I really hope you enjoyed this video, it took a lot of hard work to put it together. Read the description for some context. And again, just to ensure everyone sees this: *The DRK in the clip is NOT the one the story is about.*
Prog fatigue is a thing. When you do a fight for too long you start messing up mechanics you thought you mastered. There are people that no-life this game to the point where they too start messing up mechanics due to fatigue or hit box miscalculation.
But most of the time, the person consistently fucking up halfway to the target prog point is not tired. And if it is someone who is tired, they 1. have the bare decency to communicate with their group and apologize and 2. get the hint after a while and leave. If someone is tired, but doesn't leave after half an hour of causing back to back wipes, they are throwing just as hard as the prog liars.
Making a mistake is different than being utterly lost on a mechanic. With some experience you can tell the difference. And even then, just because you made a mistake or two (or even three) thats not enough to call you out. At least, for me it isn't. If you have a really really bad day - then you should probably leave and do something else for a bit anyway, not for the party, but for your own sanity. Messing up over and over feels terrible. Dont put yourself in such a situation if you can avoid it.
@@Glenningway in the context of an ultimate. Expectation is key. Understand the skill level of the group you’re raiding with prior to making any commitments. 99% of non-loot-related raid drama is caused by discrepancy in player skill levels: ie like one player slower learning, or on average-making the majority of the teams mistakes/wipes. Anything above semi-hard core (or w/e it’s called) it’s sorta assumed that mistakes leading up to a prog point should be an exception, and it’s not uncommon to see groups consistently perform up to the prog point in a skilled group (even in PF). If you’re not confident in your ability to perform and execute at 90% in content you have already progged through and know-then this is a really good indicator that you should seek more casual raiding groups. Again the key difference between an on patch semi-hardcore team is consistency.
@@MyVanir THIS. I don't no-life the game anymore because of time but short time ago I was tired and brain fogged in a weekend morning. Nuked a dps once, got a few damage downs in a single run, eventually wiped the group twice and I knew inside my foggy head I myself didn't even fully know how I made that mistake. Said sorry I'm effing up too much and left the group. Went for a break, cleared like nothing when I came back. A prog liar stays in the group wiping over and over.
The main frustration that causes prog-lying, is attempting to prog a phase you are able to execute consistently, however, all you've seen are PF-members/party members, die over and over again to the same stupid sh*t that they should really know how to do and thus you spend 2+ hours getting 0 progress, and so you decide to join a group that is actually competant enough to do it.
This is how I tend to do PF. Once I feel competent at a mechanic and know I'm doing my part of it correctly, I will join a group for the next one if the group I'm with isn't making any progress. I've learned it's really the only way to not get stuck.
That is the only way to raid in PF if you ever hope to clear. The main frustration isn't just from people making the same stupid mistakes over and over, it's the party leads who are too scared to grow a spine and kick them to refill, so instead of replacing 1 person you gotta find a whole new party.
@@theyandereprince I think the issue with party leaders is that once someone leaves the party (for themselves or kicked) everyone leaves as well. Maybe if we get more vocal about kicking prog-liers this could be mitigated, but I duno
Exactly. This happened to me recently on Sphene EX where I had seen and wanted to prog the ice phase but every ice prog party I've joined wiped to meteors over and over. I ended up biting the bullet and joined a phase 2 Prog party and cleared after 3 pulls.
I cant do Ults with statics because of my work times, so I can only maybe clear it in PF. Best example FRU P1, I wrote something Conga Prog, even though I could prog from Start P2, but I didnt prog Conga with PF Strat, but from a static searching in PF. Now I wait for several hours to fill (Conga filling better then From Start Party, which is just horrible, not getting into new Content) when we filled people just did the wildest mistakes, even before reaching Conga, just to be disbanded and new start of Waiting Sim. How should a person with busy times even get into this content?
Three options for starting fresh in Party Finder: 1. “Enrage prog? Oh no worries, I have seen enrage on RUclips.” 2. “Clear party? Well, I certainly do want to clear…” 3. “c41? Sure - clear for 1 half of the party”
@@shadowsenpai2395 i sometimes join c41 to help out once done with things, sometimes it is that they want a carry, but sometimes people just get pissed about not being able to get a clear in a clear party... people dont have to join, but a lot of people actually like to just help out. Also in ultimates, c41 or clear parties go much better than actual reclears for some reason...
Networking is the key to success in ultimate PF - I especially recommend forming a PF linkshell. People tend to develop an understanding of where others are in the fight, and so if they're aware you've been trapped for a while and got left behind while others "had their passport stamped" in a fortunate party, they'll be more gracious towards catching you up. My mindset towards progging ultimate raids in PF is to build consistency on earlier phases and good karma through helping parties behind you, then spending that accumulated good karma if a small jump forward is necessary - once you feel solidly confident through studying, vod review, and simming, of course.
It's sad how common prog lying has become. I like to stay thruthful or if I join a group that is a little further ahead, I prefer to ask first if they are fine with it. But having cleared TOP during 6.5 in PF, tomestone quickly became my best friend
It shows the state of the game and its community. Nobody wants to teach fights because a lot of them are really bad to teach. And the lack of tactility between player and mechanics due to the overly used pixel-perfect "stand and let thing resolve" mechanics design makes it really hard for them to stick and it is damn near impossible to teach hard FFXIV content without visuals. The limited camera zoom and desync doesn't help either when trying to advice a player in real-time. This is why people will always tell you to watch a video guide and as someone who actively teaches hard content in many games, I don't personally condone this behavior but I make an exception for FFXIV because everything is abstract until someone sees it and by the time you see anything, the game gives you too little time to understand and react and it's already too late and now you've got half the party wondering if they did something wrong Try sherpa'ing/teaching raids and multiple games for a while and eventually you'll wanna stop teaching EXs/Savage/Ults like I did. Trying to learn FFXIV without a video guide and having someone teach you is effectively self-imposed gaslighting
The problem is that everyone can't be 100% honest about it because there simply isn't enough people doing every content for this to be possible. To some degree, everyone will have to jump ahead, or backwards from where they are due to a lack of players.
@@2inverse469 I am not against prog lying per say. I think it becomes an issue in ultimates for example when people lie about a prog point that is easily a whole phase ahead. One or two mechanics is something you can deal with (sure can depend on the mechanic)
@@2inverse469 You can absolutely still be honest about your progress even if you're joining a party that's beyond your current prog point. Just ask if it's okay. You will find groups that are okay accommodating you and catching you up to speed. If you lie, you just set up an unfair expectation about your experience, and it makes it unnecessarily difficult to accommodate you. Instead of being able to provide tips and help point out where you're going wrong so you can improve I have to decide I have to sit there and pretend I haven't noticed you've likely lied about your experience because if I do treat you like someone who's inexperienced you might get defensive in order to maintain your lie, which just slows down prog. The people who feel like the solution to their prog issues is to lie to others are almost always worse to play with and slower to catch up than someone who's honest about not having experience.
@@2inverse469 Not having enough people does not stop people from being honest about their prog point, what are you on about? Lying about prog point to join and asking the pf host if you can join with an earlier prog point are not the same and it is better to stay 3 hours waiting in PF than an hour filling the group and 2 hours without reaching your target mechanic. Prog lying is 100% negative, toxic behavior that should not be tolerated.
The problem, to me, comes not only from the lie itself but also when people keep it secret. A raid group never works when people keep secrets to themselves, like when they die to a mechanic because they have no idea how to resolve it but they keep that a secret in hopes nobody notices them, or ending up resolving it by sheer luck, or they die and get rezzed past it. I've been in groups where people lie about their progress but they're honest about it, so it makes it easier to work around that so the group can stand on the same foot as soon as possible, but every time people keep their "secret" to themselves, it makes it very frustrating cuz it ends up being a huge waste of time for both the liar and the rest of the group for the sake of avoiding the embarassment.
Great video! FRU being the first ultimate since Tomestone's release should be interesting for PF. A surprising amount of people still don't know about it, but I imagine cooperation will be much more encouraged because liars can be spotted easily ahead of time.
Haha, guess my thumbnail, title and hook are doing its work, glad to see. The Game Theory part of the video can be quite useful to you even if you have not a single clue about FFXIV or MMOs in general.
Sometimes I think it's a different kind of misjudgement. say your last party reached the advertised prog point 50% of the time. You feel like nearly all of the wipes before are not on you. It's easy to assume YOUR prog point is the neext mechanic and only the rest of tghe group did not make it there consistantly. Some may also just limping there with rezzes, which means actually less than 50% is the times you actually did the previous mechanic right You may also misjudge how many of the wipes are on you, by misunderstanding something BECAUSE it is your ACTUAL prog point. So thats a situation were I think it's common and easy to misjudge what your prog point is. but as you said, that usually leads to a relativly small offence
I think this is definitely part of it that didn't get discussed, yeah. What 'prog point' means to people drastically varies I've noticed. To some, a prog point is where you can get to consistently. While to some it's the furthest you've seen, even if you aren't comfortable with it.
I'mma get hate for this but I don't care. I think the entire attitude that prompted you to make this video in the first place is why prog lying is even a thing to talk about. You talked about motivation solely in the context of what they might get out of lying, namely easier progression in a raid. That is definitely true for some people, but I don't think the majority of people in raids are that selfish. Research indicates the the motivation to lie to avoid negative judgement is much more common than lying for personal gain. I think the reason you see prog liars is that many of them tried to get a group going, but it couldn't get off the ground for reason XYZ. So they try to join any group, and to avoid being instantly booted or shamed for sucking, they just pretend they're further along and hope to god they can pull it off. I don't believe it is any deeper than that most of the time.
this tier was the first tier i ever did savage so i had a friend helping me out. he would consistently throw me into parties above my prog point cause he said "you should be able to do it." it made me feel so bad cause i was not able to keep up... im afraid how many people blacklisted me for that.
shouldve just apologized and left i also had a friend encouraging me because he also believed in me being good... i know he was a good player and fast learner so he was definitely competent enough to "proglie" but i was in fact not i felt bad holding parties back when i tried it so i would apologize for griefing and leave if i felt like i couldnt make it to the actual prog point and just went back to being honest lol
I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally don't even go out of my way to blacklist people for exp faking, unless it's a really atrocious case. Like someone who has a big mouth, but keeps wiping the group, blaming others or never saying "mb" in chat. (Don't nail me down on it, it's always a combination of multiple or all factors, not just one) And It's pretty much a common sight to see these groups where you have an ultimate raider who really carries the group, who also invites a poor friend who gets way too much on his plate. xD He was probably well-meaning, but should have taken more time. I wouldn't blame you if I was in one of these groups.
@walwal6449 yeah i ended up joining other prog parties that were actually at my point and now ive managed to clear the tier. it was just frustrating cause i kept being told the only way to prog was to lie...
Yeah, prog lying is one thing, but people whove already cleared joining my ice prog and getting mad when i cant consistently clear the mechanic is a whole nother thing.
I have an experienced raid friend who mentioned this before, I'm recently getting into savages after playing for 4+years and being called out as a griefer when I'm just bad at the game made me put it off for so long. Thankfully joining freash prog groups has made me learn fights enough to almost clear(m1s) and slowly getting better at just leaning fights and not thinking of bosses as training dummies.
this might sound harsh but it'll be the best bit of advice you'll ever hear, both IRL and for multiplayer games. don't care what others think of you. if you're honest with your prog, for example you're on beat 1 prog for M2S and you join a party for beat 1 prog and onwards, you're honesty, if someone calls you a griefer, so be it, why would you care, you'll likely never gonna see or hear that person ever again in your life. prog at your own speed and if someone outright calls you a griefer, just shrug it off. if someone asks you why you're messing up, just be honest, generally people are willing to explain to you what you're doing wrong and how to fix it, it's just that a lot of people nowadays instantly get defensive when they get called out.
@@DarkDyllon Agreed. Don't be defensive out of nowhere. I'm gonna be far more patient with someone that says "I'm kinda new to savage" than someone that says "Well I guess I just suck then, huh?" And I'll be more patient with that second person than someone that says "Just leave me alone and do your own thing."
@@SapphireDragon357 pretty much, you see this quite a bit in ultimate reclear parties, where you get someone who either hasn't done the fight for a long time and is clearly rusty, or someone who just freshly cleared, made it barely, but then joins farm parties because "I cleared" Had this a few times where me or someone else calls that person out and they instantly go "I wasn't messing up all the time! messed up more!" like ... buddy, I don't care, you're the 1 that's actively messing up, acknowledge it and fix it, or piss off, we're here for a reclear, not to prog your rustyness or lack of experience.
I've been doing TOP for a few weeks now. After the first few days, i got a good handle on P1. For the next few days (5+), I saw party synergy maybe 10 times total. About a week later, I've seen party synergy enough and feel like I'm ready for the next step, but all P2 prog is just endless looper, people grabbing wrong tethers, not flexing properly (3/5 panto splits) and it feels like there's just no world where I get to phase 3. It's all 10+ pulls to see 1 party synergy at this point.
Seems like it hasn't changed since back then. It was the same when TOP came out. It was simply impossible to reach p3 and p3 prog partys became more rare as more people progressed to p4/p5. I decided to prog lie out of frustration with p2 partys and joined a p4 from the start party, because i was confident in my ability to convert theory into gameplay. We got to Monitors on like our second pull and started doing p4 some pulls later. Im never proud of prog lying, but on the other hand i have the confidence to say that i can backup everything through my gameplay.
@@kunstlerischesetwas1284 Some people, like myself can see something and put it into action easier. Back in O12S, I watched a guide and joined a clear party and we cleared first pull. If you can see something and put it into action after 1 or 2 times of seeing it, I don’t think that’s prog lying. The people who KNOW they can’t do it are lying. But it’s funny when people who progged further mess up earlier it’s just “my bad” and if YOU mess up earlier than the prog point it’s “wow are you really even there?” Type shit lol.
