ok, jeesh, sorry, this ended up being a really long comment. i shared some legal and technical bits about some of the radios used and then some observations and things i found really interesting: Before all of that though, I just want to acknowledge that this was a really cool project to watch. I appreciate all the work, planning, and coordination and time that you all must have put into this. I was, of course, rooting for ham radio, but was surprised at some of the results! Thanks for doing all this, it was really cool, and i totally agree with your conclusion for group runs - use whatever most of the people in your group uses. There's also likely a different answer depending on what terrain you live in and what type of trips you typically do, day trips vs long distance trips, solo vs always with a group, etc. Anyway, very interesting video, thanks! legal/technical bits: Rugged Radios (same goes for Baofengs): (You mentioned some of this, but I already had all this typed up by the time thevideo got to that part, so i didn't go back and edit this down, lol, sorry) These rugged radios and "race radios" often come preprogrammed with LMR frequencies, like the one you were using, 151.265. The LMR service is often used by military and emergency services in addition commercial/industrial. I strongly encourage you to NOT transmit using any of your rugged radios anymore until you understand what each channel is and what frequencies they are using and that you have purchased any required FCC license for use. You could very well be interfering with local fire/police/military/forest service/etc, even if you can't hear them. You MUST be FCC licensed for any LMR frequency you want to use. Generally speaking, if you are not a licensed amateur, or you have not paid the FCC (via a coordinator) to reserve an LMR frequency, you cannot transmit on those radios. Rugged does a really good job of not letting people know about that specific piece of information. To get a LMR license, i believe you have to go through a frequency coordinator, like Forest Industries, which will cost you a few hundred bucks a year. Since you are a licensed amateur, you can use those radios just fine as long as you are transmitting within the amateur radio bands. Just pick up a $15 programming cable from amazon and program in a bunch of 2m/70cm ham frequencies/repeaters and you'll be good to go. Of note: the rugged/baofeng radios are also capable of transmitting on the FRS and GMRS frequencies, however, doing so is against the FCC regulations, as all FRS/GMRS activity must be done using a Part 95 certified device, which these radios are absolutely NOT. FRS/GMRS There are only 22 FRS/GMRS channels and I was confused when you mentioned using channel 27 (>22!!), so I did some research. Apparently some midland radios have these "extra" channels which are just another actual channel with the addition of a PL tone, and fixed to whatever the radios low power setting is. In the case of channel "27", it's actually FRS/GMRS channel 15, on low power, with a PL tone of 162.2. Interesting! That's a handy little feature! For anybody reading this wondering what the tone is for - it's like a privacy setting that lets your radio send out a sub-tone when you transmit, and then it also filters out any other incoming signal that isn't sending that same sub-audible tone. This allows you to use a shared and possibly busy channel while only hearing the people you want to hear, ignoring anybody else. Ok, now that that's out of the way, I thought this test was really interesting. I'm working on an upcoming set of videos about overland communications myself, talking about the differences, details, and capabilities of each of the radio systems you also used (ham, GMRS, CB) so this was really cool to see your "real world" field test. Some observations and thoughts: FRS: You were using .5 watt FRS. ONE. HALF. WATT. FRS, and you SO CLOSE to making full contact all the way to waypoint 8! that's awesome! HAM: The FRS frequencies are right near the 70cm amateur band, so I thought it would be interesting to see how the Yaesus HTs on 70cm (using both 0.5W and 5W) compare to the FRS 0.5W. I suspect even at 0.5W the Yaesu HTs would out perform the GXT HTs. It would be neat to see the test repeated comparing 2m to 70cm performance on the same route. BTW, HT = Handheld Transceiver (but yeah, most people say Handy Talky). REPEATERS: Both ham and GMRS have access to repeaters, FRS users are out of luck though, as they can't TX on the repeater input frequencies. In most areas, amateur radio repeaters are very common, but GMRS repeaters are not that common, at least in my state. CB: I think the likely reason CB worked so much better is because you had long externally mounted antennas high off the ground and above the vehicles. I suspect if you had similar external antenna setups for your ham radios, you would have had zero problem making contact, even with just 5W, at each waypoint (in comparison, CB is only 4W max of power.) You can then imagine if you had a 50W mobile ham radio with an external antenna, you would have blew the socks off of every other radio you tested. The CB performance was interesting to see, but i think it was an apples-to-oranges comparison to the various HTs HT "technique", for lack of a better word: I noticed a number of times during part 1 that there would be a struggle to copy using one of the various HTs, but that all of the sudden, the signal would come in loud and clear momentarily. This often happened because one or both of the operators would be holding the radio sideways or at an angle, and then by random chance they would straighten the radio up and hold it vertical again. When using HTs, the best technique is to hold the radios as vertical as possible, so you can match the polarity of the other end of the conversation. If radio A is being held vertical, but radio B is being held tilted, or worse, horizontally, or even worse yet, with the antenna /pointing/ directly at or away from radio A, then the polarity won't match, and the receiver's signal strength will fall, and in that worst case of pointing, the operator is pointing the antenna's null ("dead zone") right at the other radio. I would love to see the test results with all participants holding the HTs as vertical as possible to see how the results might change. and lastly: To address your comment in the video description about there not really being any consequence to illegal operation, the main consequence that I tell people whenever this comes up is this: When people are operating unlicensed using rugged radios, "race radios", baofengs, etc, they very well could be interfering with emergency services, military, or some local business. Sure, if you interfere with Big Joe's Towing down the road, maybe you disrupt their business for the day (nobody probably died, but it's still not a good thing), but in the case of community and emergency services (fire, police, air traffic, public schools, hospitals, etc), causing interference could obviously be a terrible thing. You don't have to be able to hear people using a frequency on your radio in order to cause interference on their radios. The bottom line is that if somebody has not been granted access by the FCC for whatever frequency they want to use i strongly suggest people to NOT use it.
Wow. Thanks for this! I am going to pin this so everyone sees it. I’ll keep an eye out for your radio videos! As you said, lots more ground to cover. Got to start somewhere!
This was a Great test, and it is a very elucidated commentary!! I just think that is important to notice that, CB is on the 11m band, HAMs HT is on VHF (2m band) and the FRS is UHF (70cm band). Cars, is like a big faraday cage, it can prevent electromagnetic waves to go through. But car have windows, it means holes on that cage and if a wave is smaller than the hole it can go out by the hole. It explains why the FRS surprises everyone and even with 0.5W was able to get a clean signal so far. Meanwhile a very expensive HAM radio 10x stronger wasn’t even able to get out of the car.
There's always some ham radio geek to tell you what you're doing wrong. Almost all Emergency services have gone to the digital P25 system. So most of that is moot. P25 system was born from 9/11 when the numerous agencies couldn't talk to each other. The great thing about emergency frequencies is, nobody monitors them because, it's an emergency channel and you had better stay off of it. Nonsense. If I hadn't been listening, people would have been dead, on more then one occasion. Once I was working a major incident, and we were using emergency frequencies, when one of the personnel said, we shouldn't be on this channel, it's for emergencies. What? Do you see how you brainwash people that they won't use these channels even when that's exactly what they should be doing? The problem with radio geeks is, they know everything about radios but not how to use them in the real world. Too focused on rules and technical specs. I was on a SAR ops. We had ARES running comms. The search manager tells the RTO I need to talk to this group. The RTO asks, what frequency? What? You're the radio operator, you tell me. The search manager was not happy. In short, 4 watts is not traveling very far. The chances of you interfering with anything is extremely unlikely. The truth is, you'd need help and nobody would hear you. That's more realistic. Infact you probably would only be static. You can always check online for whatever freq you want to check if it's allocated to something specific. Remember, they need to have those freqs registered for private use. Oh, and I've been using radios since the 70s. Portable, mobile, base. I have no idea who started this HT nonsense. You aren't on these radios being malicious jackasses 24 hours a day. If you hadn't made the video, nobody would even know that you were using any radios. Have fun off roading and don't worry about the nervous nellys. You did an excellent real world test.
Brien Wankel did a good job of explaining the legalities of the radios. I live in the Tucson AZ area with similar mountainous terrain. I'm also a licensed Ham radio operator. In my Jeep I have a CB with an external antenna, a 50 watt Ham radio with external antenna and a GMRS 5 watt handheld (yes I have a license for that too.) I've done a lot of experimenting such as you have just done. Your FRS radio is UHF (462 MHz), the Rugged Radio was transmitting on VHF (151 MHz business band) and you were also using VHF (146 MHZ ) on your Ham radio. Here's what I have found. In hilly/mountainous terrain UHF always outperformed VHF. Your FRS radio is transmitting on UHF frequencies, GMRS (which is also UHF) would be even better because of the added power. The only time I find VHF outperforming UHF is wide open desert with nothing in the way. Try transmitting with your Ham radio on the UHF (70cm) band and I think you will find that it will be the hands down winner. VHF seems to be too sensitive as you found out to being near or inside vehicles. The reason your CB worked well was totally due to the large outside antenna.
I am a licensed ham, and also use a CB. I've found that using SSB on 11m with a SS 102" whip is excellent for simplex. I use a Uniden 980SSB. I don't care for AM. The 102" whip is virtually indestructible, and works best mounted to a steel bumper, not the tire carrier.
I'm an Extra Class licensed ham. I think you did a good job on what you were trying to do with what you had. But Apple's to Apple's comparison, ham beats CB hands down. If you were using a mobile 2m 50w radio, with a decent external antenna, it would have easily out performed "legal" CB. I do like how you talked about cost. You can buy mobile CB radios at garage sales and flea markets all day long really cheaply. So that is a huge benefit for people. I also agree with, use what is in your area. If most off roaders use CB, then that's your best choice. I started a series of videos for "SHTF COMMS" and stumbled upon your video when looking for ideas for my range testing. You can't make everyone happy with any type of comms video, especially the ham community, so on behalf of some of the licensed ham jerks in your comments, I apologize for them. You did earn a new subscriber out of me. I appreciate the effort it took to make the 2 vids on comms 👍 thank you.
Excellent reply TTTMF. I am a Ham also and my start was in the off road Jeeping world. Have to agree that the Ham mobile radio are the best way to go, but a good HT is great around camp or off on hikes.
I agree, apples to apples HAM radio is truly the best. However the problem I have encountered as a licensed amateur radio operator in the off road community is that there are very few other licensed operators. Therefore, I still encounter the problem of not being able to communicate. This is where CB becomes the best asset that allows for everyone to communicate. CB is also more than sufficient because the most common times communications are most used is during the convoy en route to the trail, or while everyone is in line on the trail in close proximity. 73!
@@Tworescue01 I definitely can't knock CB, GMRS, FRS, or MURS. Using whatever is the most common, or whatever your group has at hand is definitely the way to go 👍
GMRS requires a license to use. And as the judge said... ignorance of the law is not an excuse. Technically all radios require a license, it that with some radios the license is "granted" to the device (type rated), such is the case with FRS and CB. BTW GMRS license does not require a test and only requires you apply and pay the fee. It is $70.00 valid for 10 years and extends to anyone in your immediate family.
I enjoyed watching the video, and you did a great job of identifying the myths behind the rugged radios. Only one point that I would say you overlooked. The biggest drawback to using CB is that when you are up on the mountains, you often get lots of skip from illegal high-powered stations. Much of it is very annoying, and also is not rated for family use. You can decrease it a bit by turning up the squelch, but then you will not have the same range capability as with the squelch open, Still, the point that CB is the best because it is the most commonly installed in vehicles for offroad is very valid. I love to use Ham radios for long trips, but often the other drivers don't have them, and that makes them definately limited. Again, great test! N7GEM
My personal experience and advice would be this. Get your GMRS radios license, its $70 and it covers everyone in your immediate family for 10 years. The midland GMRS radios are perfect for outings like this. The GMRS license allows you to use hand held radios mobile radios base radios and repeaters. The midland MXT radios are small enough and easy enough for anyone to use and mount into the vehicles. You will never have to worry about frequencys because it's all channels. Also Midland has really good antenna options.
Pretty much any radio will do a lot better when you use an antenna outside the vehicle. A simple mag mount can be plugged into most of those radios and your signal will improve a huge amount.
