The Scout Rifle Study: A Book Review and Critique of the Scout Rifle Concept
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- Available on Amazon:
amzn.to/2KAkv45
Let me preface this by saying that I remain a big fan of the Scout Rifle concept and the Steyr Scout in particular. When I ordered a copy of Richard Mann's "The Scout Rifle Study", I was hoping to find a critical assessment of the concept. I was hoping to see pros and cons of the forward-mounted optic in particular, and the inclusion of an AR-10 on the cover made me think that there might be serious discussion of the modern lightweight self loading rifle in the context of the Scout Rifle concept. Basically, I was hoping for a book that would independently critique Cooper's concept, and bring fact-based conclusions about where it was suitable or unsuitable.
Instead, the book is much more a compilation of the primary source material of the Scout Rifle, as a one-stop-shop for those who are already happily convinced that it is a universal general-purpose rifle needing no defense. If the Scout Rifle is considered a cult, this book would be its Nicene Creed, not its Ninety-Five Theses. Of course, for the person who is a devotee of the concept, this is a great book, compiling all of Cooper's original definitions and detailing the history of Gunsite and the various Scout Rifle Conferences.
As one might expect, the various pseudo-Scout rifles made by Ruger, Savage, Mossberg, and others are discussed, but ultimately deemed underserving of the title for various violations of Cooper's standards (ignoring the fact that the Steyr Scout fails to make the required weight, because Cooped deemed it worthy). The entire realm of self-loading platforms are rejected on the basis that they are too heavily regulated in some places (and more importantly, not legal to use on African safari).
I was particularly curious to see discussion of the forward-mounted optic and its characteristics, as this it really the only thing that distinguishes a true Scout Rifle from a light and handy rifle with iron sights. While Cooper's original reasons for the choice are well explained (balance, situational awareness, and access to reload from the top), they are not challenged but simply accepted as dogma. To my mind, the proliferation of detachable magazines that load from the bottom (including the anointed Steyr Scout) make the access reason moot. I think the balance of low-light performance and magnification against peripheral situational awareness is a discussion worth having as it applies to traditional scopes versus forward mounted ones, but the book does not include this. Mann does include a series of benchmark tests of various essential Scout Rifle shooting tests, though, and of the rifles that come out in the top three by his scores, two had traditional scopes and one had only iron sights.
That all said, the book remains a useful and valuable reference for the dogma of the Scout Rifle, although at $45 I think it is a bit overpriced for what appears to be a print-on-demand paperback.
/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.bbtv.com/c...
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle #36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
The only thing that comes to mind with the mid mounted scope is that it seems like Cooper wanted all the benefits of a modern red dot and magnifier combo but the technology wasn't there at the time.
It would be interesting to see Ian and Karl talk over the concept of a modern scout rifle over on inrange, Maybe not as a project like the WWSD but just a discussion about which base gun and modifications/accessories they would add to make something that checks all the boxes and improves on the original concept.
He would've probably had a field day with a LPVO; had they been around in his time
Integral bipod, red dot and magnifier.... all they would need is one of the 6 mm cartridges as the bullet and the WWSD variant would be there, me thinks
i agree with your red dot theory, I believe WWCooperD with Ian and Karl, sounds like an interesting discussion.
In the art of the rifle cooper even calls that out. He said the forward mounted scope was the best existing option but he expected technology to advance. He main criteria if I remember correctly was being able to track moving targets with both eyes open, so low magnification. And then also he said that scopes close to the eye changed your focus when brought up for a snap shot. By place the optic forward your eye was less like to lose focus when shouldering the rifle.
Modern red dots and many LPVS also meet those criteria.
I hadn't considered that but it makes sense.
When I moved to Svalbard in 2011 I needed to buy a gun. Primarily for polar bear protection, secondary as a hunting rifle.
I hadn't done any hunting prior to moving to Svalbard, although I did have the required license. However, I do have a military background, having served with the UN forces in Southern Lebanon in the early '90s. So I have plenty of experience with having to carry a gun around with me everywhere I go. Which is pretty much a requirement on Svalbard, too, if you want to venture outside the settlements.
So, my prioritized list of requirements looked something like this:
- Reliability. Unlike most other non-conflict places on earth, your life may actually depend on your gun in the Arctic. So build quality and reliability under adverse field conditions is the absolute #1 priority.
- Low weight and short length for ease of carry. I knew I would have to carry this rifle around a lot. And carrying a short, light rifle is obviously better than carrying a long and heavy one. We did get to borrow an old Mauser when we first arrived, and I very quickly became aware that something in that weight and size range was definitely not on my shortlist.
- Ability to reach out to at least 200 meters. Now, you may only shoot a polar bear in self defence, and the idea of engaging one at 200 meters does not seem like a self defence scenario. But I lived there with my family, and although we would always tell the kids to stay close to use when outside the settlement - well, kids are kids and people are people, and they tend to forget and stray away from the group. So I realized I needed a rifle that could reliably engage a polar bear at some range.
- Agile enough for snap shots at short range. When moving in hilly terrain such as moraines, a bear may appear at a very short distance.
- Must also be useful as a hunting rifle.
To me, the Steyr Scout ended up being the perfect Svalbard rifle, and I frankly believe my needs and usage were pretty close to the colonel's original intentions.
- The scout scope allows quick shots at close range and with good peripheral vision, while at the same time being precise enough for seal hunting. When hunting seal, you must shoot it in the head at ranges of approx 200 meters and kill it instantly, or it will slip down its breathing hole and disappear below the ice. I have also consistently shot geese at 200 meters+ in low light conditions at about the same ranges, which is not a problem as long as you don't use expanding ammo. I did consider an Aimpoint scope, but lithium batteries do not perform well at very low temperatures and if your battery is flat they're pretty useless, so it did not meet the dependency criteria.
- Although modern optics are very reliable, stuff happens. I could envision any number of scenarios where my optics could have broken or become useless, such as slipping on a steep mountainside, snowmobile crash etc. I often traveled alone, and unlike a hunting scenario where you can just pack up and call it a day, I would still have to rely on my rifle for protection until I could make my way back to a settlement or be rescued. I mounted the scope with quick release rings, and appreciated the fact that I could just have ditched the scope and relied on the backup sights in such a situation.
- The bipod - it's what allowed me to headshot those seals while retaining a nimble, easy to carry rifle. Bonus for the facts that it is lighter than an add-on bipod and the stock remains sleek, so nothing to that can snag when pulling the rifle out of a scabbard. Also, while add-on bipods are arguably better, more stable and have more functionality, the built in bipod is there when you need it. And what you have with you is infinitely more useful than the stuff you left at home. The one thing that annoys me most about the bipod is that, when you use it on snow, the snow tends to jam into the small nooks and crannies at the ends of the feet and that has to be cleaned out before you can lock the bipod into the stock again. However, that is probably not a great issue for most users of this rifle.
- The mag detent that allows you to feed ammo from the top. It can be useful in a scenario where a bear is approaching from a distance. Using the detent will allow you to load individual rounds for warning shots and still have the entire mag capacity in reserve in case the bear decides to attack.
- The additional mag in the stock. It's just a very clever concept for carrying extra ammo.
I know it's been two years but I wanted to acknowledge your insightful comment. I think it was you who convinced me to buy the Steyr Scout and I couldn't be more happier.
My environment is a bit different to yours -- swap Svalbard for the Australian outback, and polar bears for invasive pigs; however, my needs matched yours.
Just wanted to send thanks across the world. You took the time to write your comment and it made the difference 😀
I'll add that I opted for the elcan spectre sight instead of traditional scout scope, which works for me and has more than proven itself. It's quite an expensive setup - far more than any other farmer would part with - but being ex-military myself, I can appreciate good gear. It's the last firearm I'd sell!
Cheers again mate, all the best
Curious what you moved to Svalbard for. I've always wanted to go and I've wondered what people who live there actually do. I assumed people kinda just grew up there and stayed with few people moving there for obvious reasons.
Just use a short barrel AR10 or it's derivative
Most excellent video as always Ian, thanks kindly for putting so much thought into it.
As a semi-old guy, I read Col. Cooper's writings since the early '70's and am quite familiar with the Scout Rifle concept.
In practice, the greatest deficiency of a scope mounted that far forward is when the sun is behind the shooter. Sort of like when one is trying to take a photo with one's phone and the sun is over our shoulder - we really can't see what we're taking the photo of.
The closest I came to building my own was a much modified Marlin 336 with a Leupold 2.5X scope mounted in the usual rear position. Because that scope has an extremely generous and forgiving eye box, it was about the fastest shooting rifle I or others who tried it had run - out to about 200 meters max. I am cognizant that a lever action and the .30-30 cartridge disqualify my build as a true Scout Rifle, nonetheless it suited my particular wants/needs for hiking and hunting in southern BC.
Anyway sir, well done once again!
Anymore these days I seemingly purchase less and less gun magazines and find more satisfaction in patreon support of keen young firearms enthusiasts such as yourself.
Stay well sir.
Bingo, that is the actually problem with the scope, and you can tell how many people have actually used it, even Ian did not bring it up. There are few shooters around any more. Most are just LARPing with rifles in their hands between Jocko Willink video.