@@kunstlerischesetwas1284 To be honest, if you prepared accordingly, and were willing to tap out if you were anchoring the group - I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Like, yeah, it's super frustrating feeling like you might be contributing to the problem, but I feel like genuinely preparing for the mechanic ahead of time is enough to separate you from real prog liars.
This issue of Prog liars has really struck a cord with me recently, particularly with the new EX3 (Sphene's Burden). Maybe it's just me, but I feel that a lot of players are struggling with the ice phase in this fight, especially the bridge crossing. A lot of players making mistakes on this part even when in a 'duty complete/farm' party. It feels like a player gets a 'lucky clear' and then immediately jump into a farming party hoping to get carried, instead of staying in practice parties to polish their mechanics.
Ice phase has been such an awful experience. I went 5 days without a single clear because every party I joined had people who couldn't do it properly, even after going over fixed bridges several times. Worst part is it's not even a hard mechanic, people are just far too impatient.
Was doing this fight last night and had to reform the party like 6+ times before found a group that could consistently clear. There was always one person that would consistently screw up bridges and/or tethers and wipe the party. The funny part is those people were almost always the first to silently dip from the group and cause a disband. At that point I was willing to sit through ice prog again just to get a group that could clear but nope, no patience from them I guess.
When someone says they are on a mech, they mean they got there one time by chance and the party they were with resolved it while they were dead. So you know...that's the mech, "They are on".
Literally my former raid lead did this when we were progging p8s. I tried to push back that no we weren't consistently on x prog, we got there by a fluke but they threw up the PF with the lie-prog-point anyway. I did not stay long lol; it make me feel icky.
The problem is simple. Someone sees x mechanic ONCE and they now think they're at x prog point. Its the ccommunity's fault for the toxic positivity of "omg we made prog, yay!"
I treat prog lying similar how I apply to jobs - if it's something I know I can do, I lie, join, do the thing, then be on my way. No harm done. The only time prog lying is a problem is when people know full well they aren't capable.
My friend and I have a running joke that if we want to practice a specific phase of a fight, we should be joining a group that practice the phase *after*. Because everytime, the other players just die to the phase before the one we're supposed to be practicing.
Since everybody know less than they say they do, when I get into prog party where I actually am progging, ppl can't get to the prog point. So I get into a prog party beyond where I actually am. And guess what, more times than not i end up progging the right part, not what is actually said on pf description. 90% of ppl are prog liars.
This was my first savage tier and I had the same experience. If I joined M4S intermission prog, the group would be stuck wiping to electrope edge 2. If I joined midnight sabbath prog, we'd be progging intermission. So I was put in a situation where I was essentially forced to lie about my prog point because otherwise I wouldn't actually be able to prog. I always felt bad about it, but it was the only way.
While I can see your frustration, keep in mind the image I show at 1:10 - even if noone is proglying, all of the party will be inconsistent on the 1-2 mechs leading up to the prog-point. Thats normal. If they never reach the prog-point its especially frustrating. I can tell you from my static though (where everyone is exactly at the same prog point) - there is days you can't reach the last mechanic you saw previously. Its consistency training then and absolutely required and necessary. Its just, this doesn't translate. In a static you get something out of it, because everyone in it gets better on the mechs before where they are shaky. In PF you dont see the same people again, usually, so that consistency practice you did only helps yourself. If you are pretty consistent on the mechanics leading up to the one you want to practice, joining for a little bit further tends to be viable, without really lying or hurting anyone, as others will be as conistent or maybe even less at that point. The issue is more when people default do that without even attempting to join at their prog point and without having the consistency to not grief.
I also like to liken it to tragedy of the commons, where ppl behave in a way that collectively is a negative benefit for their own personal gain (but everyone does it and drags down the median) rather than cooperating
I prog lied once for DSR PF, and was more consistent than the entire party before the prog point and never saw the phase 5 in question. Tomestone is a good tool, but sometimes even Tomestone is a problem because they reached the prog point once by luck by being the parasite in question and is not even consistent before. It's an endless problem. I never prog lie since that event, but it tends to frustrate me to be stuck endlessly on previous phases due to this lack of consistency I see everyday in PF. And don't make me start talk about plugins that helps people do fights. On patch day last week it took me 6 hours to do reclears after work because of people not having plugins and failing at early fight mechanics, from M1 to M4. Both are an issue with end game content, prog liars, and plugins.
you can generally see in a person's movement if they're comfortable with the mechanic or not. in DSR for example when I was helping out a few people, 2 of them instantly walked to the proper spots for P3 dives. 1 person however either arrived just on time or messed up constantly. (that person was a DRK, so it's not a casting issue, especially since I cleared DSR on RDM and i'm always way on time for anything in P3) movement can be an easy indicator if someone is lying or not, if you're not comfortable with a mechanic, you're not done progging that, if you monkaSteer past that mechanic, you're not magically on "P4 prog"
Was trying to help my sprout friend with her first M1S clear after she saw to Raining Cats in practice parties and we'd gotten the boss down to 5%. After 4 hours of c41s, we eventually just joined a weekly 2-chest that hadnt locked their party to Duty Complete. We asked if she was okay to join having not cleared, and the lead didn't mind. We then spent the next 90 minutes having to explain various mechanics and methods of solving them to at least 5 other people in the group. Including the lead. We did not get her the clear.
Sad, but yeah, when you are clear-ready, like, properly clear-ready, asking to join a weekly 2 chest is a great idea. You're asking, so if they don't want it, they don't have to invite you. Most won't mind. Its also extra tomestones, so its not like the party doesn't get a little something out of it as well.
im the direct opposite of a prog liar. i often join groups that are 2-3 mechanics behind, because even though i've reached that mechanic, i don't feel confident enough to consistently get there.
In OCE it's sadly a little difficult, especially in Ults. I can attest that I actually had to lie about my prog in UCOB to actually clear that one. Cause I was Adds and had it all down pat having seen every quote after a few pulls there yet there was always (weirdly enough helpers were the worst for it) someone who'd eat a twister or have fun with the tankswaps or misread the quotes. So I saw a Golden A2C and I just decided to send it and got the clear on the first Golden pull (out of two total pulls because Nael memes), granted while nerves did make me eat an exaflare halfway thru golden, I was doing well til then. As for experience in real ults (Alexander and up) my god it was awful. There was this one guy in OCE TEA (iykyk who) who was 'wormhole' but was basically hardstuck BJCC because he got most of the DCs community to BL him because he always overstated his prog point. Another aspect of that is that in OCE it's really, really harder to deal with prog liars because the Ult community is so small that it may very well be better to deal with having someone one mechanic behind than PF'ing for three hours before disband. DSR was a little bit worse, but people generally were open with eachother about where they were at and would /tell asking if they could join up from earlier prog. The absolute worst ult for prog lying was UWU though, actual brainworms trying to PF that damn Ultimate, only time I actually went out of my way to find a static because the DRK that did zero mits and oGCD and had the absolute audacity to ask for some of my food mid-instance would be in every party I joined. So to my mind I actually accept prog 'liars' into my party if they ask and are honest about it (along with party's approval) just because of the realities of progging Ultimates in a somewhat-dead DC sometimes just come down to having to make pragmatic choices. I'd rather be in instance at one prog point away than spend twelve hours in PF (yes, really) and not actually seeing the advertised prog point within thirty minutes. TOP I haven't done completely since I think DSR burned me hard mentally and I've never been able to recover enough to be able to try for it good and proper (hit P4 enrage/P5 prog). But TOP was overall better in terms of player quality, but once you hit P5 it got very clear who was actually consistent at mechanics before that and was less a matter of lying and more a matter of people's brains melting out of their ears.
one day i joined a c41 for TEA, after 20min of wiping to LL and another 15 in BJCC wiping due to a melee (the party leader) missing water stack we finally got to timestop, after having enough i decided to bust out the tome to find that the melee was actually at like 27% on LL. The man prog lied his way through all of LC, BJCC and to timestop in just 45min. I mentioned this is party chat to which the party obviously disbanded. The melee then posted the log, updating his tomestone, and put up a new pf titled "Inception prog." I will never forget his name, i was so tilted.
Ive also noticed people who are progging or progged in a static join PFs of equal prog point, which should seem fine until they dont know what strats the pf does and decide the best place to learn the early phase strat diff between their static and the pf is in totem farm parties
Now do a video about the experienced players that sign up for beginner/casual statics or PF groups and ruin the experience for everyone else by being super passive aggressive and/or outright toxic. Also a super bad time 😂
and tank players or other players who jump into a PF that has established strats the the whole group is using already and try to make the group do a different strat. Had that happen to my static for M1S. A tank decided that he was gonna do his preferred strat and kept throwing us off. He was the only pug in the group. We are a fresh static where a lot of us haven't even cleared a raid tier before. We even mentioned that in the PF description lol
Had a tank and healer join together who immidiately ignored the strats that were advertised and would throw if either of them died once and blamed it on everyone else.
video was hard to follow because the terms used were tailored to explaining the prisoner's dilemma, while the video was trying to explain prog lying in pf; could've been easier to follow if you curated an example of the prisoner's dilemma using a pf setting instead and explained it that way.
This actually killed me because I was thinking about this topic all day today. I was trying to clear Sphene Extreme yesterday and all the "clear" groups I joined couldn't get past meteors and I was going insane. Also great explanation of the prisoner's dilemma, sounded just like a college game theory course!
Glad to hear - I studied game design and worked professionally as game designer so if I didn't manage to explain this bit of game theory I would be disappointed in myself.
Oh and yeah... Sphene Extreme is rough. I haven't seen such a shitshow in a while. Ice phase is the bane of any farm party. Last time it was this bad was with Barbaricca and I swear it wasn't THAT bad. And the fight isn't even difficult. It just really emphasizes the weaknesses of PF.
@@menardyxiv the amount of times the PF says "static bridges" and then the OT, M2, R2 or H2 runs on the top bridge for their spot, even though their bridge is the south bridge and then kill me because of it. then they go "oh oops" and move on, like dude, you just wasted so much time and an easy clear because you wanted to hold W instead of taking your proper bridge.
People lying about their true prog point or in a PF description is the equivalent of lying on your resume and hoping you get the job without anyone noticing.
My entire M4S experience this tier was basically summed up by prog lying, just so many parties that claimed to be even at intermission or further, then one or two players would cause EE2 wipes. So it was rather infuriating having to sit in pf for 20-30 minutes, go in, constantly wipe to EE2 cause of one or two people trying to basically scam their way further into the fight, one person leaves after 3 or 4 pulls cause no actual prog is being made, rest of the party explodes or enough leave, then back to another 20-30 minutes in PF. It was almost always that kind of domino effect too that was almost always kicked off by someone trying to scam their way higher into the fight or had only seen the prog point mechanic once. And I'll be honest, it almost ruined the experience, before this tier, I usually ran with a static, but this tier I had to do PF cause my schedule just wouldn't allow for one.
Before 7.0 I was trying to prog P9S, and when my static stopped, I tried PF. Not a good experience. Party pulled a couple times and then disbanded. It was a cleanup party that I joined because I've consistently done JP Levinstrike and reached enrage a couple times with minor issues. Some people were there that played like they haven't even SEEN the normal version.
The only time I joined a group with a prog point further than mine was on TOP. I was consistent up to p5, cleared delta a few times but the parties for sigma weren't consistent throughout the earlier phases. Didn't lie though, I shot a dm to the party leader and they agreed to let me in their omega group. Ended up reaching p6 and clearing with them a few days later. Remember that there is an even more powerful tool than blacklist for progging ultimates. Friendlist. Add people, bond, network, talk and be honest, create LS, discords, whatever you prefer. Ultimate prog shows how someone is both as a person and as a player. Parses are almost entirely irrelevant to the skill of progging (within a reasonnable range though). Having a pool of good players to play with without the constraints of a static is a great way to make pf enjoyable and make friends along the way.
I sometimes join random parties at random points of prog and try to help in fights I have cleared. Sometimes I also host clear parties but I don't need the clear I try to give others the clear. In my experience doing this for a long time now, It's the ones who leave at the slightest hinderance who are the smartest or the most problematic. People always send me tells to "Clear on alt" or asking if they can join the party for clear. I always leave their fate to the party and majority of the time people are merciful.
Ff players would do well to remember the streisand effect exists. I raid in static now since I got a job. But when I played in PF and someone had hidden logs/tomestone, you had better believe me and the squad had that mfer under the microscope, if it was obvious they didn't know wtf is going on, straight on the blacklist see you next patch.
I cleared zurvan unreal on my very first time. Some people lie because they learn fast and dont have patience to watch someone not stand on a marker 30 pulls in a row.
Honestly, M4S in particular was really rough to get my clear originally(first time raider) I figured proglying was happing A LOT mainly due to EE2 memes. I was stuck there for ages and it aint even that hard. Rn I'm stuck getting my ex3 clear because every Ice phase party i join get stuck at meteors or AA and it's frustrating because i have seen the phase 1 enrange but i cant get past it because there's always some type of meme happing. It would make sense why. I get it could just be someone learning for the first time and people have off days but it gets to a point where it's suspicious how often 1 person screws up the same mech.
I am lucky with my EX3 experience, I don't really have time during the week so I only start on Sunday, 3 different PF and less than 3 hours later I am done. 1st PF from start, reach Ice phase. 2nd PF, never reach ice phase, either prog lie or ppl just suck (I raid on Crystal and we usually suck lol) 3rd PF I decided to roll the dice and wait for those 7/8 static PF show up, I go in, done in 2 pull.
I've never lied about this stuff personally. I've had players in PF back during ShB ask if I knew fights like Suzaku (this was during my mount farming arc) and I always told them no. What those players did like was how quickly I picked up on the mechanics despite initially doubting me. They also liked that I never bragged about it and even asked on a few occasions. I just told them its a minor achievement for me when compared to an Ultimate raid. Plus I don't enjoy bragging, makes me feel like a narcissist
fair to say prog lying is a problem or not more depends on player skills. For good raiders even they didn't done the mech before they still can make it as other people. But if the party getting behind cause the liar, technically it's an skill issue and over confidence problem
Shocker that people might do this! Really though, the problem is the fact that nobody talks about the wipes and the entire pf gets disbanded. Finding the problem or even kicking the "liars" would never happen. Just disband everytime.
