John, I lived in Houston, TX during Hurricane Katrina and I watched the news broadcast about what was going on in Louisiana and I heard the quote you related that there were two main groups that came to help. The Mormons and the Helping Hands. Of course both from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Very good episode. We live in a time of transition for Christianity. Many churches are abandoning the cherished principles of Christianity while embracing philosophies and ideologies that do not reflect the faith of many of their members. When President Nelson implemented the “correction” to the name of the Church, he unfurled a standard to which those Christians being abandoned by their churches can gather. Though many of these faithful Christians would not gather to a “Mormon Church” standard, they will eventually gather to a “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” standard. This gathering will accelerate as Christ-centered Christianity, Christianity that has at its center the testimony of Jesus Christ as the literal Son of God, continues to disappear in the world.
Love how you all help me to enjoy my sturdy not to make it boring. Love your insights. Thanks for another full filling study. Thanks for your guest pres .and his humility. God bless you all
I think this may be what you were talking about, John: My family and I were living in the Dallas, Texas area when Hurricane Katrina hit, and my husband went with many others from our ward and stake to help with clean-up. After he returned, we were watching the news, and a person they were interviewing said, "We have had help from many people, but the most help has come from two churches: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Mormons. Of course, we and the rest of the ward had a good laugh about that and said, "Look at that! We did the work of TWO churches!"
When talking about Stakes being a refuge…was that the word? Look into how the stakes of Cedar City literally came together and SAVED people and their homes from the floods this summer. It was all organized beautifully THROUGH the stakes.
In 1961 they organized the Alaska Stake, they stated at this time that there were only 2 Stakes that were created that did not have the numbers that were normally required. The firsts Stake in Germany was created as a buffer against Communism and the Stake in Alaska was created to prepare for the return of the lost 10 tribes!
That was said two churchgroups... the Layer-day Saints and the Mormons, by the Oklahoma Governor or Oklahoma City Mayor afterthe horrific tornado that swept through the area!
In hymn book it says Adam-ondi-Ahman Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835. Love your session here thank you. What's that Dr Belot, difficulties? What are they? Never mind I know the answer. You are a great group. Very interesting. I am in Australia. Waiting for a temple to be built in Tasmania-my state. More places with much more need will get their temples first but that's ok I have much family history to correct, add to and share to temples.
It is not that it is needed more for we all have a need of a temple. If it was, we'd get another one where I live. I have to schedule a session three months out. And I know I am VERY blessed to have one close. My sister had to travel all night on a bus to get to one! Temples are placed by revelation. It is the governments and this stupid pandemic getting in the way right now. The Lord has a reason for all that he does. Just hold on. Keep doing your family history. Your ancestors are cheering you on!! That is so wonderful to hear your getting a temple!!! You got this.
The Old Testament was always daunting to me. I don't know that I've ever learned so much about the gospel my entire life as I have this year and I'm overflowing with excitement on doing this with the Old Testament!
AOA is mentioned in 1832 in DC 78:15. That could be where the name was first introduced and the idea came from for the hymn. AOA was a line upon line revelation. Also mentioned in 1835 in DC 107:15. So 116 wasn't a new idea to them. Seems like it was more of a "this is the place " moment.
Strengthened again to press on. Every podcast (I watch on RUclips) is a gift. The miracle of the Church's growth when, as Dr Belot pointed out, it had every worldly reason to fail, gives me determination to press forward in this 8th decade of life when I sometimes wonder what I have thus far become. Loved his personal share. Love you guys! Thank you.
