@@reoij Furry Community are 90% Gay and Husk is a cat with wings which it's a common design for furries OCs I'm not sure why you took offense on that person's comment, it doesn't even sound malicious
OK, in all likelyhood, since Keith is a top celeb and a main cast member, he likely gains Viv's favor and she and by extension the rest of Spindlehorse probably treats him better than the animators due to bias and favorability. So he's likely just having the time of his life. Plus, he's a voice acting veteran so they're gonna have to treat him with respect. I feel bad the most for all the artists and animators who were mistreated by Spindlehorse.
Another kinda shitty thing she did was Invader Zim and Hot Topic had a T shirt design contest and the winner would get paid for their design and win an art tablet. She publicly posted her design on Twitter so all her fans would vote for her. People called her out because it was super unfair to new and struggling artists.
@@Cherry-ki3lndude, she can pay for a fucking new tablet, she's straight up denying the possibility for other less economically fortunate individuals to get a chance at their dreams.
When the allegations about Spindlehorse’s low pay came up, a lot of people made excuses for it because it’s an indie production, ignoring the fact that Vivziepop is an extremely well off person who can afford going on monthly vacations and expensive Broadway shows but somehow pays her animators so low they can barely afford rent (not helped by the fact that they’re also overworked at the same time). Shes been bleeding animators so much that I remember seeing animation directors ask for animators after EVERY episode and even Viv herself began to beg for animators. And then of course, she switched to outsourcing because it’s even cheaper. I swear she made a company an unnecessary and oppressive system just so she could afford having Kesha voice her shitty wolf girl OC
Realize she was waiting for the Dr. Luke case to go through under wraps while begging and pleading for her to voice in her series..... kesha legally didn't sing it was another actress..... funny how the fandom just excuses how much she pays for expensive actors and voices despite having humble indie roots she basically abandoned literally everyone from the pilot....
This woman litterally bought two very expensive peacock taxidermy (thanks for a correction) and one was almost 3 thousand and the second was 3 thousand and around 500 So um? And she doesn't want her workers to work at other indie companies wich is just fucking crazy 💀 She wildin bro
@@Rattie_Loverfun fact the creator of Ollie and Scoops confirmed this and he DEFENDED her for it, saying she was simply looking out for the animators. Yes that makes perfect sense. People are so underpaid and overworked they still need to find a second/third job and Viv refuses to let it happen… Viv is so kind ❤️
I actually once sent an application for one of the jobs for Spindlehorse (I think that it was for a storyboard position) some months ago before I’ve heard of all this drama, I never got the job and when I looked into the low pay and seeing how professional animators said that it was low, I felt disgusted. And when I’ve heard of the amount of people leaving the job, that really shocked me. I feel like I’m glad I never got the job to save the pain of working with crummy conditions, but I’m also worried on how much worse is everything behind Spindlehorse to warrent such toxicity, favouritism and other things.
I remember I wanted to apply just for the experience but I want to love myself. It's hard to talk about it considering that the animation industry has an inner circle of everyone knowing each other. Even when people do talk about the working conditions, it's a bad reputation for them and will have them out of work. It's already a competitive industry so this makes it 10x worse. It's shitty but that's unfortunately how it is....
**NOTE: I AM THE SPREADSHEET GUY** Goodness, I didn't expect you to do the data analysis for me. I saw someone (rightfully) point out that someone not working on an episode doesn't mean they left, so that's important to keep in mind - but I am pretty grateful that you did what you did with the data. Also, I might, just might, update the original sheet that you made your own copy of with info from the 2 shorts that have come out since Hell's Belles. We'll see if my motivation holds.
Literally saw a post on tumblr of someone accusing you of being pr0shipper because you didn't delve into the bathtub snakes stuff and hate on viv for that. Like, I myself am extremely sensitive to anything involving morally reprehensible things, but even I was like: you've got to be kidding, we can't be accusing people of liking animals and children because they didn't want to accuse someone of a serious crime over a cringe drawing😭 like LOG OFF
I saw that post too and for some reason they refused to reply to those asking why they considered them a proshipper. They throw a bunch of accusations towards Vivziepop and Brandon Rodgers as well. They call em pedos but like... There's no evidence. I dislike em too but that's way too far.
its not a cringe drawing its child/animal pornography bro 😭like i agree with not accusing her of a serious crime but still, her actions do not exist in a vaccum. she still made the concious decision to draw and post that shit
@@hyderflayer It's a highly stylized cartoon drawing of a character design assigned an arbitrary age. If Vivzie stated the character to be 18 or older, no one would think anything of it because of how ambiguous her style is.
If I did an unscripted video it would be like me talking to a school counselor stumbling through the conversation. I think you did great both videos. I knew it was a mess but she must have been so hard to work with. I feel so bad for hunnycast still.
I really hope they don't get an hr department. For those of you who don't know hr is there solely for the purpose of protecting the assets of the company and not the employee. Always document everything and send management an email whenever there's a conversation being had with them.
@@CyburimOh god, not Sam Miller. If there's anyone worse than Viv, it's legit her. A vile controlling bully that only got into power due to being Viv's closest friend. Though Viv is still awful due to enabling Sam's behavior.
While I don't agree with your stance on The Snake Drawing(tm) I do agree that it's, like, the least of the concern here. It's weird and gross but it's SO old and she is actively harming people NOW, there's bigger fish to fry
Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss are like a guilty pleasure for me at this point..The art/designs are appealing to my inner teenage self, meanwhile the older me in the present can find and point out all the awful things in these shows, poor writing, etc etc..Maybe I want to see it improve or see how bad it'll get. As for Vivziepop herself, she's always been setup to be this way considering I've followed her back in her "music video" days (yeah we're both in our 30s). Take this with a grain of salt, but I remember seeing a live stream of hers years ago, which she deleted, that she went through her college years with professors not giving her an ounce of critique on her work, hence why she doesn't respond to being called out too well. You don't have to believe me, but I say it basically explains a lot from her behavior thus far then you gotta add in the part of her stans making it even worse..
I'd believe you about the art college thing, I'm not from the US, but Europe follows a lot of what the US does and the "not critiquing students, because they might get offended and syke their parents at the teacher" Trend is more and more common. If she was in my class (about 5 years ago) she would NOT survive the psychological torment our art teacher exacted on us, bro would just casually tell you that you should put a bow on yourself and lay down under a Christmas tree to tell your parents that 4 years isn't enough (that's how long you go to highschool here), or how he would ""congratulate"" You on inventing a triangle (we're jewel designers). tbh I appreciate his style of teaching more and more every day and I miss him and his supernatural talent to speak perfect deadpan sarcasm while annihilating your hopes and dreams.
@@lumiauroras6741 She would have been in college around the same time when I was working towards my Web Design degree. You basically proved a point of mine..I always felt like if she went to an art college outside of the US around that time in the past..Those professors would have put her through the ringer probably.
I have to agree with you. I really like the potential of the show, but I don't believe the writing will improve. It just keeps getting worse. I’ve lost faith in that, and I feel like Viv will keep doing these terrible things to her animators as long as she can get away with it. Honestly, it makes me sad watching these videos because I don't want to support the show anymore after hearing everything she’s done.
@@Nessus. I've resorted to just watch Hazbin on "free to watch" sites instead of watching it on Amazon. Not going to give Viv a cent of my view money..
Fun fact, I found an art professor on RUclips who had her as a student and went through her sketchbook (he did this with all his students) and I remember he gave her a lot of praise for how much work she did. She studied in New York I think?
Im seriously considering dropping hazbin & helluva entirely the creator is awful the fandom is awful the writing now that im grown is I see is either bad or just 3 troupes of daddy issues,heartbreak or trauma re bounding most of the community has this cult type mindset of defend the leader cause most have been there since early or late teens like myself & some still defend as an adult which is concerning they have a para social relationship which is not healthy
Hey, guy who did the data gathering for the spreadsheet here. *Look at fan content*. I dislike Hazbin and Helluva, I really do! However, I've actually managed to enjoy some of its fan content. The fans don't exploit others' labor. The fans ARE the laborers. Even if a given fan creator has Medrano's boot so far down their throat that they're shitting leather, they'll still likely have better writing in their fan stories than what we see in canon.
Hey, no need to drop Hazbin / Helluva fully, you can actually just drop the "canon" version of it and stick with the "fanon" interpretations and headcanons, I mean, that's what fanfiction is for lol
The animation industry is so terribly exploitative and a nightmare for many small artists. It desperately needs some standards, especially in countries like Japan and South Korea, where most popular tv shows are animated. Hopefully getting more eyes on Spindlehorse will allow people to see these flaws in the animation industry, rather than only becoming a hinderance on indie animation, or just another fault of Medrano. While I'm not fond of Medrano, I do believe she's part of a bigger issue rather than just a singular problem, and the last thing I want is for this situation to become another example of women in the industry being scorned for less than what the larger powers get away with.
Having questionable tastes and drawing them is in no way at the same level as stabbing your friends in the back after they worked relentlessly for your success. Her offense is beyond most crimes to me, let alone stupid proshipper vs antishipper Twitter debates.
These two videos have helped a lot because I kept seeing people saying Vivziepop is a horrible person. Even my friend in real life has told me she is terrible and I had no idea why and I didnt even know where to start
The thing about being indie is that you can't afford to underpay and abuse your employees because you don't have as many resources as Netflix or Amazon. It's actually more cost effective to treat your employees fairly because if they enjoy what they are doing, it will show in the final product which will result in more exposure and better sales. For an example, Chad Moldenhauer (I forgor how to spell his last name sorry), the director of Cuphead, refused to implement crunch time (a major problem in the development of video games) and was perfectly okay with the DLC being on hold for as long as it did so long as his employees were paid well and had days off. The DLC then broke records shortly after it came out by being the highest-selling DLC in just under _a week_ . In a similar vein, the quality of Hazbin and Helluva has drastically dropped, in both writing and animation, and it backs up that 50% turnover rate.
Yeah last vid was fire, unscripted oration was a good choice. The worst thing that happens is you cover a point and then rehash that same point shortly after. Personally, I enjoyed the semi frequent rehashes. Felt like listening to someone candidly rant.
great video, commenting for that good ol' algorithm. So strange these "indie" studios seems to be so...corporate, it's almost like it's not indie, and these aren't good people.
There may be quite a few indie creators turning big rich and corporate, but there's still TONS of indie creators that stayed true to, well, being indie and not a conglomerate. Just because Vivzie turned out this way doesn't mean there's no indie out there at all!
yeah kinda crazy how theyre justifying the low pay because its "indie" but Hazbin Hotel was literally picked up by two production companies. like yeah okay maybe you could justify it being indie for Hellava Boss but definitely not for Hazbin Hotel
I never understood the method of high turnover employment. Doing this so often will literally make the animation production have more delays, and it can cost more in the long run with both money and morals.
An annoying thing about hazbin fans is they pretend the show is like a smart and edgy/clever dive into morality, good and evil, and hypocrisy when the show literally excuses murderers, cannibals, naxis, rapists ect. as "innocent" and also fails to give any explanation for how morals work in its universe giving yhe excuse that nobody knows what gets u into heaven
It doesn't take world building or it's narrative seriously. Honestly, it's only set in Hell because it's cool. Because it allows furries and demons to exist, because Viv is an oc artist at heart. She has even admitted to being a bad writer, and not knowing how to write, so I'm not surprised she doesn't care about the *point* of Helluva & Hazbin. World building in the way you mentioned would give both shows more direction, but nah, goofy subplots instead of the cool shit we really want out of one of the only shows based in Hell.
