I think the "skipping turns" is to represent the idea from the video game, where you would have to go back to the Hunter's Dream to spend your blood echoes to level up. When you return to the game world, everything has respawned. In order for the card game to accurately represent the video game itself, it will have to introduce mechanisms that are high risk, high reward... since that is exactly how the video game works. Also, the fact that any enemy can kill you, definitely represents the game well. The video game is very unforgiving and the card game should be as well. Zee should get this if he has played the Souls video games(which are a different world/story). Sounds good to me. Definitely getting this one!
In the world of Bloodborne, the hunters often lose sight of themselves, becoming obsessed with the 'hunt'. In fact, almost all other hunters you meet during the game are actually bosses of their own. This makes it pretty much perfect for the cutthroat caverns type theming. Nice.
This has been our most played game from gen con. Being so fast and easy to learn is such a bonus. Also easy to get my videogame friends to join at the table. I personally love the dark themed games and this one is solid. Brovo Mr. Lang!!!! Great review guys!!
Average damage by the monsters varies from 1.2 to 3 points, depending on the die used. The blow out rolls like in Tom's example happen rarely. Having demoed the game for about a dozen plays I only had one case of an instakill. As to Zee getting 9 points on the last round, some of those points come from the trophies, so it's not unusual for you to get a good number of points. In theory, one could get twenty points or more, but it would be very unusual for that to happen.
Zee was so right here. Not only on the weak death mechanism but also on the randomness. Dark Souls and Bloodborne are one of the least random computer games there are. It's all about patterns and patience. Unless it's a bug you will never die in this game because some RNG hit you.
well mostly right,in dark souls monster attacks can be in diffrent styles and patterns per hit and you can get rnged in a boss fight like getting 2 strong attack consecutively.
"Bloodborne [is] one of the least random computer games there are" ... **points at a collection of chalices** **points to list of high-level blood gems only obtainable in thee deepest parts of the chalice dungeons by random chance**
I played this at the CMON Expo. Zee is being a little reductive. The simultaneous reveal of a card in your hand isn't random. As Tom pointed out, you are trying to anticipate what other players are going to play. Also, as Tom and Sam pointed out, going into the hunter's dream isn't a wasted turn. It's also a calculated decision, to continue to play aggressively to earn points or make a defensive move and bank them. But yes, it is a card game and therefore driven by luck-of-the-draw. I enjoyed my play.
Tom, and most of The Dice Tower from what I remember, has always held that the amount of randomness acceptable in a game is inversely proportional to the time it takes to play it. They've always felt like the shorter a game is, the more randomness is permissible without ruining the experience. And heck, Tom doesn't always say that pure random luck is bad in a board game. Look at how much he loves Galaxy Trucker. This game is honestly similar to Libertalia with dice and variable powers, so I'm not surprised that Tom and Sam enjoy it (and I am surprised that Zee was so anti).
On the one hand, I get loving a game in spite (or because) it's really random. I do that a lot (dice are cool). But I would never recommend a game that's really random without a huge disclaimer. I get that Tom and Sam like it, but if it's so random, they should acknowledge it and not use the play time to justify it.
+Malcom Chase I can't defend them for using bad arguments, but Tom did say under his breath when Sam says that (19:30 mark) that he disagrees about the level of randomness in the game.
TheMrE Well, I guess it's Zee's word versus Tom's whispered argument. I have not played the game, so I can't say which one is right. I can only go from what's on the video.
I've played it. It's no less random than, say, King of Tokyo, while at the same time offering many tactics to mitigate randomness (to a degree which many games like KoT don't).
The love for Eric Lang definitely shows in this review. I'm glad Zee spoke out on his reasons for not liking the game. Both Tom and especially Sam have commented on how much they hate overly dark themes, but give this one a pass? I wont be shocked if they praise "The Others" just cause it's designed by Eric Lang, but is darker than Chaos in The Old World
But Loved Blood Rage, Dice Masters, Arcadia Quest, XCOM, Kaosball, and Quarriors! to my most recent knowledge. He disliked one of his games he made 12 years ago, but Tom's love for Eric Lang spawned about 2 years ago, and has pretty much praised every one of his most recent releases. What is irksome to me, is that Tom has trashed games with the premise of "Play a Card, something happens," and that's exactly what's happening here along with the super randomness of dice. So much randomness it's reminding me of Phase 10, a game Tom despises. Now listen, I'm not comparing this to the sin known as Phase 10, I'm just saying it feels like there's some leeway being given to this game because it's designed by him. I can be completely wrong, but I wonder if this same exact game had been designed by Stefan Feld or Uwe Rosenberg or Steve Jackson, would they love it just as much. Just my two cents.
Disliking a game from so long ago, that no one else has ever heard of, doesn't count. The point is HOW MUCH he overhypes every Eric Lang game. Blood Rage was boring too.
I was really glad to see Zee's perspective. So far, it's been typical Lang gushing. Nothing about seeing the game has excited me and I keep watching different people talk about it because i thought I must be missing something, It may be a good game, but I appreciate hearing a contrasting opinion during the new game honeymoon period. I also thought it was revealing when Tom rolled 9 damage on his first roll and instantly killed everyone!
I understand, but if you calculate the odds of that happening (3 red exploding dice in a row = 3.7%), is not really that revealing. It just happened that time on camera.
For the most part, I am a fan of Lang's games (Kaos Ball has been the only one that I was not overly fond of). But since day one, this one has been a pass for me. I cant say why, maybe it is because it is based on a video game that I am not the biggest fan of, but this one wont be on my shelf. I am really looking forward to his upcoming Godfather game though!! :)
I believe that is not the case. It is not that random at all. My guess is that he / u did not understand the game well enough, due to limited playing time with it. The game is really good particularly due to the cunning potentials among players who r supposed to work together or not... Unique interactive game to have fun with, mainly male, friends and a must one for those in love with the DS / BB theme and idea. Well-made as well. A full 8/10 from me, but yet I am a bit subjective being a DS junkie... the randomness mentioned in the video though... sorry I can not see it. At least to the extend mentioned in the vid. : )
Zee is wrong on the skipping a turn thing, which is what made this sound bad for me though. You aren't really skipping a turn by playing Hunter's Dream, you keep yourself from dying, and you build your hand up. Tom was right there. Playing Hunter's Dream does not feel like skipping a turn at all, you just aren't scoring that turn, hoping the monster doesn't die that turn.
Why do ppl keep bringing up the "it's only 30 mins" argument as a bad argument? It's validity aside, it was brought up, like, twice out of many other positive things Sam and Tom mentioned. And like Sam, I too am surprised Zee didn't like it.
I hope they get around to try this with the new expansion "The Hunter’s Nightmare" I enjoyed it from the start, but I think it made the game even more solid, I especially like the Death tokens that "block" spots on your trophy track every time you die.
I played this recently, and didn't remember this review, but was skeptical, because, you know video game IP card game. I was pleasantly surprised and found myself making the same arguments in my head defending the game that Tom and Sam were before they did. I think the combination of the hand-building, press your luck and out-guessing your opponents makes for a really good time that outweighs the randomness which mostly just comes into play with how much damage the monster does.
"Banking" your "points" (spending your echos) is a surprisingly cool mechanism in the video game. I wouldn't dismiss that mechanism from the board game so easily. I'm looking forward to playing this!
Tbh I've owned it for a few months and it's a great intro game for or local groups new gamers. The expansion literally doubles the content and it's so much more interesting!
Obviously you have all played more than I have to do your review, but I had not found the game to be particularly random at all. Every game I've played has been the best player winning. Even in 4 or 5 players going late, I would specifically do things like save my transform card to make sure I can play a hunter pistol or ludwig's rifle to still get in on the loot. You know the turn order. You know when you're going to go. And if you absolutely can't get in, you can do what Tom said and just take an upgrade. Yes, sometimes the die screw you over, but its as Tom said, pretty rare. Also, while Zee is very hung up on the 9 point swing being a large part of your total victory score, that is really only possible on the very last turn of the game being that the final boss gives a trophy of each type and if its your last trophy type for the 3 trophies, it will net a lot of points. But you really have to build up to have a turn like that. Personally, I have little issue with the later turns having more weight on your scoring. I thought this was a great game. My personal surprise of Gen Con considering so little was out about it going in and most licensed games have been mediocre for the most part. Also, the dark theme comes from the fact that the video game has deep roots in the Cthulhu mythos. Which is why everything looks so grotesque and horrifying.
