joined Zwift last week - did this test last night. Boy what a killer - having only been riding about a year at 53 years old I got 179. Lots to improve on. Zwift predicted 188 so wasn't far off
Nice attempt 👍👏. If you have significantly higher FTP from ramp compare to 20 minute with protocol, that's mean you are anaerobic dominant. Maybe you come from strength training background and you have pretty good pure muscular strength, but aerobic system still have not caught up yet and still have a lot of potential for gain. Keep up great work! The color of yellow and green even blue is not what I wanna see in 20 min FTP test. I would aim for yellow and orange all the way for 20 minutes. ADZ avg watts sound pretty good to set your FTP value. Zwift zFTP likely to underestimate ability, if rider never really do full gas 20 minutes ride...
Yeah I'd suggest doing 5 mins at 300w (or whatever your goal FTP is now), back off for a couple of minutes, repeat 4 times...and then you train by tieing those 5 minute efforts together by shortening the gaps until you're doing a 20 minute block. This is how people train for something like the hour record, they don't just ride for 60 minutes at pace from the get go. They increase their ability to ride at an effort level by breaking the 60 minutes into intervals and then shortening the recovery gaps. But specifically it might go from 5 min on / 5 min off to 5 min / 3 min off etc, but then you might do 3x8 minutes with gaps and 2 x 10 minutes with a gap - and then shorten that last gap until there is no rest. That kind of thing. Not only is that training likely to improve your ability to ride at ftp pace, it makes you much better at knowing what it feels like to ride at your ftp pace over the duration of the longer efforts. For "ride hard for 5 minutes" you don't really need that, it's kind of short enough that you push until it hurts and hold the hurt without blowing up. I have to say it's much easy to ride up a hill where you can see the end than to ride against a clock - even if both are 4 minutes. You'll drop your head and think "Right I must be nearly there" and then look at the clock and you've only done 30 seconds. One thing to remember is that it's aerobic too so make sure your breathing is good. Try as hard as you can to keep all of that tension out of your face and arms because that is wasted effort. Watch wiggins on his hour record, imagine he is suffering as much as you but his body is more or less silent apart from his legs pumping - although it's very difficult to get as quiet as Wiggins doing an effort even other pro cyclists don't manage it - it was kind of his trademark skill. Consider where you put your screen too - you describe at one point saying "I can put my head down" and that probably literally would help, sit in the drops and don't lift your head - but if you have to keep looking up to see a screen that's effort. Like many I put my screen so I'm looking ahead, but I realised it's better if it's lower because I tend to put my head down and stop looking at zwift when it gets hard - well, if you can, put the screen there so you can do big efforts and see the info - it's not like real life where you might run into someone f you look down at the road - although if you ride IRL remember to look where you're going 😃
along with the purpose of this you should not stand up doing the test as it usually engages anaerobic efforts. although, on the other hand you could argue that being able to stand up would be more realistic since you most likely would stand up from time to time doing for example a 60' climb
If you can't find the right gear while in workout mode you can adjust the trainer resistance with + and - keys (pc), this won't change the watts you're producing just your cadence (when not in erg mode). The 20min test is done over your FTP so ppl usually use cadence higher than while riding at threshold. Just use a cadence that you can produce most power with don't overthink it. Good effort.
Originally the ramp test multiplier was between 0,77 and 0,73 to accommodate what type of rider you are such as more aerobic or anaerobic. At certain point it was simplified.
@@thewattlife and yours just might be my favourite channel of 2023.. the depth of analysis in your own development is unlike the others and benefits keen Zwifters definitely. Thanks
Trainer Road has started to use a dynamic AI FTP. It is based on 10 training sessions as a minimum. So you do not have to do actual FTP tests anymore. The AI estimation comes pretty darn close to a real 20 min test. As your FTP evolves, the AI will change the numbers.
At the end of the day. It's a number we use as a measure for improvement. I use the ramp test for baseline and beginning the season or, as a benchmark before starting a program. Depending on where my fitness is I may take several ramp tests week by week to fine tune my training zones. I use the FTP test as a measure of my performance at the end of a block and before moving into the outdoor season. My 20 minute FTP reflects my actual FTP when it comes to metrics indoor (for racing or measuring fitness improvements). This leads to a very strong, and accurate outdoor season for me. Just remember, it's your number to improve on. Good luck.
I feel like the 20 minute test - and you alluded to it, is more Zwift racing specific. I feel like this one would be a more accurate barometer to evaluate which Cat you would be in, than a Ramp test would. I have found my Ramp tests personally to come out about my 10-12 min max depending on the day, for reference.
Yeah i managed to hold my ramp test result (310 watts) for 16:45 minutes but that was when i was fresh and warmed up. Im much more likely to be able to hold my 20 min test result for closer to 60 mins
Your FTP is in the settings somewhere. You can manually change it and it applies to every workout (incl. FTP Tests) you do or it will change when Zwift detects a higher FTP during a race or group ride. So whatever that FTP is, determined your power zones for the 20-min FTP test workout. If you set your FTP at 308, then 340 is your lower Vo2 zone, I believe
Ever since they swapped all the rings around in the training panel I’ve lost my bearings a little bit. Eventually found it though and reset my FTP manually (to 305) which is only really relevant to workouts and power zones.
