Another Russian A-50 Shot Down by Ukraine or Friendly Fire?
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- Опубликовано: 28 фев 2024
- Mover, Gonky, and Wombat discuss recent news and video alleging the shoot down of an A-50 Mainstay AWACS aircraft on 23 Feb 24. But was it friendly fire or a legitimate kill? Join the channel to watch LIVE every Monday at 8PM ET or to see full episodes of The Mover and Gonky Show. You can also join in on LIVE Q&As with the Mover Mailbag: / @cwlemoine Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot, author, cop, and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, author, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between. Featuring guest host T.R. "Wombat" Matson: www.trmatson.com
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Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components.
Gonky, keep in mind, this is the same Russia who should've had countermeasures to stop the attack on the moskva too.
And who regularly uses air defense systems against drones. Who had some real problems shooting down HIMARS missiles with video evidence.
Oh they DID have countermeasures... none of them worked though... because russia is shit
Very valid point.
This wasn't normal S-200, turns out that Ukraine had highly modified some of the S-200 to hit ground targets accurately and also modified some of them to hit targets with an improved seeker it seems like. Ukraine does this a lot, they often take old Soviet stuff and modify it to be quite effective.
The pictures and videos of the wreck exist. Russia’s first response was Ukraine shot it down. When Ukraine confirmed, they changed to friendly fire.
This suggests some sort of official reaction/announcement that never happened.
Speculation on Telegram channels and forums doesn't count as "Russia's first response".
I've seen a video on telegram uploaded by locals who went to the crash site a walked around some of the wreckage, there was a extended shot of the top of the tail section and it is the same T shape as found on the IL-76/A-50.
I read some speculation about Raytheon (&Rafael??) doing some "testing". Friendly fire by spoofing the IFFs & launching some MALDs might be a scenario 😅
The thing is, Ukraine isn't in possession of anything with the range to hit that far out from the ground. Best guess is that they modified a stealth drone for the A2A role, which would be very interesting
@@jameshodgson3656 Who says it's not possible to add a second stage with a solid rocket engine for an AA missiles to extend the range?
It's not Ukrainian they speaking. It's actually russian language. the video was taken over krasnodar. You probably know this location if play DCS. Also, russi confirmed the loss
When you understand the logistics of what it would actually take for a side to accidentally shoot down one of their own AWACS - not once, but twice - you realize how ridiculous a "friendly fire" claim is. It's absurd.
What's crazy is that Russia would rather look incompetent than admit it was shot down.
On top of that, Russia also claimed friendly fire for the loss of some of the Fulcrums and Fullbacks they lost over the last couple of weeks.
@@StephenAngelico I heard they weren't even flying Fulcrums.
"friendly fire" always seems ridiculous, then you remember both sides infantry are wearing camouflage with bright coloured bands around their helmets and appendages.
@@MobinBrown I'd be more inclined to believe reports of friendly fire on infantry (by anything - infantry, artillery, air support etc) for that reason. This is an AWACS, and other reports just over the last couple of weeks included Su-34 Fullbacks and Su-35 Flanker-Es, none of which Ukraine have, and Russia has IFF that should make such incidents rare.
The video that I saw showed the A-50 popping flares. There was one explosion behind the A-50, and a few seconds later there was a second explosion which looked like a hit. No more flares after that.
Yeah, it was clearly breaking up in the air and coming down in flaming pieces after the second explosion. Seemingly two separate missiles.
It looked like the plane defeated one missile but got hit by the second one.
Probably flares, chaff, ew and other countermeasures
You lost me when you are being skeptical about a plane going down when Russia said it went down.
Russia admits they lost the plane. Its destruction is not a question.
I believe they were making the possible point that it could be an admission of one thing shot down, but in reality it -may- have been something else shot down. The idea that you won't be looking for something that you think is already destroyed.
These guys are taking the information that comes in and relaying it; with a skeptical eye. As they should.
Could it be a HVA? Maybe.
Could it be something else? Maybe.
Look into the details of the Battle of Hostomel Airport, and you’ll see that maybe the Russian military isn’t as competent as we all thought they were.
the Russian repeat of Market Garden's Arnhem attack?
It's popping flares and chaff and I'm sure electronic ecms if any thing on earth
Could counter a missile it is a A 50 In theory . I believe ukraine shot it down
@@richardhockey8442 Ruble store Market Garden, at least the US/UK learned from it.
Tbf the vdv guys on the initial air assault did what they were supposed to do, capture the airport. they got shafted without any support or ammunition that was supposed to arrive which ultimately led to the recapture of the airport and effectively ceased the opportunity to take kyiv administrative buildings and personnel hostage.
@@ashblythe9598 good!
Insert Hunt for Red October meme with the caption "You've lost another Beriev A-50?"
In the extended video footage, the A-50 aircraft came under attack from multiple missiles. And at least one of the missiles went for the flares. The A-50 crew had been aware of the missile threat well in advance and had commenced deploying flares some time before being hit.
Flares and chaff, probably.