I'm a longtime (43 yrs) and enthusiastic ham, and I actually agree with your conclusion about CB being the best for this application. You want to be using what everyone else in your group is using. I backpack sometimes with friends, and if we take radios at all, we take FRS handheld radios (usually Motorola Talkabouts). If you want incrementally better functionality, an SSB CB radio would communicate much better under weak signal conditions than an AM CB radio (what most of them are). Also, a full 108" whip would work better than a shortened antenna. If some of your 4WD friends are also radio amateurs, you could consider installing 2 meter-only VHF rigs with external antennas. They are only about $150 and would work well, but they do require the amateur radio license. Look at the Kenwood TM-281A, Yaesu FT-2980R or Icom IC-2300H. Honestly, I don't think the digital voice modes would do anything for you; just simple old-fashioned FM voice would be effective enough. If you got more seriously into amateur radio, upgrading to General and using 75 meter SSB would work really well, but that would get more spendy. 73 Scott W5ESE
Excellent, timely information, as I have been trying to decide on what to purchase. Baofengs and rugged radios were high on my list, now not so much. Might just stick to my already installed CB.
As with a few of the others, I wrote a rambling comment and then deleted it all to say this... Thank you for the great and balanced video. The comparisons were authentic, although not apples-to-apples. If you ask a true amateur radio operator which radio is best, they'll reply with "what will you be using it for?" Radio communications is not a "one-size-fits-all" situation. And that's where the hobby part of amateur radio shines. - KJ4VPJ
I liked your video. I have all three in my truck for use on the trail or trips. The HAM radio was great when we went up to Tuktoyaktuk and got separated, it had a good 25 miles range by the markers. A lot of my friends have CB so I still have one and now I have a MXT275, just wish it had more power. What I dislike about the GMRS is as you into towns, people are using them for business, but I personally believe that the HAM & GMRS are clearer and easier to hear and understand.
It should be noted that there are vast differences between 27 MHz, 144 MHz, and 440 MHz. Licensed hams find out quickly that their 440 MHz and below handhelds do not work well inside of concrete structures. Switching to 1.2 GHz, however, yields better results as at this frequency the signal can bounce around inside of buildings and find an egress. Likewise, an external 1.2 GHz unit can find multiple ways to enter and bounce around the building. Not exactly great, but it does work. The 144 MHz handheld will had a tremendous disadvantage from inside of a vehicle as opposed to GMRS/FRS/440 MHz amateur transceivers. Had you utilized similar units (all UHF), you would have found similar results between the different units. As to 27 MHz CB, 10 or 12 meter amateur units will supply similar results - assuming you do not use high power nor FM. With FM you may be able to communicate through 10 meter repeaters and find you can talk to Australia as easily as 1 mile away. That said, FRS will probably give you excellent results with a minimum of expenditure. Radios do exist that can use voice with signal levels well *below* the ambient noise levels. They are entirely digital signals. Whether or not you would be able to buy one, you likely would not wish to pay the price for it LOL.
Don't know much about overlanding so this may not be practical but small repeaters can be installed in vehicles, a small 5 watt package installed midway in the pack might be something to think about if everyone is licensed in either amateur or GMRS. More hoops to jump through on the amateur side of things, though crossband repeat doesn't require coordination. It can be an expensive proposition but may be worth it if it provides the coverage you want. Good videos, thanks for the time & work that went in to their production.
For C.B. radio, I've found that if you get a 102" whip antenna and mount it properly (no spring at the base) you get a nearly perfect 1:1 swr match without any tuning. I prefer a fiberglass whip for highway use (I can't seem to find those anymore). My stainless steel 102" whip had to be "snubbed with a piece of paracord about 2 to 2-1/2 feet from the base, because at highway speed my previous one whipped around until it finally snapped off at the base.
I may have missed it, but did you note the 2018 FRS changes? They all FRS radios to transmit on most of the now shared FRS/GMRS channels at up to 2 watts without a license. That makes license free FRS units far more useful.
Moving this comment from the first video to help others who skip to this video. Thanks for understanding. Without watching the video, I can tell you which one should work better based on the presented equipment. First, lets talk frequency. Gmrs(FRS is same frequency but limited to .5 watts no matter what power setting the radio is on) is ultra high frequency or UHF 462.000mhz, HAM radio is very high frequency or VHF 146.000mhz and CB is high frequency or HF 27.000mhz. Now, UHF and VHF are line of sight only radios, meaning both radios have to have a clear line of sight in order to work properly. We'll talk about why this isn't hard and fast in a minute. CB is on the upper band of the HF spectrum and therefore it has some HF properties. However, the 27mhz band is high enough in frequency and regulated to such a low power, that it's basically a line of sight radio. All this being said. if you had identical radios with properly matched antennas of roughly the same performance, direct line of sight cb would get the farthest distance, followed by the VHF HAM, followed by the UHF GMRS. Just as a rough rule of thumb and under ideal conditions, at 5 watts (the maximum allowed on gmrs and CB) the cb will gain about 30 percent more rang then the VHF, and the VHF will gain about 30 percent more range then the UHF. In simply terms, the higher the frequency, the faster it dissipates. Now, remember how I said CB has some HF properties? This is how CB gains it's extra distance over VHF and UHF (for our purposes). At two meters of height(a person standing up with a radio to thier ear) the max rang that could be expected from a line of sight radio is about 6 miles across a "flat" plain due to the curvature of the earth. Now, due to the chemical makeup of the atmosphere, the air acts like a prism and the lower frequency of the CB band actually gets bent back towards the earth very slightly over distance. Therefore, electically the Earth appears flatter to the CB band and it gains a bit of distance. Furthermore, the 27mhz band is better about bending around and over objects due to it 33ft wavelength, vs the 6ft wave of the 146mhz. This is why you don't have to have a completely clear line of sight with radios. The radio waves will bend, go over, reflect or go through certain objects. Now, here is why you experienced the results you did. First, I'll bet the cb had a vehicle mounted antenna on the outside of the vehicle. This is a clear advantage over the handheld radios because of surface area and height above ground. Now, even with a vehicle mounted antenna, the VHF and UHF frequencies wouldn't be able to overcome thier technical limitations. But the UHF and VHF would gain significant additional coverage due to the unobstructed view and additional height. All this being said, the reason the UHF works inside of the vehicle is because the higher frequency is able to pass through the vehicle body, while VHF is being reflected off the metal surface and back into the cab. No surprise. Some signal is able to escape out the vehicles windows, however communication would be limited to line of sight out of the window. The easiest solution to gain maximum range on VHF and UHF is to run a roof mounted external antenna. Remember, FRS cannot use external antennas, which gives a clear advantage to the 146mhz HAM. By knowing the properties of each band and what equipment has what effect, you can choose what equipment will serve you best in the intended role. For example, VHF has a clear advantage over UHF over a open field, but is pretty useless inside a large industrial building. At least compared to UHF. CB is pretty much usless in a large skyscraper while UHF might cover multiple floors with ease. Where VHF excels over CB is transmission clarity, the ability to use digital modes, higher power (raises your signal above the noise floor of the surrounding area) and repeaters. With repeaters, it's not uncommon to be able to communicate 40-50 miles on a handheld. 40-50 miles is not going to happen on CB unless it's mountain top to mountain top. Anyway, great video and hope this helps.
Thanks for the comment man! I think you’ve illustrated why i say CB is the best trail coms for most people. Most of us just aren’t able to dig that deep into the hobby of amateur radio for it to be useful. And the deeper you go, the more and more limited the pool Of people to talk to gets. On our last trail day we had 15 vehicles and only 3 hams. So we used it for lead and sweep and CB for everyone else.
@@AllTerrainFamily Honestly I love CB. I'm also licensed for the amateur bands. CB is more available to people and it does practically everything most overlanders need. Much past line of sight, equipment and operation gets very complicated very fast. And expensive. But for most people, CB and a VHF handheld will do 90% of everything they will ever need. Even the military uses VHF and UHF for inter squad communications. Everything boils down to "what do you want to do" also, nobody said you can't have multiple radios on board. Now, let me throw out a situation. Let's say you and some friends all travel to some recreation site for a weekend of camping and overlanding. Let's also assuming that cell phone coverage might be non existent. Let's say you want to be able to communicate between vehicles and your base camp in a valley 5-8 miles away. It wouldn't be a unheard of practice to use CB between each vehicle and a portable HAM set to communicate between your vehicle and base camp. The reason one would do this, is to facilitate rescues or request parts(or order pizza and beer) and such in a poor cell coverage area. Some states have very good VHF coverage via repeaters for park ranger and or general public use. Some people or clubs even put up private repeaters for everyone to use. So it's a good practice to find out what repeaters are in the area you will be in. Also, as strange as it might sound. It's quite possible that you could hit a repeater 40 miles away on another mountain, but not your personal vehicle 8 miles away. But it's also possible to hit a repeater 40 miles away and bounce your signal back down to your base camp. Remember, the international space station has a 146.000 MHz repeater on it. 146mhz will travel hundreds of miles with enough power and a clear line of sight. Even with 5watts it's completely possible to hit a repeater 40 miles away; with a good antenna. Height is king with VHF and UHF. Which brings up another topic. Antennas. In a emergency, your vehicle might be stuck in a dead zone. However, taking a handheld around a corner or up a hill might be enough to hit either your Basecamp or a repeater that you and you base camp can hit. I have done this a few times. Again height is king. Two options over the supplied antenna might make unthinkable comms possible. One is the slim Jim, great distance over a flat plain and, the second is a directional antenna such as a yagi or beam( looks a lot like a tv antenna). Directional antenna focus more of the power in a given direction, hence the name "beam", like a laser beam. A beam antenna is great for vertical transmission such as up and down a mountain. Now, If my math is correct, a 6db gain antenna makes a 5 watt handheld radiate like a 20 watt radio. Anyway, I'm getting deep in the weeds here. but suffice to say, CB is great for simplicity and range for $$. However, HAM radios can still offer some interesting advantages for those who are willing to get thier hands dirty. I'll leave off with this. Pickup a slimjim antenna or yagi and get a roof top antenna for your rig and run both. You already have the expensive parts. If I had to give advice to a new person with no equipment, I'd say first find out what is the most popular in your area. Southern California is primarily race radios (illegal but everyone does it) otherwise, go with a cb radio and the best antenna I could afford. Wilson makes the best cb antennas when height is a issue. If you want the very best in transmission, get a 102" stainless steel whip with a 6" spring and 18ft(important for resonance) high-quality coax cable. This makes a 108" antenna which is a quarter wave and perfect resonance on the CB band. Looks really cool too. 😁 I routinely talk 6-7 miles with my setup in moderate hills. Yes, I hit every low hanging tree and drive through awning. But I'm more concerned with performance then hitting the occasional tree. You can also pull the whip down to the bumper and hook it with a bungee when not in use. To each his own. Just remember, whatever you go with, it needs to be ABOVE THE CAB for maximum effectiveness. Best regards.
Very good explanation. Every time I say CB is actually better (watt for watt for distance) for a group off-roading together somebody invariably says something like 'You don't know what you're talking about everybody knows ham radios can go around the world'.
Point of correction for the person that said SSB CB is low power, no it is usually higher power around 12 watts set by the manufacture, before any type of tuning being done. The AM band of that radio is usually 4 watts!
I really liked this Video. Honestly, I’d prefer to go into the back country with a good quality CB setup and a cheap DMR mobile radio capable of Analog as well. The CB is great to fall back on or chat on. With the DMR unit, having repeater access and analog repeater access provides a huge asset in an emergency or for high priority message traffic. Plus the APRS is ideal as well. I’d love a nice 40w DMR mobile radio. Again great video! Really well done 👍
Your comment on the Rugged Radios frequency of 151.265 suggests that they have programmed frequencies where you would not want to be near (for transmitting) as this is in a sub band for emergency services. For example, in our area 151.250 is a major ambulance frequency and 151.280 is the local Sheriff's Dept. The Part 90 Commercial Licenses can be very expensive because if you want a specific frequency, you typically have to go through a coordinator which costs hundreds of dollars in addition to the actual FCC license itself. There are some shared frequencies known as itinerants that could be licensed without coordination, but you still have to get the FCC license for your group. You would normally only be communicating with other stations in your group if you get a specific frequency. You could license all the expected stations in your group with the one license as long as the equipment meets the current Part 90 certification. www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/industrial-business. My thinking is that either CB be used for mobiles, or GMRS mobiles plus either GMRS and/or FRS handhelds which work better than CB handhelds and their form factor is more convenient too. That way unlicensed FRS individuals can generally communicate with the GMRS licensees. The changes in 2017 now allow inter-operation between FRS and GMRS for the most part. The one exception is that the 467 MHz interstitial channels 8-14 only allow the 0.5 watt ERP (Effective Radiated Power) for all stations so only GMRS handhelds can practically use these channels. The 462 MHz interstitial channels 1-7, allow 2 watts ERP for FRS, and 5 watts ERP for GMRS. The main 462 MHz channels 15 - 22, allow FRS the same 2 watts ERP, but allow GMRS the full 50 watts output watts. And GMRS can use detachable and gain antennas while FRS can only use the integral built-in antenna. There are only the 22 channels, plus the 8 GMRS repeater 467 MHz inputs. The ones that some manufacturers claim above channel 22 are just the same channels with the addition of a pre-programmed "privacy" tone. It just means that you won't hear other stations, but if they are not using a tone, they will hear you, if they are in range.