Did this test earlier today and it used ERG for everything bar the 20 mins section... Wattbike Atom. I'd adjusted the bike's virtual gearing this time and was able to push much harder. Last time the gear options were a touch too easy or way too hard.
Yeah I think I could have used erg for the warm up, but for some reason I must have turned it off. Not too mad about it though as it was a little more comfortable in the build up to the test. I HATED the 20 mins and def wasn’t quite happy with the gearing
That is interesting, seems to be very individual depending on riders, for me the ramp test is almost identical to my 20min FTP test (355) and my estimated FTP (351( and my ramp test result 353 Watts.
I believe you have a whole world of experience that I might be lacking, which I think plays a part in being able to manage these types of efforts. Especially when it comes to a 20 min controlled effort, I felt like I was lacking the endurance. Those are numbers that I’m dreaming off and I think with more experience and quite simply more time the ability to produce/hold wattage will develop. Interesting to see that yours are so similar
Every system is aligned. For me as a weightlifter I prefer the ramp test. It’s easier and I get higher numbers 😂 I think I have to do the 20 minutes test too. But the numbers won’t be the same
One flaw I see with the estimated FTP is that it uses rolling data and best efforts over the past several weeks. If you've been doing loads of Z2 base building miles and don't have any full gas efforts for a couple of months, it will skew low. At some point, though, I just get tired of looking at it and see how far under an hour I can go up the Alpe.
Well yeah, you have to ride hard to measure how hard you can ride. The obvious thing here though, if you don't ride hard regularly then you're probably not going to be very good at it. Fitness is fleeting. Our bodies will repair stronger with stress, but they'll equally detrain if the stress stops being applied. So if you haven't ridden hard for months your ftp is going to be low, maybe not as low as your z2 riding suggests but not as high as it was. You make a good point though that given zwift has some long, windless flat roads it should be possible to measure your FTP by just riding along one at a constant wattage for about an hour. That's probably better than any of the tests which are all 0.95 of this, 0.75 of that, take the wattage from this and subtract the difference of that and round it up when posting to the internet. If someone wanted their ftp to be a figure (and that's generally the way people seem to wish things worked "I want 4w/kg" - then let's say they are 80kg, put their trainer in erg mode at 320watts and ride for an hour. Finish it? Your ftp is 4w/kg. Don't? Then it isn't. I guess if you finish it you can then worry about whether you could have done the hour at 330 watts or 340. But I think most people won't finish it because they usually want an FTP that's a round number and that's bigger than they've ever ridden. Now they've proven it isn't, they can go on to just measuring it and seeing what it is. At which point the argument usually is "Eww, riding hard for an hour really sucks" which I think means most people have an FTP of zero. They can't ride hard for an hour. Perhaps that's one reason why amataur time trials traditionally tend to be 10 miles - that's going to be about 20-30 minutes of high intensity depending how good you are. In theory, if they theory says ftp is hard for an hour then you should be able to ride above your FTP to do a 10m TT. Especially the faster you get, but in practise I bet most competitors don't have an FTP higher than their average watts on a 10m TT. And, of course, the theory for riding the perfect TT and getting the best time is easy to figure out on a flat, windless road -you do a constant power start to finish ending with you being completely spent. If you go faster at any point you'll hurt your time. If you arrive with anything left in the tank, you hurt your time. So that's it, just ride at x watts the whole way. In the real world this flat windless road doesn't really exist, maybe a long A road is close. But in zwift there are lots of them. The flat parts of zwift are exceptionally flat. You can do it with climbing too but you'd ideally need a constant gradient. If the gradient is varying then it means it would make more sense to push harder on the steep sections and back off on the flatter - and doing that makes it harder to know exactly how much to push and back off. This is why TT in the real world is more than just 'ride at x watts' and requires a bit of strategy. And no one is perfect so perhaps some benefit from going out slightly under pace and then doing the last part slightly above - that might not be the theoretical fastest way of getting their weight and size across the distance but it might be the best time they can get. No one is perfect. I guess ultimately if you want an FTP figure to tell you how hard to train then you're probably more likely to find out if the number makes sense when you train. I used to go out and ride 6 times up a local hill, each attempt took a few minutes, you'd expect your efforts here to be your vo2 max. It was pretty easy to find the pace where your whole body was hurting but you knew if you went faster then you'd blow up and have to stop - it was like a point where you could sustain a really hard effort for a few minutes. Vo2 max definition - but you didn't need a HR monitor or a power meter, your whole body was telling you. If you gave up and went slower, well then it wasn't hard at all. Similarly how to ride at z2 doesn't really require any tech at all. Sprinting? Well sprint power is completely unrelated to FTP, a sprinter who can do 1500w isn't more or less likely to have a higher FTP than a rider whose sprint is only 800w. So any workouts varying short sprint power efforts based on your FTP make no sense. Thus to me I'd suggest the only reason to know your FTP is if you need or want to ride for an extended period as hard as you can and you want to know how hard to ride. This pace is harder to gauge than a 3-5 minute climb because it should feel easy at first but then progressively more difficult - not in the same way that a ramp test is (i.e a ramp test feels easy at first because you're not doing a big effort) but if you can ride for an hour at 300 watts then 5 minutes at 300 watts isn't going to hurt much at all. Each 5-10 minutes its going to get harder and harder until the last 10minutes is going to feel really tough and you're hanging on until the end....and then when you stop a few minute later you'll tell yourself you think you could have gone harder - everyone thinks that but it's very rarely the case. By the time I bought a power meter I think I was as fit as I ever was going to get given my age, lifestyle etc. Most of the time I spent getting fitter was done without knowing my power. Today, perhaps, because power meters are cheaper and we have indoor cycling giving us power readings perhaps more cyclists might start cycling and have power from the get go, and then they'll see improved power numbers, but a lot of the improvement is simply because people get better at doing whatever test they pick to measure it.
