What am awesome video you put together. The way you cut it together really helps sum up the rambling I sometimes find myself doing. I love seeing hunters talking about topics that impact us and the comments on this video are all so constructive! If you ever want to talk again let me know, or if you're in the area stop by and we'll test out some bows and x-bows against the deer drop simulator.
I'm not going to read all the comments, however if you shoot a deer when it's head is down feeding it stands a much better chance of ducking your arrow than it does if it's head is up. If the head is down and it's feeding it can use the weight of its head as a counterbalance to lower its body more quickly than if it's head was up. Just something to consider. Be well keep making your videos I enjoy them immensely.
Interesting theory. Any evidence to support it? I always figured a feeding deer is a better target because it is probably more relaxed than one standing an alert.
@@jeffsalsieder640 No. I've seen it expressed several times on videos. I did watch one video that was about a scientific as one could be with "Ducking" the arrow, it certainly not something that can be done in the lab. However... The logic does makes sense to me. If you had to just duck as fast as you could that's one thing, but imagine if you had a rope attached to the ground and someone told you to duck and you could pull on that rope you could do it faster.
I'll confirm this theory with my own personal experience after hours of reviewing camera footage. I missed a deer last year high (shoulder blades) because he was able to duck it. You can watch the path of the arrow and at the last second he ducks just enough. Previous year I killed a buck with a lung shot, just above heart, while his head was up. This is counterintuitive to what we think will happen. If the head is up in alert we think they will be more likely to pounce, although true, I think they are even more alert, poised to duck and bolt while their head is down. I agree with Crockett.
Aim low anticipating that "startle" the deer has at the sudden sound. Watch deer in a thunderstorm or windstorm when branches are cracking and falling. They have that same initial startled reaction...loading the legs to flee, but uncertain if they need to flee or where to head when they do in that initial half second after release.
Solid The trouble is The animals get a vote after you shoot. And some animals are hyped up Some aren’t - rutting buck will be out of his mind. Late season doe on a calm day - haha - ninja! The amount and direction of the jump is completely unpredictable. They’ve been avoiding dying 24/7 - 365 their whole lives.
Good point for sure, some hyped up, some not! Does in PA are on alert and stare at the blind, spot movement in treestands, you name it. But when I see suburban deer in Maryland in the early season they couldn't care less, practically wave at passing cars LOL. And yeah, rutting bucks are on a mission...Bunjie is not their chief concern. 😄
You mean the deer doesn’t stand still like a 3D target? Please, say it isn’t so. Once I quit worrying about speed and changed my aiming point my success rate went way up. Aiming farther forward than what most think is ideal and at the lower 1/3 is where it’s at. Let’s not forget to beef up the arrow system and use sharp real broadheads too. It makes a huge difference.
I love your analysis on subjects for consideration, this one is most excellent data. With a fast crossbow I generally lean toward more arrow speed with less arrow arc path and an expandable like swhacker, they truly fly like a field point for me, many many deer down, if that stops working for me or I'm hunting something requiring a heavier arrow/fixed blade, I will adjust accordingly. When I was younger I would try to defeat every argument against what I was doing that was actually working for me, hybrid heads, heavy arrows etc.etc., it did not work for me, if it's not broke don't fix it. Flat trajectory, less reaction time, major wound channel, deer are not that hard to shoot through, hitting the shoulder blade has not been a problem at all. Thank you sir, great channel. Bill Liggett
When I was on a sensor planting mission and long range reconnaissance patrol, way back in the late 70’s, we always depended on becoming a part of the ambience of nature. We listened like animals listen, as you described. We even learned to use our sense of smell. I’m a much better hunter because of my military experiences from over 42 years ago.
Can shoot a lot of deer from a covered fighting position. Your scent drops in the hole. Any grunt knows deer don't sense you when you're standing armpit deep in a hole. Add a propane heater for keeping arthritic joints and grandkids toasty warm and dry if it's nasty out.
@ I love your channel and I really enjoy your videos. They are extremely well produced and very educational for us crossbow hunters. I've been a crossbow hunter for over 20 years now. Due to a very bad injury I had to hang up traditional and compound bow hunting. Some time has passed since you've dropped this video. I purchased a Ten-Point RS 440 Havoc a year and a half ago. That bow has been chronographed at 420 ft per second. I downed 2 deer last bow season with it. The first was at 57 yards and the second deer was at 64 yards. This year I picked up the new Nitro 505 from Ten-Point and I killed a doe yesterday at 63 yards. I live in Ohio and I'm literally 5 minutes away from Ten-Point headquarters and The Hunter's Outlet. That's basically a sister company that sells all of Ten-Points products. They also have an indoor range that's open to the public, and it's also where all the products get tested and chronographed. Not only by the makers of Ten-Point crossbows, but by most individuals who purchase them. Ten-Point crossbows are pricey no doubt but so are the new Ravens. But I want the best equipment in my hands...PERIOD! I've not shot any Raven crossbows. But I know that from the research I've done they do make a great product. Could you please let me know what has you sold on the Raven instead of the Ten-Point. Is it simply the price difference? And have you ever shot the Ten-Points Nitro 505? I would really like to speak with someone who's honestly had a thorough experience shooting both Ten-Points Nitro 505, and Ravens R500E.
I don't have any Ravins FYI I am an Excalibur guy and Bunjie 3.0 is a Scorpyd. I have a lot of respect for Ten Point and Ravin though, althpugh I dont want a crank. Congratulations on the deer!
@@Deathbybunjie ty for the congratulations and thank you for the quick response. I really appreciate that. This video was immediately followed by the video of you with the Scorpyd and the Burris Oracle scope. Well now I know and like GI Joe says, knowing is half the battle 😉. Binge watching all of your videos. I just got done with the video of you and your daughter shooting the broadheads into the tire. Once again great stuff. I hope you have a very successful season as well. Again I love your channel and you've really educated me on many things. Keep up the awesome content...PLEASE! Your new subscriber Rob from Ohio.
Rich, I think this is one of my favorite videos that you have created! I hit rewind at least 20 times on this video. Very good information and I will ponder it for a while. It is time to break out the chronograph again. Thank you
I don't often comment on RUclips videos, but I did want to thank you for making such informative crossbow centered content. I'm getting ready for a deer hunting this weekend and it'll be my first time hunting with a crossbow. Your videos have been a great help in getting prepared for this trip. So, thanks and cheers!
Great, detailed video, Rich! This is something that some of us aren't thinking about all the time. I also agree that the reaction time of the deer depends on how edgy or comfortable the deer already is at the time of the shot.
I really enjoyed this, I don't hunt with a crossbow, I have friends that do. I hunt with a traditional Recurve and longbow for the past 35 years. I have my own land that I hunt on. I began to notice something that parallels what you are saying. I shoot at 20 yards and I am pretty good at that distance I can keep my arrows on an 8" paper plate. Out in the field, I have been missing at that range, yet if I took a 15-yard shot, I would have venison on the ground. I got a very very long archery deer season, from mid-September to the last day in January. Including November and December rifle season. I think the deer not only hear the noise but sees the bow movement( it is a spring ) and the arrow and arrow noise as it flies thru the air. I hit at the short distances because the deer do not have enough time, the arrow gets to the spot before the deer can react to the shot. Now we get to see in the video what is really going on. It was very frustrating to me and my answer I didn't practice enough or I don't shoot accurately enough all the while there was the wall and in my case, 20-22 yards, and inside of that was the sweet spot. Very good presentation. How far to shoot well that is a personal thing, I know how far I would shoot with a bow and rifle. For somebody else well it may be to far or they can accurately hit way further. Oh, and I am not giving up my Recurve and Longbow I've been shooting them both since '86! 50 lb draw on both.
Aim small, miss small. ALWAYS shoot for the lower 1/3 of the vitals. Speed indeed does help, but by aiming low your odds are greater for a vital hit if the animal hears the shot and gathers itself to run.
Best of luck for your son!! I’m in the same “boat” with my 15 year old! The more their in the woods the better chance they can get a deer BUT also a better chance their staying out of trouble!! Good luck to y’all this coming season!!!!!
In regards to deer dropping i did noticed that if the deer’s head is down they do drop more faster than if their head was up. Must be engaging that backstrap muscles and thus using the head as a pendulum to push their chest down and out if the way of the arrow. So actually faster than gravity. However at 400 fps it should be a done deal. I however gage if the deer is on edge i aim one or two inch lower than usual depends on the distance. Good vid
Yeah I was thinking that lifting their feet up when they hear the bow could help their body drop faster then gravity. Like if an Olympic diver is falling and accelerating they can move their head down faster then the normal acceleration of gravity if they move their legs up, that’s my guess as to how it works. I’ll try to find this one video of a doe ducking an arrow it’s amazing.
Good information for the masses. I have recorded shots coming in and yes those vanes make a lot of noise. I try to keep my shots as far as .25 seconds will take them. You usually have that much time before a deer drops enough to make a difference. For me that’s about 23 yards.
