UPDATE: 1/14 2021 Pilot (owner operator) identified as Richard Wayne Boehlke a private pilot NOT rated in Citation Jet he was flying. FAA Pilot Database: Ratings Private Pilot Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Land Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Sea Private Pilot - Airplane Multiengine Land Private Pilot - Airplane Multiengine Sea Private Pilot - Instrument Airplane Private Pilot - Rotorcraft-Helicopter Type Ratings: P/G-111 P/LR-JET Medical Class: 2 Medical Date: 09/2020 Expiration Date: 09/2021 Waiting for more information on the 2nd person on-board. Possibly a CFI. Jb.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder This is shaping up to be a strange one indeed. The medical incapacitation theory certainly makes a lot more sense if he was flying solo. Here we have an older guy, a successful CEO, presumably with loads of experience who already holds ratings in two very challenging types, and is the owner of the accident aircraft. Something doesn't quite add up.
@@lellius You said it ceo.... Lots more high up suicidal people to come... He was drunk I am sure of it. He knew he was about to die. You can hear it in his voice
He had been having issues on the ground at TTD. GC asked him if he was having radio issues prior to his departure, so to me that indicates this wasnt hypoxia and to me seems like it would be a long lasting stroke, etc.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder Do not know total time, but TTD was combined LC/GC at the time. Pilot had checked in with the wrong ATIS prior to requesting the extra time. He was also told to expect FL370 by TTD.
Thank you so much for your support and shoutout, Juan. I'm so proud our content helps the industry in the best way possible. Thanks for your analysis too.
Victor gets the audio and JB puts it in words we can understand like this accident. His many years of aviation experience decipher and make It east for us to understand. Thanks to both of y’all.
Juan, just pause it when you want to talk. We'll put up with it. Your input is more valuable than letting the video play through. My thought was hypoxia too but his voice was slurred from initial Center contact at low altitude. Possibly sickness/ medication or alcohol is my guess..
@@delukxy I concur. It would be useful if the ATC is paused so that what he was saying is audible. I am surprised that Blancolirio allowed this to happen.
Over eight years at Beale flying 'Q' tanks with the 9th ARS I did the chamber a few times. The best one was was when the Sargent running the show said "As the pressure decreases you will feel abdominal pressure.... Officers feel free to pass flatus....enlisted just go ahead and fart."....Capt Mike....... SAT
Took my Naval aircrew training at Pensacola Fl, the chamber ride was very telling. During the prime of my life at 26 years of age, I removed my O2 mask at 25K feet & within 20 seconds I was right at the doorstep of incapacitation. Another time I was in a DC9 that lost cabin pressure at 36K ft, once I had my O2 mask on, I checked my fingernails, oh oh, they were turning blue, I quickly tried another mask & they turned pink. This flying thing can be tricky.....
Did The Chamber" at Valdosta, Georgia in 1971. Crazy to suddenly start making math mistakes without knowing it. The real surprise for me was the sudden depressurization. You feel like your body or skin sort of expands a bit. and the place gets all foggy as you reach for the mask..
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Yeah, one of my first symptoms is that doing mental arithmetic gets very slow. Weird! (I've spent plenty of time in the mid 20,000's in my Mooney.)
I get quite euphoric, and from reasonably low altitude, about 13K upwards these days, old age coming on I guess, at least I know what it is. I did a de-compression chamber years ago, including a rapid. I never realized there were so many parts of your body that air could come out of!
Flying out of KTTD all IFR aircraft are required to fly the blue lake 3 departure. The departure (for RWY07) consists of an initial turn to the left to 055 until 1000’ and then another left turn north west to 310 to incept the battleground VOR. his departure was not consistent with standard IFR departures off of TTD. Also the 370 that you see in the data block on the left would be his final altitude for which he filed not the autopilot setting.
I was flying out of there starting in 1972. Dave Brisbane was flight instructor. We used to kid around about having a logging chain hanging under the windsock for the gorge winds.
Went through the hyperbolic chamber training at Offutt about 25 years ago. To this day still remember my three symptoms of hypoxia. Never lost color vision. Each pilot is different, need to determine hypoxia effects on you. Great training well worth the time.
Trying to write something these days is a challenge when the device can supposedly spell better than us. I'm sure he meant hypobaric chamber. Hypobaria = low atmospheric pressure.
Juan as always we deeply appreciate all your hard work and your information that you provide us about the aviation industry. It's always incredibly sad when there's an accident, but it's very informative to find out how to prevent future accidents and what people should be mindful of when operating aviation aircraft. God bless you, and God bless the family of this pilot.
Thankyou Juan. Your content is always articulate with a masterful eloquence of transmission. Your visual presence is reassuring. It is sad that a man of your caliber has the sorrow that accompanies your news releases.
The pilot (Rest in Peace!) sounded "off" as soon as he first contacted ATC so I don't know if hypoxia could have been the problem. I'm thinking stroke. Strokes sometimes last minutes/hours. Prayers for him and his family.
How much of a hazard is CO exposure in a GA jet? Back when I was active (Getting hit by a DWI cost me my Medical...) every aircraft I flew had a "Save-A-Life" dot sticker. Are these needed/used in jets?
He was cleared to FL230. You see 370 on the datablock because that was the requested cruise altitude. It's not the altitude dialed into the flight director or autopilot. We don't see what altitude is set within any equipment on the aircraft. The sector controlling the aircraft (ZSE05) has an upper limit of FL230, with ZSE16 controlling the airspace above FL230. The controller only assigns the aircraft to her upper limit, with the next controller issuing the climb to the final altitude. I'm a ZSE controller for over 35 years, now working in the regional office for quality control.
I flew gliders at Black Forest, Colorado where we went to FL300 in the mountain wave off Pikes Peak. Over 600 glider pilots earned their altitude diamonds there with flights to above at least FL280. We kept contact with people in the wave by asking them to report their altitude and climb rate every 500 feet. Told them it was for separation but it was to monitor their voice to see if they were getting into trouble. The second I heard the Cessna pilot's voice, I knew was already hypoxic.
There was something already a bit off with the flight from the get go - flying too low, radio management etc. I'm not sure it was only a top of climb issue - the whole flight felt a bit off.
@@dwaynejohnson6277 If you have listened to the ATC audio the pilot seems to be somewhere else completely (mentally) well before climbing above 14,000 feet. Speech was slurred, delayed at times replying, almost like they were asleep (well below hypoxia issues). I doubt a mechanical issue would be the cause for him to act like that, let alone continue to climb to over 30k feet.
@@dwaynejohnson6277 Reasonable question. The answer is that mechanical malfunction doesn't seem a good fit with the pattern of facts we have at the moment. We know the flight seemed a bit 'off' from early in the flight with that brief unexpected descent around 2117 UTC. We know that at one point he (maybe) dialled a completely incorrect altitude into the autopilot. We know the pilot was communicating on the radio, with apparently slurred speech, and he made no mention of mechanical issues or any problems at all. The almost symmetrical spiral descent seemed consistent with no active control inputs being applied. So the most likely explanation at this time is pilot incapacitation.
A few years back I was staying at the inlaws close to the Mutton Mtn area.... after a few days of going stir crazy I borrowed on of their dirt bikes to go find an overlook they told me about. About a mile or so before the dirt road ended at the lookout the bike died right next to a rock pile about the size of a small outbuilding. Did the usual fiddling with the fuel selector and plug wire and it eventually fired. Rode to the end, ate a lunch, and on the way back it did the same thing in the same spot. This time I could coast for a ways and it started after another 15 min or so. Place gave me the creeps. Got goosebumps when I heard this happened there.