@@SodaFrizz666Okay whats the point of caring about her stuff if shes not gonna bother to hire a better writer or work on improving her own skills? Is it just because she wants to be one of the big shots? Being surrounded by her idols 24/7? If that's all there is to it then that is such a lame path for an artist/"storyteller" to go down on.
When did the show excuse any of that? It never even mentioned nazis, I think what's annoying is when I hea claims like this but I never see anything like that really happening. Like when do they call them innocent? They clealy don't call Valentino or Alasor innocent for example and they are clearly evil. Isn't the explanation that morally bad people get sent to Hell?
@@Jdudec367 they excuse it when they charlie says to Adam that the souls in hell are exactly the same as the souls in heaven and when Emily says that the souls in hell are innocent. Nazis are mentioned when in helluva boss s1e1 Mayberry says "you do everything right, then one bad day and u end up with the Hitlers and Epsteins of the world."
@@Jdudec367 charlie tells Adam that the souls in hell are just like the souls in heaven, and Emily says "how can I stand by when thousands of innocent souls are being murdered." In helluva boss s1e1 Mayberry says something along the lines of how she ended up in hell with the "H*tlers and Ep stiens of the world." Fans also often say that the sinners aren't bad, they just made some poor choices in life then they unfairly got sent to hell because of it when all the sinners in hell are blatantly shown commiting evil acts and the backstories for all the main characters involve them all having done horrendous evil things that got them all sent to hell
What gets me annoyed is hazbin could have been GREAT the plot is interesting. But she fumbled so bad. So many plot holes in the show super rushed bad writing the songs are decent. But This is something that had gotten SO BIG and it’s so so new!! While my personal favorite lackadaisy has been going on since 2006. Has good writing and design no plot holes so far and a fun premise!! They have two Creole characters who do voodoo who are handled SO MUCH BETTER than Alastor!! There’s still so much mistery and it’s so fun!! And people hate on it for some reason. But it has so much good art and writing BUT NO THIS IS WHAT IS THE FACE OF INDIE. It’s not even indie anymore!!! It’s on Amazon!! Ok my rant is over. P.s. Lackadaisy is great watch it :D
@@Birdyboys The comment won't post maybe I set off a spam filter or something but some supposed DM leaks on four chan can be found if you google the co archive and search for Roo Leaks you'll find them They were posted in late December before HH released and given what we saw in S1 I'm inclined to believe them In the screenshots, a leaker reveals that Viv talks all the time in conference calls about the big reveal of HH being that Roo is the Big Bad, Eve wants revenge on heaven for being framed for the fall of man, and that Rosie is Lilith is in disguise (also Eve and Lilith switched places? A "Sweeny Todd" situation according to the leaker, which idk I'm not familiar with musicals) The leaker mocks Viv for thinking she's clever and bragging about how smart the writing is and how there's so many "hints" in the HH and HB
50%?!?! And that wasn’t even their lowest rate???? Jesus. I’ve felt sketched out about vivzie for a good while cause the amount of controversies she’s gotten herself into isn’t a coincidence. Some were petty and could easily be brushed off, but after the hh pilot, I started getting a weird feeling about her and I never could pinpoint it. I’m glad people are realizing and researching into who she really is.
Please make more videos like this, commentary with the unrelated footage. It’s amazing! Even on different topics, I love having something to listen to when drawing or driving
@@ThePaupepa because it’s the same hollow rumors and baseless claims that have been getting thrown around for years now. Practically everything in this video can be easily disproven because it uses the shakiest, most unsubstantiated claims ever. If all you’ve got to go on are instagram photos and Twitter posts. You’re not making a solid argument.
@@Dr.Oofers Be honest, what do you actually think this video is going to accomplish? Shaking her base? Most of them aren't even deep enough into the rabbit hole to see this and those that are fall into one of two categories: people who are part of the anti community like you who came in to have their views confirmed or people like me who stan Viv that have already written stuff like this off as nonsense. The amount of people actually convinced by this won't even be a drop in the bucket. Canceling Hazbin? It's being run by Amazon, who's CEO is practically the poster child for corporate greed. Even if these claims are true, upper management at Amazon won't even blink. Especially since a lot of worse people have put series on there. Not to mention that Hazbin has been one of the most successful shows on the platform to date and even got a Hot Topic merch line. Getting rid of Helluva Boss? RUclips allows people like Mr.Beast and Logan Paul to run free with little more than a slap on the wrist for behavior that is arguably WORSE than Viv. They won't even touch her. Bringing change to the industry? Harassing Viv won't accomplish that. Not when there's way bigger targets like the people in charge of Spider-Verse have been openly abusing their animators and yet still people are chomping at the bit to see the next movie; and that's actually been proven without a shadow of a doubt! If people don't care about that, they won't care about Spindlehorse. Tl:Dr: the impact this will have on literally anything will be like throwing a soda can full of pee into the Atlantic ocean. Nobody will even notice.
Watching this person who you followed since 2016 who was once a simple artist that did speed drawings and made Zoophobia, become this insanely well known person drenched in controversy who created two terrible shows, is like watching an empire being built and then slowly crumble down over time.
I'm glad its starting to come out how very manipulative and deceitful Vivzie is. Along with how mediocrely written both shows really are. Its a shame, regardless of what she's done, because both shows have great concepts and amazing potential- just that the shittiest person (& writer) made it. And then said person became rich and corporate as hell. Really adds the icing on the cake!
You speak so eloquently and profound, I almost can’t believe these are videos about Hazbin Hotel of all things. I mean genuinely, “you should take joy where you can get it” is such an amazing piece of advice. I mean it’s obvious, but it’s important to put things into perspective and recognize that happiness is a fleeting precious thing that you should take advantage of. I just really enjoy that sentiment and it made me feel pretty good. Thanks!
I've been waiting so hard for this i nearly pissed myself. Also, i love these not being scripted, i just love to listen to you talk, you have such a pleasant voice and manner of speech.
Not Viv publicly agreeing that the animators working ON HER PROJECTS shouldn’t be paid peanuts like it’s not well within her power, if not her actual responsibility to do something about it 💀💀💀
50% turnover rate is crazy😭😭 also great video! I just watched part 1 and loved it! This series is so informative since I didn't know why people disliked her, so this really helped me understand why
Oh hey, there's my friend Chai at 17:07! He's the one who's constantly stalked, harassed, and brought up by NorryNator and DJ Blitz. I'm sure he'd be willing to ask any questions if you'd ever want to talk to him, AS!
@@ujivoice Could you elaborate by "weird"? He's been my friend for years. I've seen what people have said about him and they blow it way out of proportion.
the biggest thing is that he ships toothless and hiccup i think? and his profile picture is an explicit image that's been cropped? not much but i know i and a few others distanced when it came out about this. its been a while so i can't really remember much, sorry
@@ujivoice Okay, well, for the first one, dragons aren't real. So that's not a problem. The only ships Chai likes are with adults, so when Hiccup is all grown up. It's like how he ships Beetlebabes (which Lydia's actress, Winona Ryder, also approves of). The profile picture is of his adult character drawn in chibi style. That's it.
I don't think it's a good thing even regardless of if the actor ships it that's still a child and an adult. it is rape and if Chai ships them then that is disgusting and so are you for thinking that is okay. he is a proshipper and that is ironic given he called Vivzie out for hiring proshippers and being a proshipper
You are the only person i came across who tackles the issues around vivziepop in a mature way. I learnt so much from your videos. I also absolutely despise how everytime her negative behaviour is brought up, people only mention her cringey drawings. As if there aren't millions of cringey drawings made by teens and young adults out there. This phase is more common than some of you may think
She made the bathtub snakes image when she was in college as an adult tho..... just saying......... I feel like most people forget that she's in her mid 30s now........🎉
I wanted to thank you. The last video really, definitely changed my mind about everything. Before this I really did think all criticism of Vivziepop was essentially nothingburgers of weird people fixated on cringe drawings years ago, or nitpicks, or things that could otherwise mostly be excused. Like? Yeah I see why the Voodoo thing was bad, but it really is hard to care about snakes in bathtubs and it is really, really hard to see more substantial claims when everyone just brought stuff of that caliber up. The way you organized these videos, combined with your clarity of thought and personability of presentation, absolutely shifted my views. Fantastic work, thank you for all the research. ❤
When I saw you posted again I became like that guy standing in front of a burning building rioting while holding a sign over his head, I was so excited to hear part two
On the "$1000 a week" thing.... The rest of the artists, if the numbers are to be believed, made $3200 a month, as opposed to the favored artists making $4000. That's a difference of $200 a week. That's a difference of $5 an hour. In order to be angry about this particular part, I'd have to know what their standards for being the higher paid artist were on a week to week basis (or even month to month). Regardless, it's a bit of a toxic environment to have the pay go up and down so wildly. Bonuses are a nice incentive, but this kind of swing in pay doesn't encourage people much. it isn't a high enough pay increase to really encourage people to keep going above and beyond serves only to split the artists into two groups arbitrarily. Nothing wrong with paying the better workers more money, but making it public, and shoving it into peoples' faces as an "incentive" is just dumb.
I feel like the problem with your first take about the bath tubs snakes is something doesn't need to be dangerous in order to be problematic. Is someone is getting off to the idea of a child in that position, it automatically makes them suspicious. Why is someone drawing children in such a way? Something doesn't need to create harm to real children in order to tell us something about the creator
At best, it makes her look foolish and misguided at that point in her life. She's drawn more than just that of Addi (zpanswers cough cough), but thankfully the infamous snake illustrations in particular didn't show anything below the waist. Even though she wasn't more than a few years out of high school, drawing porn of high schoolers is strange. Come on. College students are just high schoolers who are 1) adults and 2) probably in debt. High schoolers are more often than not still children. Easy decision.
let's reword this so that it's correct. i don't like a when viv was 16 and drew her oc in a way that i consider is problematic but forget all the context and now have to make leaps of logics that somehow it's dangerous ignoring that she herself was a kid. it's really dumb how people stuff up or just ignore context to make her seem bad.