I have found my yarding with slower bows was extremely important, but there was twice now when the deer came in so fast I had no time to yardidge the deer, I had to guess, I was wrong and shot high, I went to a faster bow and now my yardidge between 20 and 40 yards doesn’t matter I still hit the vitals. For me a faster bow works better.
Kind of like how when we were kids we would use the wrapper from a twinkie , spread it out keeping it tight then blow on it , then it would make a very loud whistle . All From a plastic wrapper .
Over the years I have noticed when a deer is casually walking just inside 20yds, I wait for the front leg to extend forward and tuck the bolt where you can sometimes see impact and obviously the deer can hardly react. But a stationary deer just a few yards further amazes me how fast they can drop for sure.
For myself the entire idea of archery is the excitement and challenge of being close to the game. Why I have been satisfied with same bow 30+ years. The new bow iam considering is 340 fps but I still go 30yds max personally. I find 30yds for turkey shotgun and 60 yes ideal for smooth bore slugs. For me long distance shooting may lead to not enjoying the experience of the hunt as much.
This is a GREAT conversation. I've seen Grant Woods' video, as well as numerous others about the subject; your video adds a significant element to the compendium of knowledge about this important subject. Cummings' formula (which I don't believe he mentioned on Dr. Woods' video) alone is worth the price of admission. Thank you!
Much appreciated! With Dr. Woods video he was worried making a general claim like that could muddy up what we were trying to teach. While it isn't perfect for every setup in every situation, it's what I tell new hunters and has helped quite a few understand it isn't their shooting capability that is the only factor in wounding or harvesting an animal.
THAT was a great video sir! .. I am just getting back out into the woods this coming weekend with my son and his first deer hunt. He purchased a pretty trick compound bow and has been target shooting recently in preparation. I had bow hunted many moons ago with a Bear compound at 70lb draw which was a beast back in the 80's ... lol. I cannot even hold his bow effectively at draw because of bad shoulders, so I decided to jump in and get a crossbow to join him. I opted for the Assassin 420TD because of dependability and simplicity of a recurve instead of cams and your information just solidified my decision against its little brother the 400TD ... hahaha ,, figured faster would be wiser and you nailed it for me .. many thanks! .... will be picking it up today or tomorrow, so wish us luck!
I hunt with a slower than most crossbow. I hunt as if if is a compound bow. I don't hunt in areas where I have more than a 20yd shot. My furthest shot was 17yds last year. Should be a good week of debate, and insight.
Great video. I have spent a great deal of time thinking about this very topic. From my own experience hunting with a compound bow shooting around 320 fps, I have noticed deer out past 40 yards seem to duck far less often and sometimes not at all. The research presented in this video makes the assumption that every deer is going to react the same. I have taken a couple animals way out past 40 yards that didn't move at all until the arrow hit them. It would be very interesting if Darren's testing equipment could be placed at the target and register and compare decibel levels of the bow going off at different distances as well as the noise level created by the arrows. I think it is a safe assumption that the longer the distance, the quieter the initial thump of the bow and the longer the distance the quieter the arrow is as it slows down. For interest sake, compare the noise of the bow from an open environment like a tree stand vs from inside a pop up ground blind and a hard sided blind.
All good points! I think the research is just suggesting fastest reaction possible...definitely true some deer are slower than others. The difference in perceived loudness between your compound and the typical crossbow is immense btw. Although my new Scorpyd is pretty "quiet" in comparison to our Excaliburs.
Long time compound bow hunter here but never hunted with a crossbow l bought my first crossbow last week it's a barnett xp380 can't wait to take it deer hunting a lot of good information in you're video mr death by bunjie
I shoot a 2009 Excalibur Ibex from the original flagship line (Pheonix, Ibex, Vortex, Exocet, Exomax, Equinox... and so on), and although large and not too fast......damn is it accurate. I can put 5 bolts in an apple sized circle at 50 yds while sitting on the ground with the bow over my knee. Took a doe in 2019 - 30 yds quartering towards, broke the shoulder, went through diaphram and exited on opposite side belly near far leg. I'd be real interested in a micro take down Excalibur though, could put a good mobile stalk on big game with that.
Late to the party but very useful information thank you. I'm shooting a 10 point Vanguard S440 with a Burris Oracle X scope. I think for me 50 will be my Max.
How about recording a bow or crossbow sound and playing it back at the same decibel. That would tell you if it is just the bow or if they continue to hear the arrow.
Thank You for another great video. I truly enjoy your knowledgeable, informative & entertaining videos. Please keep them coming while enjoying the sport we all love. Best of luck this season.
Sorry for using metric units of measurement and calculating very imprecisely and ignoring dynamic changes: the arrow speed is reduced by air friction, the distance travelled by an arrow is longer because the flight path is not straight, etc. The speed of sound is 343 m / s. 500 FPS is 142 m / s. Now we calculate a shot from a distance of 50 yards which corresponds to 46 m. The firing sound reaches the deer in 134 ms, the arrow takes 416 ms for this distance. The deer has 282 ms to respond. In reality, the deer has even more time to react, see above. At 250 FPS the deer already has 564 ms. Or you just shoot at 25 yards😉 A (cross-)bow that is as quiet as possible and a fast arrow seem to be important for a successful hunt. Greetings from Germany, where bow hunting is prohibited and buying a Ravin R500 is legal.
FPS and range/accuracy is a very relevant argument. Faster projectiles will experience less deviation from their intended path overall because wind/gravity have less time to affect them.
Great video , .... The dreaded deer juke ,. There's several ways to determine their reaction. I thought i'd take a second and share the short version of how i figure my theory,. Speed of sound is 1125 fps ,my bow shoots 400 that's 2.81 times faster than my arrow ,. Then i calculate the distance im shooting say 40 yards , so... 120 feet divided by 2.81 gives the deer 42 feet til point of impact to react (when sound reaches) at 40 yards and so on,,,.. 80 yards 85.4 feet of travel til p.o.i. ,. Love your videos . Howdy from Oklahoma
That is the time it takes for the sound to get there though, not the time it takes for the deer to react. The deer still has to react to the sound. And that it takes time. And at the beginning the reaction is slow and then it speeds up.
@@Deathbybunjie yes, optimal crossbow speed is around one thousand and fifty fps. We'll have to wait on that though. lol ,. Good luck in the woods brother ! Wish you and your family the best of luck !
I started crossbow hunting in 2008. I started with the Barnett rc150, which killed many deer. Finally upgraded to a ravin r10 last yr. I just want to say thank you for your videos. I find them very informative, also looking to see how the new bungee works out.
I don't have access to the equipment shown, but the safe maximum shooting distance can be calculated. Assuming the deer can drop 3.5" and still hit the kill zone, and that they react in 0.1 seconds the calculations show: 300FPS: 321 Yards 325FPS: 35 Yards 350FPS: 38 Yards 375FPS: 42 Yards 400FPS: 46 Yards 425FPS: 51 Yards I have these calculations on an excel sheet if someone wants to double check my math. lol Arrow speed loss over distance was assuming 450gr bolts that are 20in long with 3in long, .45in tall fletchings.
I've bow hunted almost my whole life with recurve, long bows, compounds and now crossbows....I always like to hit a few inches lower than my point of aim to help account for this. Since I've started doing that my recovery rate for game as doubled. I like to still site in for an exact distance but like to hit 4 inches low at my target destination range. 4 -6 inches is my rule of thumb....take it or leave it but it's worked very well for me. I will let you know how that works for elk this year since I live in Wyoming and 4 of us that are hunting with a crossbows this year all shooting between 409 and 500 fps. We will see what happens
High speed, low speed, light arrows, heavy arrows, compound, recurve, reverse draw. Things change with everything almost as fast you change your socks. I'm still trying to find my perfect setup. Is that at all possible? I have referenced that Dr. Woods video in a few of my videos. At one point Dr. Woods's research showed that if the deer has its head down, the deer can drop faster than one with its head up. That Rule of Thumb sounds very good to me. Even though Parker (rated at 350 fps) has a "100 Yard Scope" by the time my arrow/bow would get to a deer 100 yards away, the deer would be in the next county.
Quite informative thanks, i love watching these types of video's, Sadly its illegal in the uk to deer hunt with a crossbow ( until a shtf scenario and meat is needed 😢 ) but majority of deer around where i live is pretty urban with main roads close by and factory's which are quite noisy, and i pass multiple deer daily on dog walks , id love to be able to use my 375 fps compound crossbow for hunting some deer, you guys in USA are so lucky lol
Rich, I want to hear the sound of a bolt at the target. Can you please set that up? I’ve heard the sound of bullets in the air and it is not pleasant. But I’ve never heard the sound of a bolt.
This " head up head down" theory is interesting. You would think that a deer with its head up would be more alert to danger and then more able to react to sensed danger. Good stuff!
Awesome vid bud,,,,,,im shooting a 370 fps,,,,and was always kinda curious about taking a 40 yard shot,,,,,as my max distance,,,,,,,my wondering has been basically answered,,,,,now im more comfortable taking the shot if i had too now
Back in the late sixties my dad hunting with a recurve tell the story where the deer ducked under his Arrow. It was either Maryland or Pennsylvania your neck of the woods
THAT makes a lot of sense!! Will likely prevent me from even thinking about a 40 yard shot again, with my 320 fps crossbow. Or, ...start researching the 400+ fps'ers? Thanks Darren and Rich!
