After all these years, I still ship Sam and Ainsley so hard... they would have been so awesome as an on-screen couple with their chemistry and banter, lol!
@@paulcolburn3855 He was very smart about that. Look at Josh and Donna. They were the perfect balance. If they got together too soon, it would have ruined the "Will they/Won't they" chemistry, even though so many of us wanted them together. Them getting together right when the show was ending was perfect.
I like that they didn’t. So many shows feel compelled to couple up their male and female characters. It’s refreshing to see this type of chemistry and friendship without an implied romantic undertone.
This was her minor "... and with that, I'm going to ..." scene. She has at least two of them, and she rattled this one off as if it was the last scene of the day.
If you look back I do not think she ever actually had more than a bite out a cupcake if that. It is an amusing character trait. Wonder where it came from.
@@BradyPostma I think the only two characters that should be president if they ever brought back West Wing are Sam and Ainsley (...and the other should be the First Spouse)
So Aaron Sorkin said, later. OTOH, the show had too many people under contract at the best of times (from the production POV), so she was a recurring role until she left for CSI:Miami and a much better situation.
No, Charlie doesn't "own" this scene. He got beat by his little sister in basketball, won't own up to his defeat, and gave a sexist answer to a hypothetical question just to reinforce his masculinity. I didn't understand why Charlie and Zoey split up until this episode. He couldn't let go of his male pride. It showed in the bar that time Secret Service nabbed the college boys, and it showed when Charlie walked out of the diner when Zoey was in the bathroom.
@@partyguy101ify yes what i meant is that i really enjoyed Dule Hills performance and that it's what I remember most abt this scene. I apologise if my comment was unclear abt the statement that i was attempting to make
Yes as long as it's understood that the offensive thing to one person doesn't bound everyone's behavior to be acceptable to that person which is where this usually falls down in real life. Random example being the banning of Ring girls and the like where the ring girls themselves where making good money but the soccer mom side of the equation found there existence offensive and so they had to go, the result being more then one of those girls ended up in porn entirely unnecessarily to spare a minority their feelings being hurt.
When Ainsley said "all women dont think alike" OMG. I worked at a major restauranr for years but when I often said my wife and I dont go out eat in them I was told by female server "your holding her back, all women want to taken out". I replied "you dont speak for women". she said "yes I do"
Ainsley Hayes is a privileged, rich white woman kind of feminist. Only sees women's issues through her own eyes, like when she argued that "I" don't need an equal rights amendment. Well, no, she didn't. But tens of millions of other women might.
I love Ainsley's character. I think all she is saying is that it is OK to comment to a woman about her beauty without taking it as an anti-feminist slur. And, the little things we get involved in distract us from the important things. Do we want to talk about Melania's stiletto shoes, or the chaos in the White House.
As a woman, I don't give a shit about Melania's stilettos, that's between her & her podiatrist and I'm impressed by her sense of balance (I'd read my neck for sure). I do, however, have tremendous issues with a country that would knowingly elect a man as president, who brags about sexually assaulting women, on f**king tape no less. And it has embolden those who think in similar ways to him. I live in the bluest of the blue states and I (and my coworkers) have noticed a sharp uptake in incidents - comments, whether demeaning or dismissive, (I shouldn't need to say things like, "Yes sir, I really am the manager" and "Excuse me sir, but the cashier already refused to go on a date with you, stop asking her"), sexually harassing phone calls. My favorite was the guy my fathers age slowly looking me up and down as he talked about how I was on my knees ..... Putting things on the shelf. We work at a pharmacy and I dress in men's cargo pants and combat boots, for gods sake. Don't get me wrong. I like to dress up and get complimented outside of work, but harassment at work has really escalated since Trump got elected.
+Rikajael - Please don't think I approve of any kind of sexual harassment. I just think a nice compliment to a woman could be OK. I'm 66 years old (Hey, I'm old,but not dead), and sometimes I would like to give a younger woman a compliment. It might just be you are very pretty, or you have a great smile. But I refrain, because it might make me look like a dirty old man.
Rikajael - did you have a problem with the president that seduced interns and cheated on his wife in the oval office? What abut the president that instructed the IRS to target his political enemies? How about the president that ordered the murder of a 15 yr old US citizen??
One person's screw up doesn't make another's OK. Doesn't matter if Rikajael or anyone else is OK with Clinton's behavior. What she's describing is vile sexual harassment. Trump's disgusting pussy grabbing comment isn't made better or worse by Clinton's oral exam with the intern. Nor is it excused by it, as if there's a competition for most misogynistic, sexist president.
No, I think that the point that step5732 is trying to make is that the people who are so livid over a stray bit of crude locker room talk that has quite deliberately been taken out of context (he actually said 'when you're famous they LET you grab them') weren't the ones screaming about the many women that Bill Clinton allegedly assaulted nor Hillary's silencing of them. That the people so aggrieved over Christine Ford's completely unsubstantiated and unsupported allegations - along with those of three other women whom have since admitted that they were lying - didn't said a word in anger over Keith Ellison's abuse of his girlfriend (complete with police report and pictures). When moral outrage is so selective in its application, it becomes pretty clear that its not actually moral outrage, but in truth merely political hypocrisy trying to pass itself off as something else.
I think all the people dissing on sorkin for writing this forget to notice that Sam, when told that he was inappropriate got properly worried that he was creating a hostile environment and asked the persons involved whether they felt uncomfortable... He didnt get rude and problematic, just introspective...
I found his defense to be pretty problematic. The "Charlie says I'm fine" bit was completely unnecessary. Those women DGAF what Charlie thinks. Real introspection wouldn't seek a second opinion to prove he was in the clear
Real introspection always seeks a second opinion because no one who is being introspective is going to get the most right answer from the first person they speak to
I liked her, a real republican that you can like, he made a good argument about the 14th amendment on why women should have a law saying they're equal when they should be in the first place
She did a great job of replacing Mandy's character -- tough and smart, but likeable. And it was nice to have someone to articulate opposing viewpoints. It's too bad that she was sort of forgotten... Sorkin has a tendency to introduce interesting new characters and then forget about them.
