A typical high power rifle ( i.e. 308 win 150gr ) moves between 1/4 to 1/2 inch before the bullet leaves the barrel. The nature and repeatability of that motion has a profound effect on accuracy. To shoot competitively from an unsupported position requires a lot of training. Frame must be consistent and maximized. Muscle tension where required must be constant and consistent. The problem can be mitigated in two ways by the design of the rifle. Reduce the recoil ( generally by reducing ballistic performance) or increasing weight with an eye towards increasing the moment of inertia. Most hunters I know are very poor shots when trying to shoot from an unsupported position. Often this is a function of the recoil energy to weight ratio of their rifle. Mostly its because they have no idea how to build a position. Another problem related to the energy to weight is the sheer number of no flinch practice shots needed to create the reflex arcs necessary to allow the shot to break as the sights perfecly align. Not an easy thing to do with a 7.5 pound 300 win mag firing typical hunting load.
What I’ve found with light rifles is inconsistent POI depending on rifle support methods. Heavier rifles are easier to shoot because in general they have a more stable POI
9:04 I FEEL ATTACKED but no it was at this moment that I realized I could actually have so little recoil that my target could stay in focus after a shot?
Ok maybe I missed it but whats considered "light" and whats "heavy" For example I have 2 rifles for hunting that are scoped 1 308 2020 waypoint scoped with a sling and loaded mag im coming in right at 9lb 8oz is this light? Heavy? Or good compromise? Have a 300wm thats just a plain jane sporter barrel smaller scope but total package weight right at 8lbs 9oz...personally I dont care to shoot this one more needed lol
SOLUTION: If you want that 7 to 8 pound hunting rifle to feel really light, Start working out with 10, 15, 20 lb Dumbells or heavier if you like. Do curls, and Reverse cures for your Forearm Strength. To Dumbell Flys, for your Shoulders. I could, one handed move that deer rifle around with Authority, like it was nothing. You don't have to go all BALBOA..., But do this A few Months before the Season.
Why does everyone base their initial comparison on caliber to the 6.5 Creedmore. I’m a hunter that will never take a shot at an animal over 400 yards. I would be willing to say that’s the same for a high percentage of hunters. From a hunting standpoint I don’t find much of any advantage that is offered by the 6.5 Creedmore. I’m sure bench shooters and extreme long range shooters may have their reasons but I see many calibers that are far better suited for the normal shooter in normal scenarios. I guess my question is why all the hype. I don’t really like the numbers I see when I look at the 6.5 .
@@jhamelin119 That knockdown power and isn't a thing you deliver to the target. It is a product of recoil to the shooter and is of no benefit to anyone.
@@SurmaSampo depends on which end of the barrel your on there partner, The shooter would say the 458 win mags recoil knocked him down when he pulled the trigger The prarie dog would say the bullet possesed huge knockdown power from the cartridge. Duh
All the scope technology and Apps in the world will not give you the wind data between you and the target in a real world long range hunting situation. You may be able to see some movement in the grass or trees and some close mirage but until you gut shoot or do a texas heart shot on an animal you will never see your folly. Happened to a buddy last year and he is giving up on playing sniper in the woods on game animals.
@@ronws2007 sounds like he gave up on long range hunting, not hunting. You owe it to the animal to make as guaranteed a shot as you can--not stretching the limit for the sake of fun. Taking pot shots at living creatures from a 1000 yards away just for kicks, giggles, and bragging rights isn't true to the hunter ethos, in my opinion.
