Interesting you say that because when I drew up the plans for my home I built the listening room to the 'ideal' dimensions according to articles on the internet. I've never heard a sound system that sounds better than mine. Similar maybe but none better and I've spent a fraction of what other friends have.
I believe this makes the most difference in order (excluding DAC in the preamp) 1. Room aqoustics2. Speakers3. Preamp 4. Power amp Number 3 and 4 can swap place if the speakers are provided with 2 little power.
I have three amps, each is made by the same company (Rotel), each is 50 watts/channel, they are different models from different years of manufacture. I experimented with them driving the tweeters in my triamp active speaker system. The range of frequencies the amps were asked to deliver was limited to 3k Hz and up. I was amazed at how different they sounded. One was very bright and amazingly clean, another was much less bright, and the third sounded almost muted by comparison. I also have heard big differences btw a low power amp (50 watts/channel) and a high power amp (100+ watts/channel) driving bass speakers.
I got a Emotiva XPA-2 power amplifier(class A/B, with linear PSU). My speakers are high sensitivity so its completly overkill for my use.Recently I did a DIY project where I put together my own class D mono block amplifiers, using switching power supplys. According to people on forums it should sound like complete garbage, distorting and what not. My emotiva pulled 150watt from the wall when on, most I've seen was 165 when I was playing 100 db +. These new amps pull 8 watt each from the wall when playing at my normal listing level, a bit above 90 db, may be 95 db. Most I've seen on a bass heavy track was 44 watt peak from both amps combined. And I have to say they sound great to me. I haven't done any A to B listing tests yet, but I haven't been wanting to hook my emotiva amp back up yet either.
I've recently switched to an outboard amplifier for the first time, and what I've found is that high frequencies sound different on the outboard amp, to the point I almost sent it back. I was not expecting to hear such a dramatic difference, rather I thought it was going to sound louder, or maybe have some more low frequency kick. Speakers truly make the sound, but the amplifier can have more than just a subtle influence.
we did a comparison between a $20 lepai t-amp from parts express and a $800 Emotiva 2 channel amplifier in full range on a pair of Klipsch towers full range. 3 guys couldn't tell the difference in quick A/B switching. We used a multimeter and a calibrated microphone (omnimic) to ensure they were level matched. Listening volumes were typical volume listening range ---- not too loud --- probably only a couple watts tops at those levels. The Lepai was perfectly identical until you exceeded it's power output. That test, and subsequent tests were we lined up about 8 different amps with quick switching and not one of about 15 people could tell the difference in blind testing --- it told me all I needed to know.
Yes you were unable to discern a difference using high efficient speakers. There are many factors that could also be affecting this such as: room acoustics, source material, listening fatigue, etc. But, thanks for sharing your results. Most amplifier do sound similar if not overdriven and also driving a relatively easy load like a Klipsch speaker.
Back around 1986, Stereo Review proved that NO ONE could tell the difference between a Pioneer receiver and a $30K Mark Levinson, so long as the amp was not strained. Carver proved NO ONE could tell the difference between his solid state "L" mod and a conrand johnson, or TFM and a Mark Levinson. And then, there is a guy in New York that ran an ongoing $10,000 challenge if anyone can hear the difference...no one won.
This reminded me when back in the day Bob Carver tweaked different amps in his line up to "sound" like much more expensive amps from various manufacturers. I always had trouble hearing differences in power amps, aside from current and "balls", but having a good pre amp was key...
I put a comment with a link to the original Carver Challenge I lived through it. He did some amazing things with his designs. He did that to make a point, that a good amplifier didn't have to cost you several paychecks to afford
He said that "people who believe that all amplifiers sound alike are those that think that speakers all sound alike". Bullcrap. Amps are different from speakers. Speakers are mechanical devices. He also includes no data with his opinion. Plus his support for amp differences is based on pushing amps past their limits - that has never been part of the discussion.
" Some people believe all speakers sound alike", that's the first time I've ever heard that! I've always heard an amp, is an amp, is an amp all my life, which is true insofar as lab test measurement's are concerned but, untrue when comparing a tube amp to a SS amp, hybrid amp etc, in actual listening test's. IMHO, only similar technologies and applications sound the same, especially so when comparing amps and stereo cartridge's. ,
To be fair , behavior near clipping is very important to me. , tubes dont hard clip but can sound nasty when overdriven. Lower power amps can have simpler signal paths and fewer active devices DOES reduce distortion , but then at limit behavior IS then part of the convo. Obviously an set amp is different and second vs 1st order distortion is a very valid in measurable distinction and difference between amps, but when I hear people say amps are different and then he ran engineer respond on how they are not my response is different amps deliver different performances under different loads and an amplifier that is perfectly suited to a 6 ohm load may see an entirely different load when the average consumer buys a speaker, this difference in impedance matching that doesn't happen on the bench does happen in the real world and in my opinion not only is the reason people think amps sound different but is actually valid since people buy speakers because they like the way they sound not because they work properly with their amp, which is another massive difference, between a amp that is designed exceptionally well that can double its load into a halved impedance versus whatever characteristics one that absolutely cannot do this might have, these are all valid. ..As is its Square wave rise Time Performance slew factor and damping which people who work in the studio may consider a given with their high-powered amps with massivehigh damping Factor and power. but in the real world consumer grade equipment these predisposed Givens are not at all at given and therefore in the real world amp performance and tgerefore sound does vary a lot and in a way just tends to not in the laboratory. It's easy to imagine a perfectly matched load all sounding the same and dismiss these crazy nuts Who Would mix and match but that's what happens and sometimes these mismatches actually tend to suit a certain speakers shortcomings and in the real world it can lead to what we call Synergy in a way that these measurements would not indicate unless you're talking about a microphone in front of the speaker
I upgraded my 25yr. old Denon Integrated amp to a Arcam Integrated amp. My fairly modest system revealed a noticeable difference within seconds of playing my first disc. My old turntable revealed an even bigger gain in quality. The new amps' built-in phono stage showing improvement as well. Gear matters. Not all of us have the same capacity to hear and appreciate better sound reproduction. Just as we are not equal in our ability to paint, draw or bowl, hit a ball, directions etc.
Long term listening will reveal differences that instant (blind or not blind) switching will not. This is often why equipment sounds okay on first audition but when you get it home and listen for a while you pick up on the subtle distortion, colorations you missed at the start. Then further listening only causes more listening fatigue.
Actually, it's you being inexperienced and your ears are not trained and then you can't pick out stuff in blind testing. It's like people who can't hear differences between acoustic instruments. But after years you can insta-judge. I find it aggravating when seasoned listeners fail to point that out. When you are new into audiophilia, you are lost. You have no clue what to listen for. My recommendation: start with headphones. Get an ODAC+O2. Get an assortment of phones, possibly used, and start listening. Use your smartphone as alternate source to listen to something that might sound worse or not than your stack. Before you can specify in clear terms what you hear, what it means and where your perception comes from speaker-fi will rob you blank. And be aware that room-acoustics are a huge deal which don't exist with head-fi. I wish you a musical and safe journey, guard your wallet well. And when in doubt, get a pair of Neumann monitors ;-)
I've heard many amps over the years, mostly when I used to sell high end audio but also in my own home. I just replaced an Adcom GFA 555 ll with a Sonic Frontiers SFS-80 tube amp and they sound completely different. There's no shock there though, one is SS and the other tube. However, before I bought the SFS 80, I also tried a Levinson ML3 and a Conrad Johnson MF 2500. I tried them both on KEF 107's and Martin Logan CLS-II's. There were small differences between the SS amps on both speakers, not huge differences but subtleties in separation, image depth, bass extension/weight and even "sweetness" of voices in the mids. The tube amp was a complete mismatch with the CLS's though, output impedence of the amp is too high and the speakers are notorious for drops in resistance and high frequencies. But, none of the SS amps came close to the clarity and accuracy of the tube amp with the 107's. No surprise there. Here's an interesting read about a challenge given to Bob Carver: www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge#KdzuPwqpmkxeQjBS.97
Been through a few this year, and they all have a different sound, from dry to harsh. I had roughly a $4000 budget to purchase a new 2 channel amp. I am using the KLH Model 5's for speakers. They like juice, the more the better. Now, I use the Denafrips Athena preamp, and it is ZERO gain. It sounds incredible. I was looking at ATI and or Parasound... I wound up with the Emotiva XPA-DR2. This is a hidden gem of an amp, so few even know it exists. Very musical, blacker than black, instrument separation, just incredible. Bass is fast and clean, and the amplifier is very neutral, and not dry in the least and no harshness. Just an honest amp that delivers. Best part, I saved $2000! If you are looking for a new amplifier to drive hard to drive speakers, or a pair of bookshelves, give the XPA-DR2 serious consideration. Emotiva has a 30 day auditioning period. Mine is staying.
I own 3 carver M 1.0ts, 2 stock 1 MKII The following Yammies: 1 mx800 1 m-80 2 m-70s 1 m-60 1 cp2000 And a Pioneer A88-X Each series has its distinct tone. Right now I'm diggin' the A88-X with 40 year old caps and all. Just an elegant tone.
I believe it does makes a difference. How much different, will be effected by several factors like all the ones mentioned in Gene's article. I'm not sure if it got mentioned and I missed it, but also the type of receiver/amp a person upgrades to will have an effect on how different the sound will be. Assuming were using a decent set of speakers, the difference between two receivers from the same brand, will be a lot closer than one from another brand. Or the difference in watts between different receiver/amp at higher listening levels. I've had Philharmonic BMR's (Salk version) since 2016 and have listened to them many hours a day, every day, for 6+ years. I have done a TON of tinkering with speaker placement and acoustic panel placement. I've become very familiar with their sound characteristics. I used a Denon S510bt (70w) from 2017-2020 and upgraded to a Marantz SR5014 (100w). I did not do any blind tests, but I limited my expectations to mitigate any possible placebo. The difference was indeed noticeable, all the way across the frequency spectrum. The difference in the bass was even more noticeable, their was beneficial tightness in the bass, similar to the effect bass traps were having in my room. It is a taboo topic for some people, but I believe it's one that should be talked about. Thanks for keeping the discussion going here and on your forum.
I am running a 7.2.2 Klipsch Reference Premiere speaker setup using a Denon AVR-X4300H A/V receiver. The AVR-X4300H is rated at 125w/ch 2ch driven 20hz-20khz. I added an inexpensive Russound A2100 2ch amp rated at 100w/ch to drive the mains. I also offloaded everything below 100hz from the LCR to allow the 400/880w amps in my subs to handle that power. Adding the external amp has made a huge difference when I am playing music or movies at close to reference levels (0db). I noticed a lot more punch in my mains with clearly more dynamic headroom. I was actually pleasantly surprised that it made so much difference. This leaves the Denon to have all the power it needs to drive the rest of the speakers and to also not push the Denon so hard so as to get really hot, which it would do when I did this using just the Denon at high volume levels. I figure less stress on my expensive AVR is a good thing. I also needed to add the external amp because while the Denon can process 11.2 channels it only has enough amps for a 9.2 setup. I plan on adding two more Atmos speakers to fill out my Music Home Theater room. I was a little wary of getting only a 100w/ch amp, but I did the math on the AVR and the speakers and a solid 100w performer seemed enough, and this proved to be so, but every once on a blue moon the Russound amp cuts off for a split second on the right channel. This is only happening with some very dynamic music at 0db. It seems I am right against the edge of the power limit at times. I am considering switching to an Emotiva 150w/ch A-300 BasX, but I am unsure if I would see any improvement except for the rare cutting out. Alternately, I am looking at a 250w/ch Hypex based 2ch amp to save on energy over the Emotiva. Every setup I used was always calibrated carefully using the Denon's built-in Audyssey MultEQ XT32. I also set the gain on the Russound to about 80% or about the two-o-clock position. I'm not sure if this is the correct setting and I've been unable to find much info on that. Does anyone think upgrading the external amp would make much difference in sound quality. I am already very happy with it now, but the cost of another amp is not much to add. The mains can handle 150w continuous BTW and they are very efficient at 98db @ 2.83v / 1m.
ArJuna22 Did you ever change out the power amplifier for an Emotiva A -300? I have a 2019 Denon X3600h running an 7.2.4 system and I am looking at the A-300 and Crown XLS 1502. Both different class amplifiers and I want to make the most economical and sound wise choice. Also, how are you “off load everything below 100 hz from the LCR”? Is this thru the crossover setting for the remaining speakers? Thanks for any advice as I am starting to learn about crossover, bass management and speaker settings. Cheers
@@kevins.1752 Yes, I got a refund from Russound and got the Emotiva BAS-X A-300. Best decision I could have made. The Emotiva is absolutely sublime and powerful. I set the crossover cutoff on the Denon by setting all my speakers to "small", even the powerful Klipsch RP-280F's. LCR was indicating Left-Center-Right, or basically the mains and center speaker. I actually changed this down to 80hz crossover later as i found it sounded great. I set the crossover for each speaker in the Denon to 80hz for most of my speakers and let the subwoofers handle the low end load. This gives the Emotiva and Denon tons of headroom with all the reserve power they have not having to Drive the power hungry low frequencies. I also have Klipsch RP-140Sa and RP-500SA Atmos speakers and it is important to set their crossovers to 150hz, or else you might blow one with too much power. Setting the crossover any lower on these Atmos speaker would be a risk especially if you tend to use multi-channel stereo (which I never do). Besides this is what Klipsch recommends, 150hz crossover for these Atmos speakers. For the Rears and surrounds I set crossovers at 60hz, but that was just my preference. The Emotiva driving the mains sounds much better than the Denon alone or the Denon with the Russound. You will not be disappointed with the Emotiva. The class A/B Emotiva has great sound and improves every aspect you could mention. I warn you, the Emotiva is a beast and will impress you. I also want to give props to Russound who were very gracious in allowing me to return the A2100 quite some time after i bought it. It just never was a good match for the Denon AVR-X4300H. Now I can blast the house with extremely loud sound and my Denon barely gets warm. Before it used to get very hot if I cranked it up. Offloading the mains to a good external amp solves a number of issues. I owned the Denon AVR-X3300W for a year before I upgraded to the X4300H. I am sue the Emotiva would be a great match for your X3600H. Good luck! I'm happy to answer any other questions, though I must warn I do not check RUclips often, but I will try to over the next few days for you. Edited: The Crown is basically the same as the Russound. I would not waste my money on it, especially when you can get the Emotiva for $400, which is worth every penny and much more. I can assure you that you will be very happy with the Emotiva. Also, the Russound had a ground loop hum when you connected the Denon and Russound 12v trigger (for auto on/off ) and that drove me nuts. Crutchfield replicated the issue and Russound had no solution. You probably know this, but make sure to rerun Audyssey after you make the upgrade/change.