Trial of the Chicago 7 “I have no time for cultural revolution it distracts from actual revolution” I discovered a new sorkinism! I’m really quite something.
this show had the best characters, every one was awesome, I was really disappointed to see Rob Lowe leave the show, the dynamic, Lowe ,Janey, Schiff, Whitford shared was fantastic, and Emily Procter's acting well, it was damn good enough to make a good dog break its leash 😀
Yeah, the show does have a worrying trend of chauvinism, especially with Sam. He has a fixation on white knighting - the escort in the first season, standing up for Ainsley when she didn't want him too etc.
Boy oh boy, how relevant this is TODAY!!! The West Wing should be watched by everybody now, so that idiots can stop mouthing off about random things and learn what a decent civilisation is all about!
Its ironic how far we've drifted as a country in so short a time. At the time the West Wing came out it was labeled a 'liberal fantasy', and now, quite recently, an informal poll was done which revealed that a President like Bartlett would receive far more conservative support than he would liberal. Think about it - a deeply religious Christian President who's lone specialty was economics? Not too many Democrats running around like that, and certainly none who would be elected today.
@@storyarcher8125 - Bartlett was a good man, er... person. No too many politicians running around like that. I'm a conservative, and I 'd probably vote for him. And if I had the chance, I'd vote for Matt Santos.
@@conorcorrigan765 Conor, he'd either *be* a Republican or the far left would accuse him of being a republican, sort of the way they do was far too many decent moderate to moderately liberal Democrats these days. The far left seems to think that anyone to the right of Mao is a raging conservative.
IMHO, the important thing is that he acknowledged what she was saying. That Ainsley, as a person in a quite similar position, said she shouldn't get her knickers in a twist helped, too. By the way, what would be a better turn of phrase for "getting her knickers in a twist," here? I could only think of "grow a pair" but that seems worse.
In many ways, the culture is set up so that sexist and demeaning comments and actions are MEANT to be derogatory. The difference between the person making an innocent statement and making a demeaning comment for the purpose of being demeaning is entirely invisible. The point with making the rules very restrictive in regards to what is said and done is that it changes the culture. The person who is thinking it learns that it is NOT appropriate in all situations, and that a comment of that nature can be harmful to others. The rules ALSO make those comments harmful to ones own self, because some people only learn through personal pain. In your group of friends, everyone can understand that your actions and words are meant in jest, and that you are not actually sexist/racist. There's a level of subtext created by those relationships where the rules of polite society may not be as strictly enforced. The converse is that you may, actually be sexist/racist, but you don't face any consequences from your friends, so "it's okay"/"it's just boys being boys"/fill in your favorite excuse here. We're watching a political movement today that has decided that the rules that were fought over regarding racial and sexual discrimination can be thrown out. We're ALSO watching overt attempts to strip women and minorities of their rights as a direct consequence. Why? Because it's OKAY to say it. Rather, there's no penalty/punishment for saying it. The rules of communication you have in your team and among your friends are not the same rules you have for every stranger. Nor should they. Don't let those two sets of rules mix.
The problem with attractiveness is that it really is only useful for one thing, and that is to look at. It has no value in deciding how smart, kind, cruel, strong, empathetic, socially or economically useful a person may be, but for whatever reason humans as a generalisation place more value on it than what there should be, and that is not withstanding the entire eye of the beholder discussion or that there is some correlation between looks and some diseases that used to be problematic in the past but not so much at least in first world countries.
On the contrary, that one thing determines how smart, kind, cruel, strong, empathetic, and useful one appears to be. People are more shallow than you admit.
As a dude? For the record? I think what Sam said was well-intended. But went a little too far in a workplace. Though If he was talking to a friend outside of work? Fine. Though it makes him sound like he is not very experienced/subtle at complimenting women to their faces. But I still love Ainsley's speech on the matter. ☮
Whenever I watch this scene I remember how in High School I was afraid to let my female friends know I found them attractive because I thought it would make me seem sexist. I'm glad I know better now.
The way I see it, it isn't hard at all to compliment women in a way that makes them feel good about themselves, compared to a way that makes them feel objectified and sexualised. It really isn't. If someone finds it difficult? Thats a personal flaw for them to deal with. Anyone that finds women reacting badly to their comments needs to look at themselves, not society. Because most people don't have that issue. People are different, and sometimes you can make a misjudgment and make a comment that provokes offense when you meant nothing of the sort. The difference, as far as I can, is that when you do that, you need to own that mistake, not get all arsy about feminism or get "Offended that you'd be offended". You don't get to tell someone what they should or should not find offensive, or dictate to them how they need to respond. If you don't know in advance how it'll be perceived, make a gamble and miss, then you're still the moron who messed up, by gambling on something that important. I know my female friends well enough to know their sense of humour. I know which ones I'd say what to. Thats called being courteous. Its called knowing your audience. And that is what makes you a sexist: When you have in your mind the way a woman ought to behave and become irate when they don't conform to your expectations. A sexist doesn't care what the woman thinks, because *their* opinion is the one that matters. A normal person caters their comments to what they know a woman thinks. If someone else doesn't... that's their problem to deal with. And you don't get a pass for being mistaken. You're not necessarily a sexist, but you're still a thoughtless idiot who doesn't know your friends as well as you ought to. You're still a dick.
@@benlowe1701 Lol. You went hard on this guy! It really isn’t a hard concept. If you want a friend to know you think she’s beautiful say, “You look beautiful.” One time is enough. If you make a point to say it daily and y’all aren’t in a relationship then it becomes creepy. If you want a relationship then just ask for a date. If she says no then move on.
Women have no interest in being told they're attractive; that's why they dress the way they do. And spend the $$ on their hair the way they do. And hang out in places where men will see them the way they do. And compete with one another for a males attention the way they do. Of course, men do this too in reverse. Same idea though. We're attracted to each other. Remember junior high? Just like that. Imagine that.
The thing is how to let them know or whether to let them know. Unless it comes up it's better to leave it at not making a secret out of it, but bringing it up if the situation isn't fitting is kinda the heart of this issue. I myself decided a few years ago to not torture myself by hiding being attracted to people. If they see me checking them out, so be it, but I do it in a way that isn't overbearing (I hope, personal feelings are just that, personal).
Seems to me in this clip one side of feminism is obsessed with power while the other isn't, and I'm sorry but I just can't trust anyone obsessed with power.