Sphene PF from day2-5 was horrrrible. Lots of prog liars but also toxic people getting mad when you didn’t use a stray they liked but didn’t explain at all and just assumed you did the fight the same way as them (sphene ex has lots of mechs that can be completed in many different ways) had someone complaining because the group was wiping at meteors and complaining we were following the pastebin, now this was day 2 so there were lots of pastebins out so no one knew which one they meant. PF lead wasn’t talking so when the toxic person asked for a pastbin link I sent them a link to the speenebin cuz maybe they needed help right. They immediately called me an idiot and worse cuz we were doing a different strat than was in the bin (which actually had multiple strats for different mechs) the girl blows up at me when I wasn’t even the PF lead and deciding which strat we were doing. Just wanted to help them by sending a pastebin but that was the wrong idea I guess. I know that getting stuck on a mech earlier than prog point can suck but damn people act like actual children in PF recently it’s gross
Back during coils when they were current, I joined a farm party for T11 when I never cleared. I had gotten so frustrated at not clearing on pf despite knowing the fight up, down and sideways so I said fuck it. When we loaded in and that "one or more party members have yet to clear" message appeared there was a long awkward silence followed by pleads for someone to confess. Instead of disbanding right away they figured theyd spot the liar by seeing who fucked up the most on 1 single try. Im not proud of parasiting but I am proud I performed flawlessly lmao got my clear and never did that again.
I will say this. Recently I met a pair of players. I will be addressing them simply as YI and BA. YI on their log has a singular clear of DSR on WHM. BA has multiple clears of DSR on WHM. YI has a singular clear of TOP on SMN. BA has multiple clears of TOP on SMN. Where this occurred is in a Warrior player's /Clear for one/ with the duty complete setting checked. With the context out of the way, YI in DSR was notably on MNK and not WHM. Their movement for every single phase of the fight was shoddy, nervous and sporadic. They're late to their personal responsibilities in /every single phase/ and overall just seems /lost/ all throughout the fight. They wipe the party repeatedly in phase 3, sporadically messing up his tether pass priority in phase 4, and being completely lost for every pull into phase 5. YI quite literally floor tanked phase 5 and we somehow still managed to make the dps check without him to see phase 6. Immediately upon reaching phase six YI proceeded to hit the dragon assigned to the opposite light party creating an hp discrepancy that simply could not be fixed in time, which caused yet another wipe. The party disbanded after a full lockout of random wipes from YI single handedly almost. Note: YI was not the clear for one. It was so awful to the point where I wondered how YI even had a clear so I went and dug through YI's logs and tomestone. Upon looking at their tomestone, YI recently had been slowly /progging/ the fight over the course of approximately 3 weeks on solely Monk with nearly every party having BA in it along side them on White Mage. Note: Prior to joining a duty complete locked CLEAR FOR ONE, he'd only progressed to the beginning of phase 5. It became all too clear what had occurred. YI had a piloted clear. And then joined a player's clear for one to prog skip all of DSR phase 5 just to see phase 6. I've never been so baffled. I would name drop if I had solid evidence but all I have is just a strong suspicion that leans towards /very validated/. Two days later I see YI posting a /clear for one/ for themself (Remember they already have the duty complete checkmark due to being piloted) with their friend BA filling the White Mage slot of the party finder ad. I check their tomestone's recent activity and they haven't even made it to DSR phase 6 again since prog lying. I've never blacklisted two players so fast in my life.
I agree to an extent because I have suffered both sides. For example, I've wasted hours in PF because with multiple runs people lie and it's very frustrating - agree. However, having played WoW where everything is recorded on their version of fflogs (RIO) it creates a situation where only over-geared and over-experienced people are accepted into groups - the very people that don't need to clear them, so you end up with a vastly reduced player pool due to this. Essentially the proggers want a carry from those who have already cleared. All of that said, I was called an elitest because I checked fflogs and removed "suspicious" people from my party. It turned out to be a good call, but I was 100% contributing to the problem of reducing the player pool - but I figure that these people will eventually "brute force" their way through the fight anyway. I also, often, go back as a "helper" and try to help correct the problem I've contributed to by increasing the player pool. As a helper, I'm less annoyed by liars and I'm also expecting mistakes to be made - plus it's not impedeing my personal progress. So if you're going to go "full elitest" and check logs, remove people, etc then you have to acknowledge that you're creating/contributing to another problem altogether. If so, your remedy (or penance) is to go back as a helper and assist others.
I can't tell you how many times this week I joined an Ice prog and parasites were dying at meteors, or joined a p2 enrage prog and parasites were dying at ice.....
Sphene Ex is really showing how bad it has become in more "casual" circles. TOP PF was already a nightmare in 6.4/6.5 - but thats a very niche community.
Sphene is so bad with it. Until my static got together and cleared it, the amount of "Ice progs" there were and people were dying to meteors/coronations was INSANE. Someone even had the audacity to ask "What do we do with the meteors again?" Like COME ON.
for M4Si have lied in prog, but did it good anyways, i realized that if you joined a Intermission prog then its a EE2 prog. So due to that, i joined a Mustard bomb/ Twillight sabbath. That way people usually wiped in Intermission and could progged easily. Even more, people that already did the fight fucked up more than i did
I really dont mind a little prog lie. So long as you're able to back it up. A while back I was in a M3S group with a MNK who was fresh prog while we were progging a mechanic about 8 minutes into the fight. This dude managed to prog the first 8 minutes in 3 or 4 pulls. I dont mind him joining in such a weird way. I myself "lie" because I know im able to back up my lie with good performance. Just earlier this week in FRU I made it to the end on Diamond Dust and i found it super easy but I felt stuck with other people progging past this mechanic. So I joined a Light Rampant party and after a pull or 3 I got the hang of that as well. now I know I should stick with LR for a while but it feels like im ready for enrage prog
Ive only blacklisted liars who insist they arent. Had a awesome pf for m4s, got to see sunrise multiple times. However a member had to leave, and were replaced by someone i had previously blacklisted. I had met them in an midnight prog group and dude kept dying to witch hunt and ee1. He would claim that he wasnt the problem, and would complain when someone other than him messed up. We didnt get to see phase 2 again that pf, and i ended up calling him out before leaving and blacklisting him again.
My PF ultimate raiding experience would have been exponentially longer if it weren’t for prog lying. Every group I joined was a mechanic behind the actual PF description. You’re already waiting so long for ultimate groups to fill so I started joining groups a mechanic ahead and really started seeing progress. Sucks that it came to that but sometimes you have to game the system to get ahead.
yep that's the key. the fact that it takes too long to wait in party finder for ultimate groups to fill. It's actually so bad that people will put "3mil gil to everyone if we see X mechanic, or 3mil gil if we clear". nobody should have to pay gil just to prog or clear lol
@@halo2rocks76I had to do that for TEA. 100k to see BPOG, 1m if we saw inception. We phase cleared BJCC the second pull. A massive weight felt like it was lifted off my shoulders. For the past few weeks I hadn't screwed up LL/LC once. And I don't mean like I screwed up occasionally, I mean like I straight up didn't fuck up LL/LC once I considered it past my prog point which was infuriating to witness how many people fucked up LC, or die to chakrams, or hawk blasters.... it felt so relieving seeing that phase clear and then time-stop on the second pull. I admitted to the party I didn't study past time-stop because I felt hopeless I'd never see it and they were happy to help explain inception to me. Best 7.7m I ever spent. It's funny, people will say "well you're the only common person in all your parties" but that logic doesn't really hold in a game where 7 other people have to be honest and perform. It doesn't matter how well I perform if someone keeps forgetting not to stack with the water vuln or a DPS keeps dropping nisis
I'm glad to see someone highlight this issue, this savage tier was by no means hard in comparison to others but progging it in PF was hell on NA not so much EU. I totally agree with a communal effort of coming down hard on them will stamp the issue out eventually.
It was bad in EU too. Every fight took me 1 day to learn and another day to find a party that wasn't being sabotaged by at least 1 moron. These leeches waste entire days of people's time and think nothing of it.
Prog lying is a big problem but only if the person doing it can't keep up. As someone who has been guilty of prog lying, I sympathize with anyone that sees it as the only option in the current PF. I will try my best to match the prog point of the groups but in this savage tier the only way that I was able to make progress in any of the fights was by prog lying past the wall after I couldn't get a competent enough group that could do it. The community needs more honesty about their individual skill levels, not some arbitrary hurdle of 7 other people that you don't know doing the mechanic right before you can progress.
Recently met a player who had a piloted clear of DSR join a (Duty Complete checked) clear for one for another player only to troll every single phase of the fight merely for their own prog. I honestly hope the 6 other players caught on like I did checking both their logs and tomestone. I hope they get blacklisted by every raider in the scene.
Sadly that's also the case with reclear groups... I just recently joined a uwu reclear pt. I haven't cleared yet, bcs pf... So I asked them to join and they said yes if I'm confident... In the end they trapped me for over 1 hour, mostly failing to garuda...
VERY Long comment incoming. Dawntrail was my first time getting into Savage. Before I started Savage, I did A LOT of researching to find out what all the terms meant, what actual positioning means, what "true north" means, so on and so forth. As a result, I started running Savage late into the expansion. It wasn't until I made it to M3S that I truly started seeing prog liars. I didn't know what they were called, but I knew that there were people joining who didn't know the fight. It took me 3 weeks to clear M3S playing and everyday for 4-5 hours a day. Day in and day out, it was prog liars. People who claimed they knew final fusedown and fusefield, but died multiple times to the starting mechanics. M4S was really bad. I started M4S around the beginning of November, but didn't clear it until this past Saturday (December 21st). Almost 2 months of grinding this fight everyday for 4-5 hours a day, and again, it was the same issue. People claiming to know the mechanics, people claiming to have made it to Sunrise, ONLY TO FAIL LITERALLY EVERY MECHANICS IN PHASE 1. In order to get my clear, I actually had to change my party finder description. Instead of putting strats, and normal PF things like "sunrise to clear", I literally put "This is a clear party, do not join if you don't know the fight. Failing phase 1 two times will result in an instant disband." And sadly, I had to do what you said, kick the person who is messing up the fight. We had a monk join who failed Electrope Edge 2 twice and wiped the party. I ended the duty, kicked him, told everyone I kicked him because he messed up, then re-upped the PF. On the second time, we managed to put together a clear party. We didn't clear it on our first go, but we made it to Sunrise consistently and it was only a matter of cleaning up that mechanic with a few people. It took us about an hour, but we cleared it and I was nearly tearing up. We even did a Gpose afterwards because we were all so hyped and I wasn't the only person frustrated of dealing with prog liars. My biggest regret was tolerating bad players. I feel if I had did that a month ago, it wouldn't have taken so long. There were plenty of other prog parties out there, and when you're still learning the fight, you shouldn't be joining parties that are meant to clear. When you're progging the fight, your goal shouldn't be to clear, but to complete the early mechanics flawlessly. What's also unfortunate is that I remember encountering a bunch of toxic players as I was progging the fight. I remember struggling to learn Electrope Edge 2, and someone who had already cleared flat out called me stupid for not understanding it. There aren't that many toxic players in the FF14 community, but I can confirm that the overwhelming majority of toxic players I've encountered have been from PVP (because it's competitive) and savage raiding. These people simply make prog liars continue what they do out of spite, without any care for anyone but themselves. Before I got my clear, I was in a party a few weeks ago that felt like a possible clear. We kept making it to Sunrise consistently without anyone dying. Someone had to go and we just needed one more person. During the break, the guy who helped his friend was telling me I need to relearn the entire fight. I said "I don't know need to relearn the entire fight, I haven't made any mistakes until Sunrise." And rather than offering any constructive criticisms like "well you actually messed up here" or "there's a better way of doing this" he simply kept saying "no, you need to relearn the whole fight." So I said "Actually, what I don't need to do is stay in a party with someone like you. Good bye ^_^." and I left and called it quits for the night. The next night, I saw the guy trying to get a clear again, so it's safe to assume he didn't pass it. People who have learned and completed the fight don't need to be arrogant. It doesn't make you a better player just because you cleared, it just means you had a party that actually knew the fight. Everyone starts from 0, so being arrogant about clearing content really doesn't make sense to me because it's not like you learned it instantly, or cleared the hour the content released. But back to prog liars, you do have to put your foot down, otherwise you'll never get the clear. It's a shame you have to do it, but there really isn't a choice unless you're running with statics. I've actually had WORSE luck finding a consistent static than I did with party finder. I went to the FFXIV recruitment subreddit to find a static team, and there was always someone who was always late, no call no show, didn't do any studying, getting distracted, canceling, not paying attention, or not getting any better. I actually gave up on finding a good static team and just went back to PF, which ultimately worked for me. If you find a good static, cherish them because life is way more difficult without them. All in all, your video gave some harsh but true advice to people dealing with prog liars.
Keep in mind, since you started the tier so late: - This savage tier was particularly easy, I don't say this to make you feel bad or similar, but rather because easy raid tiers attract really really bad players - For example Abyssos was not easy, rough dps check in p8s, p5s really had hands and gatekept casuals from higher floors - The later you prog a savage tier, the worse the players - There is always talented new players or those that took a break, but they cannot offset the 4-7 people you have in a party that simply dont even understand the fundamentals of the game, their job and ontop of it are extremely inconsistent players - And thats why main point, when you have a party that is at say Final Fusedown, that means they ARE in fact still inconsistent on the mechs before that, as I showed in the video - Just, when you have decent players, like day 1/2/3 of savage release, what is "shaky and inconsistent" for them will look like perfection to you and vice versa - the players you dealt with, they will never get even semi-consistent on some of the harder mechs, because they don't care, they raid very little and just lack the skills Not trying to invalidate your experience, but rather trying to say - the bad experience you had was largely due to progging the tier many weeks into it being released. When all the really really bad players zombied through floors 1 & 2 being carried by having gear above the minimum. Week 1 everyone has 710 ilvl, you don't beat the fights messing up half the mechanics and with people not playing their job correctly.
