STOP COUNTERSTEERING quickly or abruptly
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- Опубликовано: 25 мар 2022
- Should we be riding and communicating with our motorcycle, with pops, grabs, hits, flicks and twitches? One of the riding schools I took early on in my riding career said that the measure of a great rider was how quickly they could snap a counter-steer and get the bike heeled over into a corner at a very specific point.
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#countersteering #cornering #howtoride
What a great video! Thank you for everything you do for the sport - we love your enthusiasm and dedication to making riders safer!
After decades of street riding I think I am finally figuring it out and the word that comes to mind is "fluid". Everything on a bike should be purposefully executed in a smooth "fluid" manner. The bike should always be smooth in any transitions through time and space. One should be able to up/down shift as smoothly as a CV automatic transmission. Throttle and braking as well should be "progressive" and not jerky. Inputs can be done 'quickly', just not 'suddenly' if that makes sense. The few times I get everything right it feels like the bike is floating down the road under its own intelligence and I am merely drifting along for the ride. Moments of rider/mount symbiotic perfection and bliss. Hard to describe but everyone who experiences it knows that of which I speak. Really love your vlogs and on your recommendation just purchased the on-line Yamaha Champ School course.
Man, that was poetry!
@@CanyonChasers Thank you.
Yes - fluid is the word
Love it! Seems to equate with or bring to mind a fire fighter’s hose as the container for dynamic water flow, the nozzle representing a motorcycle with variable applications, and the nozzle operator the rider, all elements uniquely coming together.
Great description, that flowing or floating feeling is hard to describe but I know what you mean.
I also tend to think of it as becoming at one with the bike, fully integrated, it's a very special feeling. Cheers.
Two phrases that I think about from this are, "Wait for the weight" and "don't surprise the tires."
As always ,good advice. I didn't start riding until I was about 50, I'm now 62 and I still consider myself a novice rider. I practice smooth riding every time I go out( not often enough) and I always notice an improvement and my enjoyment level is much higher.
Don't start riding until you're 50? That's what my dad said to me when I was 18. I always listened to my dad. Not that time ☺️
Awesome video! Slow is smooth, smooth is fast is the mantra I tell myself when I find myself getting in a hurry with any of the controls. I usually slow my speed down a bit as well so I'm not riding faster than I can see, which is what makes me rush on the controls.
The best advice about riding fast and hard came when I was a teenager... from a grizzled Army Instructor left over from the days of messengers and scouts trying to curry their various charges to destinations all over the battlefield...
"Kid, forget whatever you was told about a bad ass guy wrangling a big bike much of anywhere. That shit'll get you killed. You ain't 120 pounds soaking wet, and that Rebel weighs TWO or THREE of you... Riding ain't a god damn wrestling match. It's a dance, like a Tango... gentle, deliberate, and firm. If you let HER know which way you want to go, and you're SURE about that, she'll do it for you. You just gotta have faith... and of course, keep up on her. If you don't take care of her, there might only be about 20 ponies in there, but they'll ALL get together to whoop your ass."
I was fifteen... just getting the coaching I needed to get through the DMV and get my license... AND his son had "gone half-ers" with me on a Rebel 250... SO the old guy was teaching us both. I still remember how he taught us to treat and work WITH the motorcycle... Now, I'm not sure you'd want to exactly repeat everything verbatim... BUT polish as needed, and you're welcome to it... haha
...AND he was being nice. I was about 90 pounds "soaking wet" at the time... just for the record. ;o)
I like the phrase tip in. Set ones entry speed to the corner, next the rider chooses a point to “tip in” or set up lean angle, and subsequently maintains throttle/ brake inputs as necessary to get around the corner. Returning upright on the gas only when the exit of the corner is clearly identified.
I routinely practice moderately "sudden" counter-steering so that I can rapidly change trajectory in an emergency where relying entirely on braking would be not an option. Around legal speed and on a good surface with plenty of spare grip, I doubt it is much of a risk. And in an emergency just about anything is better than colliding with a SUV. Maybe that is why they teach it in courses and in that context, it is right. Obviously, as you explain very well, if you are going fast and close to the limit of grip, then any sudden input (counter-steering, braking, throttling) can get you in trouble. I understand your video is targeted toward drivers who want to be fast, and it is correct in that context. But maybe it would be worth putting a caveat that quick counter-steering can be useful in other more mundane contexts as an emergency maneuver and that is should, like emergency braking, be practiced. Not just discard it because it is doesn't make you "faster". On a motorcycle, you never have enough tools to save your neck.