Great video Juan. Thank you for what you do for the community. One thing... if he had newer avionics installed... He might of had EDM mode which in the citation (on autopilot) and has a cabin altitude high warning and there is no response for around 30 seconds. The plane will automatically bug 15000ft turn left 90Deg start an rapid decent time intercept MMO normally around .737 depending on the model and level off at 15000ft. I’m only typed in the CE-525S but it’s a common system used in the citation models. Love your videos. Always learn something! Thank you. Max
As a lifetime local, and with one whole hour of rotor instruction out of Troutdale, that flight plan makes sense, on good weather days the wind is commonly out of the east from the Columbia River Gorge. So a quick circle after take off to gain altitude makes sense before crossing the mountains.
Sad to hear . thanks for the updates .Flying out of troutdale ,typically we head north or north east .Its a major approach to pdx .so we stay below 2500 until cleared for higher altitude Ifr .
Such a powerful video, thank you. When I was a grom a thousand years ago, my dad (a civilian but former Marine aviator) would take me up in a Cessna out of Troutdale. (We vacationed at the Hot Springs Rez). Your channel’s fantastic. Your viewers’ comments here are super insightful. Tragic.
Back in the late 70s the USAF was offering altitude chamber to civilian commersial pilots. I went through the program at March AFB in Calif. A very good course for anyone flying at altitude. I lasted about 40 seconds at 28,000 feet.
I'm a truck driver and I take my significant other along sometimes. About 8500 she starts to sound like this. No medical issues had her checked out immediately. The altitude doesn't bother me so I guess everyone is different.
30 year History as a Paramedic retired. This guy sounded like a stroke patient to me with slurred speech, falling forward to the weak side holding the yoke and pulling it to the right causing the right turning spiral.
Was kinda thinking a recent onset of AFib that didn't tolerate mild hypoxia well, or something similar. Stroke fits the bill though. Definitely sounded more like a medical episode from the start. Hope it wasn't toxicological
The thought was that an arrhythmia would explain the apparent altered mentation early in the flight, and that a decrease in oxygenation could have precipitated a deterioration to a more serious rhythm like RVR. Stroke is definitely a possibility. The seemingly gradual onset just had me thinking more about a circulatory collapse of some sort. Listing definitely provides a convincing explanation for the spiral though.
@@danielw4401 Absolutely a great possible differential diagnosis with RVR A-fib. I also thought about maybe an AMI with acute Bradycardia which would also lead to hypoxia at low altitude and of course as he climbed the conditions would have gotten worse in this scenario. Dying Heart = Dying Brain = Dying Heart. Vicious cycle as I use to teach new Medics.
First thought to my mind, after listening to the ATC, “possible stroke, or blood sugar issue”. Either of these events, and possibly, coupled in tandem, with another “issue” is certainly a plausible scenario, to me.
im questioning his impairment, how ever the unusual decent early in the flight is odd, his speach was different. Id like to hear him talking to departure or even TTD tower and compare his speech to later in the flight. he does a decent turns similar to what is in the check list for emergency decent. maybe he was having a medical issue himself and realized it, however he flys the plane. near the end he does get into quite tight turns hes not stall spin. It will be interesting to see what was going on.
@@raybankes7668 I wonder if he finally realizes there is something wrong with him, assumes it's hypoxia and starts an emergency descent which doesn't help because he is experiencing something else.
@@doug112244 lower altitude can help in almost all medical cases (except epileptic seizures), so an emergency descent seems a good idea, if possible. If you have a 100% oxygen source, it can keep you alive in cases when you would normally die, even at low altitude. So if you have similar symptoms to hypoxia, even on the ground, using that oxygen mask is very good idea (it could be a stroke, AFib, basically any cardiac, pulmonary or vascular event).
Juan, I looked at LiveATC and there was audio from 3RB's clearance readback, taxi, and takeoff on the ground frequency at TTD (tower frequency was having issues around T/O time for 3RB). He sounded older and slower on the radio than most, but not impaired. He did have radio issues just after take off when he was being released to departure frequency.
I remember my first chamber ride! It was at Shaw AFB in SC. Simple arithmetic became very difficult! Coincidentally the EB-66 my grandfather flew in Vietnam is on display at the front gate.
It's always awful to hear that anybody has crashed. I was Marine Corps Aircrew for several years and training taught me a lot about aeromed and all that can go wrong and lead to a crash. Oddly enough, the altitude chamber picture used in your excellent presentation was the one I was trained in. (Marine C-130 Loadmasters used to go through Little Rock AFB for basic loadmaster training) In it I learned what my symptoms are, where I get symptomatic, and how to handle myself and crewmates when hypoxia rears its ugly head. Would be a shame if it were that "simple" of a problem, but I think others are correct that there was likely something else that was supplemental to or precipitous to hypoxia symptoms.
Thanks for the updated/amended post. Now it’s much better. One request: When you’re playing the audio and commenting/explaining (and, they are excellent explanations, thanks) please pause the file so you’re not talking over the recorded speech. Dan Gryder’s theory (Probable Cause) is startlingly different and my comment about his video: When the forensic psychological investigation is complete we may know what really happened. For example, is his life highly insured? And, what is his relationship to the other person on board? Were there mass covid-19 deaths at one or more of his businesses? Was he under investigation for that and more financial troubles?
Love your channel, great inside explanation into aviation, always willing to learn, sharing knowledge, knowing your own limits. Best Aviation Channel there is! Please don't spoil by too many ads in between. Dennis from Germany
Have done one instrument departure from Troutdale, it was a climbing left turn before heading south, due to high terrain immediately south and east of airport.
I am learning more every video Juan as a non pilot. It is a sad story again, but your incite is much appreciated. Will be interesting to know the fate of this aircraft and preventative measures for the future. Cheers from down under!
Thanks for another excellent report, Juan. As a contractor I was required to go through the altitude chamber. I went to Brooks until they’d closed it down. As a private pilot learning my hypoxic symptoms was invaluable. One day we were on a test flight with us contractors and Air Force personnel. The guy next to me asked if I felt funny, and I said yes. A little tingly which is one of my symptoms we called the front end to check the pax (pressurization) and we had been at a cabin altitude of 18,000 ft so we all donned on our masks and carried on. Without the training that would have been unsettling. OH you are right about the color wheel. I couldn’t believe one puff of oxygen and the black and white wheel turned to brilliant colors. I think all general aviation pilots should go on a chamber ride. I talked to an FAA rep at Oshkosh about this experience and he said they could go to Oklahoma City and the FAA would give them a chamber ride free. Don’t know if that is still going on. But any of you GA pilots out there should definitely look into it. It is probably the best thing you could do to keep you safe. thanks again for another great video!
Sad event JB. Condolences to all involved. Interesting information re: hypoxia. Learning stuff from continuously. Will keep my antenna up for your updates. Shout out to Victor from VAS. 👍🏽 Take care and fly safe. 🖖🏽🤟🏽
Thanks Juan. As an air traffic controller, I'm looking intently for anything that jumps out to me as perhaps something a controller might have been able to catch in time to perhaps make a difference. The controllers sensed some radio and perhaps navigation difficulties, but nothing that strikes me as sufficiently out of the ordinary as to merit particular concern until it was far too late. With hindsight, the pilot's voice wasn't fast and crisp, but we all hear lots of pilots a day who aren't fast and crisp on the frequency. I agree that he does not seem to have been on autopilot at the end, as no autopilot I know of would do multiple 360-degree turns without very specific and unusual pilot input to do so.
