Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand SE vs. Harbeth HL Compact 7ES-3 XD
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Information regarding bass reflex port alignment audiojudgement...
Do you want to write me: 2channellistening@gmail.com
The Music Room; Contact Ben Klenk bklenk@tmraudio.com
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System Tested With:
Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 XD, NAD M10 v.1, NAD C388 w/BluOS Module, Ayre HiFi Rose RS250, Peachtree GaN400 amp, Peachtree Pre/Dac, iFi Zen One Signature Dac, Arylic S50 Pro+ Streaming/Dac, Audience & Audioquest cables.
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For those who do not know me and my habits, I love what Danny Richie does at GR Research. However, there are times where B.S. has to be called. I still watch Danny and will continue to watch Danny and appreciate his take and contribution to the HiFi world. When did we all get to a place where were not allowed to challenge convention, let alone opinions? Stay frosty people!
@@PaulSerat has that actually ever happened to you? I've never experienced a blown cap or failed resistor in a speaker. AV equipment yes, more so resistors not holding up.
@@2ChannelListening Legitimate criticism isn't the problem. Misrepresenting what Danny is doing is the problem. Measurement isn't everything, but it's never irrelevant. Accurate measurements are much more useful on average than a subjective perspective under the influence of a particular listening environment.
@Ken Hiett you are taking Danny’s measurements at face value. How do you know he’s not fudging the numbers to sell you his kits? I can assure you Vienna Acoustics has a lab much more sophisticated than GR Research and a team of formally educated Engineers that know what they’re doing. Same with Kef, Klipsch, and every other speaker maker that Danny shits on. Thousands and thousands of audiophiles across the world are still listening to their Vienna Acoustic speakers after 40+ years with their original crossovers and still sound amazing.
@@professorvoluck9311 👆👍
@@user-xs1xw3nx2d Thank you for watching and sharing. I think folks who watch Danny have a good sense of what value Danny brings to the hobby and what we all know about our systems through actual listening and experimentation. None of us go into this hobby really knowing what we are going to prefer and why. I hope you can fix your Revel situation. Cheers.
Great job as always, remember Danny is also a salesman for his upgrade products.
100% agreed and I can appreciate what he is doing. No love lost for him, just a little check.
Just found your channel and am really enjoying your content. I like how you review less common speakers that are still relatively affordable. Also cool that it seems like you are open minded enough to give each of the new reviewed speakers a chance to become your new reference. Keep it up.
Thank you so very much! Welcome aboard.
I agree and I have some similar speakers. Without getting long winded, I have found no more enjoyable speakers for classical music than Vienna Acoustics Bach's and Hayden Grands. I have them both and feel they are both keepers, however I discovered a long time ago I don't enjoy rock music through them either.
I also have Harbeth C7es and they are better all around speaker for all genres of music. They just don't give the airiness, openness and soundstage for classical and even some jazz that the Viennas provide.
Succinct and spot on. Thank you for your contribution.
I never heard these before but, a friend stayed they sounded good. I'll have to keep this in mind if I get a chance to audition them. Thanks.
Thank you for watching
I have the Vienna Haydn Grand Symphony bookshelfs and they are just amazing!Bought them from the Music Room.
So glad you like them, congratulations and thank you for watching!
interesting and thoughtful review. I have had the Mozart baby grand SE for almost 10 years. Love them but as you say they need to be fed a lot of clean power to bring out the bass and drum impact you are looking for and component matching is key. I find them beautifully musical and even emotional with some of the detail they pull out. Your note of the vocal location on live recordings is interesting and accurate but I do not notice the same "placement regression" on studio recordings. Part of me has always wondered that due the nature of live concerts a poor mix can see the vocals buried into the mix too much and they are just reflecting that especially a rock or metal concert where the singer is physically all over the place. With the right components these are magnificently elegant speakers. I will never sell mine but I admit I am now intrigued by your Harbeths though. Cheers.
Thank you for the background Sean and thank you for watching. You may find my Beethoven Baby Grand video even more interesting!
Thanks for this!
I like the crisp adjective. Although I wouldn’t call my Bach Grands crisp per se, they do have a great combination of warmth and detail that is very pleasing to my ears. Along with wonderful tone and texture. Do they have punch? No, and with those small drivers nobody should expect them to. But that’s what my Rel t9x is for.
Looking forward to the Beethoven vid. I am eyeballing a local used pair!
Thank you for your contribution and your nice compliment.
Question; what do you have your Rel cut off at? See the punch I am talking about is more than 60hz, the Mozart Grand SE lack punch in the snare and tom range as well. One wouldn't dare run their sub up past 100 hz, it would not blend well and sound horrible. The snap and punch of toms and snares are as important to me as Rodrigo Y Gabriella smacking the side of their guitars for rhythm and beat effect. Thank you sir, enjoy those Bach's!
