It's amazing to me that this has only 6000 views. Wilber has been cutting a philosophical path for the rest of us to walk along. I am eternally grateful. This man is a genius.
Bahahaha he is an Idea thief. Not a single one of his is original or independently discovered. He has basically bastardised Jean Gebser as well as others like Spiral Dynamics. He is a crock
You must have never heard of a 'meta' theory. Nor had I before Wilber. A 'meta' theory is a theory of theories. What makes integral meta theory unique, is precisely that it DOES call upon all of these wonderful ideas in order to outline a clearer vertical nature to growth hierarchies. Simultaneously, it creates a horizontal dimensionality using AQAL. This provides a space or a field to look at anything; a person, place, thought, with a level of granularity unparalleled so far. No one has done this. On top of this, if you've read some of his books, he elucidates some of the higher 'spiritual' territories of individual states and stages in a clear and methodical way, pulling from the greatest traditions the dankest of the dank meat. No need to go to Tibet and study Dzogchen for the rest of your life in order to find their secrets. They are laid out in his books, and there are many approaches to get to these high peaks (Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, secular). Wilber essentially cleans up spirituality, which is an extremely confusing space. The combination of the vertical and horizontal spaces leaves one with a 3D field to evaluate any phenomenon, including oneself, a collective, a company, or government. Gebser and Graves give beautiful 2D hierarchical models. However Wilber goes beyond even beyond them in their vertical findings, by exploring the mysterious 3rd tier, the causal realm, not outlined in Spiral Dynamics, or by Gebser, but known by the Mystics and the greatest of traditions. The model also recognizes multiple intelligences (lines), as well kinds of personalities (types). Wilber is as cutting edge as it gets, he IS the cutting edge. I recommend reading his book, "The Religion of Tomorrow" if you want to learn more. Wilber is an overlooked genius, a man that will, in the future, be recognized as one. Those that use his theory, will accelerate their business, spirituality, creativity, whatever... in a manner that will inevitably attract the attention of those who don't.
Doshin Roshi's attitude to life genuinely energises my soul. And I have a lot of time for what Ken Wilber has to say. But I have a problem. There appears to be a naivety about the dark forces that operate in this world. Doshin Roshi would doubtless say that we have to first recognise and work on the darkness within us. That the problems of the world are in essence the problems that are within ourselves. This is all well and good and has much truth in it. But we all know where this ends: it ends in Buddhist monks self-immolating because they ultimately have no response to the dark forces that have dominion over this realm. It ends in literally millions of lives being prematurely extinguished by those in pursuit of their own ego-driven agendas. I have spent many years of my life working 'in the dirt' to bring clarity to many people who previously had thought the situation either hopeless or were simply previously unaware of the terrible reality of who really rules this plane. I make absolutely no claims for myself - it has been an enormous team effort to bring things to the point where the majority view is finally one of righteous distrust of governments and self-serving authorities. There has to be two kinds of work operating in parallel: work on oneself for sure. But also work on the world and the forces that control it. This, I sincerely believe, is our true mission.
thanks for pointing that out...it is something I have felt as well. It's so confusing at times...the dark machine forces...is it all just a hologram we manifest from our thoughts? I really don't think so...is it our mirror...I have asked that so many times. Can it just be levels of programming each one will have to deal with in this or other lives if in deed there are others to live...It's all part of the mystery I guess. I still have to watch this video....but can appreciate what you are saying...I am familiar with these questions as they have to be dealt with in all modalities but are mostly ignored.
I agree. It was the first thing that crossed my mind. Obviously we are in the crowning Covid times, so more apparent, the healthy hierarchy is so over shadowed and suppressed by the tyrannical hierarchy and suppression or the lower tier, amplified and manipulated by the post modern ideology. It’s a good over view, but no meat on it. Doshin is a bit more social present.