Was hoping you would cover this topic. Deer pretty much always react to a crossbow firing. I've learned through experience, any good broadside shot under 20 yards, I don't need to worry. Broadside shots over 20, now you need to start thinking about them dropping and twisting away. My first 30 yard shot and kill on a doe with my crossbow was almost a lost deer. Aimed for the heart, just managed to catch both lungs high and way back, she really dropped and lunged forward. Now, depending on circumstances, a 30 yard shot, I'll aim 3-4 inches below the heart, and end up putting my arrow right through that ❤️. Hunting with a Parker Ambusher crossbow, 315fps, 20" arrows, 100 grain muzzy trocar. 5 years now. Trying out the one piece montec g3 125 grain broadheads this season.
Very cool information. I love this stuff. The Whitetail is such an amazing creature. I continue to be awestruck by them every year. Sometimes, especially when they’re frustrating me, I think…it’s just a dumb rat with antlers…(I know it’s not a rat)…but I really do admire them. I think this science is brilliant and fun! The downside of it is that it always gives me one more second of pause to get in the way of when my gut is telling me to shoot! Thanks! Keep it up.
I love my excaliber bulldog 440 I have 2 arrow set ups 1 is basicly the factory 18"bolt with a 150 grn grim reaper x bow head or a 20" fmj with 120 grn brass insert and 150 grain slick trick x bow broad head.
Most attows including crossbow bolts have some degree of helical or offset fletch, they are loud at high speeds! Get behind a tree or building and let someone shoot a arrow by you and listen, deer react by falling and pushing away from the sound of danger. Thx for the video enjoyed y
THANK YOU. what a great video. So here is a question. I haven't started hunting with a crossbow yet. I am getting educated before I buy one. Here is my question. Does a deer hear a crossbow at 50 yards?
Funny to hear people discuss this topic, I've bowhunted 42 years have harvested many white deer , seen my share of string jumping on film, definitely is the sound of the bow plus arrow flying to target, if you slow down the shot you'll see the deers ears pinpoint the source
I wonder if they have done any further research with types of arrows, weight, types of fletching vanes (and orientation) to “lessen” the sound of the arrow in flight. I’ve been shooting several Scorpyd crossbows. I’ve always kept everything inside of 30 yards and have not had a deer duck out of a kill shot.
Great video again Rich! Great idea bringing other experts in to share their knowledge and experience! Ok, my take on the moral of this story is to aim at the heart and depending on the speed of your crossbow will limit your comfortable shooting distance.
I retrict my shots to 40yds and in whether I'm using a compound bow or a crossbow - much closer when using the bow as it's slower. I often line up my shot right along the chest line, but about 2" under and just attherear 3rd of the shoulder bone. Both of my rigs are loud; and I always anticipate that the deer is going to duck. Usually, I can get them to meet my broadhead halfway. Just my 2 cents on it.
So here is an interesting question. We know there is a distance where a deer is more prone to jump the string, however is there a further distance where they don’t jump. My buddy thinks 65 yards that they don’t jump anymore. I know that is a long shot. However with new speed bows in an open field it makes swift work of a harvest. These new crossbows still have more KE past 100 yards than my speed compound bows at 10 yards. With my compound bows about 35 to 40 yards they would jump or duck my shot. I shot one at 70 yards and it did not duck or jump. Now I trained to shoot my compound for weeks at 90 yards and in. My groups averaged under 2”. My eye sight isn’t that good anymore.
That was some good information now I need to take a trip back to my Archery Shop where I bought my Crossbow and see what speed my Bow is shooting . I know it says it`s shooting 415 fps and that was probably with Factory Arrows and that`s not what I`m using mine are Wal-Mart arrows with 100 gr. Rage . Thanks Rich
Speed certainly has a synergistic relationship with energy, but accuracy as well. We can shoot paper targets all day, but when we shoot at live game it is a factor of how fast our arrow arrives. Most of us try to find a balance between that synergistic triangle of accuracy, energy and speed. I wonder how many truly recognize this. We say that accuracy is number one. Certainly this is true, but to what degree speed plays in is part of the balance.
I have noticed on hunting videos that they seem to react faster after someone grunts at them to make them stop. That sound seems to put them on alert, which makes their reaction time faster. So while grunting may make them stop for the shot, if it is not a short shot, it may ruin your results. So don't grunt unless you have to, not routinely as I think some do.
I wish more hunters with any type of archery equipment would watch this. It would push the hunter to make better range estimates and make ethical shots the norm. I shoot very fast cross bows (My Scorpyd is at 428 fps) and have no problem shooting out to 50 yds IF and only IF the deer is completely calm/unaware. If I accidentally hit the shoulder blade or a rib the velocity and the heavy 440gr + weight of the arrow and fixed blade heavily constructed broadhead drive directly through any and all bones in a deer. I find my arrows deeply buried in the ground after complete pass through.
Sound travels 1,125.33 fps. Crossbows don't shoot anywhere near that fast. Speed isn't everything, however. Good arrow flight & penetration are just as important. Wanting more speed/kinetic energy may justify a new crossbow purchase. A person needs some reason to upgrade, right? Especially, If you want to push 2" blades through deer. How fast is fast enough? I think the crossbow world needs to be careful here. A compound bow hunter like myself may start to question a 500 fps crossbow that uses an electric motor to cock itself. Rifles are not muzzleloaders. Rifles aren't allowed during the muzzleloader season in my state. Likewise, crossbows are not compound/recurve bows. Be careful what you wish for! I think compound bows have sort of peaked. Today's bows may be quieter or smoother to draw, but the top speeds from compound bows have sort of peaked some time ago. Crossbows may need to do the same. Especially when cranks and electric motors are being used.
compound bow hunters already dislike xbow hunters, what's new? You think i'm going to tell the manufacturer "hey, gimp my xbow make it shoot under 500 fps or Driftless Hunter will "question" it". Are you daft? jealous for sure though. NOOO U CANT HAVE A XBOW SHOOT FASTER THAN ME THATS NOT FAIIRRRRR
One of the advantages of a louder bow or crossbow, is that deer will react almost EVERY TIME. Why is this an advantage? You can adjust your aim more PREDICTABLY than if the deer only reacts part of the time. Current posting several videos on this topic. Yards are miles in the arrow world.
The extra speed is a benefit for sure, but if you look at high speed camera depicting deers reaction to a bow shot, at 20 yards. You would be hard-pressed, to compensate for the speed of sound, and a deer's reaction time, if you were using a 38 Special revolver at around 800 ft per second. It happens that quick. You can do things to minimize the drop, what they call jumping string, which is actually ducking the arrow. Stand on the ground with your legs straight and try to jump. You can't. You have to bend your knees before you can do that, and the deer are no different. They have to go down before they can jump. The speed of sound is a given, the deer's reaction time, is not,, but their hearing time is a given.
I have to bring up the fact that the hanging Ballon is very teardrop shaped but once it is released it returns to a more even round shape very rapidly from the elastisity of Ballon actually making the vital area smaller and that snapping movement accelerates the Ballon in speed towards the ground just saying
Lower profile, stiff, smaller vanes with little to no offset will be about as quiet as an arrow can get. The problem with that is broadhead control out of most bows, especially if shooting fixed blades. There is one bow that doesn't require a lot of vane to stabilize an arrow after launch...🤔 One more advantage of a Swat. Less noise to alert a deer. 😉 Maybe a vane noise test video Rich? I have some Bohning Heat 2.5 and some vanetec 3.15s vanes fletched up you could compare to blazers. 🤔
Very good video Rich! It all boils down to speed of sound, deer reaction lag time and bolt/arrow flight time to target! Which all boils down to I am more confident with my assassin 360 at 40 yards than with Jason’s 300 fps axiom Bungie’s cousin lol 😝
By the way, it sounds like Mr Cummings is describing the Ravin R10. The R10 is advertised at 400 FPS. More often than not, ravens will come out of the box producing velocity that is higher than advertised. Even though the velocity is advertised at 400 FPS, A great many owners report velocities as high as 415 FPS. This is not an unusual occurrence. Raven guarantees their velocity. It may go over but it WILL NOT be under. That’s Ravin..
I expected to hear some discussion regarding whether or not the deer is relaxed or on alert. I have personally witnessed the degree of the deer dropping based on this consideration. Also, what about shot angle (tree stand vs ground blind)?
