I once heard a Rel Sub which was referred to (by the sales person) as a bass management system. At first listen I could not detect the Rel at all. All I heard some amazingly well presented music ... then the sub was turned off leaving the speakers at exactly the same listening level. The difference was night and day. I had no idea that a sub could contribute that much more fidelity to what was already a pretty good set of speakers.. That was years ago and now I know better. From then to until this video I have never heard anyone else refer to a sub as a base management system. Spot on Tarun!!!
Thanks for this, some very well made points. I was one of those that thought why do I want a boom box apart from for movies. Since adding a sub, I notice how much space there is amongst instruments and everything has changed for the better. I really appreciate your informative videos.
Thanks Tarun, great balance between practical and technical explanation. I've been grappling with the "right" subwoofer(s) to buy for my small listening room for a while and have done a lot of research. This video really helped me to confirm many of my views and concerns so thank you very much. Great content, as always!
Tarun - perfect timing! A video to help me focus on the only thing I really need to add to the Z-2’s and 6000A. You and Paul McGowan have changed my thinking that a sub is not part of a stereo set up. Cheers
Thank you for producing this video on subs. Only recently came to the party on these. My B&W 802s theoretically go down to 33 Hz but a sub still helped. The main effect for me was in soundstage ambiance. Much better perception of reverb and “air movement” where the venue creates these. I experimented with my old B&W ASW surrounding sub. The bass was boomy and very slow. My dealer sent me a REL S510 with Airship connection on high level output and after 2 weeks I bought the units. Set up is a real art, the impact is subtle, but the difference is clear and a big loss when the sub is off. London Grammar, orchestras etc with the sub are epic.
Good presentation as usual, Tarun. Your sub is a gorgeous piece of furniture! I've been using two 8" AR subs in my home theater system since 2000, and they still sound great. Like you said, the settings on the sub itself are important.
I recently found your channel and am enjoying catching up. Thanks for the content. Absolutely agree: dual subs integrated with room correction, with the correction limited to below 250 hz.
Thanks, Tarun. Lots of great advice. Of all the speakers I have owned, the only pair I didn't feel needed any sub-woofer help were my transmission lines (with a smooth response to sub-30Hz). I only use one sub and have tried it in a wide variety of room positions. My preference is 350mm off the floor, directly between my main speakers at the same distance. Certainly not a position I have seen many others use. My son uses a self-tuning DSP crossover system which works well, provided you put the microphone accurately in the listening position during tuning (we mount it on a photographic tripod). Interestingly, the plot it shows of the applied crossover seems to always be subtractive, with notch filters at room resonance frequencies. No additional amplifier power required and a remarkably clean sound with no lack of deep bass. I have witnessed some truly dreadful subwoofer setups and am firmly of the opinion that (when it comes to resolving music in the home) no subwoofer is better than a badly set-up one. Quite recently I had a work colleague and fellow audiophile visit for the first time. I consider my subwoofer set-up to be a gentle enhancement to the system. (I once accused my son of having his sub set to "hooligan" and he countered with the claim that I have mine set to "polite".) We listened for about an hour and then I switched off the sub as a comparison. The scale of the performance did seem to diminish a little. My purist "I don't need a sub" colleague had bought himself a REL within a month of his visit...
Great anecdote John. Thank you for sharing. I agree no sub is much better than a poorly setup one. It is nice you have two audiophiles in the family 😊👍
Fantastic, insightful review. As correctly pointed out; sub/main's integration is KEY -acoustically and electrically. Also correctly pointed out, successful subwoofer use/integration results in considerable gains from the main loudspeakers, namely: clarity, definition and 'image' dimensionality. Many listener's (perhaps even audiophiles) haven't experienced -and thus appreciated- what accurate, integrated low-frequency reproduction brings to the listening experience. It's quite startling how the entire music (frequency) bandwidth gains clarity. Additionally and not fully explored or eluciated (in fact not likely understood entirely) is the increidble amount of signal information below 50 cycles (Hz.) Over the past 50-years the quest for greater high frequency extension has been sought at the considerable expense of neglecting low-frequency 'performance. This oversight applies more so to amplifier manufacturers than loudspeaker ones. The bottom line: There IS a wealth of 1 Hz-50 Hz signal information (instrument sub-harmonics) as well as recording space 'cues' contained in this very low frequency range. The authentic reproduction of this most-important bandwidth is crucial in defining the finest hi-fi sound possible. pete jasz
Tarun, I agree regarding subwoofers. After a period of denial or lack of awareness, I added a pair of REL T/9i subs to my Magnepan 1.7i speakers and it revolutionized that system. The improvements were dramatic.
Hello British Audiophile (Turan). Just discovered you. May I add? First off, I was very happy to hear you include PIPE ORGANS in your opening statement. I have worked for a pipeorgan company of what will be 32 years in June 2021. My system is in a dedicated space of 18x24' with hardly anything in it. ATS sound panels throughout. A pair of Martin Logan electrostatics from their Masterpiece series - Parasound separates. I recently added the Martin Logan 1600X subwoofer near MID front wall position. The Anthem room correction built in took care of a bump I had at 25 Hz, and smoothed out that curve to 17 hz. After this is done, you can now play with phase - inversion - cutoff and all the usual parameters. The ONLY reason I have this added to the system is for ACOUSTIC frequencies that are below 32hz. in orchestral and organ music. The LPF is set to 35hz. You hardly know it is on for all the power it has. Only when those low pedal notes of the 32' stops are played in the recording, do you hear the gentle 'purring'. Also, orchestral BASS DRUMS that are tuned very low, such as those with the Berlin Philharmonie and the Boston Symphony orchestra (whom our firm works for during the summer), does the subwoofer add it's part. Thanks for reading, and thanks for your video presentation (O:
Subwoofer’s contribution to mid-frequencies can be explained: if you have a piano with strings - when you hit a low note, then you will find that the strings an octave higher will vibrate too and add to the sound. This is also why in an ensemble such as a string quartet or bass guitar in a band are very important. As always: thank you for providing lots of useful information in your video!
Thanks for this Tarun. I have a set of LS50 wireless 2’s in my living room and I thought they performed pretty well. However, when I added a Klipsch SPL-150 sub to the mix it completely transformed my music! Extremely easy to set it up, no special placement needed for me - but I did apply ‘sub’tlety to the way I integrated the new dustbin (as my wife calls it). It’s all about feeling that all-encompassing movement of air but not rattling the windows. Like I say, it added so much to my listening experience that I couldn’t now contemplate being without one. Makes me want to put Hans Zimmer’s Bladerunner score on again, just to bathe in aural goodness 😊 PS. I would echo the sentiments of the post below - the Blake Mills/Pino Palladino album is great.
I find by having dual subs the integration being a whole lot smoother/easier, it's probably because i have two Rel 8" down-firing T5is positioned behind the couch, which are 6"-8" away from the corners and having them both connected to each individual stereo speaker binding posts (high level input) The biggest compliment I get is when a guest/friend ask.... "how come you get such a huge sound from at such a small speaker" 😁
I agree with the total plonker. Two RELs gets you closer to full range with no boomy b.s.. I put mine with all manner of budget book shelves and couldn't go without them now
Same here, two Rel Quakes on my bedroom, one Rel Storm III in the living room. I recap the subs with Mundorf caps, and dealed with the bad Rel Acoustics decision on using the R8 resistor with just 12k-1W by changing it to the right values, 15k-3W Mills resistor (Storm III). That is it weakest point, along with R6 resistor and the four less thermic capable transistors, changed them as well. Huge sound quality improvement...from Daweoo caps to Mundorf MLytic.
Excellent discussion. You covered all of the issues rather than just bass extension. You also note the importance of multiple subwoofers to create evenly distributed ("fast") bass. Most audio systems can benefit from subwoofers for the reasons you have well stated. I can personally confirm the advantages with my own systems, with small speakers in a small room and larger speakers in a larger room--the improvements are very obvious in both.
Once again a great video The subwoofer crawl is indeed an excellent first step in setting up a subwoofer. The most common problems set up tend to be that the crossover frequency and level are set to high. What is required to get a seamless integration with the main speakers is getting the phase set just right. If the sub you are considering only has a 0-180° switch forget it. You will probably never get it to integrate. You should only ever buy a sub with a continously variable phase control. Getting the phase right is the most difficult aspect but has a huge impact. A subwoofer should be conspicuous by its absence not its presence.
Great video. Had my REL Q150 for 20 years as well. Mines setup perfect. I know this because when I show off my setup (well did haha) people would ask why I dont use the sub. Then i disconnect the neutrik, everyone is amazed because they hear the subs in other setups. On the lookout for a second Q150 as I think even the older REL subs like ours are perfect for music and the Q150 is a great size and goes down to 19hz which I fully believe. Youd get 2 of those in your space no problem 👍😉
I definitely agree on subs, Tarun, and it's really not just about bass extension. Listening to solo cello recently, an instrument that bottoms out around 65Hz - which is easily handled by my main speakers. But with the sub, it sounds so much better in a way that's hard to describe - just more like a cello.