Your story about Issac Russell wasn't accurate. I was just in a seminary teacher inservice meeting yesterday, Saturday, October 9, 2021, and the S&I instructor at the Lawrence, KS Institute (and coordinator over the Seminaries three stakes in Kansas) discussed the story with us. Issac Russell joined the church in Canada and Bro. Turley helped convert him. Issac served a faithful mission in England when others left because of the persecutions. When Bro. Russell returned from his mission, with several new converts, he found the area abandoned so became confused about what was to happen next thinking maybe he was to lead the Church now. Bro. Turley's arrival at Isaac Russell's was a shock to Issac because he didn't know that he was even still alive let alone where he moved to. Bro. Turley went to Isaac's home to show him the revelation and let him know that Joseph was a prophet; they had managed to fulfill the revelation in D&C 115:11 despite the mob's threats. He also let Issac know that Joseph was against his excommunication. Bro. Turley tried to persuade Isaac to come back to the Church. There's much more to the story from there to his death. Our inservice leader had heard the story how you shared it but it didn't sit well with him. He then did some research to find out more. I'm sure if you reach out to the director there, he'd be happy to share his sources with you.
David Perry forwarded me a message he received from you regarding some concerns you and an S&I instructor had regarding an exchange Hank Smith and John Bytheway had on one of their recent podcasts about the incident involving Theodore Turley and Isaac Russell following the April 26, 1839 meeting of the Twelve at the Far West. I hope the following information will prove helpful.
The best source for information on the life of Isaac Russell is an unpublished, but fairly well researched (and lengthy) biography of him by Paul C. Russell, a lineal descendant. However, there are some glaring deficiencies in his narrative, most of which deal with the author’s interpretation of Russell’s excommunication as it related to the events and time sequence of the Missouri-Mormon conflict during the fall of 1838. Although it was written nearly thirty years ago, it is still the most comprehensive essay on Isaac Russell, but again, it has its problems.
The incident about Theodore Turley going to Isaac Morley’s home in Far West on the morning of April 26, 1839, is somewhat problematic, but from my own research in the historical sources, here’s what I can safely conclude:
Isaac Russell demonstrated great devotion during his mission to Great Britain in July 1836-May 1838, although he occasionally experienced correction from Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, and Joseph Fielding. Russell accompanied Elders Kimball and Hyde when they returned to Kirtland in May 1838.
Isaac Russell left Kirtland in July 1838 with a group of Saints and arrived in Far West, Missouri sometime in August.
Orson Hyde made an application for Isaac Russell to receive a lot in Far West, Missouri, on August 31, 1838, but it was denied (so Russell was definitely in Far West at that time). I suspect the reason Russell’s request for a lot was denied was because he planned or was expected to settle in De Witt (Carroll County), where most of the Canadian Saints who had immigrated to Missouri that summer had settled.
Joseph Smith assigned Isaac Russell leave Far West and go meet a group of some thirty immigrant Latter-day Saint families from Ohio at the Mississippi River town of Louisiana, Pike County Missouri (about 20 miles south of Hannibal, Missouri), and bring them to De Witt. This was probably in late August or early September. However, when Russell met them at Louisiana, the group was confronted by a mob in the region, so the group refused to travel any further. Russell stayed with the group for about three weeks. It was during this time that he had second thoughts about Joseph Smith and told the group the Prophet had fallen, and told them that he (Russell) was “the chosen of the Lord,” and that he was appointed to lead the people. When they wouldn’t continue with him, he left them and returned to Far West. He arrived soon after Church officials surrendered to the Missouri authorities (early November 1838).
Between November 1838-March 1839, during the time when the Latter-day Saints were preparing to leave Missouri, Isaac Russell became caught up in wanting to remain in the Far West area in order to launch a mission across the Missouri border to preach to the Lamanites in Indian Territory. In a letter written by Russell from Far West on January 30, 1839, to the Alston branch in Great Britain, a branch which he helped organize, he wrote the following:
“Now the thing that I have to reveal to you is sacred, & must be kept with care for I am not suffered to reveal it at all to the churches in this land because of their wickedness & unbelief, for they have almost cast me out from among them because I have testified of their sins to them, & warned them of the Judgements that have yet to come up on them. & this thing that I now tell to you will not come to the knowledge of the churches until they are purified.