Also I have to say from my observance the farther a deer is away from said noise the less it reacts if someone sneaks up behind you and says boo your reaction is quick but if someone set off a firecracker at 100 yards your reaction is lessened however the arrow speed slightly changes at the longer distance the reaction from the sound of a bow is far less at a longer distance
Thae PSA Tac was shooting 400fps well over a couple years ago, actually like 7 years or more. There was also another one back then that shot 400fps, May have had Desert in the name but can't remember
@@Deathbybunjie I know it was quite a while ago but can't be sure of dates. Pretty sure there was a CB that came out a few years before the TAC that also went 400fps but that was like 10 to 13 years ago. Maybe more. Kind of crazy that 400fps is almost the norm now
Even the Barnett Razr did 400 fps in 2013. It's funny to look at posts from Excalibur fans back in '11 saying how 400 fps isn't needed which it really isn't but it sure helps. In '10 Michigan had a limit of 350 fps on crossbows for hunting which it removed in '11. I've been looking at the Killer Instincts also. The prices on those are amazing. Are you still shooting the Swacker?
I would have to back to some of the old DBB videos, but I believe that you said that speed was important,but shot placement is key. Granted, with more speed, the deer is less likely to severely duck the arrow or bolt. I am interested in seeing what Bunji III does this coming deer and if in the cards, bear season in Maine.
Something i just thought of. I'm a gun hunter mostly. I've been using a bow and crossbow for the last 20 years as well, but very limited during the season. Definitely, the deer's awareness/alertness is playing into this the most. Many times, I've witnessed a hunter miss a deer with his rifle. And the deer doesn't even flinch, even if the bullet hits the ground nearby. And a rifle is several million times louder than any bow. So just that fact alone, any deer jumping the string, to a bow-shot, had to be more nervous, etc.
As an experiment why don't you put a camera that records both sound and video next to a target at 10, 20 30 and 40 yards with the camera pointing at the shooter. Shoot at the target and see what it records sound wise. I would do it myself but all I have is a cell phone with a camera.
Hi! I really like your videos, I would like you to tell me the best hunting tip to shoot a deer. I have a mission 320 crossbow and I'm not getting a good result I need a tip that leaves a lot of blood and has a lot unpaced since already thank you for your attention.
I went the faster route some 10 years ago. The bow was a Barnett Ghost 400. What I learned. Deer absolutely can absolutely duck even an arrow eclipsing 400fps. I had a doe duck a full 3 inches at 36yds, almost becoming a nonlethal hit. In fact the only deer that did not duck on the shot was a rutted up 160 class buck that simply looked in the direction of the shot. I held low and missed low. Bummed I missed him, but more relieved that I missed him clean. Last year, my Tenpoint malfunctioned on the shot. The deer looked around like "what the heck was that?". None bounded away, and went back to feeding. I'm in the camp that the arrow, which sounds like a gigantic bumble bee racing towards you, is more likely to cause the deer to drop and turn away. What does one do if all the sudden a big gigantic buzzing noise is heard. That's right, one drops and turn away. Only something supersonic can beat those reflexes.
@@Deathbybunjie @Death by Bunjie My TenPoint literally sounded like a shotgun going off. Also, I've experienced a tree falling or a gun going off nearby, deer may go stiff and look around but none run off in a panic. Ranch Fairy had an excellent video where it's demonstrated that the animals (hogs) did not react until the arrow was within 10 yds. Set your phone/camera approximately approximately 10yds from the target. What you'll record a is a "thump ZZZZZ". The arrow is much louder than than the bow. You are holding the bow on the shot. Of course it's sounds loud. But that arrow is louder to the deer, and gets louder asit approaches.
Great video and the difference between just 50 FPS is something. But I do believe deer use their back muscles to pull down their bodies which is faster than gravity. Similar to the way a boxer bobs and weaves. Nevertheless great video and certainly gives one something to hang their hat on
They can't "pull down their bodies" because can't grab anything to pull on though...it's all gravity. "Ducking" requires them to drop first. Love the boxing analogy too--I'm a huge boxing fan! But it's kinda the same. Tyson bent his legs, ducked under and sprang up on the inside...some of that was muscle to bend at torso but bending legs and dropping required gravity. Fortunately for him, nobody throws faster than gravity...he wasn't facing arrows haha. When we're talking specifically about deer "ducking" the string, we're talking about deer dropping before the arrow gets there, and the ducking is all gravity. Fortunately for us, deer can't bend at the waist either haha.
@@Deathbybunjie I used to watch hunting shows but they've become scripted and head banging metal background music turned me off. And I'm a metal guy, lol. Your show is truly a breath of fresh air. Regular guy, real experiences just like we all encounter in the woods, and your daughter is such a nice kid, she's a great part of the show.
Their experiment is interesting although their results could have more easily been predicted with some simple mathematical models. The physics of arrow flight is a fairly well-studied topic among university researchers, and there's thousands of hours of combined footage out there of deer reacting in varying states of alertness to the shot of a bowhunter. On average, it takes just 0.16 seconds from the time the hunter shoots to the time the deer begins ducking. The average hunting shot takes place at around 20 yards. Sound travels ~1100 ft/s, giving the deer a reaction time of as little as just one-tenth of a second, immediately after which its vitals could begin free falling. It is the hunter's responsibility, on any deer they shoot, to allow for a response as swift as this. If we further assume the arrow with broadhead has a drag coefficient of 2.0, a diameter of 0.344", and weighs in at a healthy 450 grains, then what we find is that its average transit speed out to any distance will drop 1% for every 8 yards. If we stick with the recommended maximum 4" of vitals drop to ensure the most ethical shot possible, then it is fairly straightforward via trial and error to work out the theoretical maximum ethical range. For a 300 fps crossbow (the original Bunjie), that range comes out to be 32 yards. For a 350 fps crossbow (Bunjie 2.0), it jumps to 39 yards. For the magical 400 fps breakthrough (Bunjie 3.0), 47 yards. For a 450 fps crossbow, 56 yards, and the Ravin R500, when finally in the hands of hunters, will hold the crown at 65 yards. Notice that the ethical range does not simply increase in a linear fashion with speed. Instead, it's a quadratic relationship.
I did these calculations for Dr. Woods. He stated he preferred an apparatus as most viewers prefer the "I need to see it to believe it" approach. I created an animation where you could input arrow speed, arrow weight, and distance and it would create an animation you could click through to watch the arrow and deer drop. We could not get it hosted to the GrowingDeer website in a manner they could include advertisements on the side so it never got posted. The physics is pretty straight forward, the only variable comes from what the deer does once it is loaded, push forward, turn away, hit its chest off the ground. I also used kinetic tracking programs to get the drop rate of a deer based on known distances, as they can't quite drop at the speed of gravity given the way muscles relax by motor unit recruitment. This stuff seems to be a bit too boring for most viewers. I've contemplated using my channel to do this sort of stuff but just haven't had the time yet. You might have just convinced me.
Good observation on the distance you can shoot vs the speed of the bow/x-bow not being linear. The rule of thumb is mostly for bow and arrows. I assume you are going to school for physics or a physics based discipline (engineering or the like)? The big differentiator is the speed of the arrow/bolt compared to the speed of sound. At 1100 fps (or a little more thanks to air resistance) the limit you can shoot before the deer can hear and respond approaches infinity. And some people say calculus has no use in everyday life!
What am awesome video you put together. The way you cut it together really helps sum up the rambling I sometimes find myself doing. I love seeing hunters talking about topics that impact us and the comments on this video are all so constructive! If you ever want to talk again let me know, or if you're in the area stop by and we'll test out some bows and x-bows against the deer drop simulator.
*an
Please do this! Fascinating stuff!
I'm not going to read all the comments, however if you shoot a deer when it's head is down feeding it stands a much better chance of ducking your arrow than it does if it's head is up. If the head is down and it's feeding it can use the weight of its head as a counterbalance to lower its body more quickly than if it's head was up. Just something to consider. Be well keep making your videos I enjoy them immensely.
Yes, your right! When the head goes up, the center of gravity is the same but the vitals are lower.
Interesting theory. Any evidence to support it? I always figured a feeding deer is a better target because it is probably more relaxed than one standing an alert.
@@jeffsalsieder640 No. I've seen it expressed several times on videos. I did watch one video that was about a scientific as one could be with "Ducking" the arrow, it certainly not something that can be done in the lab.
However... The logic does makes sense to me.
If you had to just duck as fast as you could that's one thing, but imagine if you had a rope attached to the ground and someone told you to duck and you could pull on that rope you could do it faster.
I'll confirm this theory with my own personal experience after hours of reviewing camera footage. I missed a deer last year high (shoulder blades) because he was able to duck it. You can watch the path of the arrow and at the last second he ducks just enough. Previous year I killed a buck with a lung shot, just above heart, while his head was up. This is counterintuitive to what we think will happen. If the head is up in alert we think they will be more likely to pounce, although true, I think they are even more alert, poised to duck and bolt while their head is down. I agree with Crockett.
Aim low anticipating that "startle" the deer has at the sudden sound.
Watch deer in a thunderstorm or windstorm when branches are cracking and falling. They have that same initial startled reaction...loading the legs to flee, but uncertain if they need to flee or where to head when they do in that initial half second after release.
Solid
The trouble is
The animals get a vote after you shoot.
And some animals are hyped up
Some aren’t - rutting buck will be out of his mind. Late season doe on a calm day - haha - ninja!
The amount and direction of the jump is completely unpredictable.
They’ve been avoiding dying 24/7 - 365 their whole lives.