Thanks for the detail Rick. One thing I was going to mention (that you touch on) is that although the Rugged Radios / Baofengs / other Ham radios can often tune commercial, GMRS, FRS or Ham bands they are FCC type approved and limited legally to transmit on certain bands by said type approval. This rapidly can get into the weeds for people not into Ham as a hobby. I suggest that people new to radio and interested in something beyond big name channel-locked commercial CB/FRS/GMRS offerings (like Uniden, Motorola, etc.) reach out to the Ham community before purchasing equipment for free assistance in selecting and buying the right gear and using it in a legal way. Reno has a great ham club (SNARS snars.org/home/) and there are others all around the area. In my limited time as a Ham I've found people helpful and interested in mentoring new users who demonstrate respect and a desire to do it right.
Great work on this. I know it took a lot of time. I just got my HAM license and had assumed they would be better. My brother and I bought BaoFeng's just as an entry point. They are so cheap we could just use them as spotting radios I guess. (Though, after watching this, I'm not sure it was worth the effort it took to get our licenses)
Dont forget you can use an HT with a magnet mount antenna on your roof or hood and your results will be much better! Also, as he mentioned in the video, they weren't using repeaters. Program in some repeaters and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I can hear a repeater ~17 miles from my house crystal clear with an HT. (Just got my license, so I haven't tried TX yet.) It's relatively flat terrain, but it still shows that repeaters greatly extended your range at which you can communicate.
Hello just wondering when you would be re-running this experiment, with the correctly tuned/swr CB antennas that you mentioned, as looking forward to that video. Regards Daz
I’m not a ham radio guy but I have used cb and little handheld midlands. Both work fine. Every time I have broken down needed help the cell phone is the way we called for help. Don’t forget off road racers used to start a fire and the smoke would signal for help. Cb is cheaper than even the little handheld radios. Used cb $5 at a yard sale. Wilson little will $40. Set the swr ready to go.
One often overlooked type of radio is the MURS. They too don't require a license and are recently making a comeback as radio manufacturers are supplying new and FCC type accepted portables again. I would like to use my MURS radios while out on the trail but many (most) people have never heard of it and I get the deer-in-the-headlights look when I mention it.
Good for you !!!! I have seen only one other person mention MURS. A big advantage to MURS, besides being License Free, is that you can legally use an external antenna. There are 5 frequencies in the 151 to 154 MHz region and a full quarter wave antenna is only about 17 inches long.
Again you did another good video. You said at the end that if you missed anything to let you know. I want you to know some grms mobiles and handhelds also have repeater capabilities and some have same output as ham mobiles and handhelds. Ham radios on simplex are no better than GMRS radios on simplex so as I said in my last comment on your other video it’s all about antenna not always about power. I’ve talked to other states on a 4 watt cb but I had an excellent antenna and properly tuned. So good job and tell your patrons that if they don’t want to take ham exam go for GMRS license no test required and covers whole family for 10 years. I am a ham radio operator and a GMRS operator both licensed and I have also been and still are a cb operator since the 1960’s before the cb craze of the 70’s. 73’s keep up the good work.
Most repeaters are single stations so not all repeaters in the area will be triggered by your call. With that said, more and more repeaters are being 'chained' so that will in fact happen. For example, you can talk around most of Michigan right now by using a repeater that is chained. Each repeater has it's own frequency and station id, but they are chained.
i would be very interested to see how you would do with a cobra 29 ltd with a 4ft. fire stick tuned.. as many of the vehicles that these would be going in are highly altered from stock.. you could drop a modest amount and see just what you can really do with a swing kit and a kicker.. not trying to say any one is better but if you wanted apples to apples you could set a solid price point .. say 250 i think alot of people would be surprised at how far you can reach .. from the top of a hill looking out over the mesas i wouldn't be surprised to here you got 40 50 miles easy
if you move to like Alabama or Texas, I think you have to use 11 meters at 10 thousand watts through an eleven element beam on a couple hundred foot tower hidden on a corner of your ranch.
Just a side note. Digital modes such as DMR have better audio, but range suffers due to the radio needing every bit of data to reconstruct the audio. In plain English, your radio won't even turn on if it's not in reliable range and you won't know someone is trying to call you. Now, to be confusing, APRS is a digital modes over FM or conventional analog. Digital modes over analog gain range because it only sends tones like Morse code and it doesn't have to distinguish between "this and that". It's either tone A, or tone B. Now, if you want to do something really cool. You can run a Y splitter from your baufang into your phone and run digital modes from a app such as FLdigi or APRS Droid. Baufang actually makes a cable for the uv5r called the aprs cable. Anyway, using your phone (or laptop) you can send GPS coordinates, text messages, and even pictures via radios instead of cell service. This is a effective way to communicate information when cell service is unavailable and or conventional voice is spotty.
@@AllTerrainFamily do you mean on the radio, or about this subject? We Amateur radio geeks(I probably don't qualify for that title) are few and far between these days. 😥
@@AllTerrainFamily Yes, this is a multifaceted issue. Primary issue is the equipment, space, and technical knowledge is considerably more involved then a simple VHF or radio. Also with the Advent of cell phones, it's not as necessary as it was even twenty years ago. It is still possible to get into regular conversations with people. Just key up the Mike and call CQ. Most have thier radios on, but don't activity try to get contacts. It's kind of cultural thing these days. People just keep to themselves. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a conversation going between 15-20 people by just saying something random on the radio. A lot of people also fall into certain groups and aren't really into talking outside of that group. Contester and racers are kinda like that. Surprisingly, many of the new HAM are closet preppers. Meaning they only want the equipment and license so then can communicate amongst themselves and they're not really into the hobby aspect. A lot of factors make up the general community these days. It's not like the old.
I had a layfeette back in the day 23 channel. Many times I talk recieve better then most and many times told I come in good but no carrier. Also a power mike will make a bug difference. Meaning reguardless which radio best results come with power mike.
Great summary and really nice job on the whole test / production! I've been checking out DMR on my HT and am currently debating making my Mobile rig selection with it in mind. There is no one Mobile radio that does everything I want unfortunately and the Jeep has limited room... :p
both part 1 and 2 were excellent and very informative. One thing that might have helped with the cb is to keep the door closed. Having the door open can destroy a good swr.
you guys out their let me tell you THE MIDLAND MXT275 GMRS RADIO IS THE BEST DAMN RADIO I HAVE EVER PURCHASED YOU ARE CRAZY IF YOU DO NOT BUY THIS OUTSTANDING PRODUCT. MY HAT'S OFF TO MIDLAND FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS BEAUTIFUL PRODUCT I AM TICKLED PINK!
Question about the rugged radio. They sell a moto version with a nice in helmet and handle bar PTT harness. If one person has the tech license for ham, and is riding with their family members, are you within compliance with the FCC. Or does immediate family also need a license?
A 75watt yaesu ft2900 is the way to go 2 meters only radio is all you need. Always use a magnetic mount antenna when in a vehicle and you will have no issues with communications. 2 meters also has tons of local repeaters if simplex ever fails. Or get a yaesu ft60r dual band radio with an external shoulder speaker mike. Telescoping antennas work best for the ft60 Olof you don’t want to use a magnet mount.
Great comparison and I love how you put it all together. Would you consider simulating one regular and one emergency scenario? I think ham a DMR radio with APRS and GPS would earn it's keep once the sun goes down. DMR would produce much clearer audio and a mobile station could easily put out 100 watts.
Here in Holland is CB legal with 4 watt on the antenna. But handheld or an antennea on the car makes great difference. Anyway, i have had both and i prefer hamradio, because the radio's are better and have more legal power. 4 watts on 11 meters or 65 watts on 2 meters or 70 cm. About 4 km on cb instead more than 30 km on 2 meter and about 23 km on 70 cm. The same road and no repeaters. Modulation was FM. in ssb it will be more. I prefer ham-radio, cb is for fun and without a licence good enough for playing arround.
Nice test, well done. Perhaps it would also be interesting to test another mobile antenna, for example a Sirio turbo 5000 or Sirtel Santiago 1200 or similar. These antennas will dramatically increase your range.
One thing that I was hoping to find was the distances at the various checkpoints. Did you mention that earlier? If not could you list the distances between stations at the various checkpoints. Thanks much.
It seems that with your results you would want one HAM in the group with a mobile unit for emergencies, everyone has a CB channel they could communicate with everyone at once, an FRS radio to talk to other vehicles without overwhelming everyone else with chatter, so each subgroup could be on different FRS channels. Great test! 73 de KD4NZR
you can buy a new, name brand, 2 meter, 50+ watt mobile ham radio for about $150. So while it's still more money than an AM only CB radio it's not overly pricey. Installation is the same as installing a CB. I'd install one of those and a CB and have the best of both worlds. The power of a mobile ham and the number of users of a CB. As a side note, if you buy one of those expensive $350 duel band mobile ham radios, you can use it as a cross band repeater for other people using HTs, effectively extending the range of the HT's by having your own mobile repeater in the middle of the group.
I wish to question something that you said about CB's. Technically you do need a license for CB, but the FCC will not come after you unless you are really obnoxious. I read about someone who was fined and lost his equipment on CB just a week ago. I do not know what he did as it takes a lot to get the FCC to go after someone on CB, but this person did screw up enough to get fined and loss of equipment. I think the fine now days is around $10,000.00 per incident so he has a big bill to pay. Side band on CB is not any harder to set up than the AM or normal set up. It does give you more talking power and also a higher PEP power so it would have been an advantage in this situation. Two meter radios can have up to 80 watts in a stock mobile mount which would have also given it a big advantage over the maximum of 5 watts on a handheld. Also FM is a lot more picky about terrain and placement than AM so that is also a factor you should have taken into account. All said and done this was a good test and comparison for the different radio types that people are using on trails now-days. Thank you for taking the time to do this and let people know about the options and their limitations.
Good info - one piece is missing. Ham requires a license AND requires that you use your call sign on the air to identify yourself. Usually at the end of each transmission. Failure to identify is illegal. I suspect GRMS is the same. I didn't hear a single call sign ID in your video.
You should make it clear, that you need to have a GMRS license to use GMRS radio and a separate Ham radio license for Ham radio If you are going to use both ham and GMRS radios you will need both licenses If the radio antenna is removable from radio then you definitely need a license to operate it according to the new FCC regulations as of September 2019
Can you make another video using the Boefang UV!5R?? Think radio kind of does it all except CB. Would be a great entry radio for newcomers to the 4x4 Community.
Very nicely done; watched both part 1 & 2. I thought your tests were well done, which is typically what I would be using these comm devices for. I also agree with you; NOT interested in the HAM radio route. Just want to communication (listen) to Jeep to Jeep and my hikers at certain check points. This has been quite helpful.
A Baofeng can ONLY be used legally on the amateur bands, and only then with at least a technician class license. The reason is that a commercial radio (for which a no test license is required) cannot be used on just any frequency by simply dialing it up in VFO mode. It can only operate on the frequencies assigned by the FCC when the commercial license is granted. The Baofeng (or any amateur radio) cannot be used legally for FRS (because they have a removable antennas) or for GMRS (because the Baofeng can operate at any frequency selected by the VFO). The Rugged Radio (sometimes called race radios) is NOT legal for any commercial frequency if it can be adjusted by the user to any frequency. There is the whole issue of type acceptance. It's also important to point out that amateur radios cannot be used on amateur frequencies if the operator is not licensed. For off-roading there are really only two choices: (1) CB, or (2) amateur radio. In both cases a mobile rig affixed to the vehicle with an outside antenna will provide the most range. The amateur radio will outperform the CB by a huge factor (but is only useful if the members of the group are licensed). Getting an amateur radio (ham) license is a bit more challenging because of the test, but it will pay off in the long run. If you don't want to take a test, then the only legal way to get on the air is CB.
VHF and UHF frequencies are line of sight. There is one form of atmospheric states called " ducting" and "Meteoroid" trail propagation that do permit greater distances, HOWEVER they are not exactly common place. And one more thing, Amateur Radio repeaters are NOT public propety. The owners of said amateur repeaters can forbid a person or group from their repeater through several methods aka closed repeaters and it is entirely legal.
