Conditions of Reunion with Rome
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 окт 2023
- Orthodox Depot: orthodoxdepot.com/?ref=telos
Telosbound has partnered with Orthodox Depot, the premier marketplace for Orthodox Christian goods, boasting an extensive selection of high-quality and affordable handcrafted crosses, prayer ropes, icons, books, and even apparel. Orthodox Depot is dedicated to aiding Orthodox communities worldwide. Notably, they successfully raised funds for the restoration of the Holy Trinity Monastery in Serbia. Use our referral link for 10% off your first order!
→ orthodoxdepot.com/?ref=telos
🎙️TELOSBOUND DISCORD: / discord
✍️SUBSTACK: substack.com/@telosbound
😇 PATREON: / telosbound
(includes many perks such as exclusive content, Q&A access, monthly calls with Trey, and more!)
👼 TREY’s book “Aphesis: The Impossibility of Subjectivity”: amzn.to/3hzxZAR
❤️ JOIN this channel to get access to perks:
/ @telosbound
---------------------------
HASHTAGS:
#philosophy #theology #metaphysics #ontology #orthodox #christianity #orthodoxchristianity #communion #church #jesus #christ #catholic #bible #hegel #negation #dialectics #epistemology #psychoanalysis #logic #ethics #theory #socialtheory #apologetics #God #aphesis #subjectivity #paradox #contradiction #reading #books #intellectual #conservative #politicaltheory #sigma #staniloae #trinity #ecumenism
Full livestream (and AMA privileges) available on Patreon: www.patreon.com/Telosbound
The first step would be to have *regular conciles* , like in the old days.
Even if non binding.
Just the image of seeing all of the popes together as one, would be a powerful sign projected onto the world.
Also for Orthodox, it would make them safer, especially in the Middle-East. And for us Catholics, it would diminish the theological damage of current woke-Pope Francis.
I often think of how much history would have been different if even the east-west schism didn’t happen.
While the great schism was the final nail in the coffin for a united east and west, the west had been drifting away for centuries prior. It was probably only a matter of time for the schism to happen.
It would have been glorious.
@@TheVietnameseCatholicprobably less Muslim conquests and more Christians
Thank you from a catholic in Scotland ✝️☦️🏴🇷🇸
Catholic here, this was a very well made and informative video. Thank you! ✝️🤝☦️
Ultimately I’m grateful for the east for its emphasis on tradition. The Catholic Church sometimes feels a little Protestant but luckily many are starting to embrace the Latin mass as well as the Byzantine Catholic liturgy.
All glory to Christ
As a Colombian i agree. Roman church now is just another protestant church
@@Jh0nJhonwhat??
Yes, cuz Jesus and Peter spoke in Latin. Right?
@@wilsontexasChrist likely used Latin when speaking to Pilate. St. Peter may have used Latin when he arrived in Rome (he obviously had the gift of tongues as referenced by the book of Acts).
Also, the use of liturgical Latin has more to do with the fact that it is one of the languages nailed to the cross. The Latin Mass is the only liturgy that uses all three languages (Greek, Latin, Hebrew) during its prayers.
@@wilsontexasdo you think the Romans spoke in Hebrew to Jesus?
Your comments are excellent.
We must search for unity but ONLY under Tradition never under heresies
Huge facts
Traditions of the early church or the medieval church? The early church didn't pray to anyone except God the Father or the Son of God.
@@wilsontexas don’t start.
@@wilsontexas Sub tuum praesidium was written in the 200s.
Protestant tradition started in the Middle Ages. Eusibius wrote that after Jesus healed the bleeding woman the people made a statue there right after as a memorial and early icon. The shroud of Turin is an icon. The early Christians were Jews and burned incense in the temple… doesn’t seem like a medieval innovation to me only Protestantism seems like the innovation here
No one is teaching heresy. Orthodox claim the EO is professing heresy. Would you agree? There must come a time when adherents grow up and out of this blind unfounded hate.
You were thinking of Joseph Kuntsevych
Laudetur Jesus Christus. Not trying to evoke any anger or things of that sort but it was astonishing to hear this about saint Josaphat. He was martyred by an angry mob (of Orthodox). Just checking quickly if I did not miss anything, I found this as well: On November 12, 1923, the tercentenary of Josaphat's martyrdom, Pope Pius XI declared him the heavenly Patron of Reunion between Orthodox and Catholics.
