Ep. 2 | The Diana Wars - Part One
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- King Charles is on the throne with Camilla by his side, and The Crown has returned to Netflix amid a storm of controversy about dramatising recent history.
Phil knows more than most about Diana’s life and marriage. Having run a large TV production team that produced an unusually well-sourced biography of the Princess, widely praised for its intelligence and objectivity, he’s spent over two decades learning about this subject, and de-constructing the real story of briefing and counter briefing that lies behind much of what we think we know about her and her life.
Andrew, who is no slouch when it comes to royal scandals and the dark arts of royal biography, interrogates Phil and puts his theories to the test.
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I do not find Diana's capacity for fantastic public work, and her great personal charm, cause to dismiss her obsessive and destructive behaviour. A person can be both: charming & high achiever in public, irrational in private. People are not one dimensional.
The bulimia warped her brain chemistry and must have been hard for Charles to deal with. My late step-monster told us so many lies about her past and family. Personality disorders do that. It's pretty obvious Diana wanted the separation and on her terms.
Many with mental issues can appear to function “normally”, depending on the diagnosis and a range of other factors. Diana seemed addicted to media attention, and actively sought it. Briefing about her MH does seem cruel, but it may have been what Charles genuinely felt, and experienced with her.
He couldn’t really be expected to be passive in the face of the overwhelming media she attracted, whilst she briefed against him. Love the podcast. 😊
Well her literal job was seeking media attention, and her success at it was one - and only one - reason that Charles felt resentful of her, as so many insiders from the 80s would say and have said
Phil's book was one of the first Diana books I read and it was terrific. I am beginning to think that the only royal who has ever been faithful in marriage was Catherine of Aragon.
Thanks so much
Very interesting to listen to Diana being a normal young lady and not as portrayed as the 'virgin bride'. Much more humanising.
It's really how all of her friends and family remembered her Nicola
Just ordered your book! Thank you! Also, could you please identify the episode with Patrick Jephson? I can't seem to find it on your channel. Diana may or may not have had BPD but bulimia is in itself a very serious impulse disorder often associated with BPD. And it would not have affected her trustworthiness around a young child, so Mrs Robertson's kind defense doesn't really change anything. She loved Diana and was invited to the engagement party at BP where it sounds like she was a bit overwhelmed by the atmosphere - mentions the reception line with the Queen seeming "distant" - Prince Philip's flirtyness with attractive females - not exactly shocking in this company but not, perhaps, what these kindly, very conservative Americans were used to.
Thanks!! Patrick is in episode 3 - the Diana part two 😊
Thanks for this. This is the most level-headed conversation about Diana and Charles I’ve ever heard.
Much appreciated! Please spread the word if you can
@@philmcraig I will!
Diana was such a lovely down to earth person. She was buying some luggage in a London shop, my friend worked. My friend was serving her and said ' Has anyone told you that you look just like Princess Diana?' Her reply was? 'Why do you say that?' My friend replied 'You just do, you look just like her.' Diana's reply was ' I look much better then Princess Diana' she laughed and then left the shop.
funny to wonder is she purchased things on her American Express Platinum with her name on it ??!!!!
With Diana, and with Jessica Mitford who also talked about how unhappy she felt as a child, I wonder if it was more that something was missing and they didn't know what, and all their gifts and advantages (beauty, money, sensitivity) didn't make up for that. They both seemed to seek out causes and try and help others to provide them with a direction in life.
A lot of truth in that I think, Rebecca. Thanks for watching!
@@philmcraig wasn't it mostly about the explosive fights her parents were having that Diana heard while lurking around that huge estate eavesdropping?
The single most important driver of Diana’s behaviour & response to the slurs cast against her mental health was her fear of losing custody of her sons. She came out fighting as a Mother, desperate to protect her relationship with her boys. If she exaggerated in Morton’s book it was retaliation against these slurs. I thought so then, & I think so now.
she, like PH , wanted to move to the US to get away, but was afraid of losing her boys
A year on after this podcast, Charles Spencer has published his own memoir which, other than his appalling experiences at boarding school, focussed upon the misery of his childhood family life, and that of Diana. Interesting.
I know a lot of people who won't forgive King Charles for what he did to Diana. Diana must have been in a world of pain by virtue of being used by the man she loved. Then it was in the media and argued and misinterpreted. Thank you for being balanced - she deserves that.