I am glad I waited to watch the second video before commenting. It's great to see this kind of video and trying to make things all fair and straight - but I don't think that was accomplished. If the intent was to be in the car then you should have been in the car the whole time. Sometimes you were at the side the rear the front and with different radios the FRS and Rugged seemed to be in the rear mostly and ham next to the antenna suck of a car. I think the ham would have performed better than the CB in similar set up conditions. I.E. sitting in the car with an antenna outside the car. There is a small inexpensive window mount that would achieve this mission without the purchase of a full mobile rig. For both the CB and the HAM - have you considered BONDING all of the metal parts of the vehicle together to create a fabulous ground plan. The CB would preform even better if the car body were better grounded. I also want to thank you for calling out the RUGGED RADIOS for their true identity - too many videos out there saying oh just buy them you don't need a license. I know Sorry for being picky - I think this video has all the right things to say - and I do thing your conclusions were correct. And don't forget your callsign on the ham...
I have no experience with a satellite phone. But a sat phone is expensive, requires no license and can connect anywhere on the planet even if no one is with you. But it’s not a push-to-talk group communication device like a radio.
CB are best! Wait what??? lol Cool videos thanks for sharing, My thoughts are that that CB's are the SIMPLEST and most COST EFFECTIVE to get into and that's about it.. When it comes to "BEST" you can not say that the one radio that can you out of jam or an emergent situation or allow emergency services to pinpoint your location when MILES away from any signal has to be the HAM radio. The reach of the Hams plus the built in APRS ( on some radios) are far superior to the CB. Now if you just going down the road, then go for it with a cb, but if you are out in the sticks and things go bad a ham radio is the way to go period. Also your antennas make a HUGE difference... The CB performed well simply because of that exterior antenna. Get a mobile HAM radio with exterior antenna and Compare apples to apples and see the difference... A 50 watt mobile ham radio attached to a an exterior antenna with 3/5 DB gain will destroy the CB.. Anyway good stuff brudda! Just sharing my thoughts and opinions!
You’re right, and I acknowledge as much. But the barrier to entry into amateur radio is higher than most of us care to climb. A lot of knowledge and work goes into learning to effectively use the equipment you’re proposing.
You would have probably better range if all used mobile hams in simplex mode but you would all have to be licensed operators. I used a FT-2800M in my old truck. With a 1/4 wave antenna for 2 meter is 15" long and looks much better than 100" cb antenna. I ran a legal 65 watts of power and could talk across the state. With WINLINK i used to talk to people in Japan and Australia all the time, you can even do phone calls (autopatch). Ham is leagues better than CB but if youre all not willing to study an afternoon to pass the exam cb is pretty good. I studied for 3 days and took my tech and general ham tests and passed no problem . Paid the $35 for GMRS too so im licensed for both now. Id never go back to CB. If you had an antenna mounted on your vehicle connected to the other HT radios you may have gotten better communication too. Tough call. Good video though.
2 meters fm is the way to go. The band is crystal clear unlike AM cb on 26 and 27mhz. I love ham antennas because they don’t require any tuning and work great as long as you don’t damage your coax.
you should do more test on the boafengs you can do frs,murs talk on them without license on boafengs and you can get naygoa NA-771 or Abbree 42.5 INCH there's alot mods for boafengs i do listen ham repeaters boafengs they do better on murs and frs boafengs are like 1970's cobra cb radio for frs.
You keep saying high mt. Come east and you will see real mts reguardless of altitude. From St.louis mississippi river to denver is 1 mile high. But to us in Midwest& east ..we see denver as flat and our radios also see that as flat. Test your radios in real mts like west virgina pennsylvania Newyork. Where you csnt talk around mts cause they are everywhere. So the signal must go up and down. That I think makes CB the best choice. Because it goes UP & DOWN
The difference is too massive to really even compare, while 40 channels between roughly 26.9 Mhz and 27.405 Mhz ( That used to be a ham band, given away by the FCC ) is OK, 4 watts on AM and 12 watts pep on SSB for citizens band is considered low power (QRP). The affects of solar conditions on the various HF and VHF bands mean, you are going to experience no regional communications to surrounding states or farther until solar affects improve on limited 11 meter CB band. Ham Radio offers CW, AM, FM, SSB, RTTY, SSTV, FSK, Satellite, High speed mesh data, Amateur TV, many digital modes on HF, Long wave communications with low power below 530 khz, 1500 watts pep (Peak envelope power ) on 160 meters 1.8-2 Mhz, 80/75 meters 3.5 to 4 Mhz, lower power 100 watts ERP on 10 channels near 5.13 mhz, 1500 watts pep from 7.0 to 7.3 Mhz, 200 watts PEP of Data & RTTY from 10.1 to 10.15 Mhz, 1500 watts pep from 14.0 to 14.35 Mhz ( One of the best bands for communications across U.S. and around the world in the day time and evenings, when solar conditions are good.) 18.068 Mhz to 18.168 Mhz, 21.0 to 21.45 Mhz, 24.89 mhz to 24.99 mhz, 28.0 mhz to 29.7 Mhz, 50.0 to 54 Mhz, 144.0 mhz to 148 mhz, 222 mhz - 225 mhz, 420 mhz to 450 mhz, 902 mhz to 928 mhz, 1240 mhz to 1300 mhz, 2300 mhz to 2310 mhz, 2390 to 2450 Mhz, 3300 to 3500, 5650 mhz to 5925 mhz, 10.0 ghz to 10.5 ghz, 24 ghz to 24.25 ghz, 47.0 ghz to 47.2 ghz, 76 ghz to 81 ghz, 122.25 ghz to 123.0 ghz, 134 ghz to 141 ghz, 241 ghz to 250 ghz, all above 275 ghz, but no pulse emissions, and the license to engineer & develop new emissions.
What kind of string? Paper or plastic cups? Internal strings or external? I bet you don’t even have a license for CUP radios! Why don’t you just leave this to the experts...
@@AllTerrainFamily my point being it used to be fun. Remember having those Star Trek walkie talkies that look like giant communicators. And they all ran on Channel 14 of the CB radio? At any rate it used to be fun. My fears it's going to be necessary soon
@@Anthonyhenryricci I agree. A lot of the Ham guys are really only into the tech of radios and don't really have much to talk about. If you listen the repeaters, at least in my area, it's just small talk about gardening, football and what doctor visits they have to go to and THE WEATHER. They know all about faraday cages, and nothing about communication. I just want to keep in contact with friends and family on the trail.
@@AllTerrainFamily of course. And I am thoroughly grateful for the work all of you put into the experiment, for lack of a better term. I know working out the audio had to be teatious. One other note, just as I began to consider ham radio licensing and the such, I found out that California shut down all repeaters. Legally! Some new statute. I fear it will become illegal nationwide. Check marfoogle news @RUclips
You leave a lot of stones unturned, the way you have been testing is not really suitable for the conditions Using HT inside the cab is a horrid idea when you can get a cheap mag mount antenna to SMA for the HT that would give you more DB gain and better signal instead of holding it into a cage of RF interference, plus not having a tuned CB is also a horrid idea to the point that you could damage the cb its self
You used unfair test conditions if the CB radio has an externally mounted antenna and the other radios don't. You can have at least the Amateur radio using an externally mounted antenna with the hand held, or have all hand held radio tests with rubber duck antennas.
FCC regulations spell out operator requirements. Midland or other manufactures are not responsible to tell purchaser what their legal requirements are!
@@AllTerrainFamily thank you . I keep reading that their is one. But no list of any name . I'm just looking into ham . We use cb off road and hunting. But like somthing better
Wrong CB antenna! 102 inch whip antenna makes a world of difference. A stock out of the box Cb is crap. I run a 102 inch whip with Galaxy 98VHP. I live in East TN mountains all a round. Swap you cobra 18 with a Styker 94HPC and you will see there is a big difference on performance. You want your SWR as close to 1.1 as possible with little reflection. How your antenna on back of Jeep behind the tire is a terrible place to be mounted. An antenna needs to be 80% above roof line to get any performance out of it. I’m going to make a video on the CB set up and best places to have antenna mounted. I have seen to many off road videos and CB antenna is in the wrong place.
That’s the problem. You have been transmitting on a frequency for use by the Department of Environmental Resources here in New Jersey. 151.265 is not a nationwide free frequency. Depending on where you go, someone is assigned this frequency. Who is selling these radio ? Don’t they have common sense. We live in a governmentally regulated society. If they want to just talk, get a GMRS license and a GMRS radio and use GMRS frequencies. That’s what is for !
Check out the owners manual for a GMRS radio. They list the channels, but don’t specify which is frs or gmrs. It’s very confusing even for those of us who care to learn.
That’s my point, they have no business selling these radios to the general public. The government has set aside frequencies for families to use. These people ignore them and just put in random frequencies. Thanks for the reply. When you have a chance would you review the BTech GMRS mobile and hand held units. They seem to be just what you are looking for. 50 watts from the mobile unit and 5 watts from the handi talkie.
You do not need an FCC license to use the gmrs higher power channels. You can run up to 40 watts of power on gmrs without a FCC license because the FCC considers a FCC license as following the rules of the FCC. Anything over 40 watts requires you to pay the FCC to obtain a license to use a radio over 40 watts, but no test taking is required. Sounds dumb but look it up. I'd like to see you guys do a comparison between the Midland Micro Mobile against otheres like it.
So much incorrect info. GMRS requires a license. Period. Doesn't matter if its 5 watts or 50 the legal power limit for GMRS. FRS may share frequencies but they're at 2 watts (0.5 watts on channels 8-14 GMRS id restricted to 0.5 watts on these channels as well) and have narrower bandwidth requirements.
If you needed a license you wouldn’t be able to buy the radios. Just like you can’t buy certain chemicals without an applicator license. The SEC doesn’t care stop acting like they do.
That’s not the case. They regulate usage not sales. The problem is that they don’t really make it clear when you but a radio that you need a license for some or all of it’s features. Also, the FCC not the SEC.
ok, jeesh, sorry, this ended up being a really long comment. i shared some legal and technical bits about some of the radios used and then some observations and things i found really interesting:
Before all of that though, I just want to acknowledge that this was a really cool project to watch. I appreciate all the work, planning, and coordination and time that you all must have put into this. I was, of course, rooting for ham radio, but was surprised at some of the results! Thanks for doing all this, it was really cool, and i totally agree with your conclusion for group runs - use whatever most of the people in your group uses. There's also likely a different answer depending on what terrain you live in and what type of trips you typically do, day trips vs long distance trips, solo vs always with a group, etc. Anyway, very interesting video, thanks!
legal/technical bits:
Rugged Radios (same goes for Baofengs):
(You mentioned some of this, but I already had all this typed up by the time thevideo got to that part, so i didn't go back and edit this down, lol, sorry) These rugged radios and "race radios" often come preprogrammed with LMR frequencies, like the one you were using, 151.265. The LMR service is often used by military and emergency services in addition commercial/industrial. I strongly encourage you to NOT transmit using any of your rugged radios anymore until you understand what each channel is and what frequencies they are using and that you have purchased any required FCC license for use. You could very well be interfering with local fire/police/military/forest service/etc, even if you can't hear them. You MUST be FCC licensed for any LMR frequency you want to use. Generally speaking, if you are not a licensed amateur, or you have not paid the FCC (via a coordinator) to reserve an LMR frequency, you cannot transmit on those radios. Rugged does a really good job of not letting people know about that specific piece of information.
To get a LMR license, i believe you have to go through a frequency coordinator, like Forest Industries, which will cost you a few hundred bucks a year. Since you are a licensed amateur, you can use those radios just fine as long as you are transmitting within the amateur radio bands. Just pick up a $15 programming cable from amazon and program in a bunch of 2m/70cm ham frequencies/repeaters and you'll be good to go. Of note: the rugged/baofeng radios are also capable of transmitting on the FRS and GMRS frequencies, however, doing so is against the FCC regulations, as all FRS/GMRS activity must be done using a Part 95 certified device, which these radios are absolutely NOT.
FRS/GMRS
There are only 22 FRS/GMRS channels and I was confused when you mentioned using channel 27 (>22!!), so I did some research. Apparently some midland radios have these "extra" channels which are just another actual channel with the addition of a PL tone, and fixed to whatever the radios low power setting is. In the case of channel "27", it's actually FRS/GMRS channel 15, on low power, with a PL tone of 162.2. Interesting! That's a handy little feature!
