Coming to bluegrass from traditional jazz, this was the first thing I noticed. A brisk tempo in jazz or bebop usually starts at 200bpm where soloist usually plays (not always of course) 8th notes. When I saw a tempo written as 100bpm I thought it was going to be a ballad. 30 years of playing jazz the only way I could fix this in my mind was to say that bluegrass has a 2/4 feel. I'm gonna be honest though, it still messes with me.
When you were like "I bet you're tapping your foot like THIS" I was tapping exactly opposite to those beats, which was concerning, until I remembered I'm a mandolin player watching a guitar video. Nicely done as usual, Marcel!
There's quite a bit of jazz feel on the loose in bluegrass, and even in old-timey with all the rags. The jazz geeks say (1) that metronomes should tick on 2 and 4, or (2) that they should tick on the ands after 2 and 4, or (3) whatever else they think will help them render the tune with the right groove, whatever that is. Of course, those prodigies can play with the metronome here, the foot tap there, and the snaps someplace else, and its not that unusual to see a jazz musician tapping one foot two beats per measure and the other foot four. How to keep the ground rules straight at a comingled gig?
it is also great practice to use this concept to your advantage in practice. If you play a tune at 100 bpm, try setting the metronome at 50 but still playing the same speed, or 25, or 200, etc.
Thanks for the video. Nicely done. Such a confounding topic. I write a lot of Nashville number charts and for years was stumped on the simplest way to indicate tempos for “boom-chick” country songs. The drummer usually being the chart reader most analytical on the tempo marking, I had multiple discussions with drummers on their preferred way to read this. It finally came down to marking “quarter note=“ even though the tempos look crazy fast. Also a simple note on the chart indicating boom/chick or cut time seems to get the job done. Thanks again! Glad to know I’m not the only one trying to figure out the best way to write these tempos!
Oh man I feel a little like a Forked Deer in headlights after all that talk of quarter, half, sixteen, thirty two etc jargon. Especially the printed music section. I think I understood it but I really think I feel it better than I can count it. Does that make sense? Has Marcel just unlocked the Bluegrass beat like the Davinci Code or rules to a Haiku?
I’m a quarter note= kind of bpm guy, so I was tapping twice as fast. But it gets more complicated than this. Some Bluegrass transcriptions will show licks or runs as eighth notes, some will show them as sixteenth notes, though the intended tempo is the same.
I think fiddle tunes are eighth notes yet some books notate them in sixteenth notes (which is wrong lol). But really the style of music was never originally written down or notated so it’s all speculation
I mean, yeah generally the rare people who were writing down the tunes weren't the people performing them. There is one interesting book called Knauff's Virginia Reels, which was published in 1839. It's basically the first published collection of southern fiddle tunes. He chooses to write things in 2/4 with a 16th note as the standard subdivision. Which is funny because he ends up with eight 16th notes per measure. He could have just written 8th notes in cut time but instead he implied the same groove on paper with 2/4 and 16th notes. So maybe the take away is with eighth notes write in cut time and with sixteenth notes write in 2/4.
Hi Marcel - well done for tackling this - I had to sort it all out for myself years ago, and yes, it can be confusing! I think some on-screen written music with tablature would have helped, maybe at a slower pace. 'Blackberry Blossom' is I think a good example of bluegrass foot tapping - one tap every four notes.
the other advantage of counting each metronome beat as a 1/4 note is to place the click on the offbeat as if it were the mandolin chunk. this helps you groove a swing feel. and yes, technically we're playing 16th notes, one eee and a two eee... even though they are typically written as 8th
Marcel, a very interesting and informative lesson. Immediately, tapping my foot to the bass is sinking in. Going to take some digesting. But, that hair is the bomb.
Hi Marcel, I have seen an occasional bluegrass song book written in 2/4 time. Which I've heard describe as marching band style. Anyway based on the typical 1 and 5 bass beat per measure. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Thanks your expertise on explaining this.
One Two, One Two Three Four the standard count off. It's fairly well understood that One Two is cut time and One Two Three Four the actual tempo. So the foot is often tapping out two beats per measure while the head and hands are working on four beats per measure. Jazz like Bluegrass is very much an aural tradition music. But when it comes to notation, Jazz is routinely written with 8th notes not 16ths. A lot of thought and common sense thinking went into this tradition. Bluegrass only recently began to think about these things so there is a lack of standard thinking on subjects like this. But over time I believe most people will see the advantage in the way the jazzers have developed their practices.