@@menardyxiv I've heard that sentiment many many times. "All the good people have moved on and got all the gear they need." Also, there's a ton of other videos that say "You should start raiding. Anytime is a good time." *This is just a plain lie.* The best time to get into Savage is to do so on release. Very few people point out how bad it's going to be if you start late. I play on Aether and I see people running savage content all the time, so I figured it would be ok to start late so I'm not a total idiot going into it. This was my biggest mistake. Not a single person pointed out that if you start late, you'll get bottom of the barrel players. It all makes sense now. The people who cleared have no reason to do it anymore unless they are helping friends or doing it for fun. When the next tier drops, I'll be doing it on release and I'm certain I won't struggle as nearly as much as I did starting late. I also plan on doing FRU starting Tuesday after my reclears.
@@Kenshin6321 It depends on the player and their situation. Many players that "start out with savage" are also novices and need to learn the ropes. Starting late isn't bad for them, though it would probably be much better in a casual static. Thats how I started out. End of Shadowbringers, casual static, long after echo was active in E9S-E12S. Obviously the static couldn't hold me much, so I cleared P1S-P4S in PF and found a more dedicated group to move on to. There was no hard feelings either, on the contrary, I regularly helped out the casual group when they were down a player. And they very much understood if I stayed it would cause a lot of friction. I wish you the best of luck - savage on release is a different beast difficulty-wise but also a lot more fun. FRU right now feels bad to me in PF, the ultimate being easier than TOP/DSR attracted a lot of that bad crowd you are trying to avoid (on EU at least, no idea about NA). I've seen some really insane statements, opinions and more in PF this week. Week 1/2 it was quite wholesome. Prog lying wasn't much of an issue either.
@@menardyxiv I also can't speak to how it's like in EU, but I play on the most populated DC in NA (Aether). The people here are just a mess sometimes. During a run, whenever I see someone messing up on something they should know, I ask "do you know how to do this? This isn't an attack on you, I just want to help you because we see you're messing up." And yes, everyone makes mistakes from time to time, especially if you've been playing for a long time, but you don't consistently make the same mistake over and over if you know the fight. I also wish the best luck in EU. I also expect when the new tier drops, I"ll be dealing with way less prog liars because everyone is still learning, but the most fun I've had (besides clearing) is actually learning the fights. Learning fights with everyone is quite enjoyable.
@@Kenshin6321 Well today (or tomorrow for you ig) you can have that in chaotic alliance raids. Even if you're not into 24-man, I wouldn't miss out, some of the gear can replace tome gear for alt jobs and for healers its straight BiS (because we dont have non-piety options for gloves/boots). I just got another clear for FRU but finally on tank, so I'm quite happy today.
Lying is not tolerated. IRL scenario you don't forgive your cheating gf as they did it once, they can always do it twice. Lying about prog point is akin to taking people's time to their own. Always be Honest even if you suck, it's the party member who will decide if it's alright for them to help you.
Before I got my clear for M4S, I joined a pf for Uptime Sunrise *Prog* and we kept wiping to P1 because the pf lead self admitted to "still messing up P1." I left this party for an enrage party right after and that SAME pf lead joined after me despite causing a train wreck in their own pf.
I didn't even know raid parasites were a thing until seeing this video. I started learning savage about a month ago and honestly, I feel like I've encountered a few without realizing it. Not sure if this is a raid parasite or not but in an M2S heartsick prog we would get to enrage about 3 times but we would always die because of one dps pulling less damage than both of our healers.
As shameful as it is, I once was a prog liar when I was progging Weapons Refrain Ultimate. I wanted that diamond weapon so badly that I struggled in party finder, I would even say it was pure horror. When I only had the last few Ultima mechanics to prog I found it hard to find groups on PF, so I would join one that is doing a mechanic ahead of my prog which resulted in me fucking up and ruining it for everyone. (Ultimate Suppression) So please, ask questions, prog, learn before you join parties and wipe. Good thing is once you do it once it comes natural to repeat for reclears.
Technically Prog liars were the reason why I stuck at clearing P8S and then refrained from clearing P9S-P12S. Every time I get a good prog, the next 3-4 times are going to be the worst nightmare. At snakes. It's always snakes. SNAKES!!!
Joining something past your prog is the only way to fly in PF. How the hell am I supposed to see the sht that comes after if everyone else is lying and scuffing my prog?
This reminds me of wow days back in lichking where you "had" to have gear level higher than the raid was even giving and in order to start getting raiding gear you would need addons to "spoof" your ilvl. you would wait a half hour to an hour to get a group together and sometimes you would breeze through it because of the high geared people, and other times after the hour most of your group had awful gear and the raid would turn into a trainwreck.
What’s wrong with you having cleared on week 4? I guess missing out on books can suck but like let’s say you were trying for a week one clear and you didn’t get it that’s on you? I cleared at like week 6-7 cuz I only even started M1 prog in week 4 or so but that’s just cuz I went slow and took my time. That’s on me even if I ran into plenty trap parties going for my M4 clear yknow
@@lemontonk The issue isn't when I cleared but why; I started the tier on the day of release and if I didn't have people lying about their prog point I wouldn't have been reduced to looking for C41 groups just to get me my clear from those who still die to beat 1 in M2S or fusedown in M3S, in a CLEAR group.
@@lemontonk Because by saying "yeah...I cleared the whole raid tier in week four ugh" they think that will somehow validate that they are good players and they could've cleared in day 1 if it wasn't for something holding them back.
Yokai if you think about it and dont get insecure someone killed earlier then you If they started on release and then got stuck for 1 or 2 weeks purely cause they couldnt prog cause people were lying, others dont like their time wasted but ig you do?
@@Rhaya02 it's pretty much this. it's more relevant in ultimates since you got harder mechs and a longer fight. but even in the new Extreme, you got someone joining a duty complete party (a farm party as well) and that person can't even do Earth stage correctly and if they do they'll mess up ice stage. and this continues for 3-4 pulls till someone is done, leaves the party and then the PF sheep mentality kicks in and everyone leaves to quickly join another party.
@ real talk. I think you have great advice. I throughout EW, I would typically look over people’s logs if I’m hosting a full savage reclear party, to ensure the other players stick around and don’t feel like their time is wasted. And in DSR/TOP I would typically just ask them a specific question about a mechanic they would only know if they had experience in the fight. Also 90% of the time you can avoid so much pain by avoiding any PF that mentions a Hector strat, which in my experience is almost never the PF strat I see parties that actual clear using.
Was stuck in predation in uwu for weeks, joined an annihilation prog and cleared in a few pulls. Prog lying is actually good when you’re good at the game but you always get bad teammates.
I am a prog liar, I lie to the next relevant mechanic. Example: M4S I completely understood Midnight Sabath after the third time. No more issues there, so I go for a Sunrise Sabath party. Have I ever been to Sunrise? No. But it doesn‘t matter since I will not waste my time with randoms who need multiple lockouts for midnight when I am further than that. Also I heavily use my blacklist, but I clear it for every new raid tier (except very special people), people can improve but I don‘t think they can be improved within one week. I blacklist for following reasons: -Luring players into an unmarked KFF party -Doing your rotation so bad that everyone else has to noticably make up for your damage (melee below tank kinda thing) -Being an a-hole -Being the resonsible for 9/10 wipes
Had someone join our EX3 "from ice onwards aiming to clear" party and say something like "hey guys :D i haven't done the fight but i learn fast and i've seen the guide many times". We were kinda surprised someone would be so blatantly honest about wanting to sabotage us lol. The leader gave it a go once or twice but it was very obvious this person couldn't do much because they didn't have the practice, so we kicked them but man. What's up with people? I know liars have been around since forever, but I feel like the quality of pf is much worse this time around. Not only that, but i also get a lot of people who straight up can't play in normal lvl 100 duties.
That's not a new problem. Maybe it wasn't as apparent before, but I've had people struggle in EW as much as in DT. It's hard for me to judge if it got worse, because the savage tier is quite different in the style of its failure states. In dungeons and other easy content it feels the same to me. Only at the very start of DT it seemed quite extreme with how some struggled with certain bosses (all 3 100 dungeons, their first bosses).
Wait, so I've only gotten to the part where I'm going to meet Hraesvelgr in Heavensward. Are these people lying about having done the fight before or something? Am I not far enough along to even have to care about watching this video or something??
People are typically really nice to sprouts and will let you enjoy msq. The toxicity dosent start until endgame and only really if youre going for extremes and up
While I've personally lied about prog points in the past (joined an E12S Triple Apoc prog to A2C when I was fresh for P2, and joining an A2C P12S party when I haven't even seen Caloric 2--both of which cleared in that same parties I joined in), I personally know what I am capable of as a raider after raiding for 6 years now. I would never dare join a party where the prog point I have not theoretically grasp. If you are more of an experience the mech to understand it kinda guy, then you'd rather join parties with your prog point or even earlier. Not everyone has the same way of learning.
I feel I would be the one that others would take advantage of. I don't do PF too much, but as soon as I join a party, I talk with the leader telling them some of my concerns learning an mechanic if its a prog party, and see if that vibes with them. I try to be as respectful as I can towards people's time because progging a fight and getting no where for hours is a horrible feeling, and I would never want to be the person to do that to someone, or a group of people.
True dat! I just watch guides now before going in and asking questions. Im a simple person. Even when the party leader tries to explain stuff they be like, "Dps you have to stand opposite of the clockwise position of your intercardinal way point XYZ for the raid wide to pop and then do a handstand while singing ABC in reverse order before etc." Like I barely even know wtf they be saying with all those acronyms. One guide and I practically know the fight lol.
This has gotten so bad that I just don't use PF any more. If my static is missing a player and we can't get someone that we know to fill, we just cancel. I'm not waiting hours for a party to fill only to never see my prog point because some entitled turbocasual thinks it's ok to waste everyone else's time.
i had a phase 2 pf of chaotic alliance raid i joined and 5 people we watching cutscene fully we never saw phase 2 gotta love there being no way to know for sure before starting what peoples prog points are
I mean - I also just today had a player in my alliance in a kill party that watched cutscene and had never done the fight before. They were promptly kicked (after 1-2 pulls where we confirmed they were in fact clueless, could have been an alt too). People have no respect...
I encourage *some* of my friends to prog lie and I do it myself. The ones I suggest this to are always the ones I have confidence in being able to learn a mechanic quickly and catching up asap. I've prog lied for years now and the only time it bit me in the ass was Caloric theory in p12s p2. I ended up not understanding how that mechanic worked at all when I was researching it compared to every other mechanic. I held back parties that one time cause of it.
yeah... if my prog progression is lightly off the prog status declared in the pf description, first thing i do is ask if its ok to join, happened day 2 on sphene prog, i just reached earth tower from previous day while they searched for meteors, they said ok, so my conciousness was clean ^^. but yeah... happened to see alot of people who were hardstuck in earth phase even if it stateted stuff like coronation or ice phase...
I really hope you enjoyed this video, it took a lot of hard work to put it together. Read the description for some context. And again, just to ensure everyone sees this: *The DRK in the clip is NOT the one the story is about.*
idk what I might do if you stop uploading
I hope I won't meet prog liars again when I continue tomorrow to prog Satasha
Not gonna lie, you had me there for a min 😂
This comment is underrated lmao
Good luck bro. Nobody stands on the floor hatches.
@@Lightwarden_Epithumia What about it is underrated? Assuming he meant "Sastasha" he even got the spelling wrong.
@ the fact that it was a joke that people won’t understand and overthink it
being a prog parasite is only okay when I do it
fr fr
The mentality of everyone in PF
Same, except it was my ex always lying about me and telling me to play along
@@arogon8797 speak for yourself i've never done that shit
Remember, your prog point isn't making it to a mechanic once. It's making it to that mechanic consistency.
Exactly. If you are joining a group that says "practicing C", you're implicitly saying that you can do mechanics A and B damn near perfectly.
@@MyVanir I don't agree with that cause mistakes happens so perfection is not possible.
@@kimaki6866 Once or twice, but all the time as if you never learned the mechanic? That is a difference.
@@thecrowonyourshoulder for sure all the time is pretty sus (could be a bad day though happens) but it's just the "perfect" that i noticed there.
@@kimaki6866 I did not ask for perfection.
Prog fatigue is a thing. When you do a fight for too long you start messing up mechanics you thought you mastered.
There are people that no-life this game to the point where they too start messing up mechanics due to fatigue or hit box miscalculation.
But most of the time, the person consistently fucking up halfway to the target prog point is not tired. And if it is someone who is tired, they 1. have the bare decency to communicate with their group and apologize and 2. get the hint after a while and leave. If someone is tired, but doesn't leave after half an hour of causing back to back wipes, they are throwing just as hard as the prog liars.
Making a mistake is different than being utterly lost on a mechanic. With some experience you can tell the difference. And even then, just because you made a mistake or two (or even three) thats not enough to call you out. At least, for me it isn't.
If you have a really really bad day - then you should probably leave and do something else for a bit anyway, not for the party, but for your own sanity. Messing up over and over feels terrible. Dont put yourself in such a situation if you can avoid it.
@@Glenningway in the context of an ultimate. Expectation is key. Understand the skill level of the group you’re raiding with prior to making any commitments. 99% of non-loot-related raid drama is caused by discrepancy in player skill levels: ie like one player slower learning, or on average-making the majority of the teams mistakes/wipes.