@@trg2516 Vivienne Medrano was not sixteen when she drew that particular image, she was nineteen. Furthermore, she also drew Gustav and Addi having sex and stuck it on her zpanswers Tumblr blog around the same time. Yes, it's talked about a LOT, but there's just. So much misinformation about what actually happened and why it's messed up
@garbagedataraccoon correction she was. there's to many sources dating the picture in which she was 16 even older sources date it around 16-17. even when the outrage wasn't around and very small. On top of that a 17, with 19 years old, even in the real world. Nobody has a problem with unless you're a Puritan. Even the USA doesn't care. might be weird to post but nothing more.
whats crazy about all of this is the fact that both of her shows, even the one picked up by two production companies, have mediocre writing at best and borderline juvenile writing at worse. the quality is just not there and i dont even think they have outlines about where they want both series to go. yet Vivienne seems to think that she's a genius and can get away with treating the animators (who bring her show to life and help pay her bills) like crap
You people keep saying that and I have no f*cking idea what you mean when you say the show has bad writing; apart from extremely vague ‘vibes’, bad faith interpretations, and stuff that’s flat out not true. The show had the biggest debut of any animated series on Prime, beating out invincible and the legends of Vox Machina, not to mention it got positive reviews from professional critics and not pretentious RUclipsrs passing themselves off as critics. Viv is doing SOMETHING right with her writing and I sincerely pity your inability to see that
@@joemama1132 oh f*ck off. I’m sick of idiots like you screaming in my ear about how bad my favorite show is based upon the stupidest arguments I’ve ever heard
back when the payment controversy happened in January come out the person behind the Passionfruit article actually reached out to me and asked for a curated animator spreadsheet which details the pros and cons of multiple studios, one of which being SpindleHorse, so I sent him it. he didn't use it in the article but told me it was used for referencing I initially asked to remain anonymous because Vivzie's fans are...very aggressive if they know who to look for. but seeing as this topic is becoming more prevalent it feels a bit safer to say this 😭😭
The snake 'n p3do drawings was something she's already addressed 'n apologized for, which I've heard was due to traumatic reasons in her personal life, also was drawn when she was younger 'n stopped at the age of 19-21. As much as the point is that a minor character is placed in a sxual situation- regardless real or fake- she's also drawn that years ago, with a possibility of it being a trauma response, my worries that come with it is who she associates with, more so than that she's done it years ago. She's friends with proshippers, and while proshipping isn't always p3dophilia 'n Z00philia, that's still concerning esp if a person isn't using it to cope, but rather attracted to it.
OOHH YESS IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THISSS !! i dont mind there being a script honestly ! i enjoyed the last video a lot and i like the way you cover everything , thank u for ur work i really appreciate it also wow 50% turnover rate . i saw it in the thumbnail but the reveal still got me . thats wild
I JUST FUCKING SCREAMED $35 USD A SECOND OUT LOUD. The industry standard for a second of full pose-to-pose animation- no autotweening, proper animation- is to take 8 hours. You create 1 second per 8 hours of work. I do understand that modern tools can make it a bit faster, and some full seconds take a lot less time than others, but fucking no. No, fuck them. Fuck them. $35/ second is not remotely correct. When I was doing tweening and cleanup, I was making only $12 an hour at times, but that was low level fucking grunt work, and I was working for indie projects with no fucking money. I wasn't getting $35 for 8 hours of work. That's insane. Absolutely no, this is actually not standard. Source: my goddamned useless fucking degree in animation and working in the industry I left for my own health.
I wanted to share about one of my concerns I had with Spidlehorse. Which is how it rushed things like just around July 26 of this year they announced that both Season 3 and 4 of Hazbin Hotel was announced to be on its way. The reason why that is a problem is when you announced the project back to back along with Season 2 being announced at the same time as Season 1 last year on September 28, 2023 alongside Season 3 and 4 of Helluva Boss being announced around May 25, 2023 and entered production at the same time. If the production of the show, film or any of the product was rushed as quickly as it is it could not only caused the decay in writing quality but also put pressure on the VFX, Animators along with other artist putting work into a product. One of the most infamous example of it is with the MCU during Phase 4 onwards with the VFX and writing quality ended up decaying due to being release back to back. That is the concern that should be talked about more due it effects both blockbusters and Indle projects
Hazbin is one of the strange instances where I can enjoy it even with the creator being a bad person that's still around. I, personally, have only ever been able to spearate the art from the artist when the artist is dead (like Lovecraft), but can understand how people can separate it when they're alive or can't separate it at all. So, I was trying to figure out how I could still separate it. However, I realized that it's because we've been waiting for so long for Hazbin to come out, and watching the Hunicast, that that's my interpretation of the characters. The actual show feels more like a fanfiction of the fandom's version because the fandom's version is both so much better and existed so much longer... Which, I'm grateful for. I'm happy I can enjoy these characters without that feeling of it being wrong.
I loved your last video. The bathtubs snake drawing is disturbing because it normalizes the sexualization of minors. For you not to care tells me one of two thing. You’re around the age of 17 so this doesn’t seem weird or you’re already normalized to people drawing underage characters in sexual situations which is a problem.
It's because everyone brings it up, it was years ago, and sometimes it really is pixels on screen, did she draw it to be edgy or for her own pleasure, or she was desensitized to it and drew it again to be edgy? Without context you really can't accuse someone being a zoo off of one image that was a singular instance. Using objective logic here (I'm saying it's still bad but focusing on that for her being a horrible person is weak and we should focus on the other arguments made)
@@holyhot-chocolate It liteally weirdly popped up in my recommendation. I think I've head a lot of the Spindle Horse stuff before but I'll see if there's anything new here.
Bathtub snakes thing is like, not much compared to everything else. It adds to her weirdness because why would anyone portray a minor like that. But in the grand scheme of things its not much, especially since theres OTHER harmful fictional portrayals that are actually harmful and portray harmful ideas in a strange romantisized light.
I just wanna thank you for talking about the bathtub snakes situation in an actually respectable and thought out manner. Like. It pisses me off when people go "but the character in the drawing is 17- this is glorifying-" for any slightly questionable art. Like yeah, if it was real it'd be a problem absolutely, but it isn't and its perfectly fine if not a little weird. Plus i think a lot of people fail to realize that liking weird fantasy content doesn't make you an evil person?? The point of fantasy is that you know in real life there are irreparable consequences to many a thing, but in your mind palace you can have just a little fun with zero consequences, its risk free. Im pretty sure its not rocket science last time i checked. Or maybe it is considering how many furries are in IT departments, i'll have to ask next meet-up lol
Its concerning how people care more about fictional characters like theyre real and not the real people that she hurt. Its that saying of "People on this app treat fictional characters like real people and real people like fictional characters". That phrase rings true every single time something like this happens. And its also extremely concerning that its children who do this.
@@MadjichenGiven how the stans fervently and rabidly defend Stolas... Yeah, they cannot differentiate between reality and fiction, and that's concerning.
Honestly, while I've always enjoyed Hazbin Hotel (mostly just the pilot) I've always been on the fence about Viv as a person and this has been enough to give me a reason to not like her
I haven't seen the image but based on your description I think people who find the bathtub snakes harmful are probably considering how it's contributing to the normalisation of sexualising minors online. In that way I do see how it could be/is harmful.
It's possible that some of animators are contractors which are people that sign a contract to work for you temporary. Some animators are contractors. Some of the animators that were contractors might have left since they already fulfilled their duty they had to do in their contract. That can explain the high turn over rate.
1k per week at 40 hours is only 25 per hour. Also any employer will flat out tell you the people who do better work in faster time get more money.... That makes sense. If Chris can do 15 units an hour vs Amy's 45, shouldn't she be paid more? Of course, EVERY employee should make a livable wage - that's a different story.
I love the series and the work you put in, bit can I make a little request ? Could you please make your videos a little louder, I have my phone on full volume yet struggle to hear what you are saying a lot of the time, but the moment I click something else the speakers blow out ^^*
"Animators get paid 35 dollars per second of animation! That's slav*ry" As someone who lives in Mexico it is sad to admit i know a lot of people who would gladly take the job before their current one. 20 dollars an hour sounds awesome too
I don't think the damn bathtub snakes are a big deal either 💀 Yeah it's fucking weird but didn't she draw it in like... highschool? Years ago? It's not enough to cancel her over when the actual bad stuff she does is worse.
Imma be fr withu chief. You DEFINITELY should script these videos. I mean the video is decent but the first part with the bathtub snakes could be been worded a bit better. It really makes you come off in a bad light. I know you didn't mean to but yeah. Furthermore a scripted video increases the likelihood of people reposting the video due to the higher quality, AND it makes it easier to comprehend. So yeah I'm not saying you should completely rewrite and reupload this but it would be helped if it was at least a bit scriped.
About a year ago maybe in early 2023, I stayed in Vegas for a while and attended my first expo convention where apparently Viv and her crew were showing up at the LVL expo for autographs and I really didn’t know a single thing about that convention since it was my first time, but anyway I got her autograph and as well as the main writer of Helluva Boss(somehow the first name that came to my mind name was Adam and nothing else), and as also the voice actor of Vaggie from the Pilot. Well at first I thought Viv, she was cool and all, really didn’t know anything about her background history or overall controversies, and also I at first didn’t want to get an autograph from any of the cast at all (because I was forced to or well I don’t know I wasn’t too interested in getting an autograph and just exploring everything else at the expo, since, like I said…. It was the first time I’ve ever been to a convention expo) So, anyways after I watched this video and too first part, I can conclude…. That vivziepop is still a bad person, and thank you so much for making me get a different view of this person. Also I like your content
If I had a nickel for everything someone with a silly little dog pfp that exposed someone that used to be beloved, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice! (I’m referring to dogpack404 in case if people were wondering)
Its so hard watching commentary videos about viv because on one hand its so interesting hearing about ALLL THE SHIT shes done but at some point i just feel bad for all yhw people she's fucked over and dont wanna watch anymorw,, Anyways that hasnt happened yet so BANGER video!!
The gaming company thing reminds me when I saw someone a year ago talking about how loona va thought she was doing voice lines for a furry fighting game but later on find out she wasn’t voice acting for a fighting game which was really weird
Math time even though I’m a bit late to the video. But let’s see. I couldn’t find an exact “how long does it take to animate_” because animation style, how many people are involved, and individual speed varies, but I got ranges from less than 1 second per day of work to 4. If we give Hazbin the absolute benefit of the doubt and say everyone is creating 4 seconds of animation a day, that would be 140$ a day for the 35 a second folks. If they’re working 8 hour days that’s 17.50$ an hour. 9 hour days it’s 15.50$ 10 hour days its 14$ And if crunch gets so bad that people are working 12 hour days (it can happen easily in this industry) people are looking at 11.60$/ hour. If I’m completely wrong on the math go ahead and let me know. What I do know is that at the standard 24fps, animators have to create 24 drawings for 35$. That’s 1.45$ per drawing. Also aren’t a bunch of these people living in California? Ain’t that place expensive?!
Unpopular opinion: Charlie & the settings were better in the pilot than the show. But I love Vaggie's design WAS SO MUCH BETTER. (Also Alastor needed to either have more reminiscing characteristics of a 1920s black man. Or he needs to be like the male version of the damn Beldam from Coraline. Or both) Also Fvck Vivziepop
“That’s a drawing” is crazy!! Suddenly Shadman is innocent. It’s really weird to not see an issue with someone fantasizing about or drawing things like that.
you mean when she was 16... like the situations are very different. it pains me that people that try to make viv into a bad person have to ignore important details
this video was much better compared to your other one bc you actually have evidence from people that worked at the studio this time. but I still feel as if you blow the wrong things out of proportion for example the 50% turnover rate: from what I've seen of the series, it has a very MAP (multiple animator project) vibe where each person is responsible for their own scene, and this way you can get a lot of hands on something and complete it quickly. so people won't really stay for multiple episodes, they'll just do a couple scenes from one episode. I know a lot of people (mostly online) that have animated like... a scene or two for helluva boss. so they probably just animate their one scene, and then leave bc they don't anticipate spending more time on the team. The pay is definitely disappointing to hear, especially with how successful the patreon seems to have been. I can't really speculate about hwere the money is going bc I don't have the books. but to claim "favoritism" speaks to your lack ofknowledge about the industry, which you admit to having no knowledge about several times. I feel what Adam MEANT to say was that people who DO stay and DO animate large chunks of the show get $1000 dollars per week, which is actually close to union wages. I felt as if he implied that those were poeple who animated for vivzie fulltime, as opposed to a lot of the part time positions that get shuffled around quickly (ergo the high turnover rate). either the article didn't include part of his messages, or Adam himself is very much not media trained and didn't elaborate on why some poeple get paid much more, because he probably assumed it would be self evident. so I understand why that looks really bad, but I honestly think it was miscommunication on his part, because there really is no other reason why the pay gap at spindlehorse would be so vast. I think this video brought up better points that actually hold their ground adn aren't just conjecture, but the way you react so intensely to a lot of more minor stuff tells me that you have absolutely no idea what the animation industry is like. I'm sad to hear about the lowball pay, especially since production has evolved since the earlier days, and the unprofessional environment is also saddening to hear, but it does not surprise me in the least. animation as a whole is a very chaotic industry. like any other job, you have shitty supervisors and shittier bosses. you have a very complex chain of command that requires several people to coordinate and not fuck it up, and inevitably someone does, which leads to crunch, delays, etc. etc. honestly the industry really freaks me out sometimes, and I haven't even broken into it yet. but the entertainment industry is just crazy, we don't get the luxuries most other jobs get because our job is "cool" and we're following our "passion" or something like that. so while it is disappointing to hear about low payment and organizational issues, I hope you hold the same standards to bigger, professional animation studios that have these exact same problems of crunch, underpayment, and disorganization.