If flares and chaff were pumped simultaneously, you can't determine it went for the flare.
yeah but point been the first missile did go for the decoy ... Whatever it homed in on .. well that we don't know .. the A50 is a big ass aircraft .. would chaff be enough to decoy a radar guided missile .. probably not and the crew where probably jamming also .. so i suspect it went for a flare .. so IR guided missile .. ?? @@ChucksSEADnDEAD
Yeah that statement is more misinformation than anything else
The A-50s were engaged at long range with radar guided missiles
The A-50s MAWS and RWR did warn the crew they had been targeted but there was nothing they could do about it.
@@kittyhawk9707Yep. IR missile means close range. Close range means, to my mind, a Ukrainian aircraft. I think it's likely Ukraine installed stinger missiles on a drone and flew it at low altitude to strike the A-50. In the video you can hear the civilians say "drone". Very possible given that the A-50 was likely flying on a known route over and over.
One thing that I've been aware of this whole time is that what Ukraine talks about has three different levers. One is attempting to show the truth, one is attempting to show a picture that will help gain them more support from Western countries, and one is trying to conceal operational intel from the Russians. All three have to be balanced. And it does mean it's going to color the exact information that comes out
yup just as any nation at war would do.
Yeah that's a good way of putting it. I'd add two things however. I think you need at least one more lever, and that's the need to also craft narratives for the domestic audience, to keep morale high at home. This can be difficult, because sometimes the "right" narrative for domestic consumption could prove damaging to level of support in the West. It's also probably the area where they are forced to stray furthest from the truth. The 46th Air Assault Brigade telegram channel has been mocking ex-deputy defence minister Hana Malyar for over a year for how she "singlehandedly" maintained Ukrainian control over the town of Soledar in her press conferences, for ten days after the 46th withdrew and the town was fully occupied by Russia.
The second thing is that it was much easier to show a lot of the truth when it was very favourable to Ukraine. The biggest reason they so decisively won the information war in the first months was that they could just tell the truth about the war and how it started, whereas Russia could say nothing but the most preposterous lies. I remember in 2022 when Lavrov was speaking at a conference in India, which he probably thought would be at least a partially sympathetic audience given Russia's supposed support in the Global South, and the whole audience started laughing when he said that Russia didn't start this war and didn't invade Ukraine but was just defending itself. It's also easy to tell the truth when you're gaining back lost territory, and embarrassing an enemy that seems entirely incompetent. But now that things aren't so rosy, and successes are much scarcer, it's harder to tell your population the unadulterated truth.
There's a longer version of the video which claims to show the missile explosion and burning wreckage on the ground. Also, many late-Soviet era military aircraft have a countermeasure dispensing mode that fires both flares and chaff at the same time.
What? Mainstream media is NOT telling us Ukraine is doing great.
MSM has been good on the war. Conspiracytards somehow feel the need to believe RT.
Quite a few different channels are saying this was a Phranken SAM, an S-200 guided by a Patriot radar.
On a side note, every time I see a picture of the S200 missile I can't help but think how much it looks like the Bloodhound S.A.M system used by the British in the sixties and seventies
Reminded me of cold war era Nike missiles. Probably similar to the Bloodhound
Lol Gonky still surfs the World Wide Web
One theory I heard is that they used a Patriot AN/MPQ-53 radar for guidance which is possible in theory but even the 5N62 Square Pair from the SA-5 complex can make the shot on paper. A slow moving A-50 flying a racetrack is probably the easiest target for an SA-5 you could ever have so the math says it could work. Also I can't personally find anything indicating that the A-50 has DECM only chaff and flares, there could well be something and if someone able to read Russian could do a deeper dive they may find something but even their airborne command posts like the Tu-214VPU variants don't appear to have any countermeasures so it could just be a soviet design decision
S200 has no resistance to electronic countermeasures, unless they heavily modified the missile electronics which is not an easy task it'll be pretty easy to spoof them, there's very intense ground based EW presence in the area.
Gravity is not Russia’s friend
The Russians rarely admit their air assets are shot down by enemy forces. This wasn't friendly fire, imo.
Yah, isn't an AWACS-type aircraft there to ID friend/foe and direct anti air assets? I mean shooting down a surveillance aircraft that's 150 Km behind the front in your airspace where you know there's no Ukrainian aircraft, that's also in at least indirect communication with your battery... that's a big fairy tale to swallow.
Remember when they claimed the Moscva sank because of careless smoking
I have total confidence in Russia being able to shoot down two of their own AWACS aircraft; however, because they claimed they did it, we can all be certain Ukraine did.
"I just wish that whole conflict would go away". Gonky speaks for us all.
They felt that way in 1938. That's why they appeased Hitler for so long. However, cowardice is shortly no longer going to be an option.
"I just find it hard to believe Russia would lose two in a short amount of time..."
To be fair Gonky, Russia has done things in this war that has been really mind-boggling... For all the wrong reasons.
Russia constantly uses the gross incompetence excuse for everything. They've been losing a lot of planes lately, even beyond the AWACS not sure what's going.
Vipers entered the chat ?