God bless.
Glad you didn't go the orthodox-version-of-feeneyism route like i have seen some orthodox go
Remember Athenagoras moved to Paul 6 in the first place and I congratulate him for his courage and determination during this huge and historical step. I am sure that he was lead by the Holy Spirit.
What icon is the thumbnail, and how do I get it?
its ai art
Pray for Rome!
Pray for Rome?😮
How come?😢
Rome is 1.300 billion Christians, Orthodoxy is 0.250 billion only!😊
@@voxangeli9205 something is more, what does this has to do true or falsity of it, Islam has 1.500 billion Muslims, are they right? Obviously no
@@voxangeli9205 why would that matter? There are more Muslims than Catholics for example, and Islam isnt the truth
@@logosfidem, what did Jesus say in the Gospels about the the growth of the Kingdom?
How do you understand the parable about seeds on Mark 4:26-32, culminating in verses 30-32?
The logic and God's providence is very simple and no-brainer: if Catholicism is the wrong version of Christianity, as many put it, then Catholicism would naturally be reduced and sink into minority, as many are and had become.
Hasn't the whole Christianity's history witnessed it?
Just the same: 1.300 billion vs. 0.250 billion. Too far and wide of a margin.
It's not too hard to read between the lines.
Cheerio.
@@logosfidem, and, oh, also, by the way, as my second response, you don't compare Catholicism against Islam (although the margin is not that wide).
Wrong comparison, philosopher.
Instead, you compare Muslims for Islam (1.7 billion) against Christians for Christianity (2.5 billion), as world religions.
So, it's 2.5 billion Christians vs. 1.7 billion Muslims.
Now, that's logical, Mr. Philosopher.
We Orthodox love Teresa of Jesus and John of the Cross
🙏🔥☦️🪔📜🙏
As a Catholic, I would say that what keeps us apart (Papal Primacy aside) is mainly (a) a misunderstanding of what the Filioque clause is, which shouldn't be a real problem since Florence; (b) Resentments as a result of some historical mistakes on both sides (but I would say this cuts deeply into the Orthodox side, in general the Latins no longer hold grudges over the massacre of the Latins, for example, but I feel there is an ongoing resentment in relation to the Sack of Constantinople in the Orthodox community).
The sack of Constantinople arguable leads directly to the current occupation of constantinople/istanbul by the Turks, while Rome/Vatican city is respected and recognized world over, the sack of Rome long forgotten. It's only natural that the Orthodox would bear a grudge for something ongoing.
@@laggrenade863 Yet who holds a grudge for the Massacre of the Latins in Constantinople in 1182?
We should rebuild the Pentarchy as it was before the Council of Chalcedon. The Churches of the three Council need to be add in this serious discussion and we should know what they think about a possibility of reunion...
There are multiple sources (which are not forgeries) that undoubtedly prove the filioque. A RUclipsr named dwong proves this in several of his videos.
whether or not someone IS a saint, is only up to God.
st paul says he bore the marks of our Lord Jesus Christ, the word used is stigmata or stigma
Regarding Saint Joseph Kuntsevych, the reason why the Orthodox believe he was a murderer is because of a supposed letter from a Polish royal. Ironically that same Polish royal was the one to recommend him for canonization. That letter is probably inauthentic.
All I can say is let us walk in christ and not in ego. This ego is a human trait and nothing to do with God . Let us one day rejoin together again
Idk if Orthodox know this, all the Orthodox would have to do is:
- Recognize the Rome’s unique authority
- Not reject the Filioque (don’t have to accept it, but can reject it)
- Not reject Immaculate Conception
- Not reject the Assumption
There’s a lot of differences that in the Catholic mind are a difference in emphasis. And in the Orthodox mind (from my understanding) those differences are a difference in doctrine.
A key thing for the Orthodox would be to take a look at those differences and sift through to see what things are doctrine and what things are emphasis. Often, from what I have found, is that the doctrine is the same in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, but the expression and articulation is different.
Both Churches recognize that man’s nature has been tainted since the Fall. But the articulation of what that actually means is different. And having access to both articulations of the one truth opens the door to a better understanding of the whole Truth.
The idea that one articulation is the best and only articulation neglects the other legit and historical articulation(s).
Kinda went in a tangent. But basically, the Catholic and Orthodox believe the same stuff in essence, while the expression is different. And the Orthodox sees the expression as believing a different thing.