I thought the controller did a get job. Saying that 370 was set in the altitude alerter based on the data block shows a lack of knowledge of the systems in airplanes.
I have a feeling this wasn’t hypoxia, the guy seems off from the start, and most people would not experience harsh symptoms of hypoxia that quickly at 13-14 thousand feet (for reference, the FAA doesn’t even post a useful time of consciousness at the altitude, and at 18000ft they state 20-30 minutes). This seems like it was intoxication or stroke or something
I was going to mention the low altitude of onset as well. I was thinking something medical initially. The tight spiral could have been the passenger trying to pull up and tightening it but i pray that wasn’t it. How realistic is a carbon monoxide scenario in a jet? I’ve never really heard that mentioned other than for piston aircraft so seems unlikely. Anyway, yeah, he was sounding slurred even below the altitude (14.5k ft) where the FAA requires O2 for unpressurized aircraft. Condolences to anyone affected. 😞
@@billb.7346 Exactly - the only thing explaining the passenger failing to yank the yoke up to climb - is they were incapacitated too. Only thing I can think of that matches what we see - Carbon Monoxide poisoning. I think the best clues to the crash will be found in maintenance records - as the bodies are likely...gone.
@@blancolirio the pilot was sluggishly speaking when he was at 14,000. Kinda low for being full on hypoxic even with NO cabin pressurization... Stroke, aneurism , thrombosis, heart event and medicine side effects are possible, followed by alcohol or recreational drugs. I doubt there was anything wrong with the aircraft.
It's in a moving air mass. The airplane doesn't care , headwind... tailwind...The bird is seeking equilibrium. .....When my model gliders did that I'd just re-trim the tail feathers or adjust the CG......Stops the hunting. .....Your GS will vary due to the HW or TW I may be wrong but it's what my father taught when I about nine or ten.....But he was only in AF flight test and it was way back in fifties so who knows how times and the laws of physics have changed Capt. Mike SAT
Tough deal all around. In multi crew aircraft we are also trained to announce if we are not feeling well... ie: "I am feeling light headed/drowsy" The intent is to trigger a coordinated crew response into finding out if incapacitation is imminent. With single pilot operations, this additional safeguard is unavailable. BTW I listened to the last TX numerous times and it does suggest some slurring... although I doubt I would have picked up on it initially.
Looking at Foreflight the airport, KTTD, has one Departure - Blue Lake 3. Departing Runway 7 climb via heading 055 degrees to 1,000' then turn left to 310 degrees or as vectored. The plate shows flying to Battleground VOR (BTG) then specific radials from the VOR, V520 (R-089) being the most likely IF they weren't vectored otherwise. The VOR is due north of Portland International (KPDX). There's also a Note: Rwy 7 requires a minimum climb gradient of 430' per NM to 4,000' (not that bad). Rwy 7 is 5,399' long. Field elevation is 39'. There is also a DIverse Vector Area Notice that's too long to reproduce here.
You are so informative when you cover one of these events. Us civil aviation has so many guys and girls like you. You are envy of rest of the world. I got my private pilot cert in 1973, but unfortunately didn't get my instr cert. I was inbound at Canton,oh airport when Thurmond Munsen crashed his new citation. What a nerve rattler. Be safe,. Bill
Mahalo for the info. I was USN Aircrew. I went in the chamber with a few other classmates to learn our symptoms of hypoxia. I felt like I had a few drinks in about 1min. We played certain games while waiting for the effects,like patty cake, writing our SSN ect. I also saw grey on the color chart. 1 crew member actually got a nose bleed!
The controller's main concern in getting him to respond towards the end is not just his unpredictability and busting his altitude assignment but United climbing up his tailpipe. That was the reason for holding onto and verifying 3RB's 230 altitude restriction and 2240 ends up having to be vectored out of the way.
That's what I was thinking. United 2240 is climbing right behind N3RB out of FL240 with a 100KT overtake, requesting FL390, when N3RB starts his right turn. You can see that the controller working United, the higher sector person at this point, gives United an immediate left turn to the NE, in order to avoid N3RB. It was about a 60° left turn, pretty drastic climbing out of FL240. The controllers had no way of knowing what N3RB might do. It would be interesting to hear the coordination amongst the controllers when the situation was developing.
Juan I really enjoy your channel. Incredibly detailed while maintaining concise, actionable information. Your saving lives looking forward. No doubt. With that said, I’m truly baffled why RUclips demonetizes your videos? Is there anyway you could provide clarity on this question? Again, thank you for what you do.
I noticed from VASAviations video that he sounded slurred, but he was at 14,000ft. There’s no way you’re gonna suffer from hypoxia after just taking off and teaching that altitude. His speech did get better. It could be a stroke, though.
Thank you, Juan and Victor. I know that area quite well, as I've driven through it a number of times. As you drive on hwy 97 through the reservation, it just looks like another town. It's quite modern, and not reminiscent at all of driving through the Arizona area, where the individual tribes dress and hold as much as possible to the old ways. That's not to say that the Oregon tribes don't honor the old ways. It just doesn't show to us non-native Americans.
This accident sounds very familiar. On October 2016, a Citation 560 with former Premiere Jim Prentice on board did something very similar to what N3RB did. On climb out to assigned altitude from Kelowna, BC (YLW), the aircraft suddenly nose-dived and spiraled into mountainous terrain killing all on board (4 souls if I remember correctly.) Canada's TSB put it down to pilot disorientation, as the impact completely destroyed the aircraft.
I was an AME in the US Navy on the USS America during the 6 Day War, I loaded Liquid Oxygen onto the aircraft....................... It was great for hangovers at 17-21 years old
You can't evaluate vocal patterns without a baseline. Lot's of people speak slowly or with a drawl. There seems to be a tacit competition to keep it fast and crisp though among some pilots, but that is not universal.
That's true, but I think most of us would agree that something wasn't right with this guy from the get-go. That's just not a normal speech pattern. The controller seems to have picked up on it as well, asking the pilot if there were problems with his radio.
Perhaps he was up in age? You’re right, though, about not having a baseline. I’ve met pilots who could barely walk (and that’s with a walker), type rated in something, still current, and still maintain their medical (don’t ask me how that is).
@@golfnovember That's what I was thinking. Just listen to Harrison Ford in a promotional video he made a few years ago, called Wings Over the Rockies. His admittedly staged ATC transactions make him sound nearly narcoleptic. Same pacing as the pilot here. I think Ford was trying to go for a "relaxed" tone, but ended up with hypnotic.
@@curtbarnes54 If he was having a evolving stroke or other medical event, the speech may have been slurred from takeoff too. Better to get speech from a comparable flight on previous date.
That the passenger did not seemingly attempt to use the microphone, suggests he/she was incapacitated as well. This also raises a question about supply of supplemental oxygen. The pilot could not have been unaware that about 10 passenger masks would have dropped. That would explain why his climb was briefly stopped at 13,000. Supply valve was off or oxygen not serviced? I read where he had purchased the plane in October when it went through a prebuy inspection and service in Scottsdale and he had not flown it since November. Preflight inspection? Checklist?
Thanks for another informative video. May all the souls that were on that aircraft Rest In Peace. It will be interesting to see the outcome of this accident.
Excellent breakdown. Love the inclusion of VASAviation and Flightradar24, both of which I use constantly. I also immediately thought hypoxia, but as another comment mentioned, the pilot seemed off even prior to reaching the higher flight levels where hypoxia would (normally) start to affect him, although different people have different tolerances. Such a tragic incident, will be interesting to see the final NTSB report to help us understand what happened.
