But... What about Line Source AND Line Array Loudspeakers?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- In this weeks Tech Talk, Danny Richie from GR-Research walks us through the ins and outs of line source and line array audiophile loudspeakers.
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www.GR-Research.com
Audiocircle: www.audiocircl...
Love hearing the physics and science behind what is happening explained. I was a sonar technician in the military so this makes sense explaining timing, phase shifts, and dB levels. Thanks for not dumbing it down.
Thanks. I feel like I am walking a fine line between trying to make this stuff easy to understand and not dumbing it down.
As someone who built many diy speakers in the 80’s and 90’s I like how you explained this. I often went crazy trying to get the xover right. Not easy for the amateur.👍
Well, I have to admit that I’ve not been complementary of some of your videos. But, this one, I’ve watched twice to take on board its message. I found it educational, and informative. Thank you. Complements where complements are due. 👍
Audio Professor Danny now in session! Man I am learning so much from this video series. Very interesting video, as always. Before this, I did not know the difference between line source, and array speakers, and how they function. Thanks for making these awesome videos, and putting out all of this great knowledge. Learning from these videos is going to result in my system sounding, and performing better!
Hi-Fi Haven me too. I'm learning everything that I couldn't get out of a the Speaker Design Cookbook as far as theory goes, and the professor here does a great job of describing exactly what's going on, I'm so happy I stumbled onto these videos!
Thanks, Danny! It was quite a treat to see another video of yours.
I know they’re not the same type of design, but I own a pair of Tekton Pendragons which utilize a D’Appolito type array of speakers rather than a line array, but I understood what you meant about putting your ear up to the drivers or tweeters. They just aren’t doing what you’d think they would be, but when you step away, a large soundstage occurs. It’s like some kind of magic trick.
Thanks so very much for sharing your knowledge. You’re obviously a true master of your craft. 🎶🔊🙂
Great information Danny , very interesting... Once again , you have increased my education into a design I've always been curious about.. Thank you for you time and this Tech Talk series is always appreciated ... Have a fantastic week. ✌️
Yeah, I'll just say this - Wow!!! Thank you so much Danny... so educational / enlightening / and down right fun!
Great way to learn what basic design rules to apply when building a dipole speaker. Tnx!
can you respond to this comment by HF ?
"a brief discussion of tall line-source systems, mainly as they deal with low bass coming from numerous, vertically aligned small-diameter drivers. Now, some tall planar and electrostatic systems are line sources themselves, but the video was discussing a line of conventional drivers, and that approach is as valid as what we have with planar systems. What the video did not mention was an inherent problem with tall line sources above the bass range. The line is emitting sound from the center will be electrically in phase with what is being emitted from the top and bottom. However, the sounds from the top and bottom, and points between are out of acoustic phase with the center at the listener's ears. Think of such a system with only three drivers: top, bottom, and center. If all three are operating identically with the electrical input, but at midrange and higher frequencies the outputs from the top and bottom will be out of phase with the center. Add in more drivers between those top and bottom drivers and things actually get worse.
As noted, due to the longer wavelengths, at lower frequencies, this may be no big deal, but at higher frequencies it will be. This artifact was clearly outlined by Stanley Lipshitz and John Vanderkooy in an AES convention paper delivered way back in November of 1986: "Finite-Length Line Sources." In the paper Lipshitz mathematically outlined and also illustrated with generated mathematical curves, that above about 1,000 Hz the frequency response (due to those out-of-phase artifacts I mentioned) of such a finite-length system could not deliver uniform output.
They concluded that such speakers, no matter the design of the driver or drivers, could not be considered as high-fidelity sound reproducers."
I don't care what anyone says, i Just LOVE Multiple speakers! The more the marier.