Lol! Desire for power is expected and admired in men; if a woman has the same aspirations--C suite, crew chief, White House--she's criticized for her ambition. And if a woman mentions gender pay-gap or glass ceiling, she's a malcontent. 😂
@@patmaurer8541 You think the term power hungry is a compliment when referring to a man? What world are you living in that you think a desire for power is something society considers admirable in men when there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of books, films, shows, games and all other forms of literature where the desire for power is one of the defining traits of the villain, not the hero.
@RandomCarrot2806 The only difference is that a "hero" gains power through means accepted as moral or just. It's still dominance, control, the ability to shape circumstances; in other words--power.
@@patmaurer8541 Maybe if you are an ideologue obsessed with power who thinks everything comes down to power. But even then, it still refutes your point that the pursuit of power is socially accepted for men but not for women. Anyone regardless of sex or gender who pursues power for powers sake is seen as untrustworthy and a potential tyrant. It is neither expected, nor admired in men. And you know what the fastest way to get labeled as power hungry is? It's by publicly displaying your obsession with power. What is admired is ambition towards goals, be it as simple as providing for your family to more complex like solving societal issues like poverty, environmental problems, energy etc.
You're telling me this show has Gee Buttersnaps/Gus/ I-can-fix-that Sam - Dulé Hill and happy times, first man to live to 150, vegan dabbler, microchip health system, Chris Traeger - Rob Lowe??
I love Emily Proctor and Ainsely Hayes is a phenomenally well-written and well-realized character. Nowadays the big feminist issues seem to be 'man-spreading' and how women are drawn in comic books... actual feminism has run its course and achieved its goals, while modern feminism seems to be pretty much about manufactured outrage and elevating women to a protected class - when its not about avenging itself on all men today for slights that happened decades if not centuries ago.
Just so we're clear, women have equal pay, equal hiring for the same job and sexism discrimination and harassment has ceased? Wow.. well them feminism has done mission accomplished then...
Just if you are curious I think the reason why these issues are important to women is that it symbolises how we are seen in society. While it is less of an issue than getting the vote I still think how women are perceived is important to feminism. I don't want to be antagonising I'm just sharing what it means to me.
I don't disagree necessarily, I just read a great deal of Feminist rhetoric and it is most definitely not the Feminism of the past. One thing that is important to remember is that there are different ways of 'seeing women', different ways that women themselves wish to be seen, and modern feminism is absolutely brutal in the ways that it attacks women who do not agree with its goals or methods, much as the other liberal groups brutalize black or gay conservative voices. Speaking for me personally (rather than in support of some national policy), I believe strongly in the 'double standard', in the fact that men and women are very different biologically, emotionally and mentally... I believe that the two are not only equal in value but that each is absolutely crucial to our society as a whole, that we are naturally complimentary and only come into conflict when we reject that complimentary nature in the misguided pursuit of 'sameness'. I believe in women and children first, in holding doors open and giving up your seat, in men never hitting women (even when struck or provoked), etc. I'm fine with men getting the dirtiest and most dangerous jobs and dying by the thousands if not millions on the battlefield (I'm a veteran myself)... I'm fine with it because I believe that the contributions women make to our society, that the sacrifices and hardships that they endure are every bit as significant, even if they take different forms. Its only when I hear how bad women have it in a society that has literally elevated them to a protected class that I feel compelled to point out the many inequities that go the other way. Legally speaking, at the end of the day I believe that laws should be written for Americans and applied to Americans equally, not that a variety of special groups should get special laws that only serve to 1) divide us quite deliberately by race, class and sex and 2) create less freedom by having the government define us as groups rather than allowing us to define ourselves as individuals.
@@peterwhite7735 sexual harassment does still happen but when it does its treated as it should, with outrage, not as a non issue. Sexual discrimination has now been replaced with filling quotas which puts women in jobs. Also the dumbass equal pay thing was solved years ago, alot of issues have been fixed and some things still remain but in general feminism did its job, what we have now is an alagamation of feminism and something else which is certainly not about equality
Innocent flirting is one of the most fun things that exists between the two sexes. ( I strongly emphasize the innocent part) Feminism has reduced this (innocent flirting) to a smoking ruin. It's really a damn shame. Just sayin'......
I wonder if she would have the same world view nowadays. This character states she felt the 14th amendment made the ERA amendment unnecessary because it mentions Equal protection under law. Twenty five years ago, I was her. (without the full throated 2nd amendment support Ainsley has). Nowadays, I've found myself becoming more Center/Right/Center in my governing/social/economic/environmental world view. I've always wondered if this character would've done the same.
Charlie Young - you cannot walk! Nope. Not on ice. Me I mean. I am lousy walking on ice. But hope I am not too lousy. A thing called Cadence. Steal more from Camelot. Why don't you? Allegedly.
These days men are so afraid of actually engaging in a conversation that could lead to a actual date,that they give up all together.It’s amazing how many men in their 20s would rather be alone than having a steady girlfriend.I couldn’t even imagine that when I was in my 20s or my 30s.Everyone is so sensitive about being offended,that they don’t even realize the importance of human connections.Now there’s this whole situation of people living alone without a partner and the sadness that comes with it.
I seem to be a confused male. I really don't know who here that I am agreeing with more, or should be. Should all allegations be investigated.. yes. Should every allegation be taken as a court decision... no. WW had a very prescient bent to issues, it predated #metoo, but I do not mean that it embraced the conflation that 'just alleging something = guilty'
Sam is too smart, experienced, and sophisticated to make the remark discussed at the beginning of this video. While I liked Ainsley's intelligence and rapidfire responses, I tired quickly of her lipstick feminism. She loved playing with "the boys" but never helped any of the women.
No, but it's also clear that the writer is unaware of the shit women have to put up with. Can I imagine a woman saying exactly what she said in the workplace? Absolutely, I've been part of these conversations. But it's also very different when you have some banter between friendly co-workers, and when a creep is objectifying you, or you get sexual comments from a man who is in power. I've known a lot of women who are sex positive, and love to joke around about sexuality...but were also sexually harassed. That's the problem with these types of criticisms...they're valid...within a limited context, but if you don't specify that there is still a line that can be crossed, it just creates an expectation that sexual harassment is just someone going a bit too far rather than hurtful actions. Beyond that it also diminishes the feelings of others who aren't OK with the sexual banter, the expectation is that because a woman is OK with it all women should be OK with it. The other is that because she's OK with it, or at least says she is; has never had a negative experience. Most women I know have, and just learned to deal with it. To me, that's not OK. The men clearly know that this isn't OK, but due to the "strictures of manhood" they have to support each other. Charlie clearly feels like his masculinity is in danger for supporting a woman who was offended by a comment. Who puffs out their chest and say "damn right" when someone says that they're a man? Someone who feels endangered of being emasculated.