True, although it's not always a lie. I mean, they are rather incompetent, just not quite as incompetent as they claim to be.
@@robertsmith4681no, it's not a thing that you can keep in secret, the moment they take off it's in the range of the A-50U radars, they'll know very quickly if it's the usual Mig-29, Su27 or if it's a different aircraft, they know very well how an F-16 signature looks.
"They've been losing a lot of planes lately" - claimes of Ukranians without proof. They've just painting numbers, "lately".
Who shot this aircraft down is up in the air (so to speak 😏) but think little doubt at this point one was (Ukrainian General was quick to take credit, but Russia did announce a S-400 battery crew was arrested in the aftermath 🤨). Have seen images of the tail section (rather intact but looks riddled with fragments) & other parts of the supposed aircraft plus satellite imagery of the crash site (from Denys Davydov & Suchomimus among others). Supposedly the aircraft in question was a recently updated model.
Typical Russian reaction. Of course they are going to arrest someone, but that doesn't mean they did it. We are talking RUSSIA here after all.
Suchomimus and Denys Danydov both addressed this in their videos and the former had stills from the crash site that allude to the A-50.
That last comment from Gonky "I just wish that whole conflict would go away" pretty much sums it up.
Sounds like 1938, when Chamberlain gave away part of Czech at Munich to appease Hitler, hoping to make it go away. Time for the West to grow some balls, it's not going anywhere except into our own backyards.
Putin can stop it anytime.....
My understanding of the situation of things you got wrong (not trying to be a jerk, just providing info):
- The video you showed is the first half, then you need to find the other half and you put them together and the other half has the explosives.
- There are pictures I saw of a downed A-50, along with a video of a guy carrying around a large piece of identifiable A-50 debris.
- Russia actually claimed that Ukraine shot down the A-50, and so did Ukraine. Ukraine said they used Special Forces and Russia said Ukraine has a new unknown long-range capability. It's actually the internet that is speculating Russia shot it down because there is a video of the anti-air missile being fired and it's launching vertically from what seems to be behind Russian lines. I think people might have geolocated the exact point, but not sure.
I hope this helps. I think there's no doubt an A-50 was lost. There is some dispute about how the airplane was lost IMO. Russia has to be running seriously low on capable A-50s. Didn't they lose one on the ground earlier in the war?
1) Doesn't change anything.
2) We showed video of that.
3) Russia claimed it was friendly fire.
YT keeps deleting my comments with absolutely nothing wrong in them!
The word C. O. s. T..... REALLY YT?
Yeah, a total of 3 gone. One was on the ground. They only had a total of 8 or 9 at the start. Original C. O. s. T... for each was 650 million estimated and that was 25 years ago.
Sounds like a lot of money and it is, but not unusual for what it does.
@@Rogue-7.62 Yes, YT is totally out of control with their censorship.
There's been photos of wreckage
Mover's camera uses A50 tech
Camera works fine. 🤷♂️
camera comment was totally unnecessary but laughed hard
@@CWLemoine Haha just pokin fun at ya, love the show!
There are plenty of pictures of it including markings. It apparently took the tail off and the crash site has a clear separation of approx 3k between the 2 segments.
I think an obvious point that wasn’t touched on is that if it wasn’t an A50 why would Russia not deny it instead of saying they shot it down. Either it means they are hiding an even more valuable shoot down by taking the A50 route or an A50 really did get shot down. If there’s no evidence of an A50 being shot down it makes little to no sense for Russia to argue only how it was shot down and not the type of aircraft itself.
It's pretty much impossible to shoot this down by accident. What would a Russian unit even mistake it for?
Couple of points:
1) you played the video from the point of impact, that is the flaming wreckage falling not countermeasures.
2) there is a few minutes of flares before impact
3) Russia cannot say they lost anything, aircraft, warships, tanks because they tell the Russian public they already won.
4) you are late to this and missed the wreckage on the ground filmed in the morning
Watch the whole video and also look at the date at the top left. 🙄
"3) Russia cannot say they lost anything, aircraft, warships, tanks because they tell the Russian public they already won." - where did you got that from?
@@timur3505 RT news Ru, TASS agency RU, Kremlin press releases in RU, Kremlin spokesman in RU state Tv, state funded public social media sites VK and Rutube.
Is that enough for you? They are still saying that now the SMO is over and it’s a war against NATO not Ukrainian people who are now Russian just pick one and look yourself
@@timur3505 I did share the sources I took this information from but it was deleted for some reason
The first thing I also had to do when I read this news was look up S-200 to make sure it was an old SA-5 Gammon. I was in Air Force intel over 50 years ago, and this SA-2 replacement was just being deployed across the USSR back then. Trivia- the NATO code names for SAMs all begin with a G for ground-to-air. Gammon is British English for a type of diner ham.
English English, please. Don't include the Welsh and the Scots!