@@abritishaudiophile7314 yes, absolutely. Subwoofer set up is an art though. I hope you will talk on the subject sometime in future. It will help many many new audiophiles. I am absolutely certain that your style of explaining the topic with enough information and mixing it up with right amount of technical stuff will help them enormously.
hi tarun .another great review .ive used subwoofers for about 20 years .there a must .might have mentiond before .i lived in canada for many years and find that they were more common in north America than in the uk .mybe not as much now .have been home 3 years now first thing i did was get myself a subwoofer..mind you had a couple of garbage subwoofers in my time .keep the good work up best Archie 😊😊😊
Not a bass junkie, but when I started using a sub with my open baffle speakers which as you know is almost a requirement I went wow! Now I have a regular pair of floorstand speakers it's still wow! It adds and helps the overall sound and you can't tell the sub is there.Set up properely subs are fantastic in any system as stated two are better than one if you have the space.
Thanks Tarun. Well produced video with some beautiful system photos to illustrate your explanation. I always wondered if that was a REL or newer BK sub in your room. Understandably you would not be using it to review speakers but for your own use it makes sense to achieve full range. Both my systems are 2.2 REL setups. DSPeaker Antimode 2.0 gets you (almost), flat to 20hz if you want to hear the traffic/train rumble of the recording venue;-) Agreed that it's more about scale and space!
Thanks Tarun, couldn't agree more. I run Focal 948's which make good bass but having a pair of subs set up properly makes them sound better, no caveats. If you have the space and the budget your system will be enhanced.
Thank you. Have just got my first subwfr. for use in 2-channel set-up with standmounts. It does improve the whole presentation. My only slight issue is finding the optimum tuning to handle different genres of music, given it's not practical to get up to fiddle with the controls all the time - they are inaccessible. I guess because it's still new to me, I am finding recording/genres now sound wildly different because of the added dimension.
Food for thought - definately! I do have a subwoofer, an old sealed 10" Artcoustic. But I have been thinking it could probably be upgraded - it doesn't do very much for my system.
I find by having dual subs the integration being a whole lot smoother/easier, it's probably because i have two Rel 8" down-firing T5is positioned behind the couch, which are 6"-8" away from the corners and having them both connected to each individual stereo speaker binding posts (high level input) The biggest compliment I get is when a guest/friend ask.... "how come you get such a huge sound from at such a small speaker" 😁
I'm 100% on board with subs... It's funny you posted this today, as I've just given a friend who needs to set up a system of his own, a try of my setup... LS50's, with one 10" sub between the speakers, and one 15" off to the side. (here's supposed to be two 15''s, going, but one is currently very broken - I can't wait to get it back in action) through unitsjust tunedMy friend was rather surprised at the sound and didn't know where the subs were until I pointed them out to him. Fun stuff - he'd never heard anything like it before and thought I had rear surround speakers for a while... Nope - just the KEFs soundstage and a couple subs! Low bass fan for life.
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Yes, basically an experience with wonderful generic 12" and some studio monitors made me realise bass was very real, music can sound amazing with the right playback mechanisms,, and the rest of my life since I've been searching for bass that clean and low.... I've not foind it, but on my journey I'm close enough that stereo is an all encompassing joyful experience with sounds all over the place! Please excuse my half awake ramblings!... Thanks again Mr T. :D
I recently added an Onkyo sub (i live in Japan they are cheap here) to my JBL L880 Floorspeaker at first mainly to improve movies experience But i am surprising myself more everyday as i am now listening to music with the sub ON as well proving it being a valuable addition Love your videos by the way, very informative and sooooo british lol)
Since i dropped my home cinema setup, and switched to a set of B&W 805 Matrix, i've had my SVS 12" sub standing inactive in one corner of the livingroom. Heard it briefly with the B&Ws right when i bought them, and it sounded quite pleasant. I think i need to go try it out again, and put some effort into it.
All the music I listen to nowadays, don't use "real" instruments anymore. I'm 47 and grew up on a steady diet of Pink Floyd and Dire Straits, but have over the last few years developed a love and appreciation for techno and other forms of electronic music. It's such a sonically exciting world, and I've setup a home studio, bought a bunch of synthesizers and an extended low end is a visceral and a very real experience/requirement for me. If you have ever heard the ladder filter from a Moog synthesizer, you'll know what I'm talking about. I mention all this here, just so you know that your audience might be a bit more diverse than people just listening to just traditional rock, etc. Love your channel and look forward to every video you put out!
@@abritishaudiophile7314 There are many composers (Hans Zimmer, John Paesano, etc) out there who combine orchestral and electronic elements in their work. You would hear this a lot in movie/game osts, but they release studio albums as well...Listening to it without subs is just missing way too much. For instance, try the 'Tenet' movie soundtrack from Ludwig Goransson.
Excellent topic sir. For those who (whom??) feel that a room, any room, doesn't have it's own "sound" are sadly mistaken. Very good point on your part. As for bass response, rock fans might not notice missing bass below 40Hz as much as classical aficionados. Don't believe me?? Give a listen to Bach's Little Fugue. There are speaker systems that do go down to the 30Hz range. My Ohm H systems are -3dB at 32Hz. Very satisfactory for me. The satellite/sub woofer craze started here (USA) in the mid 1970's. Now it seems that most speaker designs are geared to small "bookshelf" systems. The "unobtrusive" look. A very good argument for buying vintage speakers of healthier dimensions. Ain't nothin' like a big ol' amp with big ol' speakers to move a lotta air. Don't even get me started on standing waves and room nodes. I have EPI-100 speakers (my general use speakers) that have response to 45Hz (-3dB). Not very big, but pack a wallop. Subs are necessary for use with systems having weak (or nonexistent) bass below 50Hz or so. My kitchen speakers, Boston Acoustics A-40's are tiny and response is flat to 68Hz. They do fine in my acoustically reverberant kitchen. A sub would help I'm sure, but I don't care. Swell video my friend.
It's funny, as many years ago I was definately in the " you only need the two main speaker camp". However like all things hifi, I got curious and found a great pair of secondhand Anthony Gallo's TRD 3 10" subs off fleabag for £150... and after a bit of playing (floor crawling) and twiddling around with controls - to find the sweet spots, I became instsntly converted..as they extended and firmed up the bass responses and created even more atmospheric space and dimensionality. Infact I would go so far to say adding subs and changing over to a tube preamp were the two biggest, best and most surprising sonic upgrades...so totally agree with you. I also noticed for some reason that using the Subs high level inputs sounded better than direct rca input. Not sure why but seemed to integrate better with my floor standers.
I find the same thing with the high level as well. I suspect you get a closer match with the speakers and subs receiving the same signal from the amplifier. Even though the active sub has it’s own amp. Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences 😊👍
The frequency band from 20hz to 60hz contains the spatial information ( height, width and depth ) of the venue. I have a pair of SVS SB-16 Ultra subwoofers. When listening to pipe organ the BASS has visceral impact and produces what audiophiles call "room lock".
Very interesting tarun & well explained but unfortunately I was distracted by that valve amp behind you teasing me looking forward to that review or are you indeed teasing me 😀
Good presentation. I like to think of subs as the primer for paint 🎨...it allows the music to be a bit richer and flow a bit easier but you don’t hear or see them.
@@abritishaudiophile7314 ti's a willsenton valve amp..... Some good reviews on it.. Enjoy Tarun, I've à couple of valve monoblocs 805As...only 40 watts... But brilliant.... Keep up the good work.. I've got a pair of home made speakers... Happy enough with them, could send you a photo if that's poss...
Subwoofers are awesome! I have 2 DLS Flatsub Midi on each channel og my amp's preamp output. They ensure I get the whole range audible frequencies which makes a huge difference for instance on electronic music or even on a record like Lou Reed's Walk On The Wild Side, you really get that contrabass to the lowest bottom !! You can have any sorts of speakers, your subs will cover the missing lowest frequencies anyway!
Thanks Tarun for your thoughts on this subject. I will be getting two REL T7i subs to complement my LS50 speakers my room is medium sized and I think this combo will work well. Would be most grateful if you could do a detailed set up video for both a single sub and a pair of subs. I have watched a few videos on this subject and seem to end up with more questions than answers. It seems so much depends on size of room and layout of room as to the correct positioning.
Thank you John. Much appreciated. It is a complex field and a tricky video to do. Everybody’s set up is different. It would be a worthwhile video to do though 😊👍
A subwoofer makes your piano base tones in your music sound like your baby grand at the corner in your living room. Without the sub it would sound like a typical stereo music, even with your speakers reaching down to the 30's. I've found that the "correct" subwoofer strength is such when you turn off the main stereo channels, you hear very "little" deep base sound, and when you add the stereo channels back the magic of deep base would "reveal" itself and you will have a much "rich" overall sound stage then the stereo alone.
Excellent presentation 👏. I'm struggling to find a pair if subs with dsp for under £4000. It's a shame very few companies do subs with dsp. At the moment I've got my eyes on a friends Velodyne DD15PLUS, my other choice is a pair of Rel s/510s.
Thank you William. That would be useful. I suppose it is because most people will want to DSP up to the transition frequency of the room that you don’t see it more often 😊👍
literally just get 2 good subs for under a grand and a minidsp box boom you got yourself high end bass REL is marketing, Monolith, HSU, SVS, Rhytmik is performance.
Hi Tarun, I see you have the Willsenton valve amp... Enjoy... I've à pair of monoblocs... Not that make... 805As 40 watts per channel... Great sound... Keep up the good work sir...
Yes! "Also Sprac Zarathustra" as well as any massive pedal note organ does need the subs. I have the large space so I have 2-15" placed for complete integration.