I did a recent ramp test which came out to 319W. It would probably be nice to to a 20 min 335W test to prove if that might be accurate. I shouldn’t have a very high anerobic threshold as I have never really trained this way. Most of my outdoor rides are pretty hard aerobically but rarely anaerobic. Therefore I hope my ftp result is quite similar to my ramp test…
Interesting stuff. I haven't done a ramp test for a while, but feel like the 20 minute test is the purest number. There is the option of doing two 8 minute efforts with 10 minutes recovery. You will have a higher number and have to multiply by 0.9 to get your ftp. One day, I'll try all three (not at the same time!) and see how the numbers compare.
Yeah i think that would make the warm up and the anaerobic 5 mis easier to ride. But for the 20 min test you have to ride it in free ride- there is no erg mode available
@@thewattlifewill be doing one today so we'll see how I feel after that lol. Ramp has be down as 275w (4.6wkg) while intervals ICU has be down at 269w
I'm an anaerobic dominant athlete. The proper 20-min FTP test is supposed to have an all-out 5 min effort, then 5 mins rest, then the 20 min effort. The last time I did this test, my 5-min effort was a bit over 130% of my FTP. There's a problem with the FTP tests in Zwift. The one you did seems to have given you 5 mins at 120-ish% FTP, then a 10 min rest. The 5-min effort may be too low for some, or too high for some. The 10-min rest is too long, and you'll have recovered some anaerobic power by then. As such, the 20 min test might overestimate FTP for some people - I have suffered this in the past, as I did the test, and then I couldn't even hold sweet spot. I'm looking at the FTP test folder, and there seem to be several versions of the 20 min test. If you look at FTP test (shorter), it looks like warm up, then 3 mins @110%, then 2 mins @125%, then 5 mins rest, then the 20 min test. You could do this test, turn erg off, and just go all out during the 3 min and 2 min blocks. I have to admit, this test felt awful to do, but you have to do it. The other option is that you could keep doing the ramp test, but use a lower multiplier. The ramp test takes your maximum power (max for a full minute, plus it pro-rates power for an incomplete ramp), then multiplies by 0.75. I believe that my multiplier is more like 0.7. With some experience, you could figure out if there's a better multiplier for you.
The 20 minute test really benefits people who are really dialled in with how certain efforts should feel. I think that you need to know where your strengths lie and what sort of rider you are and pick a test that you feel most accurately represents your FTP and fitness. FTP is (was) a high end TT specific method of seeing where pros were/ are with fitness. 20 minute FTP tests are mentally and technically very involved. If you’re a TT’r then I think 20 minute tests are spot on but actually it’s just not a good method of assessing recreational cyclists fitness. I’d suggest a Kolie Moore style test with consistent effort and ramp at end.
Yeah i think i struggled with the technical side of how to ride this. Especially when i was on my own and not chasing a group or trying to hold on. Ill have a look at kolie Moore test and see if i can get one recorded.
ha- i legit had to quit climbing because it was making me bigger and wasnt helping with my running and cycling! But at one time or another... i wasnt crap at it!
I tend to feel like a world beater for the first 10 minutes then minutes 10-15 are brutal and I have to convince myself not to quit. once I get inside 5 minutes I can generally survive. you should empty the tank in the last minute but if you did the test right you won't be able to actually "sprint"
Reacted on another video before seeing this about the 20 min test vs ramptest. If you want the most accurate ftp, you beter do the 20 min test. Ok, it's harder, but that's why it is so accurate in order to find your threshold. Ramp test is just good to compare with eachother 🙂 Adz and 20 min during a race are pretty accurate aswell. Just ditch the ramptest 😂 And reason you didn't score well on this test could be a bad day or just not used to a 20 min test (how to pace etc..). I have a friend who's bad in every ftp test so he uses his max 20 min wattages from races.