@@spdaltid Miriam-Webster online dictionary definition…chiefly British : HAM sense 2. 😋🍖
Holy shit, was not expecting the borderline conspiracy theory brain takes
Andre (Putin)... you've lost (shot down) another submarine (A50)?
loool
So let's say it turns out to be 2x friendly-fire incidents... could Ukraine decorate that Russian SAM crew? What's the protocol on receiving medals from your enemy?
There are no photos of the first A-50 wreckage, which is not so strange since it went down in the sea. However the Russians moved the A-50 flights way back after that, so something clearly happened. Then they lost this last one and have not flown A-50 in the area since. They probably have more planes, but if they have to fly them even furter back there is no point. It would hardly cover any area in Ukraine not already covered by ground radar, so why risk it.
Yep, 160 km was the first shoot down from the frontlines, although the second one is closer to 250km
There are pics and satellite photos of the A50
That is a very 1980's looking F-5 in your intro.
As someone from Germany who does not consume as much US mainstream media, do they really all say that Ukraine is doing well? Here we had the recent reports on struggles, especially with equipment and ammunition.
Its mixed. Show the successful operations but limited info on failures and casualties. MSM does cover UKR ammunition shortages.
reliable msm here has a dour tone about the war at this point
I wonder if it’s just hard for guys who trained so hard to fight a competent opponent adjust to Russian operations in the 2020’s. We trained to fight the Soviets until they went away, and I figured we’d die if it came to war.
There's wreckage sat pics right at the seaside. There are also obituaries of some of the crew already online. Whomever shot it down.. it's proven fact that Russia would rather admit stuffing up rather then admitting that Ukraine is capable of shooting down their aircraft.
My dad served in Polish air force and served exactly on sa5 sams, he said that Ukrainians could actually do that with sa5. If they launched 2 3 maybe 4 missiles the awacs sized plane stood no chance. And Russians in order to use the awacs properly probably did get too close to the frontline.
I heard they detected themselves on radar and panicked screaming "my god theyre right on top of us." And called in backup against themselves.
I’m lost on how this guy can say that he has not seen any proof…..it’s out there, is this old and just uploaded today? I can see feeling that way on the day of or after but not at this point.
Edit: I see the date and now it makes sense
If only there were a date at the top left....
@@CWLemoine I completely did not see that. Makes sense now. Thanks for pointing that out for me to see.
Its gotta be rough when the audience knows more
Clearly Russia would not claim friendly fire on a second A-50, if it wasn't shot down. What would be the point.
Hey would anyone know if the russian airforce is fielding the TU-23M Backfire Because found 344-a connected to the backfire
From the Klingon antagonist on Star Trek: "Those A-50s should be hauling garbage. No, I take that back, they should be hauled away AS garbage."
There were pictures...come on
We just need to get even deeper Intel on this
Meanwhile, Germany out here tryin' to shoot down US Reaper drones over the Red Sea...
Are the "Deep Intel" references a knock against Ward Carroll?
There was another video of a russian farmer I think, showing part of the wings in a field...
9:55 That Russian text reads "link unit for the elevator" (in more or less terms)
One question for you guys, an AWACS is a huge radar in the sky, have missiles ever been designed to home in on airborne radars? Imagine a Phoenix type missile (eg long range) with an anti-radiation seeker? Or a smaller missile that can home in on the radar of a fighter? In BVR fights they always start with both sides lighting each others RWRs up like a xmas tree. You fire a missile back and rather than tracking the aircraft using a radar you track their radar. Since they don't see a lock and a missile warning they may keep their radar facing you which the missile can still see. Obviously such tech relies on the missile seeker remaining in the radar pizza slice of the target fighter. Could be similar to Home-on-Jam capability.
I think the HARM missiles could be used that way, but I’m not sure. Perhaps not. But it would be odd if someone hadn’t put a HARM seeker into an AMRAAM or put that capability into the AMRAAMs radar seeker.
From content on Telegram, it certainly seems like it was shot down, not to mention russia admitting it. Despite the incompetence of the russian military, it would be pretty strange for them to shoot down a component so integral to their own air defense.
6:00 - Such an astute observation by Wombat! lolol
Russia says they shot down their own A-50. Ukraine says they shot down an A-50. Seems to me the only question is who shot it down, regardless a second A-50 was lost.
The full video shows flares being deployed and a 1st explosion near a flare (could also be an Il-22 being hit, but was able to land) and the 2nd one connecting to the A-50. The video leaves no doubt if it was shot down. Some have suggested that "friendly fire" don't necessarily equate to "there's a plane, let's shoot it down, because we're so incompetent", but more in the line of "let's intercept those incoming enemy AA missiles, but oops, the friendly AA got confused and targeted their own aircraft instead". Or a decoy spoofing a Ukrainian jet, hoping for a re-targeting? Are those plausible explanations?
Oh btw, what makes the news even bigger is that Ukraine has shot down 13 planes in 12 days. It's just insane. The A-50 is pretty much irreplaceable, both in terms of airframe and the collective skill on board.