Marcel - many thanks for this video. Lots of teachers say 'practice with a metronome', but un†il I watched this video, I couldn't work out how to usefully set the thing. What was meant by 'beats per minute'? In my head, 4/4 time has 4 beats per bar, so I end up with super high numbers. That can't be right - maybe you just count the first beat - duh, now everything has super low numbers. Cut time - never heard of it, but now that I have, I can compare my metronome measurement of where I am at with the published bpm rates for well known versions of tunes. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I just started the banjo, and I'm having a hard time playing and counting. I do most of it by feel BUT I know I'm messing up. Any suggestions? Not to sound to stupid, but how do you know which note to pluck / play with the metronome?
Counting and playing by ear/feel are two different skills - at least at first. Try counting and clapping before you play your guitar to get the rhythm. Work on a measure or phrase at a time instead of a whole tune.
Take a chill pill, haha. Nah man, most people would just find that to be a pretty fast speed to tap one foot. Take in everything I said about the rhythm playing and the bass player and you'll get it. Tapping your foot twice as fast at 100bpm might be doable but at 170bpms probably not.
Marcel, I agree tapping your foot on the "Boom" is intuitive, and is what most people do, BUT a lot of people consider the boom to be the the first and third beats of 4/4. For example see around 2:30 of your video here: ruclips.net/video/937xtuqtMvs/видео.html where you are counting (boom chuck boom chuck) as 1 2 3 4 and writing out each line as four measures (CCGG). BECAUSE I think of the boom as the beat, I intuitively view that as two 4-beat measures (CG). This gets me into some trouble when communicating a chord progression and number of measures on each chord because I think about number of beats based on number of "booms" where as others think of the boom and chuck as each being beats. It is also a problem in progressions that repeat after 6 "booms" because I want to think in terms of 4 booms per measure. I want to think about timing in a way that is going to set me up for success long term, but I either need to count the booms in 2/4 to match what others think of a 4/4 measure OR only tap on the 1 and 3 beats, but in that case your 100pbm example is actually playing at 200bpm... I am still confused :)
I think the confusion is because cut time is 2/2. So there are 4 quarter notes in each measure, but we are setting the metronome and taping our foot to the beat of a half note
the no hat look really makes you look different...lol Thought this was another bluegrass dude. Although those sides are shaped up and tighter than usual. Great vid. and Tony shirt.
I experienced this when I first started learning banjo using the old Earl Scruggs book (which is wonderful), where everything was written in 16th notes. Like you said, there's a lot of ink on the page. Great explanation, but it doesn't get away from the fact that, regardless of how it's notated, bluegrass goes at a fair clip. If you are having problems with speed, what matters to you is not BPM but notes per second. In your index example, as I recall, you have 8 notes per measure and so you are getting through 50 measures in a minute. 400 notes in a minute is 6.6 notes a second. That's actually not fast at all for bluegrass. Take it up to 120 BPM and you are still only at 8 notes a sec. That's pretty much a standard fiddle tune speed in an informal jam. Have you considered wearing the cap with the peak at the front? I am an old person, but I understand that towards the side is now the modern, if unwelcome, styling.
Excellent comment , thanks for posting ! I too was confused with Earl's book, but had my 1st banjo teacher to play along with and he tapped his foot. I've heard the term ' cut time ' but had no clue what it meant. Just listened to the whole video to find that out. As for the hat ,, if this was my channel I'd have it on frontwards, and dispay what ever cool art work was on it. Love this channel and the hundreds of great people who post on it!
Hey Marcel, I think my foots broken. I tap my feet on the backbeat no matter how much I want to tap on the base. I think ive played too much mandolin. Any chance this could be part of some of my timing issues
Actually it doesn't matter. You're still tapping your foot just as often as you would be my way. You're just feeling the upbeat not the downbeat. All your tempo calculations should be correct still.
Looking at this from a GROOVE perspective only gets to exactly the same results without needing to look at notation at all. The video below very quickly gets to the heart of super simple drum grooves of standard/cut time (and half too). The smallest subdivision of the groove is the most important part. For cut time, there is no subdivision (hat) between the snare and bass hits. This the same rhythmic reference of the boom-chuck, bass/chop etc. We sub divide the groove only once, so we are in a cut time groove. Cut-time phrase length follows, and the notation should represent both the groove and the phrasing. ruclips.net/video/Vn4devWQ04s/видео.html
Sixteenth notes are ok as long as it's in 2/4, but I think it should just be cut-time and written with the cut-time symbol. I think it would just be better in the long run to write it as is instead just assuming whoever reads it will know you wrote it wrong on purpose.