BTW, I did some research into the animation industry: the vast majority of ALL animation studios show a turnover rate equal to Viv’s if not higher. 50-80% of new artists are usually let go after a year. Project hires are pretty common ya know….
Really? Can you link your sources? I tried to look into it (I'd say I made an effort that was more than token, but less than substantial) and didn't really find anything.
... Tony Raphielle p much bullied a friend of mine for liking a certian character (thrax) ,,, also vivzie p much harassed my friends,,, i dont think im gonna say details on what happened since i dont... know much, but tbh... i dont want to go near them lmao, so yeah, 🤪🤪 I am an,,, ex vivzie pop helluva boss,,, i used to watch hazbin by only the pilot, (helluva was... idk... ten episodes...? or something? ) but i stopped watching that content due to... getting tired of trying to catch up with that,,, i guess, it felt annoying seeing popularity swim out with it, but yeah im... not gonna look into it, im not motivated yet until i guess.. it ages for years or something... i wouldnt know, I used to have a character crush on angel dust but i was sure it was temporary . plus,,, i.. did sorta had issues with the canon stuff but i get it abt their characters and sexuality i guess. but yeah, whatever,. sorry to fans who think ive been missing out- I just... dont wanna support vivzie pop anymore i.. used to like the art style... but idk why it felt like it rubbed me the wrong way now.. but yeah, im tired lol . i came her because i was curious of what chaotic shit this vivzie pop did, or something,,, as much i dont engage the content,, i respect everybody's interests of the show, i just.... dont really look into it like what i used to-
I’ve really enjoyed your videos on this topic so far, I don’t mind you not having a script. However I do take issue with how you addressed the the bathtub snakes situation. I had not heard of it before these videos. Even if you personally don’t think there’s an issue with drawing that kind of content I do think it’s important, as someone making a critical docuseries, to address the valid concerns. What you said about how you don’t think anyone will get hurt is dismissive of the greater implications that kind of art can have and is frankly the same excuse people use for lolicon. That type of art normalizes minors in erotic situations. Something that shouldn’t be happening at all. I’m not saying this be hateful. Like I said I’ve enjoyed these videos so far but I do think this issue could have been addressed better.
Wait okay but $ 1,000 per week makes for about $ 4,000 per month and $ 20 per hour with a 40h/week job makes for about $ 3,200/month, right? That’s still $ 800 of a difference and sorta messed up, but it’s not, like, one is earning $ 1,000/month and the other a million.
i don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the nature and wildlife videos in the background are super calming and engaging :3 i can watch cute creatures while hearing drama
completely my opinion but the reason that snake drawing doesn't matter as much is for the same reasons as in the video but also when people are getting laid off, losing money, you cant talk about kinky art in the same vain
I... I don't even know what to say. I'm less pissed and more sad... now I feel sh@t. Great video. I love Helluv and Hazbin. They both inspire me- Hell, Michael as Angel made me discover I was bi. Thanks, Mike. But god... I never knew any of this... The fandom is good, I know them, the nice and talented people... I-I'm gonna go check on them and ask that, as well as a way to cheer me up. Thank you. Yet another person I looked up turned out to be sh@t. First Goldenbox, now this... Yeah, I'm definitely gonna be sad for the rest of the day (nothing against you). I hope everyone here has a good day.
Hey, dude, hope you're doing fine and I can get that none of this is easy to process, just stay safe and keep yourself around your friends keeping a healthy environment, alright?
@@ThePaupepa Yeah, I'm good, thanks for asking. I just felt sh@t more than anything. And the whole "can I trust the fandom" thing was quickly resolved when I saw all the kind things the fans have done and all the brilliant works of art/writing/creating, etc- they have all done for the sheer love of Helluva and Hazbin. They're good people, and I'll happily defend them from people saying they're terrible and scorn those who ruin the community. Viv is terrible - god saying that is both surreal and soul destroying -, before I would call her bad, but in the terms that we've all done bad stuff, we've all made a girl in a bathtub full of snakes once in our lives (I used that of all things as a metaphor). But all of THIS... no, you're bad, you're terrible for doing this, you throw your friends under the bus, leave these people behind, have the gull to say, "You guys can't use MY characters, during a charity for a cast members husbands memorial". I don't care what people say. She doesn't own those characters; everyone who worked, supported and funded Hazbin/Helluva owns them as much as she does. They've done more work with them than you ever will, Viv. Okay, I'm just venting right now, sorry... I looked up to you, Viv. You are the prime example of the underdog, the person who gave me the inspiration to try and make my dreams come true, to flip off the big white-collar corporate pigs, and tell them to suck it! You inspired me, and still do, more your works inspire me, and I will follow them to the end and not give a single crap about you. Angel helped me find a part of myself I didn't know existed. Blitz made me feel comforted, knowing I'm not the only person who fears dying alone and being forgotten. I will follow IMP to the end. I will follow Charlie and everyone damn person in that Hotel, TO. THE. END. And you, Viv, can't ruin it for me. OKAY, that's enough venting from me, sorry. Sorry for the roughly three hundred words. I'm doing okay, and I hope you're doing well too. Now, don't mind me, I'm gonna write something now, c'ya. - PS: Just before I go. Now, I understand why people want Viv cancelled, but that does not mean I condone those people's actions against, Viv. AKA: Stalking and sending her blended cat videos. I dunno, to me, stuff like that is immature and breeds nothing good for anyone. Okay, that's enough of me, bye. :)
@@ieuansmith518 Oh damn, you are really passionate about this, why don't you try your hand at fix-it fanfics? I've heard they're plenty of fun to write and can actually help you with the vent process as well. And hey, I get it, I also thought back then that Viv was a wonderful person and a role model of an artist, just to feel how everything shattered into a million pieces as I saw how Helluva ended up in a perpetual circle of the same character arcs over and over again, besides seeing some very condemning evidence against her (the Erin / Ken situation) which made me realize that Viv isn't a good person at all. And agreed on the last part, while Viv is a terrible person, stalking and sending death threats to her won't help anyone and it's counterproductive, and also immature, like you've said. And lastly, stick with those friends of yours, because they may as well be the few sane people in the Viv cult fandom that Viv herself cultivated over the years. Have a good day, and please, stay safe!
Shout out to Keith David. One of the greatest actors of all time and now he's gotta deal with this shit
going from the ARBITER to a gay furry is a downgrade that needs to be studied😭🙏
@@robodude145 I'm so confused by this comment. I don't get what's wrong with being gay. You could say it's kinda weird to be a furry lol, but still
@@reoij Furry Community are 90% Gay and Husk is a cat with wings which it's a common design for furries OCs
I'm not sure why you took offense on that person's comment, it doesn't even sound malicious
You are aware that he likes working on the show right? He willingly chose to be the voice actor for Husk
OK, in all likelyhood, since Keith is a top celeb and a main cast member, he likely gains Viv's favor and she and by extension the rest of Spindlehorse probably treats him better than the animators due to bias and favorability. So he's likely just having the time of his life. Plus, he's a voice acting veteran so they're gonna have to treat him with respect.
I feel bad the most for all the artists and animators who were mistreated by Spindlehorse.
Another kinda shitty thing she did was Invader Zim and Hot Topic had a T shirt design contest and the winner would get paid for their design and win an art tablet. She publicly posted her design on Twitter so all her fans would vote for her. People called her out because it was super unfair to new and struggling artists.
Oh that’s mad silly
Oh boo-hoo
@@Bryce946 You obviously have no talent of any kind whatsoever so it's understandable how you wouldn't understand how small artists feel.
It's not a big deal. It was a great opportunity and she took it
@@Cherry-ki3lndude, she can pay for a fucking new tablet, she's straight up denying the possibility for other less economically fortunate individuals to get a chance at their dreams.
When the allegations about Spindlehorse’s low pay came up, a lot of people made excuses for it because it’s an indie production, ignoring the fact that Vivziepop is an extremely well off person who can afford going on monthly vacations and expensive Broadway shows but somehow pays her animators so low they can barely afford rent (not helped by the fact that they’re also overworked at the same time).
Shes been bleeding animators so much that I remember seeing animation directors ask for animators after EVERY episode and even Viv herself began to beg for animators. And then of course, she switched to outsourcing because it’s even cheaper.
I swear she made a company an unnecessary and oppressive system just so she could afford having Kesha voice her shitty wolf girl OC
Realize she was waiting for the Dr. Luke case to go through under wraps while begging and pleading for her to voice in her series..... kesha legally didn't sing it was another actress..... funny how the fandom just excuses how much she pays for expensive actors and voices despite having humble indie roots she basically abandoned literally everyone from the pilot....
This woman litterally bought two very expensive peacock taxidermy (thanks for a correction) and one was almost 3 thousand and the second was 3 thousand and around 500
So um?
And she doesn't want her workers to work at other indie companies wich is just fucking crazy 💀
She wildin bro
@@Rattie_Loverfun fact the creator of Ollie and Scoops confirmed this and he DEFENDED her for it, saying she was simply looking out for the animators.
Yes that makes perfect sense. People are so underpaid and overworked they still need to find a second/third job and Viv refuses to let it happen… Viv is so kind ❤️
@@Birdyboys i know right? She's basically like Mr.Beast! Just smaller! (If you know, you know.)
@@Rattie_Lover sounds like andrew hussie (homestuck) when he bought a 5k painting with ryan norths credit card for some reason
Imagine being a regular at her studio, and getting payed overwhelmingly less than the freelancer💀 her priorities are missing
I actually once sent an application for one of the jobs for Spindlehorse (I think that it was for a storyboard position) some months ago before I’ve heard of all this drama, I never got the job and when I looked into the low pay and seeing how professional animators said that it was low, I felt disgusted.
And when I’ve heard of the amount of people leaving the job, that really shocked me. I feel like I’m glad I never got the job to save the pain of working with crummy conditions, but I’m also worried on how much worse is everything behind Spindlehorse to warrent such toxicity, favouritism and other things.
I remember I wanted to apply just for the experience but I want to love myself.
It's hard to talk about it considering that the animation industry has an inner circle of everyone knowing each other. Even when people do talk about the working conditions, it's a bad reputation for them and will have them out of work. It's already a competitive industry so this makes it 10x worse. It's shitty but that's unfortunately how it is....