What amazing speakers! Thanks so much for this series!
could you go into some more detail about how you make a crossover for multiple bass drivers, as in the nx speakers, and more interestingly the crossovers for the line source? There is frustratingly little resources I have found for designing non standard slope crossovers. I'd like to learn, so if you could point me at a beginner friendly resource that would be awesome.
thanks for talking about this topic, i enjoying listening :)
when you mention beaming i just remember that my 2 way speaker(Spendor SA1) has 4800 hz crossover point, and sure enough playing 4500hz on them the output varies a lot off axis, a lot of dips moving my head around one speaker playing. thousand hz above and below that it is nice and even. i got a well dampened room above 1000hz so i don't notice the beaming in listening position, but i imagine in a bigger room with more reflections and placed properly for imaging those dips may add some coloration from the non direct output.
Great insights on acoustics , thanks for sharing the know how dear
Just ordered my NX-Treme 👍
Great explanations. Thanks.
Great strat tone in the intro lol. Texans know how to handle strats
Danny, I love these videos and want to say how much i appreciate this. Big thumbs up.
Thank you very much.
Jeroen
Brilliant video, thanks Danny!
I have (4) 6 inches mid driver line source and crossed at 1400hz.. it's sounds amazing even from a hundred meters away
with 7 inch front baffle*
Very intrigued by the open baffle video. I currently own a pair of BG RD-75's that I've been running in a sealed enclosure crossed over at 300Hz to a 12" Aurum Cantus woofer in a transmission line enclosure. I'm happy with the setup but find the mid bass to be muddy. I'd appreciate any thoughts on a line of open baffle mid woofs along side the RD75's mounted open baffle as well.
Great video..I’m highly interested in the upcoming true line source....will have to drive out and demo them when I have time.
Thanks you! I learned a lot in this video. Look forward to more content.
No plate on receptacle! I wish I could turn off my electrician brain sometimes.... lol. Great vid!!
how picky are line source speakers when it comes to the room size or room characteristics? do they demand a lot of distance between them and the wall and the listener?
Some can load the room (like our old LS-6 and LS-9 models) and some don't load the room as much (open baffle models), but the open baffle models must be further out into the room. And a 6 foot tall line is just tall enough to cover an average listening distance for most room.
Love the vids Danny!!!
Thanks for the good info as usual, Hope you have them hooked up when I pick up my upgraded speakers.
What about curving the front baffle to point right at the listener? That should help drastically right? Assuming the seating is always the same.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
When will the new linearray be ready?
KS Digital Linemaster - one of the bests ;-)
With that design, the length of the tweeter greatly limits the vertical dispersion. The highs will be very limited to a narrow range that must be kept at ear level. So it will not be a speaker that will produce an very even in room response.
The advantage of having 2 drivers over 1 larger one is that the driver mass is reduced right? On a large woofer the motor strength can be so much that the mass is completely insignificant. This line array stuff seems like a wild goose chase.
By beaming do you mean getting more directional? So the line array is a way to cheat and widen the soundstage? And if I have that right, I have a pair of Silver flute 6.5" woofers, or bass midranges. The guys at Madisound told me to cross it over no higher than 2500 HZ. But at 2200 HZ it starts beaming and looses the width of its soundstage. So, I also have a pair of Peerless Dome mids from an old pair of speakers I built years ago, and a matching pair of their dome tweeters. The tweeters have been used everywhere, they are rectangular with the voice coil wires coming up to the voice coil from the bottom or top edges of the mounting plate at an angle. Once you've seen them you'll recognize them. The only problem with them is that they seem to drop off like crazy at around 10khz, or so it sounds like it does. But getting back to the woofers, if I crossed them over at roughly 2khz and used the dome mids fromthere up to where the tweeter wants to cross over, would that work? Could I ad a larger woofer to handle the bottom end as the flutes drop off at 50 Hz and I'd like something to take it down to at least 30 Hz?
I wish I could have grabbed those 3 line arrays that Ken Fritz’s impatient family sold after he died. He had nearly a quarter million invested in them and the kids let them all go for 10 grand. !!
An interesting overview, well explained. Thank you.