As a fellow Canadian it's cool to know I can build something like this. Thanks for the ideas!
I've read the book. A handy bolt rifle is an amazing, do most things decently, tool. That's why people can't leave the scout rifle concept alone. Optics have come a helluva long ways since Cooper's day. So, what I cannot understand is why almost nobody can wrap their brain around the idea of building a handy bolt rifle with updated modern concepts. For instance a 16-18" barreled 6.5cm/308 with say a 1-6, 1-8, or 1-10 scope on it. Lucky Gunner did a great series on practical rifles. That is the only time I've heard someone say it like it is: " The scout rifle concept is great, so throw out the parts that don't make modern sense, and drive on." I don't understand why that's so difficult.
I grew up wanting to have a "Scout Rifle". I ended up building an AR type rifle in .308 and putting a 16" barrel with a 1-8x Scope on it and using it as a "Scout rifle" or a General all purpose gun. Keep up the great videos sir.
I'm interested to know what kind of scope mount that you used? I have wanted to do this same concept with my lr308. The only thing I found for a mount is Primary Arms extended cantilever and a vortex scout
The best thing that came out of the scout style rifles is that most of them come with good iron sights. Like the Ruger gunsight and tikka artic.
An early 'scout' rifle would be a Winchester 94 Trapper, a brush gun. .30-30, iron sights, forward mounted scope, light and handy. Forward mounted scope mainly due to the action.
Echo Whiskey agreed. Those older model 94 Trappers are sweet guns
Also with a more modern m lock rail and a light would be cool
Marlin does new ones with the 95 action I think. Gorgeous guns.
Ian actually brought that up when he talked about the Steyr Scout in 2017.
I think this is a very mature, reasonable, and measured critique and review. I appreciate that you analyze who this book is for and can recommend it for that purpose while being critical without being rude or personal in ways that I find lots of criticisms can accidentally end up being. Thanks for still being comfortable being critical (and in a respectful manner).
Me, being the owner (for 20+ years) of the Steyr Scout in .308 am seeing a big plus in the low carry weight and reliabilty. The forward mounted scope gives advantage mainly for close by targets. Easy to shoot fast with both eyes open, as not to lose sight on the surroundings. My main use is in the African bush. Not for hunting animals....
As I recall, from the gun rags of the day, we were supposed to make our own from the then cheap surplus Mausers. The use of stripper clips was retained and the only tool required was a hacksaw. The concept was more of what we consider today as a Guide Gun.
What I found interesting is that despite being "banned" for scout rifle use the modern red dot low magnification scopes really meet the scout scope requirements.
I really do like scout rifle setup but it really is an answer in search of a problem.
I've got two quite different comments, really, which I shall put up together:
I corresponded with Jeff Cooper for many years and he had lots of pet ideas and was quite willing to consider the pet ideas of others. One of his pet ideas was crocodile farming in Arizona. The Scout Rifle has fewer obvious problems than that.
There was a trend, once, in the UK, to have a reasonably powerful air-rifle with a forward-mounted long eye relief scope. Being a person who hunted rats with the help of a self-taught tabby gun-cat, I needed my peripheral vision to keep track of where the cat was in relation to whatever rodent she had flushed out of cover. So a "Scout Air-rifle" met my needs. I sometimes used a 9mm rimfire shotgun instead, depending on the circumstances and how close I was to other people's property. Rats move extremely quickly and high-magnification optics aren't all that useful, especially when one's cat is mixing it with half a dozen hostiles at once and in need of covering fire. I never used anything louder than a 9mm rimfire because Twinkle's primary sensor was her hearing.
I wonder if some kind of non-magnifying optic, expressly designed for the job, would be appropriate for a Scout rifle in Africa. The most dangerous African animals are pretty big, but very stealthy and they are herd animals: magnification will not help you see them (all) in the sort of places where they are usually encountered. Having both eyes open, just might. Most cartridges simply will not drop them at the sort of range where high magnification would serve a purpose.
What 9mm rimfire?
@@mohammedimran3670 something along those lines
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_gun
Generally "dangerous game scopes" are 1-8 (or 2-7, 1-4, etc., inside that range) magnification. There are also legal requirements with using higher powered cartridges, Cooper's Steyr was a .376 (a .375 H&H knock off by Steyr). I wouldn't really attribute stealthy to most of the big five, but certainly leopards and lions. Also, it is common to carry several rifles, a .308ish rifle for gazelle type things, a .375 for bison or elephant type things and a .450 NE with two barrels and no scope for when something is charging you because they did not appreciate the .375.
Worth adding that the most popular African safari guns are not scouts, but CZ 550s or Browning X-Bolts in .375 (the former being a Mauser 98 action). Or for fancy people, Heyms. Or for stupidly rich people things like Holland & Holland, Anderson Wheeler or Westley Richards (which are all really well made Mauser 98s actions in a .375+). None of them mention anything about a scout placement of the scope, but they will probably do it for you (an H&H is a $80000 rifle, they had better).
@@Lowlandlord Many people have been surprised by elephants suddenly appearing very close to them with no noise that they can remember hearing.
Coming up from Headstamp Publishing, The Scout Rifle in Theory and Practice.
@@Strawberry92fs I'd say that is a big plus these days ^^
@@Strawberry92fs From the Scout point of view, the disqualifying point of semi auto rifles is that if it jams, or fails to load in any way when you are hunting dangerous game, then that might be fatal for you. It's probably at least some of the reason that semi autos are banned for hunting in Africa. It's bad for business if people on hunting trips keep getting killed. You will never find a professional guide who wants to use a semi auto for 'back up'. Mostly they use a good bolt gun, but there are still a few who swear by the reliability of a double rifle when the back up shot HAS to happen, or you end up with a dead client. From an Australian point of view semi autos are essentially completely banned, so a semi auto scout wouldn't work here. So if it's a gun that you want to take anywhere in the world, semi auto is just banned in too many places to make it practical. From the point of reliability a scout rifle should be utterly reliable without the possibility of ever jamming in a situation where it's critical, and so from that point semi auto is also not acceptable for a scout rifle.
@@andrewlongfield3102 I mean I've had more reliable semi autos than bolt actions myself, as for african guides I'm pretty sure it also doesn't help that semi autos are probably pretty restricted in many of those countries. In addition to that with certain game there are caliber requirements, and there's pretty much no semi auto option for some of them. Which many of the calibers that would be sufficient are "military calibers" and thus probably also restricted as well
@Christian Morgan I am aware that there are guys who do feral eradication with semi autos here in Australia. But, for that you have to have a registered company working as a feral eradicator, and you have to actually have current contracts to perform eradication. The guns are classified as a category 'D' license requirement, and it's pretty hard to get, they don't just hand them out. Also because a semi auto centrefire is categorized in Australia as a banned import item, it's impossible to bring any new semi auto rifles through customs. That means that the only rifles that can legally be used in this way, must already be in the country, probably why the guy is using an old SKS for pig eradication. I have a friend with a gunshop who services SLR's (FN FAL's) for a number of guys who do feral camel eradication, and there are issues now with some of these rifles because they are becoming worn out, but it's illegal to import new parts to repair them, so while it's easy enough to re-barrel them, if you have problems with a worn sear, or bolt, it a different thing entirely. I started a company a number of years ago to contract shoot feral camels through the central deserts of Australia. The guys who use SLR's are mainly shooting from helicopters, or 4wheel drives at the outskirts of the deserts. All these methods have a limited range and are restricted to the edges of the desert leaving massive areas where the camels are untouchable. There are already over a million feral camels damaging the desert environment, so it's a huge problem. I was set up to be self sufficient with a 3 man team and the ability to spend a month at a time right in deep in the otherwise unreachable areas of desert. The main issue was that for this work a bolt gun wouldn't work efficiently enough, as I wouldn't be working at the short ranges (very short) that the heli hunters do. This meant having a longer range capable weapon, and we settled on the Noreen 'bad news' 338 Lap Mag semi auto. The recoil is controllable and they were going to be mounted in a rig anyway as no one could shoot a hundred 338 rounds a day for a month. The difficulties started when I proposed importing 3 units of these rifles. Even on the basis of everything else being legal (various government and police departments who dealt with the permits required), and having an agreement to re-export the units after the contract period, it proved to be impossible to import these rifles, even when I already had government permits to use them. Interestingly, later, I met an American guy who had tried the same thing (set up a feral eradication company to do camels in central Au), and had failed at the same hurdle. I'm certainly not anti semi auto, but as a general scout rifle I'm of the opinion that a bolt gun is better for that niche application.