A well balanced view of subwoofers. Much has been written about their application to my chosen loudspeakers (since mid 1970s) Quad electrostatics. I have had 57s, 63s and most recently 2812s. It is only in the last year that I've experimented with subs - I bought a Quad L-series (12" version) for my TV set-up (with the small Quad 9L monitors and it sounded very impressive, so I tried it with the 2812s in my music room, and after a lot of experimentation found that it did a great job of stiffening-up the bass below 50hz - below that, although the Quads have much better bass (when properly sited) than people think, the sub just adds that extra whoomf on string bass, and the largest orchestral bass drums (quite often 38hz, or therebouts). I have now replaced the L-series in the TV room with the smaller Quad sub, and with the Quad 9Ls (driven by Quad Vena 2 play) it sounds very good on both film and music.
In the process of upgrading most of my system due to age and poor long term storage, 20+ years in a loft is never a good thing, so one of the suggestions from the hifi dealer was have a sub woofer they work really well when set-up properly, that got a ‘never in a million years’ type response, not having one of those bits of tat in my hifi system. Yes, you’ve guessed it, I have one on loan and am loving it, nice little REL which is set up as a lazy operator, only working now again, no overpowering bass, just a little rumble every now again to let me know it’s awake.
I'm impressed with your channel! I recently cleared out enough space so I could place a pair of REL 5/tx. The difference is amazing- they really let my Maggies do what they do best.
Thanks for sharing... I hope little by little, audiophiles can be more informed and educated with Acoustics Science. You did a good job debunking myths... I am looking forward for more of such debunking series... Next, maybe on speaker cables and amps... but I suspect if you go down the route of objectivity, there will be a lot of negative sentiments... This is why I respect RUclips content such as Audioholics, Audio Science Review, Joe n Tell, etc...
Thank you Kevin. If you will allow me I would just add a word of caution. My belief is that measurements and science are at the basis of our understanding of how this stuff works. That doesn’t mean that it explains everything. People who believe that are missing how science fundamentally evolves. It is a modelling mechanism used to determine causality by a process of inductive and deductive reasoning. The determinations are only valid within the framework of the model. Just look at wave/particle duality and you see how quickly we hit the limits of our understanding. This is something that I try to instil in my students when they are learning Physics. The words “truth” and “facts” smack of a certain dogmatic faith in the results that is a counter culture to genuine scientific progress. Sorry, you got me on one of my soap boxes. I will end with a quote from one of my favourite physicists, Richard Feynman, “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”
@@abritishaudiophile7314 I’m glad you brought up Feynman. What a character he was, and brilliant. I really enjoyed the book “Genius”. I should read the books he has written though. Any suggestions? Nothing that’ll go way over my level of understanding though.
@@Steveh817 they can be pretty heavy going but the Feynman lectures on Physics are probably a good place to start. Also, I love the way Michio Kaku explains stuff and Brian Cox has a way of making things very accessible 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 didn't expect a reply but really appreciate your view on this topic. While I do agree with your fundamental view on how science has evolved, there is no denying that there are great amount of objectivity studies done in the fields of audio science and even in psychoacoustics. This really leaves the realm of subjectivity very little room for debate; yet audiophiles here and many ignore this fundamental fact and keep drumming up their mantra of "trusting your ears". They placed more faith in subjectivity instead of the other way round. Just to add on to the problem, manufacturers and marketing executives took advantage of buyers' ignorance and start selling cables and equipment at unreasonable price while marketing them with exotic claims. Take a pair of Black Rhodium Charlestown DCT++ speakers cable... god, a pair of these would set you back 4700 pounds... the marketing material claims that it will tackle unwanted vibration and produce clean sound; yet if you look at the specs, there isn't any published numbers in terms of resistance, capacitance, etc, which we know for a fact such parameters will affect sound. I am in the opinion, if they claim it will reduce vibration, then they need to prove it either in measurements or empirically by means of an blind AB test. Never have I seen any industry paddle so much falsehood as the audio industry. Are audiophiles really that foolish to ignore the established sciences led by pioneers such as Dr Floyd Toole and the tons of white paper written and published by the Audio Eng Society? Anyway, I am not an influencer... it is up to more youtube content makers such as yourself to educate their viewers. There will always be subjectivity - no denying but let's hope objectivity takes a more center stage... www.audioaffair.co.uk/black-rhodium-charleston-dct-cs-speaker-cable
@@kevincheong1516 I think we are pretty much on the same page Kevin. What can be explained objectively should be explained objectively. The Hifi industry and in particular the cable manufacturers have not showered themselves in glory when it comes to transparency and weeding out snake oil merchants. I just like to leave the door open to science not necessarily being able to explain everything. Certainly when it comes to how our brain interprets information. Thank you for indulging me in this discussion. I appreciate all the support you show me 😊👍
I'm surprised some ppl don't like subs. I'm not an audiophile, but I am a musician and without a sub you can't get the full feel of sound especially for bass instruments from all the families.
I always felt the bass of my Klipsch RF7 IIIs was lacking a bit and thought about getting subwoofers. A few weeks ago I added sorbothane absorbers between them and the wooden parquet floor. And voilà: now that the energy is not going into the vibrating floor anymore there's the punch I was missing. No need for subs anymore :)
Nice video. Allow me to put forth an analogy as it's the reason why I've not experimented with sub-woofers to date. I spent much of five decades in the premium end of automotive aftersales, i.e. with manufacturers and dealers, so we're talking new and nearly new vehicles. When the subject of engine oil additives would come up our response would be that "you're already buying some of the most expensive and high-quality engine oil on the market; why would you add anything to it?" And we wouldn't. Suppliers would come in, wanting us to sell their products, but I would not. I use a pair of very nice Tannoy DC8T floor-standing speakers that I consider to be a premium product (with an Arcam amp and a Denon CD player). They're used almost exclusively for music listening, usually classical, but some classic rock. On occasion, I would like a touch more bass, but it seems to be music-specific. Quite a few vloggers are recommending sub-woofers (e.g. yourself, Paul at PS Audio), so I'd like to experiment with them, but it's currently a challenge for me at this time and place. Thanks again for the informative video.
I've used my Rel Strata III for close to 20 years. With a few pairs of main speakers. From time to time I take it out of my system but it always come back!
yes: most two way monitors( eg 6.5 inch drivers) start rolling off around 80 hz and are down 3+ db @ 50 hz.Accordingly a sub is needed to fill in the bass down to, lets say ,the 60-35 hz area.ML has a great 10" sealed sub with room correction and phone adjustment:very musical. Makes a huge improvement to fill out the sound to the full human audio range @ a reasonable price.
Another thing that is a benefit with a sub is that you can get the entire sound represented at low volumes. Without a sub a lot of speakers dynamically don't come alive until they have 15 or 20 watts into into them
I don’t need a sub woofer because I haven’t got sub standard speakers 🤣🤣. Sorry,Tarun, couldn’t resist. Great video, as always. By the way, just upgraded my crossovers with really nice components and my non-audiophile wife is astonished by the difference she can hear. Mostly Mundorf caps and aircore inductors, plus a couple of Hoveland bypass caps. Also went for Mills wirewound resistors and lovely OCC copper link wire. About the same price as a decent sub and definitely my preferred upgrade route.
Thank you for the instructive video. Concerning the “crawl”, I’m sceptical. The listening position has very different wall enhancement than the usual boundary near place where the subwoofer comes to rest. The way of the sound is not as much reversible as the way of the light.
It does seem counterintuitive but you will still hear the SBIR. The alternative is to try the sub in the locations you can get away with and see what sounds best 😊
for the last 20 years i had subwoofers in my systems. they are always fun but not the best and accurate option for sound quality. a few thing i learn to make things work better and easier is: get sealed speakers, both mains and subwoofer. use a tone generator found with a google search and sit in listening position and all the subwoofer adjustments like volume, phase and crossover frequency is done with ease. Make sure you get the a great sounding subwoofer, i paid more for my subwoofer compared my bookshelf mains.
I think classical orchestral music on the whole has most benefit for a sub in the scenario where you have reasonable extension in the first place (floorstanders). - Many Pop&Rock recordings are pumped up in the lower freqs and this mitigates a little, and can be too much with a sub at 'correct' level. - A greater amount of Bass instrumentation in P&R is brighter in tone, and the richer HF content gives the impression of bass. - Subs add to the 'non-musical' cues (hammer hits, bow scrapes) that are primarily in the acoustic realm. - The explosive orchestral bass drum with a 3ft skin needs a sub, the intense LF of double bass, contra bassoon, as well as general audio clues you get from recording in a large room also need a helping hand. - acoustic jazz double bass also benefits significantly. - 'Cons'; you do get some recordings where the addition of tube train/road works/general traffic rumble accompaniment was formerly inaudible!
Excellent video. Another reason for a sub is that the location of speakers for best imaging is rarely the same place for best bass response. Also the larger cone and longer excursion of sub drivers will create a more realistic transfer the low frequency energy than smaller main speaker drivers. One of the most critical things to integrate a sub is setting the time alignment or at least phase. If a sub does not have a continuous 0 - 180 phase adjustment, get another sub, or if you don't mind digital, add a DSP with delay and phase. Unfortunately, setting those settings takes some understanding and equipment. But equipment is much less expensive today. In most cases for two subs, it will work best if the subs are not symmetrical in the room, especially if the room is not symmetrical. Finally, great place for subs is actually mid height on the front wall spaced 1/4 to 1/3 wall width apart. Since most room walls are shorter than the low frequencies trying to be reproduced, this creates a wavefront from that wall back into the room. But with this arrangement time alignment/phase is critical. And the SAR (spousal approval rating) couldn't be lower so it is rarely obtainable.