@@Dan-xm1og I worked for a medical (helicopter) transportation company, as a dispatcher. On a miserably overcast Sunday, one of our helicopters developed radio problems between, and during three (10 minute interval) radio position checks. It was literally 30 minutes of hell, which was relieved only when I received a Nextel 'chirp' from the pilot, letting us know that he'd set down at Martin State Airport (KMTN), and that all was okay.
I think the pilot got the pressure altitude warning, and was fiddling with it while proceeding to miss the initial radio call. When ATC gave him a serious warning about terrain, he hastily set the autopilot altitude, and perhaps mixed up the desired altitude with the desired rate of climb. His rate of ascent was about 2300 feet per minute, and his chosen altitude was 370 hundred feet. These numbers may make more sense if he put them in backwards and then went back to trying to troubleshoot the pressure issues, but he was already close to the edge of performance degradation. With alarms, terrain, and possibly now troubleshooting autopilot, I'm wondering if he used his supplemental oxygen, or if it didn't work.
I knew Rick personally and professionally. One thing to note is he was short; maybe 5’ 4”-5’6”. The citation required 2 pilots in part to access the controls. Part of single pilot sign off is to ensure he can reach all necessary controls, including environmental controls. It’s possible he had hard time reaching.
I have no pilot experience but have become interested in aviation recently. Great channel with great explanations even for someone with minimal knowledge
The Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device may be useful for some training but it won’t let you experience an explosive decompression like the older altitude chambers will. That is probably more useful for crew members.
While this is heart wrenching I appreciate the facts you present with each report. I'm not a pilot but I have experienced hypoxia and that's what I first thought here too. I hope there is something definitive found as a cause. It won't bring those poor souls back to their loved ones but maybe it'll make flying safer for others. Thanks again Juan.
TAKEOFF RUNWAY 7: Climb via heading 055° to 1000', then turn left to 310° or as assigned. TAKEOFF RUNWAY 25: Climb runway heading to 900', then turn right to 320° or assigned. Notes; Rwy 7 requires a minimum climb gradient of 420' per NM to 4000'. Rwy 25 requires a minimum climb of 310' per NM to 2000' Plate effective until 28 Jan, 2021
What a strange and unfortunate flight for the pilot who sure sounded like he was struggling for some yet-unknown reason. It's awkward that the first name drop of TTD that I hear, where I once rented a 172 to fly the prescribed sightseeing loop around Mt. St. Helens on a vacation trip long ago, is this peculiar loss.
I've used the Navy's version of the ROBD and I found it 200% better then the Chamber ride. The chamber was fun, but the ROBD is more scientific and provides a-lot of great feed back (O2 levels vs feelings). Thanks again for the videos!!
I had a lack of oxygen event from a severe bleeding ulcer. Went "out" talking to the paramedic. My 'dream' was in b&w and it was best mood ever. They got some blood to my brain and I came back. I was disappointed as no oxygen to my brain was wonderful. Evidently not recommended, long term hypoxia that is.
As ways to go out go, prolonged hypoxia doesn't seem so bad. I used to be in a bad place and one of my suicide plans i made involved displacing oxygen by breathing nitrogen or helium. As long as you continue to expel CO2 you don't get the suffocation reflexes or pain.
His voice isn't entirely slurred at the beginning, it's more slurred making certain sounds, and that sounds like a stroke to me. But from other people who've had strokes, they don't always realise they're having one while still being conscious.
@@Gus1966-c9o No, but I've read people's accounts of minor strokes that they were able to recover from sufficiently to write about it later. Richard O'Brien, who wrote the rocky horror show, recently gave an account of having a stroke. He was sort of functioning but a bit confused as to why something wasn't quite happening as he thought it should (I think from recollection he was trying to put the lid on the teapot) but it was his wife who quickly realised he was having a stroke
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
UPDATE: 1/14 2021 Pilot (owner operator) identified as Richard Wayne Boehlke a private pilot NOT rated in Citation Jet he was flying.
FAA Pilot Database:
Ratings
Private Pilot
Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Land
Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Sea
Private Pilot - Airplane Multiengine Land
Private Pilot - Airplane Multiengine Sea
Private Pilot - Instrument Airplane
Private Pilot - Rotorcraft-Helicopter
Type Ratings:
P/G-111
P/LR-JET
Medical Class: 2
Medical Date: 09/2020
Expiration Date: 09/2021
Waiting for more information on the 2nd person on-board. Possibly a CFI.
Jb.
If he received his type rating within the past 3-4 months it might not yet be updated in the FAA database.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder This is shaping up to be a strange one indeed. The medical incapacitation theory certainly makes a lot more sense if he was flying solo. Here we have an older guy, a successful CEO, presumably with loads of experience who already holds ratings in two very challenging types, and is the owner of the accident aircraft. Something doesn't quite add up.
@@lellius You said it ceo.... Lots more high up suicidal people to come... He was drunk I am sure of it. He knew he was about to die. You can hear it in his voice
He had been having issues on the ground at TTD. GC asked him if he was having radio issues prior to his departure, so to me that indicates this wasnt hypoxia and to me seems like it would be a long lasting stroke, etc.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder Do not know total time, but TTD was combined LC/GC at the time. Pilot had checked in with the wrong ATIS prior to requesting the extra time. He was also told to expect FL370 by TTD.
Thank you so much for your support and shoutout, Juan. I'm so proud our content helps the industry in the best way possible. Thanks for your analysis too.
You rock man. I'm very impressed with your channel.
The two best aviation channels on RUclips!
Victor gets the audio and JB puts it in words we can understand like this accident.
His many years of aviation experience decipher and make
It east for us to understand.
Thanks to both of y’all.
Victor’s work is incredible. We all really appreciate your very impressive hard work.
@@MrWheeler715 Let’s not forget Mentour Pilot. All three are awesome.
Juan, just pause it when you want to talk. We'll put up with it. Your input is more valuable than letting the video play through.
My thought was hypoxia too but his voice was slurred from initial Center contact at low altitude. Possibly sickness/ medication or alcohol is my guess..
Yes, your voice over during the ATC section was mostly inaudible.
Slurring may be an indication of stroke. Sometimes the person doesn't even realize they are slurring.
@@delukxy I concur. It would be useful if the ATC is paused so that what he was saying is audible. I am surprised that Blancolirio allowed this to happen.
@@Cissy2cute True that Cissy! Being 72, I'm overdue for slurred speech. :)
@@billcallahan9303 I can relate....
Over eight years at Beale flying 'Q' tanks with the 9th ARS I did the chamber a few times. The best one was was when the Sargent running the show said "As the pressure decreases you will feel abdominal pressure.... Officers feel free to pass flatus....enlisted just go ahead and fart."....Capt Mike....... SAT
Took my Naval aircrew training at Pensacola Fl, the chamber ride was very telling. During the prime of my life at 26 years of age, I removed my O2 mask at 25K feet & within 20 seconds I was right at the doorstep of incapacitation. Another time I was in a DC9 that lost cabin pressure at 36K ft, once I had my O2 mask on, I checked my fingernails, oh oh, they were turning blue, I quickly tried another mask & they turned pink. This flying thing can be tricky.....
Did The Chamber" at Valdosta, Georgia in 1971. Crazy to suddenly start making math mistakes without knowing it. The real surprise for me was the sudden depressurization. You feel like your body or skin sort of expands a bit. and the place gets all foggy as you reach for the mask..
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Yeah, one of my first symptoms is that doing mental arithmetic gets very slow. Weird! (I've spent plenty of time in the mid 20,000's in my Mooney.)