Great video! I have a pair of Mozart Grands in piano black that I got used locally for $500/pr. Previous owner claims he had less than 100 hours on them, He bought them new and soon after got relocated to the area, and kept them in boxes for years as his new home theater room was prewired with in-wall speakers. Not sure if I believe him, but I have no reason not too. Speakers look like they came right out of the box. I set them up first on a Marantz AVR with 50WPC, but then picked up an Adcom GFA545 with a conservative 100 WPC and when commenting to that they just SING. I THOUGHT I had a great sounding set of speakers, until I happened across Danny's two videos. I contemplated doing his upgrade, but before sinking money into them, I did some room measurements with REW and once they are in my room, they do not exhibit those crazy curves when measuring them from the listening position. I also spent some time moving them around, as well as making some changes to the layout of my room. All have had a very positive impact and I have no desire to mess with them.
I listen to a wide variety of music - metal, rock, grunge, blues, jazz, EDM, classical, etc. Almost everything except Pop and Country (with the exception of Billy Eilish as I LOVE the way her and her brother's compositions sound!). All of those genre's sound great on these. The bass is very strong considering the small size of the drivers - almost too strong as I have a few peaks in my room (50Hz and 80Hz) that can get out of control. Things I have noticed with these - placement is VERY important, small changes in toe-in open up the sound stage immensely, and changes in chair height (or the tilt that you have) are also very noticeable. Perhaps one of the negatives of these is that the off-access response varies a lot and is VERY evident.
I see you had some video of the crossovers of the SE's. Any chance you could share the specs of the resistors and caps? I am wondering if VA made any changes to the crossovers when going from the Grand to the Grand SE, OR if they only changed the bass driver.
Thanks again, and you have a new sub!
MJ, thank you for this exception share. I have since sent the VA back to The Music Room, I generally try to take a complete picture of crossovers, yet the nature of that board I did not capture very well. One could run and pause the Beethoven BG video to capture most of what's on that 16" board. Much different components. I am glad you find such pleasure (not to mention such a great purchase price) with the VA Mozarts. The thing with measuring a speaker in my room is it will not exhibit the same behavior in your room or Danny's room. I do not dwell on that too much, I merely do my best to extract what I can from a speaker (or component) with a few combinations and report my findings. This is what I like...this is what I don't and determine if I have a new reference or send it back.
I thank you for your interest and for subscribing to my madness :-) Welcome aboard.
One speaker you might want to compare these to are the all new Revival Audio Atalante 5 speakers they can hang with the Big Boys but are much cheaper !
Best-Kept Secret on the Market...Right Now !
Great mention, even the Atalante 3 at $2,490 looks good. Only one North American importer so far. I can add them to my manufacturer list. Thank you Rick!
The older versions fetch $500 to $800 with GR Research updates on the cheesy parts seems like a fun upgrade. Great reviews Jason. Still happy with my Zu DWE2. Thanks 😊
As you should be, ZU are fantastic for the coin. Thanks for watching
I think the review that Danny Richie does is on a very old pair of Viennas. I've got a pair of Bach, with the floating tweeter, but there's bachs that go back a long way that do not have the same setup in the tweeter. The Viennas will tend to take on the characteristic of anything you feed them. They reveal changes in cables very much too. I've got a collection of power cables, interconnects and speaker cables and you can easily hear the sonic character of each cable, so the Viennas can be very finely tuned to your tastes. They can be very musical, very large scale , very wide and deep in imaging, go very low and have great top end. Vocals can be fantastic, male and female. At times I've heard and felt the studio ambience and it's felt like I'm in the studio environment. Likewise they can put you in the midst of a live concert or night club. A very versatile speaker in deed.
Thank you for watching and leaving such great comments Robbie. The second pair Danny covers is one gen back from the full SE's I had. Cheers.
Measurements will tell you if they have problems with distortion and are they easy to drive. Then how flat the frequency response is. Then you can make a decision as to if they are worth a listen or not. I have some fantastically measured speakers, and you guessed it, they sound superb ! Mad don't you think !
Why would the thought be "mad?" You prefer flat frequency speakers, entirely your prerogative. You seem to misplace your passion for ruler flat measurements as some dictate of black and white metrics in a very colorful audiophile world.
Thanks for watching.
@@2ChannelListening why would anyone want to add any flavour to music ? I’ll add it when I want.
I almost bought these. They are decent speakers. You can enjoy listening to them despite not being 'highly resolving' etc. However, we do enjoy speakers like Klipsch Heresy, KLH Model 5 and its likes. The Mozart Grand SE is enjoyable to listen to music without the need to hear the vocalist's saliva.
Fair enough, thank you.