I agree with Ainsley's argument, but it seems unlikely coming from someone who is canonically a member of the Federalist Society. I can't believe she would actually support such an expansive interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment.
I liked her character...she left way too soon before someone could get her straight on the history of the 14th amendment and how it wouldn't protect her (or a lot of people).
I don't really care if the line is insulting moreso that it just sounds stupid as hell. Just say she looks hot or pretty or something. Imagine that being the hill you die on. Embarrassing.
It's curious how interns in _West Wing_ think they can spout off to senior staff without getting fired on the spot. Sorkin has this mindset where a character can get away with anything as long as she's female.
god this scene was so stupid aaron sorkin: i, a man, will write this brilliant scene where i tell everyone how i think women should act and people will call me a brave feminist
And most of the commenters, as has been depressing demonstrated, will fall in line. Cos if it's all about women's choices, nothing fundamental has to change and if it goes wrong they take the blame. So convenient, isn't it?
I used to think that west wing was one of the better informed shows back then, but 2 episodes made me gave up the show. In one ep, there was discussion about providing anti-viral Aids drugs to Africa and one of the bombshell argument against it was that African's couldn't tell the time cause they had no watches..... And another was the claim the Pakistan president would be insulted to meet a women politician because of their religious beliefs...
Ainsley was her own woman and close to being the smartest person in the room. That is why you are envious and rubbed the wrong way. You can’t/couldn’t compete with her.
@@memoriesofdaysgoneby2348 lol what? She’s a fictional character… and I would’ve liked her if she was actually her own person, rather than being barely in disagreement with ANYTHING liberals believe!
Of course she is fictional (duh) but you criticized he because she is superior to you, like the Liberals she educated on the show. At least you are consistent, Ms LSJ.
I can't decide if I like Charlie's "damn right" or "hello" better.
I prefer his "hello".
What episode is this in
Luke Thompson Night Five (Season 3 Episode 13)
I love Charlie so damn much...
The hello is just so rightly spoken at that moment
After all these years, I still ship Sam and Ainsley so hard... they would have been so awesome as an on-screen couple with their chemistry and banter, lol!
She was his "work wife." In that sense alone they were an on-screen couple. Sorkin did not want any romance on this show.
@@paulcolburn3855 He was very smart about that. Look at Josh and Donna. They were the perfect balance. If they got together too soon, it would have ruined the "Will they/Won't they" chemistry, even though so many of us wanted them together. Them getting together right when the show was ending was perfect.
@@Bayougirl78 a good "work wife" can make a man (at least make him at work.)
I totally disagree ....but i would still watch it
I like that they didn’t. So many shows feel compelled to couple up their male and female characters. It’s refreshing to see this type of chemistry and friendship without an implied romantic undertone.
“With that I’m going to get a cupcake.”
She was my favorite. If they ever do a revival, they need to get her back!
This was her minor "... and with that, I'm going to ..." scene. She has at least two of them, and she rattled this one off as if it was the last scene of the day.
What about... _President Ainsley Hayes?_ Eh? Eeeeeeh?
If you look back I do not think she ever actually had more than a bite out a cupcake if that. It is an amusing character trait. Wonder where it came from.
@@BradyPostma
I think the only two characters that should be president if they ever brought back West Wing are Sam and Ainsley (...and the other should be the First Spouse)
@@YankeeBlues21 I don't hate that idea.
they messed up big time when he didn't put her under contract for the show.
So Aaron Sorkin said, later. OTOH, the show had too many people under contract at the best of times (from the production POV), so she was a recurring role until she left for CSI:Miami and a much better situation.
Charlie owns this scene lol
No, Charlie doesn't "own" this scene. He got beat by his little sister in basketball, won't own up to his defeat, and gave a sexist answer to a hypothetical question just to reinforce his masculinity. I didn't understand why Charlie and Zoey split up until this episode.
He couldn't let go of his male pride. It showed in the bar that time Secret Service nabbed the college boys, and it showed when Charlie walked out of the diner when Zoey was in the bathroom.
@@partyguy101ify yes what i meant is that i really enjoyed Dule Hills performance and that it's what I remember most abt this scene. I apologise if my comment was unclear abt the statement that i was attempting to make
@@pranayvenkatesh8815 don't apologize to stoopid pheminists
@@chaos_divided pot, meet kettle?
@@partyguy101ify this is…a very uncharitable interpretation I feel.
It’s a well constructed argument though, I won’t deny that.
What she's basically saying that each woman can decide for themselves what's offensive to them. Sounds pretty reasonable
Yes as long as it's understood that the offensive thing to one person doesn't bound everyone's behavior to be acceptable to that person which is where this usually falls down in real life. Random example being the banning of Ring girls and the like where the ring girls themselves where making good money but the soccer mom side of the equation found there existence offensive and so they had to go, the result being more then one of those girls ended up in porn entirely unnecessarily to spare a minority their feelings being hurt.
How dare you suggest such a radical idea. You're going to get cancelled now.
Then why have laws? And is it a decision or years of social training? Bet you feel pretty silly right about now...
@@msp5138 please explain further.
Great now apply that in real life and see how that goes.. for a man
When Ainsley said "all women dont think alike" OMG. I worked at a major restauranr for years but when I often said my wife and I dont go out eat in them I was told by female server "your holding her back, all women want to taken out". I replied "you dont speak for women". she said "yes I do"
Leave a dollar tip. And a wink.
@@davidowens5898 Leave a penny and send a clear message.
I'm sure she & her cat will be very happy together.
There are lots of ways to be a feminist. I love Ainsley. She’s the best
Ainsley Hayes is a privileged, rich white woman kind of feminist. Only sees women's issues through her own eyes, like when she argued that "I" don't need an equal rights amendment. Well, no, she didn't. But tens of millions of other women might.