I base a lot off my race watt/kg as most races are 25-35 mins long. I think my latest Zwift estimate FTP was from my ride up Alpe du Zwift. I’m terrible at pacing a 20 min test
Thanks for the reply. And what a mint time. I’ve been following your page as id say we’re around the same level so the stuff you’re figuring out is helping me too 👍 I started cycling end of April though, only on Zwift n not on a road bike. Since then though my FTP at that time is currently my Z2 now. It’s a great feeling seeing the hard work pay off. I did my 2nd trip up the alp a few week ago n that pushed me to that 4wkg marker you’ve mentioned. Cheers for the videos
It was 47.20 mate, I shaved 21mins off my first attempt back in June. I was on a group ride for the PB on the 4 horsemen route and when we got to the alp we was sticking to around 4.1wkg but if I’m being honest I felt really comfortable. It was only towards the end I asked if I can kick on and they said go for it. You don’t wanna be that guy to just leave the group when you’re in it together so I’m glad they said go for it. When I do it again I’m thinking 45min is doable, maybe even quicker but we’ll see 😎 Funny though, I’ve only rode it twice and both times I’ve got given the gloves on the spinning wheel - ill with it 😂
Just goes to show how inaccurate the ramp tests are! It’s all well and fine using the same protocol to test each time and compare results to measure progression, but when your zones are being set based on an artificially high FTP it can mess up your whole training.
I agree- theres been a lot of times ive had to dial down a workout and when i enter a workout on ERG mode i always set my FTP below my FTP Ramp test result
I think if you can establish a consistent relationship between your ramp test score and your realistic FTP e.g 10% too high then you can use the ramp test as low fatigue way of testing regularly without disrupting your training 🙂
@@thewattlifethis seems like a really good indicator that you, personally, should NOT be using ramp tests to set your Zwift FTP. You're talking about a difference of ~40w between tests, which is an indication that something is wrong. As already pointed out, you should not be drawing conclusions from a FTP20 test done only a couple days after a race effort. You weren't in a recovered state for the test in this video. An FTP test at the end of a recovery week is going to be a much better indicator, and I bet you would see a result that's closer to your 280-290 efforts you mentioned.
I agree with you, I didn't quite expect the difference to be quite so large between the two tests. Half of me thought about giving up on the test in theist 5 mins and then I thought about not sharing it but its a hard darn test (that ive never done before) so I thought, what the hell, might as well share it. I think id really have to be fresh for an FTP 20 min test but a ramp test I think you can do without having to really worry about too much recovery. @MrKipperfish @@MrKipperfish
My anecdotal input: FTP Ramp vs 20min test came out at 317 vs 316W (3,55w/kg). Background, 49yrs old, was obese & discarded 40kg of fat / gained 10kg of lean mass and have 2yrs of active riding indoor/outdoor under my belt. While I do chase the same, elusive 4W/kg "goal" myself, I am more focused on critical power (CP) on certain time intervals in order to touch on all of my power zones in my training. The idea is "broader base lift the whole ship" and eventually I might hit 4w/kg. If that happens in 2024 would be perfect as it coincide with me turning 50 :D
Thats an amazing story- i agree if you can focus on improving all around efforts then eventually you'll get to the greater goal of 4 w/kg. 4 w/kg at 50 is a great goal
Let me get this clear, you do a race on Monday, in which you did 291W for 20 mins, then less than 2 days later you think an FTP test would be accurate? Content over training. smh
This was my first ever attempt at a 20 min FTP test, i didnt quite expect it to be so brutal. Complete rest day the day before and if you look at my training load from the last week, the only thing ive done is a recovery 5km run and then the race monday evening. I thought i was giving myself half a chance...
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joined Zwift last week - did this test last night. Boy what a killer - having only been riding about a year at 53 years old I got 179. Lots to improve on. Zwift predicted 188 so wasn't far off
Nice attempt 👍👏. If you have significantly higher FTP from ramp compare to 20 minute with protocol, that's mean you are anaerobic dominant. Maybe you come from strength training background and you have pretty good pure muscular strength, but aerobic system still have not caught up yet and still have a lot of potential for gain. Keep up great work!
The color of yellow and green even blue is not what I wanna see in 20 min FTP test. I would aim for yellow and orange all the way for 20 minutes.
ADZ avg watts sound pretty good to set your FTP value. Zwift zFTP likely to underestimate ability, if rider never really do full gas 20 minutes ride...