Vienna Acoustics MAESTRO GRAND REFERENCE "Center" Loudspeaker: cherry
I have to tell you a quick story I played this center speaker for my wife last night for the first time she ever heard HIFI, she was listening, she goes, what’s that noise ?? and I said what noise? she goes can you hear that ? Sound she goes you can hear like this other background tapping, and I said that’s because your ears are hearing the full range. That didn’t connect yet, but it was really a fun expression to see. That face when they are hearing something for the first time. I bet others, that like hi-fi, also know, you know That look. It’s like wow. So yeah, I agree these are very good speakers & I’m very happy with it . Vienna Acoustics MAESTRO GRAND REFERENCE "Center" Loudspeaker: cherry
Very glad I’ve bumped in to this review sense that is not much of Vienna on RUclips .
I’m very interested on how you placed the speakers when you where reviewing them!!
I’ve had mine for about two years in 2 different rooms .
One is 19 square meters and the other 22.
I starting to consider replacing them because they never seem to sing and I don’t know what placement to try anymore because I’ve run out of Alternatives 😢
I have a tube preamp and a 20w pure klass A power amplifier .
I would be really great full if you could share you experience.
Greetings Mikaelsson, feel free to send me an email. I put my listing set up chart in each video for this exact reason 👍
@@2ChannelListening
Thanks!
I will get in touch 🥂
I have one of the Mozart.The description on this video is what I feel but for my point of view quite worst. Before I had the Harbeth 30.1
Interesting remark, so you had an older version of the Mozart, probably like the one tested at GR Research?
@@2ChannelListening Hello, thanks for the answer. I have the Mozart Grand SE in beautiful black piano. For me it is a transparente speaker, but not have soul, music is clinic, flat not natural. Acoustic instrument never sound like them and from my point of view the stage is the worst characteristics of this speakers instead Harbert excel it far away . For electronic music they sound well, as example they stand out with Interstellar (Hans Zimmer). Cheers.
@@luisdimarco5102 Hello Luis, thank you for the broader explanation. I guess we all experience set ups differently. Glad you love your Harbeth, I for one feel the two companies have more in common with their design philosophy and sound signatures than not. I say it often, component synergy is key. Thank you for watching and commenting.
Great video - Your matchup of these speakers has solved a long held question I too have held. Well done. Interested that you have started listening tests using Alison Krauss an artist always in rotation in my collection. Have you also considered using Eva Cassidy (ie Simply Eva Cassidy) as a test recording?
Time after Time is such a lovely song. Thank you for the reminder and for your compliments. I will keep her in mind.
remindes me amplifier musical fidelity m3si, ..simmilar experience but there even , yes you also hear the low end tones but it was like if all lower end notes (lets say whol low end drums) you close behind the door,..meaning yes even worst because not only you do not feel it, it was by 5 db under the rest of spectrum
Good comparison. Cheers.
There are some sounds I cannot hear well like the monotone distortion jazz guitar on my old monitor audio speaker probably because crossover parts got really old but they play very well on my Wharfedale, but most music are still nice and warm on it. Speakers are like the singers vocal system I think, they all sound so different like we have different voices, but some voices cannot sing well as others for sure. It's not just subjective thing as far as speakers are concerned, specially speakers actually. As music fan you keep spending time and money and by the time you experienced enough you mixed and matched gears to your preference and they may be just right for your listening position for your room and not for others. As far as frequency response goes I always remember what sound I cannot hear well from certain speakers and I often listen to same new song on my other speakers just to see what all there is. I really prefer speakers with more evenly responding for all tones. I can add preference to speaker as far as tone goes with equipments but not when speaker is not capable on specific tone range I know I'll be missing out on something and I think I have in the past till I kept adding in different speakers and gears. I'm sure there are much to enjoy like this one your reviewing. It's just too bad some speakers cost way too much for me.
Very wise feedback sir, I appreciate your contribution and experiences shared. Thank you for watching and taking the time to leave such a thoughtful comment. You are very right, the combinations for each of us are endless as well as the variables we introduce with our listening spaces. It sure is fun finding those heroic combinations!
What do the videos of.the butterfly and seniors rubbing their ears have to do with anything?
The butterfly was aimed at my macro lens comment. The seniors is because I couldn't find a better ear video at the time of edit.
I always assumed the speakers had to be played to get measurements? I'm confused by the opening statement. So. I would of love to have heard them before and after GR did the changes. I'm not sure I'm tuned enough to appreciate the differences .
Measurements are taken with sweeps and pink noise, no music has to be played to get the measurements. I like to think each speaker has a design philosophy behind it, with an intended target audience (buyer). To completely dismiss a speaker as "bad" without investigating its purpose or trying to ascertain what it does sonically...not cool in my book. Some camps of thought will never be bridged.
@@2ChannelListening good to know
Very very interesting video
Thanks for dropping in.
Hi Jason...I presently own Dali Rubicon 6 and was either going to get a Dali 14" subwoofer or I have a chance to get a pair of Harbeth HL Compact speakers...I'm wondering if I get the Harbeth HL Compact would they be fine without a sub?...I'm thinking the Harbeth HL Compact are perhaps a better quality sounding speaker than my Dali Rubicon 6...even though the rubicon 6 are a floor speaker with an extra 2 drivers...hmm... please give me your professional opinion...I respect your opinion! and not really sure how your Harbeth HL Compact 7E differ from the original HL Compact that I'm looking at buying?