I played through all Souls games plus Bloodborne and I consider myself a low skill gamer. I'd give myself a 5 or 6 on 10 in the skill department. But I'm a very patient gamer, though. I guess that's what saved me from insanity :)
Eyal Itsik Never once said the game wasn't about skill, I've platinumed the game for goodness sakes..just saying you could be playing correctly and everything feels in your favor until you're ambushed or you miscalculate a dodge then the game swings to the games favor..how does that apply to a board game? With this system in the board game presented, just saying I think It feels like an appropriate mechanic.
Ok, I've read pretty much ALL the comments on this video so far and I must say people have lost their minds: What is it about this review that has many downright accusing Tom of being a liar and questioning his integrity? I understand disagreeing with a review, but many are going beyond that and insulting Tom, questioning his motives. The game is not even out, so MOST of you are just talking without a base! I'm VERY disappointed, I always considered the DT viewers to be above this type of behavior.
It's just that this specific video generally feels off. Zee's criticisms getting shot down and literally mocked (with Tom and Sam making faces to eachother while he speaks, and him being called a troll for having a different opinion) and generally Tom giving similarly swingy and chaotic games a hard time while giving this one 2 thumbs up. Disappointed by people daring to criticize the critic? Sorry to disappoint :)
See I like Rom the Vacuous and Micolash because the incentivize you to build your deck differently since. Rom, for example, requires you play more defensively and carefully and encourages nasty tricks that hurt your friends to keep them on the back-foot, while Micolash encourages you to plan for the long haul. Also the idea of "skipping" your turn is ludicrous; how you time your returns to the dream by calculating risk/reward is part of the strategy of the game and to me it feels really rewarding when you dodge a lethal blow or grab a hot upgrade before anyone else.
For some reason, it give me the feeling that Tom and Sam like the game just because it is by Eric Lang. They always criticize other games how dark the theme is....
Doma, think about the logic of your statement. Senator is an old game. Games like this one is not out yet, meaning when you review and over hype a game gets a bigger profit when released.
I am just stating that it is NOT true that Tom likes all Eric Lang games, and anyone who says he does, is not speaking the truth or they are misinformed.
I normally like zee's opinion but he is so far off on this one it's crazy. If I tell you on your turn instead of hitting for damage, you get to heal, mitigate damage by halving it, refresh your options of cards to play next turn, and select new equipment, would you say that's "skipping a turn". That my friends is precisely word for word what zee just did with the hunters dream card. And his complaint of swingy is ridiculous. If there is one side that gets to roll again for manatee damage. There is a 1 in 36 chance you will roll more than twice. And a 1 in 216 chance of rolling more than three times. And mind you, the exploding side is usually on 1 damage. So you take a damage and roll to see if there's more. 1 out of 6 times. That's swingy? You can not like a game, but the arguments he makes are flat out factually incorrect. Skipping 1/3 of your turns....smh.
Admittedly, I am a huge Dark Souls and Bloodborne fan. In the video game, if you lose your souls (or echoes), you have a chance to go back to the scene of your death and retrieve them before they are lost forever. That would be a nice feature to build into the card game. I think the mechanics which are criticized in the review video mean more to a video gamer because punishing difficulty is what differentiates the Souls/Bloodborne series from any other video game. It would be disappointing to video gamers if they backed away from that in the card game. There is no middle ground in a Souls/Bloodborne video game ... your choice is that feeling of ultimate despair when you die OR the euphoria of success.
Zee's argument was much more convincing here for me. And I agree, it is a bit weird that Tom and Sam also admits that it is random, but it is not a problem, because "it's only 30 minutes".
It's a risk reward system with banking blood I personally think that system just added to the game in my opinion. You can risk it getting more blood tokens or you can play it safe heal and bank your tokens, and get a new card.
It shouldn't be necessary but, I feel if they knew more about the game some of the mechanics would make more sense. The explosion dice make sense in the game because, even at high levels, low level enemies can kill you if you get sloppy. Technically Bloodborne is not connected to any of the Souls games, be it Dark Souls or Demon's Souls. The same developer did make them all though. I suspect the boss that "just extends the game" is Micolash, Host of the Nightmare. The majority of his fight is chasing him around the level until you can corner him twice. I am not sure who would be two deaths and you are out. Possibly Gehrman, The First Hunter.
I've played Bloodborne a lot on the PS4, and the way they talk about the board game sounds exactly like the PS4 game. You know how many times I died in that game. You know how many times a monster will pop out of the shadows, and kill me in an instant. You know how many times a monster will change it's pattern, and one false move I'm dead. You know how many times a player will screw me over, and I'm thinking they are on my side; Too many times, and that's why I'm going to buy this boardgame. 30min is great for this style of game. It's fine Zee doesn't like it, but I hope he understands that the game is like the video game. They weren't attacking Zee, but their logic, and strategy of the game against Zee's opinion definitely help me to understand the game more, and making me realize that this is like the videogame. All of their opinions are great.
Will definitely try this one. I'm a huge fan of the Souls series and played Bloodborne too and the theme is appealing to me. I don't mind the "swingyness" or the randomness of the game at all. If I want to play a brainburner game, I have a few of these in my collection too. Also, someone mentionned waiting for the Dark Souls boardgame. I don't think these two games have much in common so there's room for the two of them in a collection... unless your bookshelves are already full.
Honestly this is a really fun game and the expansion has added a lot. I wonder if you guys would review that too just to see if Zee has a change of view there. Also, I don't think Zee is necessarily right there because IIRC there's only one, possibly 2 depending on the boss, possible cards in the core that lets you hit for 9 and it's a high risk card that takes several turns (minimum 3) of standing and fighting to get to 9 damage potential which isn't random at all. You don't roll dice to deal damage and this really is a fun game regardless. It's far more predictable if you're paying attention to others plays.
I really enjoyed this game! I've never played the video games, so I don't really care how it represents them (or doesn't). It's very fast, I like the "push your luck" mechanic of banking blood echoes. At the first of the game I didn't want to play the canon or molotov (which damage other players), but by the end I was going cut-throat. We played with 3, and I see it scaling very well since basically everyone plays at the same time. Looking forward to playing again.
I completely agree with Tom and Sam. This game is a blast to play. There is some randomness to it, but there's also a lot of interesting strategies and decisions as well. It's a fun balance and it's a quick game that makes me want play it again. This is on my "to buy list."
I generally like the game but Zee had some solid points. There are 3 things I didn't care for: Last Boss effects- The special effect that the final boss throws over the whole game to twist some rule. "They all make the game less fun in their own way" was my group's consensus. They don't throw a "twist" into things, they each break a vital part of the balancing act. One of them lowers max health and makes the game TOO cautious with people skipping turns with Hunter's Dream way too often. Another heals every turn and moves it too far in the other direction. Endless monster respawning is not fun. Perma death is not fun. NONE OF THE FINAL BOSSES ARE FUN. We tried playing and simply ignoring the persistent final boss effect. Bam, instant more fun. Exploding die- Made the damage way too swingy. This is an awful mechanic to put in what is essentially a press your luck game. You should have a set range to gauge risk, but the risk is always theoretically limitless. You could be at full health and die. This is fine when other players use a combination of cards that really screw people over, but a monster just happening to roll 4 explosions in a row? Those parts suck. First player mechanic- Makes all the difference between getting the final hit on the monster and getting a trophy or getting nothing. Trophies can account for half your final score or more. Getting final hit on the last boss is HUGE as it gives you 3 trophies. Whoever just happens to be close to first player when the final boss gets low has a massive advantage and it's determined by nothing more than luck. There should be some kind of bidding mechanic for first player.
It is based on the board game that is supposed to be unforgiving if you aren't paying attention which I feel Zee should know if he has played Dark Souls.