Jung's Shadow. Doshin is talking about this. It is fixing society and the "big evils" at the same time as the self. The two are not separate. As we clean our rooms, metaphorically and in reality, then we create true righteousness. When you have that, then the idea is that becomes a growth heirarchy. Conflict of some form is inevitable. But really it is the conflict between ideas, and of course ideology, that drives everything. The right idea. The truly righteous one, should be strong enough where it will defeat all inferior ones. And that defeat can be in the form of integration, and not annihilation. I think Musashi Miyamoto distilled this very succinctly "for in the void is virtue, and no evil, wisdom has existence, principle has existence......" Etc etc. Ultimately this is what integral theory is getting at. It's no coincidence that Doshin is Rinzai School. Samurai Zen.... As was Musashi. It's very logical to take integral theory into Zen that way. Add his knowledge of Jung into it, and it all makes sense. Doshin was already practicing integral theory before he was aware of it as something. At least on some level.
loving this video... .tyvm. :) I'm listening to Ken, and I am thinking of the importance of discernment. While not desiring to support anything I view as truly damaging, I still love the individual and hold them in my heart/mind. I will never remain silent in the face of behaviors that I view as detrimental to spirit and safety of others. ;) Time to get off the cushion, for sure. ;) I think.
I'm not a Buddhist but I think Ken may be wrong when he says that Buddhism never addressed growing up. The teaching of the ten fetters which must be overcome to attain Buddhahood clearly relate to the experience of growing up, the aspirant must have mastery over sensual lust, anger, conceit, world views, doubt, attachment to rites and rituals, lust for existence, jealousy, greed, and ignorance. The stages of growing up which Ken describes appear to be symptoms of a lack of mastery of these ten fetters, not the cause of them. Would welcome being corrected as I'm not massively familiar with Integral theory or buddhism for that matter.
The bodhisatva is the only awaken being that is not leaving this realm until ALL sentient beings get out of this samsara. If that is not being in the higher level of the growing up hierarchy, what is it?
In Buddhism, largely what is termed “awakening” proceeds by stages after the first liberative insight into the emptiness of ‘self’ as has been imputed upon the physical and psychological factors of form (ones own and those in ones environment), sensations, mental representations, formational activity, object-consciousness; this “first liberative insight” is usually equivalent of stream-winner (sotāpanna/srotāpanna) stage and marks entry to what is called the supramundane path (lokuttaramagga/lokottaramārga)). In the present video, Ken appears to apply the word “awakening” and similar to ‘peak’ (mūrdhan) insights of a type known in Vipassanā schools as “knowledge of arising and passing away” (udayabbaya-ñana), of which a person may experience many before entry to the supramundane path (cf: integrateddaniel.info/the-arising-and-passing-away/; www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/4-the-arising-and-passing-away/; Some testimonies: thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/if-this-is-indeed-a-p-congratulation.html). Perhaps less well-known though encountered is that Buddhist practice necessitates cleaning up vāsanā, ‘perfumes’ (sometimes described as the smell left in a bag that has carried fish:-), proclivities that remain, even after deeper stages of supramundane awakening (post-arhat), of past action including ways of thinking, and can include carry-overs from past lives. My thought is that where someone’s activities after a stage of supramundane awakening become focused on teaching, they may forget to “be enlightened by all things”, also their circumstances may insulate them from further chafing upon their thinking that accompanies being ‘no one special’ in the world at large. With continued willingness to be enlightened by all things, one may be surprised at subtle habitual and less subtle other notions in ones thinking that one becomes aware of over time that require unbinding. “Beginner’s mind” is not just for beginners.