Will these sound good still if your ceiling is just under 8 feet? (The xtreme)
Great video Danny very informative. I have some what of an interest in full range drivers, what’s your take on that (OB, horn loaded)? The prices of some full range drivers is enormous and is that “justified” if you can get a really nice multi driver set for the same price? Maybe an idea for a next video
I have tested and measured about 100 different full range drivers over the years. I have designed and sold some as well. There are some disadvantages or limitations to overcome in all cases. The larger diameter drivers have very a poor off axis response. The smaller ones have low sensitivity. None of them typically play down very low. All of them give up speed, clarity, and detail to any good tweeter. Many of them have break up or rising responses that need to be corrected. I have yet to have one in here that didn't need a correction filter of some kind. Some of them though, have a really nice mid-range.
The Genesis Prime speaker system (latest iteration of the Infinity IRS/Genesis One) uses a line array of 20 round planar tweeters in front, plus 6 in the rear, per channel whose diaphragms are more than one inch apart. Does that make it a bad design?
Thanks, Danny. Very good video. Are the "Line Source" speakers going to be only available in the US or orders are going to be taken even from Europe, please.
I assume those planar drivers in the line source don't do mid-bass, so what will you be using for that in the actual speaker? Dedicated mid-bass drivers or just your open baffle servo subs?
Line arrays are my favorites!
Line source; does not become one driver, only at lower frequencies.
I am about to purchase a pair of Martin Logan ESL-9 electrostatics. Are they not considered a dipolar line source? I also like the fact that the panel is crossed over at 380 Hz. far from the sensitive portion of our hearing, a true two way system..... Danny, you may have a thought about these? I would be interested to hear.... (O:
would having a line array help with punch in a system ? im looking for big impact , im looking at fullrange drivers meant for line array
Hmm, What are these, "Magical" attributes of the much vaunted. And yet very seldom seen- "Line Source Array" speaker systems he alludes to in the video? I thought that the "Line Source Array" theories, orig. (White Paper) laid all of that out in a very clear fashion.
Both of those speakers and your servo controlled open baffle subs are the only speakers on earth I really really really want to hear...
To save cost on the line array could you have the drivers all in a aluminium frame that sets in a mdf cabinet? What is the expected full cost for line array on both kit and complete options?
The original Line Force was in milled Aluminum. It was a lot more expensive and really heavy compared to this last pair that was a milled composite.
@@dannyrichie9743 what I was trying to say is just a 1" tray that holds the drivers you screw the tray that is 6 ft tall to the mdf
What about the "EPIQUE” line array speakers? I believe they are phase arrayed.
Danny how does the NX ETREME compared to the line source array next to it compared?
What are those blues mono blocks? Looks nice.
They were custom built by Gary Dodd (Dodd Audio) for Danny to use at audio shows.
Is it a good match for line array open baffle ?
w17rc3808 and pt2c-8 9 each side
thank
How do these kinds of speakers load the amp? Do you need a lot of wattage to drive them with good volume?
No, from what I understand it's just the opposite. Using so many drivers makes "line" type designs a high sensitivity system. You could also throw a lot of power their way and they'd love it, but it's not necessary. As far as amplifier load goes it should be about same as any other 4-8 ohm speaker,depending on how the design is wired.
No mention of Don Keele's breaktrought Constant Beamwidth Transducer ?
Why would I?
@@dannyrichie9743 because it's a line array with huge advantages compared to traditional line arrays . Science progresses . That's why
Actually in a home audio setting they really don't have any advantages over a straight line array. But they do have some disadvantages. The curved baffle causes further delays in time across the length of the array. So it causes a slight time smear as the arrivals vary more compared to a straight line source. It also limits the coupling of the higher frequency drivers and limits sensitivity.
There also aren't any line sources of that type available, completed or in kit form, that are beyond budget performance levels.
Well now I know what I don't know..!
Have you decided to offer that in a kit yet? If you have our love to buy it
The larger BG Neo 10 mid-drivers are no longer available, and the newer GRS version from Parts-Express hasn't been suitable for this application.
We're looking at possibly an updated version using the Radian LT6 and LM10 but that will require custom versions to match the impedance. We will also need to design a new cabinet that will fit the new drivers, so even at this point we're a year out before we can properly test a first prototype.
