The problem is not even that the wayland is a burger. The REAL problem is that people are yet to agree on what the "burger" is, since there are multiple significant specification discussions going on at this very moment like the mentioned shortcut problem, or the window focusing API (for a window to require itself to come on top), or the 10k different IME-required api standards with each compositor and IME provider supporting some of the versions, while not supporting the others.
The only way to actually use this mess is to sit on gnome/kde that listen to users or be a developer of wlroots. Unless you are a developer any issue with wlroots implementation can basically go unimplemented/unmerged for years. The development is driven AND done 100% by the people that are using it, so if those guys do not feel the need to implement whatever is that you desperately want/need, you are pretty much left on your own.
I really hope we will finally get some decent hotkey framework. GTK2 had something like that, and so you could e.g. enable a Vim mode in all your supported application It would just be great to have all the hotkey logic be handled uniformly and transparently, outside of the applications themselves
Shortcut problem is WIP that's true, xdg-desktop-portal based solution is coming along nicely, and wlroots guys will most likely do something different and then wrap it in desktop portal like they usually do. (mostly to fight with dbus based solutions) But window focusing API? It's standardized in wayland protocols already. No major discussion on that. IME is also standardized, it has some known problems tho, it's a hard problem space and implementors are not focusing on it that much. The analogy that parties have to agree on what burger is, is good, and most likely true, but your examples don't align with reality in my opinion.
My experience with wayland has been almost completely positive. Games now have less input lag, everything is generally more responsive, and I have had zero problems related to wayland. Obviously this is not everyone's experience, but I just want to put that out there. I've only used KDE and GNOME on AMD and intel graphics, so sway and NVIDEA may have a rougher time.
Same experience here with Intel and Sway. Basically almost zero tearing, is a bit more responsive than Xorg. I don't use compositors on X11 since they introduce more lag in games and performance flops. In Firefox I don't even notice tearing while scrolling compared to X11 which is quite noticeable. Haven't tried screen recording yet but screenshots work perfectly with grim. Only using XWayland on games, and it's still a little bit better.
How is having everyone implement their own Wayland any better than having something like Xorg? My understanding is it will create a lot of issues in the future where for example apps will only work in GNOMEs Wayland implementation. Also the fact that any of the implementations are not properly working after all these years makes me question Wayland's existence.
"How is having everyone implement their own Wayland" It's not a requirement that everyone implement Wayland themselves. One of the problems with Xorg being the only implementation of X11 that anybody uses anymore is that many people can't seem to separate the protocol from the implementation and that causes a lot of confusion. There's nothing stopping different DEs from using and contributing to an existing compositor, many just prefer not to. Xorg is X11's reference implementation and everybody uses it. Weston is Wayland's reference implementation but next to nobody uses it. This is just the story of both of these protocols playing out differently, not an actual difference between what the two protocols require. The reason that some of these compositors implement there own version protocols for certain features is usually for their own use because a standardized way has not be decided on yet. In the past, Mutter had it's own implementation of some protocols but once a standardized protocol was created, it dropped it's own and supported the standard. None of this gives Wayland any less reason to exist. It still fixes and will fix a lot of long running problems that can't be fixed in X11.
The correct way is literally to just add it to the Wayland protocol. The protocol should support the information necessary to register filters that allow certain keypresses to be seen by certain clients.
@@fnamelname9077 Thats actually doable with X11 without even having to modify the protocol or modify clients, thanks to XACE. Unfortunately there is nothing like XACE for wayland.
@@fnamelname9077 I think there's merit in making it a compile time option, you may just not need the functionality but the fact that's it's missing is a design flaw
That was added to x11 (+ selinux) 20 years ago. There is also a gui to then choose per-app rights. Seems like nobody knows about it. It was done by redhat + the US government.
Seems like the issue is the fragmentation, we can't expect software to conform to 3 different wayland implementations or even more to come, like you said, we need standardized APIs or sth along those lines that all wayland implementations can make use of (ideally a single wayland implementation that everyone would jointly work on but I guess that's not gonna happen)
The standardized apis do exist. Some apis are just not standardized yet. I think multiple implementations is actually interesting since no two compositors will do the same thing.
@@BrodieRobertson yes but xorg was somewhat more modular in that nature, meaning you could use any compositor compatible with it, wayland is instead a protocol dictating the implementation of the compositor and some other modules, so that kinda makes it inherently less modular, tho ofc it'd be fixed with widespread adoption of standardized APIs
@@monkev1199 I don't necessarily dislike that as long as it's done right. In fact I absolutely hate dealing with some of xorgs bs and current wayland implementations already do a lot better, I feel like this year will be the year of wayland finally taking over, as some of the final annoyances are bound to get fixed soon
I've been testing Gnome Wayland with Nvidia on and off and I can say that is has improved a lot over the last 2 years. There are still a few issues that drive me up the wall, tho: 2D applications that run through XWayland have a built in stutter. Sometimes they don't draw any screen updates for a second or 2, then sometimes they draw an update, then draw an old frame from a second back then draw a new frame again then an old frame again and then new frames with a slight delay (~100ms). Everything requires additional permission popups. Wanna take a screenshot with Flameshot? Press Printscrn and first you get a Gnome prompt "HEY! This application wants to take a screenshot! Do you want to allow this? Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe [x]" some parts of applications don't work properly (though I can't actually remember what it was right now >_> sorry) What I can say however: 3D Applications are glorious. 3D Games with Nvidia+Gnome+XOrg is just an awful experience. It also has improved significantly over the years, but it remains awful. What annoys me the most is that on Nvidia+Gnome+XOrg VSync goes out of sync. Yes, you read that right. Vsync doesn't sync to the monitor at all. So mutter (the gnome compositor) has an internal Vsync target to which every application syncs to. This Vsync target is unfortunately *entirely* divorced from the actual vsync signal between your monitor+gpu+OS. Sometimes they happen to align and you get nice and smooth 120hz frames, and then 10 seconds later they shift out of phase and you have what feels like 30fps for 20-30 seconds, then it goes back into sync and you have a smooth image again, for ~30 seconds and then it goes out of sync again, ad infinitum. None of that with XWayland. Nvidia+Gnome+(X)Wayland is buttery smoothness all the time, every time. It's incredible how much more fun games are, when your compositor is not actively trying to ruin the experience... So what I do now is when I want to game with peace of mind I switch to a Wayland session and if I want to do anything else I use Xorg Edit: I've been using Intel+Gnome+Wayland on my Laptop for a few years now and I haven't the slightest complaint about things there. Everything just works™ Pretty sure these are Nvidia+Wayland issues Edit2: Dangit, I had a `.` in xorg... now I'm sure youtube won't allow this comment because it thinks I embedded links >_> Edit3: Oh yeah another papercut with Wayland: It doesn't do any Color Management. Want to edit photos or videos? "Get f-ed! " - Wayland mailing list Edit4: Right, I remember now what it was that ultimately made me "ragequit" and that is that Nvidia+Gnome+Wayland for some reason has a much higher idle and busy CPU usage. With Xorg my CPU chills at an easy 45°C watching a video on youtube (with software decoding on the CPU), using ~70W. On Wayland my CPU hits 70°C (on package/highest core. most other cores are reasonably cool, but I currently have my fan controller set to use package temp as basis for fanspeed) at 90-110W, meaning all of my Fans start spinning at obnoxiously loud speeds. Given that my CPU (5950X) uses 160-170W under full load on all cores, I fee like that's a bit excessive.
Interesting report on your experience, seems to align with what I've heard over time. And RUclips not allowing links isn't as much of a problem on channels like Brodie's. He doesn't filter anything (besides maybe plain insults) as far as I know and he also doesn't censor opinions he strongly disagrees with, so it would surprise me if he filtered comments for simply containing links.
For me, using intel-kde-wayland is slower or stuttery but pretty fast if using xorg. (Tested gnome too with Wayland and is slower than KDE with Wayland)
I think after using Sway for a bit, my conclusion is that when things don't work in Wayland they REALLY don't work. But when things work in Wayland without exception they work better than in X11
That last point is my main gripe with Wayland, if the Linux desktop isn't fragmented already (it isn't) it sure will be. "Want to make a program that uses a feature that is not on the main wayland standard? Make sure to support mutter's extension for it, kwin's extension for it, Sway's extension for it, some other third party extension system someone might be using" And if your solution is "just use in xwayland", at this point you're just admitting wayland sucks and I might as well use Xorg anyway
@@BrodieRobertson In that case it feels like we're repeating the mistakes of the past and learned nothing from X11 and xorg. Insanity is repeating something and expecting a different result seems applicable here.
@@BrodieRobertson I think you mean everything besides GTK and QT are practically dead. X11 itself from an API perspective has been extremely stable for the programmer for around 30 years. I can remember the transition from Xfree86 to xorg and I don’t think anything broke.
Nah, we have a layer that handles that, it's called xdg-desktop-portal, and key bindings are being added to it as well. The video made it sound like pipewire is the magic souse that makes the screen sharing possible, but in reality it's just a background thing, the thing responsible for exposing screen sharing to apps is xdg-desktop-portal, and it is being used for bunch of other things. It's basically a layer that abstracts the underlying desktop, so app developers don't have to worry about desktop specific stuff. And all that while preserving proper permissions system. For example desktop-portal can expose a set_walpaper method, so apps can set your wallpaper without knowing on what DE you are on. This also works on X11 so wallpaper apps in theory can drop all of the X11 DE specific code now, no need for different code branches depending on the DE. So X users should get some benefits from that as well
@@BrodieRobertson Pipewire is proof that API > Protocol. It's a universal geometric fact of the universe. Wayland was a bad idea. What everyone wanted, what everyone's *use-cases* required as a solution, was X12. Wayland is the wrong solution. There is no problem that is well-solved by what Wayland is.
It seems like this is mostly a wlroots problem. Wayland running Gnome has been a perfect experience so far for me. Even with nvidia drivers things are getting better and the upcoming Fedora 36 will have even better support I believe.
That's also part of the problem, you shouldn't be forced to use Gnome for a good experience, because Wayland is all these different implementations it can be a very inconsistent experience
wlroots is actually quite abstract when you look it. Most of the actual window management behavior is not inside wlroots but instead something like sway or river.
One thing I love that you didn't mention about Wayland is the pleasure of setting DE/WM things. I've always had issues with the Xorg config files and getting them to work or even knowing where to put them. On Sway -I don't know about the others-, you set screen/monitor/keyboard/mouse stuff right in the compositor config, centralising most of the hardware specific stuff on top of using a much clearer syntax IMO.
@@Vollex_ in Arch+ i3 with no desktop environment, you quickly end up having to write Xorg config files, + add some commands to auto launch and a bunch of other things dispatched across the user *and* system settings. It really makes you see Xorg's caveats.
Over, and over, I get hardcore Linux users to tell me to use Wayland because "it's the future" or "more modern" thing to use. But, Xorg just... works. I'm already a Linux user, I don't need even more shitty hoops to jump through to get things to work!
This. I don't think I'll move across to Wayland until Xorg is literally discontinued. I'm an AwesomeWM user, love how it works, don't want to change to a new WM and they don't seem to be working on a Wayland port.
Xorg does not just work. Mixed DPI and refresh rate are completely impossible on Xorg. We aren't in the 90s anymore. I have two screens, one 4k@30fps and the other 1080p@60fps. On wayland this just works, with one monitor at 200%. This cannot be done on Xorg.
Yeah but look at this mess just to get 2 monitors to behave together. Like yeah great you have multiple monitors going but now you have a non-functioning workflow.. hows that workin for ya?