If you look at tune collections in ABC notation, they include all the varieties, because ABC usually uses a time signature made up of two numbers. I think you'll find lots of 4/4, 2/4, 2/8, and some 2/2.
Totally disagree. In 4/4 time, to me it makes sense for the beats in bpm to be quarter notes, since that's what the time signature says. And our fiddle tunes were originally dance music. When I dance (square dance or contradance), I keep my place in the dance counting quarter notes in my head. When I was playing jazz, tempo markings were taken as quarter notes, and it seems like about half of bluegrass players count bpm in quarter notes. And it fits my pick direction better--every click is a down stroke. Just makes more sense. So 200 bpm is moderately fast, and 100 bpm is painfully slow.
Coming to bluegrass from traditional jazz, this was the first thing I noticed. A brisk tempo in jazz or bebop usually starts at 200bpm where soloist usually plays (not always of course) 8th notes. When I saw a tempo written as 100bpm I thought it was going to be a ballad. 30 years of playing jazz the only way I could fix this in my mind was to say that bluegrass has a 2/4 feel. I'm gonna be honest though, it still messes with me.
Plot twist: The guy who said he was stuck at 210 BPM was Jake Eddy.
When you were like "I bet you're tapping your foot like THIS" I was tapping exactly opposite to those beats, which was concerning, until I remembered I'm a mandolin player watching a guitar video. Nicely done as usual, Marcel!
There's quite a bit of jazz feel on the loose in bluegrass, and even in old-timey with all the rags. The jazz geeks say (1) that metronomes should tick on 2 and 4, or (2) that they should tick on the ands after 2 and 4, or (3) whatever else they think will help them render the tune with the right groove, whatever that is. Of course, those prodigies can play with the metronome here, the foot tap there, and the snaps someplace else, and its not that unusual to see a jazz musician tapping one foot two beats per measure and the other foot four. How to keep the ground rules straight at a comingled gig?
it is also great practice to use this concept to your advantage in practice. If you play a tune at 100 bpm, try setting the metronome at 50 but still playing the same speed, or 25, or 200, etc.
That was without a doubt THE most informative mind boggling lesson on tempo I’ve ever received. Thanks Marcel!
Thanks for the video. Nicely done. Such a confounding topic. I write a lot of Nashville number charts and for years was stumped on the simplest way to indicate tempos for “boom-chick” country songs. The drummer usually being the chart reader most analytical on the tempo marking, I had multiple discussions with drummers on their preferred way to read this. It finally came down to marking “quarter note=“ even though the tempos look crazy fast. Also a simple note on the chart indicating boom/chick or cut time seems to get the job done. Thanks again! Glad to know I’m not the only one trying to figure out the best way to write these tempos!
So glad i got called out on this! I’m a teenager trying to learn bluegrass and this was so true.
Oh man I feel a little like a Forked Deer in headlights after all that talk of quarter, half, sixteen, thirty two etc jargon. Especially the printed music section.
I think I understood it but I really think I feel it better than I can count it.
Does that make sense?
Has Marcel just unlocked the Bluegrass beat like the Davinci Code or rules to a Haiku?
I’m a quarter note= kind of bpm guy, so I was tapping twice as fast.
But it gets more complicated than this. Some Bluegrass transcriptions will show licks or runs as eighth notes, some will show them as sixteenth notes, though the intended tempo is the same.
This is the first time I have ever heard "rock and roll band" and "metronome" mentioned in the same sentence.
I think fiddle tunes are eighth notes yet some books notate them in sixteenth notes (which is wrong lol). But really the style of music was never originally written down or notated so it’s all speculation
I mean, yeah generally the rare people who were writing down the tunes weren't the people performing them.
There is one interesting book called Knauff's Virginia Reels, which was published in 1839. It's basically the first published collection of southern fiddle tunes. He chooses to write things in 2/4 with a 16th note as the standard subdivision. Which is funny because he ends up with eight 16th notes per measure. He could have just written 8th notes in cut time but instead he implied the same groove on paper with 2/4 and 16th notes. So maybe the take away is with eighth notes write in cut time and with sixteenth notes write in 2/4.