Even as a kit, they will be very expensive and will require subwoofers, as they will be limited to 125-150Hz on the low end.
how much could a line array of mid and tweeter cost like the ome in the back?
i have no electronics training at all... i'm a cabinet maker. i really wish i could get my head around this stuff! i'm keen to build my own line source or array speakers. but i simply cannot comprehend this information. i think i need to see it in practice, not theory. it's very frustrating for me not to be able to grasp the technical side of all this... :(
You don't need to !! You're a cabinet maker, get a set of great diy plans and do what you do best, the vendor will supply the drivers and crossovers, boom !! You're done !
What about the price and availability of the Neo 10's..? $370 each on parts-express..
We are working on development of our own Neo 10.
No sound test?!
lol, you guys are aware that what the audio engineer used to mix the album will be a pair of Genelecs in AES EBU most of the time, just cut the "audiophile" bullshit, that is ridiculous.
Please please offer them as a kit also..:)
consider this: talking about frequencies above 15kHz and the useful information carried in those frequencies. really? most people who CAN afford these thing are in the the age of NOT being able to hear anything above 15kHz. even if you CAN hear 18kHz it still does not matter. NOTHING useful at those frequencies. and yet we are talking about so high frequencies. please enlighten us and explain what in the world is the useful information at those frequencies. my personal opinion is that HIFI world are just artificially creating things nobody needs and forgetting the real important things: what's the use of it? do we really need it? or is it just a waste of time and resources.
I have my hearing tested annually and can hear out to 18k. Beyond that my level of hearing drops off fairly quickly. Material in that range adds openness and airiness. I don't think "airiness" is an actual word though. lol Point being, Not all ears are created equal and I am often bothered by the sound of batteries charging or capacitors filling up, so some people can appreciate the upper end of the range. Now speakers that go to 45k are just plain stupid as you would most likely agree. I have no idea what those speakers cost, but given that people I know will have spent $24k on just their cable TV bill over a decade could have put that money towards better speakers if they were so inclined, and I know I spend over $1k/month on hobbies of mine, so I can see one being able to cut some costs and save up 50K within a few years if they wanted to.
Ditto
How in God's earth do you wire that thing ?
Show us DANNY!!! to much sleepy talk, talk, talk. He could tell a good bed side story!!! 😴😴😴
okay take this or what you will. So I know last month I subscribe to this Channel. this month I am not. I'm not mr. tinfoil hat or anyting but something sure seems to be odd here....
What do you mean?
@@Newrecordday2013 All I get when I search for New Record Day is Kirby meets Audio and others within Google. Not with Duck Duck go or other search engines. In fact, I was looking to give the link of the build kit and website, and it does not show up.
Tried with VPN and same thing. In fact through RUclips, I have not been able to even get your videos in the search by keywords.
I may not build speakers for a living. But I do know when somethings a foot with web traffic. Someone has hijacked your keywords on ad-sense if you ask me.
That’s really bizarre, how would that happen?
@@Newrecordday2013 In the past, it was done with loading the algorithm with keywords that would match your channel or website. Say for example you had a product or video named "ACME-1" ; they would then use those keywords to push or move traffic to their videos or website.
So what ends up happening is that content that is you at ACME-1, gets flagged for not being the real video that people are looking for due to traffic going to another video or site.
Its a funny trick you can do with SEO's that will essentially lead to folks like google to redirect traffic from your website, content, or videos to other sites or content.
You can try it yourself by adding "DIY speaker upgrades:" and then add a product name you offer. See what comes up when you do this via VPN so google does not know its you looking it up.
The side affect of this is that RUclips then automatically prunes subs from channels. that they re promoting on their platform.
This came out in the days when Philip Defranco had a meeting with RUclips Years ago as he fell from grace of the platform.
Its just something I noticed and few others who mentioned to me they as well were auto un-subscribed from your channel.
Please tell your subs to click the bell. Its the only way to tell the RUclips search engine that in fact your Viewers are looking for this content and not others.
Just being a good neighbor and pointing out. :-)