Amir does listen to them so he says. But I agree with you. I wish you lived closer I would invite you over to hear any pair of Salk Sound speakers I have on hand
I would love too!
hello Jason, I am curious if you tried the Mozarts with the Titania
Hi Vittorio, I had to send the Vienna speakers back.
Thanks! Hey how do you like these Harbeths compared to the Heco Celans? Let’s say you’re in a smaller to med sized room so they don’t need to be blasted to reach desired SPL. I absolutely LOVE the Celans. What other bookshelfs do what they do, with the same personality, but does it even better?
I love the Celans airy vibrant highs that fall just short of fatiguing, and I love how their presentation is projected INTO the room. In my HT that’s well-treated and with the Celans properly dialed in, I get such a fantastic 3D holographic presentation that makes everyone believe my surrounds & heights are playing. They made my Dynaudio Emit M20 & Excite X18 sound 2-dimensional by comparison. Do these Harbeths do that as well? That’s what I’m after- the best holographic sound, paired with crisp airy highs, incredibly lifelike textured vocals that are pushed into the room rather than recessed, enough low end to make them exciting, and quick enough to keep pace w/o smearing. Cheers & thanks. 🍻
Hi Todd, the Harbeths have their strengths in the mid-band, vocals and over all non-fatiguing nature. However, I would say that as much as I love the SHL5+ and C7, their larger cabinet, baffles did not allow them to fully disappear in my smaller room. I had mentioned in my video of the Celan's, how uncanny they are a lower volume levels. The only other speakers to do what they do at such low levels were those Performance One speakers from Eryk S. Concept, yet the Celan are easier to deal with. The Aperion V8B also come close, but not down low.
I'm in agreement with you, the drivers used in the Heco have some efficiency magic and as much as the cabinets bug me, they do a better job of getting out of the way when not pushed. The Ryan R610 speakers I am working with are resolve champs and can project out very well, but I 'm also struggling with how long I can listen, even at lower than my normal playback levels. The Totems are another matter best saved for the future video. Speaking of Harbeth money, why wouldn't you go Belladonna at that point?
I’ve just always been curious about a used pair of Harbeths that I could get at a great price and then flip w/ little to nothing lost if I didn’t want to keep them. 🍻
HA! I wish on the Belladonnas!!!!! How ‘bout this for a major kick in the sack - I drove 80 minutes to Audio Advice Raleigh to give the Belladonnas a listen bc I knew their GM ordered a pair for the store itself to demo. They were off in a separate 14x16 or so room. It took all of 5 seconds to go HOLYYYY S**T!!! Soooo much power! I thought my Contour 20’s sounded large [which they do] and these took ‘em behind the woodshed! Long story short, I sat in a recliner and listened to these gorgeous beasts for about 45 minutes, pulled up my trusty playlist, and got lost in them. Prior to the session I was told the demo pair was available… for about 3k or so. I was salivating! I finished my demo and went back to the salesman who proceeds to inform me they’re already sold. 😩😭 Just my damn luck, lol. But he says I “MAY” be able to order them new at their regular retail price of around $5500. They’re probably well worth that and I’d take them over all the other flagship speakers of other manufacturers, but 5k is too deep into my pockets.
…. and so for now I’ll stick with the Celans, which, incidentally, I like even more than my Contour 20’s, and that’s in a 12x14 sealed treated room with a max SPL in the 87-91 range. The Fluktus tweeter IMO sounds every bit as great as the Esotar2. It’s interesting bc I EQ’d up the Contours to make them more open & lively, and doing so makes them sound similar enough to the Celans that you could tell me the Celans are a special Dyn speaker positioned between Special 40 and Heritage Special and I would totally believe it. I couldn’t get the Contour tweeter to match the vibrancy of the Celan tweeter though. It fell just short of that before introducing some sibilance & slightly hard edges. Do I need to be in a Beryllium tweeter to duplicate the Celan’s same or similar presentation?
I am still curious as to why Audio Advice is being so limited and selective with the Heco line up. You know what I am saying when it comes to fatigue from seeing the same brands like Monitor Audio get so much attention for such a compromised performance. I was not aware you have Contours, are they the "i" or prior gen? I admittedly keep looking at the 20i and the crossover bugs me...comparing the parts against what's in my Totem and Ryan speakers, I'm reminded of the fight to stay with smaller boutique builders.
I'm not sure about the difference in the Contour and Confidence line of Esotar tweeters? I've heard the Confidence and was very impressed, although if I wasn't, bigger problem with such price points. I cannot say or comment on treble performance gaps, not enough seat time, let alone trial in my own space.
It is possible I am not done playing with different damping materials and potentially adding a brace to the Heco cabinet. With a better crossover and stiffer cabinet, I agree with you, I think those drivers can elevate the game beyond what they are tied to. My experience with BE tweeters is very limited still; by all intents and purposes, they are supposed to be the answer to the best high frequency performance. I maintain a soft spot for ribbon tweeters.