@@christopherrowley7506 I thought I had replied to you but evidently, not. Anyway, after some time to think about it, I think you are right. However, if a person can make a long range shot and it is worth it for the goal, sure. That also depends on how one defines long range. Some have said that it is any distance past 300 yards and I tend to agree. I love my .308 Win rifles and my favorite is my TC Compass II .308 Win that I have put into an Oryx chassis. Federal Fusion 165 grain is giving me .5 MOA in the original factory synthetic stock. I think the Oryx can get me down to 1/3 MOA. I have shot as small as 1/4 MOA. And the 165 grain is showing 1173 ft-lbs at 500 yards. So, it is a 500 yard round. Longest I have ranged on the public hunting land I use is 238 yards and very doable if I aim for the Vital V. Most of my other shots in that area, with the thick forests, is about 71 yards. And that is the extent of what I would hunt. However, in the western part of my state, there is a state lottery draw for a hunt for mule deer and the state literature for that hunt shows that you will get a compartment. Expect to hike in snow and ice. And expect shots at 200 yards or so, It is the Cap Rock Canyon and there is not a lot of trees to hide behind and mulies are skiddish. I think it is wise to not shoot past the distance you can adequately handle. Are we saying that you can never, ever shoot past 500 yards at game? I have read Big Game Hunting by Elmer Keith. He believed in hunting close up in the wooded areas of Wisconsin and other places and usually shot a .333 OKH or .35 Whelen. And could still get rump shots. It happens, and that is what my initial response was coming from. In fact, Keith did not much like rifles like the .30-06 and .270/ He preferred the straight walls with expanding bullets. But he still got a rump shot, once in a while. The proper thing to do, if possible, is follow up with a better shot. But I think any hunter is going to sometimes accidently make a non-lethal shot. And I think it should be a learning experience.
In a Gun store pick up a light weight rifle look at something and you will notice it wiggling around pick up a Varmint rifle with heavy bull barrel and it is steady in the hand. Perfect weight Remington 700 BDL short action. IMHO Long Action 700 BDL is perfect for. Larger Calibers for hunting out west.
733 yards at an elk? Come on guys! Seriously? Nothing like promoting hunting ethics. If someone can't get within 400 yards maybe you should be shooting silhouette not animals. I don't care if you can make that shot, any shouldered cartridge, minus the .50 BMG, hasn't got a great deal of energy at 700 damn yards. Shooting at animals that far away is a real douche move
While I certainly don’t support shooting at animals at that distance, there’s plenty of cartridges that have the energy needed to ethically kill at that range. The 300 weatherby retains the necessary energy to kill a big game animal out to around 1100 yards
@@danielboggan2479 yeah there's plenty of energy in those magnum rounds. But I do take moral issue to taking pot shots at animals from 1000 yards. The motivation is one of two things: either (1) to make hunting easier, or (2) for the giggles and bragging rights. Number 1. Everyone else does just fine at 400 yards and in, so can you: just move closer. Plenty of western game animals are taken every year with a bow at 30 yards. Most reasonable rifle cartridge choices will take animals out to 400 yards, why do you want more of an advantage than that? And for number 2. Hunting isn't just about filling the freezer (I doubt he did that out of state moose hunt to just fill the freezer), it's about more than that---there is a Hunter Ethos that we should live up to. It's about respect for the animal, respect for the land and the elements, and respect for the circle of life. Plinking at a living creature from a kilometer away for nothing but bragging rights doesn't show much respect, in my opinion.
@@christopherrowley7506 red read my comment, I made it clear I’m not in favor of doing that. I’ve never took a shot at anything over 500 yards myself even in just target practice. I’ve never shot at an animal past 200 yards myself, and I don’t think I’ll ever try one past 350.
@@danielboggan2479 I guess I wasn't clear in my comment--I was agreeing with you, not trying to call you out. I was just expanding on the idea that while there may be enough energy to kill an animal still doesn't mean it's ethical
@@christopherrowley7506yes, get closer when you have 20 minutes to cover extreme terrain for 300-500 yards up and down rocky cliffs and other impossible natural obstacles. Sometimes it's needed to shoot more than 400 yards and gun companies have created cartridges and bullets that will do what they need to. The gun is definitely capable of killing a animal from 500-800 yards, wether you are is the correct question to ask.
A typical high power rifle ( i.e. 308 win 150gr ) moves between 1/4 to 1/2 inch before the bullet leaves the barrel. The nature and repeatability of that motion has a profound effect on accuracy.
To shoot competitively from an unsupported position requires a lot of training. Frame must be consistent and maximized. Muscle tension where required must be constant and consistent. The problem can be mitigated in two ways by the design of the rifle. Reduce the recoil ( generally by reducing ballistic performance) or increasing weight with an eye towards increasing the moment of inertia.