Maybe we can say it this way, the expression (and articulation) of Mary’s sinlessness is secondary to her sinlessness, because the two articulations come from the common belief that she is sinless. And the two articulations have grown in their own way over time. In different languages, cultures, civilizations, and so on.
Your opening statements seem to undercut the charitable tone I think you intended: it reads like, "All the Catholics have to do is become Orthodox."
Regarding some of your specific suggestions: for papal authority, I don't see many of us budging on this one. Maybe if the current pope wasn't so...keen to appear progressive, but even then, I doubt it.
I don't know that we reject the Immaculate Conception categorically. My (very limited and recently converted) understanding is that our "version" of original sin makes it superfluous. We reject inherited guilt, and so see every conception as "immaculate." Although I don't think we would use that term...
Regarding the Assumption, we may be close enough for horseshoes (or not). We believe that Mary was assumed, but that first she died and was resurrected after 3 days.
In general though, I'll do whatever my bishop does.
"don't have to accept it, but can't reject it." Makes little to no sense.
Truth cannot be reconciled with a lie and still be the truth!
Yep. But y'all need to ease up on changes that we're needed to clarify and prevent garbage theology in Germany. Changes you don't have theological disagreement with. Peter was put in charge so the Church could have a single voice when needed.
@@userJohnSmithNo he wasn’t.
@@Sumabus yes he was read the Gospel
@@albertoc8151 find my the verse where “Peter was put in charge of the Church.”
@@Sumabus It's incredibly clear that yes he was. What Bible are you reading?
If both want reunion both will have to make some compromises . The Catholics more compromise , the papal infallibility must be gone , the original definition of the bishop of Rome and the first among equals being more of an honorary title and I think the bishop of Rome , even as a honorary title there should be a vote like the conclave for it by all the united . Orthodox and Catholics have writings on the original together church and that’s what must be adhered to as a starting point . Technically we are unified under the council of Florence .
Francis of Assisi claimed he was Christ´s physical brother. Clearly in spiritual delusion (aka prelest). All errors must be condemned in the reunion. No-one can be a saint who died in a heresy, such as Romanism.
God is, in the ultimate analysis, solution-focused, solving problems and giving the opportunity of salvation.
So, how will the current divisions be resolved?
Prophecies help to highlight this.
It is with the fulfilment of the final parts (20-24) of the Anonymous Prophecy of Mount Athos of 1053 that : the Latins (i.e. the West) will return to Orthodoxy; the Roman Papacy will cease; there will be one Patriarchate for all of Europe; Constantinople will already have been returned to the Greeks (which means, from other prophecies, such as from an Eldress of Georgia of mixed Greek, Russian and Georgian Royal descent, that they will have returned to the Patristic (aka Old) Calendar by then, because without this reversion Greece will be destroyed, in accordance with her Prophecy); and finally, they will be, amidst rejoicing, united under one flock under one True Orthodox shepherd . We have already seen the fulfilment of parts 1-12 of this prophecy in its entirety. Part 12 is Revolution in India and the expulsion of the English (1947), for example. Part 13 England for the Saxons only, is unfolding now (Brexit, etc).
This clearly involves World Orthodoxy repenting and becoming True Orthodox as part of the process.
Stop this Palamasian theology. It stands in contrast to Christ's Will and promotes more division.
Can you tell me where you saw that Saint Francis of Assisi said that?
@@DasBeard Read St. Seraphim of Sarov, Vladimir Moss, Seraphim Rose and many others on this subject.
@@adrianwhyatt594 I’d rather look for a primary source to see what he actually said. Im sure you’re personally genuine but I have a feeling this claim was popularized as a bad faith interpretation that he called Christ his physical brother. I’ve seen people claim it’s in his First Rule of the Franciscan Order but it’s not.
@@DasBeard Then you'll have to search the relevant archives back to Francis of Asisi's time
I pray that one day Jesus's desire for unity will be made manifest. for more than a thousand years there was one church. the east started is tip toe out of the west in the 11th century, but after the council of Florence it was completely severed. the west takes for granted the notion that Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. but the breaking point was when the east mate out clear that they only believe that holy spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
But if we are to speak accurately in the West in truth the HS proceeds (is genrated) from the Father through the Son.
@eabm1984 exactly, the Nicene creed speaks the truth of the matter.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
this speaks definitively about the nature of God. and I pray that all of Christendom will be unified through this creed and beyond.