I appreciate your background with the Audio Advice experience and your Dynaudio reveal. You and I do share a strange admiration for what Heco is and can be. Mine are in my office for daily use. Cheers.
I know how passionate and well informed you are about 2 channel hifi, and I love it. But are you being fair making a joke of the GR Research videos on bad measuring Vienna acoustics products, while you only listened to the revised versions of those same products?
JK, I love what Danny does, I've been watching him for years. I just happen to find it ironic that Danny did to Vienna Acoustic's what Amir has done to so many audio companies. How is it fair to call a speaker design bad without also Confirming the anomalies with a listen? How can he throw in his own drivers without getting a feel for what the existing drivers sound like? I love sports cars, I could call the Toyota Prius a horrible car (older versions) and because it doesn't meet certain performance numbers I choose, I condemn the engineers and designers of the Toyota Prius. Thoughts?
I'll chime in and say reviewers that only base their reviews on measurements alone have a place in the Audio overview. Just as reviewers who rely on listening alone offer insights of their own. I personally would and have benefitted from reviewers who who employ both approaches & explain how said measurements affect the sound of speakers they are reviewing. Also, I'm not a huge fan of fix it kits, even if it is a deal. If there are ideal transducers, all these companies can hang up their coats and call it a day, saving us all kinds of time and expense.
Very fair assessment. The challenge with measurements is the vary nature of their process. Are we all to assume the frequency curves and characteristics measured 1M or 50" away will hold up with both left and right channels to the listeners seated position, be it 8', 8.5', 9' on and on. Then not even those who measure are being replicated under the same controlled environment with the rooms being the same dimensions (yes I know near field measurements are supposed to nullify those interactions) but then how does the room interactions change the frequency response characteristics? Full of landmines.
Timothy, thank you for your thoughtful post.
Measurements?.If you bought based on that, you'd NEVER buy a tube amp.They measure just horrible but many of course sound fantastic to many people.
The opposite is sometimes the case with Class D. They can measure incredibly well yet sound lifeless to some .
Very good point about tube amps Bryan. Depends on the order of the harmonics.
@@2ChannelListening Yes, it gets even crazier.Nelson Pass on his $10,000 First Watt single ended Monoblocks has an "Add Distortion Control" to add 2nd order Harmonics if you want to please your ear a bit more ( add 'Salt and Pepper to taste haha)
Lack of punch on the Vienna? I have the smaller Bach speakers. NO lack of punch in my system I can tell you. It's about what you're driving them with and it can come down to cables, not just the equipment. I'd call the Viennas chameleons in their nature. They'll take on anything you feed them and colour themselves accordingly. These can certainly punch. Ask my neighbors and my sore guts.Is true what he says about vocals being 5 feet back. However, once again, they can be tuned and I've spent a $$ and time experimenting. You can get them where the vocalist is in the room that's for sure. You can get them where you're in the room with the musicians. Minor toe in helps and high quality copper cables everywhere will bring out that missing imaging. I use no filtering in my system and they like that too. They really change with every minor change i've tried so if you're a tweaker, you can tweak forever with these, if you really wanted to. 3 power amps mine have liked are Dynavector HX1.2 , Son of Ampzilla 2, OAD ( from Australia ). Did ok with Musical Fidelity but they needed to be turned up quite loud before the amp came to life. Viennas will image well at very low volumes if you've got good gear.
How about a Yamaha NS-5000 review?
Holy smokes, not sure I can get my hands on a pair of those .
I think it's bad form to bash a speaker on measurements alone, but it must be noted that speakers that measure well are also those that usually preferred subjectively. I listened to various VA speakers many moons ago at the big box audio store they were sold at at the time as pseudo high end speakers, and found them lifeless and un involving . In a word, boring. They may be very different now, I can't say.
Thanks Will. Certainly lots a variables in there. I've found lots of so called aiming for 'accurate' speakers fatiguing in the long run. Probably why there are thousands of speaker designs out there. Someone always thinks they solved a puzzle.
Hi, I am new to your music room, sorry are you territorial on the loudspeaker cabinets was sort of interesting put a pity that you didn’t play some music so we could hear what They sounded like but obviously you’d have to upload music 24 bit or 32 bit I don’t know whether you’ve got that facility, I look very nice, No idea what they sound like, I built my loudspeaker cabinets just over 40 years ago and I just recently put new drivers into them made by SEAS , They are a transmission line stand around about 1 1/2 m in height they are a rough copy of something what does put in a magazine back in the 70s with a note of a colleague who was into electronics he built the crossover units and I built my cabinets they don’t look much to look at just painted white but they sound amazing, I have listened to loudspeaker cabinets that cost in excess of £20,000 and they don’t come anywhere near my cabinets, I suppose everybody has got their opinion on what is good and what is bad and as you said you need to listen to a speakers and as we know you can listen to something in a showroom bring it home and put it in your listening room and they will change completely they will sound different with different response, I look forward to hearing some more territorials about loudspeaker cabinets and hi-fi equipment, PHIL FROM THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOULIN FRANCE.