This is an amazing conversation and I thank you whole heartedly for sharing it. My current situation which I am so thankful for allows me to study but I have to do it from free material I find! So thanks for sharing this talk! Questions; Can we honestly say there is such a thriving community we are aspiring to? Where is this community if it does indeed exist? Is it possible to create this growth of conscious awareness and to grow up without a deep innerstanding of diet? Diet seems to me to be missing in so many discussions I have been privy to. It does ultimately form the alchemy we take our energy to operate from, and then we act upon the thoughts we create. Jet planes do burn jet fuel i have heard! I love this idea of addressing the hold post modernity has had on the potential of having levels of hierarchy. How else are we to treat the individuals growth and ultimate ascension? It's seems strange to even have to point it out as nature is full of hierarchy yet we balk at the opportunity to grow symbiotically within our communities and societies learning from elders as just one example. Children do turn into teenagers, but to define what an adult is to me is not an easy task anymore! I think we are missing something incredibly powerful here? That is innerstanding the devastating effects of firstly not knowing how the lymphatic system works, and... how it effects each and everyone of us as past poor dietary choices manifested as so called 'disease' we find ourselves being convinced of by so called 'health professionals'! There is far too much convincing evidence and science showing us we have indeed been fed a smorgasbord of lies when it comes to diet, and...it's not that difficult to innerstand! How can a toxic mind reach these levels we all aspire to? Cleaning the body of it's acids and stagnant lymph should be a pillar in this approach to ascension as well, no? I think we take it for granted that people will figure this out for themselves in their natural progression. It took me years! I have read and listened to numerous accounts of people having to hit rock bottom or have a serious incident in their lives before they wake up to what is really going on...We have been lied to! Does the current quality of food we have access to and consume not have serious consequences on the individual? We put so much emphasis on drugs and alcohol and their negative effects yet we seem to forget that what is really responsible for so much suffering, the framework for the door, Alc/drugs eventually get their foot into, I include big pharma here as well...but it's what led us to the poor decision making in the first place and it also begins it's attack on our bodies at a young age and we are helpless to defend! This framework that supports the doors and windows to the house we call 'our bodies' is none other than... Food and access to clean water! Even the vegans are suffering from consuming too much cooked food as well as manufactured garbage. Proteins are also robbing the body of serious minerals such as calcium...We don't really get that living foods are full of life and anything else is dead or dying...so why do we eat so dam much of it? So I see this as basic entry into any community or 'living' anywhere anyhow for that matter! It has to be addressed or it's all for nothing! You can forget entry into those higher realms of existence if the body isn't clean! As an idea...we could move away from Allopathic medicine and Each individual would then take responsibility for their own health and would welcome it! They would realize the benefits of being assessed to see where they are at, at many different levels... and hopefully self assessment would become the norm and there would be support systems to help each individual reach optimum levels of health and ultimately conscious awareness would follow. We have until now been putting the cart before the horse! Consider this if you may; Those tasked with assessing would have gone through the process themselves, no exceptions here! There would be assessment of the assessors...ha ha! And it too would be welcomed! This isn't a private club where you can pay to play or religious sect where simply studying scripture and the occult gets you entry. If your not completely clean and able to admit it then why would you put yourself in a position of leadership! This higher states of awareness welcome change and analysis of self! So diet, and detoxing the body is a must, then breathing and meditation, exercise, time spent in nature as well as... open debate from researching the truth of our history and current events which in and of itself provides ample sources of dopamine could be a beginning point for us! it's just a beginning, as once a person reaches these higher levels the mind then ungrips from so many barriers to the unknown amazing possibilities! Then once a person knows within they have reached said cleanstate of being, we can consider shooting for the stars....Am I out of line here? But the hierarchy has to exist as communication between levels changes drastically...like consider how many people won't have read this far! The tower of Pisa is definitely leaning because it was built on a poor foundation of knowledge and support! It's not going to fix itself, so it has to come crashing down before it can be rebuilt, or we could be wise and begin it's deconstruction or deprogramming and get to those deep foundational stones and support them...then begin the reconstruction of the super human! It's levels of programming both in scope and depth one has had to endure that also has to be assessed. What were the conditions during this programming and what are they today? What was and is the diet that contributed to all the stagnant lymph, and what are the new protocols to support the new growth, then the milestones reached and new programs of healing introduced as the bodies cells open up and let the light in; Are there others that have reached higher levels and how is it measured and then maintained and then advanced? And are they then taking those leadership roles and being supported! I guess this would help anyone and it would assist the persons ability to accept what you are saying and live optimally!
I enjoyed this dialogue. Doshin seems to think that the way to save transformational communities is to get followers to be more obedient to leaders like him by making them study a part of integral theory. I suggest that when more leaders wake, grow, clean, and show up enough to integrate good morals and ethics into their activities that more people will support them.