Now the thing is as follows,-the Lord has directed me with a few others whose hearts the Lord has touched to go into the wilderness where we shall be fed & directed by the hand of the Lord until we are purified & prepared to minister to the Lamanites, & with us the Lord will send those three, who are spoken of in the Book of Mormon, who were with Jesus after his Resurrection and have tarried on the earth to minister to their Brethren in these last days. Thus God is sending us before to prepare a place for you, & for the remnant who will survive the judgments which are now coming on the Church of Latter Day Saints to purify them for we are sent to prepare a Zion (as Joseph was before sent into Egypt) a city of peace, a place of Refuge. Now hide yourselves with us and all the Saints in the due time of the Lord, before his indignation shall sweep away the nations. These things are marvelous in our eyes, for great is the work of the Lord that he is going to accomplish. All this land will be redeemed by the Lord of the Lamanites & room made for you when you hear again from me.”
This excerpt from Russell’s letter clearly demonstrates he was in a state of apostasy, usurping authority he did not have and teaching things that were out of line, both of which justified Church authorities taking action and excommunicating him along with 29 others (30 total) during their meeting at the Far West Temple site on April 26, 1838. Wilford Woodruff recorded the names of those excommunicants whom he knew in his journal. Interestingly, the first two he lists were Isaac Russell and his wife Mary Walton Russell. The following is how the names appear in his journal:
Isaac Russell Mary Russel John Goodson & wife Jacob Scott Sr. & wife Isaac Scott Jacob Scott Jr. Ann Scott Sister Walton Robert Walton Sister Cavanaugh Ann Wanlass William Dawson Sr. & wife George Nelson Joseph Nelson & wife & mother William Warnock &wife Jotham Magnard Nelson Magnard George Miller Brother Griggs & wife George Walters Luman Gibbs Simeon Gardner Freeborn Gardner
Here’s my analysis of the statements by the individual (i.e. the seminary teacher):
“When Bro. Russell returned from his mission, with several new converts, he found the area abandoned so became confused about what was to happen next thinking maybe he was to lead the Church now.”
This statement is a bit confusing and I’m not quite sure what the individual is stating here. As noted, Russell returned to Far West from trying to bring the group of Saints from Louisiana, MO, shortly after the Mormon surrender in early November. No Latter-day Saints had evacuated at that point. By the end of March of the Saints had evacuated and made their way to Illinois. And since Isaac Russell had been living in or near Far West when the Saints left, he would not have been surprised that Far West was abandoned. He saw it happen.
“Bro. Turley's arrival at Isaac Russell's was a shock to Isaac because he didn't know that he was even still alive let alone where he moved to.”
Theodore Turley was a member of the Church’s “Committee on Removal” and he remained in Far West until the second week of April 1839, so he would have known exactly where the Russell’s lived.
“Bro. Turley went to Isaac's home to show him the revelation and let him know that Joseph was a prophet; they had managed to fulfill the revelation in D&C 115:11 despite the mob's threats.”
The latter part of this statement is correct, but not the first. Theodore Turley would not have brought a copy of the revelation to show Isaac Russell. The revelation was recorded in Joseph Smith’s Scriptory book, which would have been in the possession of the Twelve or the Prophet’s secretary, George Robinson.
“He [Turley] also let Isaac know that Joseph was against his excommunication.”
It was not until after April 22, 1839, when Joseph Smith arrived in Quincy that he could have learned from the Twelve or someone else that Isaac Russell had been excommunicated. It was not until late 1840, when Russell received a letter from William Law who was living in Nauvoo that he probably first learned that the Prophet would probably not have excommunicated him for his offenses.
“Bro. Turley tried to persuade Isaac to come back to the Church.”
There is no evidence supporting this statement in Joseph Smith’s manuscript history, which is the most original source for the account of the exchange between Russell and Turley.
I hope this is helpful.
Respectfully,
Alex Baugh, PhD Professor, Church History and Doctrine BYU
John, I lived in Houston, TX during Hurricane Katrina and I watched the news broadcast about what was going on in Louisiana and I heard the quote you related that there were two main groups that came to help. The Mormons and the Helping Hands. Of course both from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Such beautiful messages from all three of you. Dr. Frantz provides a wonderful perspective.