As you said, Wayland is still young and things are evolving. I would say that this is the main reason why we see implementations against mutter, KWin or wlroots compositors. Once the developers settle on how things should be designed, we will see more concrete contracts, i.e. more in wayland-protocols or in xdg-desktop-portal (global shortcuts are discussed in GH issue #624 ATM). I would hope for all compositors to use one single library (like wlroots for sway or KWin-ft), but I don't see this happening any time soon. I'm personally running 4K@144Hz@200% + 1440p@60Hz@100%. There's no way this could be feasible in X11. KWin + AMD is a dream come true for me 😀
I use a 4k@60hz@200% and 1080@144hz@100% on x11, its doable and its actually similar to how gnome does fractional scaling with gtk on wayland (select non-fractional upscale number and then downscale).
Wayland is now 13 years old, is that really young? i would say the real reason we see implementations against each compositor is because thats how wayland was intentionally designed. The wayland protocol was designed to be minimal and then allow compositors to implement their own protocols on top, why? because wayland was initially made for embedded devices that really only run 1 application at a time, or at least how wayland was used in practice since the very early days (one example is using wayland in cars, often using qt quick). These devices dont need all features, they only need the ones they use. They dont want to implement protocols they dont use in their specific application.
wayland is 13 years old at this point from its first release. It is not young, by any means. unless you compare it with X, but its age in the tech world is not young. You can say that devs did not adopted it soon enough or with a pace they should have, but then it was all about X vs Wayland , so there's that.
It's refreshing to see someone addressing the issue of fragmentation that Wayland is going to cause. There are only three implementations right now, and there are already problems. It's going to be a nightmare when there are different Wayland servers for every desktop environment and different versions with different extensions for every distribution. Fragmentation is already starting to be a problem, and it's only going to get worse as DE's like Plasma and Gnome with plenty of resources leave everyone else in the dust as their Wayland implementations accelerate off into the distance on their own divergent paths.
plsbro you have to try kwinft at some point. that is kde's re implementation all under wlroots. this thing has some neat technical features and is still in development. you can also find some interview or presentation by one of the devs. its a great project
The main reason why I use wayland alot is because sway if my real first tiling window manager. I've used awesome and material-shell in the past, but I had no idea what was going on. Sway is my first tilingwm that I riced to look and feel exactly how I want it too, and it works wonderfully on my thinkpad x240.
yeah i think something like pipewire/jack rack would be an ideal solution. especially if you have an quick way to view/setup what applications can "key log" you, its especially usefull if more than one application have the same short cut keys. maybe there can be a shortcut to swipe between configurations another thing to consider is the user interface to see things like that, people are familiar with the applications permissions on android for example.
5:16 hate to state something obvious to many probably, but I just realized that it's more like security is at a cost of "functionality", not "usability". You could eliminate some "functionality" without removing the actually "usable" elements (virtual machines may be a good example versus running separate physical computers).
The experience of Wayland on GNOME using libmutter is almost entirely seamless except for that global hotkey issue. Stops me from being able to use push-to-talk on Discord which means it stops me from using Wayland daily. Otherwise I would love to run it, it feels much more snappy on GNOME than Xorg does.
That's true in many ways for Wlroots, these Wayland implementations give me a lot of hope but there's just 1 or 2 fundamental design flaws that get in the way
@@Mathias-bz2kr Not sure how Wayland plays with this though. My understanding is that Wayland blocks apps from just looking at your key presses all the time. This is great so Zoom can't just log everything you type while it runs in the background, but not ideal since it also blocks foss keyboard shortcut daemons.
Kmonad works in wayland, x11, console/tty, windows 10, mac. Kmonad inhibits the keys before they get to wayland or x11 it reads your user's keycodes from the kernel, and outputs keycodes or commands via a second user.
@@Cheesewiz247 idk why a permission system couldn't be built into it instead though (requiring root access to change from the default 0 permissions), particularly it would be good as an API that all wayland implementations could make use of
There are some hacks to help with startup time for those single standing compositors, mostly about setting up the dbus environment and starting the xdg-portals as first things
Hmm the only issue I have had with Wayland is some apps not being able to drag and drop, and some video players not working with some of the output settings, other than that it works better than X11.
Drag and drop is definitely still annoying, between x11 and Wayland especially. Drag and drag is actually quite complicated, but it's reasonably simple for applications.
My first-time experience on Sway WM was horrible, I tried using my available keys on my Thinkpad PC and none of them worked, I am running Sway on OpenSUSE and I'm trying to switch desktops so that I can delete this awful desktop, if you have any answers then please reply
Wayland not being universal will make linux adoption even harder for devs. Until the wayland team makes more extensive specifications providing everything xorg provides (for privacy they should rather use a android like permission system instead of not providing the option), wayland should NOT be adopted for beginner distros. Seperate wayland calls and features for each DE/WM are a ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE idea and should be avoided at all costs. We need universability not more seperation. I think wayland could hurt linux more than it helps by requiring devs to make different implementation for each wayland implementation! I will stay on xorg for a long while until they resolve this mess !!!
@@darin7553 Xwayland is great, but clearly a solution for legacy apps, not a replacement for writing wayland apps since it does only work for basic guis , not for screen sharing etc. I love minimalism but mimimalism is for hardcore linux entusiaths who want the maximum performance and privacy. but beginners and mainstream devs want ease of use, features and intercompatibilty, the things wayland has problems with.
The permission system is pretty much the portals but yes this doesn't change the fact there are 3 different xdg-desktop-protocol implementations for gnome kde wlroots. Kde and wlroots is more likely to collaborate than anything gnome will do (kwinFT is now based on wlroots), but even if there will be 2 implementations left, we can't ignore the scale the second one has (gnome). IDK, we need everything else to collapse and unite on a single implementation just like what happened with X (Xorg is the single left implementation). How many years that would take? Probably a lot.
The permission system is pretty much the portals but yes this doesn't change the fact there are 3 different xdg-desktop-protocol implementations for gnome kde wlroots. Kde and wlroots is more likely to collaborate than anything gnome will do (kwinFT is now based on wlroots), but even if there will be 2 implementations left, we can't ignore the scale the second one has (gnome). IDK, we need everything else to collapse and unite on a single implementation just like what happened with X (Xorg is the single left implementation). How many years that would take? Probably a lot.
Part of the problem with this is that the specification and concept of Wayland wasn't finished nearly enough before non-demonstrative implementations were implemented. As it stands right now there really should only be one wayland implementation that's literally nothing but the bare basics of wayland's spec for which only really exists to compare functionality, capability, and usability against xorg. But since we have multiple "commercial" implementations its muddying the water and dirtying expectations for wayland. Doesn't help that the wayland designers are so autistic about security that they won't consider someone using the system in a way that they disagree with much like the gnome and KDE devs did/do. I take massive issue with this outlook because that's not up for them to decide, if we want higher security, you can build that, but leave us the option to make it easier or figure out a manner where we can both have our cake and eat it too. If you don't provide either you are ensuring nobody will want to use your mess of a philosophy disguised as a platform improvement. And in the least of things they should give us something that doesn't break everything when it doesn't need to, most functionality that wayland doesn't support isn't because it can't do it in a reasonable way, it really feels more like snobbery for which it does that.
@@BrodieRobertson iirc a lot of the issue of addressing it has to do with the wayland philosophy as interpreted by those designing the spec, without either convincing them to violate those interpretations or creating an extended spec that everyone will default to over standard wayland, this problem is likely to persist for a long time. Personally I'm skeptical they'll actually pull it off, but I'm not in their head so who knows, it does make me more doomer for wayland though.
@MegaCake1234 Have you ever talked with any of them? You call them autistic and ignorant, but you don't even know who they are, you don't know how they act or treat potential use cases. You also say "it's not for them to decide" actually yes it is, it is for people that take part in the discussions and care for the project and spend their time trying to help, not some random comments on the internet, of people that don't try to help and just complain. You don't have to be super technical to help, you just have to have a will to do so, if you don't have it, at least don't offend people that have it, complain about the end product not about people that made it.
@@poly9306 "Have you ever talked with any of them?" I've seen their responses to the exact issues that people needed to make workarounds for or the ones for which they won't implement at all and multiple times they said they're extremely against it and their responses left no room to being convinced claiming "security" usually without alternative. This has happened enough times that its pretty clear that how their philosophy is being interpreted is the problem. "You call them autistic and ignorant" I didn't call them ignorant though and I don't believe they are. I called them autistic because they are being excessively special over how they interpret their philosophy to the point of uselessness. We're not building software to satisfy our egos but how they approach issues that's what it really appears to be. "but you don't even know who they are you don't know how they act or treat potential use cases." They've made enough public statements that I feel confident saying what I have, if you don't like it you can see what they said on these issues but I'm not going to placate you if you're gonna act like a fanboy who assumes what I've said when I haven't. If you're gonna have a preconceived notion of me over these things I don't care about changing your mind but you don't get to attack me with an appeal to accomplishment and act like that's alright. "You also say "it's not for them to decide" actually yes it is" If you're building software and software specifications with the expressed purpose of deciding how people use the software then that's pretty immoral and dumb. If I build a game, produce it so anyone can play it, and someone mods it for their own enjoyment that doesn't harm anyone else's experience or perhaps even enriches another one's only, if I get mad and tell him to stop because he's using the software wrong, who is really in the right there? If I fork a FOSS window manager like gnome and spend a long period of time modifying it to something I'd like and otherwise keep it under the same license and the original developers get mad, am I really in the wrong? So I don't have a right to do what I wish with my own computer and that which I put on it? Cause that was my entire point there, they put so much effort into snubbing that behavior that it makes it impossible for anyone to have a general system with said behavior, its entirely their fault that we don't have a wayland standard for things like general video capture and global hotkeys at all. They have no excuse for that, it can easily be done in a secure way in some manner and those are essential features for our systems. "it is for people that take part in the discussions and care for the project and spend their time trying to help, not some random comments on the internet, of people that don't try to help and just complain." I've seen the discussions they've had and I've been dissuaded from even considering it. I have no regard for someone who will flame me like a fanboy because he doesn't understand their responses to these issues are a problem. Had they not so quickly shut those discussions down and given actually decent reasoning for what they say then I would've been keen to look kindly on them but since they don't operate rationally I since can only look at them under a negative disposition. Call it complaining all you want, I'm just stating facts and using reason. Don't shoot the messenger. "You don't have to be super technical to help" No but I have nothing to add given their responses. And besides that I could be super technical anyway, I'm a pretty experienced and knowledgeable software engineer so I know how to. "you just have to have a will to do so," Perhaps I would have if not for the wayland designers. "if you don't have it, at least don't offend people that have it" If you're offended by it, that suggests one of two things, either I hit way too close to home and you couldn't take it or you're assuming that it was some kind of attack when it wasn't. Offense over this is not capable with a reasonable people, I have said nothing worthy of offense here. If you want to do stuff with it that's your prerogative but don't force your ideology down my throat, I have a right to be mad for wayland failing to be what they touted it to be. It is not a functional replacement design for xorg. You don't get to tell me what I can and can't do and neither do you have a right to tell me I'm wrong by using fallacious arguments like that. I don't have to talk to them, I don't have to be involved, I merely need to see what they've said and come to my own conclusions about who and what they are. That's what I'm speaking from, I don't need to rationalize it further. "complain about the end product not about people that made it." The people are responsible for the end product, if their philosophy fails to produce a suitable end product, its not the products fault, why should I blame the product for something that's clearly their fault? This logic makes no sense, are products capable to make themselves out of nowhere? If they ignore problems calling it a feature and won't listen to anybody who has a rational issue with that response then I have a right to get mad over that. That's gonna make the end product crap and its because they're acting foolish and thinking foolish things. Just because its a FOSS project does neither mean the contributors and owners aren't responsible for it being bad, that's just a bad argument. I'd go as far as to call it a deflection argument which is fallacious.