ArJuna22 Thanks for all the information. I am debating between the Emotiva A-300 Class AB and a Crown XLS 1502 Class D and (300 WPC x 2). I have read plenty and watched several YT videos about Class D and AB amplifiers. Did you consider or would you consider a Class D amplifier instead of the Emotiva?
Mr Dice I looked quite a bit at the Crown XLS 1502. In talking with the great folks at Crutchfield and after much other online research it became clear to me the Crown was really no different than the Russound A2100 I had. Both the Russound and the Crown are really designed as PA amps and not audiophile amps. The Emotiva has a much better distortion spec at rated power than either of the two class D amps. The Russound also had a hiss (separate from the hum I mentioned earlier) that was very annoying if you were within 4-5 feet of the mains which were driven by it. I have read the Crown has the same issue. I am telling you the biggest difference is when you crank the volume up. The Russound sounded very good and had loads of headroom, but when I switched to the Emotiva it had all that, but sounded much cleaner. It simply allowed the music to shine through without imposing on it like the Russound did. It just sounded cleaner. I've read similar accounts of the Crown 1502, which really was my only other choice I was considering. The class A/B Emotiva is in another class entirely IMO. It also weighs about 3.5x what the Crown weighs and is built like a tank with that massive toroidal coil in the center. The Emotiva has one fifth the THD at rated power and the SNR is 120db as opposed to the Crown 1502's 103db. The Emotiva is just such a pleasure and after experiencing both for a considerable time each I say there is no contest. The extra power of the Crown is of little value, especially because it drives it does very little for your output level except the distortion level will increase considerably and audibly IMO. Now I play only high end audio sources. I don''t play MP3 files, so I may be a bit more picky. I am running 7.2.4 ALL Klipsch Reference Premier speakers and I vote Emotiva hands down. The sound was good with the Russound, but most clearly better with the Emotiva. I run all my 2.0 audio in stereo mode, so I am usually listening to music with just the mains and the two subs, so the difference is clearly in these external amps to the Denon. I am sure you will likely enjoy whatever you choose. If somehow you can manage giving each a try I would make the effort to do so. Unfortunately, Crutchfield does not sell the Emotiva or you could get both and return one. Maybe you can get Emotiva to find a nearby loaner you could try for a day. Worth a try. I can't imagine finding a better 300w amp than the Emotiva BasX A300 at even twice the price. One last note. The Russound A2100 used to get hot at reference levels even with the gain set down to about 80%. The Emotiva barely gets warm and it has no gain controls BTW, but that doesn't matter because your x3600H will set all that properly for you. I would bet money that if you had the chance to hear both options you would most certainly choose the Emotiva. You have such an awesome AVR and I've come to the conclusion that these PA type class D lightweight amps won't give you what the superbly built and hefty Emotiva will. I wish you all the best.
@@kevins.1752 I just found this and thought you would find it of interest. it's a review on Amazon of the Emotiva BasX A300. Joseph Reynolds VINE VOICE 5.0 out of 5 stars Wide open beautiful sound Reviewed in the United States on August 14, 2018 Style: 5-ChannelConfiguration: ReceiverVerified Purchase Wow I went from a denon receiver to this amp and emotiva pt100 preamp. I was blown away but I thought that the preamp was producing all that good sound and so I bought a crown amp with a little more watts to replace this amp. It made sense to me, I had the killer preamp now the crown with more watts will sound even better. Well, I was so wrong. Apparently it's this amp that's producing that great sound because the pt100 with crown amp sounded terrible. I listened to the crown for maybe 3 days just because I've been too busy and I couldn't be happier now that I swapped them back. BTW I'm powering klipsch rf3 floorstanders and I have them biamped for about 160 watts per speaker. They sound Incredible. I can think of one con and that's, it's too big to fit into my audio rack, too deep by about 2 inches. www.amazon.com/Emotiva-Audio-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/product-reviews/B01IQWAXGE/ref=cm_cr_unknown?reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=five_star&pageNumber=1
I enjoyed an Arcam amplifier years ago and was quite taken back with it, the salesman said it was probably not only due to good components, but significantly had a very short signal path, which he posited influenced the sound.
Bob Carver proved that he could replicate the sound of any Amp by playing with resistors. He said that if you wire a 1.5 ohm resistor on the red wire to your speakers, you can achieve about 85% of of what a tube amp would sound like. That's using a solid state amp of course. He incorporated that feature in his original Sunfire amps with the current and voltage source terminals.
Back in the 1970s I had a Marantz Model 15 dual monoblock amplifier attached to Acoustic Research AR-3a speakers. These speakers are rated at 4 ohms. This impedance actually drops lower to as low as 3 ohms depending on how the mid range and tweeter level controls are set. The "overload" lights were constantly showing on the amplifier. I replaced the Amp with a Marantz Model 250 which solved the problem.
There can definitely be differences. Frequency response variations, noise (hum/buzz/hiss), output impedance differences, differences in the way they handle differing loads, age and much more. Its not to say that the differences will be astronomical but they are there and with a bit of listening, one would notice the differences especially if the loudspeaker system is one which is fairly decent. I've had/have these amps and they all sound slightly different: Soundcraftsmen PM860 SAE P50 Threshold SA3 Crown Comtech 210 Crown XLS 1500 Nikko Alpha 230 ART SLA1 Behringer EP4000 Behringer EP1500 Yorkville SR300
you guys have great videos about audio and video. However, the audio quality of your videos are not very good. You could improve the sound by using wireless label microphones for each of you. Love the content.
I suggest that neck (label) microphones that are not radio but are via cable is the most safest system. Radio neck mics are not necessary for seated speakers and only increase the possibility of loosing the signal. Wire is best.
APPJ makes some very affordable, Class A tubed amps that sound GREAT with higher efficiency speakers! I just got an APPJ 1501A tubed amp that sounds very different than my high end solid state amps (Bryston, Onkyo 508, McIntosh MC162)! I'm very impressed!
I have done a few instant A/B tests using an 'amplifier comparator' 10 years ago that I purchased on eBay to answer this question myself. My conclusion is there were some subtle differences at normal listening level but not a big deal, so small that I honestly cannot tell which ones better or worse. Some even sounded the same to my ears. However, if you turn the volume up to near clipping level, then you start to tell differences easier. High quality ones still will sound clean at high output volumes, but lower quality ones would sound 'blurred' or noisy. Having said that, I only had a few amps at that time to compare, and I did not specifically compared amps with same rms output power so that could have made the difference too. I also did not have true 'high end' amps at that time but mostly Japanese brands like pioneer, denon, marantz etc, which probably explains why they sounded very similar too.
I love class d amps especially that i have always used a mixer in all setups throughout life, that said, a mixer adds class to any amplifier.. As said before, no need for tone tests, the older you are the better judgement(years of listening to different systems, a large array at that) and i stand by that..
A good way to test if you need a power amp is to look at the rated power output of your Receiver's power supply and use a power meter to see if it's approaching the limit. For example, my Onkyo 838 is rated to 720w. If I see it approaching that I should seek external amplification.
You know you are caught up on your rent when you have time to split hairs, about the best of the best. If your system sounds good, than it sounds good. If it sounds bad, than you need to turn it down a bit. And if that don't work, upgrade.
Quick question. If I am starting out with just a basic setup consisting of a receiver, a couple of bookshelf speakers and a powered subwoofer, what would be the best place to start for upgrading? I don't have the cash to do everything at once, but want to make incremental upgrades, working towards an end goal of a decent two channel setup that doesn't break the bank.
An amplifier should amplify the input perfectly and linearly. An amplifier's power supply should be adequate to drive any load within the amplifier's specification. An amplifier should have SNR that rejects noise to the point that no one can hear it. If all amplifiers followed this, all amplifiers would sound the same. I've heard amplifiers and speakers giving a different FR at different volumes. Speakers are usually more guilty of this, but I have heard some amplifiers do the same. My speakers and amplifiers can be listened to at levels so low, I can enjoy music at 3 am without disturbing my light-sleeping wife. They can also be listened to loud enough to make the neighbourhood dogs bark. FR is linearly amplified from low to high levels. That's how it should be.
I had a 1969 valve amplifier 100Watts,oh my god it sounded incredible,massive power,picked up sounds the modern ampl transistor missed out, had a warmth to it that the transistor amplifier didn't have, that something else. So for me not all amplifiers sound the same,valve sounds much,much better
SP330Y that's called distortion. not warmth. just because you like that doesn't mean it's a good think. you're actually messing with the sound which is bad.
Your initial statement that people who think all amps sound the same are the people who think all speakers sound the same. demeans your argument. Differences in speakers are much more apparent than differences between amps. Amp needs my be different because impedance and power needs and the like, but in general it's far harder to distinguish amp differences. To me. spending on better speakers takes precedence over more money into an amp.
i want to recommend a little experiment that might surprise you - take a good amplifier like a Krell KSA 50 or something and attach it to some crappy small box loudspeakers you got at a yard sale for $20. Now get some 1970s or 80s era Sanyo (or similar amplfier) and hook it up to ANY loudspeaker you want - COST NO OBJECT - then get back to me and tell me WHICH sounds better
why don't stereo amplifiers have bass controls in relation to the addition of a subwoofer? I'm torn because I want the best sound possible but from my understanding most stereo receivers will send full range to the speakers DESPITE having a sub connected.
This is a bit of a loaded question. If you have an easy to drive, say 8 ohm speaker with 95db sensitivity, then yes, most amps will sound very similar because its power requirements have been met. On the other hand, if you have a 4 ohm 85 db set of electrostatics like my old Martin Logans, then they may have a bit of trouble with an underpowered AVR. A lot of 'hi-fi' speakers are hard to drive, the most famous being Magnepans which have low sensitivity and impedance dips to about 2 ohms. Of course you're not going to get the best performance from a cheap receiver. Does that mean you need to drop several grand on amplification? No. Once you have met the requirements for properly driving the speaker, the difference between amps is minimal. So 'yes and no' is a perfectly fair answer, though people do pay way, way too much on amps in relation to the rest of their system.
Fricky Fricky Fresh Enterprises International Your comment is why Amos have different power options. It isn't going to sound different as long as the amp is meant to function at the testing load and power rating.
I don't see a question in your post, but I do see a statement. I would disagree with it. Having enough power to drive a speaker does not make all amps sound the same. They will sound just as different as in any other situation. If you have access to a variety of equipment, its very easy to here this for yourself. Just to give an example, I have a small pair of Wilsons that are very easy to drive. 95 or 96db. They can be easily driven by a pair of 15watt SET's. To avoid any confusion, I'll only talk about the solid state amps I have at the house, and leave my tube amps out of it. I have a Rowland 112 (150wattsx2), an Ayre V-5 (150x2), a McCormack DNA-125 (125x2), and a Krell KAV250a (250x2). All of the above amps are overkill for the Wilsons, so power is no issue whatsoever. If you swap those 4 amps out, you have 4 completely different sounding systems. Anyone can hear the difference, even people with no experience in audio. Keep in mind, though, that the rest of the components in the system are very revealing. If you don't install the amps in systems that have the type of resolution needed to bring out these differences, the results will be different.
How well do traditional measurements correlate to what we hear? Are harmonic and intermodulation distortions the only distortions? Or are there other distortion mechanisms we haven't as yet quantified? And under what conditions are amps tested? Mostly it's under static conditions with continuous sign waves. Recorded music isn't like that, it's dynamic, spiced with transients and cascading harmonics imposing a whole new set of demands unlike simple sign waves. In the 70s techs and engineers believed that everything they knew about amp distortions was complete. Until Matti Otala came along and discovered "transient Intermodulation distortion". "If an amplifier measures good but sounds bad we are measuring the wrong thing." ~ John Atkinson
Nice job .....you guys nailed it.....I've owned too many amps over 40 years to argue with the simple fact that the interaction with speakers is the tell tale sign ...you either have the correct amount of juice or you don't simple....the speaker is the only way to truly tell whether the amp is doing the job.....however preamps can have a lot to do with that "sound difference" some perceive....
Easy on the "double down on power as resistance drops" comments. Check out the old Orion 225 HCCA (High Current Competition Amplifier). While designed for automotive audio this amplifier is 1/4 ohm stable and doubles its output with each cut in resistance. I agree that most do not do this, but I'm sure there are many that do. CROWN has some I know. Love the videos, keep it up!
The factors that separate the audible qualities of amps are a) max power output and b) ability to pump that power into low impedances. More powerful amps can sound louder--a clear difference. Ability to produce current into low impedances matters only for speakers that present low impedances. Other than that, even golden ears cannot distinguish high end megabuck from pop market cheap amps. We know all of this via measurement, no need for blind testing, though the testing confirms people can't hear a difference in typical electronics properly performing within their operating parameters.
