Christian. I think this is mis leading..
I think you are misunderstanding his points. He is not trying to generalize all protestants with a broad brush. Try to take out your emotions and bias when you are trying to view someone's claim.
Why should Gavin care if a Protestant becomes Catholic, since OSAS means the new Catholic is still saved.
Agreed! I'm Catholic and any time I hear someone say they want to join the Catholic Church I ask the following questions:
How long have you thought and prayed about it?
Have you been to a Catholic Mass?
Have you discussed this with your family?
Have you studied, and I mean truly studied your current denomination and the Catholic Church?
I always tell people who want to convert to the Catholic Church to devote a minimum of six months to prayer and study of both their current denomination and the Catholic Church before making a haste decision. I've seen people convert to make their spouses happy, to make other people happy or because they were mad at their current pastor and don't know how to deal with that anger before running away, so I always make sure to take the time to make them fully understand what they are truly about to do and to help them make the right decision for them.
It takes 6-8 months+ to go through inquiry and RCIA to join the Catholic Church anyway. And you experience mass as well as study the theology of the church before being baptized and accepted. It is a thoughtful and deliberate process. You cannot simply jump into it rashly.
@@Americanheld Exactly! But I also encourage people to give it 6 months before even considering RCIA so they know they're doing what they're meant to do.