@Tyler Braden I agree. What I was saying was that some caveat could have been added so that beginners reading this do not entirely dismiss the counter-steering technique. Thanks for the "Duh", it was very respectful.
Even in an accident avoidence situation an abrupt POP or SNAP of a countersteer could land you on your head before you even get close to hitting the thing you are trying to move around. Remember, grip comes from weight. If we POP a countersteer with no weight over the front tire, a front end tuck is very likely. Even in an last-second ditch to save our skin, we are going be better served by a smooth, linear countersteer.
Assumes everyone understands what countersteering is, but unfortunately many riders do not. It is taught in the beginner Motorcycle Safety course - which was not available when I got my MC license in 1972.
This is a great video, with a major focus on traction and avoiding abrupt inputs. I would love to see you do a video that goes deep into actual countersteering. What it is, why it works, why we need to fully understand it.
I met Keith Code in 1989, he told me about Countersteering and I thought he was crazy. Turn left to go right (that initiates the turn). I have subsequently become an advocate of mentioning countersteering, after it saved me when entered a few corners too fast.
I mention countersteering to virtually every rider I meet, and over half either don't really know what it is, or have heard of it but basically ride by habit or instinct (it is the only way to turn a motorcycle, or bicycle as noted by the Wright Brothers over 100 years ago).
Riding with one hand behind your back will quickly demonstrate that we do initiate a turn by "turning the wrong way". Once into the turn, the bars and wheel point the correct way due to the "caster" effect as explained by Lee Parks (total control).
Keith Code's video shows a kid when they take the training wheels off a bike. It no longer turns like a car, and all hell breaks loose until we figure it out. But merely figuring out "that didn't work - maybe I will turn the other direction" as I wobble along is not good enough when the Sh*t hits the fan. Once someone REALLY gets it, and works with it, and notices on every ride that to deepen the turn we initiate the "counter" (opposite) direction on the bars - they move to a whole other level in controlling their motorcycle.
Forums are loaded with threads of "experienced" riders who argue this topic because they ride by habit and don't firmly have the concept of PUSH HERE TO GO THERE WITH ABSOLUTE MASTERY.
Well said on mentioning the castor effect. So fed up with riders who sat “push the right grip forward and as soon as you’re leaning right steer into the bend”. Well yea if you want to stand up and stop taking the bend.👍🏻
I love the perfect wisdom at the close of the video: slow hands make fast riders and, more importantly, slow hands make safe riders. BAM!! That is so important. Your videos are the best anywhere! I have scoured YT and no one touches the quality of your educational tips and practices. There are WAY too many channels out there of guys with more testosterone than brains, and they are the ones that can really cause serious injury or death to new riders because of their macho crap. Your no-nonsense approach to all things riding is so refreshing and so inspirational! Thanks for all that you bring to the riding community!!
Great video. You take broad and abstract concepts (conservation of energy, etc.) that might otherwise seem intimidating and make them feel more approachable. I also really liked your comparison to craftsmanship and drumming, and taking video from professional riders to illustrate exactly what you mean. I've been riding for about a year and these videos really help me wrap me be more deliberate in how I ride.
Grateful for your content - I watch many of your videos each year in March before I get on my Triumph Sprint GT, then watch many again as I do get out there - added this to my watchlist for my annual “online riding school” - thank you!
In mountain biking, I read years ago about a philosophy to “flow like water” down the trail. Which essentially meant that I should imagine how water would flow through a rough or technical section of the trail. This was meant to approach obstacles and allow my arms and legs to move underneath my torso to be stable and balanced and to maintain maximum contact and traction to the ground below the bike. I could feel the difference especially on fast downhill sections where I probably was going faster than I could process the terrain below me, my torso and bike were more stable by staying relaxed and deliberate with my motions.
I love this!
Terrific message. Nice to see you using your platform for good. I did CSS/Code years ago, which was where a lot of this originated, as well as in the TOTW books.