To all of you who accusing Tom & Sam of bias in favor of Eric Lang, haven't you noticed that other reviewers favor other designers. There is no science of board game reviews, no official criteria, and no correct rating. Yes, I bought TTR purely because Tom gave it a good review and my family played it exactly once. Now I figure that I need to subtract 2 from Tom's ratings and check every other review I can find. Reviewers are just people who are obsessed with games. Don't expect their opinions to always match yours. Of course, if you feel there needs to be more balance, start your own review channel. How hard can it be? Overall, reviewers are providing us great service at no charge. Without them, we'd have to decide on each game based on only what the publishers print on the box.
I feel Zee's points were extremely valid and yet he was shut down too often. And the argument "who cares if it is random it is only 30 minutes" is a weak argument. That 30 minutes can be spent playing a game that isn't random and gives you plenty of choices. Now I have not played this game I'm only basing it off of the video and the points being made. There may be mechanisms in the game that came from the video game but i didn't see them in the overview. But evading is huge in bloodborne and staggering the enemy at the right time to get a critical hit in is as well. I feel if those could have been implemented this game would have more unique choices and strategies.
The random comment you are taking out of context. Zee is saying that the random element in the game can have swingy turns, Tom and Sam are saying its only 30 minutes as in yeah there can be swingy turns but its not like you are investing hours to strategy and then a random element can force you to lose.
If you haven't actually played the game, then I guess it's understandable that you might come to think Zee's points were valid and that Tom and Sam's incredulity was uncalled for. Having played it myself, I would agree with Tom that those points were excessively fussy and nitpicky, making bones about things that aren't really problematic. Going to the dream realm is a calculated move, providing both defense and a scoring opportunity. Revealing you card simultaneously isn't submitting yourself to randomness. It's about reading about your opponents by paying attention to the gear they have. Tom and Sam thought Zee was being unfairly critical, calling a game too random based on something happening to him once in the game, so their reaction was basically "oh, come on".
+Kryzkoopa That's the right of it. There's something of a common sense corollary between how quickly a game plays and how much it incorporates random elements. Game speed slows as players are presented with increasingly complex decisions. So, games that are intended to be fillers are designed with random elements to diminish the weight of decision-making.
This does look like a good game. I don't mind player elimination. Board games don't have to be "everybody gets a trophy" to be good. If the game doesn't last too long anyway, then whoever is eliminated can set up another one or watch the current one for a few minutes. Not a big deal.
Im reading the comments to find anybody mentioning about Tom punching Sam in the forehead at 8:20, but really no one? Am I the only one who watched this 20 times in slow motion, the faces are priceless :D
Zee didn't strike me as the Souls type. He sticks to boardgames that roughly don't go over an hour, but invests in videogames that take up to 50 for a playhtough? I mean, i think it's awesome because the Souls games deserve all the praise they get imo.
Sorry, but Zee is taking into account how perfectly thematic this sounds in accordance to the Souls style video games. This might be added to my collection just from the description alone.
Hi! Good review :) Are there any similar board games to bloodborne where there are mechanics: Card Drafting Dice rolling Hand Management Push your luck Set Collection Simultaneous Action Selection Variable Player Powers Semi-coop?
I feel bad for zee, but stuff like this always happens when more people like something you don't. They gang up on you. Even if they don't mean to. However I too like this game. First off the video game is one of my all time favorites, also dice games go over really well in my house, and the random one monster kills everyone moments makes everyone go nuts and that's fun. So I understand were Zee is coming from I have to go on Tom and Sam's side
its like playing texas holdem, you can play a hand like youve never played any other hand, and then the river comes... and you loose, because the game has that random factor, sometimes luck just isnt on your side, but sometimes it works out for you
Didn't enjoy Tom and Sam shouting down Zee for most of the review. Especially Sam calling into question his opinion at the very end (when Zee couldn't respond).
+Toronto1967 you guys need to watch more reviews/Top-10-list with these 3 cuz you're judging them too harshly: that's their group dynamic *all.the.time*. No big deal.
+John Simmons I'm baffled, did we see the same review? Are we talking about the same people here who interact like this all the time? I think you're just being a troll. :)
The black border looks like these cards are going to get marked fast. Probably a game to sleeve. Is it just me or do these cards look bigger than standard?
I'm usually right in line with Zee's reviews... but man do I disagree with his assessment of this game. I REALLY enjoy this game. excited to play again!
Great review! The best way to explain Dark Souls and BloodBorne to board gamers who are more familiar with retro games it to call it 3-D Castlevania. Not really into the idea of turning a video game into a card game though and while I *love* Dark Souls I'm also not into the theme of BloodBorne.
That bankiing mechanism to me sounds like you are leveling up, like in the video game. Not banking them as I understand it it is high risk high reward right? Haven't played the board game but from what I saw in this video, that must be the deal.
Wait a second there Zee. That card could have easily been drawn by the person with 32 points, making them have 41. Or it could have been drawn earlier to get an early lead. (I assume, having never played before). But more importantly at some previous point on a Top 10, you liked a treasure hunting game where at the end the players randomly pick a spot to search for the treasure and if they found it then they won. It didn't matter if the person in first place had 50 points and the one who found it had 3. The person with 3 points still won. That's not random to you? That's not game breaking? But drawing and playing a 9 point card is? Does that mean getting a 3rd Sashimi or playing a Squid Nigiri on top of the Wasabi in Sushi Goi is also too random?
I agree with Zee. I don't like this level of randomness and I would also argue that the game has nothing to do with Bloodborne outside of a pasted on theme. Having finished the PS4 game twice and spent hundreds of hours in the chalice dungeons (everything offline), I can't remember a single fight where I lost due to something outside of my control. I had to fail multiple times in a fight to die. As for the pasted on theme: Enemies don't fight the way they do in the game nor are items remotely similar. Threaded cane has damage which is on par with hunter axe, hunter pistol does the same damage as saw cleaver. Garden of eyes has over twice the hp of maneater boar and is close to the hp of Ebrietas. I just don't see how this could ever feel like Bloodborne and I could get past the mechanics I find disagreeable if the theme was there, but it isn't.
Meh. I was pretty excited for this game. But it really doesn't look that great. A bluffing card/luck game. The video games reward strategic thinking and thoughtful play. The guy on the left has solid points. A swingy you could die or get a ton of points this turn just based on die rolls, doesn't work for me. Really want to like the game because I love the video game, but I was hoping for something different than what it's turning out to be. We'll see how it turns out.
They really misrepresented the game here. The chances of you dying from constant exploding dice is extremely rare. I was really annoyed with how much they try to make the exploding dice such a threat. This idea that it swings around that often is wrong. Can it happen? Sure. However, the amount of times it did was extremely rare. The hunter's dream where they say you "skip your turn" is wrong. That was such a gross misrepresentation of the actual mechanic. When you take the hunter's dream action you bank the points you've collected, take half damage from the monster, restart your hand, collect your spent cards in your discard pile, heal back up to max HP, and get to choose a new weapon. That's a lot happen from "skipping your turn." With the ruins from the hunter's nightmare expansion as well as new weapons and monsters and a new death mechanic the game is a lot more fun than what they described it as.
Don't agree with zee on his opinion, they clearly designed to game to be swingy so it has a similar feel to the video game. I think the game sounds awesome! And I can't wait to get a copy. Great video anyway. When will it be out in retail?
This game I think will be more for people who are hardcore Souls fans. The concept of just randomly dying for stupid things is part of what makes Bloodborne what it is. You can plan all you want but still die from a monster that you should be able to OHKO
I'll agree, but we'll see if Dice Tower comes in and deletes my comment. Happened twice now when I posted a logical, and non-insulting disagreement, for specified reasons, with a review they posted, or pointed out things they might have missed.
Some of these people are stating information that is not true, and want them to have the facts that indeed Tom has given a bad rating to one of his games. Doesn't each misinformation deserve equal treatment of truth? Or is should it remain unknown or unsaid for all those cases. Is it ok for them to repeat it? Thanks.
Why is there a winner on points?!?!?!?!! Surely this theme would be better done as a co-op so it could be a combat-heavy alternative to LotR LCG rather than Cutthroat Caverns. I think that some people see "Eric Lang" on the box and instantly try to like the game.
Though I must say, that boss that eliminates players is in the spirit of the game. That game is SUPER hard. All those things that they are mad at the game for being too hard, that all perfectly matches how hard the real game is.