@@abritishaudiophile7314 if you can find the time, try taking two subs , one on either side of you fire place half way up the wall. I think you will be surprised at the wave front that will create. It will look terrible but should sound great. I say should because we don't get to see the rest of your room. Also remember that the low frequency cut off is determined not just by the speakers but an even greater effect by the lowest allowable standing wave determined by room size. Sorry if I sound preachy. Don't mean to as I am sure you know that. It is easy for me to be an arm chair quarterback (another american term). I can't imagine how much time you put trying to figure out what to say, how much to put in and what to take out. That's you you do what you do and I just comment.
@@jked7463 I would love to that. Right in the null created by the length of the room. If I get hold of another sub, I may just try it to whilst the wife is out 😂
I'm happy with quite small 6,5" active sub, >30 Hz. Mainly for DVD and TV. Even my small passive monitors go to -3 dB @45 Hz, and I use active pair for most music without sub. Easy to switch with those and third option, large 3 way 10" speakers for turntable and CD.
I use a small wharfedale sub crossed at around 60hz paired with wharfedale Diamond 10.2. Of course the extension helps with organ music. But overall depth of soundstage increased dramatically.
Got dual pb16s svs. Then added 2 Buttkicker LFE to the coils in my coutch , OMG it’s great for music I would encourage anyone to try a buttkicker out it’s awesome , love how it tugs on my springs feels like Torquey Bass , 3000watts of power into the couch, I’m in bass heaven , I can have a conversation with someone in the room and not Be blasted with output . Couldn’t be more happy with kickers
Do to additional furniture in my room I have had to use smaller speakers but I remember buying a Wharfdale subwoofer to use with a pair of Diamonds so I am going to dig it out the loft where it’s been for more than 10 years and see if I can capture the base that I used to get with my AR925 floor standing speakers.
A pair REL T5i subs really do help my bookshelves perform at their best. Depending on our musical choices, you may or may not think it's worth the expenditure. I am envious of the newer subs that are adjustable with a remote or an iPhone app.
T5/i's are on sale right now and it looks like they're being closed out. I'm thinking about picking up a pair for $1100 before they disappear. My listening room is never going to be large enough to demand something brawnier for exclusively 2-channel listening.
@@alm5693 They are being replaced with a new model costing, I think about $899. I'd say grab them. As usual I got in just in time to pay the higher price.
Interestingly enough, if you do all of your listening from one particular location in the room, then the best place for the subwoofer is as close to that location as possible. In the "nearfield" the room has a lot less impact on the subwoofer's output compared to say when the subwoofer is located near the speakers. So experiment with placing the subwoofer right next to the chair or the couch :-). While the subwoofer crawl is a decent way to find a good location for a subwoofer, a PC and a mike and R.E.W. will help you find it a lot quicker. Locate the subwoofer in the listening position and move the MIKE around the room, and to test each location run a 10~200 Hz sine sweep. Locate the subwoofer where the response shows the least ripple. And note this might not be at ground level either. For one friend that I helped, the best location turned out to be halfway up one of the walls in his studio. Finally, for "nearfield" listening, you don't really need a big subwoofer, or more than one. For my "desk" system, the subwoofer is an 8" driver in a DIY tapered transmission line tuned to around 32 Hz. Works great!
Thank you Brian. REW and a Umik-1 are definitely worthwhile. It is a bit of a rabbit hole but I find a mixture between the objectivist and subjectivist approach works best 😊
@@abritishaudiophile7314 I was hoping to convert you and perhaps others to an appreciation of contemporary jazz. I love it, but clearly other folks do not. I won't bother you with it again.
One of my “wants” is to get a couple REL s812’s but my other half thinks I’m an idiot for putting more money into my current system. She’s content with her little obnoxious Amazon satellite things placed about the house. My old Klipsch La Scala’s are rated to reach in the low 40’s but when I run a tone generator I can hear a tone in the mid to low 30’s. About 33Hz and lower it just vibrates the room. I’m an old guy so I’m thinking I can’t hear below 33Hz but the real question is, why is anything happening below the rated 40+Hz range if their response is listed as such? Maybe my wife is right! I did replace the crossovers with ALK extreme slope units. Enjoy your channel by the way.
Thank you DD. I suspect that with room gain your La Scala’s are still playing at a reduced volume in the mid 30s even if it starts to roll off before then. It is then exciting some kind of resonance in your room. Or there is a problem with the tone generator 😉
I once heard a Rel Sub which was referred to (by the sales person) as a bass
management system. At first listen I could not detect the Rel at all. All I heard
some amazingly well presented music ... then the sub was turned off leaving
the speakers at exactly the same listening level. The difference was night and
day. I had no idea that a sub could contribute that much more fidelity to what was
already a pretty good set of speakers.. That was years ago and now I know better.
From then to until this video I have never heard anyone else refer to a sub as
a base management system. Spot on Tarun!!!
Thank you Charles 😊👍
Thanks for this, some very well made points. I was one of those that thought why do I want a boom box apart from for movies. Since adding a sub, I notice how much space there is amongst instruments and everything has changed for the better. I really appreciate your informative videos.
Thank you DS. Much appreciated 😊👍
Thanks Tarun, great balance between practical and technical explanation. I've been grappling with the "right" subwoofer(s) to buy for my small listening room for a while and have done a lot of research. This video really helped me to confirm many of my views and concerns so thank you very much. Great content, as always!
Thank you Marc. Very much appreciated 😊👍
I think this is my favorite video of yours so far. Great topic, well explained. Look forward to a setup video. Cheers!
Thank you buddy 😊👍👍
Tarun - perfect timing! A video to help me focus on the only thing I really need to add to the Z-2’s and 6000A. You and Paul McGowan have changed my thinking that a sub is not part of a stereo set up. Cheers
Thank you Jeremy 😊👍
@Joe Turner Thanks Joe. I keep some salt handy in view of Paul's frequent and self-confessed "shameless plug".
Still my favourite reviewer! Love your technical explanations. Pure knowledge - no bs👍
Thank you Paul. Very kind and much appreciated 😊👍👍
Mine too! The Britsh Audiophile is going to give the US reviewers a run for their money!...:-)
@@marcfoss7687 thank you Marc. Great to have your support 😊👍👍
"That is a daft digression, but I'm going to keep it in anyway." Bless you 😂
I was in mid flow so decided to keep it in 😂
There's nothing wrong with a bit of digression - just ask Paul McGowan!
@@osliverpool Too TRUE LOL !
Thank you for producing this video on subs.
Only recently came to the party on these. My B&W 802s theoretically go down to 33 Hz but a sub still helped. The main effect for me was in soundstage ambiance. Much better perception of reverb and “air movement” where the venue creates these.
I experimented with my old B&W ASW surrounding sub. The bass was boomy and very slow. My dealer sent me a REL S510 with Airship connection on high level output and after 2 weeks I bought the units. Set up is a real art, the impact is subtle, but the difference is clear and a big loss when the sub is off. London Grammar, orchestras etc with the sub are epic.
Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences Clyde 😊👍
Good presentation as usual, Tarun. Your sub is a gorgeous piece of furniture! I've been using two 8" AR subs in my home theater system since 2000, and they still sound great. Like you said, the settings on the sub itself are important.
Thank you Jose 😊👍
I recently found your channel and am enjoying catching up. Thanks for the content.
Absolutely agree: dual subs integrated with room correction, with the correction limited to below 250 hz.
Thank you buddy 😊👍
Excellent and timely for me. Would really like to see you do the sub setup video you mentioned. Thanks for putting this together.
Most welcome. Thank you for watching and you kind words of support Rich 😊👍
Thanks, Tarun. Lots of great advice.
Of all the speakers I have owned, the only pair I didn't feel needed any sub-woofer help were my transmission lines (with a smooth response to sub-30Hz). I only use one sub and have tried it in a wide variety of room positions. My preference is 350mm off the floor, directly between my main speakers at the same distance. Certainly not a position I have seen many others use.
My son uses a self-tuning DSP crossover system which works well, provided you put the microphone accurately in the listening position during tuning (we mount it on a photographic tripod). Interestingly, the plot it shows of the applied crossover seems to always be subtractive, with notch filters at room resonance frequencies. No additional amplifier power required and a remarkably clean sound with no lack of deep bass.
I have witnessed some truly dreadful subwoofer setups and am firmly of the opinion that (when it comes to resolving music in the home) no subwoofer is better than a badly set-up one.
Quite recently I had a work colleague and fellow audiophile visit for the first time. I consider my subwoofer set-up to be a gentle enhancement to the system. (I once accused my son of having his sub set to "hooligan" and he countered with the claim that I have mine set to "polite".) We listened for about an hour and then I switched off the sub as a comparison. The scale of the performance did seem to diminish a little. My purist "I don't need a sub" colleague had bought himself a REL within a month of his visit...
Great anecdote John. Thank you for sharing. I agree no sub is much better than a poorly setup one. It is nice you have two audiophiles in the family 😊👍
Tarun, great style and delivery. Very informative as usual. I’m not a sub guy, but you surely know how to manage one. Stay daft.