For an in-depth analysis of each of these growing up stages (on RUclips), check out the spiral dynamics series on actualized. Amazing channel anyway but the series gives alot more substance to each of the stages these guys are talking about :)
That's so counter intuitive to see the waking up and growing up processes independent of each other. One would assume or associate waking up as encompassing superior values towards life. Maybe this explains alcoholic mystics. I read somewhere Alan Watts died of alcoholism.
I'm curious how generational cycles and reactions come into play. Not as blame but as aspects of the diagnosing how we got here to better understand what to not keep doing. And I say that because when I hear criticisms about post-modernism I suspect there's a lot connected to millennials being raised under more of a protected mono-culture and the hero archetype. It feels like millennials are being isolated as the problem and it feels like blame as opposed to diagnosis of how we got here.
There is nothing relating to Zen in what Wilber is talking about. Why these two are even in the same room baffles me. It's all mental stuff. Wilber is like a cup of tea overflowing with ideas, concepts. Where are the bones?
It seems to me that Ken Wilbur seems to be missing some obvious flaws in his theories. First and foremost, his theory of growing up seems to be following Hegel's assumption of constant progression. He mentions that Nazis are on a lower level of 'growing up' due to being ethnocentric, but fails to explain where International Communism fits on this scale. He does not seem to have read much of Jung and Neumann. I have a lot of respect for Doshin Roshi, but it seems clear that he has surpassed Wilbur. The second main point that Wilbur has missed is the atomisation of what Jungians call modern man. If so-called ethnocentrism is an earlier stage of 'growing up' then why is modern man undergoing an identity crisis?
@alliantdevil: "A rakusu is a traditional Japanese garment worn around the neck of Zen Buddhists who have taken the precepts. It can also signify Lay Ordination. It is made of 16 or more strips of cloth, sewn together into a brick-like pattern by the student during their period of preparation for their jukai or ordination ceremony."
I don't think that this integral thing and Ken Wilber is the most advanced Filosofi or concept, because i have been following integral spirituality for many years now and a have not find any or a single one in this context who is really liberated or totally FREE from all this concepts. If you are really liberated and free you will think that the highest is beyond everything. Beyond thoughts, feelings and perceptions. That's called what is before your birth and will be there when we die - the God natur before God or Para Brahman.
Intellectual constructs are another variation of the ideologies that Wilbur attacks. His summary around the 1:45 mark becomes the very diatribe of what he attacks. Mind over heart is another kind of arrogance.
Postmodernism is an expression of the communitarian Green MEME that has not reached the insights of the second tier Integral yellow MEME that calls for flexibility and appropriates wisdom from the earlier stages.
How is growth hierarchy elitist? That's like: Say those that go to the top of the mountain say there is a great view. They say, "Up here we can see more than you can down there" You say, "Bull, that's something an elitist would say" They say, "Look for yourself" You say, "No thanks" They say, "Dumbass"
the metaphor you have chosen (the mountain top metaphor) suggests immediately that you can see more than me...how can you be sure...imean lets make it real... compared to what?...les mcann and eddie harris.... to understand is to stand under...lao tsu
It's amazing to me that this has only 6000 views. Wilber has been cutting a philosophical path for the rest of us to walk along. I am eternally grateful. This man is a genius.
Thanks for being the 6001st viewer ;)
Bahahaha he is an Idea thief. Not a single one of his is original or independently discovered. He has basically bastardised Jean Gebser as well as others like Spiral Dynamics. He is a crock
You must have never heard of a 'meta' theory. Nor had I before Wilber. A 'meta' theory is a theory of theories. What makes integral meta theory unique, is precisely that it DOES call upon all of these wonderful ideas in order to outline a clearer vertical nature to growth hierarchies. Simultaneously, it creates a horizontal dimensionality using AQAL. This provides a space or a field to look at anything; a person, place, thought, with a level of granularity unparalleled so far. No one has done this.
On top of this, if you've read some of his books, he elucidates some of the higher 'spiritual' territories of individual states and stages in a clear and methodical way, pulling from the greatest traditions the dankest of the dank meat. No need to go to Tibet and study Dzogchen for the rest of your life in order to find their secrets. They are laid out in his books, and there are many approaches to get to these high peaks (Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, secular). Wilber essentially cleans up spirituality, which is an extremely confusing space.