Anything above semi-hard core (or w/e it’s called) it’s sorta assumed that mistakes leading up to a prog point should be an exception, and it’s not uncommon to see groups consistently perform up to the prog point in a skilled group (even in PF). If you’re not confident in your ability to perform and execute at 90% in content you have already progged through and know-then this is a really good indicator that you should seek more casual raiding groups. Again the key difference between an on patch semi-hardcore team is consistency.
If you are tired you should not be queueing into high-end duties to drag everyone down lmao this is just as toxic as prog lying. Go rest.
@@MyVanir THIS. I don't no-life the game anymore because of time but short time ago I was tired and brain fogged in a weekend morning. Nuked a dps once, got a few damage downs in a single run, eventually wiped the group twice and I knew inside my foggy head I myself didn't even fully know how I made that mistake. Said sorry I'm effing up too much and left the group. Went for a break, cleared like nothing when I came back. A prog liar stays in the group wiping over and over.
The main frustration that causes prog-lying, is attempting to prog a phase you are able to execute consistently, however, all you've seen are PF-members/party members, die over and over again to the same stupid sh*t that they should really know how to do and thus you spend 2+ hours getting 0 progress, and so you decide to join a group that is actually competant enough to do it.
This is how I tend to do PF. Once I feel competent at a mechanic and know I'm doing my part of it correctly, I will join a group for the next one if the group I'm with isn't making any progress. I've learned it's really the only way to not get stuck.
That is the only way to raid in PF if you ever hope to clear. The main frustration isn't just from people making the same stupid mistakes over and over, it's the party leads who are too scared to grow a spine and kick them to refill, so instead of replacing 1 person you gotta find a whole new party.
@@theyandereprince I think the issue with party leaders is that once someone leaves the party (for themselves or kicked) everyone leaves as well. Maybe if we get more vocal about kicking prog-liers this could be mitigated, but I duno
Exactly. This happened to me recently on Sphene EX where I had seen and wanted to prog the ice phase but every ice prog party I've joined wiped to meteors over and over. I ended up biting the bullet and joined a phase 2 Prog party and cleared after 3 pulls.
I cant do Ults with statics because of my work times, so I can only maybe clear it in PF. Best example FRU P1, I wrote something Conga Prog, even though I could prog from Start P2, but I didnt prog Conga with PF Strat, but from a static searching in PF. Now I wait for several hours to fill (Conga filling better then From Start Party, which is just horrible, not getting into new Content) when we filled people just did the wildest mistakes, even before reaching Conga, just to be disbanded and new start of Waiting Sim. How should a person with busy times even get into this content?
Three options for starting fresh in Party Finder:
1. “Enrage prog? Oh no worries, I have seen enrage on RUclips.”
2. “Clear party? Well, I certainly do want to clear…”
3. “c41? Sure - clear for 1 half of the party”
"Clear for 1 party, right?"
C41 is my favorite when it's just the host in the party. Sooo what you want a carry?
@@shadowsenpai2395 Clear for a friend, I am the friend
@@shadowsenpai2395 i sometimes join c41 to help out once done with things, sometimes it is that they want a carry, but sometimes people just get pissed about not being able to get a clear in a clear party... people dont have to join, but a lot of people actually like to just help out. Also in ultimates, c41 or clear parties go much better than actual reclears for some reason...
As I played for 10 years I met countless of these people but there’s a triple amount starting Shadowbringers and onward. 🤧
My prog will take months but my karma will be so sterile you could perform a heart surgery in it.
Networking is the key to success in ultimate PF - I especially recommend forming a PF linkshell. People tend to develop an understanding of where others are in the fight, and so if they're aware you've been trapped for a while and got left behind while others "had their passport stamped" in a fortunate party, they'll be more gracious towards catching you up. My mindset towards progging ultimate raids in PF is to build consistency on earlier phases and good karma through helping parties behind you, then spending that accumulated good karma if a small jump forward is necessary - once you feel solidly confident through studying, vod review, and simming, of course.
It's sad how common prog lying has become. I like to stay thruthful or if I join a group that is a little further ahead, I prefer to ask first if they are fine with it. But having cleared TOP during 6.5 in PF, tomestone quickly became my best friend
It shows the state of the game and its community. Nobody wants to teach fights because a lot of them are really bad to teach. And the lack of tactility between player and mechanics due to the overly used pixel-perfect "stand and let thing resolve" mechanics design makes it really hard for them to stick and it is damn near impossible to teach hard FFXIV content without visuals. The limited camera zoom and desync doesn't help either when trying to advice a player in real-time. This is why people will always tell you to watch a video guide and as someone who actively teaches hard content in many games, I don't personally condone this behavior but I make an exception for FFXIV because everything is abstract until someone sees it and by the time you see anything, the game gives you too little time to understand and react and it's already too late and now you've got half the party wondering if they did something wrong
Try sherpa'ing/teaching raids and multiple games for a while and eventually you'll wanna stop teaching EXs/Savage/Ults like I did.
Trying to learn FFXIV without a video guide and having someone teach you is effectively self-imposed gaslighting
The problem is that everyone can't be 100% honest about it because there simply isn't enough people doing every content for this to be possible. To some degree, everyone will have to jump ahead, or backwards from where they are due to a lack of players.
@@2inverse469 I am not against prog lying per say. I think it becomes an issue in ultimates for example when people lie about a prog point that is easily a whole phase ahead. One or two mechanics is something you can deal with (sure can depend on the mechanic)
@@2inverse469 You can absolutely still be honest about your progress even if you're joining a party that's beyond your current prog point. Just ask if it's okay. You will find groups that are okay accommodating you and catching you up to speed. If you lie, you just set up an unfair expectation about your experience, and it makes it unnecessarily difficult to accommodate you. Instead of being able to provide tips and help point out where you're going wrong so you can improve I have to decide I have to sit there and pretend I haven't noticed you've likely lied about your experience because if I do treat you like someone who's inexperienced you might get defensive in order to maintain your lie, which just slows down prog.
The people who feel like the solution to their prog issues is to lie to others are almost always worse to play with and slower to catch up than someone who's honest about not having experience.
@@2inverse469 Not having enough people does not stop people from being honest about their prog point, what are you on about? Lying about prog point to join and asking the pf host if you can join with an earlier prog point are not the same and it is better to stay 3 hours waiting in PF than an hour filling the group and 2 hours without reaching your target mechanic.
Prog lying is 100% negative, toxic behavior that should not be tolerated.
The problem, to me, comes not only from the lie itself but also when people keep it secret. A raid group never works when people keep secrets to themselves, like when they die to a mechanic because they have no idea how to resolve it but they keep that a secret in hopes nobody notices them, or ending up resolving it by sheer luck, or they die and get rezzed past it. I've been in groups where people lie about their progress but they're honest about it, so it makes it easier to work around that so the group can stand on the same foot as soon as possible, but every time people keep their "secret" to themselves, it makes it very frustrating cuz it ends up being a huge waste of time for both the liar and the rest of the group for the sake of avoiding the embarassment.
bro just tricked a bunch of ff14 players to watch a lecture on game theory
bro uploaded a video using multiple plugins lmao. ban inc?
Great video! FRU being the first ultimate since Tomestone's release should be interesting for PF. A surprising amount of people still don't know about it, but I imagine cooperation will be much more encouraged because liars can be spotted easily ahead of time.
I don't play this game, and I am super high right now, and this video showed up in my feed. Good video though. Cheers.
Haha, guess my thumbnail, title and hook are doing its work, glad to see. The Game Theory part of the video can be quite useful to you even if you have not a single clue about FFXIV or MMOs in general.
Sometimes I think it's a different kind of misjudgement.
say your last party reached the advertised prog point 50% of the time. You feel like nearly all of the wipes before are not on you. It's easy to assume YOUR prog point is the neext mechanic and only the rest of tghe group did not make it there consistantly. Some may also just limping there with rezzes, which means actually less than 50% is the times you actually did the previous mechanic right
You may also misjudge how many of the wipes are on you, by misunderstanding something BECAUSE it is your ACTUAL prog point.
So thats a situation were I think it's common and easy to misjudge what your prog point is. but as you said, that usually leads to a relativly small offence
I think this is definitely part of it that didn't get discussed, yeah. What 'prog point' means to people drastically varies I've noticed. To some, a prog point is where you can get to consistently. While to some it's the furthest you've seen, even if you aren't comfortable with it.
Thats a topic for another video. It is complex enough that it varrants a thorough explanation.
I'mma get hate for this but I don't care. I think the entire attitude that prompted you to make this video in the first place is why prog lying is even a thing to talk about. You talked about motivation solely in the context of what they might get out of lying, namely easier progression in a raid. That is definitely true for some people, but I don't think the majority of people in raids are that selfish. Research indicates the the motivation to lie to avoid negative judgement is much more common than lying for personal gain. I think the reason you see prog liars is that many of them tried to get a group going, but it couldn't get off the ground for reason XYZ. So they try to join any group, and to avoid being instantly booted or shamed for sucking, they just pretend they're further along and hope to god they can pull it off. I don't believe it is any deeper than that most of the time.
this tier was the first tier i ever did savage so i had a friend helping me out. he would consistently throw me into parties above my prog point cause he said "you should be able to do it." it made me feel so bad cause i was not able to keep up... im afraid how many people blacklisted me for that.
shouldve just apologized and left
i also had a friend encouraging me because he also believed in me being good... i know he was a good player and fast learner so he was definitely competent enough to "proglie" but i was in fact not
i felt bad holding parties back when i tried it so i would apologize for griefing and leave if i felt like i couldnt make it to the actual prog point and just went back to being honest lol
I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally don't even go out of my way to blacklist people for exp faking, unless it's a really atrocious case. Like someone who has a big mouth, but keeps wiping the group, blaming others or never saying "mb" in chat. (Don't nail me down on it, it's always a combination of multiple or all factors, not just one)
And It's pretty much a common sight to see these groups where you have an ultimate raider who really carries the group, who also invites a poor friend who gets way too much on his plate. xD He was probably well-meaning, but should have taken more time. I wouldn't blame you if I was in one of these groups.
@walwal6449 yeah i ended up joining other prog parties that were actually at my point and now ive managed to clear the tier. it was just frustrating cause i kept being told the only way to prog was to lie...
Bro why did I get recommended this video just now? This is too spooky.
It's a shame the NA community seems to be deathly allergic to blind prog parties after the first couple hours of a patch.
Yeah, prog lying is one thing, but people whove already cleared joining my ice prog and getting mad when i cant consistently clear the mechanic is a whole nother thing.
I have never seen someone explaining raiding with game theory until this one, so thumbs up!! 🔥
I have an experienced raid friend who mentioned this before, I'm recently getting into savages after playing for 4+years and being called out as a griefer when I'm just bad at the game made me put it off for so long. Thankfully joining freash prog groups has made me learn fights enough to almost clear(m1s) and slowly getting better at just leaning fights and not thinking of bosses as training dummies.
this might sound harsh but it'll be the best bit of advice you'll ever hear, both IRL and for multiplayer games.
don't care what others think of you.
if you're honest with your prog, for example you're on beat 1 prog for M2S and you join a party for beat 1 prog and onwards, you're honesty, if someone calls you a griefer, so be it, why would you care, you'll likely never gonna see or hear that person ever again in your life.
prog at your own speed and if someone outright calls you a griefer, just shrug it off.
if someone asks you why you're messing up, just be honest, generally people are willing to explain to you what you're doing wrong and how to fix it, it's just that a lot of people nowadays instantly get defensive when they get called out.
@@DarkDyllon Agreed. Don't be defensive out of nowhere. I'm gonna be far more patient with someone that says "I'm kinda new to savage" than someone that says "Well I guess I just suck then, huh?" And I'll be more patient with that second person than someone that says "Just leave me alone and do your own thing."
You were called a griefer because you were in a prog party instead of a [Practice] blind from start, no guide.
@@SapphireDragon357 pretty much, you see this quite a bit in ultimate reclear parties, where you get someone who either hasn't done the fight for a long time and is clearly rusty, or someone who just freshly cleared, made it barely, but then joins farm parties because "I cleared"
Had this a few times where me or someone else calls that person out and they instantly go "I wasn't messing up all the time! messed up more!"
like ... buddy, I don't care, you're the 1 that's actively messing up, acknowledge it and fix it, or piss off, we're here for a reclear, not to prog your rustyness or lack of experience.
I've been doing TOP for a few weeks now. After the first few days, i got a good handle on P1. For the next few days (5+), I saw party synergy maybe 10 times total. About a week later, I've seen party synergy enough and feel like I'm ready for the next step, but all P2 prog is just endless looper, people grabbing wrong tethers, not flexing properly (3/5 panto splits) and it feels like there's just no world where I get to phase 3. It's all 10+ pulls to see 1 party synergy at this point.
Yep! Exactly thats why I used TOP as an example where you can get completely stuck by being honest.
same, ended up paying random [Duty Complete] people for prog
Seems like it hasn't changed since back then. It was the same when TOP came out. It was simply impossible to reach p3 and p3 prog partys became more rare as more people progressed to p4/p5. I decided to prog lie out of frustration with p2 partys and joined a p4 from the start party, because i was confident in my ability to convert theory into gameplay. We got to Monitors on like our second pull and started doing p4 some pulls later. Im never proud of prog lying, but on the other hand i have the confidence to say that i can backup everything through my gameplay.
@@kunstlerischesetwas1284 Some people, like myself can see something and put it into action easier. Back in O12S, I watched a guide and joined a clear party and we cleared first pull. If you can see something and put it into action after 1 or 2 times of seeing it, I don’t think that’s prog lying. The people who KNOW they can’t do it are lying. But it’s funny when people who progged further mess up earlier it’s just “my bad” and if YOU mess up earlier than the prog point it’s “wow are you really even there?” Type shit lol.
@@kunstlerischesetwas1284 To be honest, if you prepared accordingly, and were willing to tap out if you were anchoring the group - I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Like, yeah, it's super frustrating feeling like you might be contributing to the problem, but I feel like genuinely preparing for the mechanic ahead of time is enough to separate you from real prog liars.