For anybody reading this wondering what the tone is for - it's like a privacy setting that lets your radio send out a sub-tone when you transmit, and then it also filters out any other incoming signal that isn't sending that same sub-audible tone. This allows you to use a shared and possibly busy channel while only hearing the people you want to hear, ignoring anybody else.
Ok, now that that's out of the way, I thought this test was really interesting. I'm working on an upcoming set of videos about overland communications myself, talking about the differences, details, and capabilities of each of the radio systems you also used (ham, GMRS, CB) so this was really cool to see your "real world" field test.
Some observations and thoughts:
FRS:
You were using .5 watt FRS. ONE. HALF. WATT. FRS, and you SO CLOSE to making full contact all the way to waypoint 8! that's awesome!
HAM:
The FRS frequencies are right near the 70cm amateur band, so I thought it would be interesting to see how the Yaesus HTs on 70cm (using both 0.5W and 5W) compare to the FRS 0.5W. I suspect even at 0.5W the Yaesu HTs would out perform the GXT HTs. It would be neat to see the test repeated comparing 2m to 70cm performance on the same route.
BTW, HT = Handheld Transceiver (but yeah, most people say Handy Talky).
REPEATERS:
Both ham and GMRS have access to repeaters, FRS users are out of luck though, as they can't TX on the repeater input frequencies. In most areas, amateur radio repeaters are very common, but GMRS repeaters are not that common, at least in my state.
CB:
I think the likely reason CB worked so much better is because you had long externally mounted antennas high off the ground and above the vehicles. I suspect if you had similar external antenna setups for your ham radios, you would have had zero problem making contact, even with just 5W, at each waypoint (in comparison, CB is only 4W max of power.) You can then imagine if you had a 50W mobile ham radio with an external antenna, you would have blew the socks off of every other radio you tested. The CB performance was interesting to see, but i think it was an apples-to-oranges comparison to the various HTs
HT "technique", for lack of a better word:
I noticed a number of times during part 1 that there would be a struggle to copy using one of the various HTs, but that all of the sudden, the signal would come in loud and clear momentarily. This often happened because one or both of the operators would be holding the radio sideways or at an angle, and then by random chance they would straighten the radio up and hold it vertical again. When using HTs, the best technique is to hold the radios as vertical as possible, so you can match the polarity of the other end of the conversation. If radio A is being held vertical, but radio B is being held tilted, or worse, horizontally, or even worse yet, with the antenna /pointing/ directly at or away from radio A, then the polarity won't match, and the receiver's signal strength will fall, and in that worst case of pointing, the operator is pointing the antenna's null ("dead zone") right at the other radio. I would love to see the test results with all participants holding the HTs as vertical as possible to see how the results might change.
and lastly:
To address your comment in the video description about there not really being any consequence to illegal operation, the main consequence that I tell people whenever this comes up is this: When people are operating unlicensed using rugged radios, "race radios", baofengs, etc, they very well could be interfering with emergency services, military, or some local business. Sure, if you interfere with Big Joe's Towing down the road, maybe you disrupt their business for the day (nobody probably died, but it's still not a good thing), but in the case of community and emergency services (fire, police, air traffic, public schools, hospitals, etc), causing interference could obviously be a terrible thing. You don't have to be able to hear people using a frequency on your radio in order to cause interference on their radios. The bottom line is that if somebody has not been granted access by the FCC for whatever frequency they want to use i strongly suggest people to NOT use it.
Wow. Thanks for this! I am going to pin this so everyone sees it. I’ll keep an eye out for your radio videos! As you said, lots more ground to cover. Got to start somewhere!
This was a Great test, and it is a very elucidated commentary!!
I just think that is important to notice that,
CB is on the 11m band, HAMs HT is on VHF (2m band) and the FRS is UHF (70cm band).
Cars, is like a big faraday cage, it can prevent electromagnetic waves to go through. But car have windows, it means holes on that cage and if a wave is smaller than the hole it can go out by the hole.
It explains why the FRS surprises everyone and even with 0.5W was able to get a clean signal so far. Meanwhile a very expensive HAM radio 10x stronger wasn’t even able to get out of the car.
Great info in addition to the testing. Thanks
There's always some ham radio geek to tell you what you're doing wrong. Almost all Emergency services have gone to the digital P25 system. So most of that is moot. P25 system was born from 9/11 when the numerous agencies couldn't talk to each other. The great thing about emergency frequencies is, nobody monitors them because, it's an emergency channel and you had better stay off of it. Nonsense. If I hadn't been listening, people would have been dead, on more then one occasion. Once I was working a major incident, and we were using emergency frequencies, when one of the personnel said, we shouldn't be on this channel, it's for emergencies. What? Do you see how you brainwash people that they won't use these channels even when that's exactly what they should be doing? The problem with radio geeks is, they know everything about radios but not how to use them in the real world. Too focused on rules and technical specs. I was on a SAR ops. We had ARES running comms. The search manager tells the RTO I need to talk to this group. The RTO asks, what frequency? What? You're the radio operator, you tell me. The search manager was not happy.
In short, 4 watts is not traveling very far. The chances of you interfering with anything is extremely unlikely. The truth is, you'd need help and nobody would hear you. That's more realistic. Infact you probably would only be static. You can always check online for whatever freq you want to check if it's allocated to something specific. Remember, they need to have those freqs registered for private use. Oh, and I've been using radios since the 70s. Portable, mobile, base. I have no idea who started this HT nonsense. You aren't on these radios being malicious jackasses 24 hours a day. If you hadn't made the video, nobody would even know that you were using any radios.
Have fun off roading and don't worry about the nervous nellys. You did an excellent real world test.
Brien Wankel did a good job of explaining the legalities of the radios. I live in the Tucson AZ area with similar mountainous terrain. I'm also a licensed Ham radio operator. In my Jeep I have a CB with an external antenna, a 50 watt Ham radio with external antenna and a GMRS 5 watt handheld (yes I have a license for that too.) I've done a lot of experimenting such as you have just done. Your FRS radio is UHF (462 MHz), the Rugged Radio was transmitting on VHF (151 MHz business band) and you were also using VHF (146 MHZ ) on your Ham radio. Here's what I have found. In hilly/mountainous terrain UHF always outperformed VHF. Your FRS radio is transmitting on UHF frequencies, GMRS (which is also UHF) would be even better because of the added power. The only time I find VHF outperforming UHF is wide open desert with nothing in the way. Try transmitting with your Ham radio on the UHF (70cm) band and I think you will find that it will be the hands down winner. VHF seems to be too sensitive as you found out to being near or inside vehicles. The reason your CB worked well was totally due to the large outside antenna.
I am a licensed ham, and also use a CB. I've found that using SSB on 11m with a SS 102" whip is excellent for simplex.
I use a Uniden 980SSB.
I don't care for AM.
The 102" whip is virtually indestructible, and works best mounted to a steel bumper, not the tire carrier.
I'm an Extra Class licensed ham. I think you did a good job on what you were trying to do with what you had. But Apple's to Apple's comparison, ham beats CB hands down. If you were using a mobile 2m 50w radio, with a decent external antenna, it would have easily out performed "legal" CB. I do like how you talked about cost. You can buy mobile CB radios at garage sales and flea markets all day long really cheaply. So that is a huge benefit for people. I also agree with, use what is in your area. If most off roaders use CB, then that's your best choice. I started a series of videos for "SHTF COMMS" and stumbled upon your video when looking for ideas for my range testing. You can't make everyone happy with any type of comms video, especially the ham community, so on behalf of some of the licensed ham jerks in your comments, I apologize for them. You did earn a new subscriber out of me. I appreciate the effort it took to make the 2 vids on comms 👍 thank you.
Excellent reply TTTMF.
I am a Ham also and my start was in the off road Jeeping world. Have to agree that the Ham mobile radio are the best way to go, but a good HT is great around camp or off on hikes.
I agree, apples to apples HAM radio is truly the best. However the problem I have encountered as a licensed amateur radio operator in the off road community is that there are very few other licensed operators. Therefore, I still encounter the problem of not being able to communicate. This is where CB becomes the best asset that allows for everyone to communicate. CB is also more than sufficient because the most common times communications are most used is during the convoy en route to the trail, or while everyone is in line on the trail in close proximity.
73!
@@Tworescue01 I definitely can't knock CB, GMRS, FRS, or MURS. Using whatever is the most common, or whatever your group has at hand is definitely the way to go 👍
50w Vs. 4w? It better outperform or you need to learn how to do installations correctly 🤣
GMRS requires a license to use. And as the judge said... ignorance of the law is not an excuse. Technically all radios require a license, it that with some radios the license is "granted" to the device (type rated), such is the case with FRS and CB. BTW GMRS license does not require a test and only requires you apply and pay the fee. It is $70.00 valid for 10 years and extends to anyone in your immediate family.
I enjoyed watching the video, and you did a great job of identifying the myths behind the rugged radios. Only one point that I would say you overlooked. The biggest drawback to using CB is that when you are up on the mountains, you often get lots of skip from illegal high-powered stations. Much of it is very annoying, and also is not rated for family use. You can decrease it a bit by turning up the squelch, but then you will not have the same range capability as with the squelch open, Still, the point that CB is the best because it is the most commonly installed in vehicles for offroad is very valid. I love to use Ham radios for long trips, but often the other drivers don't have them, and that makes them definately limited. Again, great test! N7GEM
My personal experience and advice would be this. Get your GMRS radios license, its $70 and it covers everyone in your immediate family for 10 years. The midland GMRS radios are perfect for outings like this. The GMRS license allows you to use hand held radios mobile radios base radios and repeaters. The midland MXT radios are small enough and easy enough for anyone to use and mount into the vehicles. You will never have to worry about frequencys because it's all channels. Also Midland has really good antenna options.
Pretty much any radio will do a lot better when you use an antenna outside the vehicle. A simple mag mount can be plugged into most of those radios and your signal will improve a huge amount.
I'm a longtime (43 yrs) and enthusiastic ham, and I actually agree with your conclusion about CB being the best for this application. You want to be using what everyone else in your group is using. I backpack sometimes with friends, and if we take radios at all, we take FRS handheld radios (usually Motorola Talkabouts).
If you want incrementally better functionality, an SSB CB radio would communicate much better under weak signal conditions than an AM CB radio (what most of them are). Also, a full 108" whip would work better than a shortened antenna.
If some of your 4WD friends are also radio amateurs, you could consider installing 2 meter-only VHF rigs with external antennas. They are only about $150 and would work well, but they do require the amateur radio license. Look at the Kenwood TM-281A, Yaesu FT-2980R or Icom IC-2300H. Honestly, I don't think the digital voice modes would do anything for you; just simple old-fashioned FM voice would be effective enough.
If you got more seriously into amateur radio, upgrading to General and using 75 meter SSB would work really well, but that would get more spendy.
73 Scott W5ESE
I would take the ssb cb anyday, simple, simple.
Excellent, timely information, as I have been trying to decide on what to purchase. Baofengs and rugged radios were high on my list, now not so much. Might just stick to my already installed CB.
As with a few of the others, I wrote a rambling comment and then deleted it all to say this... Thank you for the great and balanced video. The comparisons were authentic, although not apples-to-apples. If you ask a true amateur radio operator which radio is best, they'll reply with "what will you be using it for?" Radio communications is not a "one-size-fits-all" situation. And that's where the hobby part of amateur radio shines. - KJ4VPJ
I liked your video. I have all three in my truck for use on the trail or trips. The HAM radio was great when we went up to Tuktoyaktuk and got separated, it had a good 25 miles range by the markers. A lot of my friends have CB so I still have one and now I have a MXT275, just wish it had more power. What I dislike about the GMRS is as you into towns, people are using them for business, but I personally believe that the HAM & GMRS are clearer and easier to hear and understand.
Before i got my ham radio mobile radio i used my handheld in the truck but with an antenna mounted outside. It’s all about the antennas!
It should be noted that there are vast differences between 27 MHz, 144 MHz, and 440 MHz. Licensed hams find out quickly that their 440 MHz and below handhelds do not work well inside of concrete structures. Switching to 1.2 GHz, however, yields better results as at this frequency the signal can bounce around inside of buildings and find an egress. Likewise, an external 1.2 GHz unit can find multiple ways to enter and bounce around the building. Not exactly great, but it does work. The 144 MHz handheld will had a tremendous disadvantage from inside of a vehicle as opposed to GMRS/FRS/440 MHz amateur transceivers. Had you utilized similar units (all UHF), you would have found similar results between the different units.