"It's only 30 minutes" is such a weak argument. You could use that for so many games that are really, really bad as a positive(?). You can do better than that in defense gents.
Some games are just perfect for filling in while the group gets all together and we can start playing bigger games. This is one such game and it's great for "push your luck" lovers. My gripe with it, is that the gameplay doesn't feel like Bloodborne. Staggering for viscerals (crit hits) and dodging are the two prime mechanics of Bloodborne combat, this game doesn't represent either at all and I feel would have been much better and communicated the "you're alive by the skin of your teeth and here the monsters come again" feel much better.
I have to go fully with Zee on this one... having won a game where you only feel you did so out of luck is a definite "no, no" for me. Sam's "the planets align" comment brought it down even further :). The only thing going for it is 30 minutes... Also not that it matters but the video game requires all skill and no luck... so making a luck based game on that just crashes the theme for me.
Comments in this video show just how far the gaming community has become "board games need to be 100% skill and tactics! No luck ever!" Which is pretty lame. The very basis of games is playing probabilities mixed with random elements. This notion that because a game can be random = bad is asinine. The rise of roguelikes in recent video gaming just show the divide between gamers who absolutely have to control every aspect in games vs. gamers who are able to think outside the box, especially when they're unable to min/max or maximize efficiency every turn. Demoed at Gen Con with a good group, and we had a blast.
I guess many of the negatives of this game (according to Zee) are tying into theme. Yeah, i know skill is number one in these video games, but you can always die when a monster jumps on you out of nowhere and you die a LOT. That's probably what the dice are trying to recreate. Of course this is random. There is no other way to do this other than creating a dexterity game and making you to hit the monster like in Flick'em Up or similar games.
I think to really "get" this game is to play the video game. I think this game looks great and seems to play like the video game. One of Zee's complaints is the monster can kill you in a turn....yeah just like the video game if your not careful you will die to any monster. For me this is a def buy!!
Tom and EricLang are friends. You can't be completely impartial when reviewing a friends games, I don't care what Tom says. He's too close to developers now for me to take his opinion seriously amymore. His bias towards Eric Lang is obvious except on one game (senator) from 7 years ago that no one has ever heard of.
So am I to assume, Tom will pretty much love anything that Eric Lang puts out? Notice how Tom gets super defensive whenever Sam or Zee had one little complaint during the Miami Dice "Blood Rage" review, just like here when Zee has legit qualms over this game. It was pretty damn annoying to tell you the truth. I wish you guys would put aside fanboyism towards designers and give them a free pass. And "It's only 30 minutes" is not a valid argument, sorry. Onto the game, I actually think the "swingy-ness" may work for this game due to how the actual video game can be, so I guess I can agree with that argument. I thought Blood Rage was a good, albeit over-rated, game and I did not see the appeal of Arcadia Quest at all, but seriously Tom I honestly believe your rating is just cause it's designed by your favorite designer, and Sam is only so high cause if the game has dice rolling it gets an automatic 8 no matter the game type.
How is not an argument? "it's only 30 minutes" is a legitimate argument when talking about the acceptable amount of randomness in a game. I don't mind a luckfest it the game is enticing and is short, that's what Tom and Sam are saying.
This review definitely reminded me of their Blood Rage review for the reasons mentioned. I'm really curious to see how they review The Others, another Eric Lang game with a theme that they likely have some issues with. That's almost a lose-lose situation for them - if they praise it, then that's some serious fuel for the crowd to keep saying that TDT is biased; if they're negative on it, then some may think that the likely issues with the theme of The Others gave them an easy way to try to quell the masses.
Obviously The Dice Tower is biased; it's run by humans with opinions! I cannot for the life of me fathom why people look for "objectivity" in reviews, whatever that could possibly mean.
I'll clarify that Yes they are entitled to their own opinions I am not faulting them there. But this game follows a formula of "play a card, something happens" that Tom has said he hates in games, overly random, as well as the overly dark theme of the game which both Sam(who didn't like Sons of Anarchy for the same reason) and Tom also do not like. I feel like it's all well and good because it's an Eric Lang Game. You can love a designer and be passionate, but at the same time stick to your guns and don't yield just cause it's from said designer. Of course this is an assumption, and they could really like the game, then so be it. Also Sam is super quick to call Zee a troll and instantly thinks cause it's a card game and it's only thirty minutes that he should love it. So if Zee hated it, and this his "field," that's saying something because of these two merits. Food for thought I guess. Just my two cents, I love the DT guys and it's ok to disagree with them from time to time. But I'm curious to see their opinions on The Others, another extremely dark Eric Lang game, when it comes out....
I'm surprised that you guys didn't slam the game for being utterly themeless. Having played the game about 5 times now I consider it to have one of the most pasted on themes in recent memory, with nothing at all that corresponds to either the franchise itself nor what people would imagine the franchise to be.
I'll be frank, it's hard for me to take Zee's "it's too random!" comments terribly seriously without a full, in-depth understanding of the rules and with a knowledge of the history of how sore some people can get when they stumble into a trap in a Dark Souls or Bloodborne game, which sounds essentially identical to Zee's commentary. If this is at all a faithful representation of Bloodborne (and I can't say I know that it is at the moment --- perhaps the dice really do push the randomness up to 11), it was likely absolutely avoidable with smart play.
I think people who are giving their opinion should play this game first before agreeing who's right and who's not fair or whatever. You can complain about this video but not the game. Whoever didnt play this game and gave a negative comment, your comments are completely invalid. Ive started to play this game, and so far it's pretty fun, there might be some parts I want improvments, but so far I want to play it more before I give my final review.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
this is a great 30 min push your luck game and i am glad Tom and Sam really liked it.
I think the "skipping turns" is to represent the idea from the video game, where you would have to go back to the Hunter's Dream to spend your blood echoes to level up. When you return to the game world, everything has respawned. In order for the card game to accurately represent the video game itself, it will have to introduce mechanisms that are high risk, high reward... since that is exactly how the video game works. Also, the fact that any enemy can kill you, definitely represents the game well. The video game is very unforgiving and the card game should be as well. Zee should get this if he has played the Souls video games(which are a different world/story). Sounds good to me. Definitely getting this one!
i realize I'm kinda randomly asking but does anybody know of a good site to stream new series online?
@Brycen Victor I watch on FlixZone. Just search on google for it =)
@Remy Alvin yea, have been using flixzone for since march myself :)
@Remy Alvin thank you, I signed up and it seems like they got a lot of movies there :D I really appreciate it !!
@Brycen Victor You are welcome xD
The arguments in this review ROCKED. So fun to watch.
In the world of Bloodborne, the hunters often lose sight of themselves, becoming obsessed with the 'hunt'. In fact, almost all other hunters you meet during the game are actually bosses of their own.
This makes it pretty much perfect for the cutthroat caverns type theming. Nice.
This has been our most played game from gen con. Being so fast and easy to learn is such a bonus. Also easy to get my videogame friends to join at the table. I personally love the dark themed games and this one is solid. Brovo Mr. Lang!!!! Great review guys!!
I don't entirely agree with Zee's opinion, but Tom is way too forgiving on this game's flaws.
He is with every game by Eric Lang...
+Marco Schaub Like Chaos in the Old World?
And this is why I prefer lists/reviews with all three of you :)
Average damage by the monsters varies from 1.2 to 3 points, depending on the die used. The blow out rolls like in Tom's example happen rarely. Having demoed the game for about a dozen plays I only had one case of an instakill. As to Zee getting 9 points on the last round, some of those points come from the trophies, so it's not unusual for you to get a good number of points. In theory, one could get twenty points or more, but it would be very unusual for that to happen.
Zee was so right here. Not only on the weak death mechanism but also on the randomness. Dark Souls and Bloodborne are one of the least random computer games there are. It's all about patterns and patience. Unless it's a bug you will never die in this game because some RNG hit you.
well mostly right,in dark souls monster attacks can be in diffrent styles and patterns per hit and you can get rnged in a boss fight like getting 2 strong attack consecutively.
"Bloodborne [is] one of the least random computer games there are"
...