@@ThrashTillDeth85 It's an interesting situation, and probably, as you've pointed out, not that simple. Yes some of the African countries with big game have a minimum calibre requirement, and certainly this is the case for declared 'dangerous' game. The general minimum calibre in these cases is usually 375, but a few countries specify a minimum case size. This is usually 9.3x64, and it's probably because these countries had Dutch/ Belgian / German influences rather than British. I've never seen (or heard of), a semi auto in these calibres, but if you can build a semi auto 50 cal, I'm sure it would be possible. All the rangers in the various national, and game parks are armed with semi autos, although these are to deal with poachers rather than animals, so they are available if you have the right licenses. Some of the rangers in various parks are privately employed (I know of an ex service Aussie who runs an anti poaching patrol unit), so semi autos are not exclusively either banned, or military. I'm pretty sure that a professional hunter (PH), who guides on dangerous game could get all the required permits for a semi auto if they wanted. But none of them do. I've seen Jerry Miculek demonstrate how a badly deflected ejecting case can jam a semi auto regardless of how reliable your action is, and he says that although rare, he has seen it happen on a range, and that it's possible on an ar15 action for a spent case to get jammed into a position on the far side of the bolt, where it cannot be cleared by cycling the action, the gun has to be stripped to clear it. When this is a possibility, even if rare, no PH would ever put themselves in a position where this could happen, even if it's a worst case scenario, because in that scenario someone he's responsible for could die, or be badly injured(in a lot of countries where guides operate for dangerous game, they have a legal responsibility for the safety of the client, and can be sued if things go wrong) All PH's use a proven bolt action like a Mauser, if they aren't using a double. I have never heard of these actions having failures in the hands of an experienced guide. There's a reason they rely on them rather than a semi auto. I think that a scout rifle should fall into that kind of reliability category, like a guide gun should.
*Captain Barbosa voice* "The Code of Cooper is more like a set of guidelines than an actual Code, y'see..."
This is why I LOVE this channel and have massive respect for you sir. you are never afraid of questioning ideas or concepts like the scout rifle or others. Thank you for your MASSIVE contribution to the firearms community.
It's refreshing to see someone who isn't afraid of being accused of slaughtering the sacred cow that is Colonel Jeff Cooper.
Sefton -- He's not so much slaughtering the cow as pointing out that it smells like cow shit so could we please keep it in the barn and not the bedroom even though we still think it's a pretty neat cow...
He made a bunch of errors. Not impressed. How valid is one guy executing a bunch of drills with a variety of guns, what does that prove. Assume the exercises are good, though the one he most detailed about a bullet from a cuff was pretty stupid. All we know is the guy in question found certain rifles easier to shoot. Could be the quality of one guy's eyesight.
Sounds like someone dose have a scout rifle
I think Ian makes a better point in that the concepts, ideas, and goals behind Col Cooper's Scout concept are valid, but achieving them in reality, especially with modern technology considered are achievable in different ways.
Frankly I thing col cooper if he were alive today would agree. This is evidenced by the fact that the standards of a scout rifle changed over time, and the fact that the one rifle to be actually blessed by Cooper didn't even strictly meet the criteria.
I think if Cooper were alive today, he'd still be touting the scout concept, but the concept would have evolved with technology.
The problem with scout purists is the fact that they are willing to kill their own valid and respectable concept in order to try and validate it.
The fact that most refuse to accept that it is 50 yrs later and things evolve but still try to discredit a concept that worked back then, but then again there’s always gonna be some that live to discredit others opinions or beliefs because it’s their nature and it’s not Ian I’m talking about.
I've thought that is was pretty telling that when the Canadian Rangers, arguably the military force that would've presumably benefitted the most from a "scout rifle" as their guns have to fulfill both military and personal hunting roles, kept using Lee-Enfields for decades and replaced them only very recently with essentially just a really nice hunting rifle (Tikka T3/Colt C19) when they weren't able to get any more Lee-Enfield parts. If a scout rifle doesn't fit their needs, of all people, then I think it's kinda pointless.
Though I also heard that Ruger won the first round of trials that Canada had with their "Gunsight Scout" rifle. But they couldn't reach a deal (something to do with Ruger wanting to manufature the rifles, and the Canadian Gov. wanting Ruger to licence them to Colt Canada.) So they held a 2nd round of trials and the Tikka won.
This is why I read comments. So many have additional information that is nice to hear.
@@jtilton5 This is what happened. You speak the truth. The deal did fall through due to Ruger not allowing someone else to manufacture their rifles instead of them.
@@jtilton5 That's a good counterpoint. The Colt Canada requirement in the contract is absolutely a thing but I'm not informed enough about Ruger's efforts or whatnot. I'd readily retract my statement if true; or at least append it to say that the Canadian Rangers are basically one of the few (if not the only) groups that the scout rifle concept is suited for.
The Canadian Rangers really missed their aim on this. They should have tested the original Steyr and modified it as they required. Unlike some of the other 'scout' models various manufacturers offer, the Steyr is not made of plastic, but is made of stiff polymer, which helps it be very accurate. In fact it is so stiff that at the original weight it isn't comfortable to shoot factory 308's through for more than half a dozen rounds at a time. But if you look at how slim the barrel is, that's no surprise. This rifle is not designed for long shot strings.Yes the bipod is a bit light on, and flexi, but it' has swivel capability, and comes at no extra weight penalty. I own one of the first batch (bought in Vienna), and on the range people are constantly amazed at how accurate this rifle really is at long range (600 to 800 metres). They point out how short and thin the barrel is, and rubbish it, then can't understand how the groups are so tight (1 moa at 800m). If you forget the word 'scout', and fit it with a decent scope that can gather a lot of light at dusk conditions, then the original 'scout' becomes an almost unmatched platform for shooting in rough country out to about 600m.
I had the Savage Scout; a fine rifle, and now have a Swedish Mauser with a forward red dot, that makes weight, even with a scope instead of the dot, and has a blind magazine, and also now have a Martini rim fire converted to 357 Maximum with a forward Leupold scope to aid loading. I am a hunter, and see Cooper's scout as an arm for the man exploring disputed territory, and in need of taking game to feed himself and in all likely hood indigenous forces. You Ian are one of the few men who are a thoughtful enough man at arms to examine Jeff's idea critically. I am glad you did so. That said, I like shooting a forward scope, I have given up magnification across the board. I have found anything over 6X to be a detriment to my style in the field. Stripper clips remain a lot lighter alternative to a man carrying his kit for an extended period, so magazines are not the be all of the scout's style. I do not think a detachable mag rifle will ever make weight. I think too little thought is given to the idea of what a Scout's mission, meaning the man, might be and his reasons - multiple as they would tend to be, for being armed. Burnham's biography is a great read for anyone wanting to understand Scouting.
Uber jelly. How you 357 max?
That also raises a question of why it isn't silenced? And wouldn't an army scout in the way you described benefit more from something like VSS, which was made specifically for army specifications for that role? And it's a completly different beast with it's lower range, semiauto action, removable magazine, subsonic ammo and integrated supressor. So, when both are available, who is in which niche? So I'd say that his scout rifle concept has very questionable connection to military tasks required of said role.
@@T_D_B_ well yeah. Still it's easy to lose magazines
Exploring disputed territory while hunting game and occasionally shooting at people sounds like a complete and total fantasy. The Scout rifle is just that: a gun made for one old man's Fudd fantasy scenario.
John Eden exactly this. It seems Jeff Cooper was playing the game Far Cry back in 1983 somehow because that’s the only situation, real or fictional, where you would need to simultaneously be a one man army and a big game hunter.
Great video, Ian! The suppressor point is excellent. As a European hunter myself that's what immediately came to my mind when you started talking about balance. I also find the integrated bipod on the Steyr Scout very interesting and it looks practically useful if it's sturdy.
As an engineer, gun owner, and reserve officer, I admire very much this gentleman. I grew up looking for this sort of knowledge in public or university libraries. Now we have it here, in our homes, every week. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with so many viewers all over our beautiful planet.
I feel like the idea needs to be updated, treat the optic as primary and irons as secondary, barrel mounted U notch sights would allow a rear mounted scope. Also a double stack magazine like from an m14 would be better so you could load it from the top or put a fresh magazine in.
Maybe a What Would Cooper Do 2020?
WWCD2020? 😂
+1 I would really like the idea of a modern bolt gun project.
inb4 that becomes a thing, lol.
That sorta irish guy I think the optic is forward for having access to the action for using stripper clips to load or top off the internal or detachable magazine. Nothing to do with eye relief, that depends on the optic
Fun!
I like that idea , would be cool
Cooper was ahead of his time...until the 1980s. I don't say that with any animosity toward the Colonel. Reading his books and articles was formative in my thinking about guns, but as time has worn on I see how some of his concepts are better left as representative of how his experiences shaped what he thought rather than be taken at face value as timeless and unchangeable.
"But what is it FOR?"
"To sell, of course."
Cooper was totally against that, though he did get weird when people wanted to make his rifle. It seemed more vanity than money with him. He seemed to have enough money. He was put off by rifles that had no purpose and were all "features". It is ironic that his rifle has come to be seen as mostly just another very narrow segment of the 20 rifles you must have.
Interesting video, I may check this book out. I just converted a Ak-47 into a scout type rifle. I mounted a long eye relief above the gas tube and the scope rings are high enough to still utilize the hard sights. It's cool to know there is a book on this.
Crazy coincidence, I watched your Steyr Scout Rifle video yesterday and you come out with this video today :)
I was looking into a scout rifle last night and then this video was uploaded
@@Hobgob1inz What are you going to get now?
It's also something I'd been meaning to pick up on theHunter Classic since it was first added and finally did right before I saw the notification.
Hey Ian.