This issue of Prog liars has really struck a cord with me recently, particularly with the new EX3 (Sphene's Burden). Maybe it's just me, but I feel that a lot of players are struggling with the ice phase in this fight, especially the bridge crossing. A lot of players making mistakes on this part even when in a 'duty complete/farm' party. It feels like a player gets a 'lucky clear' and then immediately jump into a farming party hoping to get carried, instead of staying in practice parties to polish their mechanics.
Ice phase has been such an awful experience. I went 5 days without a single clear because every party I joined had people who couldn't do it properly, even after going over fixed bridges several times. Worst part is it's not even a hard mechanic, people are just far too impatient.
Was doing this fight last night and had to reform the party like 6+ times before found a group that could consistently clear. There was always one person that would consistently screw up bridges and/or tethers and wipe the party.
The funny part is those people were almost always the first to silently dip from the group and cause a disband. At that point I was willing to sit through ice prog again just to get a group that could clear but nope, no patience from them I guess.
Prog lying is bad (except when I do it cuz I’m fucking goated)
Literally everyone but few will admit it
When someone says they are on a mech, they mean they got there one time by chance and the party they were with resolved it while they were dead.
So you know...that's the mech, "They are on".
Literally my former raid lead did this when we were progging p8s. I tried to push back that no we weren't consistently on x prog, we got there by a fluke but they threw up the PF with the lie-prog-point anyway. I did not stay long lol; it make me feel icky.
Oof, lol yeah. That was my first raid tier. Saw a lot of Ruby 5/6/Enrage parties, but what they actually meant is, we got through devour once.
The problem is simple. Someone sees x mechanic ONCE and they now think they're at x prog point. Its the ccommunity's fault for the toxic positivity of "omg we made prog, yay!"
I treat prog lying similar how I apply to jobs - if it's something I know I can do, I lie, join, do the thing, then be on my way. No harm done.
The only time prog lying is a problem is when people know full well they aren't capable.
TBH since that new website launched its much harder for prog liars though. It shows really well how far someones actually got before.
My friend and I have a running joke that if we want to practice a specific phase of a fight, we should be joining a group that practice the phase *after*. Because everytime, the other players just die to the phase before the one we're supposed to be practicing.
Since everybody know less than they say they do, when I get into prog party where I actually am progging, ppl can't get to the prog point.
So I get into a prog party beyond where I actually am. And guess what, more times than not i end up progging the right part, not what is actually said on pf description.
90% of ppl are prog liars.
This was my first savage tier and I had the same experience. If I joined M4S intermission prog, the group would be stuck wiping to electrope edge 2. If I joined midnight sabbath prog, we'd be progging intermission. So I was put in a situation where I was essentially forced to lie about my prog point because otherwise I wouldn't actually be able to prog. I always felt bad about it, but it was the only way.
While I can see your frustration, keep in mind the image I show at 1:10 - even if noone is proglying, all of the party will be inconsistent on the 1-2 mechs leading up to the prog-point. Thats normal. If they never reach the prog-point its especially frustrating. I can tell you from my static though (where everyone is exactly at the same prog point) - there is days you can't reach the last mechanic you saw previously. Its consistency training then and absolutely required and necessary.
Its just, this doesn't translate. In a static you get something out of it, because everyone in it gets better on the mechs before where they are shaky. In PF you dont see the same people again, usually, so that consistency practice you did only helps yourself. If you are pretty consistent on the mechanics leading up to the one you want to practice, joining for a little bit further tends to be viable, without really lying or hurting anyone, as others will be as conistent or maybe even less at that point.
The issue is more when people default do that without even attempting to join at their prog point and without having the consistency to not grief.
I also like to liken it to tragedy of the commons, where ppl behave in a way that collectively is a negative benefit for their own personal gain (but everyone does it and drags down the median) rather than cooperating
I've always used the 3 strike rule. If you fail 3 times before the point in the fight we are progging you are out
I really like the topic and the way you covered it!
I prog lied once for DSR PF, and was more consistent than the entire party before the prog point and never saw the phase 5 in question. Tomestone is a good tool, but sometimes even Tomestone is a problem because they reached the prog point once by luck by being the parasite in question and is not even consistent before. It's an endless problem. I never prog lie since that event, but it tends to frustrate me to be stuck endlessly on previous phases due to this lack of consistency I see everyday in PF.
And don't make me start talk about plugins that helps people do fights. On patch day last week it took me 6 hours to do reclears after work because of people not having plugins and failing at early fight mechanics, from M1 to M4. Both are an issue with end game content, prog liars, and plugins.
you can generally see in a person's movement if they're comfortable with the mechanic or not.
in DSR for example when I was helping out a few people, 2 of them instantly walked to the proper spots for P3 dives.
1 person however either arrived just on time or messed up constantly. (that person was a DRK, so it's not a casting issue, especially since I cleared DSR on RDM and i'm always way on time for anything in P3)
movement can be an easy indicator if someone is lying or not, if you're not comfortable with a mechanic, you're not done progging that, if you monkaSteer past that mechanic, you're not magically on "P4 prog"
Was trying to help my sprout friend with her first M1S clear after she saw to Raining Cats in practice parties and we'd gotten the boss down to 5%. After 4 hours of c41s, we eventually just joined a weekly 2-chest that hadnt locked their party to Duty Complete. We asked if she was okay to join having not cleared, and the lead didn't mind.
We then spent the next 90 minutes having to explain various mechanics and methods of solving them to at least 5 other people in the group. Including the lead.
We did not get her the clear.
Sad, but yeah, when you are clear-ready, like, properly clear-ready, asking to join a weekly 2 chest is a great idea. You're asking, so if they don't want it, they don't have to invite you. Most won't mind. Its also extra tomestones, so its not like the party doesn't get a little something out of it as well.
I definitely think TOP has had the most prog liars for me personally in any ULT when trying to help people clear. It's rampant
Very interesting and informative video, liked how you applied game theory to help apply an effective strategy for progging in pf.
im the direct opposite of a prog liar.
i often join groups that are 2-3 mechanics behind, because even though i've reached that mechanic, i don't feel confident enough to consistently get there.
In OCE it's sadly a little difficult, especially in Ults. I can attest that I actually had to lie about my prog in UCOB to actually clear that one. Cause I was Adds and had it all down pat having seen every quote after a few pulls there yet there was always (weirdly enough helpers were the worst for it) someone who'd eat a twister or have fun with the tankswaps or misread the quotes. So I saw a Golden A2C and I just decided to send it and got the clear on the first Golden pull (out of two total pulls because Nael memes), granted while nerves did make me eat an exaflare halfway thru golden, I was doing well til then.
As for experience in real ults (Alexander and up) my god it was awful. There was this one guy in OCE TEA (iykyk who) who was 'wormhole' but was basically hardstuck BJCC because he got most of the DCs community to BL him because he always overstated his prog point. Another aspect of that is that in OCE it's really, really harder to deal with prog liars because the Ult community is so small that it may very well be better to deal with having someone one mechanic behind than PF'ing for three hours before disband. DSR was a little bit worse, but people generally were open with eachother about where they were at and would /tell asking if they could join up from earlier prog.
The absolute worst ult for prog lying was UWU though, actual brainworms trying to PF that damn Ultimate, only time I actually went out of my way to find a static because the DRK that did zero mits and oGCD and had the absolute audacity to ask for some of my food mid-instance would be in every party I joined.
So to my mind I actually accept prog 'liars' into my party if they ask and are honest about it (along with party's approval) just because of the realities of progging Ultimates in a somewhat-dead DC sometimes just come down to having to make pragmatic choices. I'd rather be in instance at one prog point away than spend twelve hours in PF (yes, really) and not actually seeing the advertised prog point within thirty minutes.
TOP I haven't done completely since I think DSR burned me hard mentally and I've never been able to recover enough to be able to try for it good and proper (hit P4 enrage/P5 prog). But TOP was overall better in terms of player quality, but once you hit P5 it got very clear who was actually consistent at mechanics before that and was less a matter of lying and more a matter of people's brains melting out of their ears.
one day i joined a c41 for TEA, after 20min of wiping to LL and another 15 in BJCC wiping due to a melee (the party leader) missing water stack we finally got to timestop, after having enough i decided to bust out the tome to find that the melee was actually at like 27% on LL. The man prog lied his way through all of LC, BJCC and to timestop in just 45min. I mentioned this is party chat to which the party obviously disbanded. The melee then posted the log, updating his tomestone, and put up a new pf titled "Inception prog." I will never forget his name, i was so tilted.
Ive also noticed people who are progging or progged in a static join PFs of equal prog point, which should seem fine until they dont know what strats the pf does and decide the best place to learn the early phase strat diff between their static and the pf is in totem farm parties
Now do a video about the experienced players that sign up for beginner/casual statics or PF groups and ruin the experience for everyone else by being super passive aggressive and/or outright toxic. Also a super bad time 😂
and tank players or other players who jump into a PF that has established strats the the whole group is using already and try to make the group do a different strat. Had that happen to my static for M1S. A tank decided that he was gonna do his preferred strat and kept throwing us off. He was the only pug in the group. We are a fresh static where a lot of us haven't even cleared a raid tier before. We even mentioned that in the PF description lol
Had a tank and healer join together who immidiately ignored the strats that were advertised and would throw if either of them died once and blamed it on everyone else.
video was hard to follow because the terms used were tailored to explaining the prisoner's dilemma, while the video was trying to explain prog lying in pf; could've been easier to follow if you curated an example of the prisoner's dilemma using a pf setting instead and explained it that way.
This actually killed me because I was thinking about this topic all day today. I was trying to clear Sphene Extreme yesterday and all the "clear" groups I joined couldn't get past meteors and I was going insane. Also great explanation of the prisoner's dilemma, sounded just like a college game theory course!
honetly same
Glad to hear - I studied game design and worked professionally as game designer so if I didn't manage to explain this bit of game theory I would be disappointed in myself.
Oh and yeah... Sphene Extreme is rough. I haven't seen such a shitshow in a while. Ice phase is the bane of any farm party. Last time it was this bad was with Barbaricca and I swear it wasn't THAT bad.
And the fight isn't even difficult. It just really emphasizes the weaknesses of PF.
@@menardyxiv all the pf groups I joined barely have passed meteors its so bad I've only seen ice 3 x times and enrage once
@@menardyxiv the amount of times the PF says "static bridges" and then the OT, M2, R2 or H2 runs on the top bridge for their spot, even though their bridge is the south bridge and then kill me because of it.
then they go "oh oops" and move on, like dude, you just wasted so much time and an easy clear because you wanted to hold W instead of taking your proper bridge.
People lying about their true prog point or in a PF description is the equivalent of lying on your resume and hoping you get the job without anyone noticing.
A very well written script with great explanations. Love the fact you included scientific terms to prove your point.
You deserved a sub ma man 👍
My entire M4S experience this tier was basically summed up by prog lying, just so many parties that claimed to be even at intermission or further, then one or two players would cause EE2 wipes. So it was rather infuriating having to sit in pf for 20-30 minutes, go in, constantly wipe to EE2 cause of one or two people trying to basically scam their way further into the fight, one person leaves after 3 or 4 pulls cause no actual prog is being made, rest of the party explodes or enough leave, then back to another 20-30 minutes in PF.
It was almost always that kind of domino effect too that was almost always kicked off by someone trying to scam their way higher into the fight or had only seen the prog point mechanic once. And I'll be honest, it almost ruined the experience, before this tier, I usually ran with a static, but this tier I had to do PF cause my schedule just wouldn't allow for one.
This was so damn prevalent in P3S. Every clear party was numbers or adds prog
Before 7.0 I was trying to prog P9S, and when my static stopped, I tried PF. Not a good experience. Party pulled a couple times and then disbanded. It was a cleanup party that I joined because I've consistently done JP Levinstrike and reached enrage a couple times with minor issues. Some people were there that played like they haven't even SEEN the normal version.
The only time I joined a group with a prog point further than mine was on TOP. I was consistent up to p5, cleared delta a few times but the parties for sigma weren't consistent throughout the earlier phases. Didn't lie though, I shot a dm to the party leader and they agreed to let me in their omega group. Ended up reaching p6 and clearing with them a few days later.
Remember that there is an even more powerful tool than blacklist for progging ultimates. Friendlist. Add people, bond, network, talk and be honest, create LS, discords, whatever you prefer. Ultimate prog shows how someone is both as a person and as a player. Parses are almost entirely irrelevant to the skill of progging (within a reasonnable range though). Having a pool of good players to play with without the constraints of a static is a great way to make pf enjoyable and make friends along the way.
I sometimes join random parties at random points of prog and try to help in fights I have cleared. Sometimes I also host clear parties but I don't need the clear I try to give others the clear. In my experience doing this for a long time now, It's the ones who leave at the slightest hinderance who are the smartest or the most problematic. People always send me tells to "Clear on alt" or asking if they can join the party for clear. I always leave their fate to the party and majority of the time people are merciful.
Ff players would do well to remember the streisand effect exists. I raid in static now since I got a job. But when I played in PF and someone had hidden logs/tomestone, you had better believe me and the squad had that mfer under the microscope, if it was obvious they didn't know wtf is going on, straight on the blacklist see you next patch.
I cleared zurvan unreal on my very first time. Some people lie because they learn fast and dont have patience to watch someone not stand on a marker 30 pulls in a row.
Honestly, M4S in particular was really rough to get my clear originally(first time raider) I figured proglying was happing A LOT mainly due to EE2 memes. I was stuck there for ages and it aint even that hard. Rn I'm stuck getting my ex3 clear because every Ice phase party i join get stuck at meteors or AA and it's frustrating because i have seen the phase 1 enrange but i cant get past it because there's always some type of meme happing. It would make sense why. I get it could just be someone learning for the first time and people have off days but it gets to a point where it's suspicious how often 1 person screws up the same mech.