I really think she does
Diana also was well aware of the slurs cast against her own Mother during the divorce proceedings between her parents & of the role her Mother’s Mother had taken in casting some of the worst of them. She knew just how bad it could get & small wonder if she was suspicious of the motives of everyone around her.
Agreed. Good point.
You two are the best. I am hooked. Thank you ❤
Thank so much Sandra!
He had refused to marry the woman who loved him. Years went by, she gave up on him, married someone else. Then he became interested in her again, but at that time, he was forbidden to marry a divorced person. So, under pressure from the family to marry, he looked around & settled on Diana after being acquainted for two weeks. She still a teenager, and as I recall, some family friend publicly came forward to vouch for her never having had a serious boyfriend and being a virgin, and at least in the American press, rumors that she'd been required to verify this by submitting to a doctor's internal exam. Young women around the world felt absolutely mortified for her. Then came their engagement press conference, during which he would not say he was in love. Right there in front of her and the whole world. If memory serves, he said something to the effect of, 'What is love, really?' or 'Does anyone really know what love is?' What an insufferable jerk.
Does he or anyone claim to have been frank with her & her advisors before the marriage, to have actually made it plain to her that what was being offered was a position and only a sham marriage for children?
Lastly, I read something to the effect that in her last months and/or years, she told her brother that she needed home & safety and asked permission to come live at Althorp, the Spencer family estate. He refused her. She could not stay with him because he did not have enough space, there were no other available residences on the estate, and it was then inconvenient to build something for her elsewhere on the estate. So near the end, she was worried about where she would live. She had no home.
Camilla’s true love was Andrew Parker Bowles. She was happy with him and didn’t even want to divorce him but the scandal broke.
Nobody expected Charles to be a virgin, but the Queen demanded that he marry one. When a man leaves off marriage until aged 32 years, age appropriate virgins are near impossible to find. The sainted Queen knew Charles was banging Camilla. Prince Philip knew Charles was banging Camilla. His family knew. His friends knew. Andrew Parker Bowles knew Charles was banging Camilla. Who didn't know ? Oh yeah, DIANA . That poor girl thought she was getting a marriage. She was indisputably a casualty of their "System" .
Thank you so much. I found Mr. Craig's book. You Gentlemen are quite unique and wonderful.
Really pleased you sought it out. Thanks
The custody of she & her brother was awarded to their Father at a young age & her Mother albeit disappeared from her life at that point. It ruptured the relationship which never recovered & she would do whatever it took to prevent that happening again.
Re where would Camilla go? How about abuse of women?? Camilla is definitely going into controversial territory. Catherine has focussed upon what children and mothers truly need for early childhood, an area where there is so much lack of support, dysfunction and misery. Again, a really difficult area. By dismissing Camilla and Catherine, you are possibly overlooking the importance of women's issues, real things happening in the UK. Instead of more glamorous international cayses like AIDS & land mines. The role of British RF is to care about British folk, especially the poor and suffering. I admire Catherine and Camilla so much because they get on with it, without making it all about me, me, me.
yes, QE2 and PP had fought until they came up with their pact/arrangement...PP tried to advise PD to accept it, but she just got more upset
Absolutely Outstanding, loved this episode 🙏🙏🙏. RF didn’t want change. This is the way we do it… this is the way we have always done it…. it’s surprising the monarchy has lasted this long
Thanks Jane!
Many many years ago when I was studying History at uni and wanted to write a paper on a 10 year old event in Canadian history, my professor told me that, in analyzing historical events, a longer perspective was needed before things could be viewed in a truly “historical” perspective. Of course that was in the days before in-depth, on-the-ground journalistic reporting and, tellingly, before people would dissect what was occurring behind the scenes as it happened. Still, your measured and wonderful podcasts really do exemplify why we do still need at least a breathing space between events occuring, books being written, etc., in order to look at what happened and what it tells us about culture and society. Saying this about “breathing space” I still really hope that you do an analysis-soon-of these past four years of the Meghan-Harry-Palace saga. You open things up to careful analysis and debate, with appropriate amounts of sympathy for the human beings in the tragedy. And that kind of treatment is so desperately needed now. Well done anyway!
Many thanks for the thoughtful comments!
I really did enjoy that, thank you. I am listening to CheereDenise reading about Princess Di at the moment and not quite recognising PD as the woman I watched in those early years. It feels like a renewal smear campaign. However there will always be controversy in that department i guess, it’s always a good doer when we need our minds taken off more serious matters. I look forward to your future investigations very much.