I love huge class a/b amplifiers. Always found big power sounds better with high damping factor. 3600 wrms on 4 18" JBL drivers ... clean hair moving bass.
lol you guys need to open in school in Florida, I Google like every other word still after almost a year of watching your videos. re-watch, take notes, listen, and have interest, the 4 steps to learning from the professionals.
I always appreciate honesty . . . appreciate your videos. As far as amps sounding different . . . to me there are so many elements in the equation that cannot be measured: the individual's hearing capability can by a technician, but how many amplifier manufacturers or speaker manufacturers are going to measure everybody's hearing to take into consideration for their product's production? There is also in the equation the amount of time a listener has trained their ears to what real music sounds like; the bias preference some listeners have, i.e. bass. Some may prefer overly exaggerated bass and have completely no sensitivity to bass resonance or boom that would drive well-trained ears crazy to distraction. There is going to be always that subjective component where no one is going to win an argument, because someone who has it in their head that their amp(s) or speakers sound the best -- are going to argue they sound the best no matter if the performer on the recording came in and said it sounded terrible. People like what they like. Now some people can be trained to listen to live music and then compare IF they are able to maintain a memory as to what the live music sounded like in the first place. I think most can recognize distortion, shrillness, or perhaps overly emphasized chest voice in the lower midrange; however, it doesn't mean that everyone will accept that as being bad. Music like art is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder, and no one is going to come out with a definite product nor answer that is going to wind up without some detractor saying you don't know what you are talking about . . . but to those who wish to bang their heads against a brick wall to prove the point, when you could be enjoying what you do enjoy -- more power to you.
+carlos oliveira Ahhhhh, the old "if you can't hear a difference, you must not be experienced enough" trick. Whoops, meant to say the old "you're too POOR to know what good sound really sounds like" trick. :D
+ayokay123 This is total nonsens to think that one must posses excellent speakers and amplifiers to know if it's close close to ideal. Because ideal sound surrounds us every day and we all hear it every day of our life. Instruments are not often experience. and have infinity of vibrations. In judgement we have no chance to say if it is good. It has nothing to do with price.
jesaliga The listener is irrelevant if the sound is literally the same. Put it to a listening mic and it will be the same. Why even add an ear if you could show the result?
My friend knows and cares virtually nothing about sound, but a while back I got a couple/pair of monoblock amps even though I had a pretty good receiver, but after hooking up my amps to my preamp even he said he could tell the difference, he said it was clearer with better separation. I agreed. It's really too bad that one of my amps burned out, literally caught on fire. : (
+carlos oliveira It was a Monarchy Audio SM70-Pro. It's really unfortunate because I thought it was really good while it worked. It was my fault though, I had used it for probably a year plus without issue, but because I had it on my carpeted floor I don't know if it got enough ventilation, thankfully the flame came out the top of the amp and the carpet itself didn't catch on fire. I was actually concerned about this happening, but didn't think there would be a problem because there are "feet," and some separation from the carpet, and as I said, I had used it for some time without issue. Also, I didn't put it on my shelf because of the weight and shape with the heatsink. It's truly unfortunate because I bought it used, but still paid a good amount, and I imagine repairs would cost quite a bit, especially including shipping costs from where I live.
+james hunt Whoa, thanks for your interest. I did write a pretty detailed email to the company a few months ago explaining exactly what happened, but unfortunately I received no response at all. This was actually strange and surprising to me because I had spoken with Mr. Poon himself many years ago before I actually bought the amplifiers. He did seem like a very nice person, and I'm not implying that he isn't by the way. I'm not even looking for a free repair or replacement, just a reasonable price to do the repair, maybe two or three hundred bucks, but again, I'm surprised that they didn't respond to my email at all. I suppose I could resend it. As for the damage, its not really visible, at least I cannot see anything, I'm almost tempted to start it up again, but I think I know better than to do that, I remember vividly what happened, it was pretty scary seeing that flame coming out the top of the amp. There's a vent on the top of the amp. I did buy them off of eBay, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, and I don't think they were altered in any way. Like I said, they worked great for over a year. I do know that one amp can work in stereo mode(and it should have sufficient power to drive my bookshelf speakers), but I've actually moderately downgraded my system(got an integrated Marantz amp instead of separates) and don't use the amps at all anymore. Well, I actually started the good one up to power a new speaker(Polk Audio LSiM 703) that I recently bought, but I'm going to return the speaker, it's sorely disappointing to me after all the great reviews I read on Amazon. I was pretty surprised when it caught on fire, my carpet is actually very short, short fibers which are pretty tight and hard. As I said, I was concerned, but thought the odds that something would happen were pretty low, I thought there was sufficient airflow around the amp.
Jimi that’s hilarious. At first i thought these guys were the delivery and set up crew. They look like they could pick up a pair of the original Polk SDA’s ,one under each arm. 😂
I love Audio, affordability, Pioneer VSX 523K can you tell me what your ideals are on this??? also Speaker Size??? Should anyone use a Home Theater in a Box or use component???
Also receivers use different DAC's which does huge difference to the sound. Not neccessarily the quality but one frequency might sound like this through one dac and like that on another one. One might deliver full power all the way down and another might just do -10dB to anything below x hz
+Jay Veyron Is this an honest question? I once heard an Audio Research preamp and a Electrocompaniet amp drive a pair of soundesign speakers and you could hear the good qualities of the amp and preamp through those cheap speakers. So its not a simple question of ohms or price. Its about what you can afford and what works well together.
+Anders Hammer As you said : what works together. The moment speakers is connected to amplifier it makes a new construction which is not posible to recognize what is the reason of speaker and what is the reason of amplifier..Switching the same speaker to another amplifier does not bring answer because that speaker interfers with that amplifier. So the parts used have nothing to do.
I love how many people claim to hear the differences and make some rational reason up as to why they are superior. Prove it. Take the test and win or you are just another wannabe
Anders Hammer They are not saying any amo on any speaker will sound the same. Any amp that is operating within its drained specs ...this removes the arguments for impedance or power needs or anything your chosen speakers may need.
Nice talking. May be I can add something. The confuse in such discussion is that simplifying we say "amplifier sounds" And that's..... Amplifier cannot sound without speaker. Only transformer a little:). So we are talking about amplifier/speaker sets. Already mess ;). Then You mentioned abut interaction and that is in my experience main clou. Speaker interacts with amplifier not only by simple loading it but for speakers using LC crossovers amplifier is getting shifted in phase feedback voltage. At crossover point speaker impedance is usually up and current shifted in phase. And that is the reason why results may be so different then expected. If we compare one-driver box with two different amplifiers then differences between amplifiers shall by slight comparing to ex. three way. . If we use tube amplifier having less feedback then this effect will be even less. Actually I use "almost" one way wide-range and differences between my Luxman, Onkyo and tube Pioneer are hard to notice. Surely they are - Onkyo has FET output transistors so feedback is probably less then Luxman, Luxman ...silicon but beta circuit whatever it means :) and tube is tube with transformer and trebles bending at edge. With multi-way speaker changes are shouting and results change - tube for them is best. For one way Onkyo seems more flat. I see You put big attention to power. Honestly with used by me modern speakers and at 90 dB a power in my speakers hardly reached 1 W. Actual speakers are 2-3 times more effective. My 2x 7 Watts tube amplifier is still not tested for power :) You can listen to it in my video named "Ultimate Reality Speaker ..." Rgds.
I've watched a few of your videos now and I do appreciate what you guys are doing you explain things well. However what you are showing or things that a lot of your viewers I'm sure cannot even come close to affording. It would be nice to see a mid-range AV receiver setup with an explanation on how to get it sounding to its fullest potential. In maybe the 15 to $1,800 range. I would love to invite you guys over to give me some pointers I'll buy the beer I believe you guys are in my area. Feel free to make a video out of it
I have an Onkyo rz820 I've been told it's a bright receiver? In your opinion audioholics Would a power amp help with counteracting the brightness , so improving the sound quality and adding a bit more power? Or would it make sense to buy a preamp?
How do pro-style amplifiers (like the Crown XLS series) measure in a home environment? Are there risks with running them with well-engineered consumer-grade speakers with a decent enough pre/pro?
They don't measure as well as some very expensive products. Still my Crown sound very good on my LRS and Philharmonic Sound Monitors. I would think there are better sounding power amps out there buy not at the price of the Very modestly priced Crown for the bucks. I am unable to clip this amp. My ears give up well before clipping! (95 -100 peak on my cheap SPL meter! Very loud and painfully loud to me!)
I’m kind a new to the home theater stuff but I can personally tell you from lots of experience with car audio amps can sound different now it might not be miles apart but you can have better sounding and were sounding amp’s I’ve experienced it
im surprised people use bass as a determination to a good amp! i prefer detailed and flat.. just picked up a yamaha A-S801 not quite detailed but im loving the sound!
Thank you for a great show! Would you say that different amplifiers sounds more "detailed" or "warm" as often described in product details?I can understand that some amplifiers has more noise and based on the ohm discussion that there could be a difference in base management.
I would say that from a scientific/engineering perspective... All amplifiers should sound identical. We know this is not true in reality. But an amps job is to amplify an audio signal without coloring the sound (frequency), or adding noise/distortion. Just take an audio signal and amplify it. The reasons amps don't sound the same is because they are out of specification and don't accurately amplify the signal without changing the above attributes. This can be caused a number of things by poor design, quality issues, cost cutting, interference, power supply designs, ect. Because of superior design, lower priced amps can perform as well or better than more expensive amps and well designed higher price amps can out perform lower priced units. When I hear people go on and on about how much clearer or more airy is one amp over the other when the amps are similarly priced and speced, I think to myself, either one of the amps is out of spec, or the individual if put to a double blind test would not be able to distinguish between the two amps. I usually go with the latter, knowing that the former is possible as in the case of the Panasonic. I would say in amps over 500 dollars they sound more the same than they do different and most people in a double blind test would not be able to tell the differences. I don't believe in golden ear, that someone is genetically superman with superman hearing, but I do believe that most people cannot tell the difference between things unless they are trained. MP3s for example, there are some sound engineers that can listen to old mp3 compressed files and tell you which compression engine was used although now days it is not possible to do this anymore But average person does not know how to listen for these differences. This may be the case in amplifiers as well but I assert that there are much less differences when compared to an mp3 file that compresses sound and throws data away. I will say in your article you mention putting an older tube amp against a modern amp in a double blind test and people could not tell the difference. I would probably say that a person should choose an amp based on what they hear but my hifi shops are out to steal and deceive people. They will increase the sound volume just a tad on the amp they are trying to sell, the person will hear the difference and generally choose the loud amp. So choosing an amp is more difficult than it should be, but if good specs and not too inexpensive, you probably wont go wrong.. IMHO
Single ended triode amplifiers are my favorite because they are so easy to design you can build them yourself the way you want and you can overcome their limited output power by using radio station transmitting tubes. Their simplicity makes them very easy to maintain and to repair in the unlikely event they go bad. However, I refuse to and I request that everybody ridicule any fundamentalism which insists on single ended, push-pull, or solid state vs tubes. I have heard almost all designs sound wonderful.
Hi guys, great video. I want to upgrade my sound system and need your help. I have a budget of up to $2k and wonder if I should spend it on the best loudspeakers I can get, and in a year buy the best amplifier I can get under $1k. Suggestions?
How should amplifiers sound? Source equipment has its imperfection and so does the listening environment has its impact on the total aural experience. For instance, in-ear earplugs are designed not with a linear response electronically but with a compensation for the audio characteristics of the ear channel which can vary from person to person. Should amplifiers have, at least, some compensation for these imperfection in the source and the listening environment?
So I am relatively new or whatever to this whole hifi thing. With solid state amps, how can the transistors and whatnot inside affect sound differently? Wouldn't fewer internal components mean less signal degradation? How exactly does an amplifier work anyway?
The factors that affect electric current are known and measurable. It doesn't matter what the components are made of (semi conductors, tubes, gold, or lead), if the factors are the same, the electrical signal will be affected the same way. The number of "internal components" does not matter--only the collective electrical factors. Even if the signal was different, there is not reason to assume we can hear the differences if they are small. An amplifier uses an weak input signal to control a stronger output signal to be a more powerful copy.
A person's hearing is most important as you loose high frequency over time. What sounds good to you may not sound good to me. As for Amps, of course they sound different as they are designed with different topologies and have to interact with varying impedance (resistance) from the speaker load . Go to a good hifi shop and listen to a range of Amps ($300, $500, $1000, $2000). You should easily tell the difference in clarity, detail, soundstage and dynamics. Always demo with your own speakers and music you know well. Happy listening. ☺
I'm a strong believer that all amplifiers don't sound the same. some are more powerful than others I have had a pioneer receiver 10 years ago that was very heavy on bass you could hear it down the streets but they don't make receivers like that anymore.
Why would anyone want that kind of muddy sound? Sound experience in incredibly personal (everyone's hearing sensitivity is different) but there are certain universals - Too much pepper will eventually ruin a soup, for example.
Can you please help me !!! I'm a novice audiophile. I have two Martin Logan Montis towers.... what amp/receiver would you use to run them as separate 2 channel, while my Marantz7011 is powering my center and two rears ?