I am lucky with my EX3 experience, I don't really have time during the week so I only start on Sunday, 3 different PF and less than 3 hours later I am done. 1st PF from start, reach Ice phase. 2nd PF, never reach ice phase, either prog lie or ppl just suck (I raid on Crystal and we usually suck lol) 3rd PF I decided to roll the dice and wait for those 7/8 static PF show up, I go in, done in 2 pull.
nah fr with m4s it took 2 times longer to clear than the other ones and there a LOT of liars who couldn't do past phase 1 it was absurd
I've never lied about this stuff personally. I've had players in PF back during ShB ask if I knew fights like Suzaku (this was during my mount farming arc) and I always told them no.
What those players did like was how quickly I picked up on the mechanics despite initially doubting me. They also liked that I never bragged about it and even asked on a few occasions. I just told them its a minor achievement for me when compared to an Ultimate raid. Plus I don't enjoy bragging, makes me feel like a narcissist
fair to say prog lying is a problem or not more depends on player skills. For good raiders even they didn't done the mech before they still can make it as other people. But if the party getting behind cause the liar, technically it's an skill issue and over confidence problem
Correct, I mention this at the start of the first chapter. SOME people can pull off the "reading strategy -> convert to gameplay".
Meanwhile me “yes i got to thus part of the fight” but i forgot everything before that part.
Shocker that people might do this! Really though, the problem is the fact that nobody talks about the wipes and the entire pf gets disbanded. Finding the problem or even kicking the "liars" would never happen. Just disband everytime.
Sphene PF from day2-5 was horrrrible. Lots of prog liars but also toxic people getting mad when you didn’t use a stray they liked but didn’t explain at all and just assumed you did the fight the same way as them (sphene ex has lots of mechs that can be completed in many different ways) had someone complaining because the group was wiping at meteors and complaining we were following the pastebin, now this was day 2 so there were lots of pastebins out so no one knew which one they meant. PF lead wasn’t talking so when the toxic person asked for a pastbin link I sent them a link to the speenebin cuz maybe they needed help right. They immediately called me an idiot and worse cuz we were doing a different strat than was in the bin (which actually had multiple strats for different mechs) the girl blows up at me when I wasn’t even the PF lead and deciding which strat we were doing. Just wanted to help them by sending a pastebin but that was the wrong idea I guess. I know that getting stuck on a mech earlier than prog point can suck but damn people act like actual children in PF recently it’s gross
Back during coils when they were current, I joined a farm party for T11 when I never cleared. I had gotten so frustrated at not clearing on pf despite knowing the fight up, down and sideways so I said fuck it. When we loaded in and that "one or more party members have yet to clear" message appeared there was a long awkward silence followed by pleads for someone to confess. Instead of disbanding right away they figured theyd spot the liar by seeing who fucked up the most on 1 single try. Im not proud of parasiting but I am proud I performed flawlessly lmao got my clear and never did that again.
"Someone hasn't cleared, let's see who fucks up"
*Fight is cleared*
".....wtf ever, man"
I will say this. Recently I met a pair of players. I will be addressing them simply as YI and BA. YI on their log has a singular clear of DSR on WHM. BA has multiple clears of DSR on WHM. YI has a singular clear of TOP on SMN. BA has multiple clears of TOP on SMN.
Where this occurred is in a Warrior player's /Clear for one/ with the duty complete setting checked.
With the context out of the way, YI in DSR was notably on MNK and not WHM. Their movement for every single phase of the fight was shoddy, nervous and sporadic. They're late to their personal responsibilities in /every single phase/ and overall just seems /lost/ all throughout the fight. They wipe the party repeatedly in phase 3, sporadically messing up his tether pass priority in phase 4, and being completely lost for every pull into phase 5. YI quite literally floor tanked phase 5 and we somehow still managed to make the dps check without him to see phase 6. Immediately upon reaching phase six YI proceeded to hit the dragon assigned to the opposite light party creating an hp discrepancy that simply could not be fixed in time, which caused yet another wipe. The party disbanded after a full lockout of random wipes from YI single handedly almost. Note: YI was not the clear for one.
It was so awful to the point where I wondered how YI even had a clear so I went and dug through YI's logs and tomestone.
Upon looking at their tomestone, YI recently had been slowly /progging/ the fight over the course of approximately 3 weeks on solely Monk with nearly every party having BA in it along side them on White Mage.
Note: Prior to joining a duty complete locked CLEAR FOR ONE, he'd only progressed to the beginning of phase 5.
It became all too clear what had occurred. YI had a piloted clear. And then joined a player's clear for one to prog skip all of DSR phase 5 just to see phase 6. I've never been so baffled. I would name drop if I had solid evidence but all I have is just a strong suspicion that leans towards /very validated/.
Two days later I see YI posting a /clear for one/ for themself (Remember they already have the duty complete checkmark due to being piloted) with their friend BA filling the White Mage slot of the party finder ad. I check their tomestone's recent activity and they haven't even made it to DSR phase 6 again since prog lying. I've never blacklisted two players so fast in my life.
I agree to an extent because I have suffered both sides. For example, I've wasted hours in PF because with multiple runs people lie and it's very frustrating - agree. However, having played WoW where everything is recorded on their version of fflogs (RIO) it creates a situation where only over-geared and over-experienced people are accepted into groups - the very people that don't need to clear them, so you end up with a vastly reduced player pool due to this. Essentially the proggers want a carry from those who have already cleared.
All of that said, I was called an elitest because I checked fflogs and removed "suspicious" people from my party. It turned out to be a good call, but I was 100% contributing to the problem of reducing the player pool - but I figure that these people will eventually "brute force" their way through the fight anyway. I also, often, go back as a "helper" and try to help correct the problem I've contributed to by increasing the player pool. As a helper, I'm less annoyed by liars and I'm also expecting mistakes to be made - plus it's not impedeing my personal progress.
So if you're going to go "full elitest" and check logs, remove people, etc then you have to acknowledge that you're creating/contributing to another problem altogether. If so, your remedy (or penance) is to go back as a helper and assist others.
I can't tell you how many times this week I joined an Ice prog and parasites were dying at meteors, or joined a p2 enrage prog and parasites were dying at ice.....
Sphene Ex is really showing how bad it has become in more "casual" circles. TOP PF was already a nightmare in 6.4/6.5 - but thats a very niche community.
Sphene is so bad with it. Until my static got together and cleared it, the amount of "Ice progs" there were and people were dying to meteors/coronations was INSANE. Someone even had the audacity to ask "What do we do with the meteors again?" Like COME ON.
@@NokoFace Agreed, people who dont even look up the mechanics they are trying to "skip" by lying... thats a whole different level of stupidity.
my friend and I got so fed up with parasites dying to meteors that we just made a static
for M4Si have lied in prog, but did it good anyways, i realized that if you joined a Intermission prog then its a EE2 prog. So due to that, i joined a Mustard bomb/ Twillight sabbath. That way people usually wiped in Intermission and could progged easily. Even more, people that already did the fight fucked up more than i did
I really dont mind a little prog lie. So long as you're able to back it up.
A while back I was in a M3S group with a MNK who was fresh prog while we were progging a mechanic about 8 minutes into the fight. This dude managed to prog the first 8 minutes in 3 or 4 pulls. I dont mind him joining in such a weird way.
I myself "lie" because I know im able to back up my lie with good performance. Just earlier this week in FRU I made it to the end on Diamond Dust and i found it super easy but I felt stuck with other people progging past this mechanic. So I joined a Light Rampant party and after a pull or 3 I got the hang of that as well. now I know I should stick with LR for a while but it feels like im ready for enrage prog
Ive only blacklisted liars who insist they arent. Had a awesome pf for m4s, got to see sunrise multiple times. However a member had to leave, and were replaced by someone i had previously blacklisted. I had met them in an midnight prog group and dude kept dying to witch hunt and ee1. He would claim that he wasnt the problem, and would complain when someone other than him messed up. We didnt get to see phase 2 again that pf, and i ended up calling him out before leaving and blacklisting him again.
My PF ultimate raiding experience would have been exponentially longer if it weren’t for prog lying. Every group I joined was a mechanic behind the actual PF description. You’re already waiting so long for ultimate groups to fill so I started joining groups a mechanic ahead and really started seeing progress. Sucks that it came to that but sometimes you have to game the system to get ahead.
yep that's the key. the fact that it takes too long to wait in party finder for ultimate groups to fill. It's actually so bad that people will put "3mil gil to everyone if we see X mechanic, or 3mil gil if we clear". nobody should have to pay gil just to prog or clear lol
Congratulations, you are part of the problem.
@@halo2rocks76I had to do that for TEA. 100k to see BPOG, 1m if we saw inception.
We phase cleared BJCC the second pull. A massive weight felt like it was lifted off my shoulders. For the past few weeks I hadn't screwed up LL/LC once. And I don't mean like I screwed up occasionally, I mean like I straight up didn't fuck up LL/LC once I considered it past my prog point which was infuriating to witness how many people fucked up LC, or die to chakrams, or hawk blasters....
it felt so relieving seeing that phase clear and then time-stop on the second pull. I admitted to the party I didn't study past time-stop because I felt hopeless I'd never see it and they were happy to help explain inception to me. Best 7.7m I ever spent.
It's funny, people will say "well you're the only common person in all your parties" but that logic doesn't really hold in a game where 7 other people have to be honest and perform. It doesn't matter how well I perform if someone keeps forgetting not to stack with the water vuln or a DPS keeps dropping nisis
If you use the time waiting to memorize the mechs, watch VODs or sim then that usually isn't an issue.
My toxic trait is that I'd take the one-off mistale prog liar over the person on their prog point messing up every pull for the lockout any day
I'm glad to see someone highlight this issue, this savage tier was by no means hard in comparison to others but progging it in PF was hell on NA not so much EU. I totally agree with a communal effort of coming down hard on them will stamp the issue out eventually.
It was bad in EU too. Every fight took me 1 day to learn and another day to find a party that wasn't being sabotaged by at least 1 moron. These leeches waste entire days of people's time and think nothing of it.
I love this way to explain concepts using "maths" and/or "theories" :3
awesome video menardy
Prog lying is a big problem but only if the person doing it can't keep up. As someone who has been guilty of prog lying, I sympathize with anyone that sees it as the only option in the current PF. I will try my best to match the prog point of the groups but in this savage tier the only way that I was able to make progress in any of the fights was by prog lying past the wall after I couldn't get a competent enough group that could do it. The community needs more honesty about their individual skill levels, not some arbitrary hurdle of 7 other people that you don't know doing the mechanic right before you can progress.
Recently met a player who had a piloted clear of DSR join a (Duty Complete checked) clear for one for another player only to troll every single phase of the fight merely for their own prog. I honestly hope the 6 other players caught on like I did checking both their logs and tomestone. I hope they get blacklisted by every raider in the scene.
Sadly that's also the case with reclear groups... I just recently joined a uwu reclear pt. I haven't cleared yet, bcs pf... So I asked them to join and they said yes if I'm confident... In the end they trapped me for over 1 hour, mostly failing to garuda...
VERY Long comment incoming. Dawntrail was my first time getting into Savage. Before I started Savage, I did A LOT of researching to find out what all the terms meant, what actual positioning means, what "true north" means, so on and so forth. As a result, I started running Savage late into the expansion. It wasn't until I made it to M3S that I truly started seeing prog liars. I didn't know what they were called, but I knew that there were people joining who didn't know the fight. It took me 3 weeks to clear M3S playing and everyday for 4-5 hours a day. Day in and day out, it was prog liars. People who claimed they knew final fusedown and fusefield, but died multiple times to the starting mechanics. M4S was really bad. I started M4S around the beginning of November, but didn't clear it until this past Saturday (December 21st). Almost 2 months of grinding this fight everyday for 4-5 hours a day, and again, it was the same issue. People claiming to know the mechanics, people claiming to have made it to Sunrise, ONLY TO FAIL LITERALLY EVERY MECHANICS IN PHASE 1. In order to get my clear, I actually had to change my party finder description. Instead of putting strats, and normal PF things like "sunrise to clear", I literally put "This is a clear party, do not join if you don't know the fight. Failing phase 1 two times will result in an instant disband." And sadly, I had to do what you said, kick the person who is messing up the fight. We had a monk join who failed Electrope Edge 2 twice and wiped the party. I ended the duty, kicked him, told everyone I kicked him because he messed up, then re-upped the PF. On the second time, we managed to put together a clear party. We didn't clear it on our first go, but we made it to Sunrise consistently and it was only a matter of cleaning up that mechanic with a few people. It took us about an hour, but we cleared it and I was nearly tearing up. We even did a Gpose afterwards because we were all so hyped and I wasn't the only person frustrated of dealing with prog liars.
My biggest regret was tolerating bad players. I feel if I had did that a month ago, it wouldn't have taken so long. There were plenty of other prog parties out there, and when you're still learning the fight, you shouldn't be joining parties that are meant to clear. When you're progging the fight, your goal shouldn't be to clear, but to complete the early mechanics flawlessly. What's also unfortunate is that I remember encountering a bunch of toxic players as I was progging the fight. I remember struggling to learn Electrope Edge 2, and someone who had already cleared flat out called me stupid for not understanding it. There aren't that many toxic players in the FF14 community, but I can confirm that the overwhelming majority of toxic players I've encountered have been from PVP (because it's competitive) and savage raiding. These people simply make prog liars continue what they do out of spite, without any care for anyone but themselves. Before I got my clear, I was in a party a few weeks ago that felt like a possible clear. We kept making it to Sunrise consistently without anyone dying. Someone had to go and we just needed one more person. During the break, the guy who helped his friend was telling me I need to relearn the entire fight. I said "I don't know need to relearn the entire fight, I haven't made any mistakes until Sunrise." And rather than offering any constructive criticisms like "well you actually messed up here" or "there's a better way of doing this" he simply kept saying "no, you need to relearn the whole fight." So I said "Actually, what I don't need to do is stay in a party with someone like you. Good bye ^_^." and I left and called it quits for the night. The next night, I saw the guy trying to get a clear again, so it's safe to assume he didn't pass it. People who have learned and completed the fight don't need to be arrogant. It doesn't make you a better player just because you cleared, it just means you had a party that actually knew the fight. Everyone starts from 0, so being arrogant about clearing content really doesn't make sense to me because it's not like you learned it instantly, or cleared the hour the content released.