Good point for sure, some hyped up, some not! Does in PA are on alert and stare at the blind, spot movement in treestands, you name it. But when I see suburban deer in Maryland in the early season they couldn't care less, practically wave at passing cars LOL. And yeah, rutting bucks are on a mission...Bunjie is not their chief concern. 😄
You mean the deer doesn’t stand still like a 3D target? Please, say it isn’t so. Once I quit worrying about speed and changed my aiming point my success rate went way up. Aiming farther forward than what most think is ideal and at the lower 1/3 is where it’s at. Let’s not forget to beef up the arrow system and use sharp real broadheads too. It makes a huge difference.
You know HUE ?
HUE DAMN RIGHT 😂
I love your analysis on subjects for consideration, this one is most excellent data.
With a fast crossbow I generally lean toward more arrow speed with less arrow arc path and an expandable like swhacker, they truly fly like a field point for me, many many deer down, if that stops working for me or I'm hunting something requiring a heavier arrow/fixed blade, I will adjust accordingly.
When I was younger I would try to defeat every argument against what I was doing that was actually working for me, hybrid heads, heavy arrows etc.etc., it did not work for me, if it's not broke don't fix it.
Flat trajectory, less reaction time, major wound channel, deer are not that hard to shoot through, hitting the shoulder blade has not been a problem at all.
Thank you sir, great channel.
Bill Liggett
When I was on a sensor planting mission and long range reconnaissance patrol, way back in the late 70’s, we always depended on becoming a part of the ambience of nature. We listened like animals listen, as you described. We even learned to use our sense of smell. I’m a much better hunter because of my military experiences from over 42 years ago.
Can shoot a lot of deer from a covered fighting position. Your scent drops in the hole. Any grunt knows deer don't sense you when you're standing armpit deep in a hole.
Add a propane heater for keeping arthritic joints and grandkids toasty warm and dry if it's nasty out.
@ I love your channel and I really enjoy your videos. They are extremely well produced and very educational for us crossbow hunters. I've been a crossbow hunter for over 20 years now. Due to a very bad injury I had to hang up traditional and compound bow hunting. Some time has passed since you've dropped this video. I purchased a Ten-Point RS 440 Havoc a year and a half ago. That bow has been chronographed at 420 ft per second. I downed 2 deer last bow season with it. The first was at 57 yards and the second deer was at 64 yards. This year I picked up the new Nitro 505 from Ten-Point and I killed a doe yesterday at 63 yards. I live in Ohio and I'm literally 5 minutes away from Ten-Point headquarters and The Hunter's Outlet. That's basically a sister company that sells all of Ten-Points products. They also have an indoor range that's open to the public, and it's also where all the products get tested and chronographed. Not only by the makers of Ten-Point crossbows, but by most individuals who purchase them. Ten-Point crossbows are pricey no doubt but so are the new Ravens. But I want the best equipment in my hands...PERIOD! I've not shot any Raven crossbows. But I know that from the research I've done they do make a great product. Could you please let me know what has you sold on the Raven instead of the Ten-Point. Is it simply the price difference? And have you ever shot the Ten-Points Nitro 505? I would really like to speak with someone who's honestly had a thorough experience shooting both Ten-Points Nitro 505, and Ravens R500E.
I don't have any Ravins FYI I am an Excalibur guy and Bunjie 3.0 is a Scorpyd. I have a lot of respect for Ten Point and Ravin though, althpugh I dont want a crank. Congratulations on the deer!
@@Deathbybunjie ty for the congratulations and thank you for the quick response. I really appreciate that. This video was immediately followed by the video of you with the Scorpyd and the Burris Oracle scope. Well now I know and like GI Joe says, knowing is half the battle 😉. Binge watching all of your videos. I just got done with the video of you and your daughter shooting the broadheads into the tire. Once again great stuff. I hope you have a very successful season as well. Again I love your channel and you've really educated me on many things. Keep up the awesome content...PLEASE! Your new subscriber Rob from Ohio.
Rich, I think this is one of my favorite videos that you have created! I hit rewind at least 20 times on this video. Very good information and I will ponder it for a while. It is time to break out the chronograph again. Thank you
I don't often comment on RUclips videos, but I did want to thank you for making such informative crossbow centered content. I'm getting ready for a deer hunting this weekend and it'll be my first time hunting with a crossbow. Your videos have been a great help in getting prepared for this trip. So, thanks and cheers!
Awesome good luck!
Great, detailed video, Rich! This is something that some of us aren't thinking about all the time. I also agree that the reaction time of the deer depends on how edgy or comfortable the deer already is at the time of the shot.
I really enjoyed this, I don't hunt with a crossbow, I have friends that do. I hunt with a traditional Recurve and longbow for the past 35 years. I have my own land that I hunt on. I began to notice something that parallels what you are saying. I shoot at 20 yards and I am pretty good at that distance I can keep my arrows on an 8" paper plate. Out in the field, I have been missing at that range, yet if I took a 15-yard shot, I would have venison on the ground. I got a very very long archery deer season, from mid-September to the last day in January. Including November and December rifle season. I think the deer not only hear the noise but sees the bow movement( it is a spring ) and the arrow and arrow noise as it flies thru the air. I hit at the short distances because the deer do not have enough time, the arrow gets to the spot before the deer can react to the shot. Now we get to see in the video what is really going on. It was very frustrating to me and my answer I didn't practice enough or I don't shoot accurately enough all the while there was the wall and in my case, 20-22 yards, and inside of that was the sweet spot. Very good presentation. How far to shoot well that is a personal thing, I know how far I would shoot with a bow and rifle. For somebody else well it may be to far or they can accurately hit way further. Oh, and I am not giving up my Recurve and Longbow I've been shooting them both since '86! 50 lb draw on both.
That's awesome, quite a history with that! Thanks for sharing this.
Aim small, miss small.
ALWAYS shoot for the lower 1/3 of the vitals.
Speed indeed does help, but by aiming low your odds are greater for a vital hit if the animal hears the shot and gathers itself to run.
Thank you Rich. Really hoping my son (12yr) gets first deer with crossbow this fall.
Best of luck for your son!! I’m in the same “boat” with my 15 year old! The more their in the woods the better chance they can get a deer BUT also a better chance their staying out of trouble!! Good luck to y’all this coming season!!!!!
In regards to deer dropping i did noticed that if the deer’s head is down they do drop more faster than if their head was up. Must be engaging that backstrap muscles and thus using the head as a pendulum to push their chest down and out if the way of the arrow. So actually faster than gravity. However at 400 fps it should be a done deal. I however gage if the deer is on edge i aim one or two inch lower than usual depends on the distance. Good vid
Yeah I was thinking that lifting their feet up when they hear the bow could help their body drop faster then gravity. Like if an Olympic diver is falling and accelerating they can move their head down faster then the normal acceleration of gravity if they move their legs up, that’s my guess as to how it works. I’ll try to find this one video of a doe ducking an arrow it’s amazing.
@@BackyardBroadheads I think that is the right track- They definitely duck faster than just the acceleration from gravity
I remember Dr Grant Woods video on this subject. Thanks for sharing the link. I've been wanting to watch it again.
Good information for the masses. I have recorded shots coming in and yes those vanes make a lot of noise. I try to keep my shots as far as .25 seconds will take them. You usually have that much time before a deer drops enough to make a difference. For me that’s about 23 yards.
I have found my yarding with slower bows was extremely important, but there was twice now when the deer came in so fast I had no time to yardidge the deer, I had to guess, I was wrong and shot high, I went to a faster bow and now my yardidge between 20 and 40 yards doesn’t matter I still hit the vitals. For me a faster bow works better.
Kind of like how when we were kids we would use the wrapper from a twinkie , spread it out keeping it tight then blow on it , then it would make a very loud whistle . All From a plastic wrapper .
Over the years I have noticed when a deer is casually walking just inside 20yds, I wait for the front leg to extend forward and tuck the bolt where you can sometimes see impact and obviously the deer can hardly react. But a stationary deer just a few yards further amazes me how fast they can drop for sure.
Good advice & good videos. I like that your not plugging deer hunting junk. Very informative.
For myself the entire idea of archery is the excitement and challenge of being close to the game. Why I have been satisfied with same bow 30+ years. The new bow iam considering is 340 fps but I still go 30yds max personally. I find 30yds for turkey shotgun and 60 yes ideal for smooth bore slugs. For me long distance shooting may lead to not enjoying the experience of the hunt as much.
This is a GREAT conversation. I've seen Grant Woods' video, as well as numerous others about the subject; your video adds a significant element to the compendium of knowledge about this important subject. Cummings' formula (which I don't believe he mentioned on Dr. Woods' video) alone is worth the price of admission. Thank you!
Much appreciated! With Dr. Woods video he was worried making a general claim like that could muddy up what we were trying to teach. While it isn't perfect for every setup in every situation, it's what I tell new hunters and has helped quite a few understand it isn't their shooting capability that is the only factor in wounding or harvesting an animal.