The combination of the vertical and horizontal spaces leaves one with a 3D field to evaluate any phenomenon, including oneself, a collective, a company, or government.
Gebser and Graves give beautiful 2D hierarchical models. However Wilber goes beyond even beyond them in their vertical findings, by exploring the mysterious 3rd tier, the causal realm, not outlined in Spiral Dynamics, or by Gebser, but known by the Mystics and the greatest of traditions.
The model also recognizes multiple intelligences (lines), as well kinds of personalities (types).
Wilber is as cutting edge as it gets, he IS the cutting edge.
I recommend reading his book, "The Religion of Tomorrow" if you want to learn more.
Wilber is an overlooked genius, a man that will, in the future, be recognized as one.
Those that use his theory, will accelerate their business, spirituality, creativity, whatever... in a manner that will inevitably attract the attention of those who don't.
@@Ghanzo > Wilber is as cutting edge as it gets, he IS the cutting edge.
Yes.
The mind delights in the weaving of intellectual meta-constructs; so seducing. But I think something is forgotten in the tower of thought.
Love
Mom
Anyone who can articulate modern growth challenges for those who are listening: essential.
Doshin Roshi's attitude to life genuinely energises my soul. And I have a lot of time for what Ken Wilber has to say. But I have a problem.
There appears to be a naivety about the dark forces that operate in this world. Doshin Roshi would doubtless say that we have to first recognise and work on the darkness within us. That the problems of the world are in essence the problems that are within ourselves. This is all well and good and has much truth in it.
But we all know where this ends: it ends in Buddhist monks self-immolating because they ultimately have no response to the dark forces that have dominion over this realm. It ends in literally millions of lives being prematurely extinguished by those in pursuit of their own ego-driven agendas.
I have spent many years of my life working 'in the dirt' to bring clarity to many people who previously had thought the situation either hopeless or were simply previously unaware of the terrible reality of who really rules this plane. I make absolutely no claims for myself - it has been an enormous team effort to bring things to the point where the majority view is finally one of righteous distrust of governments and self-serving authorities.
There has to be two kinds of work operating in parallel: work on oneself for sure. But also work on the world and the forces that control it. This, I sincerely believe, is our true mission.
thanks for pointing that out...it is something I have felt as well. It's so confusing at times...the dark machine forces...is it all just a hologram we manifest from our thoughts? I really don't think so...is it our mirror...I have asked that so many times. Can it just be levels of programming each one will have to deal with in this or other lives if in deed there are others to live...It's all part of the mystery I guess.
I still have to watch this video....but can appreciate what you are saying...I am familiar with these questions as they have to be dealt with in all modalities but are mostly ignored.
I agree. It was the first thing that crossed my mind. Obviously we are in the crowning Covid times, so more apparent, the healthy hierarchy is so over shadowed and suppressed by the tyrannical hierarchy and suppression or the lower tier, amplified and manipulated by the post modern ideology. It’s a good over view, but no meat on it. Doshin is a bit more social present.
Jung's Shadow. Doshin is talking about this. It is fixing society and the "big evils" at the same time as the self. The two are not separate.
As we clean our rooms, metaphorically and in reality, then we create true righteousness. When you have that, then the idea is that becomes a growth heirarchy. Conflict of some form is inevitable. But really it is the conflict between ideas, and of course ideology, that drives everything. The right idea. The truly righteous one, should be strong enough where it will defeat all inferior ones. And that defeat can be in the form of integration, and not annihilation.
I think Musashi Miyamoto distilled this very succinctly "for in the void is virtue, and no evil, wisdom has existence, principle has existence......" Etc etc. Ultimately this is what integral theory is getting at.
It's no coincidence that Doshin is Rinzai School. Samurai Zen.... As was Musashi.
It's very logical to take integral theory into Zen that way. Add his knowledge of Jung into it, and it all makes sense.
Doshin was already practicing integral theory before he was aware of it as something. At least on some level.