Awesome video. Just what my brain needed to fully get this stuff 🧠🤘
Hi Marcel - well done for tackling this - I had to sort it all out for myself years ago, and yes, it can be confusing! I think some on-screen written music with tablature would have helped, maybe at a slower pace. 'Blackberry Blossom' is I think a good example of bluegrass foot tapping - one tap every four notes.
Nice lesson Marcel.....
And by the way I love that dew 👍🏼❤️
the other advantage of counting each metronome beat as a 1/4 note is to place the click on the offbeat as if it were the mandolin chunk. this helps you groove a swing feel. and yes, technically we're playing 16th notes, one eee and a two eee... even though they are typically written as 8th
Marcel, a very interesting and informative lesson. Immediately, tapping my foot to the bass is sinking in. Going to take some digesting. But, that hair is the bomb.
Very enlightening. Thank you!
Hi Marcel, I have seen an occasional bluegrass song book written in 2/4 time. Which I've heard describe as marching band style. Anyway based on the typical 1 and 5 bass beat per measure. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Thanks your expertise on explaining this.
1 and 5? Typo? Turkish wedding band? 😵💫
@@chuckrrose sorry... root, five notes on the one and three beats
i was foot-tapping exactly as you wagered. Tony
One Two, One Two Three Four the standard count off. It's fairly well understood that One Two is cut time and One Two Three Four the actual tempo. So the foot is often tapping out two beats per measure while the head and hands are working on four beats per measure. Jazz like Bluegrass is very much an aural tradition music. But when it comes to notation, Jazz is routinely written with 8th notes not 16ths. A lot of thought and common sense thinking went into this tradition. Bluegrass only recently began to think about these things so there is a lack of standard thinking on subjects like this. But over time I believe most people will see the advantage in the way the jazzers have developed their practices.
Marcel - many thanks for this video. Lots of teachers say 'practice with a metronome', but un†il I watched this video, I couldn't work out how to usefully set the thing. What was meant by 'beats per minute'? In my head, 4/4 time has 4 beats per bar, so I end up with super high numbers. That can't be right - maybe you just count the first beat - duh, now everything has super low numbers. Cut time - never heard of it, but now that I have, I can compare my metronome measurement of where I am at with the published bpm rates for well known versions of tunes. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
In bluegrass it's 100 MPH not BPM
😂
Dude, the new haircut is awesome! Oh, I guess it’s what was under the hat lol!
Great lesson. Great haircut.
Thanks, did it myself!
Marcel, you've got that Tele sounding hot!
Well I hadn't planned on buying a shirt today, but here we are.
Rockin the Peaky Blinders haircut!
Hi - is there a tab anywhere for what you’re playing in this at around 3 mins in, please?
Lessons With Marcel .com get the beginner tab for Billy in the Lowground it's almost exactly the same!
I just started the banjo, and I'm having a hard time playing and counting. I do most of it by feel BUT I know I'm messing up. Any suggestions? Not to sound to stupid, but how do you know which note to pluck / play with the metronome?
Counting and playing by ear/feel are two different skills - at least at first. Try counting and clapping before you play your guitar to get the rhythm. Work on a measure or phrase at a time instead of a whole tune.
I was tapping twice as fast, what does this mean?
Take a chill pill, haha. Nah man, most people would just find that to be a pretty fast speed to tap one foot. Take in everything I said about the rhythm playing and the bass player and you'll get it.
Tapping your foot twice as fast at 100bpm might be doable but at 170bpms probably not.
I LOVE YOUR HAIRCUT! 😂
Marcel, I agree tapping your foot on the "Boom" is intuitive, and is what most people do, BUT a lot of people consider the boom to be the the first and third beats of 4/4. For example see around 2:30 of your video here: ruclips.net/video/937xtuqtMvs/видео.html where you are counting (boom chuck boom chuck) as 1 2 3 4 and writing out each line as four measures (CCGG). BECAUSE I think of the boom as the beat, I intuitively view that as two 4-beat measures (CG). This gets me into some trouble when communicating a chord progression and number of measures on each chord because I think about number of beats based on number of "booms" where as others think of the boom and chuck as each being beats. It is also a problem in progressions that repeat after 6 "booms" because I want to think in terms of 4 booms per measure. I want to think about timing in a way that is going to set me up for success long term, but I either need to count the booms in 2/4 to match what others think of a 4/4 measure OR only tap on the 1 and 3 beats, but in that case your 100pbm example is actually playing at 200bpm... I am still confused :)
I think the confusion is because cut time is 2/2. So there are 4 quarter notes in each measure, but we are setting the metronome and taping our foot to the beat of a half note
the no hat look really makes you look different...lol Thought this was another bluegrass dude. Although those sides are shaped up and tighter than usual. Great vid. and Tony shirt.