Very good episode. We live in a time of transition for Christianity. Many churches are abandoning the cherished principles of Christianity while embracing philosophies and ideologies that do not reflect the faith of many of their members. When President Nelson implemented the “correction” to the name of the Church, he unfurled a standard to which those Christians being abandoned by their churches can gather. Though many of these faithful Christians would not gather to a “Mormon Church” standard, they will eventually gather to a “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” standard. This gathering will accelerate as Christ-centered Christianity, Christianity that has at its center the testimony of Jesus Christ as the literal Son of God, continues to disappear in the world.
Love how you all help me to enjoy my sturdy not to make it boring. Love your insights. Thanks for another full filling study. Thanks for your guest pres .and his humility. God bless you all
I think this may be what you were talking about, John:
My family and I were living in the Dallas, Texas area when Hurricane Katrina hit, and my husband went with many others from our ward and stake to help with clean-up. After he returned, we were watching the news, and a person they were interviewing said, "We have had help from many people, but the most help has come from two churches: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Mormons. Of course, we and the rest of the ward had a good laugh about that and said, "Look at that! We did the work of TWO churches!"
When talking about Stakes being a refuge…was that the word? Look into how the stakes of Cedar City literally came together and SAVED people and their homes from the floods this summer. It was all organized beautifully THROUGH the stakes.
In 1961 they organized the Alaska Stake, they stated at this time that there were only 2 Stakes that were created that did not have the numbers that were normally required. The firsts Stake in Germany was created as a buffer against Communism and the Stake in Alaska was created to prepare for the return of the lost 10 tribes!
Remember back in 1990 that Elder Nelson also asked that we use the full, correct name of His church!
I loved the "reality check" given... for what is property unto me? Another great discussion with useful insights. Thank you.
“This isn’t Joseph’s church. This is mine. I’ve got this” so important to remember for our own personal testimonies and revelation
“It’s not just on a sticker. It’s reality”
That was said two churchgroups... the Layer-day Saints and the Mormons, by the Oklahoma Governor or Oklahoma City Mayor afterthe horrific tornado that swept through the area!
LOL! I remember hearing that John mentioned about Katrina hurricane. "Mormons and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints..."
You joke about the transcripts being made into a book but I would totally buy it!
In hymn book it says Adam-ondi-Ahman Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835. Love your session here thank you. What's that Dr Belot, difficulties? What are they? Never mind I know the answer. You are a great group. Very interesting. I am in Australia. Waiting for a temple to be built in Tasmania-my state. More places with much more need will get their temples first but that's ok I have much family history to correct, add to and share to temples.
It is not that it is needed more for we all have a need of a temple. If it was, we'd get another one where I live. I have to schedule a session three months out. And I know I am VERY blessed to have one close. My sister had to travel all night on a bus to get to one! Temples are placed by revelation. It is the governments and this stupid pandemic getting in the way right now. The Lord has a reason for all that he does. Just hold on. Keep doing your family history. Your ancestors are cheering you on!! That is so wonderful to hear your getting a temple!!! You got this.
Don't Let the pigeon drive the bus
Are you guys going to do the podcast next year as well? Or is this a one time thing?
Yes, we are continuing! Please join us next year as well :)
The Old Testament was always daunting to me. I don't know that I've ever learned so much about the gospel my entire life as I have this year and I'm overflowing with excitement on doing this with the Old Testament!
AOA is mentioned in 1832 in DC 78:15. That could be where the name was first introduced and the idea came from for the hymn. AOA was a line upon line revelation. Also mentioned in 1835 in DC 107:15. So 116 wasn't a new idea to them. Seems like it was more of a "this is the place " moment.
K
Strengthened again to press on. Every podcast (I watch on RUclips) is a gift. The miracle of the Church's growth when, as Dr Belot pointed out, it had every worldly reason to fail, gives me determination to press forward in this 8th decade of life when I sometimes wonder what I have thus far become. Loved his personal share. Love you guys! Thank you.
@@joyschmidt8100 Thank you for joining us!
Your story about Issac Russell wasn't accurate. I was just in a seminary teacher inservice meeting yesterday, Saturday, October 9, 2021, and the S&I instructor at the Lawrence, KS Institute (and coordinator over the Seminaries three stakes in Kansas) discussed the story with us.