As to 27 MHz CB, 10 or 12 meter amateur units will supply similar results - assuming you do not use high power nor FM. With FM you may be able to communicate through 10 meter repeaters and find you can talk to Australia as easily as 1 mile away. That said, FRS will probably give you excellent results with a minimum of expenditure. Radios do exist that can use voice with signal levels well *below* the ambient noise levels. They are entirely digital signals. Whether or not you would be able to buy one, you likely would not wish to pay the price for it LOL.
Don't know much about overlanding so this may not be practical but small repeaters can be installed in vehicles, a small 5 watt package installed midway in the pack might be something to think about if everyone is licensed in either amateur or GMRS. More hoops to jump through on the amateur side of things, though crossband repeat doesn't require coordination. It can be an expensive proposition but may be worth it if it provides the coverage you want. Good videos, thanks for the time & work that went in to their production.
That would be rad, but Way to complicated.
For C.B. radio, I've found that if you get a 102" whip antenna and mount it properly (no spring at the base) you get a nearly perfect 1:1 swr match without any tuning. I prefer a fiberglass whip for highway use (I can't seem to find those anymore). My stainless steel 102" whip had to be "snubbed with a piece of paracord about 2 to 2-1/2 feet from the base, because at highway speed my previous one whipped around until it finally snapped off at the base.
I may have missed it, but did you note the 2018 FRS changes? They all FRS radios to transmit on most of the now shared FRS/GMRS channels at up to 2 watts without a license. That makes license free FRS units far more useful.
Moving this comment from the first video to help others who skip to this video. Thanks for understanding.
Without watching the video, I can tell you which one should work better based on the presented equipment. First, lets talk frequency. Gmrs(FRS is same frequency but limited to .5 watts no matter what power setting the radio is on) is ultra high frequency or UHF 462.000mhz, HAM radio is very high frequency or VHF 146.000mhz and CB is high frequency or HF 27.000mhz. Now, UHF and VHF are line of sight only radios, meaning both radios have to have a clear line of sight in order to work properly. We'll talk about why this isn't hard and fast in a minute. CB is on the upper band of the HF spectrum and therefore it has some HF properties. However, the 27mhz band is high enough in frequency and regulated to such a low power, that it's basically a line of sight radio. All this being said. if you had identical radios with properly matched antennas of roughly the same performance, direct line of sight cb would get the farthest distance, followed by the VHF HAM, followed by the UHF GMRS. Just as a rough rule of thumb and under ideal conditions, at 5 watts (the maximum allowed on gmrs and CB) the cb will gain about 30 percent more rang then the VHF, and the VHF will gain about 30 percent more range then the UHF. In simply terms, the higher the frequency, the faster it dissipates. Now, remember how I said CB has some HF properties? This is how CB gains it's extra distance over VHF and UHF (for our purposes). At two meters of height(a person standing up with a radio to thier ear) the max rang that could be expected from a line of sight radio is about 6 miles across a "flat" plain due to the curvature of the earth. Now, due to the chemical makeup of the atmosphere, the air acts like a prism and the lower frequency of the CB band actually gets bent back towards the earth very slightly over distance. Therefore, electically the Earth appears flatter to the CB band and it gains a bit of distance. Furthermore, the 27mhz band is better about bending around and over objects due to it 33ft wavelength, vs the 6ft wave of the 146mhz. This is why you don't have to have a completely clear line of sight with radios. The radio waves will bend, go over, reflect or go through certain objects. Now, here is why you experienced the results you did. First, I'll bet the cb had a vehicle mounted antenna on the outside of the vehicle. This is a clear advantage over the handheld radios because of surface area and height above ground. Now, even with a vehicle mounted antenna, the VHF and UHF frequencies wouldn't be able to overcome thier technical limitations. But the UHF and VHF would gain significant additional coverage due to the unobstructed view and additional height. All this being said, the reason the UHF works inside of the vehicle is because the higher frequency is able to pass through the vehicle body, while VHF is being reflected off the metal surface and back into the cab. No surprise. Some signal is able to escape out the vehicles windows, however communication would be limited to line of sight out of the window. The easiest solution to gain maximum range on VHF and UHF is to run a roof mounted external antenna. Remember, FRS cannot use external antennas, which gives a clear advantage to the 146mhz HAM.
By knowing the properties of each band and what equipment has what effect, you can choose what equipment will serve you best in the intended role. For example, VHF has a clear advantage over UHF over a open field, but is pretty useless inside a large industrial building. At least compared to UHF. CB is pretty much usless in a large skyscraper while UHF might cover multiple floors with ease. Where VHF excels over CB is transmission clarity, the ability to use digital modes, higher power (raises your signal above the noise floor of the surrounding area) and repeaters. With repeaters, it's not uncommon to be able to communicate 40-50 miles on a handheld. 40-50 miles is not going to happen on CB unless it's mountain top to mountain top.
Anyway, great video and hope this helps.
Thanks for the comment man! I think you’ve illustrated why i say CB is the best trail coms for most people. Most of us just aren’t able to dig that deep into the hobby of amateur radio for it to be useful. And the deeper you go, the more and more limited the pool Of people to talk to gets. On our last trail day we had 15 vehicles and only 3 hams. So we used it for lead and sweep and CB for everyone else.
@@AllTerrainFamily Honestly I love CB. I'm also licensed for the amateur bands. CB is more available to people and it does practically everything most overlanders need. Much past line of sight, equipment and operation gets very complicated very fast. And expensive. But for most people, CB and a VHF handheld will do 90% of everything they will ever need. Even the military uses VHF and UHF for inter squad communications. Everything boils down to "what do you want to do" also, nobody said you can't have multiple radios on board. Now, let me throw out a situation. Let's say you and some friends all travel to some recreation site for a weekend of camping and overlanding. Let's also assuming that cell phone coverage might be non existent. Let's say you want to be able to communicate between vehicles and your base camp in a valley 5-8 miles away. It wouldn't be a unheard of practice to use CB between each vehicle and a portable HAM set to communicate between your vehicle and base camp. The reason one would do this, is to facilitate rescues or request parts(or order pizza and beer) and such in a poor cell coverage area. Some states have very good VHF coverage via repeaters for park ranger and or general public use. Some people or clubs even put up private repeaters for everyone to use. So it's a good practice to find out what repeaters are in the area you will be in. Also, as strange as it might sound. It's quite possible that you could hit a repeater 40 miles away on another mountain, but not your personal vehicle 8 miles away. But it's also possible to hit a repeater 40 miles away and bounce your signal back down to your base camp. Remember, the international space station has a 146.000 MHz repeater on it. 146mhz will travel hundreds of miles with enough power and a clear line of sight. Even with 5watts it's completely possible to hit a repeater 40 miles away; with a good antenna. Height is king with VHF and UHF. Which brings up another topic. Antennas. In a emergency, your vehicle might be stuck in a dead zone. However, taking a handheld around a corner or up a hill might be enough to hit either your Basecamp or a repeater that you and you base camp can hit. I have done this a few times. Again height is king. Two options over the supplied antenna might make unthinkable comms possible. One is the slim Jim, great distance over a flat plain and, the second is a directional antenna such as a yagi or beam( looks a lot like a tv antenna). Directional antenna focus more of the power in a given direction, hence the name "beam", like a laser beam. A beam antenna is great for vertical transmission such as up and down a mountain. Now, If my math is correct, a 6db gain antenna makes a 5 watt handheld radiate like a 20 watt radio. Anyway, I'm getting deep in the weeds here. but suffice to say, CB is great for simplicity and range for $$. However, HAM radios can still offer some interesting advantages for those who are willing to get thier hands dirty. I'll leave off with this. Pickup a slimjim antenna or yagi and get a roof top antenna for your rig and run both. You already have the expensive parts. If I had to give advice to a new person with no equipment, I'd say first find out what is the most popular in your area. Southern California is primarily race radios (illegal but everyone does it) otherwise, go with a cb radio and the best antenna I could afford. Wilson makes the best cb antennas when height is a issue. If you want the very best in transmission, get a 102" stainless steel whip with a 6" spring and 18ft(important for resonance) high-quality coax cable. This makes a 108" antenna which is a quarter wave and perfect resonance on the CB band. Looks really cool too. 😁 I routinely talk 6-7 miles with my setup in moderate hills. Yes, I hit every low hanging tree and drive through awning. But I'm more concerned with performance then hitting the occasional tree. You can also pull the whip down to the bumper and hook it with a bungee when not in use. To each his own. Just remember, whatever you go with, it needs to be ABOVE THE CAB for maximum effectiveness. Best regards.
Very good explanation. Every time I say CB is actually better (watt for watt for distance) for a group off-roading together somebody invariably says something like 'You don't know what you're talking about everybody knows ham radios can go around the world'.
Awesome thx for putting in the time to get this review out. We are getting our coms straightened out and this helps a lot.
Point of correction for the person that said SSB CB is low power, no it is usually higher power around 12 watts set by the manufacture, before any type of tuning being done. The AM band of that radio is usually 4 watts!
I really liked this Video. Honestly, I’d prefer to go into the back country with a good quality CB setup and a cheap DMR mobile radio capable of Analog as well. The CB is great to fall back on or chat on. With the DMR unit, having repeater access and analog repeater access provides a huge asset in an emergency or for high priority message traffic. Plus the APRS is ideal as well. I’d love a nice 40w DMR mobile radio. Again great video! Really well done 👍
Your comment on the Rugged Radios frequency of 151.265 suggests that they have programmed frequencies where you would not want to be near (for transmitting) as this is in a sub band for emergency services. For example, in our area 151.250 is a major ambulance frequency and 151.280 is the local Sheriff's Dept.
The Part 90 Commercial Licenses can be very expensive because if you want a specific frequency, you typically have to go through a coordinator which costs hundreds of dollars in addition to the actual FCC license itself. There are some shared frequencies known as itinerants that could be licensed without coordination, but you still have to get the FCC license for your group. You would normally only be communicating with other stations in your group if you get a specific frequency. You could license all the expected stations in your group with the one license as long as the equipment meets the current Part 90 certification. www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/industrial-business.
My thinking is that either CB be used for mobiles, or GMRS mobiles plus either GMRS and/or FRS handhelds which work better than CB handhelds and their form factor is more convenient too. That way unlicensed FRS individuals can generally communicate with the GMRS licensees.
The changes in 2017 now allow inter-operation between FRS and GMRS for the most part. The one exception is that the 467 MHz interstitial channels 8-14 only allow the 0.5 watt ERP (Effective Radiated Power) for all stations so only GMRS handhelds can practically use these channels. The 462 MHz interstitial channels 1-7, allow 2 watts ERP for FRS, and 5 watts ERP for GMRS. The main 462 MHz channels 15 - 22, allow FRS the same 2 watts ERP, but allow GMRS the full 50 watts output watts. And GMRS can use detachable and gain antennas while FRS can only use the integral built-in antenna. There are only the 22 channels, plus the 8 GMRS repeater 467 MHz inputs. The ones that some manufacturers claim above channel 22 are just the same channels with the addition of a pre-programmed "privacy" tone. It just means that you won't hear other stations, but if they are not using a tone, they will hear you, if they are in range.
Thanks for the detail Rick. One thing I was going to mention (that you touch on) is that although the Rugged Radios / Baofengs / other Ham radios can often tune commercial, GMRS, FRS or Ham bands they are FCC type approved and limited legally to transmit on certain bands by said type approval. This rapidly can get into the weeds for people not into Ham as a hobby. I suggest that people new to radio and interested in something beyond big name channel-locked commercial CB/FRS/GMRS offerings (like Uniden, Motorola, etc.) reach out to the Ham community before purchasing equipment for free assistance in selecting and buying the right gear and using it in a legal way. Reno has a great ham club (SNARS snars.org/home/) and there are others all around the area. In my limited time as a Ham I've found people helpful and interested in mentoring new users who demonstrate respect and a desire to do it right.
ThePyleDriver 100% spot on!
Great work on this. I know it took a lot of time. I just got my HAM license and had assumed they would be better. My brother and I bought BaoFeng's just as an entry point. They are so cheap we could just use them as spotting radios I guess. (Though, after watching this, I'm not sure it was worth the effort it took to get our licenses)
It is. Away from vehicles they are great.
Dont forget you can use an HT with a magnet mount antenna on your roof or hood and your results will be much better! Also, as he mentioned in the video, they weren't using repeaters. Program in some repeaters and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I can hear a repeater ~17 miles from my house crystal clear with an HT. (Just got my license, so I haven't tried TX yet.) It's relatively flat terrain, but it still shows that repeaters greatly extended your range at which you can communicate.