You know things gonna get serious when someone pulls up with a spreadsheet
I was bored during finals week and I had heavy doubts about the "Spindlehorse has burned through 444 employees" claim, lol
@@garbagedataraccoon This fella straight a menace to shit artists like Medrano, pulling out god's work.
@@ethangnasher3848 I was bored
**NOTE: I AM THE SPREADSHEET GUY**
Goodness, I didn't expect you to do the data analysis for me. I saw someone (rightfully) point out that someone not working on an episode doesn't mean they left, so that's important to keep in mind - but I am pretty grateful that you did what you did with the data.
Also, I might, just might, update the original sheet that you made your own copy of with info from the 2 shorts that have come out since Hell's Belles. We'll see if my motivation holds.
Thank you for this amazing work 👏🏿
Thank you so much for your contributions.
Thank you. As an a guy that left animation work because of the everything around it, thank you for doing this kind of work.
Literally saw a post on tumblr of someone accusing you of being pr0shipper because you didn't delve into the bathtub snakes stuff and hate on viv for that. Like, I myself am extremely sensitive to anything involving morally reprehensible things, but even I was like: you've got to be kidding, we can't be accusing people of liking animals and children because they didn't want to accuse someone of a serious crime over a cringe drawing😭 like LOG OFF
I saw that post too and for some reason they refused to reply to those asking why they considered them a proshipper.
They throw a bunch of accusations towards Vivziepop and Brandon Rodgers as well. They call em pedos but like... There's no evidence. I dislike em too but that's way too far.
Proshipping discourse is such an absolute plague, and I'm someone who's against proshipping myself
its not a cringe drawing its child/animal pornography bro 😭like i agree with not accusing her of a serious crime but still, her actions do not exist in a vaccum. she still made the concious decision to draw and post that shit
@@hyderflayer It's a highly stylized cartoon drawing of a character design assigned an arbitrary age. If Vivzie stated the character to be 18 or older, no one would think anything of it because of how ambiguous her style is.
You opened Tumblr, that was your first mistake
Spindelhorses pay is so low it killed my grandma
"Why do you hate Spindlehorse?"
"Because Spindlehorse salaries killed my grandma ok?"
@@pawnhearts8785
“My uncle broke his neck making a storyboard for Spindlehorse once.”
@@pawnhearts8785how did.. spindlehorse’s pay kill your grandma..? What show was she working for?
@@circlefaux I was the one working 😞
this comment thread is crazy
i dont mind there being no script its still fire🗣🗣🗣
If I did an unscripted video it would be like me talking to a school counselor stumbling through the conversation. I think you did great both videos. I knew it was a mess but she must have been so hard to work with. I feel so bad for hunnycast still.
No script and still more scripted then any vivziepop work
True
@@snowpawwildcraft6276 realll
@@snowpawwildcraft6276Agree, at the least the focus is actually clear.
I really hope they don't get an hr department. For those of you who don't know hr is there solely for the purpose of protecting the assets of the company and not the employee. Always document everything and send management an email whenever there's a conversation being had with them.
There is no HR it's Sam and Adam.
@@CyburimOh god, not Sam Miller. If there's anyone worse than Viv, it's legit her. A vile controlling bully that only got into power due to being Viv's closest friend. Though Viv is still awful due to enabling Sam's behavior.
lol i dont think so, the show literally makes a joke about hr
Tbh, the employees are considered assets if you make yourself to be one. Do not be a liability, or they won't care about you
@@DrAngelKins lmao 🤡🤡🤡🤡
Can’t wait for the Vivziepop defenders try to debunk these claims, you did great! 💕💕
Also I’m not a Vivziepop fan I should’ve said that before 😭
They have tried already... By not knowing how to switch tabs in a Google Sheet. Forgivable, but cringe
There’s a couple already.
@@Boinky_Spoinky ayy lmao writing up a video as we speak
@@Boinky_Spoinky i mean one claims is literally them not being able to read properly soo and shoving words in mouth so....
While I don't agree with your stance on The Snake Drawing(tm) I do agree that it's, like, the least of the concern here. It's weird and gross but it's SO old and she is actively harming people NOW, there's bigger fish to fry
Exactly! Drawing was weird but she's done so much more that it's basically miniscule in comparison
Exactly
Yeppers
Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss are like a guilty pleasure for me at this point..The art/designs are appealing to my inner teenage self, meanwhile the older me in the present can find and point out all the awful things in these shows, poor writing, etc etc..Maybe I want to see it improve or see how bad it'll get.
As for Vivziepop herself, she's always been setup to be this way considering I've followed her back in her "music video" days (yeah we're both in our 30s). Take this with a grain of salt, but I remember seeing a live stream of hers years ago, which she deleted, that she went through her college years with professors not giving her an ounce of critique on her work, hence why she doesn't respond to being called out too well.
You don't have to believe me, but I say it basically explains a lot from her behavior thus far then you gotta add in the part of her stans making it even worse..
I'd believe you about the art college thing, I'm not from the US, but Europe follows a lot of what the US does and the "not critiquing students, because they might get offended and syke their parents at the teacher" Trend is more and more common.
If she was in my class (about 5 years ago) she would NOT survive the psychological torment our art teacher exacted on us, bro would just casually tell you that you should put a bow on yourself and lay down under a Christmas tree to tell your parents that 4 years isn't enough (that's how long you go to highschool here), or how he would ""congratulate"" You on inventing a triangle (we're jewel designers).
tbh I appreciate his style of teaching more and more every day and I miss him and his supernatural talent to speak perfect deadpan sarcasm while annihilating your hopes and dreams.
@@lumiauroras6741 She would have been in college around the same time when I was working towards my Web Design degree. You basically proved a point of mine..I always felt like if she went to an art college outside of the US around that time in the past..Those professors would have put her through the ringer probably.
I have to agree with you. I really like the potential of the show, but I don't believe the writing will improve. It just keeps getting worse. I’ve lost faith in that, and I feel like Viv will keep doing these terrible things to her animators as long as she can get away with it. Honestly, it makes me sad watching these videos because I don't want to support the show anymore after hearing everything she’s done.
@@Nessus. I've resorted to just watch Hazbin on "free to watch" sites instead of watching it on Amazon. Not going to give Viv a cent of my view money..
Fun fact, I found an art professor on RUclips who had her as a student and went through her sketchbook (he did this with all his students) and I remember he gave her a lot of praise for how much work she did. She studied in New York I think?
50% turnover rate is so fucking insane like bro HOW
Im seriously considering dropping hazbin & helluva entirely the creator is awful the fandom is awful the writing now that im grown is I see is either bad or just 3 troupes of daddy issues,heartbreak or trauma re bounding most of the community has this cult type mindset of defend the leader cause most have been there since early or late teens like myself & some still defend as an adult which is concerning they have a para social relationship which is not healthy
Disregarding vivs everything, you can still watch things while acknowledging the are flawed if you still want to watch either show
Hey, guy who did the data gathering for the spreadsheet here. *Look at fan content*. I dislike Hazbin and Helluva, I really do! However, I've actually managed to enjoy some of its fan content.
The fans don't exploit others' labor. The fans ARE the laborers. Even if a given fan creator has Medrano's boot so far down their throat that they're shitting leather, they'll still likely have better writing in their fan stories than what we see in canon.
Legit, have a look at First Man Down and Owl's Hell that Ends Well. First Man Down is GREAT.
I am those close to dropping it too lol I can't with this b
Hey, no need to drop Hazbin / Helluva fully, you can actually just drop the "canon" version of it and stick with the "fanon" interpretations and headcanons, I mean, that's what fanfiction is for lol
I’m not surprised to hear that Vivzie’s turnover rate is terrible; her company is shitty, and so on.
Very nice video, very well done.
The animation industry is so terribly exploitative and a nightmare for many small artists. It desperately needs some standards, especially in countries like Japan and South Korea, where most popular tv shows are animated. Hopefully getting more eyes on Spindlehorse will allow people to see these flaws in the animation industry, rather than only becoming a hinderance on indie animation, or just another fault of Medrano. While I'm not fond of Medrano, I do believe she's part of a bigger issue rather than just a singular problem, and the last thing I want is for this situation to become another example of women in the industry being scorned for less than what the larger powers get away with.
It's 4 am, I just started this video, and I am cackling about the snake bathtub commentary
24:55 - Blitzo's *"I'll call HR!"* joke from Spring Broken hits very differently now...
The thumbnail definitely a step up from the first. Great video as always.
Edit: The 50% turnover rate reveal made my jaw drop
Having questionable tastes and drawing them is in no way at the same level as stabbing your friends in the back after they worked relentlessly for your success. Her offense is beyond most crimes to me, let alone stupid proshipper vs antishipper Twitter debates.
This has to be the second time someone has refered to Viv as lolcow equivalent and I still can’t get over how accurate it seems to be
She has almost every attribute to a lolcow. She even has her own thread on those forums.
Viv is not beating those "Chris Chan/Andrew Dobson but successful" allegations
@@pawnhearts8785or Keffals
@@pawnhearts8785 How are they at all comparable? And who is Andrew Dobson?
@@Jdudec367 Dobson aka Tom Preston is the artist behind "So, You're a Cartoonist?"
About the snake tub drawing I actually remember that character being 18 back when I read the comics like 💀
These two videos have helped a lot because I kept seeing people saying Vivziepop is a horrible person. Even my friend in real life has told me she is terrible and I had no idea why and I didnt even know where to start
Yeah honestly with all the white knights and coverups and people coming up with excuses it’s almost impossible to find correct information
The thing about being indie is that you can't afford to underpay and abuse your employees because you don't have as many resources as Netflix or Amazon. It's actually more cost effective to treat your employees fairly because if they enjoy what they are doing, it will show in the final product which will result in more exposure and better sales.
For an example, Chad Moldenhauer (I forgor how to spell his last name sorry), the director of Cuphead, refused to implement crunch time (a major problem in the development of video games) and was perfectly okay with the DLC being on hold for as long as it did so long as his employees were paid well and had days off. The DLC then broke records shortly after it came out by being the highest-selling DLC in just under _a week_ .
In a similar vein, the quality of Hazbin and Helluva has drastically dropped, in both writing and animation, and it backs up that 50% turnover rate.
Yeah last vid was fire, unscripted oration was a good choice.
The worst thing that happens is you cover a point and then rehash that same point shortly after.
Personally, I enjoyed the semi frequent rehashes. Felt like listening to someone candidly rant.
great video, commenting for that good ol' algorithm. So strange these "indie" studios seems to be so...corporate, it's almost like it's not indie, and these aren't good people.
I mean there are other indie "studios" like glitch productions, lackadaisy's team, sr pelo and Joel g's team.
Saying that to remind other indie projects are not as bad (as far as we currently know) as spindlehorse.
There may be quite a few indie creators turning big rich and corporate, but there's still TONS of indie creators that stayed true to, well, being indie and not a conglomerate. Just because Vivzie turned out this way doesn't mean there's no indie out there at all!
Tbh, I think viv is worse then disney themselves
yeah kinda crazy how theyre justifying the low pay because its "indie" but Hazbin Hotel was literally picked up by two production companies. like yeah okay maybe you could justify it being indie for Hellava Boss but definitely not for Hazbin Hotel
Part 3 pls🙏😭 This woman has hurt so many, and people need to know about this😭
frrrr
I never understood the method of high turnover employment. Doing this so often will literally make the animation production have more delays, and it can cost more in the long run with both money and morals.