I always love your videos and your input as a very knowledgeable firearms expert. This is the first time I've ever doubted your input... Not that I think what you said was wrong but more so not definitive in regards to the possible effectiveness of a scout format. Now I'm not a expert nor will I ever claim to be one but I have done my own testing with the scout platform in a more controlled experiment by using the same rifle(Ruger Gunsite Scout .308) with a forward scope and the traditional. My range had targets set 2 at 50yrds 3 at 100yrds and 1 at 150yrd in different locations (left to right). I timed myself with the rifle 6 times each with the different optic option and found the average time was nearly -3(-2.72) seconds over the traditional optic using my scout optic. Not a dramatic difference but definitely a improvement in those conditions.
Im my opinion this was due to the perfect niche I had set that would accommodate the scout. Not that I wanted to fluff and show the scout is superior but to try and see if Cooper's vision for a all around rifle had any support over the traditional setup. Maybe with your Steyr you could try a similar test and see if your data is similar as mine.
Thank you for your time, knowledge and labor you put into your videos as I greatly appreciate it.
"If the Scout Rifle is considered a cult, this book would be its Nicene Creed, not its Ninety-Five Theses."
Perfection.
Excellent video. I have Steyr Scout and after minor tunings it's really my go to hunting rifle. Trigger was horrible from the start, long pre travel 3kgs of pull. After those were addressed rifle is now really pleasant to shoot. I have used supressor with it but now I realized that brake is what I need to cut that extra bulk and lenght a bit. Then planning to install cheek reset from Elite Scout as I have always felt a bit annoyed to get perfect picture fast enough. (I got spoled from SSG04). That cheek rest is best I know and I have McMillan A5 also.
Accuracy is really good and as I have trained some long range shooting I have managed to shoot to 970m with factory made Lapua Scenars 168gr targets that are 45cm wide. Easy +500m shots with knee support and first round.
Really great rifle.
This deep dive is superb. Your approach is nuanced. If I could grade this as an essay, I'd say just publish it.
This review was exactly what I needed. I’ve entertained the idea of a “scout” set up forever but never saw enough gains potential to spend my own money without handling one in person.
My setup for hunting the Appalachian and Catskill mountains in the thick northeast, and it’s always been a carbine length lever action or short action bolt gun. With a fixed 4x or 2-7x32 as close to bore height as I can get. I had one 7600 pump but never really used it. It somehow always just felt to big even with a 18” barrel.
I never have really needed to search for game in the scope even on moving game at any distance. Because I’ve spotted it, kept my eyes on it while raising the gun. The guns already instinctively pointed like a shot gun before I drop my eye to the scope. At 2 or 3 power I’ve shot deer 6 to 125 yards and have used more then 4x on deer or bear out to 200 yards.
I’ve settled on light weight 7mm-08 with 18” barrel for my go to anything lower 48. 154 grain bullets traditional cup and core bullets have always been 1 shot kills most don’t get back up all have been less then 35 yard movement. I can snap shoot at 10 yards or easily stay in the 6 bull at the 300 yard range off my walking sticks by holding my cross hairs on the top edge. I probably carry it 15-25 miles and 8-12 days of hunting between shots.
I was running low on ammo after the last few years. So last year I picked up a few boxes of super performance hornady 140 gr. I won’t use again because I shot a deer at 15 yards running out of a drive. The shot was down hill quartering away . The entrance was a little high. It took out a literal fist size hole from high rear rib cage entry on the to front armpit on the off side. Completely removed 2 vertebrae. Lost 2/3s of the meat in the front end because to being removed by the bullet, blood shot or full of bone fragments. The ammo is clearly intended for longer ranges. And I just don’t shoot more then 1 in 5 animals at more the 100 yards.
With ammo that can preform that well. I just have to pick the right ammo for longer ranges. And the deer won’t care weather I’m 275 or 325 yards away. Or that my barrel is 18” instead of 24”.
If one is truly "scouting" and not just going on a safari with an entourage of helpers or fellow hunters, or in known areas, than the idea that they rifle might have to be used against human threats must be considered. In the United States, there really isn't any territory left that one might be "scouting" in. That's more of an early 1800s mountain man sort of thing here in the States. The fact remains, if you're looking for an all around "good enough" rifle that will do the job in the most various of situations, semi-auto is the way to go. You can get good enough accuracy for most game with semi-auto, and you can still fight with it. Weight is an issue if you're going to be humping it for long distances, and it's your primary means of defense on your own or with a very small group. Some sort of lightweight semi-auto .308 or 30-06 seems like the best bet to me. Not spectacular in any one particular field of shooting, but good enough for small game, big game, fast or slow moving animal threats big or small, and human threats. When you're one guy all alone or maybe with 1 or 2 buddies in the middle of unexplored nowhere with undetermined threats and the need to survive, giving up capacity and speed of followup shots by going with a bolt action just seems dumb to me. A lightweight, rugged, semi-auto in .308 with something like an ACOG would be my choice. Good enough to get food, good enough to give you a decent shot at taking down larger game, and good enough against human threats.
Scar 17
@@lundy762 Or Robinson XCR or AR-10, etc. Even the Garand, if lightened, would fit well. Keep in mind, a lot of older people have this idea that semi-autos are not accurate enough to replace bolt-actions in such roles.
Absolutely right. That's the train of thought that led me to my own do-it-all gun that is an AR10 with prism scope. It's not nearly as nice to carry and haul around as the Scout Rifle is, but I'm willing to sacrifice comfort on the hunting end of the use spectrum for performance on the defensive end where I stand a chance of being killed - hunting is recreation, defense is serious business.
One of the ideas of the bolt action was due to laws , other countries may frown upon semiauto's but a bolt will be within the law and acceptable . But you are correct about the semiauto being a much better all arounder in the situations you mentioned.
Desert tech MDR. Accurate enough, lightweight and compact even with a 20" barrell.
These are good insights, Ian. I've been saving to buy a Ruger Gunsite Scout, but now I'm thinking that may not be the best choice for my needs.
I also find all of my best shooting is with irons, to the point I sold all my RDS sights.
Irons are so underrated, I think because a lot of people don't know how to use them properly.
Look at the most effective snipers of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, and nearly every one of them used iron sights.
Sure, if you're competing an 1/16th of an inch can cause you to loose a match, then by all means, run optics, but for real world application, don't rule out a set of good irons!
I once mounted an Aimpoint T1 out as close to the muzzle as I could get it on an FN SCAR. It was AWESOME as far as pointing. I had heard that one could skeet shoot with scout rifles -- and the setup I mentioned very definitely produced the feeling it would be possible. Kinda hard to fully appreciate without actually having one in your hands, but it just felt SO good. I eventually stopped using it, however, for the same reason I'm not a big fan of red dots on pistols -- it was all too easy to "lose" the red dot, and find yourself spending seconds tilting the rifle in all ways to try to regain it, lol. If I could get around that problem I would LOVE to shoot a rifle with a red dot out near the muzzle!
To the best of my knowledge, Cooper began writing about the rifle and concept about in 1965(?). That’s at least 55 years ago. There are photos of Winchester 94’s with forward mounted intermediate eye relief Leupold scopes in about 1964(?) also. Cooper did endorse the Winchester in this configuration. I found your posting very informative and entertaining. Thanks.
"The scout rifle: Designed in the 70's, by men in their 60's, using gear from the 50's, dreaming about hunting Nazi's in Africa in the 40's. " One of my biggest criticisms of the scout rifle concept has always been that it's defenders never settle on what exactly the "scout" is. Is it a military scout, or a hunting guide? The rifle doesn't make sense for either of them. If you want a lightweight, handy hunting rifle, you don't need all the scout nonsense (Backup irons/clip fed/etc). If you want a military/combat rifle, hunting big game just isn't the issue. The envelope where the scout rifle is the right answer is so small as to be meaningless. And even then, if you really wanted both today, I would be hard pressed to find any scenario where an lightweight AR-10 isn't a better choice. For most people, today, the ideals of the scout rifle are far better captured in the WWSD concept.
Correction: Hunting as Nazi's. Cooper loved him some Rhodesian racists.
@@wlewisiii of course "Rhodesia" has done so much better now as Zim. I mean just a cultural paradise.
Leonard Hanson Pointing to Zim’s dismal state of affairs is lazy whataboutism. It does nothing to address the issue of the abhorrent racism that defined Ian Smith’s junta.
It feels like he wanted a ranch rifle, a hunting rifle, and a safari rifle all in one. That said, I'm not sure a universal gun works in the same way a universal fighter/attack/bomber aircraft doesn't work. If you say... Live in the desert southwest and hunt in hills and arroyos... you want a different gun than if you are in alaska with ambush bears and moose around every tree. Even in alaska itself where parts are heavy forest, and become increasingly open tundra as you head north.
Setting up a gun for your region in a caliber that works best for what you need to shoot seems best. I mean .460 weatherby magnum is great for people who are stuck in 1899, but why would you shoot a coyote with it? 5.56 works fine for dog sized targets and follow up shots are possible instead of theoretical.
Boy Scout.
I always thought a scout rifle with an ACOG or red dot/magnifier would be a better choice than the scope.