Hello just wondering when you would be re-running this experiment, with the correctly tuned/swr CB antennas that you mentioned, as looking forward to that video.
Regards
Daz
I’m not a ham radio guy but I have used cb and little handheld midlands. Both work fine. Every time I have broken down needed help the cell phone is the way we called for help. Don’t forget off road racers used to start a fire and the smoke would signal for help. Cb is cheaper than even the little handheld radios. Used cb $5 at a yard sale. Wilson little will $40. Set the swr ready to go.
One often overlooked type of radio is the MURS. They too don't require a license and are recently making a comeback as radio manufacturers are supplying new and FCC type accepted portables again. I would like to use my MURS radios while out on the trail but many (most) people have never heard of it and I get the deer-in-the-headlights look when I mention it.
Good for you !!!! I have seen only one other person mention MURS. A big advantage to MURS, besides being License Free, is that you can legally use an external antenna. There are 5 frequencies in the 151 to 154 MHz region and a full quarter wave antenna is only about 17 inches long.
I agree with you guys about murs KK7T.
Conclusions 12:25 😁
A cb single sideband is extremely easy to operate, and gets significantly better distance than a regular cb signal. But regular cb is also quite good.
Very useful, u do with u have in hands and still very useful and informative. Great job! TKS, big 73!
As you said previous the best radio is the one everyone is using.
SSB tuning is easy, you use the clarifier knob to adjust the signal a little and you lock in on them.
Again you did another good video. You said at the end that if you missed anything to let you know. I want you to know some grms mobiles and handhelds also have repeater capabilities and some have same output as ham mobiles and handhelds. Ham radios on simplex are no better than GMRS radios on simplex so as I said in my last comment on your other video it’s all about antenna not always about power. I’ve talked to other states on a 4 watt cb but I had an excellent antenna and properly tuned. So good job and tell your patrons that if they don’t want to take ham exam go for GMRS license no test required and covers whole family for 10 years. I am a ham radio operator and a GMRS operator both licensed and I have also been and still are a cb operator since the 1960’s before the cb craze of the 70’s. 73’s keep up the good work.
Love your videos......thanks a ton for the education.....incredibly useful!!!!!
Great test and summary Mike!
I like a well tuned CB with a well tuned antenna and a little extra power.
Most repeaters are single stations so not all repeaters in the area will be triggered by your call. With that said, more and more repeaters are being 'chained' so that will in fact happen. For example, you can talk around most of Michigan right now by using a repeater that is chained. Each repeater has it's own frequency and station id, but they are chained.
i would be very interested to see how you would do with a cobra 29 ltd with a 4ft. fire stick tuned.. as many of the vehicles that these would be going in are highly altered from stock.. you could drop a modest amount and see just what you can really do with a swing kit and a kicker.. not trying to say any one is better but if you wanted apples to apples you could set a solid price point .. say 250 i think alot of people would be surprised at how far you can reach .. from the top of a hill looking out over the mesas i wouldn't be surprised to here you got 40 50 miles easy
if you move to like Alabama or Texas, I think you have to use 11 meters at 10 thousand watts through an eleven element beam on a couple hundred foot tower hidden on a corner of your ranch.
Channel 27 is a frs channel at or below 2w according to the FCC. it is also channel 15 according to the frequency chart for frs gmrs.
Just a side note. Digital modes such as DMR have better audio, but range suffers due to the radio needing every bit of data to reconstruct the audio. In plain English, your radio won't even turn on if it's not in reliable range and you won't know someone is trying to call you. Now, to be confusing, APRS is a digital modes over FM or conventional analog. Digital modes over analog gain range because it only sends tones like Morse code and it doesn't have to distinguish between "this and that". It's either tone A, or tone B.
Now, if you want to do something really cool. You can run a Y splitter from your baufang into your phone and run digital modes from a app such as FLdigi or APRS Droid. Baufang actually makes a cable for the uv5r called the aprs cable. Anyway, using your phone (or laptop) you can send GPS coordinates, text messages, and even pictures via radios instead of cell service. This is a effective way to communicate information when cell service is unavailable and or conventional voice is spotty.
Again, thanks for the comment. my head is spinning. And I still don’t have anyone to talk to.
@@AllTerrainFamily do you mean on the radio, or about this subject? We Amateur radio geeks(I probably don't qualify for that title) are few and far between these days. 😥
@@kennethh5657 On the radio. If you go beyond the standard dual band it gets rarer and rarer.
@@AllTerrainFamily Yes, this is a multifaceted issue. Primary issue is the equipment, space, and technical knowledge is considerably more involved then a simple VHF or radio. Also with the Advent of cell phones, it's not as necessary as it was even twenty years ago. It is still possible to get into regular conversations with people. Just key up the Mike and call CQ. Most have thier radios on, but don't activity try to get contacts. It's kind of cultural thing these days. People just keep to themselves. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a conversation going between 15-20 people by just saying something random on the radio. A lot of people also fall into certain groups and aren't really into talking outside of that group. Contester and racers are kinda like that. Surprisingly, many of the new HAM are closet preppers. Meaning they only want the equipment and license so then can communicate amongst themselves and they're not really into the hobby aspect. A lot of factors make up the general community these days. It's not like the old.
I had a layfeette back in the day 23 channel.
Many times I talk recieve better then most and many times told I come in good but no carrier.
Also a power mike will make a bug difference. Meaning reguardless which radio best results come with power mike.
Hello! NW Reno here! Nice video, I’m going to try out some Btech GMRS-V1’s to see if they are any good
Great summary and really nice job on the whole test / production! I've been checking out DMR on my HT and am currently debating making my Mobile rig selection with it in mind. There is no one Mobile radio that does everything I want unfortunately and the Jeep has limited room... :p
Get something like an icom 7000 or 706mkiig. Do the MARS/CAP mod and you can do HF (depending on your license) CB, 2 meters, MURS, 70cm, and GMRS/FRS.
Limited room? Mount it to the roof!
both part 1 and 2 were excellent and very informative. One thing that might have helped with the cb is to keep the door closed. Having the door open can destroy a good swr.
If you have the doors properly bonded (grounded) to the chassis of the vehicle then it shouldn't make that much of a difference.
you guys out their let me tell you THE MIDLAND MXT275 GMRS RADIO IS THE BEST DAMN RADIO I HAVE EVER PURCHASED YOU ARE CRAZY IF YOU DO NOT BUY THIS OUTSTANDING PRODUCT. MY HAT'S OFF TO MIDLAND FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS BEAUTIFUL PRODUCT I AM TICKLED PINK!
Question about the rugged radio. They sell a moto version with a nice in helmet and handle bar PTT harness. If one person has the tech license for ham, and is riding with their family members, are you within compliance with the FCC. Or does immediate family also need a license?
A 75watt yaesu ft2900 is the way to go 2 meters only radio is all you need. Always use a magnetic mount antenna when in a vehicle and you will have no issues with communications. 2 meters also has tons of local repeaters if simplex ever fails. Or get a yaesu ft60r dual band radio with an external shoulder speaker mike. Telescoping antennas work best for the ft60 Olof you don’t want to use a magnet mount.
Great comparison and I love how you put it all together. Would you consider simulating one regular and one emergency scenario? I think ham a DMR radio with APRS and GPS would earn it's keep once the sun goes down. DMR would produce much clearer audio and a mobile station could easily put out 100 watts.
Here in Holland is CB legal with 4 watt on the antenna. But handheld or an antennea on the car makes great difference. Anyway, i have had both and i prefer hamradio, because the radio's are better and have more legal power. 4 watts on 11 meters or 65 watts on 2 meters or 70 cm. About 4 km on cb instead more than 30 km on 2 meter and about 23 km on 70 cm. The same road and no repeaters. Modulation was FM. in ssb it will be more. I prefer ham-radio, cb is for fun and without a licence good enough for playing arround.
I have got ca 50 km on a 4 W CB but could not get contact with my Taxi 25 W VHF radio at the same spot.
Nice test, well done. Perhaps it would also be interesting to test another mobile antenna, for example a Sirio turbo 5000 or Sirtel Santiago 1200 or similar. These antennas will dramatically increase your range.
One thing that I was hoping to find was the distances at the various checkpoints. Did you mention that earlier? If not could you list the distances between stations at the various checkpoints. Thanks much.
They’re evenly spaced over 2.9 miles.
Here’s the waypoints and track: www.gaiagps.com/public/0TSN5FbWHkLZtnYEmVbPmQX4
Please let me suggest CB SSB.
In AM mode you've got a range of 12 miles and with the right antena in USB pra LSB modes a range of 1,000 miles.
It seems that with your results you would want one HAM in the group with a mobile unit for emergencies, everyone has a CB channel they could communicate with everyone at once, an FRS radio to talk to other vehicles without overwhelming everyone else with chatter, so each subgroup could be on different FRS channels. Great test! 73 de KD4NZR
you can buy a new, name brand, 2 meter, 50+ watt mobile ham radio for about $150. So while it's still more money than an AM only CB radio it's not overly pricey. Installation is the same as installing a CB. I'd install one of those and a CB and have the best of both worlds. The power of a mobile ham and the number of users of a CB.
As a side note, if you buy one of those expensive $350 duel band mobile ham radios, you can use it as a cross band repeater for other people using HTs, effectively extending the range of the HT's by having your own mobile repeater in the middle of the group.
I wish to question something that you said about CB's. Technically you do need a license for CB, but the FCC will not come after you unless you are really obnoxious. I read about someone who was fined and lost his equipment on CB just a week ago. I do not know what he did as it takes a lot to get the FCC to go after someone on CB, but this person did screw up enough to get fined and loss of equipment. I think the fine now days is around $10,000.00 per incident so he has a big bill to pay.
Side band on CB is not any harder to set up than the AM or normal set up. It does give you more talking power and also a higher PEP power so it would have been an advantage in this situation. Two meter radios can have up to 80 watts in a stock mobile mount which would have also given it a big advantage over the maximum of 5 watts on a handheld. Also FM is a lot more picky about terrain and placement than AM so that is also a factor you should have taken into account.
All said and done this was a good test and comparison for the different radio types that people are using on trails now-days. Thank you for taking the time to do this and let people know about the options and their limitations.
Good info - one piece is missing. Ham requires a license AND requires that you use your call sign on the air to identify yourself. Usually at the end of each transmission. Failure to identify is illegal. I suspect GRMS is the same. I didn't hear a single call sign ID in your video.
You have to give your call sign every 10 minutes. Not sure about gmrs. I edited out our call signs.
You should make it clear, that you need to have a GMRS license to use GMRS radio and a separate Ham radio license for Ham radio
If you are going to use both ham and GMRS radios you will need both licenses
If the radio antenna is removable from radio then you definitely need a license to operate it according to the new FCC regulations as of September 2019
I was watching your radio videos in order to find a good FRS ( whatever that means) radio. Now I gotta go do more research 😂
FRS…
@@AllTerrainFamily 😂 wasn’t the point, but thanks, I fixed that
A hand held radio can be good in a car if it hooked up to a outside vehicle roof antenna
If you used that midland radio in gmrs on high power how much range/ difference would you have gotten?
Can you make another video using the Boefang UV!5R?? Think radio kind of does it all except CB. Would be a great entry radio for newcomers to the 4x4 Community.
No.
Very nicely done; watched both part 1 & 2. I thought your tests were well done, which is typically what I would be using these comm devices for. I also agree with you; NOT interested in the HAM radio route. Just want to communication (listen) to Jeep to Jeep and my hikers at certain check points. This has been quite helpful.
Thanks for the shoutout!
Super helpful
A Baofeng can ONLY be used legally on the amateur bands, and only then with at least a technician class license. The reason is that a commercial radio (for which a no test license is required) cannot be used on just any frequency by simply dialing it up in VFO mode. It can only operate on the frequencies assigned by the FCC when the commercial license is granted. The Baofeng (or any amateur radio) cannot be used legally for FRS (because they have a removable antennas) or for GMRS (because the Baofeng can operate at any frequency selected by the VFO). The Rugged Radio (sometimes called race radios) is NOT legal for any commercial frequency if it can be adjusted by the user to any frequency. There is the whole issue of type acceptance. It's also important to point out that amateur radios cannot be used on amateur frequencies if the operator is not licensed.