2:50 Why do people keep repeating this meme? x11 has a protocol extension literally called "security", and it was added 26 years ago. Then 20 years ago XACE was added which is per-application fine grained security, in contrast to wayland which has no security model at all.
@@BrodieRobertson its not used because nobody really cares because "security" for graphical applications is a meme, but that doesn't mean at all that x11 hasn't addressed the problem. And yes, wayland has no security model. Wayland doesn't actually deal with security, it just ignores it. You can run x11 applications in the exact same way actually. Wayland instead pushes all the security burden on third party solutions, and instead expects a lot of features to be put into one application (the shell). Wayland is designed from the ground up for every shell to be as bloated as gnome. Wlroots fixes this somewhat by implementing the 60 000 lines of code that you would have to implement yourself, but on x11 these 60 000 lines of code are not needed at all.
@@BrodieRobertson As an example, on x11 we have window embedding which allows applications to run separately in different processes but still appear in one window. This makes it secure because if the embedded application has a bug that is abused then it wont affect other processes. This is done with 1 line in x11. To do this in wayland you pretty much need to implement a whole compositor, which is minimum 60 000 + 3000 lines of code. As a result, there isn't a single application that actually does it and just puts multiple applications into one. Now if there is a bug in the embedded application then it has full access to your application as well. I use this embedding in my software for the video player. Video players have a lot of code and parts are even written in assembly for performance reasons. When I run it as a secondary process I can limit which syscalls the process can use so even if the code has a bug and is taken over by malware, the malware cant do anything. The kernel will automatically kill the process if the process tries to open another file than the video file.
@@BrodieRobertson I say this is a developer who has worked in xserver and wlroots and made multiple x11 and wayland applications, so i'm not speaking from ignorance
@@notuxnobux It seems like pipes would allow for achieving the same result while also ensuring that the un-windowed processes could not become malicious keyloggers.
It's not that you CAN'T do these things on Wayland because of the limitation. It's just that they have to be done differently. It's 2022 and apps don't have to rely on obscure mechanism where an application just reads whatever you type just to make its checks all the time just to take action on certain key presses or just grabs from a screen whatever they like. It can be done way better than that. The fact that missing specifications are coming very slowly is another topic. The development model and directions that were chosen are not necessarily the most efficient ones. Going away from monolith is fine, but the fact that there's no common, standard library shared across compositor for basic stuff is such a bummer. Wlroots would be great candidate, but it was a little late after rush to make other implementations.
Wayland ideally should have something like polkit and have it be more standardized if a applications wants key strokes it should prompt the user for a password
@@BrodieRobertson With udev you can allow applications to access /dev/input directly so they can access input devices even in tty, but applications need to read data from /dev/input instead of using wayland and x11 so no, those applications wont work automatically. But at least with wlroots, I believe there is a way to actually globally read keyboard inputs since wlroots doesn't really care about the wayland spec and just adds its own features on top (which makes it actually usable). There is ydotool for example for wlroots which is an alternative to xdotool (note, it only works for wlroots and not other wayland shells).
Using gnome on fedora (with AMD GPU) and I never really had all those problems. I guess this is one of the benefits of having a DE that is trying to be a cohesive platform also
I don't understand this notion of stuff like how global hotkeys are handled is "taking security too far" especially when you proposed a way to add them that doesn't compromise on that security. Btw, there's an xdg-portal for hotkeys that's currently being worked on and OBS Studio already has code implemented into it in preparation of it. "Wayland is really a thing" doesn't make sense to me either as you directly compared it to Xorg, not X11 which is what it's most similar to. Xorg is more comparable to Mutter or Kwin as both are libraries that actually implement the protocol. You just don't see the same kind of issues in X sessions is because Xorg is pretty much the only X11 implementation that anyone uses anymore. Just because their isn't a single compositor that everybody collectively uses, doesn't mean Wayland is any less of a thing.
@@BrodieRobertson because of Steam OS 3, it will be weird to launch an OS that only works on AMD cards on the desktop, they want Wayland going forward, since it gives the opportunity for overlays, FSR, etc
If you use arch you can install hidpi fork of xwayland and wlroots from aur which disables wayland/wlroots scaling and then allows you to use Xft.dpi/GDK_SCALE/qt scale instead which gives you hidpi in x11 applications without blur
@Opal Mizrahi Qt4+Gtk2 was the peak of human achievement. Something like 10+ years after Eclipse introduced dock+snap+resize ANYWHERE sub-windows, a handful of applications are finally getting 80% of this functionality. Qt still can't do it well. Kdevelop is light-years behind Eclipse, and people only tolerate garbage like VScode and Intellij because they lack so many features that they don't really have poor-quality implementations. During the Gtk2 era, you had powerful universal controls (X11), and powerful cross-platform support. You can literally just tell Gtk2 to use QtCurve and have a single theme for all apps. One Icon+Mouse+Color+Widget theme for ALL apps. Desktop PC has never gotten back to being that usable.
@@fnamelname9077 Blame GNOME for how much GTK has fallen since 2. KDE has wanted to make GTK fit in in Plasma, and always to GNOME pushback. They fell off hard when they moved to CSS in that standpoint.
@@ThatLinuxDude CSS. Oh my god lol. EVERYTHING that's happening in web right now is "don't use CSS, pretend it doesn't exist by using SAS". The WEB even thinks CSS is a terrible idea. And here Gnome is, trying to make the desktop CSS. "Don't be a programmer, don't have access to the widget instance, that's illegal! Just use super modern cool technology css! It's 25 years ago and everyone still thinks it's not literally the worst idea in all of time and space!"
At the point where wayland expects you to force ALL your applications to run through xwayland, is where you would probably go "I should just use XOrg" lmao
Been using GNOME wayland for a bit now, and it has its pain points (for me): electron-based apps (they need some configuration to make them work and with discord I need to also pass in --disable-gpu to make it work, can't share the screen there either) and input mapping. I have a vertical mouse that has fucked mapping on Linux, on X11 I just used xinput (I think?) to reassign everything but on Wayland it's pain. There is input-mapper, and it worked for me eventually, but my god it took a lot of time for me to get it working (I have to use beta version, stable one doesn't work at all). Dk if it was bc I use Garuda, but wine/proton work fine for me, didn't have to change any configs. Other than that, works fine. Much faster (animations, input response, no screen tearing etc) than X11, especially with the amount of extensions I have.
I really don't like Wayland. I mean, maybe it's true that Xorg was getting a bit long in the tooth. But Wayland was a terrible solution. I feel like all they did was dump the burden of supporting GPU hardware onto the kernel, and then dump the burden of maintaining a compositor onto those developing desktop environments. If Wayland were just a lightweight answer to Xorg that dumped a lot of legacy components, that would be one thing. But that's not what they did. Wayland is merely an archtecture and a protocol library that provides absolutely nothing. The reason why GNOME works well on Wayland is because GNOME has written the compositor and essentially the entire backend of what is running on "Wayland." KDE has its own compositor. And then... if you aren't KDE or GNOME, there's not a maintained Xorg compositor to fall back on. Just a reference implementation that you are expected to maintain yourself. It screws over alternative OSes that don't have mature kernel driver support and may have relied on X for display drivers, and also makes the problem of Linux being standardized on GNOME and punishing you for choosing anything else even worse than it already was. So they've created a situation where if you want a good experience with Wayland, you have to use Linux, you have to use GNOME, and you have to use SystemD. If you don't fall into all three of those categories, Wayland is just a giant middle finger saying "Screw you, use GNOME on Linux and be happy with your efficient centralized, interdependent mess of an OS where all the choices are made for you, and choosing anything else is a slow painful fight with the system you will eventually lose." They took something that well-established that worked for a lot of different environments and was standardized, threw it in the trash, and decided to just create a pseudo-standard that simply rewards the big players... Linux and GNOME. Wayland is basically just a nice-sounding word for GNOME talking directly to the kernel display drivers and SystemD without Xorg there at all. The outcome would be no different if that were the case, and in fact it wouldn't have been much more work for the GNOME team if that were indeed the case.
Offtop, but you need to see this. There's some big news from Asahi Just watch the latest stream. It's called "Bringing up Asahi Linux on the M1 Ultra". (if you get bored or don't have half an hour, you can skip to 20 minutes in and watch from there)
it seems like maybe my 2nd comment here was deleted? but was merely just trying to be helpful and suggest waycrate/swhkd for key chords, for invoking scratchpads. or whatever overloading of other global keyboard shortcuts that you might wish to do but while im here, for obs why not just use v5 and then write a script to curl the obs webserver plugin? then can assign some global hotkeys to invoke your script instead of the obs cli. or is it that the obs cli is just too complicated to be replacing so easily? in which case i suppose just have to wait a bit longer then for obs-cli to get updated for v5
RUclips likes to delete random stuff, I haven't looked at the webserver API bit it can't be that complicated my concern is that most other people won't go through that effort
you are probably using wayland wrong for gaming you should be using gamescope ${options} ${game} or add gamescope ${options} to your steam launch options this starts an entire new desktop for only your game using xwayland and enables asynchronous page flips
Wayland isn't young. It was released 13 years ago. Windows went from vista to 11. Can't believe Linux is taking so long to do something macos and windows can do such a long time ago.
Windows doing what? On windows aplications have full access to everything just like x11. Windows hasn't really changed in the core ui aspect in many decades.
interesting, I use Wayland and don't have that mouse problem. Some X11 games just straight up crash, forcing me to use the Proton versions. Those work fine with mouse tho.
@@BrodieRobertson KDE Plasma (kwin) wayland on Arch Linux under an amdGPU. games that crash native are smaller indie games like CrossCode. Somehow TF2 works perfectly. I feel like some of the newer ones or upkept either have wayland support or somehow automatically run Xwayland. I'm assuming the ones that crash try to get run as wayland. Interestingly, it causes the controller driver to break in the same games that crash.
X has XACE which is even better (XAuthority is just implemented on top of XACE now). 20 years ago XACE was added to work with selinux and if you use selinux you get a gui to select permissions per-app. This was added by redhat and the US government for their security requirements.
I pretty much disagree with you: Most users could use a wlroots wayland compositor everyday. What I think you mean is power users. There some further problems about getting towards desktop environments though, because most independent DEs so far are just gnome offshoots and dependent on mutter.
No I mean general users, a power user is the sort of person who wil work around these problems, look for software that works with there compositor others won't
@@BrodieRobertson if it’s normal users, then it’s because there is not a complete DE, as I implied. But that’s sort of an expected problem; you wouldn’t go to a “normal” user and tell them to use a WM, right? Of course there are distros shipping DEs around sway or other compositors that make that easy enough. The only actual DE that I’d know with some mileage, is phosh which is again very specific.
I also experience waylands oversecurity for example in eww elkowar does'nt want to implement a taskabr module s theres millions of ways to get open apps on wayland depending on the implementation
Hi Brodie, can you please make a video about xonsh - python powered shell. I like the way you go over things and express your opinion about stuff. I would really appreciate it if you'd make it a reality! Thanks in advance!
As someone with two monitors of differing resolutions and refresh rates, I'd rather deal with Wayland's rough edges. Plus I love pipewire. xorg's equivalent to window/screen capture severely hurts performance in my experience, if it even works. The only thing I don't like about Sway specifically is no window capture on OBS. That functionality isn't even on xdg-desktop-portal-wlr-git yet. It's not a big deal on Sway because I can just use StreamFX's source mirror to copy a screen capture for both windows I use with their own cropping filters since I use a consistent window layout.