THAT was a great video sir! .. I am just getting back out into the woods this coming weekend with my son and his first deer hunt. He purchased a pretty trick compound bow and has been target shooting recently in preparation. I had bow hunted many moons ago with a Bear compound at 70lb draw which was a beast back in the 80's ... lol. I cannot even hold his bow effectively at draw because of bad shoulders, so I decided to jump in and get a crossbow to join him.
I opted for the Assassin 420TD because of dependability and simplicity of a recurve instead of cams and your information just solidified my decision against its little brother the 400TD ... hahaha ,, figured faster would be wiser and you nailed it for me .. many thanks! .... will be picking it up today or tomorrow, so wish us luck!
Good information, begs the question why try quieting a crossbow at the cost of slower speed.
That's a good question indeed
I hunt with a slower than most crossbow. I hunt as if if is a compound bow. I don't hunt in areas where I have more than a 20yd shot. My furthest shot was 17yds last year. Should be a good week of debate, and insight.
Great video. I have spent a great deal of time thinking about this very topic. From my own experience hunting with a compound bow shooting around 320 fps, I have noticed deer out past 40 yards seem to duck far less often and sometimes not at all. The research presented in this video makes the assumption that every deer is going to react the same. I have taken a couple animals way out past 40 yards that didn't move at all until the arrow hit them. It would be very interesting if Darren's testing equipment could be placed at the target and register and compare decibel levels of the bow going off at different distances as well as the noise level created by the arrows. I think it is a safe assumption that the longer the distance, the quieter the initial thump of the bow and the longer the distance the quieter the arrow is as it slows down. For interest sake, compare the noise of the bow from an open environment like a tree stand vs from inside a pop up ground blind and a hard sided blind.
All good points! I think the research is just suggesting fastest reaction possible...definitely true some deer are slower than others. The difference in perceived loudness between your compound and the typical crossbow is immense btw. Although my new Scorpyd is pretty "quiet" in comparison to our Excaliburs.
Long time compound bow hunter here but never hunted with a crossbow l bought my first crossbow last week it's a barnett xp380 can't wait to take it deer hunting a lot of good information in you're video mr death by bunjie
Awesome good luck!
Great video!! I wish that everyone shooting videos would use a lighted nock.
Thanks for making that video. I knew there was a good excuse to get a new cross bow for Christmas.
Pick out a good one lol and good luck!
I shoot a 2009 Excalibur Ibex from the original flagship line (Pheonix, Ibex, Vortex, Exocet, Exomax, Equinox... and so on), and although large and not too fast......damn is it accurate. I can put 5 bolts in an apple sized circle at 50 yds while sitting on the ground with the bow over my knee. Took a doe in 2019 - 30 yds quartering towards, broke the shoulder, went through diaphram and exited on opposite side belly near far leg. I'd be real interested in a micro take down Excalibur though, could put a good mobile stalk on big game with that.
Late to the party but very useful information thank you. I'm shooting a 10 point Vanguard S440 with a Burris Oracle X scope. I think for me 50 will be my Max.
I can't wait to use my Oracle X afield, good luck to both of us
Rich, new crossbow hunter this year and this video, like all your videos, are very informational.
Thanks for that!
How about recording a bow or crossbow sound and playing it back at the same decibel. That would tell you if it is just the bow or if they continue to hear the arrow.
helpful video in understanding what actually goes on
Thank You for another great video. I truly enjoy your knowledgeable, informative & entertaining videos. Please keep them coming while enjoying the sport we all love. Best of luck this season.
Sorry for using metric units of measurement and calculating very imprecisely and ignoring dynamic changes: the arrow speed is reduced by air friction, the distance travelled by an arrow is longer because the flight path is not straight, etc.
The speed of sound is 343 m / s.
500 FPS is 142 m / s.
Now we calculate a shot from a distance of 50 yards which corresponds to 46 m.
The firing sound reaches the deer in 134 ms, the arrow takes 416 ms for this distance.
The deer has 282 ms to respond.
In reality, the deer has even more time to react, see above.
At 250 FPS the deer already has 564 ms.
Or you just shoot at 25 yards😉
A (cross-)bow that is as quiet as possible and a fast arrow seem to be important for a successful hunt.
Greetings from Germany, where bow hunting is prohibited and buying a Ravin R500 is legal.
Happy Monday my Brother .like Always. EXCELLENT JOB. A+
FPS and range/accuracy is a very relevant argument. Faster projectiles will experience less deviation from their intended path overall because wind/gravity have less time to affect them.
Time is key i agree
Great video , .... The dreaded deer juke ,. There's several ways to determine their reaction. I thought i'd take a second and share the short version of how i figure my theory,. Speed of sound is 1125 fps ,my bow shoots 400 that's 2.81 times faster than my arrow ,. Then i calculate the distance im shooting say 40 yards , so... 120 feet divided by 2.81 gives the deer 42 feet til point of impact to react (when sound reaches) at 40 yards and so on,,,.. 80 yards 85.4 feet of travel til p.o.i. ,. Love your videos . Howdy from Oklahoma
p.s. Then you can calculate how fast the arrow travels in 42 feet and that is truly his , or her reaction time
That is the time it takes for the sound to get there though, not the time it takes for the deer to react. The deer still has to react to the sound. And that it takes time. And at the beginning the reaction is slow and then it speeds up.
@@Deathbybunjie yes, optimal crossbow speed is around one thousand and fifty fps. We'll have to wait on that though. lol ,. Good luck in the woods brother ! Wish you and your family the best of luck !
@@erinsturdevant I'm pretty happy at 360 and above for 35 and under
I started crossbow hunting in 2008. I started with the Barnett rc150, which killed many deer. Finally upgraded to a ravin r10 last yr. I just want to say thank you for your videos. I find them very informative, also looking to see how the new bungee works out.
I don't have access to the equipment shown, but the safe maximum shooting distance can be calculated. Assuming the deer can drop 3.5" and still hit the kill zone, and that they react in 0.1 seconds the calculations show:
300FPS: 321 Yards
325FPS: 35 Yards
350FPS: 38 Yards
375FPS: 42 Yards
400FPS: 46 Yards
425FPS: 51 Yards
I have these calculations on an excel sheet if someone wants to double check my math. lol Arrow speed loss over distance was assuming 450gr bolts that are 20in long with 3in long, .45in tall fletchings.
Great info..... Glad I'm shooting at 430 and have to worry less.
I've bow hunted almost my whole life with recurve, long bows, compounds and now crossbows....I always like to hit a few inches lower than my point of aim to help account for this. Since I've started doing that my recovery rate for game as doubled. I like to still site in for an exact distance but like to hit 4 inches low at my target destination range. 4 -6 inches is my rule of thumb....take it or leave it but it's worked very well for me. I will let you know how that works for elk this year since I live in Wyoming and 4 of us that are hunting with a crossbows this year all shooting between 409 and 500 fps. We will see what happens
High speed, low speed, light arrows, heavy arrows, compound, recurve, reverse draw. Things change with everything almost as fast you change your socks. I'm still trying to find my perfect setup. Is that at all possible?
I have referenced that Dr. Woods video in a few of my videos. At one point Dr. Woods's research showed that if the deer has its head down, the deer can drop faster than one with its head up.
That Rule of Thumb sounds very good to me. Even though Parker (rated at 350 fps) has a "100 Yard Scope" by the time my arrow/bow would get to a deer 100 yards away, the deer would be in the next county.
Are you able to differentiate between the different reticles with that many? That's my problem.
@@Deathbybunjie They are labeled and lighted. But as you know I'm mostly interested in the top 3, 20-40
EXCELLENT INFORMATIVE VIDEO. THANKS TO ALL!!
Thank you and thanks for watching!
Quite informative thanks, i love watching these types of video's, Sadly its illegal in the uk to deer hunt with a crossbow ( until a shtf scenario and meat is needed 😢 ) but majority of deer around where i live is pretty urban with main roads close by and factory's which are quite noisy, and i pass multiple deer daily on dog walks , id love to be able to use my 375 fps compound crossbow for hunting some deer, you guys in USA are so lucky lol
this is very interesting, thanks for putting this together guys
Great video with good solid information. Will watch again.
Rich, I want to hear the sound of a bolt at the target. Can you please set that up?
I’ve heard the sound of bullets in the air and it is not pleasant. But I’ve never heard the sound of a bolt.
Awesome!!! Thank you.
Looking for your video where you get bunjie JR?
I think this might be the first one... ruclips.net/video/gbdmI0n3-lQ/видео.html
This video is very interesting and informative. Thanks for your hard work.
This " head up head down" theory is interesting. You would think that a deer with its head up would be more alert to danger and then more able to react to sensed danger. Good stuff!
Excellent video Rich, I appreciate it for sure.
Awesome vid bud,,,,,,im shooting a 370 fps,,,,and was always kinda curious about taking a 40 yard shot,,,,,as my max distance,,,,,,,my wondering has been basically answered,,,,,now im more comfortable taking the shot if i had too now
Back in the late sixties my dad hunting with a recurve tell the story where the deer ducked under his Arrow. It was either Maryland or Pennsylvania your neck of the woods
Rich, very impressive information and scientic testing to boot! Great video!