An annoying thing about hazbin fans is they pretend the show is like a smart and edgy/clever dive into morality, good and evil, and hypocrisy when the show literally excuses murderers, cannibals, naxis, rapists ect. as "innocent" and also fails to give any explanation for how morals work in its universe giving yhe excuse that nobody knows what gets u into heaven
It doesn't take world building or it's narrative seriously. Honestly, it's only set in Hell because it's cool. Because it allows furries and demons to exist, because Viv is an oc artist at heart. She has even admitted to being a bad writer, and not knowing how to write, so I'm not surprised she doesn't care about the *point* of Helluva & Hazbin. World building in the way you mentioned would give both shows more direction, but nah, goofy subplots instead of the cool shit we really want out of one of the only shows based in Hell.
@@SodaFrizz666Okay whats the point of caring about her stuff if shes not gonna bother to hire a better writer or work on improving her own skills? Is it just because she wants to be one of the big shots? Being surrounded by her idols 24/7? If that's all there is to it then that is such a lame path for an artist/"storyteller" to go down on.
When did the show excuse any of that? It never even mentioned nazis, I think what's annoying is when I hea claims like this but I never see anything like that really happening. Like when do they call them innocent? They clealy don't call Valentino or Alasor innocent for example and they are clearly evil. Isn't the explanation that morally bad people get sent to Hell?
@@Jdudec367 they excuse it when they charlie says to Adam that the souls in hell are exactly the same as the souls in heaven and when Emily says that the souls in hell are innocent. Nazis are mentioned when in helluva boss s1e1 Mayberry says "you do everything right, then one bad day and u end up with the Hitlers and Epsteins of the world."
@@Jdudec367 charlie tells Adam that the souls in hell are just like the souls in heaven, and Emily says "how can I stand by when thousands of innocent souls are being murdered." In helluva boss s1e1 Mayberry says something along the lines of how she ended up in hell with the "H*tlers and Ep stiens of the world." Fans also often say that the sinners aren't bad, they just made some poor choices in life then they unfairly got sent to hell because of it when all the sinners in hell are blatantly shown commiting evil acts and the backstories for all the main characters involve them all having done horrendous evil things that got them all sent to hell
What gets me annoyed is hazbin could have been GREAT the plot is interesting. But she fumbled so bad. So many plot holes in the show super rushed bad writing the songs are decent. But This is something that had gotten SO BIG and it’s so so new!! While my personal favorite lackadaisy has been going on since 2006. Has good writing and design no plot holes so far and a fun premise!! They have two Creole characters who do voodoo who are handled SO MUCH BETTER than Alastor!! There’s still so much mistery and it’s so fun!! And people hate on it for some reason. But it has so much good art and writing BUT NO THIS IS WHAT IS THE FACE OF INDIE. It’s not even indie anymore!!! It’s on Amazon!! Ok my rant is over.
P.s. Lackadaisy is great watch it :D
The "Roo" leaks really cemented for me, when I saw them, how much even Viv's own staff hates her and for good reason.
What Roo leaks? I only saw tweets from Viv herself confirming her existence
I cant find amything about this roo leaks
@@taniatokustar7737 see my other reply here to Birdyboys
@@Birdyboys The comment won't post maybe I set off a spam filter or something but some supposed DM leaks on four chan can be found if you google the co archive and search for Roo Leaks you'll find them
They were posted in late December before HH released and given what we saw in S1 I'm inclined to believe them
In the screenshots, a leaker reveals that Viv talks all the time in conference calls about the big reveal of HH being that Roo is the Big Bad, Eve wants revenge on heaven for being framed for the fall of man, and that Rosie is Lilith is in disguise (also Eve and Lilith switched places? A "Sweeny Todd" situation according to the leaker, which idk I'm not familiar with musicals)
The leaker mocks Viv for thinking she's clever and bragging about how smart the writing is and how there's so many "hints" in the HH and HB
@@Birdyboys I've tried two times to reply and give an answer but either OP is deleting my comments or I've been filtered out
50%?!?! And that wasn’t even their lowest rate???? Jesus. I’ve felt sketched out about vivzie for a good while cause the amount of controversies she’s gotten herself into isn’t a coincidence. Some were petty and could easily be brushed off, but after the hh pilot, I started getting a weird feeling about her and I never could pinpoint it. I’m glad people are realizing and researching into who she really is.
Please make more videos like this, commentary with the unrelated footage. It’s amazing! Even on different topics, I love having something to listen to when drawing or driving
I’ve been waiting for this. Here is a virtual watermelon margarita.
More like a glass of garbage water
@@Randomyoutuber-4831Why?
@@ThePaupepa because it’s the same hollow rumors and baseless claims that have been getting thrown around for years now. Practically everything in this video can be easily disproven because it uses the shakiest, most unsubstantiated claims ever.
If all you’ve got to go on are instagram photos and Twitter posts. You’re not making a solid argument.
@@Randomyoutuber-4831Bad bait.
@@Dr.Oofers Be honest, what do you actually think this video is going to accomplish?
Shaking her base? Most of them aren't even deep enough into the rabbit hole to see this and those that are fall into one of two categories: people who are part of the anti community like you who came in to have their views confirmed or people like me who stan Viv that have already written stuff like this off as nonsense. The amount of people actually convinced by this won't even be a drop in the bucket.
Canceling Hazbin? It's being run by Amazon, who's CEO is practically the poster child for corporate greed. Even if these claims are true, upper management at Amazon won't even blink. Especially since a lot of worse people have put series on there. Not to mention that Hazbin has been one of the most successful shows on the platform to date and even got a Hot Topic merch line.
Getting rid of Helluva Boss? RUclips allows people like Mr.Beast and Logan Paul to run free with little more than a slap on the wrist for behavior that is arguably WORSE than Viv. They won't even touch her.
Bringing change to the industry? Harassing Viv won't accomplish that. Not when there's way bigger targets like the people in charge of Spider-Verse have been openly abusing their animators and yet still people are chomping at the bit to see the next movie; and that's actually been proven without a shadow of a doubt! If people don't care about that, they won't care about Spindlehorse.
Tl:Dr: the impact this will have on literally anything will be like throwing a soda can full of pee into the Atlantic ocean. Nobody will even notice.
50% between episodes... Half the staff *per episode*
Christ
It was 10% per episode, 50% per year, still damn insane
Watching this person who you followed since 2016 who was once a simple artist that did speed drawings and made Zoophobia, become this insanely well known person drenched in controversy who created two terrible shows, is like watching an empire being built and then slowly crumble down over time.
i like that there isnt a script because it feels like a real person talking to me, plus its longer so i can relax while doing other things
That joke in helluva boss about HR aged verrryyy poorly 😭
I'm glad its starting to come out how very manipulative and deceitful Vivzie is. Along with how mediocrely written both shows really are. Its a shame, regardless of what she's done, because both shows have great concepts and amazing potential- just that the shittiest person (& writer) made it. And then said person became rich and corporate as hell. Really adds the icing on the cake!
You speak so eloquently and profound, I almost can’t believe these are videos about Hazbin Hotel of all things. I mean genuinely, “you should take joy where you can get it” is such an amazing piece of advice. I mean it’s obvious, but it’s important to put things into perspective and recognize that happiness is a fleeting precious thing that you should take advantage of. I just really enjoy that sentiment and it made me feel pretty good. Thanks!
I've been waiting so hard for this i nearly pissed myself.
Also, i love these not being scripted, i just love to listen to you talk, you have such a pleasant voice and manner of speech.
Not Viv publicly agreeing that the animators working ON HER PROJECTS shouldn’t be paid peanuts like it’s not well within her power, if not her actual responsibility to do something about it 💀💀💀
50% turnover rate is crazy😭😭 also great video! I just watched part 1 and loved it! This series is so informative since I didn't know why people disliked her, so this really helped me understand why
Oh hey, there's my friend Chai at 17:07! He's the one who's constantly stalked, harassed, and brought up by NorryNator and DJ Blitz. I'm sure he'd be willing to ask any questions if you'd ever want to talk to him, AS!
wait I was told Chai was weird...I used to be mutuals with him?
@@ujivoice Could you elaborate by "weird"? He's been my friend for years. I've seen what people have said about him and they blow it way out of proportion.
the biggest thing is that he ships toothless and hiccup i think? and his profile picture is an explicit image that's been cropped?
not much but i know i and a few others distanced when it came out about this. its been a while so i can't really remember much, sorry
@@ujivoice Okay, well, for the first one, dragons aren't real. So that's not a problem. The only ships Chai likes are with adults, so when Hiccup is all grown up. It's like how he ships Beetlebabes (which Lydia's actress, Winona Ryder, also approves of).
The profile picture is of his adult character drawn in chibi style. That's it.
I don't think it's a good thing even regardless of if the actor ships it
that's still a child and an adult. it is rape and if Chai ships them then that is disgusting and so are you for thinking that is okay. he is a proshipper and that is ironic given he called Vivzie out for hiring proshippers and being a proshipper
You are the only person i came across who tackles the issues around vivziepop in a mature way. I learnt so much from your videos.
I also absolutely despise how everytime her negative behaviour is brought up, people only mention her cringey drawings. As if there aren't millions of cringey drawings made by teens and young adults out there. This phase is more common than some of you may think
She made the bathtub snakes image when she was in college as an adult tho..... just saying......... I feel like most people forget that she's in her mid 30s now........🎉
Thanks I was feeling depressed today but playing this in the background helped me do the dishes and fold all my clothes.
I wanted to thank you. The last video really, definitely changed my mind about everything. Before this I really did think all criticism of Vivziepop was essentially nothingburgers of weird people fixated on cringe drawings years ago, or nitpicks, or things that could otherwise mostly be excused. Like? Yeah I see why the Voodoo thing was bad, but it really is hard to care about snakes in bathtubs and it is really, really hard to see more substantial claims when everyone just brought stuff of that caliber up.
The way you organized these videos, combined with your clarity of thought and personability of presentation, absolutely shifted my views. Fantastic work, thank you for all the research. ❤
When I saw you posted again I became like that guy standing in front of a burning building rioting while holding a sign over his head, I was so excited to hear part two
On the "$1000 a week" thing.... The rest of the artists, if the numbers are to be believed, made $3200 a month, as opposed to the favored artists making $4000. That's a difference of $200 a week. That's a difference of $5 an hour.
In order to be angry about this particular part, I'd have to know what their standards for being the higher paid artist were on a week to week basis (or even month to month). Regardless, it's a bit of a toxic environment to have the pay go up and down so wildly. Bonuses are a nice incentive, but this kind of swing in pay doesn't encourage people much. it isn't a high enough pay increase to really encourage people to keep going above and beyond serves only to split the artists into two groups arbitrarily.
Nothing wrong with paying the better workers more money, but making it public, and shoving it into peoples' faces as an "incentive" is just dumb.
I feel like the problem with your first take about the bath tubs snakes is something doesn't need to be dangerous in order to be problematic. Is someone is getting off to the idea of a child in that position, it automatically makes them suspicious. Why is someone drawing children in such a way?
Something doesn't need to create harm to real children in order to tell us something about the creator
At best, it makes her look foolish and misguided at that point in her life. She's drawn more than just that of Addi (zpanswers cough cough), but thankfully the infamous snake illustrations in particular didn't show anything below the waist.