Its a standalone project unrelated to any wayland shell implementation which runs the x11 server. Gnome (if i recall correctly) also doesn't even start the x11 server unless an x11 application is running and it also shuts it down when you close the last x11 application. Xwayland is optional, and all wayland shells dont even support it.
I don't like that wayland composites over games. I really want to give it a chance, but the effect it has on the "smoothness" of the game is vital. I play anything to competitive to casual games, and it making my 165 fps game look like 60 fps but somehow 165 at the same time is just too big of a downgrade to ignore. The weird frametimes and effects make me motion sick. I asked my partner to tell the difference between the two, (i have 2 pcs) and they said one looked like it was capped at a low fps. I told them it was wayland and they responded with, "At this point, as a gamer, there's no viable reason to use wayland until it's changed.
A window does know if it has focus, you get enter events for the keyboard and pointer. You can only know if one of your application's windows are focused though.
@@monkev1199 The window knows, but wayland doesn’t (or if it does, it refuses to tell you). I just finished writing a program that automatically changes input device profiles based on the active window. This is essential functionality if Linux ever hopes to be a legitimate gaming replacement to Windows, and is impossible to accomplish within the base wayland specification
From what I've seen Gnome on Wayland works quite great and the rest is "meh"... And it makes sense. It turns out that when you get into the meat, implementing an agnostic window manager over the display server is just too complex, because Wayland requires more from it than Xorg (not just the compositor, also the keyboard management, etc.). At this point, it feels overwhelming and that tiling WMs has to become quasi full-blown DEs (not quite), and that defeats the purpose of running something like xmonad or dwm. Regarding APIs or implementation of Wayland protocols, it is difficult to say. Most of what is wanted is basically wlroots itself. The rest, which is a lot, must be implemented by the DE/WM because that would go against the flexibility of Wayland (according to some issues I read on Wayland's gitlab), which allows for more options than a Xorg client. There are nice frameworks on different languages which look very promising (e.g, smithay), though.
@@darin7553 That's the general trend I think. It makes me want to use Fedora Gnome (also because I like how Fedora is doing) instead of my tiling WM in arch, but I am so comfortable with it than now changing to a floating one would be very frustrating. I hope we all can learn from Gnome's Wayland implementation.
@@BrodieRobertson everything has pros and cons my friend. Sometimes I have to switch to Xorg before Zoom meeting because Zoom dev didn't implement pipewire any better
just cut the end of use xorg.. there are so little people streaming Lon Linux honestly but so many concerned about security that this is the right move imo
This security "issue" was fixed 20 years ago with XACE (+ selinux), but nobody except the US government ended up using it, why? x11 is 37 years old and global hotkeys has never been abused by malware in all of those years, so in practice nobody is actually concerned with those issues and they are not real issues. People prefer common sense + ease of use. Wayland is trying to fix a problem nobody actually had when it comes to security.
@@notuxnobux According to the documentation for "XACE_RECEIVE_ACCESS," "This hook allows security extensions to prevent a client from receiving X events that have been delivered to a given window." So, XACE does _not_ adhere to SELinux's "model of least-privilege" in which - according to its CentOS documentation - "everything is denied and then a series of exceptions policies are written that give each element of the system (a service, program or user) only the access required to function." Meanwhile, we see that Wayland does _partially_ do so.
so wayland is this awesome thing that doesn't even exist yet? ok so like ... let me know when there is at least an SDK or something so that the software targeting Wayland is consistent.
Expecting software consistency on Wayland is like expecting LEGO to sell toys that are already assembled. It totally make sense to sell already assembled toys. But that's not the point of LEGO. So, those who don't want to assemble their toys should buy something else. It makes sense to have software consistency, but that's not the point of Wayland. So, those who want software consistency should use something else.
In my opinion Wayland just sucks. One example: there is a little application called sct which control screen color temperature. Does something like that exists on Wayland? NO. Wayland just doesnt have all the little useful programs that X does. In fact, Wayland is just monolithic and goes against unix philosophy.
Sounds like you haven't done any research (or if you did, sorry, you're looking to wrong places) because, for wlroots there are 3 different tools for that: wlsunset, wl-gammactl, gammastep; use what you want. For gnome and kde, they have it built-in. If you use simple WMs and want simple external tools, you want to use the wlroots ecosystem not kde nor gnome. You can checkout sway wiki for "Useful-add-ons-for-sway" page to see a dozen of small useful tools. And it's the exact opposite of what you've said, the issue comes from that Wayland not being monolithic, by any means. İt's so freaking modular that it misses pieces. That's why you have 3 different implementations now. Xorg is monolithic and was even more monolithic before x11. "X was it's own OS" says old xorg developer while creating Wayland. Maybe watch the "The real story behind Wayland and X" from linux conf 2013
@@Beryesa. I think you're right. Maybe the hatred I feel for Wayland is irrational and undeserved. But it seems to me that every time I try it, so many things just break that I just give up after a few days. To me, as a user, X is just perfect the way it is and Wayland just introduces so many small, but unwanted and annoying problems that I cannot see why it's being pushed so hard by the distros.
@@marciomaiajr It's pushed hard so those annoyances can get attention and fixed. Before, much of the issues was external, because lack of adoption, they're somewhat fixed now except some non-up-to-date proprietary apps (e.g. discord, zoom...). The issues left is more about specifications that could not be agreed upon together by everyone, yet. Which needs time & collaboration from devs. Which is not just a dream, a great collaboration happened for standardizing screensharing via xdg-desktop-portal & pipewire for example.
@@vladlu6362 You use X server and put a window manager on it, put a compositor on it and say it's modular and less code. But actually, what you wrote/added as wm is just *a client* just like any other window, except it's spamming X in every fractions of a second to grab everything and the compositor just post-proccesses the images, as yet another client. Xorg doesn't know the difference between your wm and a regular app window. It just gives what's requested by clients, it is still a giant by itself. Of course a client will be much lighter than the server. (That's also the case with wayland clients except they can't do whatever they want without permission.) You can't compare a wayland compositor with an X wm, you should compare the wc to "X server *+* the client managing the windows". You will only find out how giant the Xorg sloc by itself is (without even including the wm client's code). The thousand line wc is only a fraction compared to X. Wayland merges window management and compositing for sure, why do the work twice? How doing it once but properly, is worse than having to go over multiple times? Keys were handles poorly by xorg itself till they got separated to proper libraries, Wayland mainly uses the libinput library but everyone using the same library doesn't mean wayland itself is handling the input. Wayland compositor just controls where the input (from libinput) flows (to which client requesting it). Xorg doesn't do that, everyone randomly grabs the keys. *When I say Wayland is modular* , it's the protocols that makes the wayland specification, and a compositor can implement (or not) the protocols for their needs. That way, wayland can dynamically change (as it's just a spec and multiple protocols) and move on to future technologies for upcoming decades when required. Take a look at how a wayland compositor handles rendering backend, frontent and stuff... and compare it to x server. Wayland makes it much possible to modularate those, just take a look at wlroots code for real example. Gamescope for instance uses the wlr frontent but has it's own Vulkan backend, wayfire implements it's own renderer instead of the wlr provided one and kwinFT switched to wlroots base part by part, as it can, as there are many separate parts. How much more modular do you want?
The problem is not even that the wayland is a burger. The REAL problem is that people are yet to agree on what the "burger" is, since there are multiple significant specification discussions going on at this very moment like the mentioned shortcut problem, or the window focusing API (for a window to require itself to come on top), or the 10k different IME-required api standards with each compositor and IME provider supporting some of the versions, while not supporting the others.
The only way to actually use this mess is to sit on gnome/kde that listen to users or be a developer of wlroots. Unless you are a developer any issue with wlroots implementation can basically go unimplemented/unmerged for years. The development is driven AND done 100% by the people that are using it, so if those guys do not feel the need to implement whatever is that you desperately want/need, you are pretty much left on your own.
I'm going to pin this so people who didn't watch the entire video get confused about burgers
I really hope we will finally get some decent hotkey framework. GTK2 had something like that, and so you could e.g. enable a Vim mode in all your supported application
It would just be great to have all the hotkey logic be handled uniformly and transparently, outside of the applications themselves
Shortcut problem is WIP that's true, xdg-desktop-portal based solution is coming along nicely, and wlroots guys will most likely do something different and then wrap it in desktop portal like they usually do. (mostly to fight with dbus based solutions)
But window focusing API? It's standardized in wayland protocols already. No major discussion on that.
IME is also standardized, it has some known problems tho, it's a hard problem space and implementors are not focusing on it that much.
The analogy that parties have to agree on what burger is, is good, and most likely true, but your examples don't align with reality in my opinion.
@@poly9306 Can you provide link for the specific MRs? I'm a bit lost ;)
The last thing we need is more fragmentation and have applications trying to support multiple DEs.
My experience with wayland has been almost completely positive. Games now have less input lag, everything is generally more responsive, and I have had zero problems related to wayland. Obviously this is not everyone's experience, but I just want to put that out there. I've only used KDE and GNOME on AMD and intel graphics, so sway and NVIDEA may have a rougher time.
This has basically been my experience with Sway on Nvidia, plus some nasty browser bugs
Same experience here with Intel and Sway. Basically almost zero tearing, is a bit more responsive than Xorg. I don't use compositors on X11 since they introduce more lag in games and performance flops.
In Firefox I don't even notice tearing while scrolling compared to X11 which is quite noticeable.
Haven't tried screen recording yet but screenshots work perfectly with grim.
Only using XWayland on games, and it's still a little bit better.
@@moister3727 For those still using X11, it is a good idea to disable the compositor for fullscreen applications.
How is having everyone implement their own Wayland any better than having something like Xorg? My understanding is it will create a lot of issues in the future where for example apps will only work in GNOMEs Wayland implementation. Also the fact that any of the implementations are not properly working after all these years makes me question Wayland's existence.
"How is having everyone implement their own Wayland"
It's not a requirement that everyone implement Wayland themselves. One of the problems with Xorg being the only implementation of X11 that anybody uses anymore is that many people can't seem to separate the protocol from the implementation and that causes a lot of confusion.
There's nothing stopping different DEs from using and contributing to an existing compositor, many just prefer not to. Xorg is X11's reference implementation and everybody uses it. Weston is Wayland's reference implementation but next to nobody uses it. This is just the story of both of these protocols playing out differently, not an actual difference between what the two protocols require.
The reason that some of these compositors implement there own version protocols for certain features is usually for their own use because a standardized way has not be decided on yet. In the past, Mutter had it's own implementation of some protocols but once a standardized protocol was created, it dropped it's own and supported the standard.
None of this gives Wayland any less reason to exist. It still fixes and will fix a lot of long running problems that can't be fixed in X11.
@@myownfriend23 ok that's a really nice explanation that helped me to understand the topic better. Thank you
I think the correct way to implement things like this would be to restrict API on per-app basis, kinda like Android does that with other rights.
The correct way is literally to just add it to the Wayland protocol.
The protocol should support the information necessary to register filters that allow certain keypresses to be seen by certain clients.
@@fnamelname9077 Thats actually doable with X11 without even having to modify the protocol or modify clients, thanks to XACE. Unfortunately there is nothing like XACE for wayland.
@@fnamelname9077 I think there's merit in making it a compile time option, you may just not need the functionality but the fact that's it's missing is a design flaw
That was added to x11 (+ selinux) 20 years ago. There is also a gui to then choose per-app rights. Seems like nobody knows about it. It was done by redhat + the US government.