For off-roading there are really only two choices: (1) CB, or (2) amateur radio. In both cases a mobile rig affixed to the vehicle with an outside antenna will provide the most range. The amateur radio will outperform the CB by a huge factor (but is only useful if the members of the group are licensed). Getting an amateur radio (ham) license is a bit more challenging because of the test, but it will pay off in the long run. If you don't want to take a test, then the only legal way to get on the air is CB.
Hello from Reno!
Would have been interesting to see all of the radios have mobile antennas. Or if u had used a 50 watt ham mobile radio
VHF and UHF frequencies are line of sight. There is one form of atmospheric states called " ducting" and
"Meteoroid" trail propagation that do permit greater distances, HOWEVER they are not exactly common place.
And one more thing, Amateur Radio repeaters are NOT public propety. The owners of said amateur repeaters can forbid a person or group from their repeater through several methods aka closed repeaters and it is entirely legal.
I am glad I waited to watch the second video before commenting. It's great to see this kind of video and trying to make things all fair and straight - but I don't think that was accomplished. If the intent was to be in the car then you should have been in the car the whole time. Sometimes you were at the side the rear the front and with different radios the FRS and Rugged seemed to be in the rear mostly and ham next to the antenna suck of a car. I think the ham would have performed better than the CB in similar set up conditions. I.E. sitting in the car with an antenna outside the car. There is a small inexpensive window mount that would achieve this mission without the purchase of a full mobile rig. For both the CB and the HAM - have you considered BONDING all of the metal parts of the vehicle together to create a fabulous ground plan. The CB would preform even better if the car body were better grounded. I also want to thank you for calling out the RUGGED RADIOS for their true identity - too many videos out there saying oh just buy them you don't need a license. I know Sorry for being picky - I think this video has all the right things to say - and I do thing your conclusions were correct. And don't forget your callsign on the ham...
Hey! I live in Reno and offroad frequently. Do you wheel with a club too? We should meet up and do some wheeling!
We don’t do club trips, no. Occasionally we do tours with our viewers coordinated via our Facebook group. Would love to meet you on the trail!
My best get cobra cb with ssb i can get 30miles local here they do really good on skip it well worth it for skip talk.
CB with a good antenna and a small amp will Gitter Done.
Try SSB on 75meters with a NVIS antenna.
Mike, how do these radios compare to a satellite phone ?
I have no experience with a satellite phone. But a sat phone is expensive, requires no license and can connect anywhere on the planet even if no one is with you. But it’s not a push-to-talk group communication device like a radio.
CB are best! Wait what??? lol Cool videos thanks for sharing, My thoughts are that that CB's are the SIMPLEST and most COST EFFECTIVE to get into and that's about it.. When it comes to "BEST" you can not say that the one radio that can you out of jam or an emergent situation or allow emergency services to pinpoint your location when MILES away from any signal has to be the HAM radio. The reach of the Hams plus the built in APRS ( on some radios) are far superior to the CB. Now if you just going down the road, then go for it with a cb, but if you are out in the sticks and things go bad a ham radio is the way to go period. Also your antennas make a HUGE difference... The CB performed well simply because of that exterior antenna. Get a mobile HAM radio with exterior antenna and Compare apples to apples and see the difference... A 50 watt mobile ham radio attached to a an exterior antenna with 3/5 DB gain will destroy the CB.. Anyway good stuff brudda! Just sharing my thoughts and opinions!
You’re right, and I acknowledge as much. But the barrier to entry into amateur radio is higher than most of us care to climb. A lot of knowledge and work goes into learning to effectively use the equipment you’re proposing.
You would have probably better range if all used mobile hams in simplex mode but you would all have to be licensed operators. I used a FT-2800M in my old truck. With a 1/4 wave antenna for 2 meter is 15" long and looks much better than 100" cb antenna. I ran a legal 65 watts of power and could talk across the state. With WINLINK i used to talk to people in Japan and Australia all the time, you can even do phone calls (autopatch). Ham is leagues better than CB but if youre all not willing to study an afternoon to pass the exam cb is pretty good. I studied for 3 days and took my tech and general ham tests and passed no problem . Paid the $35 for GMRS too so im licensed for both now. Id never go back to CB. If you had an antenna mounted on your vehicle connected to the other HT radios you may have gotten better communication too. Tough call. Good video though.
Ham has downsides, primarily the massive quantity of know-it-alls. It’s hard to talk to hams. I became 15% more annoying the day i got my license.
Love the shirt @shakeygraves
We saw him at the Montbleu in Tahoe!
2 meters fm is the way to go. The band is crystal clear unlike AM cb on 26 and 27mhz. I love ham antennas because they don’t require any tuning and work great as long as you don’t damage your coax.
you should do more test on the boafengs you can do frs,murs talk on them without license on boafengs and you can get naygoa NA-771 or Abbree 42.5 INCH there's alot mods for boafengs i do listen ham repeaters boafengs they do better on murs and frs boafengs are like 1970's cobra cb radio for frs.
You really can't do frs with a baofeng, legally any way... but to each their own
You keep saying high mt.
Come east and you will see real mts reguardless of altitude. From St.louis mississippi river to denver is 1 mile high. But to us in Midwest& east ..we see denver as flat and our radios also see that as flat. Test your radios in real mts like west virgina pennsylvania Newyork. Where you csnt talk around mts cause they are everywhere. So the signal must go up and down. That I think makes CB the best choice. Because it goes UP & DOWN
The difference is too massive to really even compare,
while 40 channels between roughly 26.9 Mhz and 27.405 Mhz ( That used to be a ham band, given away by the FCC ) is OK, 4 watts on AM and 12 watts pep on SSB for citizens band is considered low power (QRP).
The affects of solar conditions on the various HF and VHF bands mean, you are going to experience no regional communications to surrounding states or farther until solar affects improve on limited 11 meter CB band.
Ham Radio offers CW, AM, FM, SSB, RTTY, SSTV, FSK, Satellite, High speed mesh data, Amateur TV, many digital modes on HF, Long wave communications with low power below 530 khz, 1500 watts pep (Peak envelope power ) on 160 meters 1.8-2 Mhz, 80/75 meters 3.5 to 4 Mhz, lower power 100 watts ERP on 10 channels near 5.13 mhz, 1500 watts pep from 7.0 to 7.3 Mhz, 200 watts PEP of Data & RTTY from 10.1 to 10.15 Mhz, 1500 watts pep from 14.0 to 14.35 Mhz ( One of the best bands for communications across U.S. and around the world in the day time and evenings, when solar conditions are good.)
18.068 Mhz to 18.168 Mhz, 21.0 to 21.45 Mhz, 24.89 mhz to 24.99 mhz, 28.0 mhz to 29.7 Mhz, 50.0 to 54 Mhz, 144.0 mhz to 148 mhz, 222 mhz - 225 mhz, 420 mhz to 450 mhz, 902 mhz to 928 mhz, 1240 mhz to 1300 mhz, 2300 mhz to 2310 mhz, 2390 to 2450 Mhz, 3300 to 3500, 5650 mhz to 5925 mhz, 10.0 ghz to 10.5 ghz, 24 ghz to 24.25 ghz, 47.0 ghz to 47.2 ghz, 76 ghz to 81 ghz, 122.25 ghz to 123.0 ghz, 134 ghz to 141 ghz, 241 ghz to 250 ghz, all above 275 ghz, but no pulse emissions, and the license to engineer & develop new emissions.
I'm going to get a bunch of string and two cups and tie it nice and tight...
What kind of string? Paper or plastic cups? Internal strings or external? I bet you don’t even have a license for CUP radios! Why don’t you just leave this to the experts...
@@AllTerrainFamily my point being it used to be fun. Remember having those Star Trek walkie talkies that look like giant communicators. And they all ran on Channel 14 of the CB radio? At any rate it used to be fun. My fears it's going to be necessary soon
@@Anthonyhenryricci I agree. A lot of the Ham guys are really only into the tech of radios and don't really have much to talk about. If you listen the repeaters, at least in my area, it's just small talk about gardening, football and what doctor visits they have to go to and THE WEATHER. They know all about faraday cages, and nothing about communication. I just want to keep in contact with friends and family on the trail.
@@AllTerrainFamily of course. And I am thoroughly grateful for the work all of you put into the experiment, for lack of a better term. I know working out the audio had to be teatious.
One other note, just as I began to consider ham radio licensing and the such, I found out that California shut down all repeaters. Legally! Some new statute. I fear it will become illegal nationwide. Check marfoogle news @RUclips
You leave a lot of stones unturned, the way you have been testing is not really suitable for the conditions Using HT inside the cab is a horrid idea when you can get a cheap mag mount antenna to SMA for the HT that would give you more DB gain and better signal instead of holding it into a cage of RF interference, plus not having a tuned CB is also a horrid idea to the point that you could damage the cb its self
You used unfair test conditions if the CB radio has an externally mounted antenna and the other radios don't. You can have at least the Amateur radio using an externally mounted antenna with the hand held, or have all hand held radio tests with rubber duck antennas.
Unfair maybe! I would think this test would be comparable in regards to how most people set up and use the various radios.
FCC regulations spell out operator requirements. Midland or other manufactures are not responsible to tell purchaser what their legal requirements are!
Well then. Don’t complain when nobody besides a level V ninja ham can figure it out.
@@AllTerrainFamily What? FCC Regs are written at a 5th grade level! :-)
On the cobra can I talk back on the radio
What about combo cb ham radio
Doesn’t exist
@@AllTerrainFamily thank you . I keep reading that their is one. But no list of any name . I'm just looking into ham . We use cb off road and hunting. But like somthing better
Why couldn't go top of the mountain you can probably better range for all radios.
Use more... or you are most likely operating illegal if you don't have a permit
Huh?
Use UHF radios
WHAT IS A RUGGED RADIO?
Save your time, just get a good cb radio and cb antenna. No license requirements and beter range.
So rugged radio is a ham radio :)
Wrong CB antenna! 102 inch whip antenna makes a world of difference. A stock out of the box Cb is crap. I run a 102 inch whip with Galaxy 98VHP. I live in East TN mountains all a round. Swap you cobra 18 with a Styker 94HPC and you will see there is a big difference on performance. You want your SWR as close to 1.1 as possible with little reflection. How your antenna on back of Jeep behind the tire is a terrible place to be mounted. An antenna needs to be 80% above roof line to get any performance out of it. I’m going to make a video on the CB set up and best places to have antenna mounted. I have seen to many off road videos and CB antenna is in the wrong place.
U only need a license for frequencies not radios
That’s the problem. You have been transmitting on a frequency for use by the Department of Environmental Resources here in New Jersey. 151.265 is not a nationwide free frequency. Depending on where you go, someone is assigned this frequency. Who is selling these radio ? Don’t they have common sense. We live in a governmentally regulated society. If they want to just talk, get a GMRS license and a GMRS radio and use GMRS frequencies. That’s what is for !
Check out the owners manual for a GMRS radio. They list the channels, but don’t specify which is frs or gmrs. It’s very confusing even for those of us who care to learn.
That’s my point, they have no business selling these radios to the general public. The government has set aside frequencies for families to use. These people ignore them and just put in random frequencies. Thanks for the reply. When you have a chance would you review the BTech GMRS mobile and hand held units. They seem to be just what you are looking for. 50 watts from the mobile unit and 5 watts from the handi talkie.
You do not need an FCC license to use the gmrs higher power channels. You can run up to 40 watts of power on gmrs without a FCC license because the FCC considers a FCC license as following the rules of the FCC. Anything over 40 watts requires you to pay the FCC to obtain a license to use a radio over 40 watts, but no test taking is required. Sounds dumb but look it up. I'd like to see you guys do a comparison between the Midland Micro Mobile against otheres like it.
So much incorrect info. GMRS requires a license. Period. Doesn't matter if its 5 watts or 50 the legal power limit for GMRS. FRS may share frequencies but they're at 2 watts (0.5 watts on channels 8-14 GMRS id restricted to 0.5 watts on these channels as well) and have narrower bandwidth requirements.
Thank you !!!! I don't know where Billy got his information ...... bur he could be getting a visit from the FCC soon.
@@dajeffrey1 doubt it they dont seem to care much about any of this.
Ever seen Pump Up The Volume?
If you needed a license you wouldn’t be able to buy the radios. Just like you can’t buy certain chemicals without an applicator license. The SEC doesn’t care stop acting like they do.
That’s not the case. They regulate usage not sales. The problem is that they don’t really make it clear when you but a radio that you need a license for some or all of it’s features. Also, the FCC not the SEC.
All-Terrain Family tue day I need a license is tue day tue come tell me I need one. Otherwise they need to require one to purchase the equipment.
Do you fish?