Yeah I'd suggest doing 5 mins at 300w (or whatever your goal FTP is now), back off for a couple of minutes, repeat 4 times...and then you train by tieing those 5 minute efforts together by shortening the gaps until you're doing a 20 minute block. This is how people train for something like the hour record, they don't just ride for 60 minutes at pace from the get go. They increase their ability to ride at an effort level by breaking the 60 minutes into intervals and then shortening the recovery gaps. But specifically it might go from 5 min on / 5 min off to 5 min / 3 min off etc, but then you might do 3x8 minutes with gaps and 2 x 10 minutes with a gap - and then shorten that last gap until there is no rest. That kind of thing. Not only is that training likely to improve your ability to ride at ftp pace, it makes you much better at knowing what it feels like to ride at your ftp pace over the duration of the longer efforts.
For "ride hard for 5 minutes" you don't really need that, it's kind of short enough that you push until it hurts and hold the hurt without blowing up. I have to say it's much easy to ride up a hill where you can see the end than to ride against a clock - even if both are 4 minutes. You'll drop your head and think "Right I must be nearly there" and then look at the clock and you've only done 30 seconds.
One thing to remember is that it's aerobic too so make sure your breathing is good. Try as hard as you can to keep all of that tension out of your face and arms because that is wasted effort. Watch wiggins on his hour record, imagine he is suffering as much as you but his body is more or less silent apart from his legs pumping - although it's very difficult to get as quiet as Wiggins doing an effort even other pro cyclists don't manage it - it was kind of his trademark skill.
Consider where you put your screen too - you describe at one point saying "I can put my head down" and that probably literally would help, sit in the drops and don't lift your head - but if you have to keep looking up to see a screen that's effort. Like many I put my screen so I'm looking ahead, but I realised it's better if it's lower because I tend to put my head down and stop looking at zwift when it gets hard - well, if you can, put the screen there so you can do big efforts and see the info - it's not like real life where you might run into someone f you look down at the road - although if you ride IRL remember to look where you're going 😃
the 5' z5 before the 20' is mostly to remove the anaerobic impact on the "real 20' test".
along with the purpose of this you should not stand up doing the test as it usually engages anaerobic efforts. although, on the other hand you could argue that being able to stand up would be more realistic since you most likely would stand up from time to time doing for example a 60' climb
It definitely served that purpose. Legs were hurting going into the 20 mins. Found that i had to rely on cadence a little more than i would have liked
If you can't find the right gear while in workout mode you can adjust the trainer resistance with + and - keys (pc), this won't change the watts you're producing just your cadence (when not in erg mode).
The 20min test is done over your FTP so ppl usually use cadence higher than while riding at threshold. Just use a cadence that you can produce most power with don't overthink it.
Good effort.
Originally the ramp test multiplier was between 0,77 and 0,73 to accommodate what type of rider you are such as more aerobic or anaerobic. At certain point it was simplified.
Great to know- so if I was more anaerobic I would x0.77?
@@thewattlife anaerobic rides have an advantage during the ramp test so they should multiply the result with 0,73 and aerobic guys with 0,77
That Cinelli is fire my friend.. love your channel too 🤘🏽 Ride On
My favourite comment from 2023- cheers man
@@thewattlife and yours just might be my favourite channel of 2023.. the depth of analysis in your own development is unlike the others and benefits keen Zwifters definitely. Thanks
Trainer Road has started to use a dynamic AI FTP. It is based on 10 training sessions as a minimum. So you do not have to do actual FTP tests anymore. The AI estimation comes pretty darn close to a real 20 min test. As your FTP evolves, the AI will change the numbers.
Do u recommend traineroad ? Can u use it outside?
yes and yes@@youssefaitmenna5003
Handy to know- ive never used Trainer Road but i have friends who recommend it
At the end of the day. It's a number we use as a measure for improvement. I use the ramp test for baseline and beginning the season or, as a benchmark before starting a program. Depending on where my fitness is I may take several ramp tests week by week to fine tune my training zones. I use the FTP test as a measure of my performance at the end of a block and before moving into the outdoor season. My 20 minute FTP reflects my actual FTP when it comes to metrics indoor (for racing or measuring fitness improvements). This leads to a very strong, and accurate outdoor season for me. Just remember, it's your number to improve on. Good luck.
I feel like the 20 minute test - and you alluded to it, is more Zwift racing specific. I feel like this one would be a more accurate barometer to evaluate which Cat you would be in, than a Ramp test would. I have found my Ramp tests personally to come out about my 10-12 min max depending on the day, for reference.
Yeah i managed to hold my ramp test result (310 watts) for 16:45 minutes but that was when i was fresh and warmed up. Im much more likely to be able to hold my 20 min test result for closer to 60 mins
Your FTP is in the settings somewhere. You can manually change it and it applies to every workout (incl. FTP Tests) you do or it will change when Zwift detects a higher FTP during a race or group ride. So whatever that FTP is, determined your power zones for the 20-min FTP test workout. If you set your FTP at 308, then 340 is your lower Vo2 zone, I believe
Ever since they swapped all the rings around in the training panel I’ve lost my bearings a little bit. Eventually found it though and reset my FTP manually (to 305) which is only really relevant to workouts and power zones.