I get quite euphoric, and from reasonably low altitude, about 13K upwards these days, old age coming on I guess, at least I know what it is. I did a de-compression chamber years ago, including a rapid. I never realized there were so many parts of your body that air could come out of!
Juan thank you for updates. Very sad. Prayers to family and rescuers.
Flying out of KTTD all IFR aircraft are required to fly the blue lake 3 departure. The departure (for RWY07) consists of an initial turn to the left to 055 until 1000’ and then another left turn north west to 310 to incept the battleground VOR. his departure was not consistent with standard IFR departures off of TTD.
Also the 370 that you see in the data block on the left would be his final altitude for which he filed not the autopilot setting.
I got my pilot license at Troutdale, KTTD. my instructors name was Delcie Paulk. Is she still there? This was back in 2007.
@@johnwright8703 yes, she still works at Gorge Winds
@@joshadam7336 Thank you.
Yes, that's correct. Been a few years since I've flown out of there.
I was flying out of there starting in 1972. Dave Brisbane was flight instructor. We used to kid around about having a logging chain hanging under the windsock for the gorge winds.
Went through the hyperbolic chamber training at Offutt about 25 years ago. To this day still remember my three symptoms of hypoxia. Never lost color vision. Each pilot is different, need to determine hypoxia effects on you. Great training well worth the time.
"hyperbolic chamber" Is that one with an excess of bolics?
Trying to write something these days is a challenge when the device can supposedly spell better than us. I'm sure he meant hypobaric chamber. Hypobaria = low atmospheric pressure.
@@Graham_Wideman, it's a place where people exaggerate everything for effect. Like some parts of the Internet. And the advertising industry.
Did the chamber at Shaw in 1990. I still remember the training there and think it was one of the most eye opening training I got. Charles
Juan as always we deeply appreciate all your hard work and your information that you provide us about the aviation industry. It's always incredibly sad when there's an accident, but it's very informative to find out how to prevent future accidents and what people should be mindful of when operating aviation aircraft. God bless you, and God bless the family of this pilot.
Thankyou Juan. Your content is always articulate with a masterful eloquence of transmission. Your visual presence is reassuring. It is sad that a man of your caliber has the sorrow that accompanies your news releases.
The pilot (Rest in Peace!) sounded "off" as soon as he first contacted ATC so I don't know if hypoxia could have been the problem. I'm thinking stroke. Strokes sometimes last minutes/hours. Prayers for him and his family.
How much of a hazard is CO exposure in a GA jet? Back when I was active (Getting hit by a DWI cost me my Medical...) every aircraft I flew had a "Save-A-Life" dot sticker. Are these needed/used in jets?
I didn't hear a "Cabin Alt" alarm in the background.
Sure sounds like a stroke.
@@TheBeingReal or diabetes - hypoglycemia onset is sudden & is often misinterpreted as being drunk
Stroke sounds plausible his voice did sound ok on one reply then slurred the next.
He was cleared to FL230. You see 370 on the datablock because that was the requested cruise altitude. It's not the altitude dialed into the flight director or autopilot. We don't see what altitude is set within any equipment on the aircraft. The sector controlling the aircraft (ZSE05) has an upper limit of FL230, with ZSE16 controlling the airspace above FL230. The controller only assigns the aircraft to her upper limit, with the next controller issuing the climb to the final altitude.
I'm a ZSE controller for over 35 years, now working in the regional office for quality control.
Thanks for this, it explains why I’m so often cleared to FL230 before getting my final altitude.
I was hoping I wasn't the only one that noticed this!
I wish there were publicly available maps of ATC sectors *with* their limitations and usual roles.
The ATC was very professional and thorough. She immediately called for private verification.
yes she seemed on the ball
I flew gliders at Black Forest, Colorado where we went to FL300 in the mountain wave off Pikes Peak. Over 600 glider pilots earned their altitude diamonds there with flights to above at least FL280. We kept contact with people in the wave by asking them to report their altitude and climb rate every 500 feet. Told them it was for separation but it was to monitor their voice to see if they were getting into trouble. The second I heard the Cessna pilot's voice, I knew was already hypoxic.
That death spiral was insane -
There was something already a bit off with the flight from the get go - flying too low, radio management etc. I'm not sure it was only a top of climb issue - the whole flight felt a bit off.
Im wondering about mechanical malfunctions. Why is no one talking about those possibilities?
@@dwaynejohnson6277 If you have listened to the ATC audio the pilot seems to be somewhere else completely (mentally) well before climbing above 14,000 feet. Speech was slurred, delayed at times replying, almost like they were asleep (well below hypoxia issues). I doubt a mechanical issue would be the cause for him to act like that, let alone continue to climb to over 30k feet.
Agree, I think it’s possible he had a stroke or some other medical issue from takeoff.
PIC under duress
@@dwaynejohnson6277 Reasonable question. The answer is that mechanical malfunction doesn't seem a good fit with the pattern of facts we have at the moment. We know the flight seemed a bit 'off' from early in the flight with that brief unexpected descent around 2117 UTC. We know that at one point he (maybe) dialled a completely incorrect altitude into the autopilot. We know the pilot was communicating on the radio, with apparently slurred speech, and he made no mention of mechanical issues or any problems at all. The almost symmetrical spiral descent seemed consistent with no active control inputs being applied. So the most likely explanation at this time is pilot incapacitation.
Juan you always state your efforts are a Team effort. Great Work!
A few years back I was staying at the inlaws close to the Mutton Mtn area.... after a few days of going stir crazy I borrowed on of their dirt bikes to go find an overlook they told me about. About a mile or so before the dirt road ended at the lookout the bike died right next to a rock pile about the size of a small outbuilding. Did the usual fiddling with the fuel selector and plug wire and it eventually fired. Rode to the end, ate a lunch, and on the way back it did the same thing in the same spot. This time I could coast for a ways and it started after another 15 min or so. Place gave me the creeps. Got goosebumps when I heard this happened there.
thanks for all you do juan. take good care of yourself, be safe out there!
Juan's ability to -- locate -- investigate -- educate -- the news in the aviation world exceeds expectations every time. A BIG THANK YOU
Great video Juan. Thank you for what you do for the community. One thing... if he had newer avionics installed... He might of had EDM mode which in the citation (on autopilot) and has a cabin altitude high warning and there is no response for around 30 seconds. The plane will automatically bug 15000ft turn left 90Deg start an rapid decent time intercept MMO normally around .737 depending on the model and level off at 15000ft. I’m only typed in the CE-525S but it’s a common system used in the citation models. Love your videos. Always learn something! Thank you. Max
So sad to see that 2021 is starting off with another tragic GA accident. You, Victor and Petter are my go-to guys for anything avation related!
My Theory - 2020 isn't over yet...until Chinese Lunar New Year.
(If it's 2020 somewhere, it's still 2020.)
As a lifetime local, and with one whole hour of rotor instruction out of Troutdale, that flight plan makes sense, on good weather days the wind is commonly out of the east from the Columbia River Gorge. So a quick circle after take off to gain altitude makes sense before crossing the mountains.
VASAviation does a wonderful job! Love both of your channels!
Sad to hear . thanks for the updates .Flying out of troutdale ,typically we head north or north east .Its a major approach to pdx .so we stay below 2500 until cleared for higher altitude Ifr .
Such a powerful video, thank you. When I was a grom a thousand years ago, my dad (a civilian but former Marine aviator) would take me up in a Cessna out of Troutdale. (We vacationed at the Hot Springs Rez). Your channel’s fantastic. Your viewers’ comments here are super insightful. Tragic.