**points at a collection of chalices**
**points to list of high-level blood gems only obtainable in thee deepest parts of the chalice dungeons by random chance**
I played this at the CMON Expo. Zee is being a little reductive. The simultaneous reveal of a card in your hand isn't random. As Tom pointed out, you are trying to anticipate what other players are going to play. Also, as Tom and Sam pointed out, going into the hunter's dream isn't a wasted turn. It's also a calculated decision, to continue to play aggressively to earn points or make a defensive move and bank them. But yes, it is a card game and therefore driven by luck-of-the-draw. I enjoyed my play.
Tom, and most of The Dice Tower from what I remember, has always held that the amount of randomness acceptable in a game is inversely proportional to the time it takes to play it. They've always felt like the shorter a game is, the more randomness is permissible without ruining the experience.
And heck, Tom doesn't always say that pure random luck is bad in a board game. Look at how much he loves Galaxy Trucker. This game is honestly similar to Libertalia with dice and variable powers, so I'm not surprised that Tom and Sam enjoy it (and I am surprised that Zee was so anti).
Another great review. Again, love that there is differing opinions, it makes our shopping choices easier. Fantastic.
On the one hand, I get loving a game in spite (or because) it's really random. I do that a lot (dice are cool).
But I would never recommend a game that's really random without a huge disclaimer. I get that Tom and Sam like it, but if it's so random, they should acknowledge it and not use the play time to justify it.
Zee's example misrepresents the "swingyness" of the game. He's example in NOT the norm, not even close, it can't be, is simple math.
TheMrE Maybe he got a weird game. But notice how Tom and Sam don't say "it's not so random!", they say "it's only 30 minutes!".
+Malcom Chase I can't defend them for using bad arguments, but Tom did say under his breath when Sam says that (19:30 mark) that he disagrees about the level of randomness in the game.
TheMrE Well, I guess it's Zee's word versus Tom's whispered argument.
I have not played the game, so I can't say which one is right. I can only go from what's on the video.
I've played it. It's no less random than, say, King of Tokyo, while at the same time offering many tactics to mitigate randomness (to a degree which many games like KoT don't).
The love for Eric Lang definitely shows in this review. I'm glad Zee spoke out on his reasons for not liking the game. Both Tom and especially Sam have commented on how much they hate overly dark themes, but give this one a pass? I wont be shocked if they praise "The Others" just cause it's designed by Eric Lang, but is darker than Chaos in The Old World
But Loved Blood Rage, Dice Masters, Arcadia Quest, XCOM, Kaosball, and Quarriors! to my most recent knowledge. He disliked one of his games he made 12 years ago, but Tom's love for Eric Lang spawned about 2 years ago, and has pretty much praised every one of his most recent releases. What is irksome to me, is that Tom has trashed games with the premise of "Play a Card, something happens," and that's exactly what's happening here along with the super randomness of dice. So much randomness it's reminding me of Phase 10, a game Tom despises.
Now listen, I'm not comparing this to the sin known as Phase 10, I'm just saying it feels like there's some leeway being given to this game because it's designed by him. I can be completely wrong, but I wonder if this same exact game had been designed by Stefan Feld or Uwe Rosenberg or Steve Jackson, would they love it just as much. Just my two cents.
Disliking a game from so long ago, that no one else has ever heard of, doesn't count. The point is HOW MUCH he overhypes every Eric Lang game. Blood Rage was boring too.
I was really glad to see Zee's perspective. So far, it's been typical Lang gushing. Nothing about seeing the game has excited me and I keep watching different people talk about it because i thought I must be missing something, It may be a good game, but I appreciate hearing a contrasting opinion during the new game honeymoon period. I also thought it was revealing when Tom rolled 9 damage on his first roll and instantly killed everyone!
I understand, but if you calculate the odds of that happening (3 red exploding dice in a row = 3.7%), is not really that revealing. It just happened that time on camera.
True. It just emphasized the type of randomness I've been moving away from in the bulk of my games.
For the most part, I am a fan of Lang's games (Kaos Ball has been the only one that I was not overly fond of). But since day one, this one has been a pass for me. I cant say why, maybe it is because it is based on a video game that I am not the biggest fan of, but this one wont be on my shelf. I am really looking forward to his upcoming Godfather game though!! :)
I believe that is not the case. It is not that random at all. My guess is that he / u did not understand the game well enough, due to limited playing time with it. The game is really good particularly due to the cunning potentials among players who r supposed to work together or not... Unique interactive game to have fun with, mainly male, friends and a must one for those in love with the DS / BB theme and idea. Well-made as well. A full 8/10 from me, but yet I am a bit subjective being a DS junkie... the randomness mentioned in the video though... sorry I can not see it. At least to the extend mentioned in the vid. : )
Zee is wrong on the skipping a turn thing, which is what made this sound bad for me though. You aren't really skipping a turn by playing Hunter's Dream, you keep yourself from dying, and you build your hand up. Tom was right there. Playing Hunter's Dream does not feel like skipping a turn at all, you just aren't scoring that turn, hoping the monster doesn't die that turn.
Why do ppl keep bringing up the "it's only 30 mins" argument as a bad argument? It's validity aside, it was brought up, like, twice out of many other positive things Sam and Tom mentioned.
And like Sam, I too am surprised Zee didn't like it.
I hope they get around to try this with the new expansion "The Hunter’s Nightmare"
I enjoyed it from the start, but I think it made the game even more solid, I especially like the Death tokens that "block" spots on your trophy track every time you die.
I played this recently, and didn't remember this review, but was skeptical, because, you know video game IP card game. I was pleasantly surprised and found myself making the same arguments in my head defending the game that Tom and Sam were before they did. I think the combination of the hand-building, press your luck and out-guessing your opponents makes for a really good time that outweighs the randomness which mostly just comes into play with how much damage the monster does.
My friend Denethor bought this game. I wasn't sure if I liked it, but now that I see that Tom does, it's definitely a winner for me.
"Banking" your "points" (spending your echos) is a surprisingly cool mechanism in the video game. I wouldn't dismiss that mechanism from the board game so easily. I'm looking forward to playing this!
Tbh I've owned it for a few months and it's a great intro game for or local groups new gamers. The expansion literally doubles the content and it's so much more interesting!
Obviously you have all played more than I have to do your review, but I had not found the game to be particularly random at all. Every game I've played has been the best player winning. Even in 4 or 5 players going late, I would specifically do things like save my transform card to make sure I can play a hunter pistol or ludwig's rifle to still get in on the loot. You know the turn order. You know when you're going to go. And if you absolutely can't get in, you can do what Tom said and just take an upgrade. Yes, sometimes the die screw you over, but its as Tom said, pretty rare.
Also, while Zee is very hung up on the 9 point swing being a large part of your total victory score, that is really only possible on the very last turn of the game being that the final boss gives a trophy of each type and if its your last trophy type for the 3 trophies, it will net a lot of points. But you really have to build up to have a turn like that. Personally, I have little issue with the later turns having more weight on your scoring.
I thought this was a great game. My personal surprise of Gen Con considering so little was out about it going in and most licensed games have been mediocre for the most part. Also, the dark theme comes from the fact that the video game has deep roots in the Cthulhu mythos. Which is why everything looks so grotesque and horrifying.
Thanks for the review, guys!
Thanks Zee!!
The "swingy" feel fits well because the actual game can swing very quickly. I'm sure they designed it with that in mind.
Hell no. This game series is all about skill. If you play well, there's zero luck involved.
The video game is extremely swingy. It punishes mistakes like no other. Swingyness doesn't imply randomness.
I played through all Souls games plus Bloodborne and I consider myself a low skill gamer. I'd give myself a 5 or 6 on 10 in the skill department. But I'm a very patient gamer, though. I guess that's what saved me from insanity :)
Eyal Itsik Never once said the game wasn't about skill, I've platinumed the game for goodness sakes..just saying you could be playing correctly and everything feels in your favor until you're ambushed or you miscalculate a dodge then the game swings to the games favor..how does that apply to a board game? With this system in the board game presented, just saying I think It feels like an appropriate mechanic.
Ok, I've read pretty much ALL the comments on this video so far and I must say people have lost their minds: What is it about this review that has many downright accusing Tom of being a liar and questioning his integrity? I understand disagreeing with a review, but many are going beyond that and insulting Tom, questioning his motives. The game is not even out, so MOST of you are just talking without a base! I'm VERY disappointed, I always considered the DT viewers to be above this type of behavior.