Did this test earlier today and it used ERG for everything bar the 20 mins section... Wattbike Atom. I'd adjusted the bike's virtual gearing this time and was able to push much harder. Last time the gear options were a touch too easy or way too hard.
Yeah I think I could have used erg for the warm up, but for some reason I must have turned it off. Not too mad about it though as it was a little more comfortable in the build up to the test.
I HATED the 20 mins and def wasn’t quite happy with the gearing
I'm usually a runner and this kind of session is definitely type 2 fun - good when it's done!
I did mine on wattbike atom last week too. Gears were bit weird sometimes. How did you adjust?
That is interesting, seems to be very individual depending on riders, for me the ramp test is almost identical to my 20min FTP test (355) and my estimated FTP (351( and my ramp test result 353 Watts.
I believe you have a whole world of experience that I might be lacking, which I think plays a part in being able to manage these types of efforts. Especially when it comes to a 20 min controlled effort, I felt like I was lacking the endurance. Those are numbers that I’m dreaming off and I think with more experience and quite simply more time the ability to produce/hold wattage will develop.
Interesting to see that yours are so similar
Every system is aligned. For me as a weightlifter I prefer the ramp test. It’s easier and I get higher numbers 😂 I think I have to do the 20 minutes test too. But the numbers won’t be the same
One flaw I see with the estimated FTP is that it uses rolling data and best efforts over the past several weeks. If you've been doing loads of Z2 base building miles and don't have any full gas efforts for a couple of months, it will skew low. At some point, though, I just get tired of looking at it and see how far under an hour I can go up the Alpe.
Well yeah, you have to ride hard to measure how hard you can ride. The obvious thing here though, if you don't ride hard regularly then you're probably not going to be very good at it. Fitness is fleeting. Our bodies will repair stronger with stress, but they'll equally detrain if the stress stops being applied. So if you haven't ridden hard for months your ftp is going to be low, maybe not as low as your z2 riding suggests but not as high as it was.
You make a good point though that given zwift has some long, windless flat roads it should be possible to measure your FTP by just riding along one at a constant wattage for about an hour. That's probably better than any of the tests which are all 0.95 of this, 0.75 of that, take the wattage from this and subtract the difference of that and round it up when posting to the internet.
If someone wanted their ftp to be a figure (and that's generally the way people seem to wish things worked "I want 4w/kg" - then let's say they are 80kg, put their trainer in erg mode at 320watts and ride for an hour. Finish it? Your ftp is 4w/kg. Don't? Then it isn't. I guess if you finish it you can then worry about whether you could have done the hour at 330 watts or 340. But I think most people won't finish it because they usually want an FTP that's a round number and that's bigger than they've ever ridden. Now they've proven it isn't, they can go on to just measuring it and seeing what it is.
At which point the argument usually is "Eww, riding hard for an hour really sucks" which I think means most people have an FTP of zero. They can't ride hard for an hour. Perhaps that's one reason why amataur time trials traditionally tend to be 10 miles - that's going to be about 20-30 minutes of high intensity depending how good you are. In theory, if they theory says ftp is hard for an hour then you should be able to ride above your FTP to do a 10m TT. Especially the faster you get, but in practise I bet most competitors don't have an FTP higher than their average watts on a 10m TT.
And, of course, the theory for riding the perfect TT and getting the best time is easy to figure out on a flat, windless road -you do a constant power start to finish ending with you being completely spent. If you go faster at any point you'll hurt your time. If you arrive with anything left in the tank, you hurt your time. So that's it, just ride at x watts the whole way.
In the real world this flat windless road doesn't really exist, maybe a long A road is close. But in zwift there are lots of them. The flat parts of zwift are exceptionally flat. You can do it with climbing too but you'd ideally need a constant gradient. If the gradient is varying then it means it would make more sense to push harder on the steep sections and back off on the flatter - and doing that makes it harder to know exactly how much to push and back off. This is why TT in the real world is more than just 'ride at x watts' and requires a bit of strategy. And no one is perfect so perhaps some benefit from going out slightly under pace and then doing the last part slightly above - that might not be the theoretical fastest way of getting their weight and size across the distance but it might be the best time they can get. No one is perfect.
I guess ultimately if you want an FTP figure to tell you how hard to train then you're probably more likely to find out if the number makes sense when you train. I used to go out and ride 6 times up a local hill, each attempt took a few minutes, you'd expect your efforts here to be your vo2 max. It was pretty easy to find the pace where your whole body was hurting but you knew if you went faster then you'd blow up and have to stop - it was like a point where you could sustain a really hard effort for a few minutes. Vo2 max definition - but you didn't need a HR monitor or a power meter, your whole body was telling you. If you gave up and went slower, well then it wasn't hard at all.
Similarly how to ride at z2 doesn't really require any tech at all. Sprinting? Well sprint power is completely unrelated to FTP, a sprinter who can do 1500w isn't more or less likely to have a higher FTP than a rider whose sprint is only 800w. So any workouts varying short sprint power efforts based on your FTP make no sense.