I have heard this for years. There is a $10,000 challenge out there that I don't believe anyone has ever won for anyone who could hear the difference in a controlled set up. I did my own test using a Status Acoustics speaker set up. 4 and 6 ohm I believe so they need a hearty amp. For the test, I used 4 different monoblock amps. Odyssey Stratos Extreme SE on the low end, Classe CAM 350's, Theta Enterprise, and Symphonic Line Kraft 300 for the top end at over $20k. I also have a Theta Dreadnaught 5 channel amp I used for comparison. All amps are high quality, but the Odyssey's are definitely on the cheap end of the list. I was a little disappointed in the results though because the Theta was just a beauty and I wanted there to be a difference. Unfortunately I did not hear any difference. They all had plenty of power on the low end. I didn't drive any past their limits so I was not testing to see which would allow me to play the loudest. However, when I put them on the Dreadnaught, I could tell a difference in this limit. I was pushing that amp beyond its potential. It was much smaller though and not rated as high. Still very nice. When I tested it again at a lesser volume, this difference went away and they all sounded the same again. The end result was that I kept the Dreadnaught and Odyssey's saving tons of money and still had an amazing set up. Maybe my ears are different, but I expect that the $10,000 challenge is still available because no one can actually tell with enough precision if you have two amps that are tested within their limits and no changes are allowed. That being said, build quality comes into play. Aesthetics. Price. Where it is built. Connectivity. Possible features. Power needs based on the speakers you pick. No one is saying there isn't a difference in the amps, but the sound on a controlled system of two amps playing within their limits is not likely to make a difference. Tubes are a different matter. Some class D might be audible, but I doubt that too until I hear it. I'm in the camp that you don't need to spend a fortune, but you will have enough differences to make a good amp worth the while. Pyramid would not be the choice for me. ^_^
carlos oliveira In a capitalist society, everyone wants your money. If only one company made those two amps, they could charge whatever they wanted. They will or should sound the same, but build quality is very different. Cosmetics can be very costly to make them pretty. Features aren't the same. Sound should be.
I can't find your other reply so I will post it here. If you heard something wrong with a set up and determined it was your friends amp....you found something wrong. You weren't hearing a problem with an amp operating within its designed parameters. And saying you can hear a difference in sound from cables almost guarantees you are a fan of snake oils. Unless you have wire that is too small, you will not hear the difference. Snake oil is your friend. But take it to the test and win $10,000 if you think it's more than that.
Hey I have a quick question and if you have time to reply that would be awesome. I’m new to home stereo equipment and I just bought an Integra DTR-70.2 off of eBay but I haven’t received it yet. Do you know if these had lots of issues and did I make a mistake buying it? I just bought a Puoneer SC-1522-K receiver off of eBay a week ago and it is flashing UE22 which I hear is a firmware update but then I unplug it and plug it back in and it will work for maybe 5 minutes and then sound will stop coming out so I give up on that one. I almost smashed it off the wall yesterday
Hi Gene/Hugo, great video but I need some further information on different types of amplifiers. Looking at comparing a Rotel RB1090 2x340 watt at 8ohm class A/B hifi amp vs a Crown XLS2002 375 watt at 8ohm class D pro amp with .775 volt input sensitivity. Both fed unbalanced signal from my Yamaha receiver. Size is a huge deal and cost but how would they compare in sound? My speakers like/need power (Svs ultra towers)
Great informative videos guys. But now I am confused as heck. I have a 400w McIntosh for the front 2 channels (B&W 802D) and was going to buy a Parasound a51 (5x250w) for the surrounds+center, for HT experience. Now I am wondering whether a high powered Emotiva at half the cost would be a better choice for the surrounds and Center channel? Any thoughts...
A Saeed you can try the Emotiva's and send them back within 30 days for a refund. WE use XPR-1's to power our $50k reference speakers and their performance exceeded that of a much more expensive Pass Labs amp we tested prior on the same system. Higher price doesn't always equate to better performance.
Audioholics, my current set speaker B&W685 + nad 326. thinking of replacing the amp with a McIntosh MA5300. Room, source, listening habbit will remain unchanged. So, it is wise move to go for the McIntosh?
If your not using a straight line preamp, you won't hear exactly what your amp really sounds like, no matter what the specs say, I've heard many systems over the years when I first got seriously interested in audio in the early 1960's. All amps sound different, BUT some sound similar, and you have to do a lot of listening to hear the differences, being a musician at one time or another in your life helps.
I can't even imagine that there are still people put there that believe amps sound the same. If these people truly exist all they should be using is a boombox or I pod they have no business being in Hifi.
I have a JRDG amp and it is so smooth and musical- then pop in an Aragon Amp which is a good solid high current amp, it's good, but not as musical- certainly not as refined- to my ears at least.
When you say that as the price increases there is diminishing returns. My question is: what would be the price point that would be considered the sweet spot?
You can get a LOT of quality amplification for $1k for a 2CH amp and under $2k for a multi-channel amp. Spending more can get you more power but not necessarily better fidelity.
That is an open box ---- But contrary to your assertions, there is no meaningful difference among the sound of medium to high end amplifiers - as long as there is sufficient power - which is usually not a problem.
I believe that amps sound different. Now my question is, what will sound better at doing 2 channel stereo at the same price point. A stereo integrated amp or an AVR?
Subscribed! Great video guys... informative to say the least. BTW. ... does anyone know the make and model of the narrower "block" looking amp in the bottom right of the video? The dimension looks perfect for a project i am working on. Thanks!
Obviously some amps sound the same, but are not built the same. As an engineer, its obvious that different products use different components, that are all rated for a certain life span. Allot of this comes down to performance in general... life span of the products, temperature rating in the capacitors, pcb mounted connectors or chassis mounted... do all amps sound the same at 110 dB? No they do not but the engineer that designed the product knows what the specs the item is built around, not the general public. Square waves are great ways to test amps... squiggly lines aren't good and nice straight lines with sudden drop offs can be great. Cross talk between channels, slew induced distortion are all parameters of which the square wave usually can indicate how good an amplifier is over another.
Hey guys, Love your channel! I have one question... Would it be a bad idea connecting a pro amp like:Crown XLS 1002 to my stereo setup? How would it sound?
In my systems, I will use either one amp per speaker (or cabinet of speakers) or one amp per two sets of speakers. Also, I dislike home receivers and use "other" amplifiers instead.
You guys are giving great information but I wish you would take as much care with your microphones as with your speakers. Such ordinary audio for a conversation about highend audio. Keep up the good work with the information though!
I went from a yamaha dsp a1, which I thought had great amplification to the outlaw audio m2200 and it sounds so much better and yet I'm not sure why they sound clearer and punchier. So now I'm wondering what a parasound a21 will bring to the table? Anyone know>
The video never once disagrees that all amps sound the same as long as they're within their range of linearity. Most of the video is about why it can be very easy to drive an amp out of linearity and how better amps can handle the more difficult loads without going non-linear. So it's still a fact that competently designed amps will sound identical. The way I used to always hear it said, good equipment doesn't have a sound. That's why people who say tube amps sound the best, that means they have a sound, which implies, by definition, that they're not accurate. Accurate reproduction has no sound, it's 'transparent', like a clear window has no color, the color of the light that enters the window is the same as the color that goes out. If you want the tube sound, that's fine, just don't claim accuracy, it's not there.
I bought the Roksan k2 Amp and Cd player. I have also a Nad C320 i had for years. For my listening pleasure The Nad gives me much more musical wow's than the Roksan and i don't know why . Personal preference i suppose Im running Apple I Mac Flac/and Spotify Nad C320 Mass Fidelity Relay (Bluetooth Dac) Bluesound Node streamer Tannoy Mercury 7's
I've JBL Studio 190 speakers as the stereo fronts matched to a JBL Studio 120C centre speaker. I'm currently using an old Sony STR 940DB 5.1 receiver. I'm looking to replace it. My query is should the stereo amp & surround receiver be by the same manufacturer?
Correct, but if you do not use an equalizer or tone control, the amp alone is colored by the quality and type of it's parts. Thus, they have a signature sound.
Amp output can be precisely measured for all electrical factors. ALL differences in amp output can therefore be identified quantitatively. If the amps are operating properly, those differences are not detectable when sound is produced via speakers.
great way to kill your amps ability to perform - equalizers only affect frequency response and totally 'gum up' dynamic response... no serious person interested in quality audio uses EQ - though there are some DSP based solutions doing that lately
AVR has RCA preouts and Processors have xlr preouts. i heard xlr is far way better than RCA. so does this really mean that using processor with external amp is way better than using avr with external amp.
hi appreciate your skill set thanks for sharing your info ; I have not heard a lot of amps to say they all sound the same or not I'm sure their is a difference. I have only had Kenwood my 1st receiver and still love the Kenwood brand Denon Pioneer,Marantz SR6006 my current receiver. I had noree earthquake towers that I loved but it was stolen and my Denon 3033 avr I have alwas picked the middle high component right under the flagship model or right below that model so now I'm thinking about a Macintosh mx122 or 121 paired with an Emotiva amp or Monolith amp and B&W 804 towers or something in that class. I would love to here your feed back thanks and keep listening
guys thank you i build my own amps just to do a no holds bared power supply.always build mono block to keep no shared transformer .in the 150 watt range but i only ever use no more then maybe 30. i'm not a loud listener. this is just my piece of mind. maybe this is what makes the biggest sound quality in amps as we have all seen amps with too small power supplys
I love the videos but it seems you really had to play safe here because you're in the position to advertise and review amplification whether its in the form of stand-alones, intergrateds, or receivers. You have a comment stating, " Spending more can get you more power but not necessarily better fidelity" and mention that the sweet spot is 1-2k anything above that is where you start falling off. The boutique stuff is nice but when I hear about the dramatic differences in a system with a 5,000 dollar amp I roll my eyes. These are the same dudes who if you'd have asked them 10 years ago about the pure silver cables they would have swore by their mothers tits they were a hifi essential addition. You like having that stuff and spending the money cool....don't make the less wealthy feel like they are missing out on something they aren't because 10 grand isn't sitting aside for 150lb. bricks.
+CABdosdos Really? When have we been advocates of expensive exotic cables? Since I started Audioholics 16 years ago I've been dbunking snake oil in the audio industry and cables have always been a focal point. I suggest reading up on our history before making false assumptions.
+carlos oliveira It depends. Excellent amplification can be had for under a few grand these days. It's become increasingly difficult to hear appreciable differences with the more expensive stuff even with revealing speakers in an acoustically controlled room.
If you are aware of the price of an amplifier, you will be pre-biased to think it either good or bad sounding. Pre-bias will often determine the conclusions of a listening test. Thus the $25K amp will almost always "sound better" than the $5K amp for those who know the prices ahead of the listening.
i have to disagree that entry level is $5k for an amp. i have heard many products, including amps at widely varying prices. the very heart of the system is the line level preamp. get that right and then amplifiers can be of nearly any price. sure, like 400wpc VTLs and Constellation amps but one can upgrade slower in amplifiers than in most other areas. a great tubed preamp and a more affordable ss power amp can take you a long way before the actual need for more lofty priced amplifier is required. the affordable end of the amplifier market is well populated if one uses his head. in my case, an audio research SP3a1 preamp mated to an Adcom 555II which is hard to exceed sonically at anywhere NEAR its price. note that the arc preamp is exquisitely transparent and more than competent, that's where the money counts. another contender in the power amp bang/buck neighborhood is Odyssey. i am intimately familiar with the Adcom line (555, 555II, 5400, 5500, and 5800) and the Odyssey Stratos and can certainly vouch for their reach into the high end sound capability.
My choice was to get higher end , second hand , with older features and technology however, in most situations this will outperform any current technology of equal price .
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Did not know that Lou Ferrigno was an audiophile
and don't forget buster bluth
I think Lou was or is pretty much deaf.
They say that more than 50% of what you hear is the room. That makes the room the most important element in the system.
Interesting you say that because when I drew up the plans for my home I built the listening room to the 'ideal' dimensions according to articles on the internet. I've never heard a sound system that sounds better than mine. Similar maybe but none better and I've spent a fraction of what other friends have.
I believe this makes the most difference in order (excluding DAC in the preamp)
1. Room aqoustics2. Speakers3. Preamp 4. Power amp
Number 3 and 4 can swap place if the speakers are provided with 2 little power.
I agree with those. And I think that the blue tooth digital receiver comes in 5th, zeros and ones are easy to send well.
I have three amps, each is made by the same company (Rotel), each is 50 watts/channel, they are different models from different years of manufacture. I experimented with them driving the tweeters in my triamp active speaker system. The range of frequencies the amps were asked to deliver was limited to 3k Hz and up. I was amazed at how different they sounded. One was very bright and amazingly clean, another was much less bright, and the third sounded almost muted by comparison. I also have heard big differences btw a low power amp (50 watts/channel) and a high power amp (100+ watts/channel) driving bass speakers.
I got a Emotiva XPA-2 power amplifier(class A/B, with linear PSU). My speakers are high sensitivity so its completly overkill for my use.Recently I did a DIY project where I put together my own class D mono block amplifiers, using switching power supplys. According to people on forums it should sound like complete garbage, distorting and what not. My emotiva pulled 150watt from the wall when on, most I've seen was 165 when I was playing 100 db +. These new amps pull 8 watt each from the wall when playing at my normal listing level, a bit above 90 db, may be 95 db. Most I've seen on a bass heavy track was 44 watt peak from both amps combined. And I have to say they sound great to me. I haven't done any A to B listing tests yet, but I haven't been wanting to hook my emotiva amp back up yet either.
I've recently switched to an outboard amplifier for the first time, and what I've found is that high frequencies sound different on the outboard amp, to the point I almost sent it back. I was not expecting to hear such a dramatic difference, rather I thought it was going to sound louder, or maybe have some more low frequency kick. Speakers truly make the sound, but the amplifier can have more than just a subtle influence.
we did a comparison between a $20 lepai t-amp from parts express and a $800 Emotiva 2 channel amplifier in full range on a pair of Klipsch towers full range. 3 guys couldn't tell the difference in quick A/B switching. We used a multimeter and a calibrated microphone (omnimic) to ensure they were level matched. Listening volumes were typical volume listening range ---- not too loud --- probably only a couple watts tops at those levels. The Lepai was perfectly identical until you exceeded it's power output. That test, and subsequent tests were we lined up about 8 different amps with quick switching and not one of about 15 people could tell the difference in blind testing --- it told me all I needed to know.