Ecumenism is a heresy. 🤫
I am extremely suspicious of many of the recent canonizations.
I am no theologian, but I don't get why the Filioque is such a problem. If The Son inherits all that is of The Father, and the Son is one with the Father, how can the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and have nothing to do with the Son. Obviously, The Father is the principal source, and all things come from The Father. This primacy is clearly reflected in the language of the Filioque. It is one thing to not include it, but it is another to reject it. Rejecting the Filioque is like saying The Son is almost one with The Father, and The Son does not participate fully joined to The Father. In that case, how can Christ breathe upon his Apostles and say, "Receive The Holy Spirit". Would He have not asked His Father to breathe The Holy Spirit upon them? Clearly, both sides need to hammer out the theology together to assess the Truth of the Filioque and bind all believers to the outcome. If they find that the Filioque is True, then that would add weight to the claim of Papal infallibility. The reverse I suppose might prove the claim false. However, I do not assert anything and leave it to the Whole Church with The Holy Spirit to clarify. This is just my understanding of the issue, and I await the day both sides can come to a formal consensus. In my opinion, I think the barriers of coming together have more to do with the legalistic language that the West uses to explain the faith where the East prefers a more organic and spiritual language. If both sides can cross that bridge, I think that all the perceived differences in doctrine can be reconciled, and healing can start. I believe we are one Church, East and West, divided only by human nature. I think we need each other more than ever if we are to effectively fight the heresies of the modern world and the complacency in faith of those who call themselves Catholic or Orthodox yet live fully in the secular world and pay Christ no mind until it suits them.
as a Catholic all I mainly care about is we keep the filouqe and the pope
lol why though? The pope has been committing apostasy for the last 6 popes.
If under one baptism , no problem
Isn't papal supremacy just a follow on from the tradition of ancient Israel? Like moses was their leader and when others challenged his supremacy they were punished by God
Giving the mess Christianity is in now that protestantism has happened, the Orthodox and Catholic Church need to come together again. Now more then ever.
I get that this is a hypothetical, and just an interesting display of thought
but I hope none of you think this would or even want for this to occur. Rome created a tangibly different religion that trickles down to the most fundamentally important facets, anyone who says otherwise is woefully ignorant of the two religions.
on the tragic day that a branch of the Church seeks to unify with Rome - whatever sensible branches remaining will cut it off - a more interesting practice of thought is the question of - what happens in that situation? how do you reconcile canonicity of those cut themselves free from the apostates, how do we answer the question of the ecumenical patriarchate(the most likely branch of the Church to attempt heresy)?
In your comment, you assume that no theological discussions or understandings have occurred between Rome and a theoretical branch of Orthodoxy. However, with theology being at the core of the schism, I really REALLY doubt that either the latins or the Orthodox would join together (unless there were to be external political pressure IE the Habsburg’s forcing orthodox Christian’s to “convert” to eastern catholicism). Rome MIGHT be okay with an orthodox community joining in communion without any theological changes on either side (eastern catholicism), but historically the orthodox community wouldn’t let that happen (except for outside pressure like before).
With all that being said, If neither side changed theological positions, then the remaining orthodox community would cut the people off from parking in the sacraments who willingly chose the western heresy (which I BELIEVE is the Orthodox position regarding eastern Catholics, but I’m neither a priest nor an expert)
@@user-ux7uw2ej8d it is already within the Roman rite's canons that the orthodox Church is valid, so there would be no clerical issues on their end. And I would estimate that about half of their followers admire the Church and would love to be in union with it (the other half greatly despise and would be upset)
and there currently is real pressure for this to happen. State departments are currently influencing hierarchal decisions on both sides. They would gladly sell out their people.
This has happened before in the orthodox Church - the approval to use the new calendar - which no followers, nor any respected figures in the Church asked for or wanted. This caused the greatest conflict within the Church since the first great schism and is still a heated topic to this day 100 years later
Also I believe the Philioque should be stopped because Scripture doesn't teach this, in fact Jesus Christ himself teaches in more then one passage that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and he will ask the Father and the Father will send him to us.
What about Revelations 22:1? I've always seen this as an image of the Filioque doctrine.
The biggest issue today is the Novus Ordo. This liturgy puts the Eucharist not as a Sacrement.The Position of the Papacy, is argued even among Catholic scholars.