Warm Springs Reservation -- lol
Back in the late 70s the USAF was offering altitude chamber to civilian commersial pilots. I went through the program at March AFB in Calif. A very good course for anyone flying at altitude. I lasted about 40 seconds at 28,000 feet.
I work right next door to March AFB. I will have to look into that, thanks!
@@FlyWithRookie Report back plz!
I doubt they still do that there. But I'd like to know too. Student pilot at Flabob who grew up next to March (grandfather's last unit).
I watched and listened the VAS aviation transcription, and at some moment i also thought it could be pilot incapacitation.
That spiral at the end on the radar with the descent numbers plummeting made me physically ill. So sad.
Yes, I viewed those as well.
I'm a truck driver and I take my significant other along sometimes. About 8500 she starts to sound like this. No medical issues had her checked out immediately. The altitude doesn't bother me so I guess everyone is different.
30 year History as a Paramedic retired. This guy sounded like a stroke patient to me with slurred speech, falling forward to the weak side holding the yoke and pulling it to the right causing the right turning spiral.
Was kinda thinking a recent onset of AFib that didn't tolerate mild hypoxia well, or something similar. Stroke fits the bill though. Definitely sounded more like a medical episode from the start. Hope it wasn't toxicological
@@danielw4401 AFib was a good differential call but once he started to spiral, well...occlusive stroke?
The thought was that an arrhythmia would explain the apparent altered mentation early in the flight, and that a decrease in oxygenation could have precipitated a deterioration to a more serious rhythm like RVR. Stroke is definitely a possibility. The seemingly gradual onset just had me thinking more about a circulatory collapse of some sort. Listing definitely provides a convincing explanation for the spiral though.
@@danielw4401 Absolutely a great possible differential diagnosis with RVR A-fib. I also thought about maybe an AMI with acute Bradycardia which would also lead to hypoxia at low altitude and of course as he climbed the conditions would have gotten worse in this scenario. Dying Heart = Dying Brain = Dying Heart. Vicious cycle as I use to teach new Medics.
First thought to my mind, after listening to the ATC, “possible stroke, or blood sugar issue”. Either of these events, and possibly, coupled in tandem, with another “issue” is certainly a plausible scenario, to me.
Symptoms of impairment before reaching altitudes where hypoxia are problematic would indicate some other type of medical event.
Diabetes (?) Stroke (?) Seizure (?) Intoxication (?) As Juan noted, he sounded 'off' from the start -
im questioning his impairment, how ever the unusual decent early in the flight is odd, his speach was different. Id like to hear him talking to departure or even TTD tower and compare his speech to later in the flight. he does a decent turns similar to what is in the check list for emergency decent. maybe he was having a medical issue himself and realized it, however he flys the plane. near the end he does get into quite tight turns hes not stall spin. It will be interesting to see what was going on.
@@raybankes7668 I wonder if he finally realizes there is something wrong with him, assumes it's hypoxia and starts an emergency descent which doesn't help because he is experiencing something else.
@@doug112244 lower altitude can help in almost all medical cases (except epileptic seizures), so an emergency descent seems a good idea, if possible.
If you have a 100% oxygen source, it can keep you alive in cases when you would normally die, even at low altitude. So if you have similar symptoms to hypoxia, even on the ground, using that oxygen mask is very good idea (it could be a stroke, AFib, basically any cardiac, pulmonary or vascular event).
Juan, I looked at LiveATC and there was audio from 3RB's clearance readback, taxi, and takeoff on the ground frequency at TTD (tower frequency was having issues around T/O time for 3RB). He sounded older and slower on the radio than most, but not impaired. He did have radio issues just after take off when he was being released to departure frequency.
I remember my first chamber ride! It was at Shaw AFB in SC. Simple arithmetic became very difficult! Coincidentally the EB-66 my grandfather flew in Vietnam is on display at the front gate.
Working for Cessna at One of the factory owned service center for over 33 years, I would imagine they have people on sight. Horrible news.
It's always awful to hear that anybody has crashed. I was Marine Corps Aircrew for several years and training taught me a lot about aeromed and all that can go wrong and lead to a crash. Oddly enough, the altitude chamber picture used in your excellent presentation was the one I was trained in. (Marine C-130 Loadmasters used to go through Little Rock AFB for basic loadmaster training) In it I learned what my symptoms are, where I get symptomatic, and how to handle myself and crewmates when hypoxia rears its ugly head. Would be a shame if it were that "simple" of a problem, but I think others are correct that there was likely something else that was supplemental to or precipitous to hypoxia symptoms.
Thanks Juan For That Report.
That was relatively Close To Where I Live ....With in 60 miles.
WOW...really appreciate this update. Thank you for your expertise and explanations.
Thanks for the updated/amended post. Now it’s much better. One request: When you’re playing the audio and commenting/explaining (and, they are excellent explanations, thanks) please pause the file so you’re not talking over the recorded speech.
Dan Gryder’s theory (Probable Cause) is startlingly different and my comment about his video: When the forensic psychological investigation is complete we may know what really happened. For example, is his life highly insured? And, what is his relationship to the other person on board? Were there mass covid-19 deaths at one or more of his businesses? Was he under investigation for that and more financial troubles?
Love your channel, great inside explanation into aviation, always willing to learn, sharing knowledge, knowing your own limits. Best Aviation Channel there is! Please don't spoil by too many ads in between.
Dennis from Germany
Have done one instrument departure from Troutdale, it was a climbing left turn before heading south, due to high terrain immediately south and east of airport.
Thanks Juan, we love you
Juan, Thank you for this video. I live in the Portland area and spent 10 years as an A and P. This one is close to home. RIP to all involved.
I am learning more every video Juan as a non pilot. It is a sad story again, but your incite is much appreciated. Will be interesting to know the fate of this aircraft and preventative measures for the future. Cheers from down under!
Thanks for another excellent report, Juan. As a contractor I was required to go through the altitude chamber. I went to Brooks until they’d closed it down. As a private pilot learning my hypoxic symptoms was invaluable. One day we were on a test flight with us contractors and Air Force personnel. The guy next to me asked if I felt funny, and I said yes. A little tingly which is one of my symptoms we called the front end to check the pax (pressurization) and we had been at a cabin altitude of 18,000 ft so we all donned on our masks and carried on. Without the training that would have been unsettling. OH you are right about the color wheel. I couldn’t believe one puff of oxygen and the black and white wheel turned to brilliant colors. I think all general aviation pilots should go on a chamber ride. I talked to an FAA rep at Oshkosh about this experience and he said they could go to Oklahoma City and the FAA would give them a chamber ride free. Don’t know if that is still going on. But any of you GA pilots out there should definitely look into it. It is probably the best thing you could do to keep you safe. thanks again for another great video!
Sad event JB. Condolences to all involved.
Interesting information re: hypoxia. Learning stuff from continuously. Will keep my antenna up for your updates.
Shout out to Victor from VAS. 👍🏽
Take care and fly safe. 🖖🏽🤟🏽
Thanks Juan. As an air traffic controller, I'm looking intently for anything that jumps out to me as perhaps something a controller might have been able to catch in time to perhaps make a difference. The controllers sensed some radio and perhaps navigation difficulties, but nothing that strikes me as sufficiently out of the ordinary as to merit particular concern until it was far too late. With hindsight, the pilot's voice wasn't fast and crisp, but we all hear lots of pilots a day who aren't fast and crisp on the frequency. I agree that he does not seem to have been on autopilot at the end, as no autopilot I know of would do multiple 360-degree turns without very specific and unusual pilot input to do so.