Yes you were unable to discern a difference using high efficient speakers. There are many factors that could also be affecting this such as: room acoustics, source material, listening fatigue, etc. But, thanks for sharing your results. Most amplifier do sound similar if not overdriven and also driving a relatively easy load like a Klipsch speaker.
Well, the Lepai T is sort of amazing, that's the little secret there.
Ask any pro audio person and they will tell you the hi-fi world is an absolute load of bullshit.
Back around 1986, Stereo Review proved that NO ONE could tell the difference between a Pioneer receiver and a $30K Mark Levinson, so long as the amp was not strained. Carver proved NO ONE could tell the difference between his solid state "L" mod and a conrand johnson, or TFM and a Mark Levinson. And then, there is a guy in New York that ran an ongoing $10,000 challenge if anyone can hear the difference...no one won.
Scott Lowell If you want the best sound buy a cheap NAD amp and some reasonable speakers. If it doesn't sound good change the room until it does.
This reminded me when back in the day Bob Carver tweaked different amps in his line up to "sound" like much more expensive amps from various manufacturers. I always had trouble hearing differences in power amps, aside from current and "balls", but having a good pre amp was key...
I put a comment with a link to the original Carver Challenge I lived through it. He did some amazing things with his designs. He did that to make a point, that a good amplifier didn't have to cost you several paychecks to afford
He said that "people who believe that all amplifiers sound alike are those that think that speakers all sound alike". Bullcrap. Amps are different from speakers. Speakers are mechanical devices.
He also includes no data with his opinion.
Plus his support for amp differences is based on pushing amps past their limits - that has never been part of the discussion.
Unlike amps, which produce an amplified electrical signal, speakers actually produce sound.
" Some people believe all speakers sound alike", that's the first time I've ever heard that! I've always heard an amp, is an amp, is an amp all my life, which is true insofar as lab test measurement's are concerned but, untrue when comparing a tube amp to a SS amp, hybrid amp etc, in actual listening test's. IMHO, only similar technologies and applications sound the same, especially so when comparing amps and stereo cartridge's.
,
All their videos are almost crap, just waste of time
To be fair , behavior near clipping is very important to me. , tubes dont hard clip but can sound nasty when overdriven.
Lower power amps can have simpler signal paths and fewer active devices DOES reduce distortion , but then at limit behavior IS then part of the convo. Obviously an set amp is different and second vs 1st order distortion is a very valid in measurable distinction and difference between amps, but when I hear people say amps are different and then he ran engineer respond on how they are not my response is different amps deliver different performances under different loads and an amplifier that is perfectly suited to a 6 ohm load may see an entirely different load when the average consumer buys a speaker, this difference in impedance matching that doesn't happen on the bench does happen in the real world and in my opinion not only is the reason people think amps sound different but is actually valid since people buy speakers because they like the way they sound not because they work properly with their amp, which is another massive difference, between a amp that is designed exceptionally well that can double its load into a halved impedance versus whatever characteristics one that absolutely cannot do this might have, these are all valid. ..As is its Square wave rise Time Performance slew factor and damping which people who work in the studio may consider a given with their high-powered amps with massivehigh damping Factor and power. but in the real world consumer grade equipment these predisposed Givens are not at all at given and therefore in the real world amp performance and tgerefore sound does vary a lot and in a way just tends to not in the laboratory. It's easy to imagine a perfectly matched load all sounding the same and dismiss these crazy nuts Who Would mix and match but that's what happens and sometimes these mismatches actually tend to suit a certain speakers shortcomings and in the real world it can lead to what we call Synergy in a way that these measurements would not indicate unless you're talking about a microphone in front of the speaker
I upgraded my 25yr. old Denon Integrated amp to a Arcam Integrated amp. My fairly modest system revealed a noticeable difference within seconds of playing my first disc. My old turntable revealed an even bigger gain in quality. The new amps' built-in phono stage showing improvement as well. Gear matters. Not all of us have the same capacity to hear and appreciate better sound reproduction. Just as we are not equal in our ability to paint, draw or bowl, hit a ball, directions etc.
Long term listening will reveal differences that instant (blind or not blind) switching will not. This is often why equipment sounds okay on first audition but when you get it home and listen for a while you pick up on the subtle distortion, colorations you missed at the start. Then further listening only causes more listening fatigue.
excellent point and VERY true!
So true. The mechanics behind this is the reason it's so hard to prove. From either side of the point.
Actually, it's you being inexperienced and your ears are not trained and then you can't pick out stuff in blind testing. It's like people who can't hear differences between acoustic instruments.
But after years you can insta-judge.
I find it aggravating when seasoned listeners fail to point that out. When you are new into audiophilia, you are lost. You have no clue what to listen for.
My recommendation: start with headphones. Get an ODAC+O2. Get an assortment of phones, possibly used, and start listening. Use your smartphone as alternate source to listen to something that might sound worse or not than your stack. Before you can specify in clear terms what you hear, what it means and where your perception comes from speaker-fi will rob you blank.
And be aware that room-acoustics are a huge deal which don't exist with head-fi.
I wish you a musical and safe journey, guard your wallet well. And when in doubt, get a pair of Neumann monitors ;-)
I've heard many amps over the years, mostly when I used to sell high end audio but also in my own home. I just replaced an Adcom GFA 555 ll with a Sonic Frontiers SFS-80 tube amp and they sound completely different. There's no shock there though, one is SS and the other tube. However, before I bought the SFS 80, I also tried a Levinson ML3 and a Conrad Johnson MF 2500. I tried them both on KEF 107's and Martin Logan CLS-II's. There were small differences between the SS amps on both speakers, not huge differences but subtleties in separation, image depth, bass extension/weight and even "sweetness" of voices in the mids. The tube amp was a complete mismatch with the CLS's though, output impedence of the amp is too high and the speakers are notorious for drops in resistance and high frequencies. But, none of the SS amps came close to the clarity and accuracy of the tube amp with the 107's. No surprise there. Here's an interesting read about a challenge given to Bob Carver: www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge#KdzuPwqpmkxeQjBS.97
Been through a few this year, and they all have a different sound, from dry to harsh. I had roughly a $4000 budget to purchase a new 2 channel amp. I am using the KLH Model 5's for speakers. They like juice, the more the better. Now, I use the Denafrips Athena preamp, and it is ZERO gain. It sounds incredible. I was looking at ATI and or Parasound... I wound up with the Emotiva XPA-DR2. This is a hidden gem of an amp, so few even know it exists. Very musical, blacker than black, instrument separation, just incredible. Bass is fast and clean, and the amplifier is very neutral, and not dry in the least and no harshness. Just an honest amp that delivers. Best part, I saved $2000! If you are looking for a new amplifier to drive hard to drive speakers, or a pair of bookshelves, give the XPA-DR2 serious consideration. Emotiva has a 30 day auditioning period. Mine is staying.
I own 3 carver M 1.0ts, 2 stock 1 MKII
The following Yammies:
1 mx800
1 m-80
2 m-70s
1 m-60
1 cp2000
And a Pioneer A88-X
Each series has its distinct tone.
Right now I'm diggin' the A88-X with 40 year old caps and all.
Just an elegant tone.
I believe it does makes a difference. How much different, will be effected by several factors like all the ones mentioned in Gene's article. I'm not sure if it got mentioned and I missed it, but also the type of receiver/amp a person upgrades to will have an effect on how different the sound will be. Assuming were using a decent set of speakers, the difference between two receivers from the same brand, will be a lot closer than one from another brand. Or the difference in watts between different receiver/amp at higher listening levels. I've had Philharmonic BMR's (Salk version) since 2016 and have listened to them many hours a day, every day, for 6+ years. I have done a TON of tinkering with speaker placement and acoustic panel placement. I've become very familiar with their sound characteristics. I used a Denon S510bt (70w) from 2017-2020 and upgraded to a Marantz SR5014 (100w). I did not do any blind tests, but I limited my expectations to mitigate any possible placebo. The difference was indeed noticeable, all the way across the frequency spectrum. The difference in the bass was even more noticeable, their was beneficial tightness in the bass, similar to the effect bass traps were having in my room. It is a taboo topic for some people, but I believe it's one that should be talked about. Thanks for keeping the discussion going here and on your forum.
I am running a 7.2.2 Klipsch Reference Premiere speaker setup using a Denon AVR-X4300H A/V receiver. The AVR-X4300H is rated at 125w/ch 2ch driven 20hz-20khz. I added an inexpensive Russound A2100 2ch amp rated at 100w/ch to drive the mains. I also offloaded everything below 100hz from the LCR to allow the 400/880w amps in my subs to handle that power. Adding the external amp has made a huge difference when I am playing music or movies at close to reference levels (0db). I noticed a lot more punch in my mains with clearly more dynamic headroom. I was actually pleasantly surprised that it made so much difference. This leaves the Denon to have all the power it needs to drive the rest of the speakers and to also not push the Denon so hard so as to get really hot, which it would do when I did this using just the Denon at high volume levels. I figure less stress on my expensive AVR is a good thing.
I also needed to add the external amp because while the Denon can
process 11.2 channels it only has enough amps for a 9.2 setup. I plan
on adding two more Atmos speakers to fill out my Music Home Theater
room.
I was a little wary of getting only a 100w/ch amp, but I did the math on the AVR and the speakers and a solid 100w performer seemed enough, and this proved to be so, but every once on a blue moon the Russound amp cuts off for a split second on the right channel. This is only happening with some very dynamic music at 0db. It seems I am right against the edge of the power limit at times.
I am considering switching to an Emotiva 150w/ch A-300 BasX, but I am unsure if I would see any improvement except for the rare cutting out. Alternately, I am looking at a 250w/ch Hypex based 2ch amp to save on energy over the Emotiva.
Every setup I used was always calibrated carefully using the Denon's built-in Audyssey MultEQ XT32. I also set the gain on the Russound to about 80% or about the two-o-clock position. I'm not sure if this is the correct setting and I've been unable to find much info on that.
Does anyone think upgrading the external amp would make much difference in sound quality. I am already very happy with it now, but the cost of another amp is not much to add. The mains can handle 150w continuous BTW and they are very efficient at 98db @ 2.83v / 1m.
ArJuna22 Did you ever change out the power amplifier for an Emotiva A -300? I have a 2019 Denon X3600h running an 7.2.4 system and I am looking at the A-300 and Crown XLS 1502. Both different class amplifiers and I want to make the most economical and sound wise choice. Also, how are you “off load everything below 100 hz from the LCR”? Is this thru the crossover setting for the remaining speakers? Thanks for any advice as I am starting to learn about crossover, bass management and speaker settings. Cheers
@@kevins.1752 Yes, I got a refund from Russound and got the Emotiva BAS-X A-300. Best decision I could have made. The Emotiva is absolutely sublime and powerful. I set the crossover cutoff on the Denon by setting all my speakers to "small", even the powerful Klipsch RP-280F's. LCR was indicating Left-Center-Right, or basically the mains and center speaker. I actually changed this down to 80hz crossover later as i found it sounded great. I set the crossover for each speaker in the Denon to 80hz for most of my speakers and let the subwoofers handle the low end load. This gives the Emotiva and Denon tons of headroom with all the reserve power they have not having to Drive the power hungry low frequencies. I also have Klipsch RP-140Sa and RP-500SA Atmos speakers and it is important to set their crossovers to 150hz, or else you might blow one with too much power. Setting the crossover any lower on these Atmos speaker would be a risk especially if you tend to use multi-channel stereo (which I never do). Besides this is what Klipsch recommends, 150hz crossover for these Atmos speakers. For the Rears and surrounds I set crossovers at 60hz, but that was just my preference.
The Emotiva driving the mains sounds much better than the Denon alone or the Denon with the Russound. You will not be disappointed with the Emotiva. The class A/B Emotiva has great sound and improves every aspect you could mention. I warn you, the Emotiva is a beast and will impress you. I also want to give props to Russound who were very gracious in allowing me to return the A2100 quite some time after i bought it. It just never was a good match for the Denon AVR-X4300H. Now I can blast the house with extremely loud sound and my Denon barely gets warm. Before it used to get very hot if I cranked it up. Offloading the mains to a good external amp solves a number of issues. I owned the Denon AVR-X3300W for a year before I upgraded to the X4300H. I am sue the Emotiva would be a great match for your X3600H. Good luck! I'm happy to answer any other questions, though I must warn I do not check RUclips often, but I will try to over the next few days for you.
Edited: The Crown is basically the same as the Russound. I would not waste my money on it, especially when you can get the Emotiva for $400, which is worth every penny and much more. I can assure you that you will be very happy with the Emotiva. Also, the Russound had a ground loop hum when you connected the Denon and Russound 12v trigger (for auto on/off ) and that drove me nuts. Crutchfield replicated the issue and Russound had no solution.
You probably know this, but make sure to rerun Audyssey after you make the upgrade/change.
ArJuna22 Thanks for all the information. I am debating between the Emotiva A-300 Class AB and a Crown XLS 1502 Class D and (300 WPC x 2). I have read plenty and watched several YT videos about Class D and AB amplifiers. Did you consider or would you consider a Class D amplifier instead of the Emotiva?