You are absolutely correct. I have been practicing "the art" of proficient riding since 1977 and find that to go faster, safer, it is more important to manage braking and lean angles than WOT moments. A few weeks ago I found myself drifting through a tight series of familiar corners on....a VStrom 650! 64 smoking horsepower. It felt controlled and even safe. My usual ride there is over 100hp and 50+ pounds lighter.
I am so grateful for all your advice, especially as we head on into a new riding season here in the Northeast. Great reminders.
Excellent as always! Thank you for articulating this advice so well.
Love this. Especially pointing out MotoGP. Watching Pecco, Rins and Aleix on the shoulder cam this year - it's really obvious and utterly impressive how smooth and relaxed they are on their bikes. Would be awesome to get a shoulder cam on their throttle side to see some additional footage of their brake and throttle work.
This is gold info for any rider. I really love your take on road bike riding... thanks heaps Pete...
Another excellent video. Currently I ride an Indian chieftain with various factory engine upgrades and the high performance clutch. When I’m riding roads with sweeping curves, my favourite roads, I gently ease of the accelerator to settle the front of the bike, then tip it into the sweeping curve and bring the acceleration back to where I want it. I also use counter steering to modulate the bike’s line through the sweeping curve-and all of this is done as smoothly and as gently as I can.
‘Snapping’ into corners goes against all the rules of ‘smooth is better’ with any inputs 😂 I’ve always found I’m so much faster and comfortable when I ‘slow down’ and loosen up.
Brilliant content! Kudos for the advanced lighting setup. Smooooth
Amazing content! Will definitely practice that, thanks for the tips!
There is a good reason why one of the special forces mantras is " slow is smooth and smooth is fast". Because it works!
Great advice Dave. I broke my leg when I came to a Oh My God corner last September and while in hospital and at home recovering for three months I did the online course you keep talking about... It is brilliant! I have actually gone back and watched all videos three times... such a great help for a new ish rider on the road... it along with your content here and that from Greg at MotoJitsu have been invaluable... Love your mission - keep it up... its working in my life... thank you! Phil
Sorry about the leg. That sucks but I'm delighted I could help! Thank you!!
Excellent advice. Smooth and purposeful. When we're young, we wanna be cool. Now that I'm older, I would shake my head at my younger self and be disappointed that I spent that much time doing things wrong.
Good video and good advice. I've been to that school he critiques and know that particular corner well. I think it is an excellent school overall, so this critique got me thinking. I'm going to add some nuance in case it helps someone out there:
I would categorize the quicksteer technique as a learning tool to build comfort in taking racing lines through corners, and not something that should be taken strictly literally. It helped me avoid panic and too-early turn-ins, by building my confidence in the line and in the bike's ability to turn at speed. There was also a "No Brakes" activity that immediately precedes quick steering, which nobody takes as literal advice for how to ride fast. It is pretty obvious that brakes are necessary so students learn from it and move on. Imho, both are good exercises for safely pushing your limits as a rider. Maybe that school could be a little more careful to avoid misunderstandings, but I don't think they present it as dogmatically as this video suggests, and using exercises like these as stepping stones towards more complex, compound skills is a good way to teach.
I can see what you are saying and why folks use words like “snap” even if they don’t mean what they think they mean. As a one time racer and long term street and track rider, I’ve seen so many riders limited by moving to slowly or being unable to turn more quickly. I’m not talking about literally “snapping”, but rather turning very quickly compared to almost all street riders. This is still slow for the bike, but a rate of turning speed hard for a human to make a 400 lb sport bike do with stubby clipons. Case and point, some chicanes I can’t negotiate as quickly at the end of a day when my relatively wimpy arms can’t turn the bike from one side to the other quickly enough to accomplish the feat without running out of pavement at my earlier roll speed. (One travels roughly straight while the bike is near or at the transition from left to right for x seconds at speed y)
Does this make sense? I think many fast riders see that slower folks need to do transitions faster to carry more speed and describe it thus. I’m agreeing with you, and like your chosen words, it think those might not convey a change a slower rider should make out of all the changes to negotiate a track faster.
You make perfect sense. I tried to make that distinction with the examples. Yes, we can and in some cases should mice quickly, we just don't want to be abrupt or harsh, right? Don't surprise the tires.