Love the work you do to bring us the best info out there !!!
THAT makes a lot of sense!! Will likely prevent me from even thinking about a 40 yard shot again, with my 320 fps crossbow.
Or, ...start researching the 400+ fps'ers?
Thanks Darren and Rich!
Was hoping you would cover this topic. Deer pretty much always react to a crossbow firing. I've learned through experience, any good broadside shot under 20 yards, I don't need to worry. Broadside shots over 20, now you need to start thinking about them dropping and twisting away. My first 30 yard shot and kill on a doe with my crossbow was almost a lost deer. Aimed for the heart, just managed to catch both lungs high and way back, she really dropped and lunged forward. Now, depending on circumstances, a 30 yard shot, I'll aim 3-4 inches below the heart, and end up putting my arrow right through that ❤️.
Hunting with a Parker Ambusher crossbow, 315fps, 20" arrows, 100 grain muzzy trocar. 5 years now. Trying out the one piece montec g3 125 grain broadheads this season.
Very cool information. I love this stuff. The Whitetail is such an amazing creature. I continue to be awestruck by them every year. Sometimes, especially when they’re frustrating me, I think…it’s just a dumb rat with antlers…(I know it’s not a rat)…but I really do admire them. I think this science is brilliant and fun! The downside of it is that it always gives me one more second of pause to get in the way of when my gut is telling me to shoot!
Thanks! Keep it up.
Great information brother 😀👌
I love my excaliber bulldog 440 I have 2 arrow set ups 1 is basicly the factory 18"bolt with a 150 grn grim reaper x bow head or a 20" fmj with 120 grn brass insert and 150 grain slick trick x bow broad head.
Most attows including crossbow bolts have some degree of helical or offset fletch, they are loud at high speeds! Get behind a tree or building and let someone shoot a arrow by you and listen, deer react by falling and pushing away from the sound of danger. Thx for the video enjoyed y
THANK YOU. what a great video. So here is a question. I haven't started hunting with a crossbow yet. I am getting educated before I buy one. Here is my question. Does a deer hear a crossbow at 50 yards?
Less than they would at 20 but it definitely is still a thing, it depends on a lot of things like whether they're on to you or not also
the speed of sound is a constant. The source of that sound is localised at the xbow.
Funny to hear people discuss this topic, I've bowhunted 42 years have harvested many white deer , seen my share of string jumping on film, definitely is the sound of the bow plus arrow flying to target, if you slow down the shot you'll see the deers ears pinpoint the source
Good content, thanks for sharing this information.
I wonder if they have done any further research with types of arrows, weight, types of fletching vanes (and orientation) to “lessen” the sound of the arrow in flight. I’ve been shooting several Scorpyd crossbows. I’ve always kept everything inside of 30 yards and have not had a deer duck out of a kill shot.
Scorpyd doesn't make slow stuff lol
Great video again Rich! Great idea bringing other experts in to share their knowledge and experience! Ok, my take on the moral of this story is to aim at the heart and depending on the speed of your crossbow will limit your comfortable shooting distance.
Indeed!
I retrict my shots to 40yds and in whether I'm using a compound bow or a crossbow - much closer when using the bow as it's slower.
I often line up my shot right along the chest line, but about 2" under and just attherear 3rd of the shoulder bone.
Both of my rigs are loud; and I always anticipate that the deer is going to duck.
Usually, I can get them to meet my broadhead halfway. Just my 2 cents on it.
Restrict*
So here is an interesting question. We know there is a distance where a deer is more prone to jump the string, however is there a further distance where they don’t jump. My buddy thinks 65 yards that they don’t jump anymore. I know that is a long shot. However with new speed bows in an open field it makes swift work of a harvest. These new crossbows still have more KE past 100 yards than my speed compound bows at 10 yards.
With my compound bows about 35 to 40 yards they would jump or duck my shot. I shot one at 70 yards and it did not duck or jump. Now I trained to shoot my compound for weeks at 90 yards and in. My groups averaged under 2”. My eye sight isn’t that good anymore.
We did discuss that...and it'll part of a video soon
@@Deathbybunjie looking forward to it. Loving the rate of videos your putting out. It’s amping me up for this season.
That was some good information now I need to take a trip back to my Archery Shop where I bought my Crossbow and see what speed my Bow is shooting . I know it says it`s shooting 415 fps and that was probably with Factory Arrows and that`s not what I`m using mine are Wal-Mart arrows with 100 gr. Rage . Thanks Rich
Oh yeah that'll get it done!
Good info. Thank you for sharing.
Speed certainly has a synergistic relationship with energy, but accuracy as well. We can shoot paper targets all day, but when we shoot at live game it is a factor of how fast our arrow arrives. Most of us try to find a balance between that synergistic triangle of accuracy, energy and speed. I wonder how many truly recognize this. We say that accuracy is number one. Certainly this is true, but to what degree speed plays in is part of the balance.
I have noticed on hunting videos that they seem to react faster after someone grunts at them to make them stop. That sound seems to put them on alert, which makes their reaction time faster. So while grunting may make them stop for the shot, if it is not a short shot, it may ruin your results. So don't grunt unless you have to, not routinely as I think some do.
I wish more hunters with any type of archery equipment would watch this. It would push the hunter to make better range estimates and make ethical shots the norm. I shoot very fast cross bows (My Scorpyd is at 428 fps) and have no problem shooting out to 50 yds IF and only IF the deer is completely calm/unaware. If I accidentally hit the shoulder blade or a rib the velocity and the heavy 440gr + weight of the arrow and fixed blade heavily constructed broadhead drive directly through any and all bones in a deer. I find my arrows deeply buried in the ground after complete pass through.
Arrow speed vs. Deer reaction time, it matters...... it matters a lot.🎯👍😎
Sound travels 1,125.33 fps. Crossbows don't shoot anywhere near that fast. Speed isn't everything, however. Good arrow flight & penetration are just as important. Wanting more speed/kinetic energy may justify a new crossbow purchase. A person needs some reason to upgrade, right? Especially, If you want to push 2" blades through deer. How fast is fast enough? I think the crossbow world needs to be careful here. A compound bow hunter like myself may start to question a 500 fps crossbow that uses an electric motor to cock itself. Rifles are not muzzleloaders. Rifles aren't allowed during the muzzleloader season in my state. Likewise, crossbows are not compound/recurve bows. Be careful what you wish for!
I think compound bows have sort of peaked. Today's bows may be quieter or smoother to draw, but the top speeds from compound bows have sort of peaked some time ago. Crossbows may need to do the same. Especially when cranks and electric motors are being used.
compound bow hunters already dislike xbow hunters, what's new? You think i'm going to tell the manufacturer "hey, gimp my xbow make it shoot under 500 fps or Driftless Hunter will "question" it". Are you daft? jealous for sure though. NOOO U CANT HAVE A XBOW SHOOT FASTER THAN ME THATS NOT FAIIRRRRR
Thank you, again.
Ravin bows are crazy nice! and crazy expensive. I'd still love to have one!
One of the advantages of a louder bow or crossbow, is that deer will react almost EVERY TIME. Why is this an advantage? You can adjust your aim more PREDICTABLY than if the deer only reacts part of the time. Current posting several videos on this topic. Yards are miles in the arrow world.
Excellent video Rich
The extra speed is a benefit for sure, but if you look at high speed camera depicting deers reaction to a bow shot, at 20 yards. You would be hard-pressed, to compensate for the speed of sound, and a deer's reaction time, if you were using a 38 Special revolver at around 800 ft per second. It happens that quick. You can do things to minimize the drop, what they call jumping string, which is actually ducking the arrow. Stand on the ground with your legs straight and try to jump. You can't. You have to bend your knees before you can do that, and the deer are no different. They have to go down before they can jump. The speed of sound is a given, the deer's reaction time, is not,, but their hearing time is a given.
I have more on this topic, a video on maximum effective range, coming soon! Thanks for your interest.
I can understand the arrow/bolt making sound while in flight because of the weight and speed of the arrows
Thank you for the vid . I believe you because you seem to be honest
I have to bring up the fact that the hanging Ballon is very teardrop shaped but once it is released it returns to a more even round shape very rapidly from the elastisity of Ballon actually making the vital area smaller and that snapping movement accelerates the Ballon in speed towards the ground just saying
Lower profile, stiff, smaller vanes with little to no offset will be about as quiet as an arrow can get. The problem with that is broadhead control out of most bows, especially if shooting fixed blades. There is one bow that doesn't require a lot of vane to stabilize an arrow after launch...🤔 One more advantage of a Swat. Less noise to alert a deer. 😉 Maybe a vane noise test video Rich? I have some Bohning Heat 2.5 and some vanetec 3.15s vanes fletched up you could compare to blazers. 🤔
I do like that Swat!
@@Deathbybunjie I should be getting my X1 next week. You are gonna have to shoot that and the XP and see what ya think. 👍
Very good video Rich! It all boils down to speed of sound, deer reaction lag time and bolt/arrow flight time to target! Which all boils down to I am more confident with my assassin 360 at 40 yards than with Jason’s 300 fps axiom Bungie’s cousin lol 😝
awesome video very good information
By the way, it sounds like Mr Cummings is describing the Ravin R10.