I may have died....(from laughter, of course)
Charlie's "Hello!" I died.
I love Ainsley's character. I think all she is saying is that it is OK to comment to a woman about her beauty without taking it as an anti-feminist slur. And, the little things we get involved in distract us from the important things. Do we want to talk about Melania's stiletto shoes, or the chaos in the White House.
As a woman, I don't give a shit about Melania's stilettos, that's between her & her podiatrist and I'm impressed by her sense of balance (I'd read my neck for sure). I do, however, have tremendous issues with a country that would knowingly elect a man as president, who brags about sexually assaulting women, on f**king tape no less. And it has embolden those who think in similar ways to him. I live in the bluest of the blue states and I (and my coworkers) have noticed a sharp uptake in incidents - comments, whether demeaning or dismissive, (I shouldn't need to say things like, "Yes sir, I really am the manager" and "Excuse me sir, but the cashier already refused to go on a date with you, stop asking her"), sexually harassing phone calls. My favorite was the guy my fathers age slowly looking me up and down as he talked about how I was on my knees ..... Putting things on the shelf. We work at a pharmacy and I dress in men's cargo pants and combat boots, for gods sake. Don't get me wrong. I like to dress up and get complimented outside of work, but harassment at work has really escalated since Trump got elected.
+Rikajael - Please don't think I approve of any kind of sexual harassment. I just think a nice compliment to a woman could be OK. I'm 66 years old (Hey, I'm old,but not dead), and sometimes I would like to give a younger woman a compliment. It might just be you are very pretty, or you have a great smile. But I refrain, because it might make me look like a dirty old man.
Rikajael - did you have a problem with the president that seduced interns and cheated on his wife in the oval office? What abut the president that instructed the IRS to target his political enemies? How about the president that ordered the murder of a 15 yr old US citizen??
One person's screw up doesn't make another's OK. Doesn't matter if Rikajael or anyone else is OK with Clinton's behavior. What she's describing is vile sexual harassment. Trump's disgusting pussy grabbing comment isn't made better or worse by Clinton's oral exam with the intern. Nor is it excused by it, as if there's a competition for most misogynistic, sexist president.
No, I think that the point that step5732 is trying to make is that the people who are so livid over a stray bit of crude locker room talk that has quite deliberately been taken out of context (he actually said 'when you're famous they LET you grab them') weren't the ones screaming about the many women that Bill Clinton allegedly assaulted nor Hillary's silencing of them. That the people so aggrieved over Christine Ford's completely unsubstantiated and unsupported allegations - along with those of three other women whom have since admitted that they were lying - didn't said a word in anger over Keith Ellison's abuse of his girlfriend (complete with police report and pictures). When moral outrage is so selective in its application, it becomes pretty clear that its not actually moral outrage, but in truth merely political hypocrisy trying to pass itself off as something else.
“Charlie’s a man.”
“Damn right!”
😂
I think all the people dissing on sorkin for writing this forget to notice that Sam, when told that he was inappropriate got properly worried that he was creating a hostile environment and asked the persons involved whether they felt uncomfortable... He didnt get rude and problematic, just introspective...
I found his defense to be pretty problematic. The "Charlie says I'm fine" bit was completely unnecessary. Those women DGAF what Charlie thinks. Real introspection wouldn't seek a second opinion to prove he was in the clear
Real introspection always seeks a second opinion because no one who is being introspective is going to get the most right answer from the first person they speak to
Don't know why her character disappeared... She was funny, pretty and very very smart. And more than able to go head-to-head with the staff.
She took the full time gig with CSI:Miami
I liked her, a real republican that you can like, he made a good argument about the 14th amendment on why women should have a law saying they're equal when they should be in the first place
She did a great job of replacing Mandy's character -- tough and smart, but likeable. And it was nice to have someone to articulate opposing viewpoints. It's too bad that she was sort of forgotten... Sorkin has a tendency to introduce interesting new characters and then forget about them.
@@ariochiv Or he gets great actors that then get better jobs so he has to vanish them.
She didn’t get a full time contract,and a better offer CSI
Arguably my favourite The West Wing scene. Ginger and Bonnie - Hello! - I am all man! - You're are not in enough trouble? Yup. My favourite.
1:21 that "I'm sorry?" is perfect
That's my girl! I love Ainsley and i definitely love Emily!
If they ever bring this back and Ainsley isn't chief White House Council, we will riot.
The Kirby T I would just want it back.
And thus Burton Guster was born with that "hello"
Trial of the Chicago 7
“I have no time for cultural revolution it distracts from actual revolution”
I discovered a new sorkinism!
I’m really quite something.
this show had the best characters, every one was awesome, I was really disappointed to see Rob Lowe leave the show, the dynamic, Lowe ,Janey, Schiff, Whitford shared was fantastic, and Emily Procter's acting well, it was damn good enough to make a good dog break its leash 😀
My Favourite "Hello!" Charles Young.
Another brilliant scene in soooooooooooo many of them.
"Well, for the moment at least, I'm going to do what she's telling me to do."
Best TV show EVER. Every episode had moments of absolute writing brilliance like that.
'The Wire'. BEST TV series EVER. Hands down. W/W? Excellent show. But not as good as The Wire.
@@davidowens5898 Nah, bog standard cop show. Same thing different skin
I want to Ainsley Hayes when I grow up!
Same
I also want to Ainsley Hayes
It’s a shame she got fat.
Ainsley was an awesome character.
This is one of those scenes where a writer transparently creates a strawman one-off character to win an argument he lost years ago.
you just described aaron sorkin's career
Oof. Right? "I was just trying to give her a compliment by totally sexualizing her in the workplace in front of her coworkers. Women, amirite?"
If one amends that the situation looks like he lost the discussion against strawman arguments? Might be.
Yeah, the show does have a worrying trend of chauvinism, especially with Sam. He has a fixation on white knighting - the escort in the first season, standing up for Ainsley when she didn't want him too etc.
@@rudolphclancy8293 standing up for Ainsley wasn't white knighting
Boy oh boy, how relevant this is TODAY!!! The West Wing should be watched by everybody now, so that idiots can stop mouthing off about random things and learn what a decent civilisation is all about!