Thank you Steve 😊👍
Fantastic, insightful review. As correctly pointed out; sub/main's integration is KEY -acoustically and electrically.
Also correctly pointed out, successful subwoofer use/integration results in considerable gains from the main loudspeakers, namely: clarity, definition and 'image' dimensionality.
Many listener's (perhaps even audiophiles) haven't experienced -and thus appreciated- what accurate, integrated low-frequency reproduction brings to the listening experience. It's quite startling how the entire music (frequency) bandwidth gains clarity. Additionally and not fully explored or eluciated (in fact not likely understood entirely) is the increidble amount of signal information below 50 cycles (Hz.) Over the past 50-years the quest for greater high frequency extension has been sought at the considerable expense of neglecting low-frequency 'performance. This oversight applies more so to amplifier manufacturers than loudspeaker ones.
The bottom line: There IS a wealth of 1 Hz-50 Hz signal information (instrument sub-harmonics) as well as recording space 'cues' contained in this very low frequency range. The authentic reproduction of this most-important bandwidth is crucial in defining the finest hi-fi sound possible.
pete jasz
Very well said and articulately described. Thank you Peter 😊👍
Tarun, I agree regarding subwoofers. After a period of denial or lack of awareness, I added a pair of REL T/9i subs to my Magnepan 1.7i speakers and it revolutionized that system. The improvements were dramatic.
Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences Richard 😊👍
Still saving for my first sub to integrate it into my system. Thanks Tarun. Informative video
Thank you kjbiz 😊👍
Hello British Audiophile (Turan). Just discovered you. May I add? First off, I was very happy to hear you include PIPE ORGANS in your opening statement. I have worked for a pipeorgan company of what will be 32 years in June 2021. My system is in a dedicated space of 18x24' with hardly anything in it. ATS sound panels throughout. A pair of Martin Logan electrostatics from their Masterpiece series - Parasound separates.
I recently added the Martin Logan 1600X subwoofer near MID front wall position. The Anthem room correction built in took care of a bump I had at 25 Hz, and smoothed out that curve to 17 hz. After this is done, you can now play with phase - inversion - cutoff and all the usual parameters.
The ONLY reason I have this added to the system is for ACOUSTIC frequencies that are below 32hz. in orchestral and organ music. The LPF is set to 35hz. You hardly know it is on for all the power it has. Only when those low pedal notes of the 32' stops are played in the recording, do you hear the gentle 'purring'. Also, orchestral BASS DRUMS that are tuned very low, such as those with the Berlin Philharmonie and the Boston Symphony orchestra (whom our firm works for during the summer), does the subwoofer add it's part.
Thanks for reading, and thanks for your video presentation (O:
Thank you for watching Gary. Great to hear about your experiences 😊👍
Subwoofer’s contribution to mid-frequencies can be explained: if you have a piano with strings - when you hit a low note, then you will find that the strings an octave higher will vibrate too and add to the sound. This is also why in an ensemble such as a string quartet or bass guitar in a band are very important. As always: thank you for providing lots of useful information in your video!
Thank you WK 😊👍
Thanks for this Tarun. I have a set of LS50 wireless 2’s in my living room and I thought they performed pretty well. However, when I added a Klipsch SPL-150 sub to the mix it completely transformed my music! Extremely easy to set it up, no special placement needed for me - but I did apply ‘sub’tlety to the way I integrated the new dustbin (as my wife calls it). It’s all about feeling that all-encompassing movement of air but not rattling the windows. Like I say, it added so much to my listening experience that I couldn’t now contemplate being without one. Makes me want to put Hans Zimmer’s Bladerunner score on again, just to bathe in aural goodness 😊
PS. I would echo the sentiments of the post below - the Blake Mills/Pino Palladino album is great.
Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences Mark. Much appreciated 😊👍
I find by having dual subs the integration being a whole lot smoother/easier, it's probably because i have two Rel 8" down-firing T5is positioned behind the couch, which are 6"-8" away from the corners and having them both connected to each individual stereo speaker binding posts (high level input)
The biggest compliment I get is when a guest/friend ask.... "how come you get such a huge sound from at such a small speaker" 😁
That is great. Always a pleasure to hear from you 😊👍
I agree with the total plonker. Two RELs gets you closer to full range with no boomy b.s.. I put mine with all manner of budget book shelves and couldn't go without them now
Same here, two Rel Quakes on my bedroom, one Rel Storm III in the living room.
I recap the subs with Mundorf caps, and dealed with the bad Rel Acoustics decision on using the R8 resistor with just 12k-1W by changing it to the right values, 15k-3W Mills resistor (Storm III). That is it weakest point, along with R6 resistor and the four less thermic capable transistors, changed them as well.
Huge sound quality improvement...from Daweoo caps to Mundorf MLytic.
Excellent discussion. You covered all of the issues rather than just bass extension. You also note the importance of multiple subwoofers to create evenly distributed ("fast") bass. Most audio systems can benefit from subwoofers for the reasons you have well stated. I can personally confirm the advantages with my own systems, with small speakers in a small room and larger speakers in a larger room--the improvements are very obvious in both.
Thank you 👍
Once again a great video
The subwoofer crawl is indeed an excellent first step in setting up a subwoofer. The most common problems set up tend to be that the crossover frequency and level are set to high. What is required to get a seamless integration with the main speakers is getting the phase set just right. If the sub you are considering only has a 0-180° switch forget it. You will probably never get it to integrate. You should only ever buy a sub with a continously variable phase control. Getting the phase right is the most difficult aspect but has a huge impact.
A subwoofer should be conspicuous by its absence not its presence.
Well said Nathan 😊👍
Great video. Had my REL Q150 for 20 years as well. Mines setup perfect. I know this because when I show off my setup (well did haha) people would ask why I dont use the sub. Then i disconnect the neutrik, everyone is amazed because they hear the subs in other setups. On the lookout for a second Q150 as I think even the older REL subs like ours are perfect for music and the Q150 is a great size and goes down to 19hz which I fully believe. Youd get 2 of those in your space no problem 👍😉
Thank you James. Great to learn about your experiences. Please let me know how you get on with the second sub when you get one 😊👍
Gold standard in advice and reviews 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you Mike. Much appreciated 😊👍
Just bought e Rel t5i so far absolutely happy with that purchase
Cool 👍
I have been toying with adding subwoofers for ages and would love an in-depth video on integration.
That is something I should do at some point 😊
I definitely agree on subs, Tarun, and it's really not just about bass extension. Listening to solo cello recently, an instrument that bottoms out around 65Hz - which is easily handled by my main speakers. But with the sub, it sounds so much better in a way that's hard to describe - just more like a cello.
Thank you Alan. My experiences match yours 😊👍
The spatial information is in the 20hz to 60hz frequency band.
There are harmonics in musical instruments. The note might be 65 hz but it could have a harmonic at 32 hz.
Dr. T, I never knew low bass has a positive influence on the mids and highs. I will be looking into that, Thanks for a little book learning!
Thank you for watching and your support Jeff 😊👍
Great video as always Tarun!!
Very important topic you chose.
Subwoofer (s) benefit 2 channel listening greatly.
Thank you Sandeep. Hopefully, this video may peak the interest of some audiophiles who haven’t not tried subs as yet 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 yes, absolutely. Subwoofer set up is an art though. I hope you will talk on the subject sometime in future. It will help many many new audiophiles. I am absolutely certain that your style of explaining the topic with enough information and mixing it up with right amount of technical stuff will help them enormously.
@@san01yt thanks Sandeep. I may include it in a subwoofer review 😊👍
hi tarun .another great review .ive used subwoofers for about 20 years .there a must .might have mentiond before .i lived in canada for many years and find that they were more common in north America than in the uk .mybe not as much now .have been home 3 years now first thing i did was get myself a subwoofer..mind you had a couple of garbage subwoofers in my time .keep the good work up best Archie 😊😊😊
Thank you Archie. Great to learn about your experiences 😊👍
Not a bass junkie, but when I started using a sub with my open baffle speakers which as you know is almost a requirement I went wow! Now I have a regular pair of floorstand speakers it's still wow! It adds and helps the overall sound and you can't tell the sub is there.Set up properely subs are fantastic in any system as stated two are better than one if you have the space.
Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences 😊👍
I would love to hear your well explained take on subwoofer setup, they're definitely underrated.
Thank you. I will probably do that in a future episode 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Yes i would love to hear your take on that too! Have no subwoofer yet but really looking to add one to my system.
@@davidbujanowski8339 thank you David 😊👍
Thanks Tarun.
Well produced video with some beautiful system photos to illustrate your explanation. I always wondered if that was a REL or newer BK sub in your room. Understandably you would not be using it to review speakers but for your own use it makes sense to achieve full range.
Both my systems are 2.2 REL setups.
DSPeaker Antimode 2.0 gets you (almost), flat to 20hz if you want to hear the traffic/train rumble of the recording venue;-)
Agreed that it's more about scale and space!
Thank you Carlito. I am envious of your 2.2 setup. The 2nd sub would certainly help even out the bass across my room 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 well I'd love to hear that classic rel strata, tho my LRS are purported to work better with smaller driver subs;
Thanks Tarun, couldn't agree more. I run Focal 948's which make good bass but having a pair of subs set up properly makes them sound better, no caveats. If you have the space and the budget your system will be enhanced.