Issac Russell joined the church in Canada and Bro. Turley helped convert him. Issac served a faithful mission in England when others left because of the persecutions. When Bro. Russell returned from his mission, with several new converts, he found the area abandoned so became confused about what was to happen next thinking maybe he was to lead the Church now.
Bro. Turley's arrival at Isaac Russell's was a shock to Issac because he didn't know that he was even still alive let alone where he moved to. Bro. Turley went to Isaac's home to show him the revelation and let him know that Joseph was a prophet; they had managed to fulfill the revelation in D&C 115:11 despite the mob's threats. He also let Issac know that Joseph was against his excommunication. Bro. Turley tried to persuade Isaac to come back to the Church.
There's much more to the story from there to his death. Our inservice leader had heard the story how you shared it but it didn't sit well with him. He then did some research to find out more. I'm sure if you reach out to the director there, he'd be happy to share his sources with you.
To Whom it May Concern:
David Perry forwarded me a message he received from you regarding some concerns you and an S&I instructor had regarding an exchange Hank Smith and John Bytheway had on one of their recent podcasts about the incident involving Theodore Turley and Isaac Russell following the April 26, 1839 meeting of the Twelve at the Far West. I hope the following information will prove helpful.
The best source for information on the life of Isaac Russell is an unpublished, but fairly well researched (and lengthy) biography of him by Paul C. Russell, a lineal descendant. However, there are some glaring deficiencies in his narrative, most of which deal with the author’s interpretation of Russell’s excommunication as it related to the events and time sequence of the Missouri-Mormon conflict during the fall of 1838. Although it was written nearly thirty years ago, it is still the most comprehensive essay on Isaac Russell, but again, it has its problems.
The incident about Theodore Turley going to Isaac Morley’s home in Far West on the morning of April 26, 1839, is somewhat problematic, but from my own research in the historical sources, here’s what I can safely conclude:
Isaac Russell demonstrated great devotion during his mission to Great Britain in July 1836-May 1838, although he occasionally experienced correction from Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, and Joseph Fielding. Russell accompanied Elders Kimball and Hyde when they returned to Kirtland in May 1838.
Isaac Russell left Kirtland in July 1838 with a group of Saints and arrived in Far West, Missouri sometime in August.
Orson Hyde made an application for Isaac Russell to receive a lot in Far West, Missouri, on August 31, 1838, but it was denied (so Russell was definitely in Far West at that time). I suspect the reason Russell’s request for a lot was denied was because he planned or was expected to settle in De Witt (Carroll County), where most of the Canadian Saints who had immigrated to Missouri that summer had settled.
Joseph Smith assigned Isaac Russell leave Far West and go meet a group of some thirty immigrant Latter-day Saint families from Ohio at the Mississippi River town of Louisiana, Pike County Missouri (about 20 miles south of Hannibal, Missouri), and bring them to De Witt. This was probably in late August or early September. However, when Russell met them at Louisiana, the group was confronted by a mob in the region, so the group refused to travel any further. Russell stayed with the group for about three weeks. It was during this time that he had second thoughts about Joseph Smith and told the group the Prophet had fallen, and told them that he (Russell) was “the chosen of the Lord,” and that he was appointed to lead the people. When they wouldn’t continue with him, he left them and returned to Far West. He arrived soon after Church officials surrendered to the Missouri authorities (early November 1838).
Between November 1838-March 1839, during the time when the Latter-day Saints were preparing to leave Missouri, Isaac Russell became caught up in wanting to remain in the Far West area in order to launch a mission across the Missouri border to preach to the Lamanites in Indian Territory. In a letter written by Russell from Far West on January 30, 1839, to the Alston branch in Great Britain, a branch which he helped organize, he wrote the following:
“Now the thing that I have to reveal to you is sacred, & must be kept with care for I am not suffered to reveal it at all to the churches in this land because of their wickedness & unbelief, for they have almost cast me out from among them because I have testified of their sins to them, & warned them of the Judgements that have yet to come up on them. & this thing that I now tell to you will not come to the knowledge of the churches until they are purified.