Thank you for this thoughtful comment Phil, welcome! There are a few pieces lost in translation, so forgive me if I do not completely address your points/questions. I prefer to not bother with recording music via RUclips. The variance from what I hear live to what I hear compressed after upload is completely skewed. It is simply not worth all that effort.
Over here, Meadowlark Audio produced some terrific transmission line speakers with equally lovely (period correct) cabinets, but alas, went out of business. *Yes I know McGinty is building very low production number, bespoke active speakers, but they are nothing like his old designs.* Nevertheless, I am glad you were able to make your dream speaker and it did not cost you the price of a decent car! I hope to read more from you in the future!
I'm not saying I personally agree with what GR Research does, but I think you're taking him a little out of context. When people send Danny speakers, that usually means they're not happy with them in some way. So, from his perspective, he needs to fix something. Speakers are not sent to him for review. He doesn't have to like or dislike them.
As for modifying the speakers, his system is to take initial measurements, find weaknesses in those measurements, and then correct the speaker so that they measure better. That's what he is getting paid to do, and that's what the customer wants and expects him to do. His personal, subjective thoughts on the before and after, are not relevant.
All I'm trying to say here Danny's customers are asking him to do exactly what he does, and when he reviews the before and after measurements, he does so to show that he did his job. Its nothing more than that. We all have to make our own choices. Personally, I don't buy speakers that need to be fixed. However, in certain cases, I can see where Danny's services may be the right choice. If someone is having an issue with a pair of speakers, and the measurements explain the problem, fixing the speaker may be someone's best option. Especially if its a rare or expensive speaker.
As for some of the other channels, like Junk Science Amir, are complete frauds. They pretend to do science in order to get people to trust them, and in return, they just tell people exactly what they want to hear. Every time they test a product, the cheap one is almost always better. Who doesn't want to hear the $200 product is always better than the $2000 product? Its a great way to built a yourube channel. This happens in a lot of other industries besides audio. Scotty Kilmer is a perfect example. He's not a mechanic, and knows very little about cars, but millions of people follow him because he tells them what they want to hear.
You may have not read my other notes, I take no issue with Danny's service, none. He's a businessman and I respect that. I understand Danny's process, I've been watching him for a few years. There are plenty of speakers that need help, especially older vintage units.
Dismissing the carefully developed VA drivers without testing them to see if they were the issue or just the crossover seems like jumping the gun. Correct me if I am wrong, he didn't change the crossover and then give/show us those results. He changed the crossover and changed out the bass and midrange drivers as a total makeover. Yes, ultimately the customer is getting what he wants. Many Danny defenders on this issue keep overlooking the impact of removing those drivers. Now, I said in my video its not a 1:1 comparison as I had the next gen SE with the spider cone woofer, but the mid-woofer is the same.
Thanks for taking the time to write and explain what you watched and your thoughts about the two videos. Regarding Scotty...lol...he absolutely gets views because of his quirks. Cheers.
@@2ChannelListening I think you were reading a bit too much into my post. I wasn't trying to single you out. Maybe I should have been a bit more clear, but my post was to reply in general. After reading some of the other posts I got the impression that they didn't realize why Danny was just going over the before and after specs.
Just to be clear, I'm not defending Danny. I was just clarifying what his role is in all this. This situation isn't about Danny or me, you or anyone else. Its about the customer. For whatever reason, they weren't happy with the speakers, and they wanted Danny to perform his service and make the speaker measure better.
"Dismissing the carefully developed VA drivers without testing them to see if they were the issue or just the crossover seems like jumping the gun. Correct me if I am wrong, he didn't change the crossover and then give/show us those results."
I'm not saying you are right or wrong. You are, however, taking it personally. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. We've all been there. I used to be way worse and completely flip out when I thought someone was judging a product I liked unfairly. Its not easy, but I had to make a choice. I could keep getting mad and offended, or I just had to accept the fact some people won't like products I think are the best.
There's just no right or wrong here. Everyone makes their own choices, and that's how it has to be. For the record, I agree with you on this. If it was my speakers, I wouldn't have sent them to Danny. I would have found a different solution.
@@AT-wl9yq No harm no foul...I didn't mean to come off as defensive, so I failed there.
I jumped on requesting a home audition of both sets of VA speakers well after having watched Danny's video's and that is what prompted my own reaction (post break in period). I was very apprehensive going into it because of Danny's tests and more important how he followed up. Again, I absolutely agree with you, the customer deserves to be happy and get what he/she wants - even if that means throwing another $1,000 or so at the VA's.
I will say it again, Danny's video was a good reminder to me, to be careful how I articulate my own "dislikes" of speaker personality, sonic attributes and possible poor front end equipment matching. I try to do things in threes when I can. Three different speakers with an amp or three different amps with a speaker as well as a couple different DAC's.