Thank you....This is amazing...universal loving intelligence...true thankfulness Kay La
loving this video... .tyvm. :) I'm listening to Ken, and I am thinking of the importance of discernment. While not desiring to support anything I view as truly damaging, I still love the individual and hold them in my heart/mind. I will never remain silent in the face of behaviors that I view as detrimental to spirit and safety of others. ;) Time to get off the cushion, for sure. ;) I think.
I have a new five year plan! Thank you both
I'm not a Buddhist but I think Ken may be wrong when he says that Buddhism never addressed growing up. The teaching of the ten fetters which must be overcome to attain Buddhahood clearly relate to the experience of growing up, the aspirant must have mastery over sensual lust, anger, conceit, world views, doubt, attachment to rites and rituals, lust for existence, jealousy, greed, and ignorance. The stages of growing up which Ken describes appear to be symptoms of a lack of mastery of these ten fetters, not the cause of them. Would welcome being corrected as I'm not massively familiar with Integral theory or buddhism for that matter.
The bodhisatva is the only awaken being that is not leaving this realm until ALL sentient beings get out of this samsara. If that is not being in the higher level of the growing up hierarchy, what is it?
His definition of “growing up” is not the vernacular
That's not what Ken meant by stages or growing up. You can master the 10 fetters and still be stuck at Amber.
Somehow I love Ken's voice as he reminds me of Master Yoda. :D
Udyusuodudw
And dressed like Yoda too in this video.🤭
Oh, we humans just love to make everything so complicated. Such fun.
Fantastic
In Buddhism, largely what is termed “awakening” proceeds by stages after the first liberative insight into the emptiness of ‘self’ as has been imputed upon the physical and psychological factors of form (ones own and those in ones environment), sensations, mental representations, formational activity, object-consciousness; this “first liberative insight” is usually equivalent of stream-winner (sotāpanna/srotāpanna) stage and marks entry to what is called the supramundane path (lokuttaramagga/lokottaramārga)). In the present video, Ken appears to apply the word “awakening” and similar to ‘peak’ (mūrdhan) insights of a type known in Vipassanā schools as “knowledge of arising and passing away” (udayabbaya-ñana), of which a person may experience many before entry to the supramundane path (cf: integrateddaniel.info/the-arising-and-passing-away/; www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/4-the-arising-and-passing-away/; Some testimonies: thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/if-this-is-indeed-a-p-congratulation.html).
Perhaps less well-known though encountered is that Buddhist practice necessitates cleaning up vāsanā, ‘perfumes’ (sometimes described as the smell left in a bag that has carried fish:-), proclivities that remain, even after deeper stages of supramundane awakening (post-arhat), of past action including ways of thinking, and can include carry-overs from past lives. My thought is that where someone’s activities after a stage of supramundane awakening become focused on teaching, they may forget to “be enlightened by all things”, also their circumstances may insulate them from further chafing upon their thinking that accompanies being ‘no one special’ in the world at large. With continued willingness to be enlightened by all things, one may be surprised at subtle habitual and less subtle other notions in ones thinking that one becomes aware of over time that require unbinding. “Beginner’s mind” is not just for beginners.
Unreal! I am devouring and assimaling every single word... Do you want the key to unlock your doors? THIS IS IT!!!
Nameste ALL, MARK LEWIS
no... no is it... the key is something in Krishnamurti way...
This is an amazing conversation and I thank you whole heartedly for sharing it. My current situation which I am so thankful for allows me to study but I have to do it from free material I find! So thanks for sharing this talk!
Questions; Can we honestly say there is such a thriving community we are aspiring to? Where is this community if it does indeed exist? Is it possible to create this growth of conscious awareness and to grow up without a deep innerstanding of diet?
Diet seems to me to be missing in so many discussions I have been privy to. It does ultimately form the alchemy we take our energy to operate from, and then we act upon the thoughts we create. Jet planes do burn jet fuel i have heard!
I love this idea of addressing the hold post modernity has had on the potential of having levels of hierarchy. How else are we to treat the individuals growth and ultimate ascension? It's seems strange to even have to point it out as nature is full of hierarchy yet we balk at the opportunity to grow symbiotically within our communities and societies learning from elders as just one example. Children do turn into teenagers, but to define what an adult is to me is not an easy task anymore!