The issue is eye relief. Forward mounted scopes give you a lot more field of view, which is critical for the concept
Neat video and it's nice to hear a review from someone, like Ian, who likes the Scout Rifle. (And lets face it, the Steyr Scout Rifle is a light weight, handy and accurate rifle: what's not too like?) But unlike some reviewers he is not a "true believer" so he can appreciate the limits of Cooper's concept.
The Scout Rifle always seemed like it was 'a thing' not because it had the intrinsic merit to survive on it's own as 'a thing,' but because in spite of that, many people tried their hardest to make it a thing.
It kind of reminds me of the Rhodesian Mamba, if it had any QC in production. A bunch (or in this case, one) supposed firearms genius coming up with the ultimate pistol/rifle which turns out to be anything but.
I think we are better off viewing Cooper's parameters as guidelines or suggestions rather than hard rules. The Scout Rifle is a concept, an idea, and it is based in practical utility, which changes by individual use. Being able to modify the rifle to get the most utility out of it demands we be able to compromise on the parameters, but if we retain the basic idea of a light, handy rifle that is easy to carry and shoot, and capable of taking most game in the circumstances we take game, then we have conceptually adhered to the Scout Rifle. I find that for my use, a 16 inch barreled AR-10 with an LPVO is pretty much ideal. It is nearly two pounds heavier than Cooper allotted for the rifle, but it is well balanced and carries well enough slung to my chest that I don't really mind the additional weight. It is, in fact, about the same length and weight as my issued M16A4, but obviously with the capabilities of the .308 cartridge. In some areas, a lever action .30-30 might be more practical, being lighter and handier than even Cooper's vision, and consideration of 300+ yards being impractical in many areas. Adapt the concept to your needs and appreciate Cooper's pragmatic approach and indispensable wit and wisdom by getting out in the field and using the thing to develop a skill set rather than nitpicking about minute details that even he showed a willingness to compromise on.
I agree with you, Cooper's idea should only ever be taken as suggestions for the concept of a scout rifle. Technically any light handy rifle fills the scout rifle role.
Ian refers to the other scout rifles as "pseudo scout rifles" which is silly. The Ruger gunsight scout is a great scout rifle that still comes in at a light 8lbs with a full 10rd mag, sling, and scope, yet it has stronger iron sights than the Styer and a heavy cold hammer forged barrel that does sub-moa at 100yds.
Or, heck, any run of the mill AR with and LPVO fills the scout rifle concept just fine too.
The idea of a scout rifle is just a concept for a light and handy rifle. Pick and choose what suggestions you see fit from what Cooper said. Even Cooper was not concrete in what his vision of a scout rifle is and is not.
I got a savage 10 scout police trade in a while back, old school trade in. It came with a set of ghost ring rear and bead front site, and also a beat up scout optic. I scrapped the scope, and I'll tell you, the bead front with ghost ring rear is just butter. I also picked up a red dot for up front and it's very quick and handy. Thanks for the video Ian 🤙🤙
when you were balancing it, was the backup magazine in the stock empty or full? it changes the balance.
I've always felt that the scout rifle concept was dated to when it was originated and didn't compensate for advanced in engineering and manufacturing subsequent to that. your comment on 1980s scopes is spot on... many $250 scopes these days have better quality optics and are more durable than 'expensive' optics in the 1980s. it also completely ignored the existence of magnifying (or non-magnifying) red dots.
Today's $150 scopes beat damn near anything from pre-1975. It's funny to look at old sniper rifles and think "This was the best optic they could find?" While there have been some refinements, I don't think rifle technology has made much progress since the AR-15 was introduced. We have a bigger selection of cartridges but none do anything that wasn't done 60 years ago except fit in smaller actions. Projectiles have improved greatly although I think pistols are the biggest beneficiary, rifles were always quite lethal so there wasn't as much to gain. But optics? For widely available scopes I'd be surprised if anything before 1990 is a viable alternative to today's scopes from semi-reputable manufacturers.
Both magazines were empty. You can see when he removes it that there is no shiny brass.
@@5000rgb Part of the issue with Cooper though was tried and true, it shows with some of the choices like retaining the bolt-action which was in part due to the great reliability of the action over levers and semi-autos of the era (though he was willing to consider SA possible if it could hit the other requirements unlike some who've come since), and the preference for there being iron sights as a backup if the scope was damaged. The luxury of the bipod was probably why he said ok to the Steyr Scout because for the benefit it offers a prone shooter at no real impact to the other requirements of the rifle it's a good compromise.
The Jeff Cooper 'scout rifle' is one man's opinion of what is right. What is right for one person is not necessarily right for another.
My 'handy' rifle is a Springfield M1A Scout in 7.62 NATO, with iron sights and a forward mounted trijicon sight. Fed by 20 round magazines...
That might not be right for Jeff Cooper or you, but it's right for Me. That's what makes a rifle great, is the perfect match with it's operator.
Good Video! Take Care and be safe, John
I legitimately thought a scout rifle was a light, handy rifle, that was suited to being carried around and shot only in emergency; what I mean is, is an army type scout.
My 8mm VZ24 is set up with a scout scope. Works great for me and I got my first deer with it! I chose the setup to keep the clip feed and not chop up or drill the rifle for optics.
"and thus gun jesus himself hath declared yond the scout rifleth is a religious notion" - F W 9:11
And he dared to criticize Jeff Cooper ! Shame ? Not at all. Why not ? Keep your critical sense !
If I was a member of that particular cult, I'd be happy enough that it wasn't declared heresy
I'm probably part of the cult of Jeff Cooper and the Scout rifle, and I approve of this video.
Had my Steyr Scout well over 20 years, and it does have it good sides and it's less good sides, but I love it and don't want to be without it. Now I just could find a new recoil pad that haven't gone ever harder for 20 years... :p
I will take anything Jeff Cooper sad a religious fact. That man was a genius in every way.
I read this as Reverend Lovejoy from The Simpsons
I have used scout scopes on my deer hunting rifles for about the last twenty years.
One rifle is a winchester bolt action in 3006 and the other is an AR 15 type rifle in 7.62x39 . I hunt the heavily wooded northern lower peninsula of Michigan. I appreciate the ease of carrying a rifle with a forward mounted scope, but where the concept really shines is when shooting from a treestand. Targets often present themselves suddenly at close range and awkward angles.
Often the rifle is fired from positions other than shouldered with a cheek weld as required by conventional scopes. I am able to make hits that would not be otherwise possible except with the exception of a red dot.
Iconoclast!
Outstanding and fair analysis. LtCol Cooper contributed greatly to the firearms field, but by the time of his scout rifle advocacy was stretching to maintain his relevancy.
I have a Springfield M1A Scout with a Leatherwood Hi-Lux LER 2-7x32 BDC scope. I know this rifle does not meet the criteria of a scout rifle but I love this gun and scope setup.
The ATR scooe is in my opinion one of the best scopes for this setup. It is great at low magnification with very clear glass but still allows you to zoom for the longer shots. The one con is at 7x, the eye box is moved slightly forward and narrowed, and I find myself reverting to closing my left eye to focus on the reticle.
I always thought Cooper's "scout rifle" was for a very niche application that was niche in its own time and which time has left behind, a rifle carried by a man doing a deep recon on foot in hostile territory who might have to take a shot of opportunity, perhaps two, a man who might be carrying no more than 10 or 15 rounds of ammunition because that's not his purpose. Basically, something that doesn't seem to happen any more.
I thought of it as a rifle carried a lot and shot little. And that its design reflected the limitations of the technology available at the time. I thought it might be useful as a concept for say a rancher or someone like that who might want a rifle handy, though in that niche anything might work.
I don't see why any modern user would want the platform except for the same reason you buy a 1911 or a single action revolver, you just want to experience the old school.
I don't think that time ever really existed at all, outside the dreams of old men.
There were plenty of men in doing deep recon on foot in hostile territory over in Vietnam when Cooper was designing his Scout rifle - none of them had or wanted anything remotely similar to what Cooper was proposing.
Like Chris said above this weapon never had a military use in the 20th century. You either had lone 'sniper type' scouts that need a powerful rifle or scout sections that need something beefy at close range like an SMG, or even an M1. Sending someone to a conflict zone with a scoped civilian-calibre light hunting rifle is just silly.
@@CanalTremocos Didn't Hathcock use a Winchester Model 70 chambered in 30-06 with a 3-9x40 commercial scope? I mean that's about as civilian as it gets. Granted, Carlos Hathcock could probably use a slingshot...
@@knottheory79220 Yeah. You highlight how hard it is to discuss this topic. If we go back in time we'll get to a point where a 'light civilian-calibre rifle' is still heavier-hitting than a sharpshooter's rifle.
This was fascinating!! If you live in a rural area, there is some lure to this concept but your analysis is right on. Scout scopes suck in modern times, they screw up the balance of the gun and generally dont do much that a good traditional scope can do. I thought I loved the idea of the scout rifle and owned several set up that way but I realize now that I like a handy light rifle in a moderate cartridge. A better equivalent in my mind is one of these super light hunting rifles (think barrett fieldcraft etc with a 2.5-10 leupold vx3).
I was able to get a scratch-built AR in 6.5 Grendel to make weight using readily available COTS parts and a a red-dot with flip-to-side magnifier. The gnashing of teeth by the scout-rifle-purist can still be heard today. “6.5G isn’t available in Africa!” “You can’t reload with stripper clips!” “6.5G can’t take a Wildebeest!” Such an absurd cult.