It's just that this specific video generally feels off.
Zee's criticisms getting shot down and literally mocked (with Tom and Sam making faces to eachother while he speaks, and him being called a troll for having a different opinion) and generally Tom giving similarly swingy and chaotic games a hard time while giving this one 2 thumbs up.
Disappointed by people daring to criticize the critic? Sorry to disappoint :)
+Eyal Itsik Tom's business in the dice tower is getting in the way of impartial reviews and his integrity is definitely compromised.
I agree with Connie. And I also think if he's friends with the designer he shouldn't review the game. Leave the review to Zee.
Tom, Sam, and Zee should only review games on Miami Dice that they disagree on. Great video.
See I like Rom the Vacuous and Micolash because the incentivize you to build your deck differently since. Rom, for example, requires you play more defensively and carefully and encourages nasty tricks that hurt your friends to keep them on the back-foot, while Micolash encourages you to plan for the long haul. Also the idea of "skipping" your turn is ludicrous; how you time your returns to the dream by calculating risk/reward is part of the strategy of the game and to me it feels really rewarding when you dodge a lethal blow or grab a hot upgrade before anyone else.
For some reason, it give me the feeling that Tom and Sam like the game just because it is by Eric Lang. They always criticize other games how dark the theme is....
Tom dislikes Eric Lang's game, Senator.
Doma, think about the logic of your statement. Senator is an old game. Games like this one is not out yet, meaning when you review and over hype a game gets a bigger profit when released.
I am just stating that it is NOT true that Tom likes all Eric Lang games, and anyone who says he does, is not speaking the truth or they are misinformed.
I'm not sold on it, seems like there's so much more you could do with it.
I'll just wait for Dark Souls to come out.
I normally like zee's opinion but he is so far off on this one it's crazy. If I tell you on your turn instead of hitting for damage, you get to heal, mitigate damage by halving it, refresh your options of cards to play next turn, and select new equipment, would you say that's "skipping a turn". That my friends is precisely word for word what zee just did with the hunters dream card. And his complaint of swingy is ridiculous. If there is one side that gets to roll again for manatee damage. There is a 1 in 36 chance you will roll more than twice. And a 1 in 216 chance of rolling more than three times. And mind you, the exploding side is usually on 1 damage. So you take a damage and roll to see if there's more. 1 out of 6 times. That's swingy?
You can not like a game, but the arguments he makes are flat out factually incorrect. Skipping 1/3 of your turns....smh.
I don't think Zee understands this one haha...it's like playing that card in Mission Red Planet. Must disagree, loved my first play of this game.
As Tom said...everybody dying is fun!
Admittedly, I am a huge Dark Souls and Bloodborne fan. In the video game, if you lose your souls (or echoes), you have a chance to go back to the scene of your death and retrieve them before they are lost forever. That would be a nice feature to build into the card game. I think the mechanics which are criticized in the review video mean more to a video gamer because punishing difficulty is what differentiates the Souls/Bloodborne series from any other video game. It would be disappointing to video gamers if they backed away from that in the card game. There is no middle ground in a Souls/Bloodborne video game ... your choice is that feeling of ultimate despair when you die OR the euphoria of success.
when it comes to card games no better opinion than zee
Zee's argument was much more convincing here for me. And I agree, it is a bit weird that Tom and Sam also admits that it is random, but it is not a problem, because "it's only 30 minutes".
It's a risk reward system with banking blood I personally think that system just added to the game in my opinion. You can risk it getting more blood tokens or you can play it safe heal and bank your tokens, and get a new card.
It shouldn't be necessary but, I feel if they knew more about the game some of the mechanics would make more sense. The explosion dice make sense in the game because, even at high levels, low level enemies can kill you if you get sloppy.
Technically Bloodborne is not connected to any of the Souls games, be it Dark Souls or Demon's Souls. The same developer did make them all though.
I suspect the boss that "just extends the game" is Micolash, Host of the Nightmare. The majority of his fight is chasing him around the level until you can corner him twice. I am not sure who would be two deaths and you are out. Possibly Gehrman, The First Hunter.
I've played Bloodborne a lot on the PS4, and the way they talk about the board game sounds exactly like the PS4 game.
You know how many times I died in that game. You know how many times a monster will pop out of the shadows, and kill me in an instant. You know how many times a monster will change it's pattern, and one false move I'm dead. You know how many times a player will screw me over, and I'm thinking they are on my side; Too many times, and that's why I'm going to buy this boardgame. 30min is great for this style of game.
It's fine Zee doesn't like it, but I hope he understands that the game is like the video game. They weren't attacking Zee, but their logic, and strategy of the game against Zee's opinion definitely help me to understand the game more, and making me realize that this is like the videogame.
All of their opinions are great.
I love Zee's cynical perspective. I would watch a series of Zee talking about games that don't work, for one reason or another.
Can't wait to get my hands on this game! Loved the video game.
Will definitely try this one. I'm a huge fan of the Souls series and played Bloodborne too and the theme is appealing to me. I don't mind the "swingyness" or the randomness of the game at all. If I want to play a brainburner game, I have a few of these in my collection too.
Also, someone mentionned waiting for the Dark Souls boardgame. I don't think these two games have much in common so there's room for the two of them in a collection... unless your bookshelves are already full.
Honestly this is a really fun game and the expansion has added a lot. I wonder if you guys would review that too just to see if Zee has a change of view there. Also, I don't think Zee is necessarily right there because IIRC there's only one, possibly 2 depending on the boss, possible cards in the core that lets you hit for 9 and it's a high risk card that takes several turns (minimum 3) of standing and fighting to get to 9 damage potential which isn't random at all. You don't roll dice to deal damage and this really is a fun game regardless. It's far more predictable if you're paying attention to others plays.
I really enjoyed this game! I've never played the video games, so I don't really care how it represents them (or doesn't). It's very fast, I like the "push your luck" mechanic of banking blood echoes. At the first of the game I didn't want to play the canon or molotov (which damage other players), but by the end I was going cut-throat. We played with 3, and I see it scaling very well since basically everyone plays at the same time. Looking forward to playing again.
I completely agree with Tom and Sam. This game is a blast to play. There is some randomness to it, but there's also a lot of interesting strategies and decisions as well. It's a fun balance and it's a quick game that makes me want play it again. This is on my "to buy list."
I generally like the game but Zee had some solid points. There are 3 things I didn't care for:
Last Boss effects- The special effect that the final boss throws over the whole game to twist some rule. "They all make the game less fun in their own way" was my group's consensus. They don't throw a "twist" into things, they each break a vital part of the balancing act. One of them lowers max health and makes the game TOO cautious with people skipping turns with Hunter's Dream way too often. Another heals every turn and moves it too far in the other direction. Endless monster respawning is not fun. Perma death is not fun. NONE OF THE FINAL BOSSES ARE FUN. We tried playing and simply ignoring the persistent final boss effect. Bam, instant more fun.
Exploding die- Made the damage way too swingy. This is an awful mechanic to put in what is essentially a press your luck game. You should have a set range to gauge risk, but the risk is always theoretically limitless. You could be at full health and die. This is fine when other players use a combination of cards that really screw people over, but a monster just happening to roll 4 explosions in a row? Those parts suck.
First player mechanic- Makes all the difference between getting the final hit on the monster and getting a trophy or getting nothing. Trophies can account for half your final score or more. Getting final hit on the last boss is HUGE as it gives you 3 trophies. Whoever just happens to be close to first player when the final boss gets low has a massive advantage and it's determined by nothing more than luck. There should be some kind of bidding mechanic for first player.
It is based on the board game that is supposed to be unforgiving if you aren't paying attention which I feel Zee should know if he has played Dark Souls.
To all of you who accusing Tom & Sam of bias in favor of Eric Lang, haven't you noticed that other reviewers favor other designers. There is no science of board game reviews, no official criteria, and no correct rating. Yes, I bought TTR purely because Tom gave it a good review and my family played it exactly once. Now I figure that I need to subtract 2 from Tom's ratings and check every other review I can find. Reviewers are just people who are obsessed with games. Don't expect their opinions to always match yours. Of course, if you feel there needs to be more balance, start your own review channel. How hard can it be? Overall, reviewers are providing us great service at no charge. Without them, we'd have to decide on each game based on only what the publishers print on the box.