Please, I appreciate your detailed response, I do. I fully accept different opinions and challenges to what I am presenting. I do not want an echo chamber at my channel, provided folks are civil and stick to the methods or products. I can handle publicly correcting myself 😄😝
Thank you!
I've heard my Magnepans measure like crap.
Same with my Parasound JC-2 pre-amp.
Oh well, I guess I'll never hear a "real" audiophile system...I'm OK with that.
Preach it! Lol, thank you for watching.
Yeah shame about my JC2 measuring so bad….. Sounds great to me.
Electriclitic caps ?
hey, I'm thinking about buying Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand or Audiovector qr3. Is Vienna a good choice because after watching this movie I have mixed feelings ;)
As I would say to anyone, a great deal of other factors matter. I cannot recommend one over another if I do not know several sets of data points about your personal preferences. Based on mine, if I had a larger room, I would go with the Beethoven Baby Grand and call it a day. Someone else might buy a pair of REL T/9x subs with the Mozart Grand SE and live happily ever after. Regarding Audiovector, they are not readily available in the US. They do not exist on our second hand market yet, so I cannot comment on their performance.
@@2ChannelListening My room is 20sqm. I have a Primare a30.2 power amplifier and a pre amp and PRIMARE i15 Prisma. I listen to a lot of jazz and electronic music.
@@tomaszwarcho2656 What speakers do you currently have? What do you like best about them, what do you like least and what characteristic would you improve upon them if you could?
@@2ChannelListening Currently I have Triangle Borea br 08. I would like to have good bass because I listen to jazz and electronics. But I also like a big stage and musicality.
@@tomaszwarcho2656 You would get a big, wrap around stage with the Mozart Grand SE, yet you would require a good REL subwoofer for added depth and visceral excitement.
Amir?🤔🤫😬😉
🤐😉
The word “enveloped” should have the the 2nd syllable accented, not the 1st. 😏
Noted, thank you
Yeah he is ridiculous. measurements like that only count for near field If you're using it for studio mixing, You pull away further distance say 2 m + all your measurements will change anyway, all depends on the company how they've set up their measurements for what distance probably around 3 m.
Who's this other RUclipsr who likes measurements I don't know them.
Mr. HG, you the man! I was referring to the Audio Science Review crowd. Though I have seen Amir improve by setting up listening tests after measurements - kudos where kudos belong.
@@2ChannelListening yeah I know who you mean he hasn't been on for a while amir, yeah he's good does a lot of debunking. Why don't you get some vanderstein 3a signature all of his ranges are good. He makes some of the best speakers in the world some people say the best!?
@@hoobsgroove Many people say many speakers are the best. It's still good to have variation. It's also good to have some speakers based on good measurements. For me I'd probably aim for something with good measurements but also pleasing to listen to. And then play around with other speakers that may not measure perfect (or have any at all) and see if I like that. Usually I find something to complain about after a while which can be a big problem for audiophiles. In the end it's up to the individual to be satisfied.
Thanks for your video. I lived with Harbeth 7 es3 (not XD) last 2 years, and yes- they have its limitations (bass fundament and in high frequencies to…) but they are much better compared to Vienas ….
I had have This model of Vienas cca 4 years ago - they was my worst speakers i owned :-(
The Vienas has bad woofer cones (They are to soft polimers) & have not enough strong magnet motors (therefor has Vienas limited dynamics)
But this is just mi experience, … in my system are in this price level Harbeths on much higher soud quality level than Vienas….
Certainly in the ear of the beholder, I appreciate your feedback and contribution. Thank you
Do you have spikes under your harbeth? I added some wooden spikes and now its almost too detailed!
@@aleksandarstojceski3139 Hello. no, I don't have … I use TonTräger wooden stands, no spikes. With the Harbeth 7, I don't like the sound color of the aluminum tweeter :-/ And also the lack of detail in the highs - but this is due to the construction, because I made measurements and found that after 12 kHz the sound drops sharply by many decibels.... in fact, they don't play above 15kHz anymore
@@opiusclay Yes i also mesured them but its gentle 3db drop. They do plays 20k of course but no adult can hear that high.
@@aleksandarstojceski3139 I used little hard rubber dots.
I fell asleep listening to you,
LOL, well I say that's a win win for both of us! I'm your cure for insomnia, you give me extra video watch time when you need to pass out!
@@2ChannelListening great response
I played on 1.75 speed😅
Danny wasn't reviewing the Vienna Mozart's. I think you're confused about what Danny is doing.
I watched both video's twice. Help me out, what is he doing exactly from your perspective?
@@2ChannelListening You don't honestly need me to make a list of what constitutes a typical product review, do you? I assume you know how to use Google. Danny is usually measuring speakers for people interested in an upgrade kit. People who understand his customized kits are tailored to the data, not a subjective listening experience.