Mr Dice I looked quite a bit at the Crown XLS 1502. In talking with the great folks at Crutchfield and after much other online research it became clear to me the Crown was really no different than the Russound A2100 I had. Both the Russound and the Crown are really designed as PA amps and not audiophile amps. The Emotiva has a much better distortion spec at rated power than either of the two class D amps. The Russound also had a hiss (separate from the hum I mentioned earlier) that was very annoying if you were within 4-5 feet of the mains which were driven by it. I have read the Crown has the same issue. I am telling you the biggest difference is when you crank the volume up. The Russound sounded very good and had loads of headroom, but when I switched to the Emotiva it had all that, but sounded much cleaner. It simply allowed the music to shine through without imposing on it like the Russound did. It just sounded cleaner. I've read similar accounts of the Crown 1502, which really was my only other choice I was considering. The class A/B Emotiva is in another class entirely IMO. It also weighs about 3.5x what the Crown weighs and is built like a tank with that massive toroidal coil in the center. The Emotiva has one fifth the THD at rated power and the SNR is 120db as opposed to the Crown 1502's 103db. The Emotiva is just such a pleasure and after experiencing both for a considerable time each I say there is no contest. The extra power of the Crown is of little value, especially because it drives it does very little for your output level except the distortion level will increase considerably and audibly IMO. Now I play only high end audio sources. I don''t play MP3 files, so I may be a bit more picky.
I am running 7.2.4 ALL Klipsch Reference Premier speakers and I vote Emotiva hands down. The sound was good with the Russound, but most clearly better with the Emotiva. I run all my 2.0 audio in stereo mode, so I am usually listening to music with just the mains and the two subs, so the difference is clearly in these external amps to the Denon. I am sure you will likely enjoy whatever you choose. If somehow you can manage giving each a try I would make the effort to do so. Unfortunately, Crutchfield does not sell the Emotiva or you could get both and return one. Maybe you can get Emotiva to find a nearby loaner you could try for a day. Worth a try. I can't imagine finding a better 300w amp than the Emotiva BasX A300 at even twice the price. One last note. The Russound A2100 used to get hot at reference levels even with the gain set down to about 80%. The Emotiva barely gets warm and it has no gain controls BTW, but that doesn't matter because your x3600H will set all that properly for you. I would bet money that if you had the chance to hear both options you would most certainly choose the Emotiva. You have such an awesome AVR and I've come to the conclusion that these PA type class D lightweight amps won't give you what the superbly built and hefty Emotiva will. I wish you all the best.
@@kevins.1752 I just found this and thought you would find it of interest. it's a review on Amazon of the Emotiva BasX A300.
Joseph Reynolds
VINE VOICE
5.0 out of 5 stars Wide open beautiful sound
Reviewed in the United States on August 14, 2018
Style: 5-ChannelConfiguration: ReceiverVerified Purchase
Wow I went from a denon receiver to this amp and emotiva pt100 preamp. I was blown away but I thought that the preamp was producing all that good sound and so I bought a crown amp with a little more watts to replace this amp. It made sense to me, I had the killer preamp now the crown with more watts will sound even better. Well, I was so wrong. Apparently it's this amp that's producing that great sound because the pt100 with crown amp sounded terrible. I listened to the crown for maybe 3 days just because I've been too busy and I couldn't be happier now that I swapped them back. BTW I'm powering klipsch rf3 floorstanders and I have them biamped for about 160 watts per speaker. They sound Incredible.
I can think of one con and that's, it's too big to fit into my audio rack, too deep by about 2 inches.
www.amazon.com/Emotiva-Audio-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/product-reviews/B01IQWAXGE/ref=cm_cr_unknown?reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=five_star&pageNumber=1
I enjoyed an Arcam amplifier years ago and was quite taken back with it, the salesman said it was probably not only due to good components, but significantly had a very short signal path, which he posited influenced the sound.
Bob Carver proved that he could replicate the sound of any Amp by playing with resistors. He said that if you wire a 1.5 ohm resistor on the red wire to your speakers, you can achieve about 85% of of what a tube amp would sound like. That's using a solid state amp of course. He incorporated that feature in his original Sunfire amps with the current and voltage source terminals.
+Joe Meatball
Carver made some really overpriced garbage.
that would most definitely be a neat trick!!!
Carver has recanted some of that as a stunt. Today he makes tube amps!
Back in the 1970s I had a Marantz Model 15 dual monoblock amplifier attached to Acoustic Research AR-3a speakers. These speakers are rated at 4 ohms. This impedance actually drops lower to as low as 3 ohms depending on how the mid range and tweeter level controls are set. The "overload" lights were constantly showing on the amplifier. I replaced the Amp with a Marantz Model 250 which solved the problem.
There can definitely be differences. Frequency response variations, noise (hum/buzz/hiss), output impedance differences, differences in the way they handle differing loads, age and much more. Its not to say that the differences will be astronomical but they are there and with a bit of listening, one would notice the differences especially if the loudspeaker system is one which is fairly decent.
I've had/have these amps and they all sound slightly different:
Soundcraftsmen PM860
SAE P50
Threshold SA3
Crown Comtech 210
Crown XLS 1500
Nikko Alpha 230
ART SLA1
Behringer EP4000
Behringer EP1500
Yorkville SR300
you guys have great videos about audio and video. However, the audio quality of your videos are not very good. You could improve the sound by using wireless label microphones for each of you.
Love the content.
Working on that for the next batch of videos that will go live at the end of May, or early June.
I suggest that neck (label) microphones that are not radio but are via cable is the most safest system. Radio neck mics are not necessary for seated speakers and only increase the possibility of loosing the signal. Wire is best.
APPJ makes some very affordable, Class A tubed amps that sound GREAT with higher efficiency speakers! I just got an APPJ 1501A tubed amp that sounds very different than my high end solid state amps (Bryston, Onkyo 508, McIntosh MC162)! I'm very impressed!
I have done a few instant A/B tests using an 'amplifier comparator' 10 years ago that I purchased on eBay to answer this question myself. My conclusion is there were some subtle differences at normal listening level but not a big deal, so small that I honestly cannot tell which ones better or worse. Some even sounded the same to my ears. However, if you turn the volume up to near clipping level, then you start to tell differences easier. High quality ones still will sound clean at high output volumes, but lower quality ones would sound 'blurred' or noisy. Having said that, I only had a few amps at that time to compare, and I did not specifically compared amps with same rms output power so that could have made the difference too. I also did not have true 'high end' amps at that time but mostly Japanese brands like pioneer, denon, marantz etc, which probably explains why they sounded very similar too.
I love class d amps especially that i have always used a mixer in all setups throughout life, that said, a mixer adds class to any amplifier.. As said before, no need for tone tests, the older you are the better judgement(years of listening to different systems, a large array at that) and i stand by that..
A good way to test if you need a power amp is to look at the rated power output of your Receiver's power supply and use a power meter to see if it's approaching the limit. For example, my Onkyo 838 is rated to 720w. If I see it approaching that I should seek external amplification.
You know you are caught up on your rent when you have time to split hairs, about the best of the best. If your system sounds good, than it sounds good. If it sounds bad, than you need to turn it down a bit. And if that don't work, upgrade.
Quick question. If I am starting out with just a basic setup consisting of a receiver, a couple of bookshelf speakers and a powered subwoofer, what would be the best place to start for upgrading? I don't have the cash to do everything at once, but want to make incremental upgrades, working towards an end goal of a decent two channel setup that doesn't break the bank.
An amplifier should amplify the input perfectly and linearly. An amplifier's power supply should be adequate to drive any load within the amplifier's specification. An amplifier should have SNR that rejects noise to the point that no one can hear it. If all amplifiers followed this, all amplifiers would sound the same.
I've heard amplifiers and speakers giving a different FR at different volumes. Speakers are usually more guilty of this, but I have heard some amplifiers do the same. My speakers and amplifiers can be listened to at levels so low, I can enjoy music at 3 am without disturbing my light-sleeping wife. They can also be listened to loud enough to make the neighbourhood dogs bark. FR is linearly amplified from low to high levels. That's how it should be.
@@joescott2720 Hi Joe Scott. That's a difficult question. A better amp than?
Thanks guys for another informative video. Keep up the good work!! It is really nice to have a source for unbiased opinions based on actual facts.
I had a 1969 valve amplifier 100Watts,oh my god it sounded incredible,massive power,picked up sounds the modern ampl transistor missed out, had a warmth to it that the transistor amplifier didn't have, that something else.
So for me not all amplifiers sound the same,valve sounds much,much better
SP330Y that's called distortion. not warmth. just because you like that doesn't mean it's a good think. you're actually messing with the sound which is bad.
Use what you have for the time being but always stand there talking about it does make a lot of sense
Your initial statement that people who think all amps sound the same are the people who think all speakers sound the same. demeans your argument. Differences in speakers are much more apparent than differences between amps.
Amp needs my be different because impedance and power needs and the like, but in general it's far harder to distinguish amp differences. To me. spending on better speakers takes precedence over more money into an amp.
Agree!
i want to recommend a little experiment that might surprise you - take a good amplifier like a Krell KSA 50 or something and attach it to some crappy small box loudspeakers you got at a yard sale for $20. Now get some 1970s or 80s era Sanyo (or similar amplfier) and hook it up to ANY loudspeaker you want - COST NO OBJECT - then get back to me and tell me WHICH sounds better
i think you might be changing your tune in a hurry after that.
why don't stereo amplifiers have bass controls in relation to the addition of a subwoofer? I'm torn because I want the best sound possible but from my understanding most stereo receivers will send full range to the speakers DESPITE having a sub connected.
This is a bit of a loaded question. If you have an easy to drive, say 8 ohm speaker with 95db sensitivity, then yes, most amps will sound very similar because its power requirements have been met. On the other hand, if you have a 4 ohm 85 db set of electrostatics like my old Martin Logans, then they may have a bit of trouble with an underpowered AVR. A lot of 'hi-fi' speakers are hard to drive, the most famous being Magnepans which have low sensitivity and impedance dips to about 2 ohms. Of course you're not going to get the best performance from a cheap receiver. Does that mean you need to drop several grand on amplification? No. Once you have met the requirements for properly driving the speaker, the difference between amps is minimal. So 'yes and no' is a perfectly fair answer, though people do pay way, way too much on amps in relation to the rest of their system.
Fricky Fricky Fresh Enterprises International Your comment is why Amos have different power options. It isn't going to sound different as long as the amp is meant to function at the testing load and power rating.
Agreed.
I don't see a question in your post, but I do see a statement. I would disagree with it. Having enough power to drive a speaker does not make all amps sound the same. They will sound just as different as in any other situation. If you have access to a variety of equipment, its very easy to here this for yourself.
Just to give an example, I have a small pair of Wilsons that are very easy to drive. 95 or 96db. They can be easily driven by a pair of 15watt SET's. To avoid any confusion, I'll only talk about the solid state amps I have at the house, and leave my tube amps out of it. I have a Rowland 112 (150wattsx2), an Ayre V-5 (150x2), a McCormack DNA-125 (125x2), and a Krell KAV250a (250x2).
All of the above amps are overkill for the Wilsons, so power is no issue whatsoever. If you swap those 4 amps out, you have 4 completely different sounding systems. Anyone can hear the difference, even people with no experience in audio. Keep in mind, though, that the rest of the components in the system are very revealing. If you don't install the amps in systems that have the type of resolution needed to bring out these differences, the results will be different.
Speakers make the most difference in a system.
45rpm I think so as well.
+45rpm
Well yeah, but really good speakers will just expose a cheap amp even more.
+45rpm
Well yeah, but really good speakers will just expose a cheap amp even more. The preamp is really a big key as well.
+Mitt Zombie You're right.
+45rpm It all matters but if you use a $300 cd player in a system with $100,000.00 speakers those speakers can only sound as good as that cd player.
I hate that I like this. I
´v been watching 8 of these nerds clips in a row now.
Carl Svensson
How well do traditional measurements correlate to what we hear? Are harmonic and intermodulation distortions the only distortions? Or are there other distortion mechanisms we haven't as yet quantified? And under what conditions are amps tested? Mostly it's under static conditions with continuous sign waves. Recorded music isn't like that, it's dynamic, spiced with transients and cascading harmonics imposing a whole new set of demands unlike simple sign waves. In the 70s techs and engineers believed that everything they knew about amp distortions was complete. Until Matti Otala came along and discovered "transient Intermodulation distortion".
"If an amplifier measures good but sounds bad we are measuring the wrong thing." ~ John Atkinson
Nice job .....you guys nailed it.....I've owned too many amps over 40 years to argue with the simple fact that the interaction with speakers is the tell tale sign ...you either have the correct amount of juice or you don't simple....the speaker is the only way to truly tell whether the amp is doing the job.....however preamps can have a lot to do with that "sound difference" some perceive....
Easy on the "double down on power as resistance drops" comments. Check out the old Orion 225 HCCA (High Current Competition Amplifier). While designed for automotive audio this amplifier is 1/4 ohm stable and doubles its output with each cut in resistance. I agree that most do not do this, but I'm sure there are many that do. CROWN has some I know. Love the videos, keep it up!
The factors that separate the audible qualities of amps are a) max power output and b) ability to pump that power into low impedances. More powerful amps can sound louder--a clear difference. Ability to produce current into low impedances matters only for speakers that present low impedances. Other than that, even golden ears cannot distinguish high end megabuck from pop market cheap amps. We know all of this via measurement, no need for blind testing, though the testing confirms people can't hear a difference in typical electronics properly performing within their operating parameters.
I love huge class a/b amplifiers.
Always found big power sounds better with high damping factor.
3600 wrms on 4 18" JBL drivers ... clean hair moving bass.