I don't think Zee is being a troll, I just think he didn't let the name of the designer cloud his judgement.
I feel Zee's points were extremely valid and yet he was shut down too often. And the argument "who cares if it is random it is only 30 minutes" is a weak argument. That 30 minutes can be spent playing a game that isn't random and gives you plenty of choices. Now I have not played this game I'm only basing it off of the video and the points being made. There may be mechanisms in the game that came from the video game but i didn't see them in the overview. But evading is huge in bloodborne and staggering the enemy at the right time to get a critical hit in is as well. I feel if those could have been implemented this game would have more unique choices and strategies.
To be fair most of Sam's opinion's are built on weak arguments and an unwillingness to see other people's perspectives.
+malonshammer lol
The random comment you are taking out of context. Zee is saying that the random element in the game can have swingy turns, Tom and Sam are saying its only 30 minutes as in yeah there can be swingy turns but its not like you are investing hours to strategy and then a random element can force you to lose.
If you haven't actually played the game, then I guess it's understandable that you might come to think Zee's points were valid and that Tom and Sam's incredulity was uncalled for. Having played it myself, I would agree with Tom that those points were excessively fussy and nitpicky, making bones about things that aren't really problematic. Going to the dream realm is a calculated move, providing both defense and a scoring opportunity. Revealing you card simultaneously isn't submitting yourself to randomness. It's about reading about your opponents by paying attention to the gear they have.
Tom and Sam thought Zee was being unfairly critical, calling a game too random based on something happening to him once in the game, so their reaction was basically "oh, come on".
+Kryzkoopa That's the right of it. There's something of a common sense corollary between how quickly a game plays and how much it incorporates random elements. Game speed slows as players are presented with increasingly complex decisions. So, games that are intended to be fillers are designed with random elements to diminish the weight of decision-making.
Sam's introduction will soon be in need of SFX
This does look like a good game. I don't mind player elimination. Board games don't have to be "everybody gets a trophy" to be good. If the game doesn't last too long anyway, then whoever is eliminated can set up another one or watch the current one for a few minutes. Not a big deal.
Im reading the comments to find anybody mentioning about Tom punching Sam in the forehead at 8:20, but really no one? Am I the only one who watched this 20 times in slow motion, the faces are priceless :D
Zee didn't strike me as the Souls type. He sticks to boardgames that roughly don't go over an hour, but invests in videogames that take up to 50 for a playhtough? I mean, i think it's awesome because the Souls games deserve all the praise they get imo.
Sorry, but Zee is taking into account how perfectly thematic this sounds in accordance to the Souls style video games. This might be added to my collection just from the description alone.
Hi! Good review :) Are there any similar board games to bloodborne where there are mechanics: Card Drafting
Dice rolling
Hand Management
Push your luck
Set Collection
Simultaneous Action Selection
Variable Player Powers
Semi-coop?
I feel bad for zee, but stuff like this always happens when more people like something you don't. They gang up on you. Even if they don't mean to. However I too like this game. First off the video game is one of my all time favorites, also dice games go over really well in my house, and the random one monster kills everyone moments makes everyone go nuts and that's fun. So I understand were Zee is coming from I have to go on Tom and Sam's side
its like playing texas holdem, you can play a hand like youve never played any other hand, and then the river comes... and you loose, because the game has that random factor, sometimes luck just isnt on your side, but sometimes it works out for you
I like how you can remember all weapons that others have and they are conditional not sup
Didn't enjoy Tom and Sam shouting down Zee for most of the review. Especially Sam calling into question his opinion at the very end (when Zee couldn't respond).
+Toronto1967 you guys need to watch more reviews/Top-10-list with these 3 cuz you're judging them too harshly: that's their group dynamic *all.the.time*. No big deal.
I love their stuff, just thought they weren't even letting Zee speak for most of this one.
I'm fine when they're mean to each other but not letting somebody talk is a bit too much for me
I love TDT, just giving them a hard time, gotta keep em honest, lol. Little criticism now and then is good for them :P
+John Simmons I'm baffled, did we see the same review? Are we talking about the same people here who interact like this all the time? I think you're just being a troll. :)
The black border looks like these cards are going to get marked fast. Probably a game to sleeve. Is it just me or do these cards look bigger than standard?
I'm usually right in line with Zee's reviews... but man do I disagree with his assessment of this game. I REALLY enjoy this game. excited to play again!
Replaces Cutthroat Caverns for Tom? That's pure insanity. There's much more variability and more to do in Cutthroat Caverns.
good review, thanks!
Ugh so sick of seeing people in the comments trying to stir up drama
Looks like this type of game is really split between opinions. I guess it's just a perspective thing. Can't wait to try it out though! :)
Yup, just makes it a try before you buy kind of game for me.
Great review! The best way to explain Dark Souls and BloodBorne to board gamers who are more familiar with retro games it to call it 3-D Castlevania. Not really into the idea of turning a video game into a card game though and while I *love* Dark Souls I'm also not into the theme of BloodBorne.
That bankiing mechanism to me sounds like you are leveling up, like in the video game. Not banking them as I understand it it is high risk high reward right? Haven't played the board game but from what I saw in this video, that must be the deal.
Wait a second there Zee. That card could have easily been drawn by the person with 32 points, making them have 41. Or it could have been drawn earlier to get an early lead. (I assume, having never played before).
But more importantly at some previous point on a Top 10, you liked a treasure hunting game where at the end the players randomly pick a spot to search for the treasure and if they found it then they won. It didn't matter if the person in first place had 50 points and the one who found it had 3. The person with 3 points still won.
That's not random to you? That's not game breaking? But drawing and playing a 9 point card is?
Does that mean getting a 3rd Sashimi or playing a Squid Nigiri on top of the Wasabi in Sushi Goi is also too random?
Great review and banter. I don't think Zee was hushed although I think I agree with him.
Zee's comments reflect similar problems in Blood Rage, another Eric Lang design. You can get gazillion points in relative term just by one card.
I agree with Zee. I don't like this level of randomness and I would also argue that the game has nothing to do with Bloodborne outside of a pasted on theme.
Having finished the PS4 game twice and spent hundreds of hours in the chalice dungeons (everything offline), I can't remember a single fight where I lost due to something outside of my control. I had to fail multiple times in a fight to die.
As for the pasted on theme: Enemies don't fight the way they do in the game nor are items remotely similar. Threaded cane has damage which is on par with hunter axe, hunter pistol does the same damage as saw cleaver. Garden of eyes has over twice the hp of maneater boar and is close to the hp of Ebrietas.
I just don't see how this could ever feel like Bloodborne and I could get past the mechanics I find disagreeable if the theme was there, but it isn't.
Bloodborne is one of my favorite games on PS4, shame this card game doesn't sound that great tbh. I like Tom's enthusiasm though.
Meh. I was pretty excited for this game. But it really doesn't look that great. A bluffing card/luck game. The video games reward strategic thinking and thoughtful play. The guy on the left has solid points. A swingy you could die or get a ton of points this turn just based on die rolls, doesn't work for me.
Really want to like the game because I love the video game, but I was hoping for something different than what it's turning out to be. We'll see how it turns out.
They really misrepresented the game here. The chances of you dying from constant exploding dice is extremely rare. I was really annoyed with how much they try to make the exploding dice such a threat. This idea that it swings around that often is wrong. Can it happen? Sure. However, the amount of times it did was extremely rare. The hunter's dream where they say you "skip your turn" is wrong. That was such a gross misrepresentation of the actual mechanic. When you take the hunter's dream action you bank the points you've collected, take half damage from the monster, restart your hand, collect your spent cards in your discard pile, heal back up to max HP, and get to choose a new weapon. That's a lot happen from "skipping your turn." With the ruins from the hunter's nightmare expansion as well as new weapons and monsters and a new death mechanic the game is a lot more fun than what they described it as.
Don't agree with zee on his opinion, they clearly designed to game to be swingy so it has a similar feel to the video game. I think the game sounds awesome! And I can't wait to get a copy. Great video anyway. When will it be out in retail?