The eucharist is still the highest of sacraments and the summit of our faith. Nothing has changed on the eucharist post V2.
Secondly, which catholic scholars have argued about the papacy?
Your wrong my friend. The Novus Ordo is responsible for the Massive growth in Korea and Africa.
Places we never though would have growth.
@@vman9347I don’t think this is a good argument for the Novus Ordo. As an orthodox Christian, I’m indifferent to it either way, but arguing that watering down the faith for mass appeal is no different than Protestantism
@@DylanEmelio-oz5rd except that’s not quite accurate. I do love the Orthodox church and I actually go an Eastern Catholic Church so I understand the need to hold on to traditions.
But a case of the Novus Order is yes it’s not perfect and many people in the west wish we could return to a more traditional liturgy like the Latin Mass.
However to say they’re is no benefit to the Novus order is a lie. Like I mentioned before the NO is responsible for massive growth In the church is Asian and Africa because they were allowed to incorporate their culture and language into the masses.
The Novus Order is just as holy as the Latin Mass. And it’s nowhere near Protestantism since we kept the Core of the Faith which is the trust presence of the Eucharistic and other things.
@@vman9347
A. Novus Ordo is nothing more than a made up term not oficial or any rite or mass or The Church. It was coined by enemies of The Church to associate post VII liturgy to the New World Order conspiracy.
2. Your cult is professing traditionalism which is a heresy, among the other heresies youbare committing. You are, actively, returning to an early church heresy claiming to follow Christ's true church. You guys are just a new type of protestantism.
The only things that the Orthodoxy would have to accept is the authority of the papacy with acceptances to infallible dogma and minor adjustments to palamist theology. They wouldn’t have to speak the Filioque in the creed, rather accept the theology behind it while keeping the cultural traditions that they safeguard
Where is Jesus Christ in this CC dogma?
I wish that the Schism could be healed but the papacy issue would need to first be resolved. Because One Man should not have soul authority over all the church besides Jesus Christ. The Bishops should rule over their regions
No
Saint Josaphat Kuntsevich, Martyr for the Holy Union.
The schism WAS solved at Florence.
St Mark of Ephesus rejected it, and along with him, the Slavic churches including Moscow followed in the rejection of the union.
I don't venerate the saints, so much as I rever the wisdom of the giants holding me up.
But, those giants will soon be close friends and I treat them as such.
But, at the same time.
What I honor is not what you nessecarily honor. For instance? I adore Charles Spurgeon and, DL Moody.
3:30
We neither need nor want a reuinion. We are supposed to have variations.
The real reuinion is in heaven. Its irrelevant here. We do have to respect each other though.
And. 4:42 i would say the Orthodox Church is the proper root.
I know my history from the occult side.
I AM GAURENTEEING YOU THIS NOW AS FACT.
The Vatican is a giant Soul Farm. The throne was given whole to a devil and IIRC the Principality is the Whore. Or Babylon. Im never sure. I dont care like that.
The problems in catholicism go beyond dogma.
The spirit is rotting.
The head is a goat. Leading goats who abuse the shepherds.
8:50
The Pope is a Jesuit. In my world? That was a big no-no and everyone knew it.
They only want to unify with you, in order to speed along the one world false religion.
You are their biggest threat.
We do not nees to merge anyone. We can learn across lanes. What we need is a unified direction.
The Vatican is the other direction.
The process of losing catholicism took centuries and it happened in stages and events over a long time.
But, the documents and verbal traditions of my people declare it like its the holy grail of end times signs.
We assumed it would happen before the sign if Jonah.
We nailed it. 😎
The Filioque is Orthodox.
No
And by the way...how old are you? With age and experience comes WISDOM in most cases. You have book knowledge...that is it. Get some humility young man
I think running this youtube channel and having to deal with criticism and haters will lead to maturity and humility in time. He is young, and will grow, and perhaps this channel will be the catalyst for his growth. God bless.
@@milko540 I am not a hater by the way...his comments are either out of ignorance and pride. Today's youth speak of the time mentioned in Scrpture where it mentions man being full of "knowledge" but no Wisdom. And children who are indolent towards their parents and elders. Sad times indeed.
Simmer down there, sparky.
NO.
Unless the Orthodox recognize their errors and humble themselves, they will never return to the Roman Catholic Church which is the Body of Christ. Or if God Almighty forces them to return also.