I'm not sure something designed to emit massive amount of RF power probably does have some countermeasures but ultimately it's only real defense is distance from the threats. It would requires poetically bad planning to get not one but two of them shot down but I wouldn't put it past them. Usually claimed losses are far more accurate than claimed kills for obvious reasons so if they align that's decently solid evidence something was destroyed. As they say though, the first casualty in war is the truth, so we may never know for sure.
Breaking news! Last weekend not this weekend.
Gonky speaks of being skeptical.. and then having family in "the" Ukraine.. 😬
He does. And we don't say "The" Ukraine. That refers to when Ukraine was forced to be part of "The" USSR.
@@ZDriver1996 That was my point. Apparently flew right over your head
@@DFI429 my bad
@@ZDriver1996 "Forced"? When and by whom?
@@timur3505 Stalin
No bad words in the video footage. You are good 👍🏻
We expected to lose 7 E-3s the first night of Desert Storm.
Gonky -they have film of the fire on the ground and the tail.
The Russians state it was friendly fire just like previous shoot down. The current theory is that the Poles/US/UK helped Ukraine jury rig an Polish S-200C "Vega"s (which has the range and can travel at above MACH 4, plus the Poles created the upgraded S-200C in the 2000's so it is modernized) and had it guided by Patriot radar to target.
You didn't watch the video until the hit!
Doesn't change a thing.
It says "ueal neveski rv" or RV Linkage
At least watch to whole video before you make a post. You didn't show the actul sequence up to the hit.
Both Poland and Ukraine updated there sa5/s200. They claim they gutted out the system and only as much as the body is being used. Also the system can be integrated with the s300 system. And that was even before the upgrades.
Thanks for the footage. From what you showed I'll very tentatively say sa5.
The SA-5 was a no-go item for the Buff, unless we had significant SEAD support. It was designed to shoot down the Buff, or any other heavy.
If you go Watch interviews of buff pilots in nam they say it was formidable but could dodge them pretty easily and has some maneuvers to keep the buff from being shot down and just damaged
@@calneigbauer7542 No, the SA-5 was never used in Vietnam (wiki), you're probably thinking of the SA-2. And also no, you don't dodge SAMs in the Buff, you use electronic warfare and turn to outrange them if possible. The SA-5 was DESIGNED to shoot down the B-52, it has a massive 478 lb warhead.
@@sb859 yes your right the 2 and I remember hearing some maneuver where you rock the plane left 30 right 30 and right before impact they would bank or something in case it hit it would minimize damage, granted I remember hearing this interview like 14 plus years ago
They claim 2 A-50 and 1 il76 and one il22 (the first day they shot down the A-50) … it’s adding up …
There is a video of two crash sites the next day the tail section is vividly shown as the plane split in two Durr... How would Ukraine know that it was shot down before the Russians Durr? 🤔
Would it be too much of a stretch to think, Ukraine could have Frankensteined the SA-5 to use a Patriot Radar for guidance, something the A-50 may not have been able to defeat with ECM?
Truth is the first casualty of war.
The most unfriendly friendly fire
can you interview Valery Shiryaev military expert..?
This is the third? Or was this a few days ago, and the second?
i was thinking the same. i wonder if they have any left at all. you see all the a50s lined up & they dont look serviceable.
The russians have IFF right? Why would they be shooting at one of their own aircraft squaking friendly?
Top left does bad research, not only it was confirmee by russians that it was shot down and there was wreck video too after that, lmao
"The Ukraine" Gross. Stoppit.
9:52 Apparently "344-A УЗЕЛ НАВЕСКИ P.B." Translates to something like "344-A Hardpoint R.V."
In a "training area" you attempt to investigate a "tic tac".
In a warzone? Perhaps you fire your weapons at tic tac as it proceeds to guide them to you. It wasn't even there, just some creek in the woods sppoked you into a foot shot.
I think the SA-11 can’t tell the difference between S-300 and AGM-84 also A50
To add to what Wombat was saying, not only do we have instant access to all kinds of media, this is the first time we've gotten this kind of media (major war) including other countries propaganda while also having instant access to people in other towns, cities, states and countries to talk to. Back in the day you read the paper and discuss with your neighbor, the grocery store clerk and the guy pumping your gas. Today we end up with 69 versions of everything that happens and makes it almost impossible to know what to believe.
We are literally in the middle of a hybrid info war just as vital as the kinetic one in terms of Russia's aspirations. The reason there is so many version, and unsophisticated or uncurious people are so confused is that the information space is intentionally flooded with disinformation on a massive scale.
At face value this war is obvious - the successor to the USSR is trying to reconstitute its old empire. However that is an extremely asymmetric war, so they depend on sowing confusion, doubt, fear and dissension in the West. This has been the tactics in wars for several hundred years now but, as you point out, the weapons have become much more sophisticated.
All fire is unfriendly at it's intent.