Now the thing is as follows,-the Lord has directed me with a few others whose hearts the Lord has touched to go into the wilderness where we shall be fed & directed by the hand of the Lord until we are purified & prepared to minister to the Lamanites, & with us the Lord will send those three, who are spoken of in the Book of Mormon, who were with Jesus after his Resurrection and have tarried on the earth to minister to their Brethren in these last days. Thus God is sending us before to prepare a place for you, & for the remnant who will survive the judgments which are now coming on the Church of Latter Day Saints to purify them for we are sent to prepare a Zion (as Joseph was before sent into Egypt) a city of peace, a place of Refuge. Now hide yourselves with us and all the Saints in the due time of the Lord, before his indignation shall sweep away the nations. These things are marvelous in our eyes, for great is the work of the Lord that he is going to accomplish. All this land will be redeemed by the Lord of the Lamanites & room made for you when you hear again from me.”
This excerpt from Russell’s letter clearly demonstrates he was in a state of apostasy, usurping authority he did not have and teaching things that were out of line, both of which justified Church authorities taking action and excommunicating him along with 29 others (30 total) during their meeting at the Far West Temple site on April 26, 1838. Wilford Woodruff recorded the names of those excommunicants whom he knew in his journal. Interestingly, the first two he lists were Isaac Russell and his wife Mary Walton Russell. The following is how the names appear in his journal:
Isaac Russell
Mary Russel
John Goodson & wife
Jacob Scott Sr. & wife
Isaac Scott
Jacob Scott Jr.
Ann Scott
Sister Walton
Robert Walton
Sister Cavanaugh
Ann Wanlass
William Dawson Sr. & wife
George Nelson
Joseph Nelson & wife & mother
William Warnock &wife
Jotham Magnard
Nelson Magnard
George Miller
Brother Griggs & wife
George Walters
Luman Gibbs
Simeon Gardner
Freeborn Gardner
Here’s my analysis of the statements by the individual (i.e. the seminary teacher):
“When Bro. Russell returned from his mission, with several new converts, he found the area abandoned so became confused about what was to happen next thinking maybe he was to lead the Church now.”
This statement is a bit confusing and I’m not quite sure what the individual is stating here. As noted, Russell returned to Far West from trying to bring the group of Saints from Louisiana, MO, shortly after the Mormon surrender in early November. No Latter-day Saints had evacuated at that point. By the end of March of the Saints had evacuated and made their way to Illinois. And since Isaac Russell had been living in or near Far West when the Saints left, he would not have been surprised that Far West was abandoned. He saw it happen.
“Bro. Turley's arrival at Isaac Russell's was a shock to Isaac because he didn't know that he was even still alive let alone where he moved to.”
Theodore Turley was a member of the Church’s “Committee on Removal” and he remained in Far West until the second week of April 1839, so he would have known exactly where the Russell’s lived.
“Bro. Turley went to Isaac's home to show him the revelation and let him know that Joseph was a prophet; they had managed to fulfill the revelation in D&C 115:11 despite the mob's threats.”
The latter part of this statement is correct, but not the first. Theodore Turley would not have brought a copy of the revelation to show Isaac Russell. The revelation was recorded in Joseph Smith’s Scriptory book, which would have been in the possession of the Twelve or the Prophet’s secretary, George Robinson.
“He [Turley] also let Isaac know that Joseph was against his excommunication.”
It was not until after April 22, 1839, when Joseph Smith arrived in Quincy that he could have learned from the Twelve or someone else that Isaac Russell had been excommunicated. It was not until late 1840, when Russell received a letter from William Law who was living in Nauvoo that he probably first learned that the Prophet would probably not have excommunicated him for his offenses.
“Bro. Turley tried to persuade Isaac to come back to the Church.”
There is no evidence supporting this statement in Joseph Smith’s manuscript history, which is the most original source for the account of the exchange between Russell and Turley.
I hope this is helpful.
Respectfully,
Alex Baugh, PhD
Professor, Church History and Doctrine
BYU