West Wing = Awesome
Its ironic how far we've drifted as a country in so short a time. At the time the West Wing came out it was labeled a 'liberal fantasy', and now, quite recently, an informal poll was done which revealed that a President like Bartlett would receive far more conservative support than he would liberal. Think about it - a deeply religious Christian President who's lone specialty was economics? Not too many Democrats running around like that, and certainly none who would be elected today.
@@storyarcher8125 - Bartlett was a good man, er... person. No too many politicians running around like that. I'm a conservative, and I 'd probably vote for him. And if I had the chance, I'd vote for Matt Santos.
Let's not kid ourselves, Bartlet would be a Republican today...
@@conorcorrigan765 Conor, he'd either *be* a Republican or the far left would accuse him of being a republican, sort of the way they do was far too many decent moderate to moderately liberal Democrats these days. The far left seems to think that anyone to the right of Mao is a raging conservative.
what an amazing character. Ainsely should've become a series regular. She earned it.
Charlies damn right 1:06 and his hello 1:46
What eps is this.. I feel like I need to see the whole eps.. or at least more scenes .. like where Sam compliments Ainsley
Season 3 episode 14
It about 15 mins in
..Great 🎞📽🎬television series 👈👈
"girls varsity" said the guy who was the recording secretary of the Gilbert & Sullivan Society at college
So true. Gots to focus on the real issues.
One of my fave scenes & reasons ainsley was my fave
When she says "I like sex!", Charlie's "Hello!" cracks me up every time, lol!
IMHO, the important thing is that he acknowledged what she was saying. That Ainsley, as a person in a quite similar position, said she shouldn't get her knickers in a twist helped, too.
By the way, what would be a better turn of phrase for "getting her knickers in a twist," here? I could only think of "grow a pair" but that seems worse.
In many ways, the culture is set up so that sexist and demeaning comments and actions are MEANT to be derogatory. The difference between the person making an innocent statement and making a demeaning comment for the purpose of being demeaning is entirely invisible.
The point with making the rules very restrictive in regards to what is said and done is that it changes the culture. The person who is thinking it learns that it is NOT appropriate in all situations, and that a comment of that nature can be harmful to others. The rules ALSO make those comments harmful to ones own self, because some people only learn through personal pain.
In your group of friends, everyone can understand that your actions and words are meant in jest, and that you are not actually sexist/racist. There's a level of subtext created by those relationships where the rules of polite society may not be as strictly enforced.
The converse is that you may, actually be sexist/racist, but you don't face any consequences from your friends, so "it's okay"/"it's just boys being boys"/fill in your favorite excuse here.
We're watching a political movement today that has decided that the rules that were fought over regarding racial and sexual discrimination can be thrown out. We're ALSO watching overt attempts to strip women and minorities of their rights as a direct consequence. Why?
Because it's OKAY to say it. Rather, there's no penalty/punishment for saying it.
The rules of communication you have in your team and among your friends are not the same rules you have for every stranger. Nor should they.
Don't let those two sets of rules mix.
Rob Lowe a great piece of man Candy and he still looks good today. Yummy.
Hello lol
The problem with attractiveness is that it really is only useful for one thing, and that is to look at.
It has no value in deciding how smart, kind, cruel, strong, empathetic, socially or economically useful a person may be, but for whatever reason humans as a generalisation place more value on it than what there should be, and that is not withstanding the entire eye of the beholder discussion or that there is some correlation between looks and some diseases that used to be problematic in the past but not so much at least in first world countries.
Meta-analysis studies prove this: Halo Effect
That "one thing"is helluva important.
On the contrary, that one thing determines how smart, kind, cruel, strong, empathetic, and useful one appears to be. People are more shallow than you admit.
@@thuglifebear5256 'appearing' is merely a division of actually: 'being'
@@jackbrady9738 Thanks. I was beginning to doubt my sanity with the other persons response.
“And, what kind of feminism do you call that?”
“My kind.”
BOOM!!!
Not feminism in other words. No boom, just a floppy squelch.
Ainsley was my favorite character. So quirky.
I usually hold doors open for ladies. One lady got pissed and said she had enough strength to open the door herself. Honestly confused ever since.
Nice to hear what Aaron Sorkin thinks about the women of it all
What's with the generalisation? Assuming in bad faith is even worse than assuming.
Charlie wakes up @1:45 🤣🤣🤣
I feel like anybody could get a date with Ainsley if they happen to have a cupcake or some cookies
If coincidentally they could talk wonkish politics at a hundred words a minute, that would create a serious danger of wedding bells.
Or a peach.
No, you’d have to try harder…by getting her a Fresca too…
"...make a dog break his leash..."
That sounds, um, "southern?" Ish?
This scene is classic.
Is that Rob Lowe?! I never knew he was in this!
As a dude? For the record?
I think what Sam said was well-intended.
But went a little too far in a workplace.
Though If he was talking to a friend outside of work?
Fine.
Though it makes him sound like he is not very experienced/subtle at complimenting women to their faces.
But I still love Ainsley's speech on the matter.
☮
Whenever I watch this scene I remember how in High School I was afraid to let my female friends know I found them attractive because I thought it would make me seem sexist. I'm glad I know better now.
The way I see it, it isn't hard at all to compliment women in a way that makes them feel good about themselves, compared to a way that makes them feel objectified and sexualised. It really isn't. If someone finds it difficult? Thats a personal flaw for them to deal with. Anyone that finds women reacting badly to their comments needs to look at themselves, not society. Because most people don't have that issue.
People are different, and sometimes you can make a misjudgment and make a comment that provokes offense when you meant nothing of the sort.
The difference, as far as I can, is that when you do that, you need to own that mistake, not get all arsy about feminism or get "Offended that you'd be offended". You don't get to tell someone what they should or should not find offensive, or dictate to them how they need to respond. If you don't know in advance how it'll be perceived, make a gamble and miss, then you're still the moron who messed up, by gambling on something that important.
I know my female friends well enough to know their sense of humour. I know which ones I'd say what to. Thats called being courteous. Its called knowing your audience. And that is what makes you a sexist: When you have in your mind the way a woman ought to behave and become irate when they don't conform to your expectations. A sexist doesn't care what the woman thinks, because *their* opinion is the one that matters. A normal person caters their comments to what they know a woman thinks.