But back to prog liars, you do have to put your foot down, otherwise you'll never get the clear. It's a shame you have to do it, but there really isn't a choice unless you're running with statics. I've actually had WORSE luck finding a consistent static than I did with party finder. I went to the FFXIV recruitment subreddit to find a static team, and there was always someone who was always late, no call no show, didn't do any studying, getting distracted, canceling, not paying attention, or not getting any better. I actually gave up on finding a good static team and just went back to PF, which ultimately worked for me. If you find a good static, cherish them because life is way more difficult without them. All in all, your video gave some harsh but true advice to people dealing with prog liars.
Keep in mind, since you started the tier so late:
- This savage tier was particularly easy, I don't say this to make you feel bad or similar, but rather because easy raid tiers attract really really bad players
- For example Abyssos was not easy, rough dps check in p8s, p5s really had hands and gatekept casuals from higher floors
- The later you prog a savage tier, the worse the players
- There is always talented new players or those that took a break, but they cannot offset the 4-7 people you have in a party that simply dont even understand the fundamentals of the game, their job and ontop of it are extremely inconsistent players
- And thats why main point, when you have a party that is at say Final Fusedown, that means they ARE in fact still inconsistent on the mechs before that, as I showed in the video
- Just, when you have decent players, like day 1/2/3 of savage release, what is "shaky and inconsistent" for them will look like perfection to you and vice versa - the players you dealt with, they will never get even semi-consistent on some of the harder mechs, because they don't care, they raid very little and just lack the skills
Not trying to invalidate your experience, but rather trying to say - the bad experience you had was largely due to progging the tier many weeks into it being released. When all the really really bad players zombied through floors 1 & 2 being carried by having gear above the minimum.
Week 1 everyone has 710 ilvl, you don't beat the fights messing up half the mechanics and with people not playing their job correctly.
@@menardyxiv I've heard that sentiment many many times. "All the good people have moved on and got all the gear they need." Also, there's a ton of other videos that say "You should start raiding. Anytime is a good time." *This is just a plain lie.* The best time to get into Savage is to do so on release. Very few people point out how bad it's going to be if you start late. I play on Aether and I see people running savage content all the time, so I figured it would be ok to start late so I'm not a total idiot going into it. This was my biggest mistake. Not a single person pointed out that if you start late, you'll get bottom of the barrel players. It all makes sense now. The people who cleared have no reason to do it anymore unless they are helping friends or doing it for fun. When the next tier drops, I'll be doing it on release and I'm certain I won't struggle as nearly as much as I did starting late. I also plan on doing FRU starting Tuesday after my reclears.
@@Kenshin6321 It depends on the player and their situation. Many players that "start out with savage" are also novices and need to learn the ropes. Starting late isn't bad for them, though it would probably be much better in a casual static. Thats how I started out. End of Shadowbringers, casual static, long after echo was active in E9S-E12S. Obviously the static couldn't hold me much, so I cleared P1S-P4S in PF and found a more dedicated group to move on to.
There was no hard feelings either, on the contrary, I regularly helped out the casual group when they were down a player. And they very much understood if I stayed it would cause a lot of friction.
I wish you the best of luck - savage on release is a different beast difficulty-wise but also a lot more fun. FRU right now feels bad to me in PF, the ultimate being easier than TOP/DSR attracted a lot of that bad crowd you are trying to avoid (on EU at least, no idea about NA). I've seen some really insane statements, opinions and more in PF this week. Week 1/2 it was quite wholesome. Prog lying wasn't much of an issue either.
@@menardyxiv I also can't speak to how it's like in EU, but I play on the most populated DC in NA (Aether). The people here are just a mess sometimes. During a run, whenever I see someone messing up on something they should know, I ask "do you know how to do this? This isn't an attack on you, I just want to help you because we see you're messing up." And yes, everyone makes mistakes from time to time, especially if you've been playing for a long time, but you don't consistently make the same mistake over and over if you know the fight. I also wish the best luck in EU. I also expect when the new tier drops, I"ll be dealing with way less prog liars because everyone is still learning, but the most fun I've had (besides clearing) is actually learning the fights. Learning fights with everyone is quite enjoyable.
@@Kenshin6321 Well today (or tomorrow for you ig) you can have that in chaotic alliance raids. Even if you're not into 24-man, I wouldn't miss out, some of the gear can replace tome gear for alt jobs and for healers its straight BiS (because we dont have non-piety options for gloves/boots).
I just got another clear for FRU but finally on tank, so I'm quite happy today.
so basically just keep joining enrage to clear parties. got it thanks
Lying is not tolerated. IRL scenario you don't forgive your cheating gf as they did it once, they can always do it twice. Lying about prog point is akin to taking people's time to their own. Always be Honest even if you suck, it's the party member who will decide if it's alright for them to help you.
Before I got my clear for M4S, I joined a pf for Uptime Sunrise *Prog* and we kept wiping to P1 because the pf lead self admitted to "still messing up P1."
I left this party for an enrage party right after and that SAME pf lead joined after me despite causing a train wreck in their own pf.
Just say exactly that and ask the host to kick them.
defector theory in my video game? delightful!
I didn't even know raid parasites were a thing until seeing this video. I started learning savage about a month ago and honestly, I feel like I've encountered a few without realizing it. Not sure if this is a raid parasite or not but in an M2S heartsick prog we would get to enrage about 3 times but we would always die because of one dps pulling less damage than both of our healers.
As shameful as it is, I once was a prog liar when I was progging Weapons Refrain Ultimate. I wanted that diamond weapon so badly that I struggled in party finder, I would even say it was pure horror. When I only had the last few Ultima mechanics to prog I found it hard to find groups on PF, so I would join one that is doing a mechanic ahead of my prog which resulted in me fucking up and ruining it for everyone. (Ultimate Suppression)
So please, ask questions, prog, learn before you join parties and wipe. Good thing is once you do it once it comes natural to repeat for reclears.
Technically Prog liars were the reason why I stuck at clearing P8S and then refrained from clearing P9S-P12S. Every time I get a good prog, the next 3-4 times are going to be the worst nightmare. At snakes. It's always snakes. SNAKES!!!
I admit it, I prog lied in E8s to get to Icelit dragonsong and not die over and over in uptime wings trying to get there.
Joining something past your prog is the only way to fly in PF. How the hell am I supposed to see the sht that comes after if everyone else is lying and scuffing my prog?
Thank you for this guide on how to get into groups as a new raider.
This reminds me of wow days back in lichking where you "had" to have gear level higher than the raid was even giving and in order to start getting raiding gear you would need addons to "spoof" your ilvl.
you would wait a half hour to an hour to get a group together and sometimes you would breeze through it because of the high geared people, and other times after the hour most of your group had awful gear and the raid would turn into a trainwreck.
This very attitude dragged my tier clear up to week 4, and made me give up on trying to clear the new extreme altogether.
What’s wrong with you having cleared on week 4? I guess missing out on books can suck but like let’s say you were trying for a week one clear and you didn’t get it that’s on you? I cleared at like week 6-7 cuz I only even started M1 prog in week 4 or so but that’s just cuz I went slow and took my time. That’s on me even if I ran into plenty trap parties going for my M4 clear yknow
@@lemontonk The issue isn't when I cleared but why; I started the tier on the day of release and if I didn't have people lying about their prog point I wouldn't have been reduced to looking for C41 groups just to get me my clear from those who still die to beat 1 in M2S or fusedown in M3S, in a CLEAR group.
@@lemontonk Because by saying "yeah...I cleared the whole raid tier in week four ugh" they think that will somehow validate that they are good players and they could've cleared in day 1 if it wasn't for something holding them back.
Yokai if you think about it and dont get insecure someone killed earlier then you
If they started on release and then got stuck for 1 or 2 weeks purely cause they couldnt prog cause people were lying, others dont like their time wasted but ig you do?
@@Rhaya02 it's pretty much this.
it's more relevant in ultimates since you got harder mechs and a longer fight.
but even in the new Extreme, you got someone joining a duty complete party (a farm party as well) and that person can't even do Earth stage correctly and if they do they'll mess up ice stage.
and this continues for 3-4 pulls till someone is done, leaves the party and then the PF sheep mentality kicks in and everyone leaves to quickly join another party.
Always put your PF description (or join) 2 mechanics ahead of where you are currently at.
Edit: 6:05 LMAO HE KNOWS
Yep, I helped dozens of people clear TOP during 6.3 to 6.5 in PF.
@ real talk. I think you have great advice. I throughout EW, I would typically look over people’s logs if I’m hosting a full savage reclear party, to ensure the other players stick around and don’t feel like their time is wasted. And in DSR/TOP I would typically just ask them a specific question about a mechanic they would only know if they had experience in the fight. Also 90% of the time you can avoid so much pain by avoiding any PF that mentions a Hector strat, which in my experience is almost never the PF strat I see parties that actual clear using.
Was stuck in predation in uwu for weeks, joined an annihilation prog and cleared in a few pulls. Prog lying is actually good when you’re good at the game but you always get bad teammates.
I am a prog liar, I lie to the next relevant mechanic. Example: M4S
I completely understood Midnight Sabath after the third time. No more issues there, so I go for a Sunrise Sabath party. Have I ever been to Sunrise? No. But it doesn‘t matter since I will not waste my time with randoms who need multiple lockouts for midnight when I am further than that.
Also I heavily use my blacklist, but I clear it for every new raid tier (except very special people), people can improve but I don‘t think they can be improved within one week. I blacklist for following reasons:
-Luring players into an unmarked KFF party
-Doing your rotation so bad that everyone else has to noticably make up for your damage (melee below tank kinda thing)
-Being an a-hole
-Being the resonsible for 9/10 wipes
Had someone join our EX3 "from ice onwards aiming to clear" party and say something like "hey guys :D i haven't done the fight but i learn fast and i've seen the guide many times". We were kinda surprised someone would be so blatantly honest about wanting to sabotage us lol. The leader gave it a go once or twice but it was very obvious this person couldn't do much because they didn't have the practice, so we kicked them but man. What's up with people? I know liars have been around since forever, but I feel like the quality of pf is much worse this time around. Not only that, but i also get a lot of people who straight up can't play in normal lvl 100 duties.
That's not a new problem. Maybe it wasn't as apparent before, but I've had people struggle in EW as much as in DT. It's hard for me to judge if it got worse, because the savage tier is quite different in the style of its failure states.
In dungeons and other easy content it feels the same to me. Only at the very start of DT it seemed quite extreme with how some struggled with certain bosses (all 3 100 dungeons, their first bosses).
Wait, so I've only gotten to the part where I'm going to meet Hraesvelgr in Heavensward. Are these people lying about having done the fight before or something? Am I not far enough along to even have to care about watching this video or something??
Yes this is an endgame issue. In extreme trials, savage and ultimate raids. Enjoy the story, you dont have to deal with this nonsense.
People are typically really nice to sprouts and will let you enjoy msq. The toxicity dosent start until endgame and only really if youre going for extremes and up
While I've personally lied about prog points in the past (joined an E12S Triple Apoc prog to A2C when I was fresh for P2, and joining an A2C P12S party when I haven't even seen Caloric 2--both of which cleared in that same parties I joined in), I personally know what I am capable of as a raider after raiding for 6 years now. I would never dare join a party where the prog point I have not theoretically grasp. If you are more of an experience the mech to understand it kinda guy, then you'd rather join parties with your prog point or even earlier. Not everyone has the same way of learning.
I feel I would be the one that others would take advantage of. I don't do PF too much, but as soon as I join a party, I talk with the leader telling them some of my concerns learning an mechanic if its a prog party, and see if that vibes with them. I try to be as respectful as I can towards people's time because progging a fight and getting no where for hours is a horrible feeling, and I would never want to be the person to do that to someone, or a group of people.
Thank you for the master class on game theory.
Honestly, I thought it was because im just bad. I still think this. Plus I don't get detailed enough instructions when I ask.
True dat! I just watch guides now before going in and asking questions. Im a simple person. Even when the party leader tries to explain stuff they be like, "Dps you have to stand opposite of the clockwise position of your intercardinal way point XYZ for the raid wide to pop and then do a handstand while singing ABC in reverse order before etc." Like I barely even know wtf they be saying with all those acronyms. One guide and I practically know the fight lol.
This has gotten so bad that I just don't use PF any more. If my static is missing a player and we can't get someone that we know to fill, we just cancel.
I'm not waiting hours for a party to fill only to never see my prog point because some entitled turbocasual thinks it's ok to waste everyone else's time.
i had a phase 2 pf of chaotic alliance raid i joined and 5 people we watching cutscene fully we never saw phase 2 gotta love there being no way to know for sure before starting what peoples prog points are
I mean - I also just today had a player in my alliance in a kill party that watched cutscene and had never done the fight before. They were promptly kicked (after 1-2 pulls where we confirmed they were in fact clueless, could have been an alt too).
People have no respect...
I encourage *some* of my friends to prog lie and I do it myself. The ones I suggest this to are always the ones I have confidence in being able to learn a mechanic quickly and catching up asap. I've prog lied for years now and the only time it bit me in the ass was Caloric theory in p12s p2. I ended up not understanding how that mechanic worked at all when I was researching it compared to every other mechanic. I held back parties that one time cause of it.
yeah... if my prog progression is lightly off the prog status declared in the pf description, first thing i do is ask if its ok to join, happened day 2 on sphene prog, i just reached earth tower from previous day while they searched for meteors, they said ok, so my conciousness was clean ^^. but yeah... happened to see alot of people who were hardstuck in earth phase even if it stateted stuff like coronation or ice phase...