So cut time is 8th notes. 1and2and3and4and ?
I experienced this when I first started learning banjo using the old Earl Scruggs book (which is wonderful), where everything was written in 16th notes. Like you said, there's a lot of ink on the page. Great explanation, but it doesn't get away from the fact that, regardless of how it's notated, bluegrass goes at a fair clip. If you are having problems with speed, what matters to you is not BPM but notes per second. In your index example, as I recall, you have 8 notes per measure and so you are getting through 50 measures in a minute. 400 notes in a minute is 6.6 notes a second. That's actually not fast at all for bluegrass. Take it up to 120 BPM and you are still only at 8 notes a sec. That's pretty much a standard fiddle tune speed in an informal jam. Have you considered wearing the cap with the peak at the front? I am an old person, but I understand that towards the side is now the modern, if unwelcome, styling.
Excellent comment , thanks for posting !
I too was confused with Earl's book, but had my 1st banjo teacher to play along with and he tapped his foot.
I've heard the term ' cut time ' but had no clue what it meant. Just listened to the whole video to find that out.
As for the hat ,, if this was my channel I'd have it on frontwards, and dispay what ever cool art work was on it.
Love this channel and the hundreds of great people who post on it!
Hey Marcel, I think my foots broken. I tap my feet on the backbeat no matter how much I want to tap on the base. I think ive played too much mandolin. Any chance this could be part of some of my timing issues
Actually it doesn't matter. You're still tapping your foot just as often as you would be my way. You're just feeling the upbeat not the downbeat. All your tempo calculations should be correct still.
Don't knock the pompadour its a timeless and classic look lol
Most fiddle tunes do not Feel like 16ths
anything can feel like anything if you try hard enough
Looking at this from a GROOVE perspective only gets to exactly the same results without needing to look at notation at all.
The video below very quickly gets to the heart of super simple drum grooves of standard/cut time (and half too). The smallest subdivision of the groove is the most important part. For cut time, there is no subdivision (hat) between the snare and bass hits. This the same rhythmic reference of the boom-chuck, bass/chop etc. We sub divide the groove only once, so we are in a cut time groove. Cut-time phrase length follows, and the notation should represent both the groove and the phrasing.
ruclips.net/video/Vn4devWQ04s/видео.html
Very good! Now explain the difference between 2/2 and 2/4.🙂
I think that question came up somewhere in this video, hahaha. ruclips.net/video/Ow-9I6SYg3o/видео.html
Sixteenth notes are ok as long as it's in 2/4, but I think it should just be cut-time and written with the cut-time symbol. I think it would just be better in the long run to write it as is instead just assuming whoever reads it will know you wrote it wrong on purpose.
If you look at tune collections in ABC notation, they include all the varieties, because ABC usually uses a time signature made up of two numbers. I think you'll find lots of 4/4, 2/4, 2/8, and some 2/2.
Your hair is awesome.
Totally disagree. In 4/4 time, to me it makes sense for the beats in bpm to be quarter notes, since that's what the time signature says. And our fiddle tunes were originally dance music. When I dance (square dance or contradance), I keep my place in the dance counting quarter notes in my head. When I was playing jazz, tempo markings were taken as quarter notes, and it seems like about half of bluegrass players count bpm in quarter notes. And it fits my pick direction better--every click is a down stroke. Just makes more sense. So 200 bpm is moderately fast, and 100 bpm is painfully slow.
Yay I made it to a LWM video !
I think us banjer players think difrint . We ain’t all that smart.
reference point/context is king!
And maaaan - that look of concentration when you did rhythm for click = 16th note 😂
For real, I messed up that rhythm take like 5 times because my mind wandered.
Good looking head of hair...
I’m an old guy but I like the hat look. Whatever you like is good dude!
I really wanted to click on that top waffle house fights video
Bring back the hat! 😹
Get off the speed.
I wanna watch the 10 Waffle House fights video!