Thank you Jim. I appreciate you watching and sharing your experiences 😊👍
Thanks for another interesting and informative video, pitched at the right level with no spurious information
Thank you Trevor 😊👍
Thank you. Have just got my first subwfr. for use in 2-channel set-up with standmounts. It does improve the whole presentation. My only slight issue is finding the optimum tuning to handle different genres of music, given it's not practical to get up to fiddle with the controls all the time - they are inaccessible. I guess because it's still new to me, I am finding recording/genres now sound wildly different because of the added dimension.
It takes time to dial it in but you will get there 😊
Hello Tarun, thanks for the informative video. You nailed it once again! Oh, I see a Willsenton R8 in the future.
Thank Andre. Well spotted 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Cheers from Canada.
Brilliant Info Much needed content Thanks a lot Tarun .
You are most welcome Atri. Thank you for watching 👍😊👍
Food for thought - definately! I do have a subwoofer, an old sealed 10" Artcoustic. But I have been thinking it could probably be upgraded - it doesn't do very much for my system.
Devoted REL user here. Wouldn't want to be without it now. In fact..... Looking for a second one
I would love to be able to accommodate two too 😉👍
@M S SVS make some good subs 😊
Just got the SVS 3000 micro to mate with my Totem Forests. Have not had a chance to optimize it, but out of the box I like what I’m hearing!
@@mauricecuffee7220 thank you for watching and sharing 😊👍
I find by having dual subs the integration being a whole lot smoother/easier, it's probably because i have two Rel 8" down-firing T5is positioned behind the couch, which are 6"-8" away from the corners and having them both connected to each individual stereo speaker binding posts (high level input)
The biggest compliment I get is when a guest/friend ask.... "how come you get such a huge sound from at such a small speaker" 😁
I'm 100% on board with subs... It's funny you posted this today, as I've just given a friend who needs to set up a system of his own, a try of my setup... LS50's, with one 10" sub between the speakers, and one 15" off to the side.
(here's supposed to be two 15''s, going, but one is currently very broken - I can't wait to get it back in action)
through
unitsjust tunedMy friend was rather surprised at the sound and didn't know where the subs were until I pointed them out to him. Fun stuff - he'd never heard anything like it before and thought I had rear surround speakers for a while... Nope - just the KEFs soundstage and a couple subs!
Low bass fan for life.
Wow, something really went wrong with that comment! Ah well, I suppose you can translate it to something useful!
I got the jist. Sounds like those subs are doing wonders. Thanks for watching Mr J 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Yes, basically an experience with wonderful generic 12" and some studio monitors made me realise bass was very real, music can sound amazing with the right playback mechanisms,, and the rest of my life since I've been searching for bass that clean and low.... I've not foind it, but on my journey I'm close enough that stereo is an all encompassing joyful experience with sounds all over the place!
Please excuse my half awake ramblings!... Thanks again Mr T. :D
I recently added an Onkyo sub (i live in Japan they are cheap here) to my JBL L880 Floorspeaker at first mainly to improve movies experience
But i am surprising myself more everyday as i am now listening to music with the sub ON as well proving it being a valuable addition
Love your videos by the way, very informative and sooooo british lol)
Thank you my friend. I appreciate you watching 😊👍
On the other end of the scale when you add super tweeters it seems to enhance bass and mids.
Love your reviews.
Thank you buddy. Much appreciated 😊👍
Since i dropped my home cinema setup, and switched to a set of B&W 805 Matrix, i've had my SVS 12" sub standing inactive in one corner of the livingroom. Heard it briefly with the B&Ws right when i bought them, and it sounded quite pleasant. I think i need to go try it out again, and put some effort into it.
It is worth doing Johnny 😊
Thanks a lot about the information about the bass traps. Very useful.
Thank you Benjamin 😊👍
All the music I listen to nowadays, don't use "real" instruments anymore. I'm 47 and grew up on a steady diet of Pink Floyd and Dire Straits, but have over the last few years developed a love and appreciation for techno and other forms of electronic music. It's such a sonically exciting world, and I've setup a home studio, bought a bunch of synthesizers and an extended low end is a visceral and a very real experience/requirement for me. If you have ever heard the ladder filter from a Moog synthesizer, you'll know what I'm talking about.
I mention all this here, just so you know that your audience might be a bit more diverse than people just listening to just traditional rock, etc. Love your channel and look forward to every video you put out!
Thank you GB. Much appreciated. I enjoy electronic music as well. Daft Punk, Kraftwork and Ghost Rider are among my favourites 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 There are many composers (Hans Zimmer, John Paesano, etc) out there who combine orchestral and electronic elements in their work. You would hear this a lot in movie/game osts, but they release studio albums as well...Listening to it without subs is just missing way too much. For instance, try the 'Tenet' movie soundtrack from Ludwig Goransson.
Excellent 👍👍👍👍 hope you do a follow up on setting up a sub, lots of confusing information on this topic
Thank you Hermant. I will look into it 😊👍
Excellent topic sir. For those who (whom??) feel that a room, any room, doesn't have it's own "sound" are sadly mistaken. Very good point on your part. As for bass response, rock fans might not notice missing bass below 40Hz as much as classical aficionados. Don't believe me?? Give a listen to Bach's Little Fugue. There are speaker systems that do go down to the 30Hz range. My Ohm H systems are -3dB at 32Hz. Very satisfactory for me. The satellite/sub woofer craze started here (USA) in the mid 1970's. Now it seems that most speaker designs are geared to small "bookshelf" systems. The "unobtrusive" look. A very good argument for buying vintage speakers of healthier dimensions. Ain't nothin' like a big ol' amp with big ol' speakers to move a lotta air. Don't even get me started on standing waves and room nodes.
I have EPI-100 speakers (my general use speakers) that have response to 45Hz (-3dB). Not very big, but pack a wallop. Subs are necessary for use with systems having weak (or nonexistent) bass below 50Hz or so. My kitchen speakers, Boston Acoustics A-40's are tiny and response is flat to 68Hz. They do fine in my acoustically reverberant kitchen. A sub would help I'm sure, but I don't care. Swell video my friend.
Thank you Marty. I appreciate you watching and sharing your experiences 😊👍
It's funny, as many years ago I was definately in the " you only need the two main speaker camp". However like all things hifi, I got curious and found a great pair of secondhand Anthony Gallo's TRD 3 10" subs off fleabag for £150... and after a bit of playing (floor crawling) and twiddling around with controls - to find the sweet spots, I became instsntly converted..as they extended and firmed up the bass responses and created even more atmospheric space and dimensionality.
Infact I would go so far to say adding subs and changing over to a tube preamp were the two biggest, best and most surprising sonic upgrades...so totally agree with you.
I also noticed for some reason that using the Subs high level inputs sounded better than direct rca input. Not sure why but seemed to integrate better with my floor standers.
I find the same thing with the high level as well. I suspect you get a closer match with the speakers and subs receiving the same signal from the amplifier. Even though the active sub has it’s own amp. Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences 😊👍
So elegant. As always.
Thank you Peter 😊👍
As usual, very helpful, thanks Tarun👍
Thank you Rob 😊👍
Thank you sir you definitely one of my favorites....Keep up the great work
Thank you. Much appreciated 😊👍
The frequency band from 20hz to 60hz contains the spatial information ( height, width and depth ) of the venue. I have a pair of SVS SB-16 Ultra subwoofers. When listening to pipe organ the BASS has visceral impact and produces what audiophiles call "room lock".
Thank you for sharing 😊
Very interesting tarun & well explained but unfortunately I was distracted by that valve amp behind you teasing me looking forward to that review or are you indeed teasing me 😀
It was intentional. Busted 😂👍
Good presentation. I like to think of subs as the primer for paint 🎨...it allows the music to be a bit richer and flow a bit easier but you don’t hear or see them.
Thank you SU. Nice analogy 😊👍
hi Tarun, good vid, again I find myself peering over your shoulder to see what's on the rack :o) looking forward to hear about them
Some interesting stuff coming up 😉👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 ti's a willsenton valve amp..... Some good reviews on it.. Enjoy Tarun, I've à couple of valve monoblocs 805As...only 40 watts... But brilliant.... Keep up the good work.. I've got a pair of home made speakers... Happy enough with them, could send you a photo if that's poss...
@@michaelmonaghan8026 thanks Michael. I am currently running listening tests on the Willsenton R8. I bet those 300B monos are something 😊👍
Good video which reminds me I have to address that problem. So to me this video is also a mixed blessing.
Thank you Hugo. We al, have to deal with these bass problems 😉👍
I had 2 B&W subs ,made a massive difference ,the bass wasn't forced anymore ,so natural
Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences Paul 😊👍
Agree. I have matching ASW600s stereo subs paired with my N805s. Wonderful improvement in soundstage & foundation.
@@playbackamusicloversjourne8620 cool 😎
Subwoofers are awesome! I have 2 DLS Flatsub Midi on each channel og my amp's preamp output. They ensure I get the whole range audible frequencies which makes a huge difference for instance on electronic music or even on a record like Lou Reed's Walk On The Wild Side, you really get that contrabass to the lowest bottom !! You can have any sorts of speakers, your subs will cover the missing lowest frequencies anyway!
Thank you for sharing 😊👍
Thanks Tarun for your thoughts on this subject. I will be getting two REL T7i subs to complement my LS50 speakers my room is medium sized and I think this combo will work well. Would be most grateful if you could do a detailed set up video for both a single sub and a pair of subs. I have watched a few videos on this subject and seem to end up with more questions than answers. It seems so much depends on size of room and layout of room as to the correct positioning.