Listen to his respiration on-mic. Something not sounding right there....
I thought the controller did a get job. Saying that 370 was set in the altitude alerter based on the data block shows a lack of knowledge of the systems in airplanes.
The FAA's aviation physiology course is offered to civil aviation pilots at its Aeronautical Center site in Oklahoma City.
And not just the chamber ride but the whole course was outstanding! CAMI Summer '84.
Thank you Juan. Prayers for families and responders. RIP.
I have a feeling this wasn’t hypoxia, the guy seems off from the start, and most people would not experience harsh symptoms of hypoxia that quickly at 13-14 thousand feet (for reference, the FAA doesn’t even post a useful time of consciousness at the altitude, and at 18000ft they state 20-30 minutes). This seems like it was intoxication or stroke or something
I had a similar feeling. It could have been one factor leading to the next.
I was going to mention the low altitude of onset as well. I was thinking something medical initially. The tight spiral could have been the passenger trying to pull up and tightening it but i pray that wasn’t it. How realistic is a carbon monoxide scenario in a jet? I’ve never really heard that mentioned other than for piston aircraft so seems unlikely. Anyway, yeah, he was sounding slurred even below the altitude (14.5k ft) where the FAA requires O2 for unpressurized aircraft. Condolences to anyone affected. 😞
@@billb.7346 Exactly - the only thing explaining the passenger failing to yank the yoke up to climb - is they were incapacitated too.
Only thing I can think of that matches what we see - Carbon Monoxide poisoning.
I think the best clues to the crash will be found in maintenance records - as the bodies are likely...gone.
@@Dr_Kenneth_Noisewater the passenger was very likely to have been seated back in the cabin.
That thought hit me in the face. Sounds more like a condition that allows a few words to come through crisply, what would that be? Intox? Meds?
Starting 2021 with two " home runs" so far Mr Juan...Love and learn so much from your channel!! #1...
I assume that the "sine wave" variation in groundspeed at the end is an effect of an alternating headwind/tailwind in the descending spiral?
Yes.
@@blancolirio the pilot was sluggishly speaking when he was at 14,000. Kinda low for being full on hypoxic even with NO cabin pressurization...
Stroke, aneurism , thrombosis, heart event and medicine side effects are possible, followed by alcohol or recreational drugs.
I doubt there was anything wrong with the aircraft.
@@stay_at_home_astronaut Not only the slurred speech, but the labored breathing.
It's in a moving air mass. The airplane doesn't care , headwind... tailwind...The bird is seeking equilibrium. .....When my model gliders did that I'd just re-trim the tail feathers or adjust the CG......Stops the hunting. .....Your GS will vary due to the HW or TW I may be wrong but it's what my father taught when I about nine or ten.....But he was only in AF flight test and it was way back in fifties so who knows how times and the laws of physics have changed Capt. Mike SAT
@@dawnboyd1753 Flightradar 24 gets ADS-B groundspeed, not airspeed.
Tough deal all around. In multi crew aircraft we are also trained to announce if we are not feeling well... ie: "I am feeling light headed/drowsy" The intent is to trigger a coordinated crew response into finding out if incapacitation is imminent. With single pilot operations, this additional safeguard is unavailable. BTW I listened to the last TX numerous times and it does suggest some slurring... although I doubt I would have picked up on it initially.
Baron Pilot recently posted up an example his wife experiencing hypoxia during a flight. Giddy, singing, euphoria. Luckily recognized and remedied.
I wonder of the previous repair had anything to do with it?, based on the above video it looking like failure to pressurize..
Yes, at 12,000 ft
That’s soo sad! Already 2021 there are two accidents already.
One is the Boeing 737 500 SLP182
The other is the Cessna citation N3RB
Thank You Juan and VASAviation, and Captain Moonbeam
Looking at Foreflight the airport, KTTD, has one Departure - Blue Lake 3. Departing Runway 7 climb via heading 055 degrees to 1,000' then turn left to 310 degrees or as vectored. The plate shows flying to Battleground VOR (BTG) then specific radials from the VOR, V520 (R-089) being the most likely IF they weren't vectored otherwise. The VOR is due north of Portland International (KPDX). There's also a Note: Rwy 7 requires a minimum climb gradient of 430' per NM to 4,000' (not that bad). Rwy 7 is 5,399' long. Field elevation is 39'. There is also a DIverse Vector Area Notice that's too long to reproduce here.
THANK you for the update on 3RB Juan
You are so informative when you cover one of these events. Us civil aviation has so many guys and girls like you. You are envy of rest of the world. I got my private pilot cert in 1973, but unfortunately didn't get my instr cert. I was inbound at Canton,oh airport when Thurmond Munsen crashed his new citation. What a nerve rattler. Be safe,. Bill
Mahalo for the info.
I was USN Aircrew. I went in the chamber with a few other classmates to learn our symptoms of hypoxia. I felt like I had a few drinks in about 1min. We played certain games while waiting for the effects,like patty cake, writing our SSN ect. I also saw grey on the color chart. 1 crew member actually got a nose bleed!
The controller's main concern in getting him to respond towards the end is not just his unpredictability and busting his altitude assignment but United climbing up his tailpipe. That was the reason for holding onto and verifying 3RB's 230 altitude restriction and 2240 ends up having to be vectored out of the way.
That's what I was thinking. United 2240 is climbing right behind N3RB out of FL240 with a 100KT overtake, requesting FL390, when N3RB starts his right turn. You can see that the controller working United, the higher sector person at this point, gives United an immediate left turn to the NE, in order to avoid N3RB. It was about a 60° left turn, pretty drastic climbing out of FL240. The controllers had no way of knowing what N3RB might do. It would be interesting to hear the coordination amongst the controllers when the situation was developing.
Juan I really enjoy your channel. Incredibly detailed while maintaining concise, actionable information. Your saving lives looking forward. No doubt. With that said, I’m truly baffled why RUclips demonetizes your videos? Is there anyway you could provide clarity on this question? Again, thank you for what you do.
I noticed from VASAviations video that he sounded slurred, but he was at 14,000ft. There’s no way you’re gonna suffer from hypoxia after just taking off and teaching that altitude. His speech did get better. It could be a stroke, though.
Thank you, Juan and Victor. I know that area quite well, as I've driven through it a number of times. As you drive on hwy 97 through the reservation, it just looks like another town. It's quite modern, and not reminiscent at all of driving through the Arizona area, where the individual tribes dress and hold as much as possible to the old ways. That's not to say that the Oregon tribes don't honor the old ways. It just doesn't show to us non-native Americans.
This accident sounds very familiar.
On October 2016, a Citation 560 with former Premiere Jim Prentice on board did something very similar to what N3RB did. On climb out to assigned altitude from Kelowna, BC (YLW), the aircraft suddenly nose-dived and spiraled into mountainous terrain killing all on board (4 souls if I remember correctly.) Canada's TSB put it down to pilot disorientation, as the impact completely destroyed the aircraft.
I've been subscribed to VAS Aviation for several years now.
I was an AME in the US Navy on the USS America during the 6 Day War, I loaded Liquid Oxygen onto the aircraft....................... It was great for hangovers at 17-21 years old
We took O2 bottles to crew rest at LaPaz, Bolivia because the field elevation was over 14,000'. One glass of wine with dinner was too much! ;)
It was also great for making instant Gatorade slushies at Altus when the flightline could hit 115 in August!