Just attended Champ Street, learned a lot and practiced all of you mentioned here. Was able to see and feel the difference of riding with the right technique. A worthwhile investment in my riding skills. You preach a lot of the same techniques which makes your channel one of my favorites to visit. Thanks for all that you do.
Wow! Thank you! When I became more familiar with Champ School I suddenly felt less alone in what I was advocating for. It's an exceptional program!
Great advice, well said and as always great video, thank you for all your great advice ,
Great advice! You must not have a lot of front brake until the weight transfers to the front tire. Increase your brake pressure as your traction increases, not before.
Great advice I appreciate the good info
Dude you are awesome. Dropping knowledge for those who are hungry so they can eat! 💯
As I watched this, I was thinking about that Freddie Spencer quote and was going to mention it in my comment, but then you used it while summarizing at the end. Kudos.
Really great advice. Thank you
Man, I'm glad I never got that advice! Another quality video, thank you.
I was watching Jason Pridmore at Pahrump just being so smooth shifting in and out of the corner. The guy was so amazing... Slow is smooth smooth is fast. Don't pop anything
Excellent presentation. Thanks.
Thank you very much. Learned alot
Fantastic video and lesson!
Thank you!!
You’re a great teacher. Champ school course online is awesome.
Great advice
Going back to my Army days. Weapons manipulation / crew skills. “Economy of Motion Equals Speed” Well done brother!
Yep, the early Keith Code books seemed to have that advice, can't say I was all that comfortable practicing it. Completely agree with all you say. I'm a big fan of Nick Ienatsch(Guy doing the tyre adhesion demo)
Great video as always, mate.
Really great. Thanks!
The big problem with steering gently into a corner is that you have to start turning in early.
This then means your line is too shallow, you apex too early and then end up running wide on the exit.
On the road it is safer to turn later and quicker than early and slow
Great video! Racing cars is like driving on ice when you operate at the limits of adhesion same with 2 wheels. You have X amount of grip in the tires and you have different ways of spending X, stopping, turning or accelerating.
Great advice ill practice today 🙂👍
I appreciated the Drum analogy🥁🏍️💯
As a drummer myself, I can highly relate and confirm the comparison! Drumming is ALL about technique only, NO muscle power at all whatsoever.
Tai Chi with your bike :) slow movements maintaining strength at all times, aware of surroundings, ready to flow with what might come.
I love this comparison.
Thanks for that. A friend who’s been riding since the early 90’s has been badgering me to flick into corners. It didn’t seem right
"You must do what you feel is right, of course" - Ewan McGregor
Hi Goldie you should send your friend the link to the video
The great video! Thank you!
It has been said below but I agree so much. Great message, great video, great channel. Thanks, so much
In my opinion, every so often, we all have to go back to school. This was the exact topic that I needed to revisit. Thanks!
I'm 66 now. When I was 20, I recall a pal giving me short pillion ride on his Kawasaki 250 triple of about half a mile to another friend's house, as my Honda 750 was off the road briefly with failed fork oil seals. He threw the bike from side to side near parked cars when he was unsure if oncoming cars were going to let us through. I was glad to get off. A couple of months later, he crashed into a stone bridge and was killed.
Well said!
After watching this video and had a little chat with my bike. When I was finished she started singing me a song from the Pointer Sisters. "I want a man with a slow hand, I want a lover with an easy touch. I want somebody who will spend some time,
not come and go in a heated rush. I want somebody who will understand, when it comes to love, I want a slow hand."
My bike won my heart over that day, and now we dance in bliss!!
ROFLMAO!
Great video!
Noice video. Thanks dude. 🤙
Great advice as usual, I think at this stage Honda and MM can use your advice, if I was with Honda I would have employed you as a personal riding instructor..or not..seeing KTM is doing so great
Greetings from the PPRC great advice as usual. Thanks.
Portland Pearl Rotary Club!?! 😎
Well said
Thanks!
Thank you!!
Good Video!
Excellent video.
I always think of it as carving. Carving a line.
Just me.
Thanks again
I like it! Flow like water is another one I often hear.
Outstanding. Key to riding any bike. Happens to be key to flying an airplane too!
Brilliantly put across. Fast is Smooth, smooth is fast.
I have heard those garbage terms for years which never made sense to me. This was an outstanding video! Thanks for your time making it.