My ears tell me the same-the larger the damping factor, the cleaner and more accurate the bass response.
lol you guys need to open in school in Florida, I Google like every other word still after almost a year of watching your videos. re-watch, take notes, listen, and have interest, the 4 steps to learning from the professionals.
dear man in the red t-shirt,
your arms are huge
sincerely,
the internet
arms only
Bob Sum .. Sounds like your a jealous bitch. Bet your a fat slob
His arms make me believe it's better not to argue with him about whether all amplifiers sound the same.
I always appreciate honesty . . . appreciate your videos. As far as amps sounding different . . . to me there are so many elements in the equation that cannot be measured: the individual's hearing capability can by a technician, but how many amplifier manufacturers or speaker manufacturers are going to measure everybody's hearing to take into consideration for their product's production? There is also in the equation the amount of time a listener has trained their ears to what real music sounds like; the bias preference some listeners have, i.e. bass. Some may prefer overly exaggerated bass and have completely no sensitivity to bass resonance or boom that would drive well-trained ears crazy to distraction. There is going to be always that subjective component where no one is going to win an argument, because someone who has it in their head that their amp(s) or speakers sound the best -- are going to argue they sound the best no matter if the performer on the recording came in and said it sounded terrible. People like what they like.
Now some people can be trained to listen to live music and then compare IF they are able to maintain a memory as to what the live music sounded like in the first place. I think most can recognize distortion, shrillness, or perhaps overly emphasized chest voice in the lower midrange; however, it doesn't mean that everyone will accept that as being bad. Music like art is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder, and no one is going to come out with a definite product nor answer that is going to wind up without some detractor saying you don't know what you are talking about . . . but to those who wish to bang their heads against a brick wall to prove the point, when you could be enjoying what you do enjoy -- more power to you.
One thing that almost never gets said in discussions like this is that not all listeners are the same.
+carlos oliveira Ahhhhh, the old "if you can't hear a difference, you must not be experienced enough" trick. Whoops, meant to say the old "you're too POOR to know what good sound really sounds like" trick. :D
+ayokay123 This is total nonsens to think that one must posses excellent speakers and amplifiers to know if it's close close to ideal. Because ideal sound surrounds us every day and we all hear it every day of our life. Instruments are not often experience. and have infinity of vibrations. In judgement we have no chance to say if it is good. It has nothing to do with price.
jesaliga The listener is irrelevant if the sound is literally the same. Put it to a listening mic and it will be the same. Why even add an ear if you could show the result?
My friend knows and cares virtually nothing about sound, but a while back I got a couple/pair of monoblock amps even though I had a pretty good receiver, but after hooking up my amps to my preamp even he said he could tell the difference, he said it was clearer with better separation. I agreed. It's really too bad that one of my amps burned out, literally caught on fire. : (
+carlos oliveira It was a Monarchy Audio SM70-Pro. It's really unfortunate because I thought it was really good while it worked. It was my fault though, I had used it for probably a year plus without issue, but because I had it on my carpeted floor I don't know if it got enough ventilation, thankfully the flame came out the top of the amp and the carpet itself didn't catch on fire. I was actually concerned about this happening, but didn't think there would be a problem because there are "feet," and some separation from the carpet, and as I said, I had used it for some time without issue. Also, I didn't put it on my shelf because of the weight and shape with the heatsink. It's truly unfortunate because I bought it used, but still paid a good amount, and I imagine repairs would cost quite a bit, especially including shipping costs from where I live.
+james hunt Whoa, thanks for your interest.
I did write a pretty detailed email to the company a few months ago explaining exactly what happened, but unfortunately I received no response at all.
This was actually strange and surprising to me because I had spoken with Mr. Poon himself many years ago before I actually bought the amplifiers. He did seem like a very nice person, and I'm not implying that he isn't by the way.
I'm not even looking for a free repair or replacement, just a reasonable price to do the repair, maybe two or three hundred bucks, but again, I'm surprised that they didn't respond to my email at all. I suppose I could resend it.
As for the damage, its not really visible, at least I cannot see anything, I'm almost tempted to start it up again, but I think I know better than to do that, I remember vividly what happened, it was pretty scary seeing that flame coming out the top of the amp. There's a vent on the top of the amp.
I did buy them off of eBay, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, and I don't think they were altered in any way. Like I said, they worked great for over a year.
I do know that one amp can work in stereo mode(and it should have sufficient power to drive my bookshelf speakers), but I've actually moderately downgraded my system(got an integrated Marantz amp instead of separates) and don't use the amps at all anymore. Well, I actually started the good one up to power a new speaker(Polk Audio LSiM 703) that I recently bought, but I'm going to return the speaker, it's sorely disappointing to me after all the great reviews I read on Amazon.
I was pretty surprised when it caught on fire, my carpet is actually very short, short fibers which are pretty tight and hard. As I said, I was concerned, but thought the odds that something would happen were pretty low, I thought there was sufficient airflow around the amp.
I'm an amateur who knows nothing.
You guy's are great. Informative, as always.
Just keep in mind that what you get from them is opinion. They are always right when I agree with them and always wrong when I don't:-)
I was wondering what became of Hans and Franz. PUMP YOU UP!
+jimi hendrix Oh man, yes.They pump up the amp,then you.
Enough with the " Droids" already.
Jimi that’s hilarious.
At first i thought these guys were the delivery and set up crew.
They look like they could pick up a pair of the original Polk SDA’s ,one under each arm. 😂
What's your opinion on the old Sony ES series Amps? I've got one and love it, very transparent and accurate with decent reference monitors and a sub.
I love Audio, affordability, Pioneer VSX 523K can you tell me what your ideals are on this??? also Speaker Size??? Should anyone use a Home Theater in a Box or use component???
Also receivers use different DAC's which does huge difference to the sound. Not neccessarily the quality but one frequency might sound like this through one dac and like that on another one. One might deliver full power all the way down and another might just do -10dB to anything below x hz
I used to work in a high-end stereo store and I could tell you what an amp will sound like by looking at the parts it used.
+shaolin95 As long as there was nothing coloring the sound I was able to focus on the sound qualities of the amps and pick them out every time.
+Jay Veyron Is this an honest question?
I once heard an Audio Research preamp and a Electrocompaniet amp drive a pair of soundesign speakers and you could hear the good qualities of the amp and preamp through those cheap speakers. So its not a simple question of ohms or price. Its about what you can afford and what works well together.
+Anders Hammer As you said : what works together. The moment speakers is connected to amplifier it makes a new construction which is not posible to recognize what is the reason of speaker and what is the reason of amplifier..Switching the same speaker to another amplifier does not bring answer because that speaker interfers with that amplifier. So the parts used have nothing to do.
I love how many people claim to hear the differences and make some rational reason up as to why they are superior. Prove it. Take the test and win or you are just another wannabe
Anders Hammer They are not saying any amo on any speaker will sound the same. Any amp that is operating within its drained specs ...this removes the arguments for impedance or power needs or anything your chosen speakers may need.
Nice talking. May be I can add something. The confuse in such discussion is that simplifying we say "amplifier sounds" And that's..... Amplifier cannot sound without speaker. Only transformer a little:). So we are talking about amplifier/speaker sets. Already mess ;).
Then You mentioned abut interaction and that is in my experience main clou. Speaker interacts with amplifier not only by simple loading it but for speakers using LC crossovers amplifier is getting shifted in phase feedback voltage. At crossover point speaker impedance is usually up and current shifted in phase. And that is the reason why results may be so different then expected.
If we compare one-driver box with two different amplifiers then differences between amplifiers shall by slight comparing to ex. three way. .
If we use tube amplifier having less feedback then this effect will be even less.
Actually I use "almost" one way wide-range and differences between my Luxman, Onkyo and tube Pioneer are hard to notice. Surely they are - Onkyo has FET output transistors so feedback is probably less then Luxman, Luxman ...silicon but beta circuit whatever it means :) and tube is tube with transformer and trebles bending at edge. With multi-way speaker changes are shouting and results change - tube for them is best. For one way Onkyo seems more flat.
I see You put big attention to power. Honestly with used by me modern speakers and at 90 dB a power in my speakers hardly reached 1 W. Actual speakers are 2-3 times more effective. My 2x 7 Watts tube amplifier is still not tested for power :) You can listen to it in my video named "Ultimate Reality Speaker ..." Rgds.
The biggest difference I've found in Amps are Tube amps vs solid state. Both have pro's and con's but I do prefer tube over solid state.
I've watched a few of your videos now and I do appreciate what you guys are doing you explain things well. However what you are showing or things that a lot of your viewers I'm sure cannot even come close to affording. It would be nice to see a mid-range AV receiver setup with an explanation on how to get it sounding to its fullest potential. In maybe the 15 to $1,800 range. I would love to invite you guys over to give me some pointers I'll buy the beer I believe you guys are in my area. Feel free to make a video out of it
I have an Onkyo rz820
I've been told it's a bright receiver?
In your opinion audioholics
Would a power amp help with counteracting the brightness , so improving the sound quality and adding a bit more power?
Or would it make sense to buy a preamp?
It would make more sense to first address your room acoustics and speaker positioning first.
Need a forum argument settled. Does the processor or the amp give a brand it’s signature sound? Marantz is the brand we’re specifically discussing.
Great video, have you tested a Denon 2801 and 1602. I find both of these receivers very musical. Much more than another brand I have
How do pro-style amplifiers (like the Crown XLS series) measure in a home environment? Are there risks with running them with well-engineered consumer-grade speakers with a decent enough pre/pro?
They don't measure as well as some very expensive products. Still my Crown sound very good on my LRS and Philharmonic Sound Monitors. I would think there are better sounding power amps out there buy not at the price of the Very modestly priced Crown for the bucks. I am unable to clip this amp. My ears give up well before clipping! (95 -100 peak on my cheap SPL meter! Very loud and painfully loud to me!)
I’m kind a new to the home theater stuff but I can personally tell you from lots of experience with car audio amps can sound different now it might not be miles apart but you can have better sounding and were sounding amp’s I’ve experienced it
im surprised people use bass as a determination to a good amp! i prefer detailed and flat.. just picked up a yamaha A-S801 not quite detailed but im loving the sound!
Thank you for a great show!
Would you say that different amplifiers sounds more "detailed" or "warm" as often described in product details?I can understand that some amplifiers has more noise and based on the ohm discussion that there could be a difference in base management.
I would say that from a scientific/engineering perspective... All amplifiers should sound identical. We know this is not true in reality. But an amps job is to amplify an audio signal without coloring the sound (frequency), or adding noise/distortion. Just take an audio signal and amplify it. The reasons amps don't sound the same is because they are out of specification and don't accurately amplify the signal without changing the above attributes. This can be caused a number of things by poor design, quality issues, cost cutting, interference, power supply designs, ect. Because of superior design, lower priced amps can perform as well or better than more expensive amps and well designed higher price amps can out perform lower priced units. When I hear people go on and on about how much clearer or more airy is one amp over the other when the amps are similarly priced and speced, I think to myself, either one of the amps is out of spec, or the individual if put to a double blind test would not be able to distinguish between the two amps. I usually go with the latter, knowing that the former is possible as in the case of the Panasonic. I would say in amps over 500 dollars they sound more the same than they do different and most people in a double blind test would not be able to tell the differences. I don't believe in golden ear, that someone is genetically superman with superman hearing, but I do believe that most people cannot tell the difference between things unless they are trained. MP3s for example, there are some sound engineers that can listen to old mp3 compressed files and tell you which compression engine was used although now days it is not possible to do this anymore But average person does not know how to listen for these differences. This may be the case in amplifiers as well but I assert that there are much less differences when compared to an mp3 file that compresses sound and throws data away. I will say in your article you mention putting an older tube amp against a modern amp in a double blind test and people could not tell the difference. I would probably say that a person should choose an amp based on what they hear but my hifi shops are out to steal and deceive people. They will increase the sound volume just a tad on the amp they are trying to sell, the person will hear the difference and generally choose the loud amp. So choosing an amp is more difficult than it should be, but if good specs and not too inexpensive, you probably wont go wrong.. IMHO
Carl
I can see you like long paragraphs... 🤔
(You have humble opinions, but you are not humble with paragraphs.)
Single ended triode amplifiers are my favorite because they are so easy to design you can build them yourself the way you want and you can overcome their limited output power by using radio station transmitting tubes. Their simplicity makes them very easy to maintain and to repair in the unlikely event they go bad. However, I refuse to and I request that everybody ridicule any fundamentalism which insists on single ended, push-pull, or solid state vs tubes. I have heard almost all designs sound wonderful.
Hi guys, great video. I want to upgrade my sound system and need your help. I have a budget of up to $2k and wonder if I should spend it on the best loudspeakers I can get, and in a year buy the best amplifier I can get under $1k. Suggestions?
How should amplifiers sound? Source equipment has its imperfection and so does the listening environment has its impact on the total aural experience. For instance, in-ear earplugs are designed not with a linear response electronically but with a compensation for the audio characteristics of the ear channel which can vary from person to person. Should amplifiers have, at least, some compensation for these imperfection in the source and the listening environment?
So I am relatively new or whatever to this whole hifi thing. With solid state amps, how can the transistors and whatnot inside affect sound differently? Wouldn't fewer internal components mean less signal degradation? How exactly does an amplifier work anyway?
The factors that affect electric current are known and measurable. It doesn't matter what the components are made of (semi conductors, tubes, gold, or lead), if the factors are the same, the electrical signal will be affected the same way. The number of "internal components" does not matter--only the collective electrical factors. Even if the signal was different, there is not reason to assume we can hear the differences if they are small. An amplifier uses an weak input signal to control a stronger output signal to be a more powerful copy.
Great video guys. I'd like to see a video like this in regards to DAC'S
Difference is power handling and continuity ,how long a amp will run in its full power,cheap ones will blow off quickly,same with speakers.