If someone else doesn't... that's their problem to deal with. And you don't get a pass for being mistaken. You're not necessarily a sexist, but you're still a thoughtless idiot who doesn't know your friends as well as you ought to. You're still a dick.
@@benlowe1701 Lol. You went hard on this guy!
It really isn’t a hard concept. If you want a friend to know you think she’s beautiful say, “You look beautiful.” One time is enough. If you make a point to say it daily and y’all aren’t in a relationship then it becomes creepy. If you want a relationship then just ask for a date. If she says no then move on.
@@benlowe1701 The main difference is how attractive the "complimenter" is. That's about 90% of the equation, the rest being mostly smoothness.
Women have no interest in being told they're attractive; that's why they dress the way they do. And spend the $$ on their hair the way they do. And hang out in places where men will see them the way they do. And compete with one another for a males attention the way they do. Of course, men do this too in reverse. Same idea though. We're attracted to each other. Remember junior high? Just like that. Imagine that.
The thing is how to let them know or whether to let them know. Unless it comes up it's better to leave it at not making a secret out of it, but bringing it up if the situation isn't fitting is kinda the heart of this issue.
I myself decided a few years ago to not torture myself by hiding being attracted to people. If they see me checking them out, so be it, but I do it in a way that isn't overbearing (I hope, personal feelings are just that, personal).
You? I don't know what your thing is.
Seems to me in this clip one side of feminism is obsessed with power while the other isn't, and I'm sorry but I just can't trust anyone obsessed with power.
Lol! Desire for power is expected and admired in men; if a woman has the same aspirations--C suite, crew chief, White House--she's criticized for her ambition. And if a woman mentions gender pay-gap or glass ceiling, she's a malcontent. 😂
@@patmaurer8541 You think the term power hungry is a compliment when referring to a man? What world are you living in that you think a desire for power is something society considers admirable in men when there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of books, films, shows, games and all other forms of literature where the desire for power is one of the defining traits of the villain, not the hero.
@RandomCarrot2806 The only difference is that a "hero" gains power through means accepted as moral or just. It's still dominance, control, the ability to shape circumstances; in other words--power.
@@patmaurer8541 Maybe if you are an ideologue obsessed with power who thinks everything comes down to power.
But even then, it still refutes your point that the pursuit of power is socially accepted for men but not for women. Anyone regardless of sex or gender who pursues power for powers sake is seen as untrustworthy and a potential tyrant. It is neither expected, nor admired in men. And you know what the fastest way to get labeled as power hungry is? It's by publicly displaying your obsession with power.
What is admired is ambition towards goals, be it as simple as providing for your family to more complex like solving societal issues like poverty, environmental problems, energy etc.
@@patmaurer8541 if that's what you think then you must have never read or watched anything and been entertained
Hello…
You're telling me this show has Gee Buttersnaps/Gus/ I-can-fix-that Sam - Dulé Hill and happy times, first man to live to 150, vegan dabbler, microchip health system, Chris Traeger - Rob Lowe??
What Episode?
S3•E14: Night Five
Sorkin should do a mini series revival of west wing with president Sam seaborne and VP Ainsley hayes.
this is a funny scene
Celia? I got nothing. Musically I mean.
Celia, honey, you're a staffer. You have no power. You're a government functionary.
I love Emily Proctor and Ainsely Hayes is a phenomenally well-written and well-realized character. Nowadays the big feminist issues seem to be 'man-spreading' and how women are drawn in comic books... actual feminism has run its course and achieved its goals, while modern feminism seems to be pretty much about manufactured outrage and elevating women to a protected class - when its not about avenging itself on all men today for slights that happened decades if not centuries ago.
Just so we're clear, women have equal pay, equal hiring for the same job and sexism discrimination and harassment has ceased? Wow.. well them feminism has done mission accomplished then...
Just if you are curious I think the reason why these issues are important to women is that it symbolises how we are seen in society. While it is less of an issue than getting the vote I still think how women are perceived is important to feminism. I don't want to be antagonising I'm just sharing what it means to me.
I don't disagree necessarily, I just read a great deal of Feminist rhetoric and it is most definitely not the Feminism of the past. One thing that is important to remember is that there are different ways of 'seeing women', different ways that women themselves wish to be seen, and modern feminism is absolutely brutal in the ways that it attacks women who do not agree with its goals or methods, much as the other liberal groups brutalize black or gay conservative voices. Speaking for me personally (rather than in support of some national policy), I believe strongly in the 'double standard', in the fact that men and women are very different biologically, emotionally and mentally... I believe that the two are not only equal in value but that each is absolutely crucial to our society as a whole, that we are naturally complimentary and only come into conflict when we reject that complimentary nature in the misguided pursuit of 'sameness'. I believe in women and children first, in holding doors open and giving up your seat, in men never hitting women (even when struck or provoked), etc. I'm fine with men getting the dirtiest and most dangerous jobs and dying by the thousands if not millions on the battlefield (I'm a veteran myself)... I'm fine with it because I believe that the contributions women make to our society, that the sacrifices and hardships that they endure are every bit as significant, even if they take different forms. Its only when I hear how bad women have it in a society that has literally elevated them to a protected class that I feel compelled to point out the many inequities that go the other way. Legally speaking, at the end of the day I believe that laws should be written for Americans and applied to Americans equally, not that a variety of special groups should get special laws that only serve to 1) divide us quite deliberately by race, class and sex and 2) create less freedom by having the government define us as groups rather than allowing us to define ourselves as individuals.
@@peterwhite7735 sexual harassment does still happen but when it does its treated as it should, with outrage, not as a non issue. Sexual discrimination has now been replaced with filling quotas which puts women in jobs. Also the dumbass equal pay thing was solved years ago, alot of issues have been fixed and some things still remain but in general feminism did its job, what we have now is an alagamation of feminism and something else which is certainly not about equality
Fast forward to 2022: it hasn’t achieved its goals if women can’t choose the size of their families or have basic bodily autonomy.
Innocent flirting is one of the most fun things that exists between the two sexes. ( I strongly emphasize the innocent part) Feminism has reduced this (innocent flirting) to a smoking ruin. It's really a damn shame. Just sayin'......