Mainstream media has NOT been saying Ukraine is doing great. You need to be more discriminating in your news sources if you have that impression. You might get that impression from trolling around RUclips, but papers like the NYT, WaPo, Guardian, WSJ, as well as Newsweek and others continue to run in-depth analysis articles that are pretty gloomy. I get so tired of people dismissing the "main stream media" who in fact have no idea what is being reported.
you must have missed the articles about how the counteroffensive was gonna be a great success and liberate crimea and how the desperate incompetent russians are supposedly fighting with shovels and running out of tanks and missiles and carrying out "meat wave attacks" because they want to get as much land as possible before their economy and their whole country finally collapses.
it's ironic how it turns out that almost everything we've been laughing at the russians for, the ukrainians are now doing, and often in much worse and incompetent and inefficient and horribly bloody and wasteful manners just from sheer desperation and always being on the back foot and having to react and pick between multiple terrible choices because they don't have any strategy and waited until the very last moment.
like having to abandon their fortress and leave behind hundreds of guys because their soviet-minded high command couldn't put their ego aside and give the order a week prior and instead decided to wait until they were completely surrounded. like massive corruption and bribes and goons kidnapping sick and blind and disabled people in their sixties from the streets of kiev and forcibly mobilizing them while hundreds of thousands flee the country to avoid the draft. 250 billion dollars of assistance in two years, and yet we still have units at the front having to beg on the internet for donations from doggy brigade people just to get some cash to buy gas to be able to fuel their vehicles, or get cheap drones because their government is so corrupt that it couldn't even be bothered to put together a properly organized drone production program after more than two years. a week of training before being shipped to the front to attempt to stop the infinite waves of russian troops and vehicles while sitting out in the open in some artillery crater or underneath some destroyed trees with zero cover because their corrupt government pocketed the money that was supposed to go towards building defense lines.
and then you wonder why public support is sinking like a rock and people don't trust a word of what comes out of kiev and the media..
You mean there’s not only CNN and/or Fox News?
I’m pretty sure gets the information on what mainstream media from the imagination of some pro-Russian goons that don’t read them either.
Very interesting the Russian Air Force, may have 4 operational A-50U AWACS aircraft, with one A-50U that was damaged on the ground at a Belarus Air Base, by a Ukrainian drone attack back in 2023.
Which was able to be flown back to Russia for repairs, but no one seems to know if repairs have been start or have been carried out, with this A-50U AWACS aircraft, the last to be produced as an A-50U too has been returned to operational duties?
Also with the Ukrainian Air Force claiming to have shoot down one A-50U in January 2024, then shooting down a second A-50U in February 2024 as well.
However, the Ukrainian Air Force has not said how these two A-50U AWACS aircraft were shoot down inside Russian Airspace or over the Black Sea, neither has the Russian Air Force either, no surprise there though.
Could the Ukrainian Air Force have used some Long range Surface to Air Missile, maybe using the American Patriot Missile System?
Or could have a Ukrainian Air Force Fighter jet, have surprised the Russians A-50U AWACS aircraft, with a long range Air-to-Air Missile or multiple Air-to-Air Missiles shoots.
Again maybe using American AIM-120D-3 and the AIM-120C-8 (are international variants supplied to Ukraine included) AMRAAM's (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile) or using software modified AGM-88E HARM (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile), for use in the air-to-air anti-radiation role against Russian A-50U AWACS aircraft especially?
Or did the Ukrainian Air Force already have use of F-16A's (ex Nato) fighters armed with both AIM-120C-8/D-3 AMRAAM's and/or AARGM-ER-88G HARM’s (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile), which is a tactical air-to-surface anti-radiation missile normally?
The HARM AARGM-ER-88G’s uses the existing guidance system and warhead of the AGM-88E, but with a solid integrated rocket-ramjet to double the range.
Again which have had their software modified for use in the air-to-air anti-radiation role against Russian A-50U AWACS aircraft especially?
Or the possibility that the Americans have actually loaded for operational testing, or supplied the Ukrainian Air Force a few of these new “Long-Shoot” prototypes Advanced High-speed Sub/Supersonic Air-launched Weapons carrying and dispensing Long Range / Long Endurance Stealth turbofan-powered Drones the USAF have been testing?
Basically an Advanced High-Speed Sub/Supersonic Air-lunched (from heavyweight fighters aircraft or bombers) Missiles or Aerial Weapons carrying and dispensing Long Range / Long Endurance Stealth Unmanned turbofan-powered Drones.
Which can carry different aerial ordnance or weapons, from Short to Medium-range Air to Air Missiles, or Anti-Radiation Missiles, or short to medium-range air to Surface Missiles, or short to medium range Anti-Ship Missiles.
As well carry and drop the likes of Advanced Free-Fall-and-Glide Smart Munitions too, or launch Expendable self-propelled and/or Parachute retarded Electronic Warfare or Electro-Optical Warfare Decoy or Jamming System Sub-munitions too.
Maybe in the future the “Long-Shoot” Advanced High-speed Sub/Supersonic Air-launched Weapons carrying and dispensing Long Range / Long Endurance Stealth turbofan-powered Drones, could be armed with small anti-missile or anti-aircraft and/or anti-drone laser or energy weapons too.