Wonderful balanced and thoughtful discussion of Diana - thank you. I’ve only just discovered your channel so I’m luxuriating in a Christmas/New Year binge of back episodes
What a lovely comment Debbie, and welcome to Team Scandal.
I’d love to know how you came across us …
Hi Phil - @@philmcraig - I discovered your podcast via Andrew's recent interview with yet another Andrew (Gold) on the Heretics podcast about the dastardly Andrew (Prince). I really appreciate your measured and thoughtful insights and review of our past and recent history. I am in NZ and a bit of a royalist. I'm of the same generation as Diana so I became mesmerised by her - having children and being divorced all around the same time. I have really enjoyed your comments about how the royal women (particularly Catherine and Sophie, and even Camilla in her own ordinary and unpretentious way) have the potential to save the Royal family from themselves. That perspective has really made me think. Also how you highlighted how the mental health card was used against Diana. While I like the balance of views between you and Andrew L I find I can't agree with you that Meghan is a part of the feminist move for change within the RF. My background is in HR and my impression of her is that she gets a job (without much due diligence or research) and once inside decides the place or product is crappy and then go about telling everyone how it should all be changed. I think the others have seen the monarchy for what it is - have been burnt themselves - and have then opted for the long game. I don't actually think Meghan is that smart. And the hypocrisy is also a bit hard to take. Revisit them when their kids are a bit older, they are sick of each other, have money problems and their kids announce they are changing gender and then see how they are managing...
I also really like the guests you have had on and how collegial you all are given that in some ways you are 'competitors' in the biography market e.g. Robert Jobson, Richard Kay, Andrew Morton, Tina Brown, etc. I do watch a bit of GB News and TalkTV (for my sins) but they are lightweight compared to you two - keep it up
Thanks for the lovely long reply and for 'getting' what we are trying to do with this pod! Please tell your friends!! I think on balance you're right about Meghan although - depending on how British elections go - I can forsee some pressure building to bring her back into the fold in some limited way @@debbiedawson8109
So glad you met the staff.❤
Watching this for second time and revisiting your Diana biography. Thank you so much, again. Utmost respect for you both. Humbly from New Hampshire.
That's really appreciated - Thanks!
Thanks!
Thank you for your reply about wish for your Diana book in audible. Yes, I have the Kindle version but would buy audible if it becomes available. Thank you for the ongoing gift of your content.
I found this intriguing and insightful. Thank you.
That’s great to hear, thanks! Second part comes out next Monday with a v strong interview with Diana’s former private secretary
It would be wonderful if your Diana biography were available in audible.
I will look into this. You can get it for kindle I believe - at least in the UK 😊
Wow, great podcast. Learned lots I didn't know.
Many thanks!
Charles had both Uncle Dickie and Laurens Von Der Post to guide him. Both men brought their own dysfunctional baggage with them!
You do know serial killers can have normal childhood upbringing . It doesnt mean they are stable I still believe that both diana family & her knew exactly what she was getting into . She was a maniplative liar too
Go read the house keepers diary Wendy Berry seen first hand how Diana treated her staff cruelly & maniplative to men especially to get her narrative out there . Diana was not a saint & she had alot of jealousy towards tiggy & other ladies that became important in her sons life .
Sorry guys, I'm just "binge catching up" on your previous episodes, I disagree with a lot you have said. Lady C's book told the truth about Diana first. Diana approached Lady C to do the book, which Lady C expected to be about the charity work as well as herself. They had a number of meetings at the home of a friend of Diana's, however when Diana realised that Lady C was speaking to people to "fact check" things such as the suicide attempt down the stairs Diana stopped co operating. She then went to Morton to get him to write "her" story. Lady C debunked a lot of what was in Morton's book before his book came out. A few years later when they met Lady C mentioned the stairs incident, Diana blamed Morton and said he'd made it up. Lady C has never, to my knowledge, lost a court case because she fact checks everything as does Valentine Low and Tom Bower. Diana and Meghan are both narcissistic personalities.
I think the two of you need to read or reread Lady C’s first (and second) book on Diana. Your views are rather one sided
Maybe so, but I am guessing that my team and I met many many more of D's actual friends, family and teachers than LCC did!
I don't know how C & C can even show their faces. The British people are very forgiving.
Does Phil like Milk?
It was fancy water!