Another brilliant education!! I am no longer going to use the word "flickable". Rather the word manoeuvrable might be a smoother description. Great vid for a relatively new rider like me wrestling with old rider advice. Thankyou!! 👍
You earned a sub 👌🏻
Thank you!
Learning to Quick flick a motorcycle is essential as learning to use the brakes to the fullest potential.
With or without the pub talk advice, a lot of riders get the wrong impression or come to the wrong conclusion by watching fast riders. They see the bike bobbing and weaving and moving about and think that is part of riding fast. And then they either purposely emulate the style, or tolerate the roughness in their own riding. What they don't realise is that the only reason fast rider's bike moves about is because they are on the limit. If the fast rider slows down just a poofteenth he is smooth as glass and ten seconds a lap faster.
My advice; road or track, dirt or tar, slow down, ride smooth and the speed will come.
Well said!!
Smooth, smooth, smooth is the key. Smooth brake modulation, counter steering, turn-in and throttle application are the keys to street riding. I recall Matt Birt (MotoGP announcer) commenting on a super slo-mo of Marc Marquez going from trail braking to throttle saying “slow hands make for fast riders”
YES! I love it!!
Great video. Thanks to share your insights on cornering skills. With smooth brake, and smooth throttle control. I drive safer now.
Awesome! I love it!
It's funny, because at the track that video is what always flashes in my mind when entering a corner. Until I saw you show someone at the track the same thing. Now it's you in my thoughts...lol. see you April 16th
Awesome. I can't wait!
That title had me wondering…. Good video, great explanation as always.
I was hoping curiosity at such a weird phrase would bring people in to watch. :)
A few aphorisms come to mind: "Haste makes waste", and, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast".
I tried steering quicker and quicker as i thought this more efficient until i steered too quick on a right hand bend. The tyres did not grip the bike went straight down on its side the right foorpeg violently hit the ground flipping me over the highside. Almost wrote off the bike, new frame needed and many weeks on crutches.
This video is good advice. Take it !!!!
Man, this makes me sad. I went to a school that said “it’s impossible to counter steer too quickly”. But you and I both know that’s not true.
@@CanyonChasers thanks needless to say, i never did that again
Highsides only happen due to loss of rear traction.
To lose rear traction so early (I say early, because you said "floorpeg," so you're talking cruiser-limit of ground clearance), you may have leaned too far and hit the floorpeg. Or maybe you had just closed your throttle right before you did it, producing too much rear brake for the amount of lean, losing grip on the rear tire.
@@mildyproductive9726 maybe i misled you by saying highside, neither tyre gripped the road. I slammed it down by counter steering much too fast for the grip available. I refer to the book a twist of the wrist by California superbike school which i attended. It says" when you can steer so quickly that your tyres grip the road you have reached the limit of adhesion" I am convinced this was the root cause of my accident
@@mildyproductive9726 just so you know i was riding a honda fireblade at the time not a cruiser
Can someone help here pls ? Regarding counter-steering. I know how to, I am doing it on the road but I am not sure about the movement. Let me explain:
So, I should push on the left handlebar (for ex.), with a fast movement or just a normal one. Maybe slower. Sometimes I doit slow, sometimes a lil faster. At speeds of 60mp/h, I should execute the move with more speed ?
Many say, do the counter steer but almost none, doesn't say like : Do the maneuver fast, or slow ?
How is it then ? Whats best do to ?
So, the countersteer initiates lean, right? Once the lean is initiated we need to allow the front wheel to "steer" in the more traditional sense. Now, these movements can be very subtle or noticeable depending on the kind of bike we are on (cruiser vs, ADV bike) or the speed we are traveling.
But, to answer you question, the rate of press is directly related to how quickly we want to initiate that lean. There isn't a requirement to snap the bike over onto it's side rapidly in the vast majority of situations. A swerve or a fast transition, being common exceptions and even then, it should be done quickly, but not abruptly. Not a snap or a flick.
When we are trail braking, gradually decreasing brake pressure as the bike begins leaning, the countersteer can sometimes be so gentle, and so subtle, we may not even be aware that we are doing it, unless we are paying a lot of attention to the sensations in our hands.
I'm in the process of taking the Champ U course online and if I take nothing else from the course it will be to do everything smoothly and precisely. It's the best money I've ever spent on motorcycling. I must say I've also learned a lot from Canyon Chasers. Because of you I am a proficient trail braker and it has saved me more than once.