Even though she wasn't more than a few years out of high school, drawing porn of high schoolers is strange. Come on. College students are just high schoolers who are 1) adults and 2) probably in debt. High schoolers are more often than not still children. Easy decision.
It's been done to death, and the Viv stans hate us doing it to death, but it's still not a good look, yknow?
let's reword this so that it's correct. i don't like a when viv was 16 and drew her oc in a way that i consider is problematic but forget all the context and now have to make leaps of logics that somehow it's dangerous ignoring that she herself was a kid. it's really dumb how people stuff up or just ignore context to make her seem bad.
@@trg2516 Vivienne Medrano was not sixteen when she drew that particular image, she was nineteen. Furthermore, she also drew Gustav and Addi having sex and stuck it on her zpanswers Tumblr blog around the same time. Yes, it's talked about a LOT, but there's just. So much misinformation about what actually happened and why it's messed up
@garbagedataraccoon correction she was. there's to many sources dating the picture in which she was 16 even older sources date it around 16-17. even when the outrage wasn't around and very small. On top of that a 17, with 19 years old, even in the real world. Nobody has a problem with unless you're a Puritan. Even the USA doesn't care. might be weird to post but nothing more.
whats crazy about all of this is the fact that both of her shows, even the one picked up by two production companies, have mediocre writing at best and borderline juvenile writing at worse. the quality is just not there and i dont even think they have outlines about where they want both series to go. yet Vivienne seems to think that she's a genius and can get away with treating the animators (who bring her show to life and help pay her bills) like crap
You people keep saying that and I have no f*cking idea what you mean when you say the show has bad writing; apart from extremely vague ‘vibes’, bad faith interpretations, and stuff that’s flat out not true.
The show had the biggest debut of any animated series on Prime, beating out invincible and the legends of Vox Machina, not to mention it got positive reviews from professional critics and not pretentious RUclipsrs passing themselves off as critics. Viv is doing SOMETHING right with her writing and I sincerely pity your inability to see that
@@Randomyoutuber-4831calm down there buddy XD
@@joemama1132 oh f*ck off. I’m sick of idiots like you screaming in my ear about how bad my favorite show is based upon the stupidest arguments I’ve ever heard
back when the payment controversy happened in January come out the person behind the Passionfruit article actually reached out to me and asked for a curated animator spreadsheet which details the pros and cons of multiple studios, one of which being SpindleHorse, so I sent him it. he didn't use it in the article but told me it was used for referencing
I initially asked to remain anonymous because Vivzie's fans are...very aggressive if they know who to look for. but seeing as this topic is becoming more prevalent it feels a bit safer to say this 😭😭
The snake 'n p3do drawings was something she's already addressed 'n apologized for, which I've heard was due to traumatic reasons in her personal life, also was drawn when she was younger 'n stopped at the age of 19-21.
As much as the point is that a minor character is placed in a sxual situation- regardless real or fake- she's also drawn that years ago, with a possibility of it being a trauma response, my worries that come with it is who she associates with, more so than that she's done it years ago.
She's friends with proshippers, and while proshipping isn't always p3dophilia 'n Z00philia, that's still concerning esp if a person isn't using it to cope, but rather attracted to it.
Thank god this is the most rational comment I saw relating to this. I boost.
Viv was a mutual of Kyle Carrozza after all
OOHH YESS IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THISSS !! i dont mind there being a script honestly ! i enjoyed the last video a lot and i like the way you cover everything , thank u for ur work i really appreciate it
also wow 50% turnover rate . i saw it in the thumbnail but the reveal still got me . thats wild
I JUST FUCKING SCREAMED $35 USD A SECOND OUT LOUD. The industry standard for a second of full pose-to-pose animation- no autotweening, proper animation- is to take 8 hours. You create 1 second per 8 hours of work. I do understand that modern tools can make it a bit faster, and some full seconds take a lot less time than others, but fucking no. No, fuck them. Fuck them. $35/ second is not remotely correct.
When I was doing tweening and cleanup, I was making only $12 an hour at times, but that was low level fucking grunt work, and I was working for indie projects with no fucking money. I wasn't getting $35 for 8 hours of work. That's insane. Absolutely no, this is actually not standard.
Source: my goddamned useless fucking degree in animation and working in the industry I left for my own health.
Hope the streamly Pilot VA signings get mentioned.
What’s that about?
I wanted to share about one of my concerns I had with Spidlehorse. Which is how it rushed things like just around July 26 of this year they announced that both Season 3 and 4 of Hazbin Hotel was announced to be on its way. The reason why that is a problem is when you announced the project back to back along with Season 2 being announced at the same time as Season 1 last year on September 28, 2023 alongside Season 3 and 4 of Helluva Boss being announced around May 25, 2023 and entered production at the same time.
If the production of the show, film or any of the product was rushed as quickly as it is it could not only caused the decay in writing quality but also put pressure on the VFX, Animators along with other artist putting work into a product. One of the most infamous example of it is with the MCU during Phase 4 onwards with the VFX and writing quality ended up decaying due to being release back to back. That is the concern that should be talked about more due it effects both blockbusters and Indle projects
Hazbin is one of the strange instances where I can enjoy it even with the creator being a bad person that's still around. I, personally, have only ever been able to spearate the art from the artist when the artist is dead (like Lovecraft), but can understand how people can separate it when they're alive or can't separate it at all. So, I was trying to figure out how I could still separate it.
However, I realized that it's because we've been waiting for so long for Hazbin to come out, and watching the Hunicast, that that's my interpretation of the characters. The actual show feels more like a fanfiction of the fandom's version because the fandom's version is both so much better and existed so much longer... Which, I'm grateful for. I'm happy I can enjoy these characters without that feeling of it being wrong.
I loved your last video. The bathtubs snake drawing is disturbing because it normalizes the sexualization of minors. For you not to care tells me one of two thing. You’re around the age of 17 so this doesn’t seem weird or you’re already normalized to people drawing underage characters in sexual situations which is a problem.
Agreed
It's because everyone brings it up, it was years ago, and sometimes it really is pixels on screen, did she draw it to be edgy or for her own pleasure, or she was desensitized to it and drew it again to be edgy? Without context you really can't accuse someone being a zoo off of one image that was a singular instance. Using objective logic here
(I'm saying it's still bad but focusing on that for her being a horrible person is weak and we should focus on the other arguments made)
Thank you, the way that was addressed was odd
This series is so good! I watched till the end, as well as with the 1st part. Would definitely want a part 3^^
Can’t wait for Jdude to find this 😭
Who?
@@pawnhearts8785 good question
@@Jdudec367Ok but it’s like, actually hilarious you found this so quickly. I hope you get some good information out of the video
@@holyhot-chocolate It liteally weirdly popped up in my recommendation. I think I've head a lot of the Spindle Horse stuff before but I'll see if there's anything new here.
Bathtub snakes thing is like, not much compared to everything else. It adds to her weirdness because why would anyone portray a minor like that. But in the grand scheme of things its not much, especially since theres OTHER harmful fictional portrayals that are actually harmful and portray harmful ideas in a strange romantisized light.
I just wanna thank you for talking about the bathtub snakes situation in an actually respectable and thought out manner. Like. It pisses me off when people go "but the character in the drawing is 17- this is glorifying-" for any slightly questionable art. Like yeah, if it was real it'd be a problem absolutely, but it isn't and its perfectly fine if not a little weird. Plus i think a lot of people fail to realize that liking weird fantasy content doesn't make you an evil person?? The point of fantasy is that you know in real life there are irreparable consequences to many a thing, but in your mind palace you can have just a little fun with zero consequences, its risk free.
Im pretty sure its not rocket science last time i checked. Or maybe it is considering how many furries are in IT departments, i'll have to ask next meet-up lol
Its concerning how people care more about fictional characters like theyre real and not the real people that she hurt. Its that saying of "People on this app treat fictional characters like real people and real people like fictional characters". That phrase rings true every single time something like this happens.
And its also extremely concerning that its children who do this.
@@MadjichenGiven how the stans fervently and rabidly defend Stolas... Yeah, they cannot differentiate between reality and fiction, and that's concerning.
Honestly, while I've always enjoyed Hazbin Hotel (mostly just the pilot) I've always been on the fence about Viv as a person and this has been enough to give me a reason to not like her
A random ass RUclips video?
@@pjdixon6199 given that this one and the previous one both had real points and real reasons not to like her, yeah.
I haven't seen the image but based on your description I think people who find the bathtub snakes harmful are probably considering how it's contributing to the normalisation of sexualising minors online. In that way I do see how it could be/is harmful.
It's possible that some of animators are contractors which are people that sign a contract to work for you temporary. Some animators are contractors. Some of the animators that were contractors might have left since they already fulfilled their duty they had to do in their contract. That can explain the high turn over rate.
yes part two is HEREE
1k per week at 40 hours is only 25 per hour. Also any employer will flat out tell you the people who do better work in faster time get more money.... That makes sense. If Chris can do 15 units an hour vs Amy's 45, shouldn't she be paid more? Of course, EVERY employee should make a livable wage - that's a different story.
Don't look into what's going on with Mr. Beast .......
I called it the pizza party system.
The snake hissing was probably my favorite part of this whole video
I love the series and the work you put in, bit can I make a little request ?
Could you please make your videos a little louder, I have my phone on full volume yet struggle to hear what you are saying a lot of the time, but the moment I click something else the speakers blow out ^^*
"Animators get paid 35 dollars per second of animation! That's slav*ry"
As someone who lives in Mexico it is sad to admit i know a lot of people who would gladly take the job before their current one. 20 dollars an hour sounds awesome too
duuude ive been waiting with BAITED BREATH for this. im so excited
I don't think the damn bathtub snakes are a big deal either 💀 Yeah it's fucking weird but didn't she draw it in like... highschool? Years ago? It's not enough to cancel her over when the actual bad stuff she does is worse.
She drew it in her early 20s.
EDIT: Nevermind, she was 19 when she drew it.
@@peachybunny1875Medrano entered college at 17, for reference
@@garbagedataraccoon Ok, thanks for the info.
agreed
@@peachybunny1875 from all the sources i can get it was 16
I always say: the writing of the show is awful, the animation and voice acting is amazing, and Medranno is a huge piece of sh*t
Honestly that lack of script speech is my spirit animal
Ohhh I remember KittenSneeze, they work for Helluva Boss, while their in college if I remember correctly
Imma be fr withu chief. You DEFINITELY should script these videos. I mean the video is decent but the first part with the bathtub snakes could be been worded a bit better. It really makes you come off in a bad light. I know you didn't mean to but yeah.
Furthermore a scripted video increases the likelihood of people reposting the video due to the higher quality, AND it makes it easier to comprehend.
So yeah I'm not saying you should completely rewrite and reupload this but it would be helped if it was at least a bit scriped.
About a year ago maybe in early 2023, I stayed in Vegas for a while and attended my first expo convention where apparently Viv and her crew were showing up at the LVL expo for autographs and I really didn’t know a single thing about that convention since it was my first time, but anyway I got her autograph and as well as the main writer of Helluva Boss(somehow the first name that came to my mind name was Adam and nothing else), and as also the voice actor of Vaggie from the Pilot. Well at first I thought Viv, she was cool and all, really didn’t know anything about her background history or overall controversies, and also I at first didn’t want to get an autograph from any of the cast at all (because I was forced to or well I don’t know I wasn’t too interested in getting an autograph and just exploring everything else at the expo, since, like I said…. It was the first time I’ve ever been to a convention expo) So, anyways after I watched this video and too first part, I can conclude…. That vivziepop is still a bad person, and thank you so much for making me get a different view of this person.