Okay Ken, Danny's drivers are better than Peter's drivers because Danny says so. Got it.
@@2ChannelListening That's not what I'm arguing and my sarcastic comment about Google comes off harsher than intended. Reviews are a specific thing Danny isn't doing. Whether or not someone agrees with Danny's assessment based on the results of his measurements is another matter. Whether or not someone prefers the original sound signature vs. the GR-Research customized version is a different issue entirely.
@@kenhiett5266 Thank you for coming back to smooth out what you meant. Ultimately, I agree that each owner has every right to modify till their hearts are content and Danny is well know for this. I do not begrudge Danny anything - I really only took heart on this one because Danny came off they way ASR "used" to when running test measurements without any kind of listening validation. I do not like several B&W speakers I have tried, but I would never call them a bad speaker. Danny called the Mozart "Grand" a bad design without obtaining further insight. Now, I cannot help if Danny did reach out to VA and received zero input the way I have...customer service is the bane of all our existence. Thank you for your time and dialogue.
Interesting comparison! Thx. Have always wondered about Harbeth speakers and the like --particularly the thin wall construction.
Am familiar with the Mozart Grand --the predecessor of Grand SE. Externally, these two models are virtually identical --except for the lower spider cone bass driver on the SE. Spider cone? It doesn't have eight legs and isn't going anywhere.
Haven't heard the latest Grand SE, but the Grand's overall character is also warm and laid back, with good bass and crispy, extended highs. It's a pleasant-sounding speaker. For those who are classical music lovers and want to hear a reminiscence of a live performance in a small or medium room, the Grand does this admirably. It's overall tone, texture and presentation would remind one of the sounds heard in a concert hall. It is not without reason that the entire speaker line was named after some of the most prominent classical composers. Mozart and Haydn, Bach and Beethoven... Hey where are Chopin and Schubert, Brahms and Tchaikovsky? That's okay, the Mozart seems to do justice to those Romantic era composers too.
The Grand bass is prominent for its size, spacious and weighty --and a bit loose. But live massed string basses kind of sound like that. Separation of instruments is easy to discern and follow, e.g. when massed violins and cellos/basses playing different lines simultaneously. Double-bass notes, usually coming from the right speaker with orchestral recordings, are distinct and reasonably defined, with life-like tone and proper weight (albeit a miniature version).
Perhaps there is a slight emphasis somewhere in the lower treble, which tends to make unamplified massed violins sound a bit sharper, crispier than live. But amplified female vocals sound wonderful, with a sheen, clarity and presence..
I'm sure there are a number of very proper classical purist who find fault with the hierarchy of the Vienna line up, with Liszt at the top :-)
I agree with your entire description. I do love listening to classical with the Mozart Grand SE - truly impressive with that genre as a whole. Thank you for watching and contributing further.
For some reason my ears hate everything besides zu omen def lol maybe eventually ill hear something that will make me wanna buy it
Ha ha, I guess I have built up the reputation of those Omen Def's a little too much huh? Thanks for the great comment.
@@2ChannelListening they are great i have had them for 2 and half years. Hopefully i can get my hands on a pass labs 30.8 soonish
@@dgreenly1 there you go, a magical match for sure 🤌. Do you have the Radian update?
@@2ChannelListening im not sure mine are the mk1b and have reciepts for a cap upgrade as well i got from orginal owner. I heard them and spent way more then was orginally planing i was gonna order dw lol
Have you considered asking Duncan if he would consider you as his partner to revive his podcast?
I appreciate this question Tom. I'm not employed by TMR and still have a loose affiliation. They help me, I help them. It is a good thought, unfortunately, I'm already burning 80+ hours a week. Thanks for watching.
Danny is full of it. Some of us don't mind saying it.
Well, you can pick up the phone and call him and say it to him yourself, explain to him what you mean, instead of typing here, anonymous. Otherwise are you full of it.
Another viewer beat me to the punch to say that Danny is a shrewd businessman - I generally enjoy his video's. I piss plenty of people off simply by existing! :-)
Danny accused Siegfried Linkwitz of being full of it. His takedown of Linkwitz Orion. He's a fraud.
@@bruce8429 I didn't catch this, is it a video Danny made?
Yep.
Maybe RUclips Audio Library might be useful to you. For example.
m.ruclips.net/video/t1ifHw_tkJk/видео.html
Hi Ron, what are you referring this to? Intro? I do not use RUclips studio for editing. Nice tune though, I appreciate this.
@@2ChannelListening I wasn't thinking of anything in particular, but assuming this
is royalty free music that you can employ in your videos, then this is a resource you may want to utilize. ----- just a thought. P.S. I've bought these for my significant other based on this review. I got her a Powernode for it.
ruclips.net/video/gPtviaR1X2Y/видео.html
@@ron521 sweet that you have a significant other who will appreciate them! I thank you for your consideration. I certainly have some improvements I need to employ soon. Let me know how the Canton demo goes.