Nice, handy rifle though.
Agreed. A "do-all" rifle gets tailored to the owner's actual needs, not some daydream, "wouldn't it be nice" concept. My South Texas ass will simply never be in God-forsaken Africa, nor for that matter Alaska. However, the possibility (probability?) of a WORL or SHTF scenario does exist, therefor my do-all rifle is a clone of the M5, in .308, with an LPVO in a QD mount, good pop-ups, bipod stud and ambi everything.
I remember reading Col. Coopers column in Guns & Ammo back in the day and my impression was that he viewed most of the criteria as ideals to strive for not minimums which had to be met - so it wasn't "a scout rifle must weigh less than X", rather it was "a scout rifle must be light, ideally weighing less than X". Thus why the numbers changed and why he approved of the Steyr Scout despite it not meeting all the criteria. My impression of the core requirements was:
1. Manual bolt action repeater.
2. Long eye relief scope.
3. Readily available cartridge appropriate for hunting non-dangerous big game.
The end goal was a rifle appropriate for either: big game hunting pretty much anywhere in the world, or military/self-defence use. Cooper's biases can be seen here. He prioritized big game hunting over small game hunting, despite the latter being more useful in a survival situation. He felt every soldier should be a marksman and thus strongly preferred what we would call a DMR today over anything capable of replacing an SMG.
" If a semiautomatic action were made which was sufficiently compact and otherwise acceptable, it should certainly be considered, but at this time there is no such action available." -Jeff Cooper
I think it's one of those instances where the concept had a specific time and place, and they no longer exist, and thus the concept has been outdated. Especially when you factor in the development of firearms in the last 50 years, optics in particular.The whole concept only exists in a hunting scenario, where arbitrary rules and outdated concepts, limit the objectiveness of those who practice it.
Hi Ian,
I do own a "scout" rifle ... a Ruger Gunsite Scout. “Scout" is in quotes because mine is no longer set up as Col Cooper conceived it. It absolutely IS a good general purpose rifle however, and in my book, if one had to restrict the description of a scout rifle to two words that could be relatively well understood by the layperson, it would be a "general purpose" rifle. In *THAT* light, then both a carbine-length (16”-18”) Marlin 336 and a 16”-18” Springfield M1A Scout/SOCOM both qualify as Scout Rifles. I ditched the Ruger's OEM flashhider and substituted a Griffin muzzle brake with a taper mount for a form 1 can I built. The 16” barrel made the gun too loud anyway, but even if not suppressing it, the muzzle brake is very effective at subduing .308 recoil.
With my Ruger, I removed the rear sight and the OEM rail, and substituted a XS Sight Systems rail with integrated ghost ring rear sight that bridges top of the receiver. The OEM steel mags are useless because they can’t be top-loaded while in the gun anyway; but Ruger's own aftermarket polymer mags can take top-loaded rounds just like a PMAG can, while in the gun. Even with the rail bridging the top of the receiver it is possible to press a round into the magazine in-place, and of course, single rounds can always be fed into the open action and breach. Onto the rail, I have mounted a Vortex Viper PST II 2-10x32 FFP (Milrad reticle) in the traditional rearward position directly above the action. This provides 3.2" of eye relief, which is plenty. The scope is mounted to the rail using two Burris XTR quick detach rings. So although the iron sights aren’t usable with the scope mounted, a quick flip of two levers easily detaches the scope, giving access to the irons. But like you, I agree that, given the quality of modern optics, irons are a backup solution. One *SHOULD* know how to use them, but unless your optic somehow becomes unusable, a scope is a better solution than iron sights in almost any scenario.
Once I had finished tinkering with my Ruger and getting it set up so that it worked for ME in MY world, I realized that, by MY definition of a general purpose rifle being relatively light, short enough to be handy, reloadable on the fly through the ejection port, and chambered in a decent intermediate caliber, and having decent iron sights as well as the ability to mount an optic, I had at least 4 other rifles that fit that broadly defined "general purpose" rifle (5, if you count the M1A I sold years ago): an 18” barreled Marlin 336BL, a WASR-10/63, a SCAR 17S, and a beautiful little 1943 Inland M1 Carbine.....and those don’t include the various iterations of AR15s and other rifles I lost in a recent boating tragedy.
BTW, the first optic I put on that Ruger was a Leupold 1.5-5x33mm VX-R, mounted in a forward position on the OEM rail. That scope now sits on my Marlin, in a modified rearward position, also mounted on an XS Sight Systems scout rail, with quick detach rings. And I must say, *THAT* particular scope is an excellent choice for that application.
I am a great admirer of Col Cooper's in his capacity as both a gun guru and a writer, but I do think he got a little bit into the weeds on his concept, and sort of forgot that what *HIS* "Scout Rifle" concept was really, was a just a starting place for others to develop good general purpose rifles better suited to their own individual needs-while still adhering to some general guidelines of handiness, sufficient caliber, versatility, and reloading and sighting options.
I think it would be interesting for you to interview the author and start a discussion on not only his book, but the evolution of the “scout rifle” concept.
My very first scout rifle was a Winchester model 94 with a forward mounted scope. Ruger Frontier rifle was a great test bed for optic’s have purchased many scout scopes and pistol scopes. The problem was getting a good sight picture. Since the proliferation of LPVOs. Scout scopes are rendered obsolete. The desert Tech SRS is a great scout rifle.
I always figured the ideal setup for a scout rifle would be a modern adjustable scope and an offset red dot sight for snap shooting and peripheral vision
I know it's a "pseudo-scout" rifle because of where the scope mounts, but I picked up a Ruger American Ranch rifle a while back, and it's become my favorite all-rounder. It's so much easier to carry something that short and light, it's as accurate as you'd ever need (even out past 300yds), 7.62x39 has enough power for me, and it feels great to shoulder and shoot. For what I do, it blows away a full size/traditional rifle.
I got really sold on the scout rifle concept when I was a kid and bought the 18" stainless ruger gsr and put the burris 2-7x long eye relief scope. Love the rifle, but a modern lpvo like a 1-8x is a much more practical fit.
for a modern scout rifle the springfield armoury waypoint sounds like a good place to look especially regarding weight savings. Accurate, in a capable calibre especially for longer range, light, definitely worth looking into
Hi Ian. Was wondering if you have ever published an inventory of your library. Id definitely like more book reviews, but a forgotten weapons reading list would be fun.
Interesting take on the subject. It parallels the ‘ranch rifle’ concept as well.
Funny thing here: There's really nothing new or innovative about the "scout rifle." Dad's, and Grandad's, and Great Grandad's Marlin .30-30 with a 3-9 power scope is just a half step away from the "scout rifle." You can easily carry it for days because it's light (~7.5 lb) and compact and balances well, it's legal everywhere (except maybe Canada), has a cartridge that will stop anything you encounter in the deer woods back east, and can be loaded/unloaded without knocking the scope. If you have that 3-9x mounted on tall rings, you can even use the iron sights for snap shots. 6+1 in the tube magazine is nothing to scoff at either. The specific rifle and caliber get a touch heavier out west, but it's still an 8 lb combination and will still knock down anything you might reasonably encounter (including moose).
Take a look at the Wehrmacht's Kar 98K with ZF41. It's like Cooper described a shortened version of that.
Today the Tikka CTR stands a true general purpose rifle. A bit heavy, indeed. But it gets almost every job done from 10 to 1000 meters, is readily available and even made with a true lefthanded action, a big deal to 15% of all shooters.
And for safari's something like a Marlin 1895 in .45-70, which can (and have, although the modern legality depends on country) take bison and elephant. He was trying to adapt those ideas to "modern" rifles, basically 100 years later.
Slight Nit;
You need to remember that "Scout Rifle" was new... about 30-40 years ago and it was a distillation of all the things learned from older rifles and usage like your Father's and Grandfather's guns, compiled into a single dedicated and purpose built package.
Guns have come a wee bit more advanced since then and experience concentrated in such firearms have been used in other, newer firearms, the WWSD integrated bipod, low power scope variant forex.
ITS STILL LEGAL IN CANADA
@@Kombereloni "compiled into a single dedicated and purpose built package"
That's the problem in my opinion. Its concept was for a general purpose rifle, but it has to many criteria that makes it a dedicated purpose build. The concept was mostly proposed by one person for his personal ideal, therefore it is not so "refined".
The scout rifle criteria was meet by many rifle before its existence so it is not "new" neither.
Soviet Mosin M38/44/59 Carbines are all 1m (40") in length and have 0.5m (20") barrel, weight less than 4kg.
English Lee Enfield No.5, 1m length, 0.48m (19") barrel and weight less than 4kg.
French MAS-36, 1m length, 0.575m (22") barrel and weight less than 4kg.
Their ammunitions are very good for most hunting game. If they use composite stock instead of wood, they will weight even less. These are the mass manufactured rifles, there are more than that for sure.
Jeff Cooper addressed almost every issue people have with the rifle. He did not say the Steyr Scout was the quintessential Scout rifle. He did not like everything about it, mainly the inability to load from stripper clips if need be. He also acknowledged that the most common chamberings, .308 and 7mm-08 were not up to the task of taking dangerous game and that was better left to the .376 Steyr “Dragoon” Scout.