Which would be equally useful against Russian A-50U AWCAS aircraft, or Intelligence Surveillance Targeting Reconnaissance Electronic Warfare manned or unmanned platforms, plus against Maritime Reconnaissance Patrol manned or unmanned platforms similarly too.
Especially if these “Long-Shoot” Sub/Supersonic Air-launched Long Range / Long Endurance Stealth Drones, are equipped with their own onboard ECM (Electronic-Counter-Measures) or ECCM (Electronic-Counter-Counter-Measures). Or even with their own onboard ESM (Electronic-Support-Measures), to confuse and fool or jam and blind enemy airborne or surface radars too.
These “Long-Shoot” Sub/Supersonic Air-launched Long Range / Long Endurance Stealth Drones, when operationally deployed and used as force multiplexers by USAF, USN, USMC fighters and bombers, maybe equally by some Nato Air Forces fighters too.
When operating in contested or enemy airspace, or trying to penetrate High Threat Hostile Enemy Air Defence Environments, a mixture of Surface to Air Missiles, Anti-Aircraft Artillery (rapid-fire guns or canons), or Anti-Air Laser or Energy Weapons Defence Systems, plus up against Air Interceptor and Air Superiority manned or unmanned fighters too.
With fighters optimized to fight in the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) regime, in other words Long-range Air interceptor Fighters, armed with ALRAAM’s and AMRAAM’s mostly no need for a cannon.
Or fighters optimized to fight in the Within Visual Range (WVR) regime, in other words Air-Superiority Fighters armed with ASRAAM’s and AMRAAM’s plus aerial canons for self defence mostly too.
However, try to penetrate High Threat Hostile Enemy Air Defences, also means dealing with or taking out, both Airborne and Surface or Ground based Early Warning Radar systems, or confusing and jamming and/or fooling these too.
Though there is the use of LIDAR Air Defence sensors, as well as Electro-Optical Sensors, Acoustic Sensors, plus all of Electronic Intelligence (ELINT, Signal Intelligence (SIGINT, Communication Intelligence (COMINT0, (RADINT) and (TLINT) Sensors too.
Also countering enemy Air Defence command, control and communication, computers and cyber warfare (C5) functions. Which these “Long-Shoot” Sub/Supersonic Air-launched Long Range / Long Endurance Stealth Drones, are designed to penetrate and take down High Threat Hostile Enemy Air Defence Environments.
That is ahead of manned fighters and bombers, going into enemy Airspace on Close Air Support and Interdiction Strike operations.
So the Ukrainian Air Force using one of these American Long-Shoot” Sub/Supersonic Air-launched Long Range / Long Endurance Stealth Drones, armed with American AIM-120 C-8/D-3 AMRAAM's and/or American AARGM-ER-88G HARM’s too.
Launched a “Long-Shoot” Stealth Drones, from and by a Ukrainian upgraded Air Force SU-27 or Mig-29 fighters, or from an ex-Nato supplied F-16A or F-16C which is already in Ukraine somewhere secretively based too.
With then one of these “Long-Shoot” Stealth Drones could easily penetrate Russian Air Space or Russian High Threat Air Defence Environments, then fire AIM-120C-8/D-3 AMRAAM’s or AARGM-ER-88G HARM’s at a Russian A-50U AWACS aircraft especially if the “Long-Shoot” Stealth Drone is jamming the A-50U radars simultaneously too.
Then Game Over for Russian A-50U AWACS operations, anywhere near the Ukrainian borders with either Belarus or Russia. Or for an Russian A-50U AWCAS aircraft operating over the Black Sea in range of the Ukrainian coastline too.
Russian A-50 AWCAS aircraft could be easily attacked by the Ukrainian Air Force using one of these American supplied, if the Americans have supplied secretively these “Long-Shoot” Advanced High-Speed Sub/Supersonic Air-lunched weapons-carrying-and-dispensing Long Range / Long Endurance Stealth Unmanned turbofan-powered Drones.
A major headache for Putin’s Soviet Russian Regime leadership, let alone the Russian Air Force to worry about too. The Russian are now facing maybe American and Nato prototype weapons system, being operationally test in Ukraine against the Russian Forces?
Though who is testing these Western prototype weapon systems, the Ukrainian Military with western observers present?
Or is it either Western Defence Contractors actually testing their own Western prototype weapon systems against the Russians?
Or is Western Military actively and secretively involved in testing Western prototype weapon systems against the Russians?
Does this basically already equal, Western Military Boots on the ground in Ukraine too, or have Western Countries or Nato Special Operations Forces had boots on the ground right from the start of Putin’s illegal war on Ukraine too?
So where does that leave Putin’s open threat to use Nuclear Weapons against the West and Ukraine, if Western Military Boots are on the ground in Ukraine too?
Then returning to Russian AWCAS platform available to the Russian Air Force, there are the possibility of 3 prototypes A-100 Airborne Warning And Control System (AWCAS), aircraft in research evaluation and development since 2014 and 2017 to the present day.
Which are improved and upgraded A-50U's platforms, the Russian Air Force maybe able to deploy for use near Ukraine too, this would increase Russian AWCAS capabilities upto possible 7 or 8 Russian deployable AWCAS platforms.