The R10 is advertised at 400 FPS.
More often than not, ravens will come out of the box producing velocity that is higher than advertised.
Even though the velocity is advertised at 400 FPS, A great many owners report velocities as high as 415 FPS. This is not an unusual occurrence. Raven guarantees their velocity. It may go over but it WILL NOT be under. That’s Ravin..
Ravin does have a good reputation for that for sure
I expected to hear some discussion regarding whether or not the deer is relaxed or on alert. I have personally witnessed the degree of the deer dropping based on this consideration. Also, what about shot angle (tree stand vs ground blind)?
Alert deer vs not alert matters for sure but both can duck. Angle discussion is part of other videos but angle from a treestand is tougher of course.
Also I have to say from my observance the farther a deer is away from said noise the less it reacts if someone sneaks up behind you and says boo your reaction is quick but if someone set off a firecracker at 100 yards your reaction is lessened however the arrow speed slightly changes at the longer distance the reaction from the sound of a bow is far less at a longer distance
Thae PSA Tac was shooting 400fps well over a couple years ago, actually like 7 years or more. There was also another one back then that shot 400fps, May have had Desert in the name but can't remember
I think pse had a 400fps in like 2010
@@Deathbybunjie I know it was quite a while ago but can't be sure of dates. Pretty sure there was a CB that came out a few years before the TAC that also went 400fps but that was like 10 to 13 years ago. Maybe more. Kind of crazy that 400fps is almost the norm now
@@brinkee7674 it sure is impressive! You are right, especially when you look back!
Even the Barnett Razr did 400 fps in 2013. It's funny to look at posts from Excalibur fans back in '11 saying how 400 fps isn't needed which it really isn't but it sure helps. In '10 Michigan had a limit of 350 fps on crossbows for hunting which it removed in '11. I've been looking at the Killer Instincts also. The prices on those are amazing. Are you still shooting the Swacker?
@brinkee7674 oh yeah swhacker 100% and I agree, back then 350 wasn't necessary, kill anything with 250 hahaha
I would have to back to some of the old DBB videos, but I believe that you said that speed was important,but shot placement is key. Granted, with more speed, the deer is less likely to severely duck the arrow or bolt. I am interested in seeing what Bunji III does this coming deer and if in the cards, bear season in Maine.
Something i just thought of.
I'm a gun hunter mostly. I've been using a bow and crossbow for the last 20 years as well, but very limited during the season.
Definitely, the deer's awareness/alertness is playing into this the most. Many times, I've witnessed a hunter miss a deer with his rifle. And the deer doesn't even flinch, even if the bullet hits the ground nearby. And a rifle is several million times louder than any bow.
So just that fact alone, any deer jumping the string, to a bow-shot, had to be more nervous, etc.
maybe! but the point of this video is they only drop so fast--as fast as gravity lets them--and the results are affected by speed.
As an experiment why don't you put a camera that records both sound and video next to a target at 10, 20 30 and 40 yards with the camera pointing at the shooter. Shoot at the target and see what it records sound wise. I would do it myself but all I have is a cell phone with a camera.
Hi! I really like your videos, I would like you to tell me the best hunting tip to shoot a deer. I have a mission 320 crossbow and I'm not getting a good result I need a tip that leaves a lot of blood and has a lot unpaced since already thank you for your attention.
🤔 Great informative video Rich once again. I am gonna go get some 🍿 now and enjoy the comments that are sure to be coming in. 😉 😁
🤣
I went the faster route some 10 years ago. The bow was a Barnett Ghost 400. What I learned. Deer absolutely can absolutely duck even an arrow eclipsing 400fps. I had a doe duck a full 3 inches at 36yds, almost becoming a nonlethal hit. In fact the only deer that did not duck on the shot was a rutted up 160 class buck that simply looked in the direction of the shot. I held low and missed low. Bummed I missed him, but more relieved that I missed him clean.
Last year, my Tenpoint malfunctioned on the shot. The deer looked around like "what the heck was that?". None bounded away, and went back to feeding. I'm in the camp that the arrow, which sounds like a gigantic bumble bee racing towards you, is more likely to cause the deer to drop and turn away. What does one do if all the sudden a big gigantic buzzing noise is heard. That's right, one drops and turn away. Only something supersonic can beat those reflexes.
The sound of Bunjie going off is louder than any "bee" I've ever heard.
@@Deathbybunjie @Death by Bunjie My TenPoint literally sounded like a shotgun going off. Also, I've experienced a tree falling or a gun going off nearby, deer may go stiff and look around but none run off in a panic. Ranch Fairy had an excellent video where it's demonstrated that the animals (hogs) did not react until the arrow was within 10 yds.
Set your phone/camera approximately approximately 10yds from the target. What you'll record a is a "thump ZZZZZ". The arrow is much louder than than the bow. You are holding the bow on the shot. Of course it's sounds loud. But that arrow is louder to the deer, and gets louder asit approaches.
Wonder if you sound proof the blind just the front wall if that would have a dampening effect
We talked about in our Talking With Bunjie podcast, neat idea.
Great video and the difference between just 50 FPS is something. But I do believe deer use their back muscles to pull down their bodies which is faster than gravity. Similar to the way a boxer bobs and weaves. Nevertheless great video and certainly gives one something to hang their hat on
They can't "pull down their bodies" because can't grab anything to pull on though...it's all gravity. "Ducking" requires them to drop first. Love the boxing analogy too--I'm a huge boxing fan! But it's kinda the same. Tyson bent his legs, ducked under and sprang up on the inside...some of that was muscle to bend at torso but bending legs and dropping required gravity. Fortunately for him, nobody throws faster than gravity...he wasn't facing arrows haha. When we're talking specifically about deer "ducking" the string, we're talking about deer dropping before the arrow gets there, and the ducking is all gravity. Fortunately for us, deer can't bend at the waist either haha.
@@Deathbybunjie I used to watch hunting shows but they've become scripted and head banging metal background music turned me off. And I'm a metal guy, lol. Your show is truly a breath of fresh air. Regular guy, real experiences just like we all encounter in the woods, and your daughter is such a nice kid, she's a great part of the show.
Their experiment is interesting although their results could have more easily been predicted with some simple mathematical models. The physics of arrow flight is a fairly well-studied topic among university researchers, and there's thousands of hours of combined footage out there of deer reacting in varying states of alertness to the shot of a bowhunter.
On average, it takes just 0.16 seconds from the time the hunter shoots to the time the deer begins ducking. The average hunting shot takes place at around 20 yards. Sound travels ~1100 ft/s, giving the deer a reaction time of as little as just one-tenth of a second, immediately after which its vitals could begin free falling. It is the hunter's responsibility, on any deer they shoot, to allow for a response as swift as this.
If we further assume the arrow with broadhead has a drag coefficient of 2.0, a diameter of 0.344", and weighs in at a healthy 450 grains, then what we find is that its average transit speed out to any distance will drop 1% for every 8 yards.
If we stick with the recommended maximum 4" of vitals drop to ensure the most ethical shot possible, then it is fairly straightforward via trial and error to work out the theoretical maximum ethical range. For a 300 fps crossbow (the original Bunjie), that range comes out to be 32 yards. For a 350 fps crossbow (Bunjie 2.0), it jumps to 39 yards. For the magical 400 fps breakthrough (Bunjie 3.0), 47 yards. For a 450 fps crossbow, 56 yards, and the Ravin R500, when finally in the hands of hunters, will hold the crown at 65 yards. Notice that the ethical range does not simply increase in a linear fashion with speed. Instead, it's a quadratic relationship.
I did these calculations for Dr. Woods. He stated he preferred an apparatus as most viewers prefer the "I need to see it to believe it" approach. I created an animation where you could input arrow speed, arrow weight, and distance and it would create an animation you could click through to watch the arrow and deer drop. We could not get it hosted to the GrowingDeer website in a manner they could include advertisements on the side so it never got posted. The physics is pretty straight forward, the only variable comes from what the deer does once it is loaded, push forward, turn away, hit its chest off the ground. I also used kinetic tracking programs to get the drop rate of a deer based on known distances, as they can't quite drop at the speed of gravity given the way muscles relax by motor unit recruitment. This stuff seems to be a bit too boring for most viewers. I've contemplated using my channel to do this sort of stuff but just haven't had the time yet. You might have just convinced me.
Good observation on the distance you can shoot vs the speed of the bow/x-bow not being linear. The rule of thumb is mostly for bow and arrows. I assume you are going to school for physics or a physics based discipline (engineering or the like)? The big differentiator is the speed of the arrow/bolt compared to the speed of sound. At 1100 fps (or a little more thanks to air resistance) the limit you can shoot before the deer can hear and respond approaches infinity. And some people say calculus has no use in everyday life!
How far does a deer actually drop before they hit that “sprinter position” that’s my questioned. Does a deer drop 10 plus inches?
No but the vitals aren't 10 inches either I think is the concern...like 4"