The only concern with per app restrictions is any mistakes that allow you to cross boundaries
Seems like the issue is the fragmentation, we can't expect software to conform to 3 different wayland implementations or even more to come, like you said, we need standardized APIs or sth along those lines that all wayland implementations can make use of (ideally a single wayland implementation that everyone would jointly work on but I guess that's not gonna happen)
Well it might happen because X11 had the same issue and then everything else died and we were left with Xorg it just took 20 years
The standardized apis do exist. Some apis are just not standardized yet.
I think multiple implementations is actually interesting since no two compositors will do the same thing.
@@BrodieRobertson yes but xorg was somewhat more modular in that nature, meaning you could use any compositor compatible with it, wayland is instead a protocol dictating the implementation of the compositor and some other modules, so that kinda makes it inherently less modular, tho ofc it'd be fixed with widespread adoption of standardized APIs
@@monkev1199 I don't necessarily dislike that as long as it's done right. In fact I absolutely hate dealing with some of xorgs bs and current wayland implementations already do a lot better, I feel like this year will be the year of wayland finally taking over, as some of the final annoyances are bound to get fixed soon
I've been testing Gnome Wayland with Nvidia on and off and I can say that is has improved a lot over the last 2 years.
There are still a few issues that drive me up the wall, tho: 2D applications that run through XWayland have a built in stutter. Sometimes they don't draw any screen updates for a second or 2, then sometimes they draw an update, then draw an old frame from a second back then draw a new frame again then an old frame again and then new frames with a slight delay (~100ms).
Everything requires additional permission popups. Wanna take a screenshot with Flameshot? Press Printscrn and first you get a Gnome prompt "HEY! This application wants to take a screenshot! Do you want to allow this? Yes [ ] No [ ] Maybe [x]"
some parts of applications don't work properly (though I can't actually remember what it was right now >_> sorry)
What I can say however: 3D Applications are glorious. 3D Games with Nvidia+Gnome+XOrg is just an awful experience. It also has improved significantly over the years, but it remains awful. What annoys me the most is that on Nvidia+Gnome+XOrg VSync goes out of sync. Yes, you read that right. Vsync doesn't sync to the monitor at all. So mutter (the gnome compositor) has an internal Vsync target to which every application syncs to. This Vsync target is unfortunately *entirely* divorced from the actual vsync signal between your monitor+gpu+OS. Sometimes they happen to align and you get nice and smooth 120hz frames, and then 10 seconds later they shift out of phase and you have what feels like 30fps for 20-30 seconds, then it goes back into sync and you have a smooth image again, for ~30 seconds and then it goes out of sync again, ad infinitum.
None of that with XWayland. Nvidia+Gnome+(X)Wayland is buttery smoothness all the time, every time. It's incredible how much more fun games are, when your compositor is not actively trying to ruin the experience...
So what I do now is when I want to game with peace of mind I switch to a Wayland session and if I want to do anything else I use Xorg
Edit: I've been using Intel+Gnome+Wayland on my Laptop for a few years now and I haven't the slightest complaint about things there. Everything just works™
Pretty sure these are Nvidia+Wayland issues
Edit2: Dangit, I had a `.` in xorg... now I'm sure youtube won't allow this comment because it thinks I embedded links >_>
Edit3: Oh yeah another papercut with Wayland: It doesn't do any Color Management. Want to edit photos or videos? "Get f-ed! " - Wayland mailing list
Edit4: Right, I remember now what it was that ultimately made me "ragequit" and that is that Nvidia+Gnome+Wayland for some reason has a much higher idle and busy CPU usage. With Xorg my CPU chills at an easy 45°C watching a video on youtube (with software decoding on the CPU), using ~70W. On Wayland my CPU hits 70°C (on package/highest core. most other cores are reasonably cool, but I currently have my fan controller set to use package temp as basis for fanspeed) at 90-110W, meaning all of my Fans start spinning at obnoxiously loud speeds. Given that my CPU (5950X) uses 160-170W under full load on all cores, I fee like that's a bit excessive.
Interesting report on your experience, seems to align with what I've heard over time. And RUclips not allowing links isn't as much of a problem on channels like Brodie's. He doesn't filter anything (besides maybe plain insults) as far as I know and he also doesn't censor opinions he strongly disagrees with, so it would surprise me if he filtered comments for simply containing links.
@@Reichstaubenminister yt auto filters links that point outside of yt. if you see an external link in a comment it''s usually manually approved
@@insu_na Sort the comments by newest, you will find the link I posted.
For me, using intel-kde-wayland is slower or stuttery but pretty fast if using xorg. (Tested gnome too with Wayland and is slower than KDE with Wayland)
On sway it works perfectly so the issue isn't my hardware
I think after using Sway for a bit, my conclusion is that when things don't work in Wayland they REALLY don't work. But when things work in Wayland without exception they work better than in X11
That last point is my main gripe with Wayland, if the Linux desktop isn't fragmented already (it isn't) it sure will be.
"Want to make a program that uses a feature that is not on the main wayland standard? Make sure to support mutter's extension for it, kwin's extension for it, Sway's extension for it, some other third party extension system someone might be using"
And if your solution is "just use in xwayland", at this point you're just admitting wayland sucks and I might as well use Xorg anyway
To be fair X11 used to be like this as well, it's just that everything besides Xorg is dead
@@BrodieRobertson In that case it feels like we're repeating the mistakes of the past and learned nothing from X11 and xorg. Insanity is repeating something and expecting a different result seems applicable here.
@@BrodieRobertson I think you mean everything besides GTK and QT are practically dead. X11 itself from an API perspective has been extremely stable for the programmer for around 30 years.
I can remember the transition from Xfree86 to xorg and I don’t think anything broke.
@@Knirin nothing broke because xorg is xfree86, it's a direct fork
I've been saying pipewire should handle key binds as well, it's already the transport layer for everything else. It would make a great intents engine
I don't know if cramming more stuff into pipewire is the correct choice, it does already have adoption though
Nah, we have a layer that handles that, it's called xdg-desktop-portal, and key bindings are being added to it as well. The video made it sound like pipewire is the magic souse that makes the screen sharing possible, but in reality it's just a background thing, the thing responsible for exposing screen sharing to apps is xdg-desktop-portal, and it is being used for bunch of other things. It's basically a layer that abstracts the underlying desktop, so app developers don't have to worry about desktop specific stuff. And all that while preserving proper permissions system. For example desktop-portal can expose a set_walpaper method, so apps can set your wallpaper without knowing on what DE you are on. This also works on X11 so wallpaper apps in theory can drop all of the X11 DE specific code now, no need for different code branches depending on the DE. So X users should get some benefits from that as well
That's fair but Pipewire is fundamental to this pipeline
@@BrodieRobertson Pipewire is proof that API > Protocol. It's a universal geometric fact of the universe.
Wayland was a bad idea. What everyone wanted, what everyone's *use-cases* required as a solution, was X12. Wayland is the wrong solution. There is no problem that is well-solved by what Wayland is.
@@fnamelname9077 I have long thought that things would be better if they kept Wayland as just a internal replacement of the X11 render engine.
It seems like this is mostly a wlroots problem. Wayland running Gnome has been a perfect experience so far for me. Even with nvidia drivers things are getting better and the upcoming Fedora 36 will have even better support I believe.
That's also part of the problem, you shouldn't be forced to use Gnome for a good experience, because Wayland is all these different implementations it can be a very inconsistent experience
wlroots is actually quite abstract when you look it.
Most of the actual window management behavior is not inside wlroots but instead something like sway or river.
the fact it has a config file per compositor instead of a standard is why i stay with xorg
One thing I love that you didn't mention about Wayland is the pleasure of setting DE/WM things.
I've always had issues with the Xorg config files and getting them to work or even knowing where to put them.
On Sway -I don't know about the others-, you set screen/monitor/keyboard/mouse stuff right in the compositor config, centralising most of the hardware specific stuff on top of using a much clearer syntax IMO.
what exactly did you need to change in the xorg config file? and you should just use xrandr to change display resolution and stuff
That's absolutely true, I wasn't sure whether that should be in the wlroots or sway video
@@Vollex_ in Arch+ i3 with no desktop environment, you quickly end up having to write Xorg config files, + add some commands to auto launch and a bunch of other things dispatched across the user *and* system settings.
It really makes you see Xorg's caveats.
@@SirWrexes I've personally never had to touch an xorg config file but I might just be lucky tho.
Over, and over, I get hardcore Linux users to tell me to use Wayland because "it's the future" or "more modern" thing to use.
But, Xorg just... works. I'm already a Linux user, I don't need even more shitty hoops to jump through to get things to work!
This. I don't think I'll move across to Wayland until Xorg is literally discontinued. I'm an AwesomeWM user, love how it works, don't want to change to a new WM and they don't seem to be working on a Wayland port.
Xorg does not just work. Mixed DPI and refresh rate are completely impossible on Xorg. We aren't in the 90s anymore. I have two screens, one 4k@30fps and the other 1080p@60fps. On wayland this just works, with one monitor at 200%. This cannot be done on Xorg.
Yeah but look at this mess just to get 2 monitors to behave together. Like yeah great you have multiple monitors going but now you have a non-functioning workflow.. hows that workin for ya?
@@samsh0-q3a What mess? Everything works just fine on KDE and Gnome.
My only big issue with Xorg is the nasty screen tearing. Wayland almos totally fixes that and I haven't noticed it while using it
As you said, Wayland is still young and things are evolving. I would say that this is the main reason why we see implementations against mutter, KWin or wlroots compositors. Once the developers settle on how things should be designed, we will see more concrete contracts, i.e. more in wayland-protocols or in xdg-desktop-portal (global shortcuts are discussed in GH issue #624 ATM). I would hope for all compositors to use one single library (like wlroots for sway or KWin-ft), but I don't see this happening any time soon.
I'm personally running 4K@144Hz@200% + 1440p@60Hz@100%. There's no way this could be feasible in X11. KWin + AMD is a dream come true for me 😀
I use a 4k@60hz@200% and 1080@144hz@100% on x11, its doable and its actually similar to how gnome does fractional scaling with gtk on wayland (select non-fractional upscale number and then downscale).
Wayland is now 13 years old, is that really young? i would say the real reason we see implementations against each compositor is because thats how wayland was intentionally designed. The wayland protocol was designed to be minimal and then allow compositors to implement their own protocols on top, why? because wayland was initially made for embedded devices that really only run 1 application at a time, or at least how wayland was used in practice since the very early days (one example is using wayland in cars, often using qt quick). These devices dont need all features, they only need the ones they use. They dont want to implement protocols they dont use in their specific application.
@@notuxnobux was just about to comment about the age. the minimalism have an awful offloading effect for all non big de as well.
wayland is 13 years old at this point from its first release. It is not young, by any means.
unless you compare it with X, but its age in the tech world is not young.
You can say that devs did not adopted it soon enough or with a pace they should have, but then it was all about X vs Wayland , so there's that.
Yes, it's relatively young :) I just (unintentionally) omitted this part when quoting Brodie.
It's refreshing to see someone addressing the issue of fragmentation that Wayland is going to cause. There are only three implementations right now, and there are already problems. It's going to be a nightmare when there are different Wayland servers for every desktop environment and different versions with different extensions for every distribution. Fragmentation is already starting to be a problem, and it's only going to get worse as DE's like Plasma and Gnome with plenty of resources leave everyone else in the dust as their Wayland implementations accelerate off into the distance on their own divergent paths.
I think wayland is way better for complex DEs such as KDE and GNOME as they're the only DEs that supports it.