❤
Thank you. Means a lot to see more riders safer, faster. Growing the sport!
I love Your videos, but where is the guitar at the end ?? 🎶
WFO FTW! And all that other smart, well thought out, and life saving advice too.
Thanks for busting stupid riding myths. But really, opportunity missed to sneak in some footage from 'So you think you can Dance' 😁
oh man, how did I miss that?!?!
@@CanyonChasers All good, man; your message was loud and clear. I'd say you need to react fast (in your head) but respond smoothly (with your body) - this holds true probably 99% of the time for most of us weekend warriors 😜
Are they maybe referring to not being lazy Counter steerers? I've struggled with this late tip in on streets message because it potentially implies that pop ypu are talking about. I'm starting to think its just referencing deliberate action at the late turn in point but this still has to be execute quick from position point but linear?
You want to apex late on the street, that's not lazy, it's good technique and safer. "Lazy" counter steering is something I've never heard of, it sounds like someone who is abrupt trying to throw shade on people who are smooth. You can be smooth and deliberate, the two are not mutually exclusive.
@@BlindIo42 yeah lazy being opposite of deliberate, i thought about it some more and make sense
Right. We can and may need to move quickly, as I tried to illustrate with the examples, but we don't want to be abrupt or harsh. We don't want to surprise our tires.
As I always tell my basic rider training students, “If you give a motorcycle abrupt input, it will give you abrupt output! Be smooth, be deliberate.”
I love it! I remember when I was teaching MSF, it was amazing some of the crazy things we'd see new riders get away with if they did whatever crazy thing "smoothly" right?
And then I watched a girl high-side at about five miles an hour with an abrupt input. I didn't even think that was possible.
Excellent. ATVB
The old adage "smooth is fast" is old for a reason.....because it's true. If you are making abrupt movements/inputs, your brain does not have the time to process the loads on the motorcycle going up/down. Exceed the level of grip available, result is loss of traction / crash. Too many riders equate smooth as slow. Going to Champday, I focused on that first/last 5%, and linear inputs. I still have a long way to go, but it improved my riding/control considerably.
Just listen to the Pointer Sisters’ “Slow Hand.” It’s all you need to succeed :)
Yep, couldn’t agree more….now where are we on the KTM? I’m checking constantly for updates, thought this was it!!! 🏍
Next video - the bodypanels are in paint right now! (I'm stoked too!!)
This is really good advice. Slow hands also means a slow and calm and deliberate mind. You can think through everything that you're doing, think about that next turn, etc. Sometimes when I'm riding I like to narrate my thoughts out loud, it helps me to focus on what I'm doing. "Okay, now a nice slow lean to the left, not quite to that line...car on the left...slower here, now out of the turn...." It slows me down and makes the ride a lot more enjoyable.
Love it!
Totally agree, but if the speed goes up, you need to flip the bike faster don't you? In a most smooth and fluent controlled way, but faster,
We just need to respect the available grip. Load the tire before we work the tire!
You can be quick, but not sudden. If you watch the really fast guys on the track you will see they can make the bike change direction and move from leaning left to right and back again quickly - but they are never sudden or abrupt.
As Simon Crafar says: commit to the corner and make the bike follow. 🥰
All that "pop" and "twitch" kinda goes against the adage of "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". Also "sending it" is more from the dirt world and has a different connotation. It applies to situations with a dirt bike or mountain bike where you have to commit to a technical feature in order to clear it, where if you hesitate you will crash. It kinda can apply in the street and track world where you should commit to the corner and avoid things like target fixation and adding braking mid-corner which stands the bike up and makes it more likely to run wide.
We'd disagree about adding brake mid-corner - we do it every ride. The corner won't adjust itself for us :)
"Don't do it abruptly" applies universally; not just for countersteering.
I like to fold my bike into a corner, and press it gently if needed, then roll on the throttle as soon as I spot my exit path.
Counterflowing
As a rider of an older Triumph Thruxton, I use mostly hope and prayer to get me safely round those fast corners. It's mostly going OK.
I’m kidding. I use gentle input and a lot of learning in.
I figured as much. The comment was still funny! I laughed.
I'll watch more later.