However the older A-50S and early variants of the A-50 AWACS aircraft dating back to the late 1970’s and 1980’s plus 1990’s too. As many as 30 to 40 A-50 AWCAS aircraft, are believed to be long pass their operational use, or just not airworthy basically and left as ground training fuselages with no engines even.
Unfortunately you have to have a mis-information campaign as a nation state. The primary reason is to make it harder for the enemy to do it's own intelligence gathering. The best forms of mis-information have several levels of lies mixed with truths so it becomes hard to distinguish between the two.
Notice there were 2 missiles and two aircraft were hit. Looks like they got both the A-50 and an escort fighter. Ukraine does have modernized S200.
Kind of makes me wonder if the Ukrainians have figured out how to put together longer range anti radiation missiles, Russians could try to jam it until the cows come home and all they did was help it track ...
Based on other anecdotal points about what the ukrainians have been able to reverse engineer, and piece together other bits of technology, it wouldn't shock me at all if nearly everything high dollar has been modified in some way at this point.
Something to keep in mind is that nearly all of the Soviet missile and space program engineers were actually Ukrainian. I think they've got the smarts and the brains to do it, not to mention the intense motivation
Perhaps the A-50 has self-defense jammers but maybe they only work against western SAMs?
I think it’s a case of, Russia has to admit they lost the aircraft, they’re just trying to dictate the terms. They know that the US and NATO is going to find out PDQ what happened, just by virtue of how many ISR assets being operated in the region and space.
I don't know what was the actual reason of the incident. I herd several rumors
1. Ukranians shot dummy old missile(probably big one) in the area where A-50 should be when missile will descend. So Russian air defense SA shot a missile to intersept Ukranian missile and shot down A-50. Ukranian missile was selfdestroyed in righ momemt so the russian missile relocked another target(A-50) in same direction.
In this case this could be both friendly fire from Russian side and a trap operation from Ukranian.
2. Friendly fire
3. SAM Patriot
But now its unclear what happened.
It seems logical to me that if the Ruzzies are actually saying that their A50 was downed by friendly fire that the darn thing actually came down without much doubt!
If the American’s are testing some of their prototype weapon and drones system, actually operationally in Ukraine against the Russian in a real war environment, to decide whether to buy and order them for USAF, or USN and USMC aviation units only.
Or market them for sale to either other Nato Members, or to European Partners, plus to International Allies as well, what a better place than the War in Ukraine to operationally test American prototype weapons and drone systems, as a world marketing and advertisemen scheme too!
Could you "Spoof" an IFF???? Temporarily make the Russians not recognize their own asset?
theoretically. Sort of.
IFF relies on the radar having a component that transmits "who are you?" in its search/track pulses, and the aircraft having a transceiver that hears that "who are you" and responds "here is my ID code". All of those messages are, of course, encrypted to some degree (assuming we're talking military aircraft). It's more complicated than that, but the general gist is the radar asks "who are you" and the plane responds "I am 12345"
Military IFF codes are encrypted, rotated on a regular basis, and subject to very tight security controls. If you could acquire your enemy's current IFF codes, you could install them in your transponder and your enemy would see you as a friend.
the biggest limitation of IFF is that it cannot tell you who your enemy is, it can only tell you who your friends are, who didn't reply correctly, and who didn't reply at all. Most military IFF transponders are configured to NOT reply to an interrogation which does not have the correct codes, so what IFF can tell you boils down to "this guy is almost certainly a friend, this guy might be a friend with outdated codes, and this last guy could be anyone".
Now, if you wanted to stop your enemy from being able to read his own IFF from his own planes, you would need to have a way to stop either his radar signal from reaching the plane, or the response signal from reaching the radar. Since radar is very directional, there's no really good way to do this. Your only options would be to light the plane up with so much radar energy that the plane cannot "hear" its own radar asking "who are you?", or to light the radar station up so that it cannot "hear" the plane replying. That is, you would have to do focused jamming on one of those two assets. You can see how this is possible in theory, but would require a huge commitment of resources to make effective in practice.
@@ShuRugal So; again theoretically, if the IFF codes had been changed, but the A-50 hadn't changed their code for some reason, then they wouldn't have sent the correct "Friendly" code or sent no code at all. That would add to the plausibility of a friendly fire shootdown.
@@dougrobinson8602 correct
Everyone did read the newspaper in WWI, and in WWII and the radio. People were in touch on a daily basis with the news outlets just as they are now.
The difference is that the potential outlets are an order or 2 of magnitude greater than they were before and they can't be controlled very well. But of course now you can also use the great number of outlets to sow seeds of doubt about anything. Fill the blogosphere with do much BS that people can't figure out what is and isn't true.
Another A-50 will 'fall' and round-the-clock duty will have to be stopped," the GUR chief added. As of late 2023, Russia had an estimated two A-50s and eight A-50U aircraft, according to the Military Balance 2024, compiled and published by the London-based think tank, the International Institute for Strategic Studies.2 days ago.