There's also LWQt, which is a Wayland DE based on LXQt.
plsbro you have to try kwinft at some point. that is kde's re implementation all under wlroots. this thing has some neat technical features and is still in development. you can also find some interview or presentation by one of the devs. its a great project
The main reason why I use wayland alot is because sway if my real first tiling window manager. I've used awesome and material-shell in the past, but I had no idea what was going on. Sway is my first tilingwm that I riced to look and feel exactly how I want it too, and it works wonderfully on my thinkpad x240.
yeah i think something like pipewire/jack rack would be an ideal solution.
especially if you have an quick way to view/setup what applications can "key log" you, its especially usefull if more than one application have the same short cut keys.
maybe there can be a shortcut to swipe between configurations
another thing to consider is the user interface to see things like that, people are familiar with the applications permissions on android for example.
5:16 hate to state something obvious to many probably, but I just realized that it's more like security is at a cost of "functionality", not "usability". You could eliminate some "functionality" without removing the actually "usable" elements (virtual machines may be a good example versus running separate physical computers).
The experience of Wayland on GNOME using libmutter is almost entirely seamless except for that global hotkey issue. Stops me from being able to use push-to-talk on Discord which means it stops me from using Wayland daily. Otherwise I would love to run it, it feels much more snappy on GNOME than Xorg does.
That's true in many ways for Wlroots, these Wayland implementations give me a lot of hope but there's just 1 or 2 fundamental design flaws that get in the way
Tomorrow: Apology, I never used X11, it was all backwards compatibility on X-Wayland.
hotkeys is the only problem that wayland has rn for me. I hope they one day find a way to make it work while keeping it secure.
Launching programs with keyboard shortcuts ? Kmonad can do that
@@Mathias-bz2kr Not sure how Wayland plays with this though. My understanding is that Wayland blocks apps from just looking at your key presses all the time. This is great so Zoom can't just log everything you type while it runs in the background, but not ideal since it also blocks foss keyboard shortcut daemons.
Kmonad works in wayland, x11, console/tty, windows 10, mac.
Kmonad inhibits the keys before they get to wayland or x11
it reads your user's keycodes from the kernel, and outputs keycodes or commands via a second user.
@Watcher I agree! Wayland is slow to add these features though. That's definitely the route to follow when they get around to it.
@@Cheesewiz247 idk why a permission system couldn't be built into it instead though (requiring root access to change from the default 0 permissions), particularly it would be good as an API that all wayland implementations could make use of
There are some hacks to help with startup time for those single standing compositors, mostly about setting up the dbus environment and starting the xdg-portals as first things
Hmm the only issue I have had with Wayland is some apps not being able to drag and drop, and some video players not working with some of the output settings, other than that it works better than X11.
Drag and drop is definitely still annoying, between x11 and Wayland especially.
Drag and drag is actually quite complicated, but it's reasonably simple for applications.
My first-time experience on Sway WM was horrible, I tried using my available keys on my Thinkpad PC and none of them worked, I am running Sway on OpenSUSE and I'm trying to switch desktops so that I can delete this awful desktop, if you have any answers then please reply
Wayland not being universal will make linux adoption even harder for devs.
Until the wayland team makes more extensive specifications providing everything xorg provides (for privacy they should rather use a android like permission system instead of not providing the option), wayland should NOT be adopted for beginner distros.
Seperate wayland calls and features for each DE/WM are a ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE idea and should be avoided at all costs. We need universability not more seperation.
I think wayland could hurt linux more than it helps by requiring devs to make different implementation for each wayland implementation!
I will stay on xorg for a long while until they resolve this mess !!!
You can easily run x11 apps on wayland
@@darin7553 Xwayland is great, but clearly a solution for legacy apps, not a replacement for writing wayland apps since it does only work for basic guis , not for screen sharing etc.
I love minimalism but mimimalism is for hardcore linux entusiaths who want the maximum performance and privacy.
but beginners and mainstream devs want ease of use, features and intercompatibilty, the things wayland has problems with.
The permission system is pretty much the portals but yes this doesn't change the fact there are 3 different xdg-desktop-protocol implementations for gnome kde wlroots.
Kde and wlroots is more likely to collaborate than anything gnome will do (kwinFT is now based on wlroots), but even if there will be 2 implementations left, we can't ignore the scale the second one has (gnome).
IDK, we need everything else to collapse and unite on a single implementation just like what happened with X (Xorg is the single left implementation). How many years that would take? Probably a lot.
The permission system is pretty much the portals but yes this doesn't change the fact there are 3 different xdg-desktop-protocol implementations for gnome kde wlroots.
Kde and wlroots is more likely to collaborate than anything gnome will do (kwinFT is now based on wlroots), but even if there will be 2 implementations left, we can't ignore the scale the second one has (gnome).
IDK, we need everything else to collapse and unite on a single implementation just like what happened with X (Xorg is the single left implementation). How many years that would take? Probably a lot.
Btw your pfp is sway lol
Part of the problem with this is that the specification and concept of Wayland wasn't finished nearly enough before non-demonstrative implementations were implemented. As it stands right now there really should only be one wayland implementation that's literally nothing but the bare basics of wayland's spec for which only really exists to compare functionality, capability, and usability against xorg. But since we have multiple "commercial" implementations its muddying the water and dirtying expectations for wayland. Doesn't help that the wayland designers are so autistic about security that they won't consider someone using the system in a way that they disagree with much like the gnome and KDE devs did/do. I take massive issue with this outlook because that's not up for them to decide, if we want higher security, you can build that, but leave us the option to make it easier or figure out a manner where we can both have our cake and eat it too. If you don't provide either you are ensuring nobody will want to use your mess of a philosophy disguised as a platform improvement. And in the least of things they should give us something that doesn't break everything when it doesn't need to, most functionality that wayland doesn't support isn't because it can't do it in a reasonable way, it really feels more like snobbery for which it does that.
I'm not particuarly concerned with why it's bad just the fact that it is and what can be done going forward to address it,
@@BrodieRobertson iirc a lot of the issue of addressing it has to do with the wayland philosophy as interpreted by those designing the spec, without either convincing them to violate those interpretations or creating an extended spec that everyone will default to over standard wayland, this problem is likely to persist for a long time.
Personally I'm skeptical they'll actually pull it off, but I'm not in their head so who knows, it does make me more doomer for wayland though.
It's already slowly being violated with Portals and Wayland but it'll be a long process
@MegaCake1234
Have you ever talked with any of them? You call them autistic and ignorant, but you don't even know who they are, you don't know how they act or treat potential use cases. You also say "it's not for them to decide" actually yes it is, it is for people that take part in the discussions and care for the project and spend their time trying to help, not some random comments on the internet, of people that don't try to help and just complain. You don't have to be super technical to help, you just have to have a will to do so, if you don't have it, at least don't offend people that have it, complain about the end product not about people that made it.
@@poly9306
"Have you ever talked with any of them?"
I've seen their responses to the exact issues that people needed to make workarounds for or the ones for which they won't implement at all and multiple times they said they're extremely against it and their responses left no room to being convinced claiming "security" usually without alternative. This has happened enough times that its pretty clear that how their philosophy is being interpreted is the problem.
"You call them autistic and ignorant"
I didn't call them ignorant though and I don't believe they are. I called them autistic because they are being excessively special over how they interpret their philosophy to the point of uselessness. We're not building software to satisfy our egos but how they approach issues that's what it really appears to be.
"but you don't even know who they are you don't know how they act or treat potential use cases."
They've made enough public statements that I feel confident saying what I have, if you don't like it you can see what they said on these issues but I'm not going to placate you if you're gonna act like a fanboy who assumes what I've said when I haven't. If you're gonna have a preconceived notion of me over these things I don't care about changing your mind but you don't get to attack me with an appeal to accomplishment and act like that's alright.
"You also say "it's not for them to decide" actually yes it is"
If you're building software and software specifications with the expressed purpose of deciding how people use the software then that's pretty immoral and dumb. If I build a game, produce it so anyone can play it, and someone mods it for their own enjoyment that doesn't harm anyone else's experience or perhaps even enriches another one's only, if I get mad and tell him to stop because he's using the software wrong, who is really in the right there? If I fork a FOSS window manager like gnome and spend a long period of time modifying it to something I'd like and otherwise keep it under the same license and the original developers get mad, am I really in the wrong? So I don't have a right to do what I wish with my own computer and that which I put on it? Cause that was my entire point there, they put so much effort into snubbing that behavior that it makes it impossible for anyone to have a general system with said behavior, its entirely their fault that we don't have a wayland standard for things like general video capture and global hotkeys at all. They have no excuse for that, it can easily be done in a secure way in some manner and those are essential features for our systems.
"it is for people that take part in the discussions and care for the project and spend their time trying to help, not some random comments on the internet, of people that don't try to help and just complain."
I've seen the discussions they've had and I've been dissuaded from even considering it. I have no regard for someone who will flame me like a fanboy because he doesn't understand their responses to these issues are a problem. Had they not so quickly shut those discussions down and given actually decent reasoning for what they say then I would've been keen to look kindly on them but since they don't operate rationally I since can only look at them under a negative disposition. Call it complaining all you want, I'm just stating facts and using reason. Don't shoot the messenger.
"You don't have to be super technical to help"
No but I have nothing to add given their responses. And besides that I could be super technical anyway, I'm a pretty experienced and knowledgeable software engineer so I know how to.
"you just have to have a will to do so,"
Perhaps I would have if not for the wayland designers.
"if you don't have it, at least don't offend people that have it"
If you're offended by it, that suggests one of two things, either I hit way too close to home and you couldn't take it or you're assuming that it was some kind of attack when it wasn't. Offense over this is not capable with a reasonable people, I have said nothing worthy of offense here. If you want to do stuff with it that's your prerogative but don't force your ideology down my throat, I have a right to be mad for wayland failing to be what they touted it to be. It is not a functional replacement design for xorg. You don't get to tell me what I can and can't do and neither do you have a right to tell me I'm wrong by using fallacious arguments like that. I don't have to talk to them, I don't have to be involved, I merely need to see what they've said and come to my own conclusions about who and what they are. That's what I'm speaking from, I don't need to rationalize it further.
"complain about the end product not about people that made it."
The people are responsible for the end product, if their philosophy fails to produce a suitable end product, its not the products fault, why should I blame the product for something that's clearly their fault? This logic makes no sense, are products capable to make themselves out of nowhere? If they ignore problems calling it a feature and won't listen to anybody who has a rational issue with that response then I have a right to get mad over that. That's gonna make the end product crap and its because they're acting foolish and thinking foolish things. Just because its a FOSS project does neither mean the contributors and owners aren't responsible for it being bad, that's just a bad argument. I'd go as far as to call it a deflection argument which is fallacious.
2:50 Why do people keep repeating this meme? x11 has a protocol extension literally called "security", and it was added 26 years ago. Then 20 years ago XACE was added which is per-application fine grained security, in contrast to wayland which has no security model at all.
Because it doesn't seem to be used much, saying Wayland doesn't have a security model doesn't make any sense
@@BrodieRobertson its not used because nobody really cares because "security" for graphical applications is a meme, but that doesn't mean at all that x11 hasn't addressed the problem. And yes, wayland has no security model. Wayland doesn't actually deal with security, it just ignores it. You can run x11 applications in the exact same way actually. Wayland instead pushes all the security burden on third party solutions, and instead expects a lot of features to be put into one application (the shell). Wayland is designed from the ground up for every shell to be as bloated as gnome. Wlroots fixes this somewhat by implementing the 60 000 lines of code that you would have to implement yourself, but on x11 these 60 000 lines of code are not needed at all.