Thus to me I'd suggest the only reason to know your FTP is if you need or want to ride for an extended period as hard as you can and you want to know how hard to ride. This pace is harder to gauge than a 3-5 minute climb because it should feel easy at first but then progressively more difficult - not in the same way that a ramp test is (i.e a ramp test feels easy at first because you're not doing a big effort) but if you can ride for an hour at 300 watts then 5 minutes at 300 watts isn't going to hurt much at all. Each 5-10 minutes its going to get harder and harder until the last 10minutes is going to feel really tough and you're hanging on until the end....and then when you stop a few minute later you'll tell yourself you think you could have gone harder - everyone thinks that but it's very rarely the case.
By the time I bought a power meter I think I was as fit as I ever was going to get given my age, lifestyle etc. Most of the time I spent getting fitter was done without knowing my power. Today, perhaps, because power meters are cheaper and we have indoor cycling giving us power readings perhaps more cyclists might start cycling and have power from the get go, and then they'll see improved power numbers, but a lot of the improvement is simply because people get better at doing whatever test they pick to measure it.
I did a recent ramp test which came out to 319W. It would probably be nice to to a 20 min 335W test to prove if that might be accurate. I shouldn’t have a very high anerobic threshold as I have never really trained this way. Most of my outdoor rides are pretty hard aerobically but rarely anaerobic. Therefore I hope my ftp result is quite similar to my ramp test…
Interesting stuff. I haven't done a ramp test for a while, but feel like the 20 minute test is the purest number. There is the option of doing two 8 minute efforts with 10 minutes recovery. You will have a higher number and have to multiply by 0.9 to get your ftp. One day, I'll try all three (not at the same time!) and see how the numbers compare.
Should have put itin erg mode so trainer set resistance n you dont have to mess with gears
Yeah i think that would make the warm up and the anaerobic 5 mis easier to ride. But for the 20 min test you have to ride it in free ride- there is no erg mode available
Nice work and I used to do this test beg and end of indoor season
I guess this will have to do for my beginning of Zwift season test and ill do another 20 min test in the Spring
@@thewattlife whatever up to you. I used to do sufferfest rubber glove back in the day
Is that a certain type of test?
20 minute tests are grueling. Thats why i love them
I can confirm- I HATED IT
@@thewattlifewill be doing one today so we'll see how I feel after that lol. Ramp has be down as 275w (4.6wkg) while intervals ICU has be down at 269w
How did it go?
I'm an anaerobic dominant athlete. The proper 20-min FTP test is supposed to have an all-out 5 min effort, then 5 mins rest, then the 20 min effort. The last time I did this test, my 5-min effort was a bit over 130% of my FTP.
There's a problem with the FTP tests in Zwift. The one you did seems to have given you 5 mins at 120-ish% FTP, then a 10 min rest. The 5-min effort may be too low for some, or too high for some. The 10-min rest is too long, and you'll have recovered some anaerobic power by then. As such, the 20 min test might overestimate FTP for some people - I have suffered this in the past, as I did the test, and then I couldn't even hold sweet spot.
I'm looking at the FTP test folder, and there seem to be several versions of the 20 min test. If you look at FTP test (shorter), it looks like warm up, then 3 mins @110%, then 2 mins @125%, then 5 mins rest, then the 20 min test. You could do this test, turn erg off, and just go all out during the 3 min and 2 min blocks. I have to admit, this test felt awful to do, but you have to do it. The other option is that you could keep doing the ramp test, but use a lower multiplier. The ramp test takes your maximum power (max for a full minute, plus it pro-rates power for an incomplete ramp), then multiplies by 0.75. I believe that my multiplier is more like 0.7. With some experience, you could figure out if there's a better multiplier for you.
The 20 minute test really benefits people who are really dialled in with how certain efforts should feel. I think that you need to know where your strengths lie and what sort of rider you are and pick a test that you feel most accurately represents your FTP and fitness. FTP is (was) a high end TT specific method of seeing where pros were/ are with fitness. 20 minute FTP tests are mentally and technically very involved. If you’re a TT’r then I think 20 minute tests are spot on but actually it’s just not a good method of assessing recreational cyclists fitness. I’d suggest a Kolie Moore style test with consistent effort and ramp at end.
Yeah i think i struggled with the technical side of how to ride this. Especially when i was on my own and not chasing a group or trying to hold on. Ill have a look at kolie Moore test and see if i can get one recorded.
This is great in all, but Im seeing chalk on that beastmaker slopper and I wanna know how long you can hold that.
ha- i legit had to quit climbing because it was making me bigger and wasnt helping with my running and cycling! But at one time or another... i wasnt crap at it!