A person's hearing is most important as you loose high frequency over time. What sounds good to you may not sound good to me. As for Amps, of course they sound different as they are designed with different topologies and have to interact with varying impedance (resistance) from the speaker load . Go to a good hifi shop and listen to a range of Amps ($300, $500, $1000, $2000). You should easily tell the difference in clarity, detail, soundstage and dynamics. Always demo with your own speakers and music you know well. Happy listening. ☺
I'm a strong believer that all amplifiers don't sound the same. some are more powerful than others I have had a pioneer receiver 10 years ago that was very heavy on bass you could hear it down the streets but they don't make receivers like that anymore.
Why would anyone want that kind of muddy sound? Sound experience in incredibly personal (everyone's hearing sensitivity is different) but there are certain universals - Too much pepper will eventually ruin a soup, for example.
Maybe your receiver was defective or maybe you had the bass control turned up.
Can you please help me !!! I'm a novice audiophile. I have two Martin Logan Montis towers.... what amp/receiver would you use to run them as separate 2 channel, while my Marantz7011 is powering my center and two rears ?
I have heard this for years. There is a $10,000 challenge out there that I don't believe anyone has ever won for anyone who could hear the difference in a controlled set up.
I did my own test using a Status Acoustics speaker set up. 4 and 6 ohm I believe so they need a hearty amp. For the test, I used 4 different monoblock amps. Odyssey Stratos Extreme SE on the low end, Classe CAM 350's, Theta Enterprise, and Symphonic Line Kraft 300 for the top end at over $20k. I also have a Theta Dreadnaught 5 channel amp I used for comparison. All amps are high quality, but the Odyssey's are definitely on the cheap end of the list. I was a little disappointed in the results though because the Theta was just a beauty and I wanted there to be a difference. Unfortunately I did not hear any difference. They all had plenty of power on the low end. I didn't drive any past their limits so I was not testing to see which would allow me to play the loudest. However, when I put them on the Dreadnaught, I could tell a difference in this limit. I was pushing that amp beyond its potential. It was much smaller though and not rated as high. Still very nice. When I tested it again at a lesser volume, this difference went away and they all sounded the same again. The end result was that I kept the Dreadnaught and Odyssey's saving tons of money and still had an amazing set up. Maybe my ears are different, but I expect that the $10,000 challenge is still available because no one can actually tell with enough precision if you have two amps that are tested within their limits and no changes are allowed.
That being said, build quality comes into play. Aesthetics. Price. Where it is built. Connectivity. Possible features. Power needs based on the speakers you pick. No one is saying there isn't a difference in the amps, but the sound on a controlled system of two amps playing within their limits is not likely to make a difference. Tubes are a different matter. Some class D might be audible, but I doubt that too until I hear it. I'm in the camp that you don't need to spend a fortune, but you will have enough differences to make a good amp worth the while. Pyramid would not be the choice for me. ^_^
carlos oliveira In a capitalist society, everyone wants your money. If only one company made those two amps, they could charge whatever they wanted. They will or should sound the same, but build quality is very different. Cosmetics can be very costly to make them pretty. Features aren't the same. Sound should be.
I can't find your other reply so I will post it here. If you heard something wrong with a set up and determined it was your friends amp....you found something wrong. You weren't hearing a problem with an amp operating within its designed parameters.
And saying you can hear a difference in sound from cables almost guarantees you are a fan of snake oils. Unless you have wire that is too small, you will not hear the difference. Snake oil is your friend. But take it to the test and win $10,000 if you think it's more than that.
Hey I have a quick question and if you have time to reply that would be awesome. I’m new to home stereo equipment and I just bought an Integra DTR-70.2 off of eBay but I haven’t received it yet. Do you know if these had lots of issues and did I make a mistake buying it? I just bought a Puoneer SC-1522-K receiver off of eBay a week ago and it is flashing UE22 which I hear is a firmware update but then I unplug it and plug it back in and it will work for maybe 5 minutes and then sound will stop coming out so I give up on that one. I almost smashed it off the wall yesterday
Can you explain why Damping factor does not matter when it comes to bass?
Hi Gene/Hugo, great video but I need some further information on different types of amplifiers. Looking at comparing a Rotel RB1090 2x340 watt at 8ohm class A/B hifi amp vs a Crown XLS2002 375 watt at 8ohm class D pro amp with .775 volt input sensitivity. Both fed unbalanced signal from my Yamaha receiver. Size is a huge deal and cost but how would they compare in sound? My speakers like/need power (Svs ultra towers)
Great informative videos guys.
But now I am confused as heck. I have a 400w McIntosh for the front 2 channels (B&W 802D) and was going to buy a Parasound a51 (5x250w) for the surrounds+center, for HT experience. Now I am wondering whether a high powered Emotiva at half the cost would be a better choice for the surrounds and Center channel? Any thoughts...
A Saeed you can try the Emotiva's and send them back within 30 days for a refund. WE use XPR-1's to power our $50k reference speakers and their performance exceeded that of a much more expensive Pass Labs amp we tested prior on the same system. Higher price doesn't always equate to better performance.
Audioholics, my current set speaker B&W685 + nad 326. thinking of replacing the amp with a McIntosh MA5300. Room, source, listening habbit will remain unchanged. So, it is wise move to go for the McIntosh?
I cant find the amplifier test to see if I need an external amp or not. where is it on your page?
If your not using a straight line preamp, you won't hear exactly what your amp really sounds like, no matter what the specs say, I've heard many systems over the years when I first got seriously interested in audio in the early 1960's. All amps sound different, BUT some sound similar, and you have to do a lot of listening to hear the differences, being a musician at one time or another in your life helps.
I can't even imagine that there are still people put there that believe amps sound the same. If these people truly exist all they should be using is a boombox or I pod they have no business being in Hifi.
Amen.
Amen.
olaniyi570 Take the $10,000 test and win. You'd be the first.
I have a JRDG amp and it is so smooth and musical- then pop in an Aragon Amp which is a good solid high current amp, it's good, but not as musical- certainly not as refined- to my ears at least.
When you say that as the price increases there is diminishing returns. My question is: what would be the price point that would be considered the sweet spot?
You can get a LOT of quality amplification for $1k for a 2CH amp and under $2k for a multi-channel amp. Spending more can get you more power but not necessarily better fidelity.
Thanks!
+Audioholics
Even a 300 dollar amp can be pretty good I would say, depending on people's budget.
That is an open box ---- But contrary to your assertions, there is no meaningful difference among the sound of medium to high end amplifiers - as long as there is sufficient power - which is usually not a problem.
I believe that amps sound different. Now my question is, what will sound better at doing 2 channel stereo at the same price point. A stereo integrated amp or an AVR?
Subscribed! Great video guys... informative to say the least. BTW. ... does anyone know the make and model of the narrower "block" looking amp in the bottom right of the video? The dimension looks perfect for a project i am working on. Thanks!
Ryan Fuller D-Sonic Class D amplifier
Obviously some amps sound the same, but are not built the same. As an engineer, its obvious that different products use different components, that are all rated for a certain life span. Allot of this comes down to performance in general... life span of the products, temperature rating in the capacitors, pcb mounted connectors or chassis mounted... do all amps sound the same at 110 dB? No they do not but the engineer that designed the product knows what the specs the item is built around, not the general public. Square waves are great ways to test amps... squiggly lines aren't good and nice straight lines with sudden drop offs can be great. Cross talk between channels, slew induced distortion are all parameters of which the square wave usually can indicate how good an amplifier is over another.
Hey guys, Love your channel! I have one question... Would it be a bad idea connecting a pro amp like:Crown XLS 1002 to my stereo setup? How would it sound?
i run that amp to 2 polk monitor, i love it and its cheaper than most amps i found
In my systems, I will use either one amp per speaker (or cabinet of speakers) or one amp per two sets of speakers. Also, I dislike home receivers and use "other" amplifiers instead.
You guys are giving great information but I wish you would take as much care with your microphones as with your speakers. Such ordinary audio for a conversation about highend audio.
Keep up the good work with the information though!
oh the irony ;)
I went from a yamaha dsp a1, which I thought had great amplification to the outlaw audio m2200 and it sounds so much better and yet I'm not sure why they sound clearer and punchier. So now I'm wondering what a parasound a21 will bring to the table? Anyone know>
The video never once disagrees that all amps sound the same as long as they're within their range of linearity. Most of the video is about why it can be very easy to drive an amp out of linearity and how better amps can handle the more difficult loads without going non-linear. So it's still a fact that competently designed amps will sound identical. The way I used to always hear it said, good equipment doesn't have a sound. That's why people who say tube amps sound the best, that means they have a sound, which implies, by definition, that they're not accurate. Accurate reproduction has no sound, it's 'transparent', like a clear window has no color, the color of the light that enters the window is the same as the color that goes out. If you want the tube sound, that's fine, just don't claim accuracy, it's not there.
I bought the Roksan k2 Amp and Cd player. I have also a Nad C320 i had for years. For my listening pleasure The Nad gives me much more musical wow's than the Roksan and i don't know why . Personal preference i suppose
Im running
Apple I Mac
Flac/and Spotify
Nad C320
Mass Fidelity Relay (Bluetooth Dac)
Bluesound Node streamer
Tannoy Mercury 7's
Or, it could be your mind playing tricks. If you didn't do a level matched blind test, you can't be sure you hear a difference.
I've JBL Studio 190 speakers as the stereo fronts matched to a JBL Studio 120C centre speaker. I'm currently using an old Sony STR 940DB 5.1 receiver. I'm looking to replace it. My query is should the stereo amp & surround receiver be by the same manufacturer?
Pure Class 'A' amplification into Pure Resistive, true metal Ribbons speakers. NOTHING sounds better!
not all amps sound the same. They all seem to have a signature tone or color.
well all amps, amplify the sound. Than, you would use an equalizer to get the tone or color you desire.
Correct, but if you do not use an equalizer or tone control, the amp alone is colored by the quality and type of it's parts. Thus, they have a signature sound.
Amp output can be precisely measured for all electrical factors. ALL differences in amp output can therefore be identified quantitatively. If the amps are operating properly, those differences are not detectable when sound is produced via speakers.
great way to kill your amps ability to perform - equalizers only affect frequency response and totally 'gum up' dynamic response... no serious person interested in quality audio uses EQ - though there are some DSP based solutions doing that lately
antigen4 - then what does the cd producer use to adjust the sound ?
AVR has RCA preouts and Processors have xlr preouts. i heard xlr is far way better than RCA. so does this really mean that using processor with external amp is way better than using avr with external amp.
hi appreciate your skill set thanks for sharing your info ; I have not heard a lot of amps to say they all sound the same or not I'm sure their is a difference. I have only had Kenwood my 1st receiver and still love the Kenwood brand Denon Pioneer,Marantz SR6006 my current receiver. I had noree earthquake towers that I loved but it was stolen and my Denon 3033 avr I have alwas picked the middle high component right under the flagship model or right below that model so now I'm thinking about a Macintosh mx122 or 121 paired with an Emotiva amp or Monolith amp and B&W 804 towers or something in that class. I would love to here your feed back thanks and keep listening
guys thank you
i build my own amps just to do a no holds bared power supply.always build mono block to keep no shared transformer .in the 150 watt range but i only ever use no more then maybe 30. i'm not a loud listener.
this is just my piece of mind.
maybe this is what makes the biggest sound quality in amps as we have all seen amps with too small power supplys
I love the videos but it seems you really had to play safe here because you're in the position to advertise and review amplification whether its in the form of stand-alones, intergrateds, or receivers. You have a comment stating, " Spending more can get you more power but not necessarily better fidelity" and mention that the sweet spot is 1-2k anything above that is where you start falling off.
The boutique stuff is nice but when I hear about the dramatic differences in a system with a 5,000 dollar amp I roll my eyes. These are the same dudes who if you'd have asked them 10 years ago about the pure silver cables they would have swore by their mothers tits they were a hifi essential addition. You like having that stuff and spending the money cool....don't make the less wealthy feel like they are missing out on something they aren't because 10 grand isn't sitting aside for 150lb. bricks.
+CABdosdos Really? When have we been advocates of expensive exotic cables? Since I started Audioholics 16 years ago I've been dbunking snake oil in the audio industry and cables have always been a focal point. I suggest reading up on our history before making false assumptions.
+carlos oliveira It depends. Excellent amplification can be had for under a few grand these days. It's become increasingly difficult to hear appreciable differences with the more expensive stuff even with revealing speakers in an acoustically controlled room.
If you are aware of the price of an amplifier, you will be pre-biased to think it either good or bad sounding. Pre-bias will often determine the conclusions of a listening test. Thus the $25K amp will almost always "sound better" than the $5K amp for those who know the prices ahead of the listening.
i have to disagree that entry level is $5k for an amp. i have heard many products, including amps at widely varying prices. the very heart of the system is the line level preamp. get that right and then amplifiers can be of nearly any price. sure, like 400wpc VTLs and Constellation amps but one can upgrade slower in amplifiers than in most other areas.
a great tubed preamp and a more affordable ss power amp can take you a long way before the actual need for more lofty priced amplifier is required.
the affordable end of the amplifier market is well populated if one uses his head. in my case, an audio research SP3a1 preamp mated to an Adcom 555II which is hard to exceed sonically at anywhere NEAR its price. note that the arc preamp is exquisitely transparent and more than competent, that's where the money counts.
another contender in the power amp bang/buck neighborhood is Odyssey. i am intimately familiar with the Adcom line (555, 555II, 5400, 5500, and 5800) and the Odyssey Stratos and can certainly vouch for their reach into the high end sound capability.
My choice was to get higher end , second hand , with older features and technology however, in most situations this will outperform any current technology of equal price .