@@BrodieRobertson As an example, on x11 we have window embedding which allows applications to run separately in different processes but still appear in one window. This makes it secure because if the embedded application has a bug that is abused then it wont affect other processes. This is done with 1 line in x11. To do this in wayland you pretty much need to implement a whole compositor, which is minimum 60 000 + 3000 lines of code. As a result, there isn't a single application that actually does it and just puts multiple applications into one. Now if there is a bug in the embedded application then it has full access to your application as well.
I use this embedding in my software for the video player. Video players have a lot of code and parts are even written in assembly for performance reasons. When I run it as a secondary process I can limit which syscalls the process can use so even if the code has a bug and is taken over by malware, the malware cant do anything. The kernel will automatically kill the process if the process tries to open another file than the video file.
@@BrodieRobertson I say this is a developer who has worked in xserver and wlroots and made multiple x11 and wayland applications, so i'm not speaking from ignorance
@@notuxnobux It seems like pipes would allow for achieving the same result while also ensuring that the un-windowed processes could not become malicious keyloggers.
Ys VIII is probably the best JRPG I've ever played
The primordial roar felt too gimmicky and just slowed down fights but everything else was fantastic
you should start doing merch with "Wayland is like a burger " !
I've been using Sway since 1.0 (3 years), and it honestly has been pretty kind to me
It's not that you CAN'T do these things on Wayland because of the limitation. It's just that they have to be done differently. It's 2022 and apps don't have to rely on obscure mechanism where an application just reads whatever you type just to make its checks all the time just to take action on certain key presses or just grabs from a screen whatever they like. It can be done way better than that.
The fact that missing specifications are coming very slowly is another topic. The development model and directions that were chosen are not necessarily the most efficient ones. Going away from monolith is fine, but the fact that there's no common, standard library shared across compositor for basic stuff is such a bummer. Wlroots would be great candidate, but it was a little late after rush to make other implementations.
Currently, Wayland is useless with a few of my apps. It was so frustrating, I had to revert to x11.
Man the plot twist at 8:55 hit hard .
It almost crashed my system.
lol, wayland is a burger
@@johnwpierce3
And wayland isn't real.
@@xrafter burgers are not real
@@moister3727
Just like wayland.
@@xrafter the why i'm using it
Wayland ideally should have something like polkit and have it be more standardized if a applications wants key strokes it should prompt the user for a password
that's what XDG desktop portals is for.
Basically even more fragmentation. Great
At least now a days you can use wayland in a vm to try things out.
Finally, If I was waiting for this video, I will be happy.
Waiting another 5 years, for Wayland becoming usable.
You can change keybindings on udev level, no need to use the window server
Is there a way to use that to interact with applications with global hotkeys
@@BrodieRobertson With udev you can allow applications to access /dev/input directly so they can access input devices even in tty, but applications need to read data from /dev/input instead of using wayland and x11 so no, those applications wont work automatically. But at least with wlroots, I believe there is a way to actually globally read keyboard inputs since wlroots doesn't really care about the wayland spec and just adds its own features on top (which makes it actually usable). There is ydotool for example for wlroots which is an alternative to xdotool (note, it only works for wlroots and not other wayland shells).
@@notuxnobux that's a good idea. I should try to patch OBS
Can't have your password stolen by keylogger if you can't type at all
One thing I need is a way to remote access it the way another user sees it on screen at the login screen.
Every day we fall farther from Plan 9's grace. Perhaps Arcan will be able to save us.
Flameshot works perfectly for me on wlroots now, although it didn't for quite a while
Have they FINALLY fixed it? 11 years of no screenshots?
@@DashieTM Works for me on Sway, tested with both AMD and Nvidia
Using gnome on fedora (with AMD GPU) and I never really had all those problems. I guess this is one of the benefits of having a DE that is trying to be a cohesive platform also
I don't understand this notion of stuff like how global hotkeys are handled is "taking security too far" especially when you proposed a way to add them that doesn't compromise on that security.
Btw, there's an xdg-portal for hotkeys that's currently being worked on and OBS Studio already has code implemented into it in preparation of it.
"Wayland is really a thing" doesn't make sense to me either as you directly compared it to Xorg, not X11 which is what it's most similar to. Xorg is more comparable to Mutter or Kwin as both are libraries that actually implement the protocol. You just don't see the same kind of issues in X sessions is because Xorg is pretty much the only X11 implementation that anyone uses anymore. Just because their isn't a single compositor that everybody collectively uses, doesn't mean Wayland is any less of a thing.
I'm literally making your point about it being a protocol
Finally had to ditch Wayland after 6 months for Xorg due to problems with recording.
We finally did it boys! 🥳
🎊🎉🐜🐧🥳
nvidia and valve are working on bringing gamescope support for Geforce cards, I really want to try it
I heard about this but I'm not really sure why, NVIDIA steam deck? Maybe
@@BrodieRobertson because of Steam OS 3, it will be weird to launch an OS that only works on AMD cards on the desktop, they want Wayland going forward, since it gives the opportunity for overlays, FSR, etc
@@BUDA20 I know they were going to release the iso but I didn't think they'd actually support custom inatalls
the same problem of global hotkeys is also for gromit-mpx screen annotation tool
For me the issue is scaling makes xwayland blurry, and I need to use two eclipse based gtk2 apps for work so wayland is a no go :(
There's a reason I still use 1080p
If you use arch you can install hidpi fork of xwayland and wlroots from aur which disables wayland/wlroots scaling and then allows you to use Xft.dpi/GDK_SCALE/qt scale instead which gives you hidpi in x11 applications without blur
@Opal Mizrahi Qt4+Gtk2 was the peak of human achievement. Something like 10+ years after Eclipse introduced dock+snap+resize ANYWHERE sub-windows, a handful of applications are finally getting 80% of this functionality. Qt still can't do it well. Kdevelop is light-years behind Eclipse, and people only tolerate garbage like VScode and Intellij because they lack so many features that they don't really have poor-quality implementations.
During the Gtk2 era, you had powerful universal controls (X11), and powerful cross-platform support. You can literally just tell Gtk2 to use QtCurve and have a single theme for all apps. One Icon+Mouse+Color+Widget theme for ALL apps.
Desktop PC has never gotten back to being that usable.
@@fnamelname9077 Blame GNOME for how much GTK has fallen since 2. KDE has wanted to make GTK fit in in Plasma, and always to GNOME pushback.
They fell off hard when they moved to CSS in that standpoint.
@@ThatLinuxDude CSS. Oh my god lol. EVERYTHING that's happening in web right now is "don't use CSS, pretend it doesn't exist by using SAS".
The WEB even thinks CSS is a terrible idea. And here Gnome is, trying to make the desktop CSS. "Don't be a programmer, don't have access to the widget instance, that's illegal! Just use super modern cool technology css! It's 25 years ago and everyone still thinks it's not literally the worst idea in all of time and space!"
At the point where wayland expects you to force ALL your applications to run through xwayland, is where you would probably go "I should just use XOrg" lmao
It's a bit rough
@@BrodieRobertson
Indeed it is
Nice, a Nihon Falcom Corporation game featured on a Linux channel, i love Falcom game.
How the does the compositor compare to whatever Apple uses?
Been using GNOME wayland for a bit now, and it has its pain points (for me): electron-based apps (they need some configuration to make them work and with discord I need to also pass in --disable-gpu to make it work, can't share the screen there either) and input mapping. I have a vertical mouse that has fucked mapping on Linux, on X11 I just used xinput (I think?) to reassign everything but on Wayland it's pain. There is input-mapper, and it worked for me eventually, but my god it took a lot of time for me to get it working (I have to use beta version, stable one doesn't work at all). Dk if it was bc I use Garuda, but wine/proton work fine for me, didn't have to change any configs. Other than that, works fine. Much faster (animations, input response, no screen tearing etc) than X11, especially with the amount of extensions I have.
I really don't like Wayland. I mean, maybe it's true that Xorg was getting a bit long in the tooth. But Wayland was a terrible solution. I feel like all they did was dump the burden of supporting GPU hardware onto the kernel, and then dump the burden of maintaining a compositor onto those developing desktop environments. If Wayland were just a lightweight answer to Xorg that dumped a lot of legacy components, that would be one thing. But that's not what they did. Wayland is merely an archtecture and a protocol library that provides absolutely nothing. The reason why GNOME works well on Wayland is because GNOME has written the compositor and essentially the entire backend of what is running on "Wayland." KDE has its own compositor. And then... if you aren't KDE or GNOME, there's not a maintained Xorg compositor to fall back on. Just a reference implementation that you are expected to maintain yourself. It screws over alternative OSes that don't have mature kernel driver support and may have relied on X for display drivers, and also makes the problem of Linux being standardized on GNOME and punishing you for choosing anything else even worse than it already was. So they've created a situation where if you want a good experience with Wayland, you have to use Linux, you have to use GNOME, and you have to use SystemD. If you don't fall into all three of those categories, Wayland is just a giant middle finger saying "Screw you, use GNOME on Linux and be happy with your efficient centralized, interdependent mess of an OS where all the choices are made for you, and choosing anything else is a slow painful fight with the system you will eventually lose." They took something that well-established that worked for a lot of different environments and was standardized, threw it in the trash, and decided to just create a pseudo-standard that simply rewards the big players... Linux and GNOME. Wayland is basically just a nice-sounding word for GNOME talking directly to the kernel display drivers and SystemD without Xorg there at all. The outcome would be no different if that were the case, and in fact it wouldn't have been much more work for the GNOME team if that were indeed the case.
8:35 where are you setting that config?
To fix the mouse bug in games i usually toggle fullscreen (fullscreen -> windowed -> Fullscreen). Seems to work with all of my games
Didn't address anything in my case, plus there are games that don't have controller support so getting to that point is a challenge
launch steam in gamescope with steam integration and use the deckui works really good and solves pretty much all problems
That's a workaround not a solution
Offtop, but you need to see this. There's some big news from Asahi
Just watch the latest stream. It's called "Bringing up Asahi Linux on the M1 Ultra".
(if you get bored or don't have half an hour, you can skip to 20 minutes in and watch from there)
I don't have those problems on KDE Wayland
Steam Remote still doesn't work in Gnome Wayland.
it seems like maybe my 2nd comment here was deleted? but was merely just trying to be helpful and suggest waycrate/swhkd for key chords, for invoking scratchpads. or whatever overloading of other global keyboard shortcuts that you might wish to do
but while im here, for obs why not just use v5 and then write a script to curl the obs webserver plugin? then can assign some global hotkeys to invoke your script instead of the obs cli. or is it that the obs cli is just too complicated to be replacing so easily? in which case i suppose just have to wait a bit longer then for obs-cli to get updated for v5
RUclips likes to delete random stuff, I haven't looked at the webserver API bit it can't be that complicated my concern is that most other people won't go through that effort
Several times RUclips has deleted my comments on _just-released_ videos if I leave 2 of them in a short span of time.
seems it doesn't play nice with the roll your own nature of a WM.
you are probably using wayland wrong for gaming you should be using gamescope ${options} ${game} or add gamescope ${options} to your steam launch options this starts an entire new desktop for only your game using xwayland and enables asynchronous page flips
Still use bspwm?
Try riverwm!
Wayland isn't young. It was released 13 years ago. Windows went from vista to 11. Can't believe Linux is taking so long to do something macos and windows can do such a long time ago.
Windows doing what? On windows aplications have full access to everything just like x11. Windows hasn't really changed in the core ui aspect in many decades.
And then there are people who consider fragmentation as power of linux
Exactly it's really young, Xorg is a direct fork of Xfree86 making the project 31 years old
Spec might be 13 years old but its implementations have only started seriously taking off in the recent years
I cant help but think Wayland might've been a bad idea. Linux fragmentation is a double edged sword. Wayland is a great example.