I tend to feel like a world beater for the first 10 minutes then minutes 10-15 are brutal and I have to convince myself not to quit. once I get inside 5 minutes I can generally survive. you should empty the tank in the last minute but if you did the test right you won't be able to actually "sprint"
Reacted on another video before seeing this about the 20 min test vs ramptest. If you want the most accurate ftp, you beter do the 20 min test. Ok, it's harder, but that's why it is so accurate in order to find your threshold. Ramp test is just good to compare with eachother 🙂 Adz and 20 min during a race are pretty accurate aswell. Just ditch the ramptest 😂 And reason you didn't score well on this test could be a bad day or just not used to a 20 min test (how to pace etc..). I have a friend who's bad in every ftp test so he uses his max 20 min wattages from races.
I base a lot off my race watt/kg as most races are 25-35 mins long. I think my latest Zwift estimate FTP was from my ride up Alpe du Zwift.
I’m terrible at pacing a 20 min test
What was your time up the alp holding 285w mate?
52:25. Was actually meant to be a big ring session up the Alp but i got carried away after the first few bends and felt quite good
Thanks for the reply. And what a mint time. I’ve been following your page as id say we’re around the same level so the stuff you’re figuring out is helping me too 👍
I started cycling end of April though, only on Zwift n not on a road bike. Since then though my FTP at that time is currently my Z2 now. It’s a great feeling seeing the hard work pay off. I did my 2nd trip up the alp a few week ago n that pushed me to that 4wkg marker you’ve mentioned.
Cheers for the videos
Solid work- what was your time up the Alp? Im thinking i need to give it a proper smash and try and go under 50 mins
It was 47.20 mate, I shaved 21mins off my first attempt back in June.
I was on a group ride for the PB on the 4 horsemen route and when we got to the alp we was sticking to around 4.1wkg but if I’m being honest I felt really comfortable. It was only towards the end I asked if I can kick on and they said go for it. You don’t wanna be that guy to just leave the group when you’re in it together so I’m glad they said go for it. When I do it again I’m thinking 45min is doable, maybe even quicker but we’ll see 😎
Funny though, I’ve only rode it twice and both times I’ve got given the gloves on the spinning wheel - ill with it 😂
The group ride was called WeduSufferSunday on the CatB group. It was at 2pm (on a Sunday haha). Defo recommend
You should try a test outside.
I will give this a go in Spring and compare the two- I’m only just building up a new bike with my first power meter on
@@thewattlife To do 20 min ftp inside is so mentally taxing. I also notice that even with two fans I tend to have difficulties with heat.
Just goes to show how inaccurate the ramp tests are! It’s all well and fine using the same protocol to test each time and compare results to measure progression, but when your zones are being set based on an artificially high FTP it can mess up your whole training.
I agree- theres been a lot of times ive had to dial down a workout and when i enter a workout on ERG mode i always set my FTP below my FTP Ramp test result
I think if you can establish a consistent relationship between your ramp test score and your realistic FTP e.g 10% too high then you can use the ramp test as low fatigue way of testing regularly without disrupting your training 🙂
@@thewattlifethis seems like a really good indicator that you, personally, should NOT be using ramp tests to set your Zwift FTP. You're talking about a difference of ~40w between tests, which is an indication that something is wrong. As already pointed out, you should not be drawing conclusions from a FTP20 test done only a couple days after a race effort. You weren't in a recovered state for the test in this video. An FTP test at the end of a recovery week is going to be a much better indicator, and I bet you would see a result that's closer to your 280-290 efforts you mentioned.
I agree with you, I didn't quite expect the difference to be quite so large between the two tests. Half of me thought about giving up on the test in theist 5 mins and then I thought about not sharing it but its a hard darn test (that ive never done before) so I thought, what the hell, might as well share it.
I think id really have to be fresh for an FTP 20 min test but a ramp test I think you can do without having to really worry about too much recovery. @MrKipperfish @@MrKipperfish
My anecdotal input: FTP Ramp vs 20min test came out at 317 vs 316W (3,55w/kg). Background, 49yrs old, was obese & discarded 40kg of fat / gained 10kg of lean mass and have 2yrs of active riding indoor/outdoor under my belt. While I do chase the same, elusive 4W/kg "goal" myself, I am more focused on critical power (CP) on certain time intervals in order to touch on all of my power zones in my training. The idea is "broader base lift the whole ship" and eventually I might hit 4w/kg. If that happens in 2024 would be perfect as it coincide with me turning 50 :D
Thats an amazing story- i agree if you can focus on improving all around efforts then eventually you'll get to the greater goal of 4 w/kg.
4 w/kg at 50 is a great goal
Mashallah quanto sei bello..
Let me get this clear, you do a race on Monday, in which you did 291W for 20 mins, then less than 2 days later you think an FTP test would be accurate? Content over training. smh
This was my first ever attempt at a 20 min FTP test, i didnt quite expect it to be so brutal. Complete rest day the day before and if you look at my training load from the last week, the only thing ive done is a recovery 5km run and then the race monday evening. I thought i was giving myself half a chance...
@@thewattlifetwo days feels to me like enough recoup time on a 20 min all out tbh😊