Karamojo Bell famously took over 1000 elephants and all manor of other game with the 7mm Mauser/275 Rigby so the 7mm or 7.62 is not inadequate, but perhaps the hunter is.
Cooper above all knew that skill and proficiency was what wins the day, not bigger guns with Moon scopes. Cooper advocated something most of us cannot fathom, that is owning just a few really great guns and that is all a man would need for his entire like.
Coopers own Scout was a Remington 600 before the Steyr was made. He liked the Steyr and certainly his ideas were instrumental in its development, but he was not the designer. The Scout was the closest any maker had to Col Coopers vision of a Scout that could be bought off the rack and not need to built by a gunsmith.
I still think there is merit to the Scout concept. If you don’t then don’t buy one. I still suggest anyone who is a student of the rifle and the pistol read Cooper before passing harsh judgement.
Coming from someone who used to use aperture sights exclusively: I see the scout scope as an improvement over aperture sights. FOV obstruction is about the same, but there’s the added benefit of some magnification and better viewing in lower light situations.
Nice discussion. Food for thought. Red dot w magnifier is a thought as well, and 6.5 Grendel for game hunting. Other setup could be what is on T. Rex, a variable scope with a canted side mount red dot. Practice, practice, practice. Then there is the Elcan Specter 1x4! Take the Africa restriction out of the mix and you can do all this on an AR platform.
Every time I hear the term ‘Scout rifle’ and see some fairly cool looking gun like the Steyr I always think to myself, “dang that looks cool”, with my next immediate thought being, “wow this far forward scope is really not easy or convenient to use”.
im left handed shooter. i grew up in Alaska with little to no option for lefthanded shooting. i learned to shoot more with intuition/reaction. and when i got my hands on a long eye relief scope left handed rifle i turned into a god with speed and accuracy of my shooting. very situational way to realize all the benefits of a scout rife. but its what works best for me now.
Would this be an appropriate item for InRange to examine several rifles that fit the overall definition of 'scout rifle' while flexing scope location, iron sights and caliber. Oddly to be honest the first thing that popped into my head was a "project lightning' style shoot out.
This most definitely. There are a great many times when you will find that you can't rely on documentation, common gospel, or the casual opinions of others to answer a technically-structured question. There's nothing wrong with resorting to answering questions by way of independent experimental analysis.
That’s basically what they did with WWSD.
@@andywood6376 Well yeah, but it would be nice for a scout rifle concept
The issue that many people take with the Scout concept is that it’s not necessarily perfect for everything. Yes, plenty of things could be done to make it a better hunting rifle, plenty of things can be done to make it a better target rifle, and plenty of things could be done to make it a better combat rifle. Modern technology has changed the game as far as Cooper’s original specs go, but the core concept is a light, handy rifle that you can use with reasonable effectiveness for any task you can reasonably expect to face. And that concept I think has quite a lot of merit. A light AR10 with a quality LPVO I think would make an excellent scout rifle.
Cooper didn’t use a semi auto because the ones available in a sufficient caliber at the time were too heavy. Ian touched on the scope, but the main thing was that variable power optics at the time Cooper was developing the concept were too fragile. Both of those problems have since been solved. I’m a huge scout rifle fan and have one that is ALMOST to Cooper’s spec, but personally I believe that Jeff Cooper would have jumped at the chance to use what is available to us today as long as it was proven to be durable and reliable.
Is it just me or has the scout scopes niche been filled by the red dot and holosights.
If you mount them far enough out, they make for a reasonable half-assed "scout scope," but I suspect most people won't do that. It is a small step outside of the usual comfort zone to have an optic six+ inches from your face, but once you've adapted, it's actually somewhat nice. I'm not a scout rifle fan boy, really, though I made a different sort of half-assed scout rifle via one of my AR uppers.
*niche, more commonly pronounced [neesh]
If you're also including a magnifier, probably.
Not true. Red dots do not work long range
The Scout scope provides the optimum blend of rapid acquisition at close range and long range accuracy
I've always thought of the traditional scout rifle setup as essentially competitive with a scoped .30-30, but they can reach out a bit further which is handy. It would be fun to hunt with a steyr scout or the ruger one, but they're expensive for what they achieve. You can get both a maverick 88 and Remington model 700/Ruger American for less money and fill even more roles
Had a feeling the WWSD would make an appearance!
Just one more very interesting and educational episode keep the great content coming Awesome work
The " scout rifle concept " Rifle always struck me as the musings of an old Man. A question that should have been asked 50 years before but nobody cared to.
As I recall reading. The scout rifle was to be for military Scouts. Thus the name " Scout." Light weight but probably won't need to be used. But if so only for defense and run/ Hide. Or hide from the enemy you are scouting and fill your moose tag if you see a Moose.
So you equip yourself with a bolt action rifle then go scout the Ho Chi Minh trail. And if seen by the enemy, defend yourself with a bolt gun.
But why not an m16? a 30 carbine? An M14? Or even a model 94- 3030?
Cooper did a lot of great things. The scout rifle concept was Not one of them.
Best Wishes! M.H.
Another very insightful video. I'm an admitted Cooper fanboy but I'm very open to honest discussion of the "received doctrine" from The Jeff. I have a couple of scouts and love them and their detractors. Well done indeed.
Ian, Coopers interest in African hunting came pretty late in his life, long after Cooper made developed the concept. As to weight, the reason for bolt-actioned rifles vs semi-autos was primarily due to weight. Cooper several times wished he could find a lever actioned rifle that took what he called an acceptable cartridge. He was fan of the Savage lever action.
The Scout rifle was not initially designed with Africa in mind. Many of the rifles Cooper used in his initial design were military carbines, mountain troops magazine, etc.
Later advocates of Cooper's ideas concentrate on hunting, where the Scout Rifle was designed to be an 'all-around' rifle.
Remember you're examining a book written about Coopers concept and not from Coopers writings. It's kinda like looking at Stoners designs 50 years later and looking his concepts based upon the modern interpretations.
Look at your WWSD series and expositions about the return to Stoner's initial ideas.
BTW, I had purchased an old Remington 660 back in the 1970s which was one of the initial candidates of his conversions. So I had a pseudo-Scout Rifle, but I sold the rifle in the early 80s. But then again I'm not running around in the wilds of Arizona (as Cooper did for quite a while) or Canada either.
"Cooper several times wished he could find a lever actioned rifle that took what he called an acceptable cartridge. He was fan of the Savage lever action."
Seems like a 99 in .300 savage or .308 or a Winchester 88 would fit the bill.
Charles Adams his african Safari hunts may have come later in life, but the scout rifle concept was clearly created from a big game hunting perspective. No military scout has used a bolt action rifle for his weapon since before WWII. Even in Korea and Vietnam, scout units much preferred the M1/M2 carbine and XM177 to any bolt gun.
I became enamored with the Scout Rifle concept couple of years ago mainly based around the Jeff Cooper lore etc. I decided to buy one and when I began my hunt for a suitable "scout rifle" I found myself repeatedly asking exactly what you mention and that is "What practical purpose will this rifle serve?" and I could come up with none. Ultimately I decided to pass on the idea. Though, I could be convince to seriously look at that Styer Scout just because it looks so awesome.
With regards to people not liking some of your views on this, anyone capable of objective critical thinkin……. oh wait.... this is youtube…. you got a bunker?
Yes, and he has scotch, so his family is all set.
@RocketSurgeon Oh boy, just what we needed, another excuse for people to be a self-righteous jackass.
Col. Cooper had a vision for his scout rifle and that's OK, but this concept was done long before in the Remington Model-8 in .35 Remington. It gave the shooter 5 fast semi-auto shots (being a long recoil system) with fast stripper clip top loading. It's 200 grain Nickle jacketed bullet at 2000+ fps would easily blow a hole through 5/16 steel at 100 yards like a hot knife. It was an intermediate round capable of taking any game without beating up the shooter with the proper recoil pad. I have seen a Model-8 with the barrel jackets rear sight removed and a short rail silver solder to it with an Eo-Tech red-dot reflex sight mounted in it's place. This while still keeping the Lyman #6 folding peep on the receiver tang as a back-up. The beauty of this gun is it is both light, handy and can be taken down to half it length without tools.
I’m assuming Jeff Cooper’s willingness to say that the Steyr rifle is THE scout rifle is due to a possible financial interest. I could be completely wrong though
I remember reading someplace soon after it entered production that he wasn't totally happy with the way they did it. He didn't like the bolt handle(he wanted the traditional ball on the end) and he thought it was a touch too heavy. But that overall he was happy that it was in production. I would have to guess it was in G&A. But it's been 30ish years.
My understanding is that by that stage he was really happy to have *someone* make it, and it not be junk.
I have an M1A with a 2-7x32 Vortex scout scope on it. At 2x magnification it's almost as good as a reflex sight and excellent for snap shots. At 7x, as Ian said, the eye box gets pretty small. It's not much use at 7x unless you're shooting from a bench or another very stable platform.