I think we are missing something incredibly powerful here? That is innerstanding the devastating effects of firstly not knowing how the lymphatic system works, and... how it effects each and everyone of us as past poor dietary choices manifested as so called 'disease' we find ourselves being convinced of by so called 'health professionals'! There is far too much convincing evidence and science showing us we have indeed been fed a smorgasbord of lies when it comes to diet, and...it's not that difficult to innerstand! How can a toxic mind reach these levels we all aspire to?
Cleaning the body of it's acids and stagnant lymph should be a pillar in this approach to ascension as well, no? I think we take it for granted that people will figure this out for themselves in their natural progression. It took me years! I have read and listened to numerous accounts of people having to hit rock bottom or have a serious incident in their lives before they wake up to what is really going on...We have been lied to!
Does the current quality of food we have access to and consume not have serious consequences on the individual? We put so much emphasis on drugs and alcohol and their negative effects yet we seem to forget that what is really responsible for so much suffering, the framework for the door, Alc/drugs eventually get their foot into, I include big pharma here as well...but it's what led us to the poor decision making in the first place and it also begins it's attack on our bodies at a young age and we are helpless to defend! This framework that supports the doors and windows to the house we call 'our bodies' is none other than... Food and access to clean water! Even the vegans are suffering from consuming too much cooked food as well as manufactured garbage. Proteins are also robbing the body of serious minerals such as calcium...We don't really get that living foods are full of life and anything else is dead or dying...so why do we eat so dam much of it?
So I see this as basic entry into any community or 'living' anywhere anyhow for that matter! It has to be addressed or it's all for nothing! You can forget entry into those higher realms of existence if the body isn't clean!
As an idea...we could move away from Allopathic medicine and Each individual would then take responsibility for their own health and would welcome it! They would realize the benefits of being assessed to see where they are at, at many different levels... and hopefully self assessment would become the norm and there would be support systems to help each individual reach optimum levels of health and ultimately conscious awareness would follow. We have until now been putting the cart before the horse!
Consider this if you may;
Those tasked with assessing would have gone through the process themselves, no exceptions here! There would be assessment of the assessors...ha ha! And it too would be welcomed! This isn't a private club where you can pay to play or religious sect where simply studying scripture and the occult gets you entry. If your not completely clean and able to admit it then why would you put yourself in a position of leadership! This higher states of awareness welcome change and analysis of self!
So diet, and detoxing the body is a must, then breathing and meditation, exercise, time spent in nature as well as... open debate from researching the truth of our history and current events which in and of itself provides ample sources of dopamine could be a beginning point for us! it's just a beginning, as once a person reaches these higher levels the mind then ungrips from so many barriers to the unknown amazing possibilities! Then once a person knows within they have reached said cleanstate of being, we can consider shooting for the stars....Am I out of line here? But the hierarchy has to exist as communication between levels changes drastically...like consider how many people won't have read this far!
The tower of Pisa is definitely leaning because it was built on a poor foundation of knowledge and support! It's not going to fix itself, so it has to come crashing down before it can be rebuilt, or we could be wise and begin it's deconstruction or deprogramming and get to those deep foundational stones and support them...then begin the reconstruction of the super human!
It's levels of programming both in scope and depth one has had to endure that also has to be assessed. What were the conditions during this programming and what are they today? What was and is the diet that contributed to all the stagnant lymph, and what are the new protocols to support the new growth, then the milestones reached and new programs of healing introduced as the bodies cells open up and let the light in; Are there others that have reached higher levels and how is it measured and then maintained and then advanced? And are they then taking those leadership roles and being supported!
I guess this would help anyone and it would assist the persons ability to accept what you are saying and live optimally!
agreed, getting 'clean' must include dietary considerations
I enjoyed this dialogue. Doshin seems to think that the way to save transformational communities is to get followers to be more obedient to leaders like him by making them study a part of integral theory. I suggest that when more leaders wake, grow, clean, and show up enough to integrate good morals and ethics into their activities that more people will support them.
🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
For an in-depth analysis of each of these growing up stages (on RUclips), check out the spiral dynamics series on actualized. Amazing channel anyway but the series gives alot more substance to each of the stages these guys are talking about :)
What you say is good. You know what you are talking about.
That's so counter intuitive to see the waking up and growing up processes independent of each other. One would assume or associate waking up as encompassing superior values towards life. Maybe this explains alcoholic mystics. I read somewhere Alan Watts died of alcoholism.
Be Nice to Everybody All the Time... Paradoxically Complicated Simplicity.
It helps to think it is not the end of the world.
I'm curious how generational cycles and reactions come into play. Not as blame but as aspects of the diagnosing how we got here to better understand what to not keep doing. And I say that because when I hear criticisms about post-modernism I suspect there's a lot connected to millennials being raised under more of a protected mono-culture and the hero archetype. It feels like millennials are being isolated as the problem and it feels like blame as opposed to diagnosis of how we got here.
Doshi I would love to meet you
This is interesting.
There is nothing relating to Zen in what Wilber is talking about. Why these two are even in the same room baffles me. It's all mental stuff. Wilber is like a cup of tea overflowing with ideas, concepts. Where are the bones?
Doshin kilde I would love to meet you.
It seems to me that Ken Wilbur seems to be missing some obvious flaws in his theories. First and foremost, his theory of growing up seems to be following Hegel's assumption of constant progression. He mentions that Nazis are on a lower level of 'growing up' due to being ethnocentric, but fails to explain where International Communism fits on this scale.
He does not seem to have read much of Jung and Neumann. I have a lot of respect for Doshin Roshi, but it seems clear that he has surpassed Wilbur.
The second main point that Wilbur has missed is the atomisation of what Jungians call modern man. If so-called ethnocentrism is an earlier stage of 'growing up' then why is modern man undergoing an identity crisis?
I agree entirely.Wilber is missing something essential.
He does seem to have a bit of a blind spot, doesn't he?
We need to meet each other
Don't believe in the end of the world. There is a way out. We can get through in saving the world.
Not related to the content of the talk and not meant as a pejorative, what is that apron type thing Doshin Roshi is wearing?
rakusu: signifies taking precepts
@alliantdevil: "A rakusu is a traditional Japanese garment worn around the neck of Zen Buddhists who have taken the precepts. It can also signify Lay Ordination. It is made of 16 or more strips of cloth, sewn together into a brick-like pattern by the student during their period of preparation for their jukai or ordination ceremony."
Warning. Go back up. Don't read the comments before watching the video. Thank me later.
I don't think that this integral thing and Ken Wilber is the most advanced Filosofi or concept, because i have been following integral spirituality for many years now and a have not find any or a single one in this context who is really liberated or totally FREE from all this concepts. If you are really liberated and free you will think that the highest is beyond everything. Beyond thoughts, feelings and perceptions. That's called what is before your birth and will be there when we die - the God natur before God or Para Brahman.
How can one tel if someone is liberated?There is nothing to integrate and nothing to integrate it to .
relax... live long ..... and obey the law..........
of gravity
Doshi doshi
Intellectual constructs are another variation of the ideologies that Wilbur attacks. His summary around the 1:45 mark becomes the very diatribe of what he attacks. Mind over heart is another kind of arrogance.
Doshi roshin
Doshi ro
so, postmodernity is growth hierarchy elitism?
Postmodernism is an expression of the communitarian Green MEME that has not reached the insights of the second tier Integral yellow MEME that calls for flexibility and appropriates wisdom from the earlier stages.
ah, the great MEME is multicolored, and the memeMEME is an aspect of the greater, yes?
When you require a unique language to explain this than I would say CULT
How is growth hierarchy elitist?
That's like:
Say those that go to the top of the mountain say there is a great view.
They say, "Up here we can see more than you can down there"
You say, "Bull, that's something an elitist would say"
They say, "Look for yourself"
You say, "No thanks"
They say, "Dumbass"
the metaphor you have chosen (the mountain top metaphor) suggests immediately that you can see more than me...how can you be sure...imean lets make it real... compared to what?...les mcann and eddie harris.... to understand is to stand under...lao tsu