Also I like your content
If I had a nickel for everything someone with a silly little dog pfp that exposed someone that used to be beloved, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice!
(I’m referring to dogpack404 in case if people were wondering)
i personally am a hazbin fan, but i LOVE these videos. i LOVEEE listening to this while drawing
HAVENT WATCHED THIS YET BUT IM SO EXCITED I GENUINELY LOVE YOUR COMMENTARY SO MUCH RAHH
Here we go again!
Commenting for the algorithm, good video
Its so hard watching commentary videos about viv because on one hand its so interesting hearing about ALLL THE SHIT shes done but at some point i just feel bad for all yhw people she's fucked over and dont wanna watch anymorw,,
Anyways that hasnt happened yet so BANGER video!!
The gaming company thing reminds me when I saw someone a year ago talking about how loona va thought she was doing voice lines for a furry fighting game but later on find out she wasn’t voice acting for a fighting game which was really weird
Math time even though I’m a bit late to the video. But let’s see.
I couldn’t find an exact “how long does it take to animate_” because animation style, how many people are involved, and individual speed varies, but I got ranges from less than 1 second per day of work to 4. If we give Hazbin the absolute benefit of the doubt and say everyone is creating 4 seconds of animation a day, that would be 140$ a day for the 35 a second folks.
If they’re working 8 hour days that’s 17.50$ an hour.
9 hour days it’s 15.50$
10 hour days its 14$
And if crunch gets so bad that people are working 12 hour days (it can happen easily in this industry) people are looking at 11.60$/ hour.
If I’m completely wrong on the math go ahead and let me know.
What I do know is that at the standard 24fps, animators have to create 24 drawings for 35$. That’s 1.45$ per drawing.
Also aren’t a bunch of these people living in California? Ain’t that place expensive?!
Unpopular opinion:
Charlie & the settings were better in the pilot than the show. But I love Vaggie's design WAS SO MUCH BETTER.
(Also Alastor needed to either have more reminiscing characteristics of a 1920s black man. Or he needs to be like the male version of the damn Beldam from Coraline. Or both)
Also Fvck Vivziepop
“That’s a drawing” is crazy!! Suddenly Shadman is innocent. It’s really weird to not see an issue with someone fantasizing about or drawing things like that.
Agree
you mean when she was 16... like the situations are very different. it pains me that people that try to make viv into a bad person have to ignore important details
Shadman was making inappropriate art of REAL children. It's not the same as fictional characters who can't get hurt or traumatized
this video was much better compared to your other one bc you actually have evidence from people that worked at the studio this time. but I still feel as if you blow the wrong things out of proportion
for example the 50% turnover rate: from what I've seen of the series, it has a very MAP (multiple animator project) vibe where each person is responsible for their own scene, and this way you can get a lot of hands on something and complete it quickly. so people won't really stay for multiple episodes, they'll just do a couple scenes from one episode. I know a lot of people (mostly online) that have animated like... a scene or two for helluva boss. so they probably just animate their one scene, and then leave bc they don't anticipate spending more time on the team.
The pay is definitely disappointing to hear, especially with how successful the patreon seems to have been. I can't really speculate about hwere the money is going bc I don't have the books. but to claim "favoritism" speaks to your lack ofknowledge about the industry, which you admit to having no knowledge about several times. I feel what Adam MEANT to say was that people who DO stay and DO animate large chunks of the show get $1000 dollars per week, which is actually close to union wages. I felt as if he implied that those were poeple who animated for vivzie fulltime, as opposed to a lot of the part time positions that get shuffled around quickly (ergo the high turnover rate). either the article didn't include part of his messages, or Adam himself is very much not media trained and didn't elaborate on why some poeple get paid much more, because he probably assumed it would be self evident. so I understand why that looks really bad, but I honestly think it was miscommunication on his part, because there really is no other reason why the pay gap at spindlehorse would be so vast.
I think this video brought up better points that actually hold their ground adn aren't just conjecture, but the way you react so intensely to a lot of more minor stuff tells me that you have absolutely no idea what the animation industry is like. I'm sad to hear about the lowball pay, especially since production has evolved since the earlier days, and the unprofessional environment is also saddening to hear, but it does not surprise me in the least. animation as a whole is a very chaotic industry. like any other job, you have shitty supervisors and shittier bosses. you have a very complex chain of command that requires several people to coordinate and not fuck it up, and inevitably someone does, which leads to crunch, delays, etc. etc. honestly the industry really freaks me out sometimes, and I haven't even broken into it yet. but the entertainment industry is just crazy, we don't get the luxuries most other jobs get because our job is "cool" and we're following our "passion" or something like that. so while it is disappointing to hear about low payment and organizational issues, I hope you hold the same standards to bigger, professional animation studios that have these exact same problems of crunch, underpayment, and disorganization.
BTW, I did some research into the animation industry: the vast majority of ALL animation studios show a turnover rate equal to Viv’s if not higher. 50-80% of new artists are usually let go after a year.
Project hires are pretty common ya know….
Really? Can you link your sources? I tried to look into it (I'd say I made an effort that was more than token, but less than substantial) and didn't really find anything.
@@AutisticSwag well it seems that RUclips keeps deleting the links I try to send in…
Have you tried breaking the link up with spaces or emojis?
... Tony Raphielle p much bullied a friend of mine for liking a certian character (thrax) ,,, also vivzie p much harassed my friends,,, i dont think im gonna say details on what happened since i dont... know much, but tbh... i dont want to go near them lmao, so yeah, 🤪🤪
I am an,,, ex vivzie pop helluva boss,,, i used to watch hazbin by only the pilot, (helluva was... idk... ten episodes...? or something? ) but i stopped watching that content due to... getting tired of trying to catch up with that,,, i guess, it felt annoying seeing popularity swim out with it, but yeah im... not gonna look into it, im not motivated yet until i guess.. it ages for years or something... i wouldnt know, I used to have a character crush on angel dust but i was sure it was temporary . plus,,, i.. did sorta had issues with the canon stuff but i get it abt their characters and sexuality i guess. but yeah, whatever,. sorry to fans who think ive been missing out- I just... dont wanna support vivzie pop anymore
i.. used to like the art style... but idk why it felt like it rubbed me the wrong way now.. but yeah, im tired lol . i came her because i was curious of what chaotic shit this vivzie pop did, or something,,, as much i dont engage the content,, i respect everybody's interests of the show, i just.... dont really look into it like what i used to-
I’ve really enjoyed your videos on this topic so far, I don’t mind you not having a script.
However I do take issue with how you addressed the the bathtub snakes situation. I had not heard of it before these videos. Even if you personally don’t think there’s an issue with drawing that kind of content I do think it’s important, as someone making a critical docuseries, to address the valid concerns. What you said about how you don’t think anyone will get hurt is dismissive of the greater implications that kind of art can have and is frankly the same excuse people use for lolicon. That type of art normalizes minors in erotic situations. Something that shouldn’t be happening at all.
I’m not saying this be hateful. Like I said I’ve enjoyed these videos so far but I do think this issue could have been addressed better.
Wait okay but $ 1,000 per week makes for about $ 4,000 per month and $ 20 per hour with a 40h/week job makes for about $ 3,200/month, right? That’s still $ 800 of a difference and sorta messed up, but it’s not, like, one is earning $ 1,000/month and the other a million.
I like that you started off the video with the close up of that polar bear. Love those guys.
i don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the nature and wildlife videos in the background are super calming and engaging :3 i can watch cute creatures while hearing drama
completely my opinion but the reason that snake drawing doesn't matter as much is for the same reasons as in the video but also when people are getting laid off, losing money, you cant talk about kinky art in the same vain
I... I don't even know what to say. I'm less pissed and more sad... now I feel sh@t. Great video.
I love Helluv and Hazbin. They both inspire me- Hell, Michael as Angel made me discover I was bi. Thanks, Mike. But god... I never knew any of this... The fandom is good, I know them, the nice and talented people... I-I'm gonna go check on them and ask that, as well as a way to cheer me up. Thank you. Yet another person I looked up turned out to be sh@t. First Goldenbox, now this... Yeah, I'm definitely gonna be sad for the rest of the day (nothing against you). I hope everyone here has a good day.
Hey, dude, hope you're doing fine and I can get that none of this is easy to process, just stay safe and keep yourself around your friends keeping a healthy environment, alright?
@@ThePaupepa Yeah, I'm good, thanks for asking. I just felt sh@t more than anything. And the whole "can I trust the fandom" thing was quickly resolved when I saw all the kind things the fans have done and all the brilliant works of art/writing/creating, etc- they have all done for the sheer love of Helluva and Hazbin. They're good people, and I'll happily defend them from people saying they're terrible and scorn those who ruin the community. Viv is terrible - god saying that is both surreal and soul destroying -, before I would call her bad, but in the terms that we've all done bad stuff, we've all made a girl in a bathtub full of snakes once in our lives (I used that of all things as a metaphor). But all of THIS... no, you're bad, you're terrible for doing this, you throw your friends under the bus, leave these people behind, have the gull to say, "You guys can't use MY characters, during a charity for a cast members husbands memorial". I don't care what people say. She doesn't own those characters; everyone who worked, supported and funded Hazbin/Helluva owns them as much as she does. They've done more work with them than you ever will, Viv. Okay, I'm just venting right now, sorry... I looked up to you, Viv. You are the prime example of the underdog, the person who gave me the inspiration to try and make my dreams come true, to flip off the big white-collar corporate pigs, and tell them to suck it! You inspired me, and still do, more your works inspire me, and I will follow them to the end and not give a single crap about you. Angel helped me find a part of myself I didn't know existed. Blitz made me feel comforted, knowing I'm not the only person who fears dying alone and being forgotten. I will follow IMP to the end. I will follow Charlie and everyone damn person in that Hotel, TO. THE. END. And you, Viv, can't ruin it for me. OKAY, that's enough venting from me, sorry. Sorry for the roughly three hundred words. I'm doing okay, and I hope you're doing well too. Now, don't mind me, I'm gonna write something now, c'ya.
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PS: Just before I go. Now, I understand why people want Viv cancelled, but that does not mean I condone those people's actions against, Viv. AKA: Stalking and sending her blended cat videos. I dunno, to me, stuff like that is immature and breeds nothing good for anyone. Okay, that's enough of me, bye. :)
@@ieuansmith518 Oh damn, you are really passionate about this, why don't you try your hand at fix-it fanfics? I've heard they're plenty of fun to write and can actually help you with the vent process as well.
And hey, I get it, I also thought back then that Viv was a wonderful person and a role model of an artist, just to feel how everything shattered into a million pieces as I saw how Helluva ended up in a perpetual circle of the same character arcs over and over again, besides seeing some very condemning evidence against her (the Erin / Ken situation) which made me realize that Viv isn't a good person at all.
And agreed on the last part, while Viv is a terrible person, stalking and sending death threats to her won't help anyone and it's counterproductive, and also immature, like you've said.
And lastly, stick with those friends of yours, because they may as well be the few sane people in the Viv cult fandom that Viv herself cultivated over the years.
Have a good day, and please, stay safe!