Thank you John. Much appreciated. It is a complex field and a tricky video to do. Everybody’s set up is different. It would be a worthwhile video to do though 😊👍
Subwoofers and acoustic treatment. By far the two biggest upgrades to anyone's audio system.
Thank you for watching 😊
Took me forever to get my system sounding right. Definitely better with subs, I noticed added depth to vocals.
It is tricky but worth it 😊👍
Great and consistent information. Thanks
Thank you Andrew 😊👍
A subwoofer makes your piano base tones in your music sound like your baby grand at the corner in your living room. Without the sub it would sound like a typical stereo music, even with your speakers reaching down to the 30's.
I've found that the "correct" subwoofer strength is such when you turn off the main stereo channels, you hear very "little" deep base sound, and when you add the stereo channels back the magic of deep base would "reveal" itself and you will have a much "rich" overall sound stage then the stereo alone.
Thank you Peter 😊
Excellent presentation 👏. I'm struggling to find a pair if subs with dsp for under £4000. It's a shame very few companies do subs with dsp. At the moment I've got my eyes on a friends Velodyne DD15PLUS, my other choice is a pair of Rel s/510s.
Thank you William. That would be useful. I suppose it is because most people will want to DSP up to the transition frequency of the room that you don’t see it more often 😊👍
literally just get 2 good subs for under a grand and a minidsp box
boom you got yourself high end bass
REL is marketing, Monolith, HSU, SVS, Rhytmik is performance.
Awesome Tarun Bhai! Pls do share video for review for the spkrs behind you in this review video..
Thank you Amit. They are the Fyne Audio F700s. Review coming soon 😊👍
Hi Tarun, I see you have the Willsenton valve amp... Enjoy... I've à pair of monoblocs... Not that make... 805As 40 watts per channel... Great sound... Keep up the good work sir...
Thank you Michael. My wife is smitten with that amp 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Enjoy Tarun... And once again keep up the great videos sir 👍👍👏
Yes! "Also Sprac Zarathustra" as well as any massive pedal note organ does need the subs. I have the large space so I have 2-15" placed for complete integration.
Cool 😉
A well balanced view of subwoofers. Much has been written about their application to my chosen loudspeakers (since mid 1970s) Quad electrostatics.
I have had 57s, 63s and most recently 2812s. It is only in the last year that I've experimented with subs - I bought a Quad L-series (12" version) for my TV set-up (with the small Quad 9L monitors and it sounded very impressive, so I tried it with the 2812s in my music room, and after a lot of experimentation found that it did a great job of stiffening-up the bass below 50hz - below that, although the Quads have much better bass (when properly sited) than people think, the sub just adds that extra whoomf on string bass, and the largest orchestral bass drums (quite often 38hz, or therebouts).
I have now replaced the L-series in the TV room with the smaller Quad sub, and with the Quad 9Ls (driven by Quad Vena 2 play) it sounds very good on both film and music.
Thank you for sharing your experiences 👍
In the process of upgrading most of my system due to age and poor long term storage, 20+ years in a loft is never a good thing, so one of the suggestions from the hifi dealer was have a sub woofer they work really well when set-up properly, that got a ‘never in a million years’ type response, not having one of those bits of tat in my hifi system. Yes, you’ve guessed it, I have one on loan and am loving it, nice little REL which is set up as a lazy operator, only working now again, no overpowering bass, just a little rumble every now again to let me know it’s awake.
That is great Martin 😊
I'm impressed with your channel! I recently cleared out enough space so I could place a pair of REL 5/tx. The difference is amazing- they really let my Maggies do what they do best.
Thank you. That is great 👍
Thanks for sharing... I hope little by little, audiophiles can be more informed and educated with Acoustics Science. You did a good job debunking myths... I am looking forward for more of such debunking series... Next, maybe on speaker cables and amps... but I suspect if you go down the route of objectivity, there will be a lot of negative sentiments...
This is why I respect RUclips content such as Audioholics, Audio Science Review, Joe n Tell, etc...
Thank you Kevin. If you will allow me I would just add a word of caution.
My belief is that measurements and science are at the basis of our understanding of how this stuff works. That doesn’t mean that it explains everything. People who believe that are missing how science fundamentally evolves. It is a modelling mechanism used to determine causality by a process of inductive and deductive reasoning. The determinations are only valid within the framework of the model. Just look at wave/particle duality and you see how quickly we hit the limits of our understanding. This is something that I try to instil in my students when they are learning Physics. The words “truth” and “facts” smack of a certain dogmatic faith in the results that is a counter culture to genuine scientific progress. Sorry, you got me on one of my soap boxes. I will end with a quote from one of my favourite physicists, Richard Feynman, “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”
@@abritishaudiophile7314 I’m glad you brought up Feynman. What a character he was, and brilliant. I really enjoyed the book “Genius”. I should read the books he has written though. Any suggestions? Nothing that’ll go way over my level of understanding though.
@@Steveh817 they can be pretty heavy going but the Feynman lectures on Physics are probably a good place to start. Also, I love the way Michio Kaku explains stuff and Brian Cox has a way of making things very accessible 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 didn't expect a reply but really appreciate your view on this topic. While I do agree with your fundamental view on how science has evolved, there is no denying that there are great amount of objectivity studies done in the fields of audio science and even in psychoacoustics. This really leaves the realm of subjectivity very little room for debate; yet audiophiles here and many ignore this fundamental fact and keep drumming up their mantra of "trusting your ears". They placed more faith in subjectivity instead of the other way round.
Just to add on to the problem, manufacturers and marketing executives took advantage of buyers' ignorance and start selling cables and equipment at unreasonable price while marketing them with exotic claims. Take a pair of Black Rhodium Charlestown DCT++ speakers cable... god, a pair of these would set you back 4700 pounds... the marketing material claims that it will tackle unwanted vibration and produce clean sound; yet if you look at the specs, there isn't any published numbers in terms of resistance, capacitance, etc, which we know for a fact such parameters will affect sound. I am in the opinion, if they claim it will reduce vibration, then they need to prove it either in measurements or empirically by means of an blind AB test.
Never have I seen any industry paddle so much falsehood as the audio industry. Are audiophiles really that foolish to ignore the established sciences led by pioneers such as Dr Floyd Toole and the tons of white paper written and published by the Audio Eng Society?
Anyway, I am not an influencer... it is up to more youtube content makers such as yourself to educate their viewers. There will always be subjectivity - no denying but let's hope objectivity takes a more center stage...
www.audioaffair.co.uk/black-rhodium-charleston-dct-cs-speaker-cable
@@kevincheong1516 I think we are pretty much on the same page Kevin. What can be explained objectively should be explained objectively. The Hifi industry and in particular the cable manufacturers have not showered themselves in glory when it comes to transparency and weeding out snake oil merchants. I just like to leave the door open to science not necessarily being able to explain everything. Certainly when it comes to how our brain interprets information. Thank you for indulging me in this discussion. I appreciate all the support you show me 😊👍
I'm surprised some ppl don't like subs. I'm not an audiophile, but I am a musician and without a sub you can't get the full feel of sound especially for bass instruments from all the families.
Thank you for sharing PH 😊👍
I always felt the bass of my Klipsch RF7 IIIs was lacking a bit and thought about getting subwoofers. A few weeks ago I added sorbothane absorbers between them and the wooden parquet floor. And voilà: now that the energy is not going into the vibrating floor anymore there's the punch I was missing. No need for subs anymore :)
Hi Eco, you should check out my video on speaker setup. I talk about that and other things.
ruclips.net/video/VHOYXjVJKKY/видео.html
Nice video. Allow me to put forth an analogy as it's the reason why I've not experimented with sub-woofers to date. I spent much of five decades in the premium end of automotive aftersales, i.e. with manufacturers and dealers, so we're talking new and nearly new vehicles. When the subject of engine oil additives would come up our response would be that "you're already buying some of the most expensive and high-quality engine oil on the market; why would you add anything to it?" And we wouldn't. Suppliers would come in, wanting us to sell their products, but I would not.
I use a pair of very nice Tannoy DC8T floor-standing speakers that I consider to be a premium product (with an Arcam amp and a Denon CD player). They're used almost exclusively for music listening, usually classical, but some classic rock. On occasion, I would like a touch more bass, but it seems to be music-specific.
Quite a few vloggers are recommending sub-woofers (e.g. yourself, Paul at PS Audio), so I'd like to experiment with them, but it's currently a challenge for me at this time and place. Thanks again for the informative video.
Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences John. I loved your analogy 😊👍
I've used my Rel Strata III for close to 20 years. With a few pairs of main speakers. From time to time I take it out of my system but it always come back!
Great subwoofer 😊
yes: most two way monitors( eg 6.5 inch drivers) start rolling off around 80 hz and are down 3+ db @ 50 hz.Accordingly a sub is needed to fill in the bass down to, lets say ,the 60-35 hz area.ML has a great 10" sealed sub with room correction and phone adjustment:very musical. Makes a huge improvement to fill out the sound to the full human audio range @ a reasonable price.