What happened to mir?
interesting, I use Wayland and don't have that mouse problem. Some X11 games just straight up crash, forcing me to use the Proton versions. Those work fine with mouse tho.
What are you running? I know it's wlroots related
@@BrodieRobertson KDE Plasma (kwin) wayland on Arch Linux under an amdGPU.
games that crash native are smaller indie games like CrossCode.
Somehow TF2 works perfectly. I feel like some of the newer ones or upkept either have wayland support or somehow automatically run Xwayland.
I'm assuming the ones that crash try to get run as wayland. Interestingly, it causes the controller driver to break in the same games that crash.
I have 2 monitors with different refresh rates on XOrg it barley works on Wayland it's great only issue is NVIDIA :P
Doesn't X have XAuthority?
X has XACE which is even better (XAuthority is just implemented on top of XACE now). 20 years ago XACE was added to work with selinux and if you use selinux you get a gui to select permissions per-app. This was added by redhat and the US government for their security requirements.
I pretty much disagree with you: Most users could use a wlroots wayland compositor everyday. What I think you mean is power users.
There some further problems about getting towards desktop environments though, because most independent DEs so far are just gnome offshoots and dependent on mutter.
No I mean general users, a power user is the sort of person who wil work around these problems, look for software that works with there compositor others won't
@@BrodieRobertson if it’s normal users, then it’s because there is not a complete DE, as I implied. But that’s sort of an expected problem; you wouldn’t go to a “normal” user and tell them to use a WM, right? Of course there are distros shipping DEs around sway or other compositors that make that easy enough.
The only actual DE that I’d know with some mileage, is phosh which is again very specific.
Have you tried the OBS flatpak?
That's what I use
@@BrodieRobertson Well it was worth a try because I had problems with smplayer on wayland and the flatpak solved it.
I have used sway for years now. it is alot more extensible than i3 imho. and ofc it is super fast/responsive.
I also experience waylands oversecurity for example in eww elkowar does'nt want to implement a taskabr module s theres millions of ways to get open apps on wayland depending on the implementation
most annoying thing to me is owning a variable refresh rate monitor and people still not understanding why i would want vsync off lol
There's a toggle for variable refresh rate in sway, I'm not certain if it works
What about Mir?
Is there a dwm for wayland?
DWL
pipewire captures screen?
nvidia left the chat.
NVIDIA still doesn't quite work with Wayland, unfortunately .
I heard it's better than a year ago but I don't have an NVIDIA card to test it
Hi Brodie, can you please make a video about xonsh - python powered shell. I like the way you go over things and express your opinion about stuff. I would really appreciate it if you'd make it a reality! Thanks in advance!
Just popped in to say Hi.
hi wayland
Hello wayland, you aren't real.
As someone with two monitors of differing resolutions and refresh rates, I'd rather deal with Wayland's rough edges. Plus I love pipewire. xorg's equivalent to window/screen capture severely hurts performance in my experience, if it even works. The only thing I don't like about Sway specifically is no window capture on OBS. That functionality isn't even on xdg-desktop-portal-wlr-git yet. It's not a big deal on Sway because I can just use StreamFX's source mirror to copy a screen capture for both windows I use with their own cropping filters since I use a consistent window layout.
Why is XWayland a separate process? It makes X11 apps feel like second class citizens, there is no reason for XWayland not run in another thread.
It's likely due to make everything secure, if it's in a seperate process you can sandbox it
@@BrodieRobertson X11Apps already run in another process.
@@cheako91155 more seperation = more security
Its a standalone project unrelated to any wayland shell implementation which runs the x11 server. Gnome (if i recall correctly) also doesn't even start the x11 server unless an x11 application is running and it also shuts it down when you close the last x11 application. Xwayland is optional, and all wayland shells dont even support it.
@@notuxnobux That's what I'm saying... Don't treat X11 as an afterthought.
I faced none of these issues on Sway, KDE or GNOME. *shrug*
do we have an xdotool already?
Ydotool on wlroots based compositors
I don't like that wayland composites over games. I really want to give it a chance, but the effect it has on the "smoothness" of the game is vital. I play anything to competitive to casual games, and it making my 165 fps game look like 60 fps but somehow 165 at the same time is just too big of a downgrade to ignore. The weird frametimes and effects make me motion sick. I asked my partner to tell the difference between the two, (i have 2 pcs) and they said one looked like it was capped at a low fps. I told them it was wayland and they responded with, "At this point, as a gamer, there's no viable reason to use wayland until it's changed.
someone should make a universal wayland extension for global key inputs
It'll come with time, it took a long time for pipewire to come along
Wayland devs: _”let’s make a window manager that doesn’t know which window has focus.”_
A window does know if it has focus, you get enter events for the keyboard and pointer.
You can only know if one of your application's windows are focused though.
@@monkev1199 The window knows, but wayland doesn’t (or if it does, it refuses to tell you). I just finished writing a program that automatically changes input device profiles based on the active window. This is essential functionality if Linux ever hopes to be a legitimate gaming replacement to Windows, and is impossible to accomplish within the base wayland specification
Good video.
From what I've seen Gnome on Wayland works quite great and the rest is "meh"... And it makes sense. It turns out that when you get into the meat, implementing an agnostic window manager over the display server is just too complex, because Wayland requires more from it than Xorg (not just the compositor, also the keyboard management, etc.). At this point, it feels overwhelming and that tiling WMs has to become quasi full-blown DEs (not quite), and that defeats the purpose of running something like xmonad or dwm.
Regarding APIs or implementation of Wayland protocols, it is difficult to say. Most of what is wanted is basically wlroots itself. The rest, which is a lot, must be implemented by the DE/WM because that would go against the flexibility of Wayland (according to some issues I read on Wayland's gitlab), which allows for more options than a Xorg client. There are nice frameworks on different languages which look very promising (e.g, smithay), though.
I use gnome Wayland and I have had zero issues. It even has better battery life
@@darin7553 That's the general trend I think. It makes me want to use Fedora Gnome (also because I like how Fedora is doing) instead of my tiling WM in arch, but I am so comfortable with it than now changing to a floating one would be very frustrating. I hope we all can learn from Gnome's Wayland implementation.
Wayland Yutani Corp.
On the other hand, Xorg has worse touchpad gesture support especially on Gnome. So making mac-like experience is quite hard on Xorg
I want Wayland to be good there are great parts but as a whole I can't recommend it
@@BrodieRobertson everything has pros and cons my friend. Sometimes I have to switch to Xorg before Zoom meeting because Zoom dev didn't implement pipewire any better
just cut the end of use xorg.. there are so little people streaming Lon Linux honestly but so many concerned about security that this is the right move imo
OBS is only one concern, every app with global hotkeys breaks
This security "issue" was fixed 20 years ago with XACE (+ selinux), but nobody except the US government ended up using it, why? x11 is 37 years old and global hotkeys has never been abused by malware in all of those years, so in practice nobody is actually concerned with those issues and they are not real issues. People prefer common sense + ease of use. Wayland is trying to fix a problem nobody actually had when it comes to security.
"This"?
@@notuxnobux According to the documentation for "XACE_RECEIVE_ACCESS," "This hook allows security extensions to prevent a client from receiving X events that have been delivered to a given window." So, XACE does _not_ adhere to SELinux's "model of least-privilege" in which - according to its CentOS documentation - "everything is denied and then a series of exceptions policies are written that give each element of the system (a service, program or user) only the access required to function." Meanwhile, we see that Wayland does _partially_ do so.
Wayland is not real. Wayland is a burger. - Brodie Robertson
true and real
so wayland is this awesome thing that doesn't even exist yet?
ok so like ... let me know when there is at least an SDK or something so that the software targeting Wayland is consistent.
Expecting software consistency on Wayland is like expecting LEGO to sell toys that are already assembled. It totally make sense to sell already assembled toys. But that's not the point of LEGO. So, those who don't want to assemble their toys should buy something else.
It makes sense to have software consistency, but that's not the point of Wayland. So, those who want software consistency should use something else.
@@brinckau but generally lego comes with a booklet of examples that you can make with the lego.
In my opinion Wayland just sucks. One example: there is a little application called sct which control screen color temperature. Does something like that exists on Wayland? NO. Wayland just doesnt have all the little useful programs that X does. In fact, Wayland is just monolithic and goes against unix philosophy.
Sounds like you haven't done any research (or if you did, sorry, you're looking to wrong places) because, for wlroots there are 3 different tools for that: wlsunset, wl-gammactl, gammastep; use what you want. For gnome and kde, they have it built-in.
If you use simple WMs and want simple external tools, you want to use the wlroots ecosystem not kde nor gnome. You can checkout sway wiki for "Useful-add-ons-for-sway" page to see a dozen of small useful tools.
And it's the exact opposite of what you've said, the issue comes from that Wayland not being monolithic, by any means. İt's so freaking modular that it misses pieces. That's why you have 3 different implementations now. Xorg is monolithic and was even more monolithic before x11. "X was it's own OS" says old xorg developer while creating Wayland. Maybe watch the "The real story behind Wayland and X" from linux conf 2013
@@Beryesa. I think you're right. Maybe the hatred I feel for Wayland is irrational and undeserved. But it seems to me that every time I try it, so many things just break that I just give up after a few days. To me, as a user, X is just perfect the way it is and Wayland just introduces so many small, but unwanted and annoying problems that I cannot see why it's being pushed so hard by the distros.
@@marciomaiajr It's pushed hard so those annoyances can get attention and fixed. Before, much of the issues was external, because lack of adoption, they're somewhat fixed now except some non-up-to-date proprietary apps (e.g. discord, zoom...).
The issues left is more about specifications that could not be agreed upon together by everyone, yet. Which needs time & collaboration from devs.
Which is not just a dream, a great collaboration happened for standardizing screensharing via xdg-desktop-portal & pipewire for example.
@@Beryesa. Uh, how is Wayland modular at all? Keys, compositor, window managing: all done by the same program. That's the definition of monolithic.
@@vladlu6362 You use X server and put a window manager on it, put a compositor on it and say it's modular and less code.
But actually, what you wrote/added as wm is just *a client* just like any other window, except it's spamming X in every fractions of a second to grab everything and the compositor just post-proccesses the images, as yet another client.
Xorg doesn't know the difference between your wm and a regular app window. It just gives what's requested by clients, it is still a giant by itself.
Of course a client will be much lighter than the server. (That's also the case with wayland clients except they can't do whatever they want without permission.) You can't compare a wayland compositor with an X wm, you should compare the wc to "X server *+* the client managing the windows". You will only find out how giant the Xorg sloc by itself is (without even including the wm client's code). The thousand line wc is only a fraction compared to X.
Wayland merges window management and compositing for sure, why do the work twice? How doing it once but properly, is worse than having to go over multiple times?
Keys were handles poorly by xorg itself till they got separated to proper libraries, Wayland mainly uses the libinput library but everyone using the same library doesn't mean wayland itself is handling the input. Wayland compositor just controls where the input (from libinput) flows (to which client requesting it). Xorg doesn't do that, everyone randomly grabs the keys.
*When I say Wayland is modular* , it's the protocols that makes the wayland specification, and a compositor can implement (or not) the protocols for their needs. That way, wayland can dynamically change (as it's just a spec and multiple protocols) and move on to future technologies for upcoming decades when required.
Take a look at how a wayland compositor handles rendering backend, frontent and stuff... and compare it to x server. Wayland makes it much possible to modularate those, just take a look at wlroots code for real example.
Gamescope for instance uses the wlr frontent but has it's own Vulkan backend, wayfire implements it's own renderer instead of the wlr provided one and kwinFT switched to wlroots base part by part, as it can, as there are many separate parts. How much more modular do you want?