HELLO
I wonder if she would have the same world view nowadays. This character states she felt the 14th amendment made the ERA amendment unnecessary because it mentions Equal protection under law. Twenty five years ago, I was her. (without the full throated 2nd amendment support Ainsley has). Nowadays, I've found myself becoming more Center/Right/Center in my governing/social/economic/environmental world view. I've always wondered if this character would've done the same.
Too cool.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
your not in enough trouble already?
my responce: Hey if im going to be in a hole. making it deeper isnt going to make things any worse
By that argument an addict feeling the monkey could just sate his addiction.
Ainsley was fucking gorgeous 😍
Now she's aged and having babies
amen ....
Yeah...I like her.
Lauren Mancini
I wish she stayed in west longer
Sad he backed down.
Based
“And then the whole room clapped”
Charlie Young - you cannot walk!
Nope. Not on ice. Me I mean. I am lousy walking on ice. But hope I am not too lousy.
A thing called Cadence. Steal more from Camelot. Why don't you? Allegedly.
These days men are so afraid of actually engaging in a conversation that could lead to a actual date,that they give up all together.It’s amazing how many men in their 20s would rather be alone than having a steady girlfriend.I couldn’t even imagine that when I was in my 20s or my 30s.Everyone is so sensitive about being offended,that they don’t even realize the importance of human connections.Now there’s this whole situation of people living alone without a partner and the sadness that comes with it.
the amount of flirting and sexual banter in the work place on this show would have gotten in canceled in 2020. :(.
You left out the punchline!
Charlie hello lol
Listen, I can tell you’re down in the dumps but let’s talk about me.
God how I wish Ms. Hayes was an accurate depiction of the _typical_ Republican.
I seem to be a confused male. I really don't know who here that I am agreeing with more, or should be.
Should all allegations be investigated.. yes. Should every allegation be taken as a court decision... no.
WW had a very prescient bent to issues, it predated #metoo, but I do not mean that it embraced the conflation that 'just alleging something = guilty'
*Girls* varsity.
😂😂😂 Charlie said “hello 😊”
Sam is too smart, experienced, and sophisticated to make the remark discussed at the beginning of this video. While I liked Ainsley's intelligence and rapidfire responses, I tired quickly of her lipstick feminism. She loved playing with "the boys" but never helped any of the women.
No, but it's also clear that the writer is unaware of the shit women have to put up with. Can I imagine a woman saying exactly what she said in the workplace? Absolutely, I've been part of these conversations. But it's also very different when you have some banter between friendly co-workers, and when a creep is objectifying you, or you get sexual comments from a man who is in power. I've known a lot of women who are sex positive, and love to joke around about sexuality...but were also sexually harassed.
That's the problem with these types of criticisms...they're valid...within a limited context, but if you don't specify that there is still a line that can be crossed, it just creates an expectation that sexual harassment is just someone going a bit too far rather than hurtful actions. Beyond that it also diminishes the feelings of others who aren't OK with the sexual banter, the expectation is that because a woman is OK with it all women should be OK with it. The other is that because she's OK with it, or at least says she is; has never had a negative experience. Most women I know have, and just learned to deal with it. To me, that's not OK.
The men clearly know that this isn't OK, but due to the "strictures of manhood" they have to support each other. Charlie clearly feels like his masculinity is in danger for supporting a woman who was offended by a comment. Who puffs out their chest and say "damn right" when someone says that they're a man? Someone who feels endangered of being emasculated.
@@Silvertip_M and you have no idea what men have to put up with, so why hate men because they don’t “understand” what women have to put up with?
I hope you & your cat will be very happy together.
I agree with Ainsley's argument, but it seems unlikely coming from someone who is canonically a member of the Federalist Society. I can't believe she would actually support such an expansive interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Misleading title.
Democrats think this is a Documentary
This is a typical example of what I call "the Angry feminist"
I liked her character...she left way too soon before someone could get her straight on the history of the 14th amendment and how it wouldn't protect her (or a lot of people).
Wow a monologue. Was that supposed to be entertaining or preaching to the audience?
And this was a left-leaning show only a decade ago. They'd never get away with that in a show today.
Definitely not an argument for feminism. Another male writer proving a male point that he is a feminist or not.
why would anyone argue FOR feminism? especially modern feminism which seeks not to right injustices but to grant women special treatment
I don't really care if the line is insulting moreso that it just sounds stupid as hell. Just say she looks hot or pretty or something. Imagine that being the hill you die on. Embarrassing.
It's curious how interns in _West Wing_ think they can spout off to senior staff without getting fired on the spot. Sorkin has this mindset where a character can get away with anything as long as she's female.
god this scene was so stupid
aaron sorkin: i, a man, will write this brilliant scene where i tell everyone how i think women should act and people will call me a brave feminist
And most of the commenters, as has been depressing demonstrated, will fall in line. Cos if it's all about women's choices, nothing fundamental has to change and if it goes wrong they take the blame. So convenient, isn't it?
You missed the point entirely.
@@gastondoumerc7863 no i didn't
@@kyeo77 your argument is an ad-hominem attack.
@@gastondoumerc7863 lol when people use big words and don't know what they mean
If only conservatives were anything like Ainsley. They've been going to crap IRL for 40+ years now.
I used to think that
west wing was one of the better informed shows back then, but 2 episodes made me gave up the show. In one ep, there was discussion about providing anti-viral Aids drugs to Africa and one of the bombshell argument against it was that African's couldn't tell the time cause they had no watches.....
And another was the claim the Pakistan president would be insulted to meet a women politician because of their religious beliefs...
That woman that was offended was only offended because no one as hansom as Sam had ever said anything like that to her
Bitter feminist
Ainsley Hayes is the most pathetic controlled opposition I’ve ever seen in any story, ever. I say that as a woman.
Shut up, Celia.
Ainsley was her own woman and close to being the smartest person in the room. That is why you are envious and rubbed the wrong way. You can’t/couldn’t compete with her.
@@memoriesofdaysgoneby2348 lol what? She’s a fictional character… and I would’ve liked her if she was actually her own person, rather than being barely in disagreement with ANYTHING liberals believe!
Of course she is fictional (duh) but you criticized he because she is superior to you, like the Liberals she educated on the show. At least you are consistent, Ms LSJ.
@@memoriesofdaysgoneby2348 you’re not making any arguments, just juvenile insults.