Most hunters I know are very poor shots when trying to shoot from an unsupported position. Often this is a function of the recoil energy to weight ratio of their rifle. Mostly its because they have no idea how to build a position. Another problem related to the energy to weight is the sheer number of no flinch practice shots needed to create the reflex arcs necessary to allow the shot to break as the sights perfecly align. Not an easy thing to do with a 7.5 pound 300 win mag firing typical hunting load.
1/2” lol
What I’ve found with light rifles is inconsistent POI depending on rifle support methods. Heavier rifles are easier to shoot because in general they have a more stable POI
9:04
I FEEL ATTACKED
but no it was at this moment that I realized I could actually have so little recoil that my target could stay in focus after a shot?
Ok maybe I missed it but whats considered "light" and whats "heavy"
For example I have 2 rifles for hunting that are scoped
1 308 2020 waypoint scoped with a sling and loaded mag im coming in right at 9lb 8oz is this light? Heavy? Or good compromise?
Have a 300wm thats just a plain jane sporter barrel smaller scope but total package weight right at 8lbs 9oz...personally I dont care to shoot this one more needed lol
SOLUTION: If you want that 7 to 8 pound hunting rifle to feel really light, Start working out with 10, 15, 20 lb Dumbells or heavier if you like. Do curls, and Reverse cures for your Forearm Strength. To Dumbell Flys, for your Shoulders. I could, one handed move that deer rifle around with Authority, like it was nothing. You don't have to go all BALBOA..., But do this A few Months before the Season.
Apparently that’s too much to ask from people.
@HotepSaoirse Then you and I will be the Balboa Tough Hunters lol.
That snappy recoil impulse just makes for un-pleasant shooting. I like a little bit of weight to the rifle, just over 3kg, maybe 3,5kg
Ditto, heavier is usually better.
I cant shoot a light weight rifle to save my ass I've always shot my best with heavy like a boat anchor type of rifles
Why does everyone base their initial comparison on caliber to the 6.5 Creedmore. I’m a hunter that will never take a shot at an animal over 400 yards. I would be willing to say that’s the same for a high percentage of hunters. From a hunting standpoint I don’t find much of any advantage that is offered by the 6.5 Creedmore. I’m sure bench shooters and extreme long range shooters may have their reasons but I see many calibers that are far better suited for the normal shooter in normal scenarios. I guess my question is why all the hype. I don’t really like the numbers I see when I look at the 6.5 .
ill bet ya that a 3006 has better knockdown power than a 6.5mm.
@@jhamelin119 So does a 55 boys or a 10 gauge shotgun or a 2 bore stopping rifle. All of these are more likely to knock down the shooter from recoil.
@@SurmaSampo and your point is what
@@jhamelin119 That knockdown power and isn't a thing you deliver to the target. It is a product of recoil to the shooter and is of no benefit to anyone.
@@SurmaSampo depends on which end of the barrel your on there partner,
The shooter would say the 458 win mags recoil knocked him down when he pulled the trigger
The prarie dog would say the bullet possesed huge knockdown power from the cartridge.
Duh
223 WSSM
All the scope technology and Apps in the world will not give you the wind data between you and the target in a real world long range hunting situation. You may be able to see some movement in the grass or trees and some close mirage but until you gut shoot or do a texas heart shot on an animal you will never see your folly. Happened to a buddy last year and he is giving up on playing sniper in the woods on game animals.
He is giving up on hunting because he rump shot a deer? One time? Wow.
@@ronws2007 sounds like he gave up on long range hunting, not hunting. You owe it to the animal to make as guaranteed a shot as you can--not stretching the limit for the sake of fun. Taking pot shots at living creatures from a 1000 yards away just for kicks, giggles, and bragging rights isn't true to the hunter ethos, in my opinion.
@@christopherrowley7506 I thought I had replied to you but evidently, not. Anyway, after some time to think about it, I think you are right. However, if a person can make a long range shot and it is worth it for the goal, sure. That also depends on how one defines long range. Some have said that it is any distance past 300 yards and I tend to agree.