Getting the scope out of the way of the action does allow for clip reloading (which is fun, if almost totally unnecessary due to the detachable magazine), but it also gives much better access to the action in case of a jam, or just a press check. So I would say there's benefit beyond just the reloading side of things (but not much, especially on a bolt action)
The balance aspect is definitely helpful on the M1A.
So I think the concept is good for the M1A, setting aside whether an M1A (scope or none) is a good choice for any serious purpose. Given how I use bolt action rifles, I can't imagine wanting a scout scope. I would always either want a reflex sight or a traditional scope, even if it meant giving up the good weight balance point.
I've always loved that gun. Would be perfect for taking out on your horse to do some trail riding and camping with. I would get one in a second if I lived in the States. Cheers for the upload.
The whole concept of the "scout" rifle seems a bit pretentious tbh. Its just a rifle with a focus on mobility same as carbines have always been, except for the scope mount. Im not sold on that though.
Anton Grahn absolutely. There were better solutions even in the 70’s, and now it’s nothing but a quaint pet project from 50 years ago.
I use a 2X pistol scope and it's very useful, extremely quick to get on target, and you still see most everything while aiming.
Never cared for the scout idea. But I have broken and seen broken many modern scope on horseback and in jeeps. I always like and recommend bu iron sights.
Wow thanks! I was just thinking about the scout rifle concept. Really good timing! Thank youuuuuuuuuuu
I like the scout rifle concept. enough so that I built my own pseudo-scout from a bubba'd No4 Lee-Enfield. However, I do agree that it has been rendered obsolescent by the vastly improved quality and durability of modern optics, and the increased commonality of detachable magazines on bolt-action rifles. Add in the fact that modern semi-auto rifles are far more durable, reliable, and most importantly more accurate than they were in the 1960's - 1970's when Cooper developed the scout rifle, and it's really not an essential piece of equipment anymore.
I'm not going to give up my scout, but I'm also not going to build or buy any more of them.
I use a normal mounted scope on my steyr scout and really love it as a deer stalking rifle. I was tempted to try the forward mount optic but didn't want to take the risk of wasted money if I couldn't get on with it.
I'm old enough to remember when Col. Cooper was writing about these, and I thought for a long time about them as well. Cooper sold out when he endorsed the Steyr rifle and I never considered it to be a "real" Scout based on the stated specs required to be one. Steyr paid Jeff Cooper for the privilege of using his name in their ads. This wasn't the only time Col. Cooper did this. He railed against "Crunchentickers" in favor of the 1911 as the ideal fighting pistol. Yet when it came time for him to get a good 10mm built, he endorsed the Bren Ten. A "Crunchenticker". Why? He didn't know it would ultimately fail.
A real "Scout" rifle was not only supposed to be a hunting rifle. It was to be actually used by Scouts, operating behind enemy lines.
Time and technology has rendered many of Col. Cooper's ideas obsolete. Cooper himself apparently didn't believe in them enough to stay true to his own writing on the subject.
I sold my custom Scout 20 years ago and never looked back. I don't miss it.
Cooper did a lot of good work in regards to modern firearms and firearms technique.....he was also a hardcore self-promoter and a blowhard at times.....and some people can't accept both of these things...hence Ian's comments on it being like a religious issue.
@@KClouisville I totally agree. Always liked his writing. I just took it with a grain of salt. Or sometimes a cup full. Nevertheless, he had been there and done that for sure
You’re absolutely right Ian.
When I got into hunting I didn’t want to use a regular hunting rifle. They’re just boring to me. So I settled on a 24/47. I didn’t want to drill and tap it so I got a little pic rail that replaces the rear sight leaf and put a vortex 2-7 on there. Cool gun, but the eye box was super tight, cheek weld became a chin weld, and the optic had to be farther back than expected so I couldn’t use clips anyway. It’s a very niche setup and in this day and age there’s no real reason to use it. Unless you want to be different.
Upvoted for the M1 Carbine in the background.
Ian - I agree 100%. As much as I want to love the idea of the scout rifle, I do believe it is largely obsolete, especially if you never leave the Continental US like many of us do. Personally, I think a proper AR-10 will can most of the criteria of the scout rifle for most people in most parts of North America.
That said, I love the idea behind the scout rifle, just like I love shooting the 1911. Has largely been replaced by modern striker fired pistols, but still has a soft spot in many hearts. Simply put, there are lighter, more reliable, higher capacity, faster shooting options that do the same job.
Your What Would Stoner Do? project confirms that... can you build a gun that meets most of these criteria on a semi automatic platform? Absolutely. And that is why the scout rifle concept is largely obsolete, yet still brings back a sense of nostalgia for many.
2 things that I'd like to make mention of.
The first is the top loading. You make the point that the magazine is detachable, so that a moot issue, but i believe the thing Mr Cooper was talking about was being able to single load cartridges, keeping the magazine supply in reserve for emergencies, hence the magazine cut off stipulation.
The 2nd is about the AR10. The idea behind the scout rifle is a rifle that can be kept with you, and beyond Africas regulations, you also have to consider the states of our union. A rifle that can travel with me is limited if its illegal in states i need to pass through (even with FOPA your still looking at possible jail time, because if the cop arrests you on friday, you dont see a judge till monday). Regardless of anyones views on the legitimacy of those laws, it is reality, and a scout rifle is a rifle you should be able to have with you, wherever you roam, thus i can see why the AR10 would be discounted by the author.
Other than that, i agree with you. Adhering to one mans idea of a rifle is silly, and you should have what works best for you.
I'm pretty sure there are states and jurisdictions where ANY firearm or ammunition of any kind will land you on the wrong side of the bars. Those places that require FIOD cards for instance. While you may have a better chance of avoiding jail with a traditional bolt action rifle than an "assault weapon" 🙄, I'd still just avoid such places at all cost.
It's the last line I think needs to be repeated a few times for the fans of this idea.
You make the rifle you need to do the work you need it to. You need, not what someone else says you need. If that's high magnification optics, that's it, if it's low mag, wide field of view, get that instead. Right tool for the job.
@HALO 2304 I have to pass through MA CT and NY to get out to see friends in MO, worse if im going to FL. FOPA or the firearms protection act, protects us legally from passing through those states, even with my AR and standard mags and stuff. But, tell that to the cop on the side of the road. Much easier to convince them your intent isnt malicious with the bolt gun. That being said, i still travel with my AR through those states when i have to, just disassembled (even the mags), and with parts in several locked containers, and i dont sleep in them, ever, i wait to get to at least PA or WV. Its still a risk though, esp in MA and NY.
@@Milksteak177 Definitely in MA. That's what's keeping me from bring my firearms up when I visit friends in Boston.
Jeff Cooper did not eliminate a semi auto scout. He stated that at that time there was not one that met the criteria of weight, but in the future there might be one even the 3.5 kilo weight of the steyr with a bipod and magazine storage in the butt is tough to meet with an ar10 with out those things.
I started using light components in the 1960s, and built a .308 rifle weighing about 5 pounds. I carried it in various parts of Alaska. It was short and handy. I later handled Cooper's rifle, finding it to be heavier, and not nearly as handy. The concept is a good one. Worth repeating.
"Has to be capable of taking a moose."
What about a cougar? You know, 43, 5'6, about 140lbs...
To quote Paul Harrell (from memory, poorly) “if it’s that kinda cougar buying her a few drinks probably works better than shooting”
I put a mid length scope on 3 of my rifles. Took them off because they just didn’t look right. Did leave a red dot on a m1 carbine to make it accurate and fun to shoot
I think, so far, the only person of any prominence to actively rethink the subject is Chris Baker at Lucky Gunner, and I think his thoughts mirror yours in a lot of ways. Y'all should chat
Agree. The Lucky Gunner video about the Scout Rifle, revisited is outstanding and mirrors many of Ian’s observations.
Yes! I think Ian is right on the mark here. I originally had the idea to do the "rethinking the scout" video partly because I noticed that the Steyr didn't meet Cooper's criteria but Cooper gave it his blessing anyway. I think we should take that as a hint that the scout concept was more of a set of guidelines that can be bent to fit one's priorities according the rifle's intend use.
I was going to comment halfway through that "couldn't you do a great deal of this with modern materials and an AR platform? Ala- the WWSD rifle.?" And then you went into it. Thanks!
Hoping to hear more about the new WWSD soon.
Can we get a comparison between scout rifles and regular hunting rifles with standard scopes? Could be a cool InRange video, testing the capabilities of both concepts.
Sadly, neither Ian nor Karl are into hunting. Yet hunting guns are a very rich and interesting topic. And a clean, ethical kill is much more demanding on the shooter than punching paper holes.
J. Peters I’m guessing you don’t do much dynamic shooting. The drills that Ian runs in 2 gun matches are much more difficult that hitting a 12” target on a square range from 200m.
@@jamesustler2037 Hunting ungulates in mountainous terrain can be as or more demanding as action shooting sports. With the backcountry element included even harder.
Been to Gunsite....A few times and had Dinner with Cooper a couple of years before he passed. I got the Ruger Gunsite Scout right when they came out and mounted a Leupold Mark 4 M-2 non-scout scope in 2.5-8x. Add a SilencerCo Omega-300 and it works for me. Very accurate, (Sub MOA with match ammo).