Thank you for watching and sharing Todd 😊
Another thing that is a benefit with a sub is that you can get the entire sound represented at low volumes. Without a sub a lot of speakers dynamically don't come alive until they have 15 or 20 watts into into them
Well said Joshua 😊
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Hey I have another track suggestion Check out Tess Henley Wonderland. Her vocals and musical style is very nice.
Thanks. Will do Joshua 👍
I don’t need a sub woofer because I haven’t got sub standard speakers 🤣🤣. Sorry,Tarun, couldn’t resist.
Great video, as always. By the way, just upgraded my crossovers with really nice components and my non-audiophile wife is astonished by the difference she can hear. Mostly Mundorf caps and aircore inductors, plus a couple of Hoveland bypass caps. Also went for Mills wirewound resistors and lovely OCC copper link wire. About the same price as a decent sub and definitely my preferred upgrade route.
Thank you Mark 😊👍
As I once read a hifi journalist write(more or less), "How can you miss out on an entire octave and claim to have a high fidelity audio system".
It certainly increases my enjoyment of music 😊
Thank you for the instructive video. Concerning the “crawl”, I’m sceptical. The listening position has very different wall enhancement than the usual boundary near place where the subwoofer comes to rest. The way of the sound is not as much reversible as the way of the light.
It does seem counterintuitive but you will still hear the SBIR. The alternative is to try the sub in the locations you can get away with and see what sounds best 😊
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Like so often : Crime and punishment ( trial and error) 😬
@@astra004 Good one, thank you 😊
for the last 20 years i had subwoofers in my systems. they are always fun but not the best and accurate option for sound quality.
a few thing i learn to make things work better and easier is: get sealed speakers, both mains and subwoofer.
use a tone generator found with a google search and sit in listening position and all the subwoofer adjustments like volume, phase and crossover frequency is done with ease.
Make sure you get the a great sounding subwoofer, i paid more for my subwoofer compared my bookshelf mains.
Good points. Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences 😊
@@abritishaudiophile7314 thanks for the video :)
great stuff.
I think classical orchestral music on the whole has most benefit for a sub in the scenario where you have reasonable extension in the first place (floorstanders).
- Many Pop&Rock recordings are pumped up in the lower freqs and this mitigates a little, and can be too much with a sub at 'correct' level.
- A greater amount of Bass instrumentation in P&R is brighter in tone, and the richer HF content gives the impression of bass.
- Subs add to the 'non-musical' cues (hammer hits, bow scrapes) that are primarily in the acoustic realm.
- The explosive orchestral bass drum with a 3ft skin needs a sub, the intense LF of double bass, contra bassoon, as well as general audio clues you get from recording in a large room also need a helping hand.
- acoustic jazz double bass also benefits significantly.
- 'Cons'; you do get some recordings where the addition of tube train/road works/general traffic rumble accompaniment was formerly inaudible!
Thank you for watching and sharing Rob 😊
Excellent video. Another reason for a sub is that the location of speakers for best imaging is rarely the same place for best bass response. Also the larger cone and longer excursion of sub drivers will create a more realistic transfer the low frequency energy than smaller main speaker drivers. One of the most critical things to integrate a sub is setting the time alignment or at least phase. If a sub does not have a continuous 0 - 180 phase adjustment, get another sub, or if you don't mind digital, add a DSP with delay and phase. Unfortunately, setting those settings takes some understanding and equipment. But equipment is much less expensive today. In most cases for two subs, it will work best if the subs are not symmetrical in the room, especially if the room is not symmetrical. Finally, great place for subs is actually mid height on the front wall spaced 1/4 to 1/3 wall width apart. Since most room walls are shorter than the low frequencies trying to be reproduced, this creates a wavefront from that wall back into the room. But with this arrangement time alignment/phase is critical. And the SAR (spousal approval rating) couldn't be lower so it is rarely obtainable.
Thank you J Ked. I appreciate you watching and taking the time to share this 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Of course. I always make time to watch your videos. Not full of dribble (american saying?). They are well worth the time.
@@abritishaudiophile7314 if you can find the time, try taking two subs , one on either side of you fire place half way up the wall. I think you will be surprised at the wave front that will create. It will look terrible but should sound great. I say should because we don't get to see the rest of your room. Also remember that the low frequency cut off is determined not just by the speakers but an even greater effect by the lowest allowable standing wave determined by room size. Sorry if I sound preachy. Don't mean to as I am sure you know that. It is easy for me to be an arm chair quarterback (another american term). I can't imagine how much time you put trying to figure out what to say, how much to put in and what to take out. That's you you do what you do and I just comment.
@@jked7463 I would love to that. Right in the null created by the length of the room. If I get hold of another sub, I may just try it to whilst the wife is out 😂
@@abritishaudiophile7314 exactly!
I'm happy with quite small 6,5" active sub, >30 Hz. Mainly for DVD and TV. Even my small passive monitors go to -3 dB @45 Hz, and I use active pair for most music without sub. Easy to switch with those and third option, large 3 way 10" speakers for turntable and CD.
Cool 😎
Interesting topic Tarun.
Thank you
I love my vintage M&K push-pull slot loaded powered sub with dual 12" woofers, circa 1990's. ❤
Cool 😎
Very good advice.
Thank you 😊
I use a small wharfedale sub crossed at around 60hz paired with wharfedale Diamond 10.2. Of course the extension helps with organ music. But overall depth of soundstage increased dramatically.
Cool 😎
Got dual pb16s svs. Then added 2 Buttkicker LFE to the coils in my coutch , OMG it’s great for music I would encourage anyone to try a buttkicker out it’s awesome , love how it tugs on my springs feels like Torquey Bass , 3000watts of power into the couch, I’m in bass heaven , I can have a conversation with someone in the room and not Be blasted with output . Couldn’t be more happy with kickers
Cool 👍
Do to additional furniture in my room I have had to use smaller speakers but I remember buying a Wharfdale subwoofer to use with a pair of Diamonds so I am going to dig it out the loft where it’s been for more than 10 years and see if I can capture the base that I used to get with my AR925 floor standing speakers.
Please let me know how you get on 😉
A pair REL T5i subs really do help my bookshelves perform at their best. Depending on our musical choices, you may or may not think it's worth the expenditure. I am envious of the newer subs that are adjustable with a remote or an iPhone app.
Thank you for watching and sharing Lee 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 No one likes my opinions like I do.
I like them 😉👍
T5/i's are on sale right now and it looks like they're being closed out. I'm thinking about picking up a pair for $1100 before they disappear. My listening room is never going to be large enough to demand something brawnier for exclusively 2-channel listening.
@@alm5693 They are being replaced with a new model costing, I think about $899. I'd say grab them. As usual I got in just in time to pay the higher price.
Interestingly enough, if you do all of your listening from one particular location in the room, then the best place for the subwoofer is as close to that location as possible. In the "nearfield" the room has a lot less impact on the subwoofer's output compared to say when the subwoofer is located near the speakers. So experiment with placing the subwoofer right next to the chair or the couch :-).
While the subwoofer crawl is a decent way to find a good location for a subwoofer, a PC and a mike and R.E.W. will help you find it a lot quicker. Locate the subwoofer in the listening position and move the MIKE around the room, and to test each location run a 10~200 Hz sine sweep. Locate the subwoofer where the response shows the least ripple. And note this might not be at ground level either. For one friend that I helped, the best location turned out to be halfway up one of the walls in his studio.
Finally, for "nearfield" listening, you don't really need a big subwoofer, or more than one. For my "desk" system, the subwoofer is an 8" driver in a DIY tapered transmission line tuned to around 32 Hz. Works great!
Thank you Brian. REW and a Umik-1 are definitely worthwhile. It is a bit of a rabbit hole but I find a mixture between the objectivist and subjectivist approach works best 😊
Spot On
Thank you 😊👍
Got Svs SB1000, the system is so sealed awesomely great
Nice sub ST 😊
Id love to see a video with more about subwoofer setup!
Thank you Alex 😊
@@abritishaudiophile7314 love your channel by the way. I’ve learnt so much! Really interesting content.
@@AlexMcDermott thank you Alex. I appreciate you watching 😊👍
Very nice!
Please review the Fyne F700/F701.
Thank you Shahed. The F700s should be next 😊👍
Speaking of low bass, check this out Tarun: "Notes With Attachments" by Pino Palladino and Blake Mills. You'll be glad you did.
Will do. Thanks Tony 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 I was hoping to convert you and perhaps others to an appreciation of contemporary jazz. I love it, but clearly other folks do not. I won't bother you with it again.
One of my “wants” is to get a couple REL s812’s but my other half thinks I’m an idiot for putting more money into my current system. She’s content with her little obnoxious Amazon satellite things placed about the house. My old Klipsch La Scala’s are rated to reach in the low 40’s but when I run a tone generator I can hear a tone in the mid to low 30’s. About 33Hz and lower it just vibrates the room. I’m an old guy so I’m thinking I can’t hear below 33Hz but the real question is, why is anything happening below the rated 40+Hz range if their response is listed as such? Maybe my wife is right! I did replace the crossovers with ALK extreme slope units. Enjoy your channel by the way.
Thank you DD. I suspect that with room gain your La Scala’s are still playing at a reduced volume in the mid 30s even if it starts to roll off before then. It is then exciting some kind of resonance in your room. Or there is a problem with the tone generator 😉
hello great video. can you please tell me what speaker stand are you using behind? thanks
Thank you Deven. They are Target R4s. Filled with lead. Very heavy and sturdy 😊👍