You can't evaluate vocal patterns without a baseline. Lot's of people speak slowly or with a drawl. There seems to be a tacit competition to keep it fast and crisp though among some pilots, but that is not universal.
That's true, but I think most of us would agree that something wasn't right with this guy from the get-go. That's just not a normal speech pattern. The controller seems to have picked up on it as well, asking the pilot if there were problems with his radio.
Perhaps he was up in age? You’re right, though, about not having a baseline. I’ve met pilots who could barely walk (and that’s with a walker), type rated in something, still current, and still maintain their medical (don’t ask me how that is).
@@golfnovember That's what I was thinking. Just listen to Harrison Ford in a promotional video he made a few years ago, called Wings Over the Rockies. His admittedly staged ATC transactions make him sound nearly narcoleptic. Same pacing as the pilot here. I think Ford was trying to go for a "relaxed" tone, but ended up with hypnotic.
I wonder if one could compare his speech patterns at take off with his speech later in the flight.
@@curtbarnes54 If he was having a evolving stroke or other medical event, the speech may have been slurred from takeoff too. Better to get speech from a comparable flight on previous date.
Well done and researched, think you may have hit the nail on the head, but will wait till the results are out.
That the passenger did not seemingly attempt to use the microphone, suggests he/she was incapacitated as well. This also raises a question about supply of supplemental oxygen. The pilot could not have been unaware that about 10 passenger masks would have dropped. That would explain why his climb was briefly stopped at 13,000. Supply valve was off or oxygen not serviced? I read where he had purchased the plane in October when it went through a prebuy inspection and service in Scottsdale and he had not flown it since November. Preflight inspection? Checklist?
Thanks for another informative video.
May all the souls that were on that aircraft Rest In Peace.
It will be interesting to see the outcome of this accident.
Excellent breakdown. Love the inclusion of VASAviation and Flightradar24, both of which I use constantly. I also immediately thought hypoxia, but as another comment mentioned, the pilot seemed off even prior to reaching the higher flight levels where hypoxia would (normally) start to affect him, although different people have different tolerances. Such a tragic incident, will be interesting to see the final NTSB report to help us understand what happened.
Was a suicide.
Was waiting for this. This was a very odd crash. Imagine how ATC felt knowing it was about to happen.
It's a terrible feeling when you can't get an aircraft to respond. It's never happened to me, but it has to a few of my co-workers.
@@Dan-xm1og I worked for a medical (helicopter) transportation company, as a dispatcher. On a miserably overcast Sunday, one of our helicopters developed radio problems between, and during three (10 minute interval) radio position checks. It was literally 30 minutes of hell, which was relieved only when I received a Nextel 'chirp' from the pilot, letting us know that he'd set down at Martin State Airport (KMTN), and that all was okay.
My sympathy and condolences to those affected by this tragic loss. It's getting so that I can't stand tuning in to the news anymore, it's all bad....
Very sad indeed. Juan, thanks for a very thoughtful presentation and your insights. A great service to aviation community.
I think the pilot got the pressure altitude warning, and was fiddling with it while proceeding to miss the initial radio call. When ATC gave him a serious warning about terrain, he hastily set the autopilot altitude, and perhaps mixed up the desired altitude with the desired rate of climb. His rate of ascent was about 2300 feet per minute, and his chosen altitude was 370 hundred feet. These numbers may make more sense if he put them in backwards and then went back to trying to troubleshoot the pressure issues, but he was already close to the edge of performance degradation. With alarms, terrain, and possibly now troubleshooting autopilot, I'm wondering if he used his supplemental oxygen, or if it didn't work.
Awesome captmoonbeam’s shoutout.. love his channel too
Once again Juan well done. THANKS
Super video! I applauded for $5.00 👏👏
Thanks for sharing your videos. 😎
Thanks Ben!
So admire your knowledge and professionalism in these videos. Very clear and interesting, especially to a non pilot like myself.
Fantastic in-depth study Juan. Sad demise of pax, pilot and aircraft. 2021 is taking life wholesale. Go well.
This sounds like pilot voices I hear every day on the radio. I would not have suspected anything out of the ordinary had I heard his voice.
Excellent video. Condolences to the families of those onboard.
This is some fabulous analysis.
Good job, Juan.
Thanks Juan! Always good information.
I knew Rick personally and professionally. One thing to note is he was short; maybe 5’ 4”-5’6”. The citation required 2 pilots in part to access the controls. Part of single pilot sign off is to ensure he can reach all necessary controls, including environmental controls. It’s possible he had hard time reaching.
Thanks JB, excellent as always.
I have no pilot experience but have become interested in aviation recently. Great channel with great explanations even for someone with minimal knowledge
Man, we aren't off to a good start for 2021. Sad, and tragic.
Thanks for the outstanding report. Sad news but well done
The Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device may be useful for some training but it won’t let you experience an explosive decompression like the older altitude chambers will. That is probably more useful for crew members.
Great Point!!
@@blancolirio Great content and timely, as always. Glad I could contribute a little.
While this is heart wrenching I appreciate the facts you present with each report. I'm not a pilot but I have experienced hypoxia and that's what I first thought here too. I hope there is something definitive found as a cause. It won't bring those poor souls back to their loved ones but maybe it'll make flying safer for others. Thanks again Juan.
It was a suicide
TAKEOFF RUNWAY 7: Climb via heading 055° to 1000', then turn left to 310° or as assigned.
TAKEOFF RUNWAY 25: Climb runway heading to 900', then turn right to 320° or assigned.
Notes; Rwy 7 requires a minimum climb gradient of 420' per NM to 4000'.
Rwy 25 requires a minimum climb of 310' per NM to 2000'
Plate effective until 28 Jan, 2021
What a strange and unfortunate flight for the pilot who sure sounded like he was struggling for some yet-unknown reason. It's awkward that the first name drop of TTD that I hear, where I once rented a 172 to fly the prescribed sightseeing loop around Mt. St. Helens on a vacation trip long ago, is this peculiar loss.
Thanks for the info Juan.
So very sad. Thanks for excellent report.
I've used the Navy's version of the ROBD and I found it 200% better then the Chamber ride. The chamber was fun, but the ROBD is more scientific and provides a-lot of great feed back (O2 levels vs feelings). Thanks again for the videos!!
9:50 - Heartbreaking. Rest in peace.
I had a lack of oxygen event from a severe bleeding ulcer. Went "out" talking to the paramedic. My 'dream' was in b&w and it was best mood ever. They got some blood to my brain and I came back. I was disappointed as no oxygen to my brain was wonderful. Evidently not recommended, long term hypoxia that is.
As ways to go out go, prolonged hypoxia doesn't seem so bad. I used to be in a bad place and one of my suicide plans i made involved displacing oxygen by breathing nitrogen or helium. As long as you continue to expel CO2 you don't get the suffocation reflexes or pain.
@@TheSpacecraftX glad you're still here;
That was a great analysis and possible scenarios of this tragedy.
His voice isn't entirely slurred at the beginning, it's more slurred making certain sounds, and that sounds like a stroke to me. But from other people who've had strokes, they don't always realise they're having one while still being conscious.
I’m guessing you’re a doctor ?
@@Gus1966-c9o No, but I've read people's accounts of minor strokes that they were able to recover from sufficiently to write about it later. Richard O'Brien, who wrote the rocky horror show, recently gave an account of having a stroke. He was sort of functioning but a bit confused as to why something wasn't quite happening as he thought it should (I think from recollection he was trying to put the lid on the teapot) but it was his wife who quickly realised he was having a stroke
Nice job Juan! Thanks