This game I think will be more for people who are hardcore Souls fans. The concept of just randomly dying for stupid things is part of what makes Bloodborne what it is. You can plan all you want but still die from a monster that you should be able to OHKO
The press your luck element has always been a running theme in the "souls" series. I'm not a fan of the burst dice damage though.
Zee vs. fanboys is not fun to watch. Calling him a troll was a bit much. Zee is pretty much the only decent reviewer on the channel. Love him.
this review has too much eric lang love bias from Tom, Zee really felt like the most true reviewer on this.
I'll agree, but we'll see if Dice Tower comes in and deletes my comment. Happened twice now when I posted a logical, and non-insulting disagreement, for specified reasons, with a review they posted, or pointed out things they might have missed.
Some of these people are stating information that is not true, and want them to have the facts that indeed Tom has given a bad rating to one of his games. Doesn't each misinformation deserve equal treatment of truth? Or is should it remain unknown or unsaid for all those cases. Is it ok for them to repeat it? Thanks.
Is this game a "take that" style of game? They mentioned Cutthroat Caverns; ive never played that, but seems rather 'take thatish' from what ive seen.
Why is there a winner on points?!?!?!?!!
Surely this theme would be better done as a co-op so it could be a combat-heavy alternative to LotR LCG rather than Cutthroat Caverns.
I think that some people see "Eric Lang" on the box and instantly try to like the game.
I understand that Zee does not like the game, it's ok. But i think he did not understand how to play it and whats the point of the game..
Wow my inter souls fan hurts when I hear Tom compare Bloodborne to FPS games xD
Though I must say, that boss that eliminates players is in the spirit of the game. That game is SUPER hard. All those things that they are mad at the game for being too hard, that all perfectly matches how hard the real game is.
is it me, or does something weird happen with the lighting near the start of the talk through?
I agree on some points with Zee and I agree on others with Tom and Sam.
"It's only 30 minutes" is such a weak argument. You could use that for so many games that are really, really bad as a positive(?). You can do better than that in defense gents.
Some games are just perfect for filling in while the group gets all together and we can start playing bigger games. This is one such game and it's great for "push your luck" lovers.
My gripe with it, is that the gameplay doesn't feel like Bloodborne. Staggering for viscerals (crit hits) and dodging are the two prime mechanics of Bloodborne combat, this game doesn't represent either at all and I feel would have been much better and communicated the "you're alive by the skin of your teeth and here the monsters come again" feel much better.
randomness really does matter less in a shorter game though.
I have to go fully with Zee on this one... having won a game where you only feel you did so out of luck is a definite "no, no" for me. Sam's "the planets align" comment brought it down even further :). The only thing going for it is 30 minutes...
Also not that it matters but the video game requires all skill and no luck... so making a luck based game on that just crashes the theme for me.
My ONLY critique of the game is that they used in game models for the art instead of something more concept art-y
Comments in this video show just how far the gaming community has become "board games need to be 100% skill and tactics! No luck ever!" Which is pretty lame. The very basis of games is playing probabilities mixed with random elements. This notion that because a game can be random = bad is asinine. The rise of roguelikes in recent video gaming just show the divide between gamers who absolutely have to control every aspect in games vs. gamers who are able to think outside the box, especially when they're unable to min/max or maximize efficiency every turn.
Demoed at Gen Con with a good group, and we had a blast.
I guess many of the negatives of this game (according to Zee) are tying into theme. Yeah, i know skill is number one in these video games, but you can always die when a monster jumps on you out of nowhere and you die a LOT. That's probably what the dice are trying to recreate. Of course this is random. There is no other way to do this other than creating a dexterity game and making you to hit the monster like in Flick'em Up or similar games.
So what's up with the latest video credits ignoring Zee?
I think to really "get" this game is to play the video game. I think this game looks great and seems to play like the video game. One of Zee's complaints is the monster can kill you in a turn....yeah just like the video game if your not careful you will die to any monster. For me this is a def buy!!
Tom and EricLang are friends. You can't be completely impartial when reviewing a friends games, I don't care what Tom says. He's too close to developers now for me to take his opinion seriously amymore. His bias towards Eric Lang is obvious except on one game (senator) from 7 years ago that no one has ever heard of.
The exploding dice was a terrible idea. Everything else seems pretty good
I just don't see what people like about Eric Lang so much. His games feel cold and corporate to me.
So am I to assume, Tom will pretty much love anything that Eric Lang puts out? Notice how Tom gets super defensive whenever Sam or Zee had one little complaint during the Miami Dice "Blood Rage" review, just like here when Zee has legit qualms over this game. It was pretty damn annoying to tell you the truth. I wish you guys would put aside fanboyism towards designers and give them a free pass. And "It's only 30 minutes" is not a valid argument, sorry.
Onto the game, I actually think the "swingy-ness" may work for this game due to how the actual video game can be, so I guess I can agree with that argument. I thought Blood Rage was a good, albeit over-rated, game and I did not see the appeal of Arcadia Quest at all, but seriously Tom I honestly believe your rating is just cause it's designed by your favorite designer, and Sam is only so high cause if the game has dice rolling it gets an automatic 8 no matter the game type.
How is not an argument? "it's only 30 minutes" is a legitimate argument when talking about the acceptable amount of randomness in a game. I don't mind a luckfest it the game is enticing and is short, that's what Tom and Sam are saying.
This review definitely reminded me of their Blood Rage review for the reasons mentioned. I'm really curious to see how they review The Others, another Eric Lang game with a theme that they likely have some issues with. That's almost a lose-lose situation for them - if they praise it, then that's some serious fuel for the crowd to keep saying that TDT is biased; if they're negative on it, then some may think that the likely issues with the theme of The Others gave them an easy way to try to quell the masses.
Obviously The Dice Tower is biased; it's run by humans with opinions! I cannot for the life of me fathom why people look for "objectivity" in reviews, whatever that could possibly mean.
I'll clarify that Yes they are entitled to their own opinions I am not faulting them there. But this game follows a formula of "play a card, something happens" that Tom has said he hates in games, overly random, as well as the overly dark theme of the game which both Sam(who didn't like Sons of Anarchy for the same reason) and Tom also do not like. I feel like it's all well and good because it's an Eric Lang Game. You can love a designer and be passionate, but at the same time stick to your guns and don't yield just cause it's from said designer. Of course this is an assumption, and they could really like the game, then so be it.
Also Sam is super quick to call Zee a troll and instantly thinks cause it's a card game and it's only thirty minutes that he should love it. So if Zee hated it, and this his "field," that's saying something because of these two merits. Food for thought I guess.
Just my two cents, I love the DT guys and it's ok to disagree with them from time to time. But I'm curious to see their opinions on The Others, another extremely dark Eric Lang game, when it comes out....
Toms rating of the game Senator (2004), Designer Eric Lang is 4/10
I'm surprised that you guys didn't slam the game for being utterly themeless. Having played the game about 5 times now I consider it to have one of the most pasted on themes in recent memory, with nothing at all that corresponds to either the franchise itself nor what people would imagine the franchise to be.
Khift except the death mechanism that is pulled straight from the game and the hunters dream. There are many critiques but this is a nonargument
And Sam, when has Zee ever loved random games for it to be his thing? :D
I'll be frank, it's hard for me to take Zee's "it's too random!" comments terribly seriously without a full, in-depth understanding of the rules and with a knowledge of the history of how sore some people can get when they stumble into a trap in a Dark Souls or Bloodborne game, which sounds essentially identical to Zee's commentary. If this is at all a faithful representation of Bloodborne (and I can't say I know that it is at the moment --- perhaps the dice really do push the randomness up to 11), it was likely absolutely avoidable with smart play.
I think people who are giving their opinion should play this game first before agreeing who's right and who's not fair or whatever.
You can complain about this video but not the game. Whoever didnt play this game and gave a negative comment, your comments are completely invalid.
Ive started to play this game, and so far it's pretty fun, there might be some parts I want improvments, but so far I want to play it more before I give my final review.
First time playing the game tonight. I agree with nearly every point that Zee made. This one definitely missed the mark for me.
wow do they have comic books