I love my .308 Win rifles and my favorite is my TC Compass II .308 Win that I have put into an Oryx chassis. Federal Fusion 165 grain is giving me .5 MOA in the original factory synthetic stock. I think the Oryx can get me down to 1/3 MOA. I have shot as small as 1/4 MOA. And the 165 grain is showing 1173 ft-lbs at 500 yards. So, it is a 500 yard round. Longest I have ranged on the public hunting land I use is 238 yards and very doable if I aim for the Vital V. Most of my other shots in that area, with the thick forests, is about 71 yards. And that is the extent of what I would hunt.
However, in the western part of my state, there is a state lottery draw for a hunt for mule deer and the state literature for that hunt shows that you will get a compartment. Expect to hike in snow and ice. And expect shots at 200 yards or so, It is the Cap Rock Canyon and there is not a lot of trees to hide behind and mulies are skiddish.
I think it is wise to not shoot past the distance you can adequately handle. Are we saying that you can never, ever shoot past 500 yards at game?
I have read Big Game Hunting by Elmer Keith. He believed in hunting close up in the wooded areas of Wisconsin and other places and usually shot a .333 OKH or .35
Whelen. And could still get rump shots. It happens, and that is what my initial response was coming from. In fact, Keith did not much like rifles like the .30-06 and .270/ He preferred the straight walls with expanding bullets. But he still got a rump shot, once in a while. The proper thing to do, if possible, is follow up with a better shot.
But I think any hunter is going to sometimes accidently make a non-lethal shot. And I think it should be a learning experience.
In a Gun store pick up a light weight rifle look at something and you will notice it wiggling around pick up a Varmint rifle with heavy bull barrel and it is steady in the hand. Perfect weight Remington 700 BDL short action. IMHO Long Action 700 BDL is perfect for. Larger Calibers for hunting out west.
Pintle mount
733 yards at an elk? Come on guys! Seriously? Nothing like promoting hunting ethics. If someone can't get within 400 yards maybe you should be shooting silhouette not animals. I don't care if you can make that shot, any shouldered cartridge, minus the .50 BMG, hasn't got a great deal of energy at 700 damn yards. Shooting at animals that far away is a real douche move
While I certainly don’t support shooting at animals at that distance, there’s plenty of cartridges that have the energy needed to ethically kill at that range.
The 300 weatherby retains the necessary energy to kill a big game animal out to around 1100 yards
@@danielboggan2479 yeah there's plenty of energy in those magnum rounds. But I do take moral issue to taking pot shots at animals from 1000 yards. The motivation is one of two things: either (1) to make hunting easier, or (2) for the giggles and bragging rights. Number 1. Everyone else does just fine at 400 yards and in, so can you: just move closer. Plenty of western game animals are taken every year with a bow at 30 yards. Most reasonable rifle cartridge choices will take animals out to 400 yards, why do you want more of an advantage than that? And for number 2. Hunting isn't just about filling the freezer (I doubt he did that out of state moose hunt to just fill the freezer), it's about more than that---there is a Hunter Ethos that we should live up to. It's about respect for the animal, respect for the land and the elements, and respect for the circle of life. Plinking at a living creature from a kilometer away for nothing but bragging rights doesn't show much respect, in my opinion.
@@christopherrowley7506 red read my comment, I made it clear I’m not in favor of doing that. I’ve never took a shot at anything over 500 yards myself even in just target practice. I’ve never shot at an animal past 200 yards myself, and I don’t think I’ll ever try one past 350.
@@danielboggan2479 I guess I wasn't clear in my comment--I was agreeing with you, not trying to call you out. I was just expanding on the idea that while there may be enough energy to kill an animal still doesn't mean it's ethical
@@christopherrowley7506yes, get closer when you have 20 minutes to cover extreme terrain for 300-500 yards up and down rocky cliffs and other impossible natural obstacles. Sometimes it's needed to shoot more than 400 yards and gun companies have created cartridges and bullets that will do what they need to. The gun is definitely capable of killing a animal from 500-800 yards, wether you are is the correct question to ask.
Walking 60 miles ?? Gtfoh,,,,,, up hill both ways dark for 24 hours,,,