The short story as the longest form of fiction one will read in one sitting is brilliant. I never thought of it that way. I think of my chapters as short stories and my parts as novellas when I write novels.
Many of the classics which have stood the test of time and we consider to be novels, are in fact Novellas. Some examples being..... The Old Man and the Sea: 27,000 words1 Animal Farm: 29,000 words. Of Mice and Men: 30,000 words. The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde: 25,000 words. Breakfast at Tiffany's: 30,000 words. Three Men in a Boat: 25,250 words. How many young, or first time authors are discouraged by this arbitrary word count and how many 'cracking good stories' are lost by these factory assembly line demands. As with all things nowadays, it seems quantity not quality is the rule.
My longest novel was 600 pages after formatting it for publishing on paper on Amazon. To my great dismay 600 pages is above their page count limit, so I had to make the font smaller than in the other books in the series, which was a real downer.
@@xChikyx 215000 words plus illustrations. I like to print my books in a 12 points font, which is larger than in most books. It makes for a more relaxed read.
Nah. Just go full unedited Sanderson mode! Nothing hits like repeating & flat dialogue, pointless world building, characters that never develop and lasts for thousands of pages! Instant millions! Being facetious of course. Thanks for the video!!
There's also a spectrum of episodic to serialized novels with the same setting/characters/world, etc. in terms of how well each book functions as a standalone, whether changes carry over from book to book, how important it is to read them in order, etc.
This explains why I like and have no problem writing novellas, but struggle to write novels: I like focusing on one main plot point and only a few major characters. Well-explained, useful video.
I've found I've struggled when trying to write full fledge novels. When I complete a story, I hardly ever go over 40k words, which for a good portion of my writing hobby/career, whichever you wish to call it, was perfectly fine. However I've found how much I've disliked how short my stories are and they've disheartened me in a sense. Part of it for me is a major lack of really good world building which I'm working on, and part of it is me focusing more on the action
I like short stories and novellas because they get straight to the point and they don't waste my time on filler scenes and characters I don't care about.
I enjoy thinking about how the length of my books will affect readers. I have a romance where I really want the readers to analyze and digest the emotions of the two protagonists, but since it's also a fantasy, there are a few subplots. I think it will be around 150-180k words, but I'm unsure. It would have been a lot shorter if not for dual POV. I also have a planned shorter trilogy where each book borders just between novella and novel. It's true! I believe I do have features of both mediums. I also believe the first book was not as "interesting" as the other two due to how stagnant it was, so I tried to half-ass it. Working on revamping it entirely now and I'm finally enjoying the direction. Its supposed to be more snappy than my romance and less focused on the larger world. Very isolated setting and plot for all three books, with one overarching problem that looms over everyone for the series. Love your videos! I tend to overanalyze and I love seeing a video that encapsulates something I was thinking about but couldnt fully understand on my own.
The longest form of a book is called an epic,not a novel, a novel stops being a novel around the 90k word mark, anything after that may be considered an epic.
I don’t get Hemingway. I see the artistry of his bare bones stories but they seem limp and flaccid to me. I understand less is more: I grew up with radio and I well remember the awful letdown when I saw the Lone Ranger on tv for the first time. It was nowhere near as compelling as it was on radio. Hemingway’s stories leave me unsatisfied, like being in bed with an emotionally crippled man who is afraid to give of himself. Surely there’s a place for fiction that’s rich, full bodied and generous to its readers
To all new writers thinking about making a lengthy novel. Especially those with adhd. Don't, yet. You will burn out by the end of it and hate your story. Do short stories instead. If a short story is good enough it turns into a lengthy one by default because you will not know how to stop once you have a good idea. It is better to tell short stories because most stories are short and don't need to be anything else. I always start with a bunch of ideas in a document and give each idea a title, and a description. And then i write the first draft under each. Sometimes the stories are just 10k words, and on rare occasions they turn into novel length. Sometimes they are related and intertwine. What I'm saying is; The biggest hurdle as a writer is to finish the story, so why make it harder for yourself than necessary?
Arguably, this is good advice. I started with shorter fiction (mostly short stories), then made a couple of novelettes and novellas, and finally came to writing novels.
Help please. I just finished my Romantasy, The Brownies War in which the little people give Charlemagne a drubbing at Roncesvalles. Problem is it’s only 64,000 words and everywhere I read romantasy should come in at 80k-120k. Carl advises against stuffing a completed work with fillers to expand word count. Is such a short work marketable? 5:52
There's a pretty solid tradition in the Finnish literary field that the only way for speculative fiction to get published is through flash and short story competitions. I know this isn't rare, but what is is there is actually next to no domestic novel length fantasy or scifi getting traditionally published (that isn't for teens or children). And I think IT SHOWS when the rare specfic novel does come out - character motivations rarely carry through the whole plot, and the plot is mostly preamble with all the action happening in the last 20 pages. 😭 Pleaseeeeee writers, understand your format better aaaaa
I'm a pantser. My character come to mind fully formed and already imbued with their own initiative. How am I supposed to get a novel's worth out of that?
I, too, am a panster. I like to play god and throw challenges at my characters to see what they do, kind of like they are the lab rats and I am the scientist. It doesn't all make it into the novel, but sometimes something amazing can come out of it. I am not published, so take this as professional writing advice, but it sure is fun. My biggest challenge, as a pantser, is figuring out how to end the story, which is part of why I'm not published, I can't finish anything.
I thought a lot about this video and realized I write all of these formats in the course of my novels. I'll even add "universe" and "series" at the long end. The universe is the overall world in which all my novels exist. Mine is basically a romanticized heroic version of history. Then there are series. I currently have only one, but even that can be broken up into an American Civil War trilogy, a prequel, and then sequels that take place afterward. Then there are my novels, which are the standard unit of publishing for me. Most of my novels are broken up into parts. These, I have characterized before as novellas contained within the novel. They have their own story arcs, climaxes, and denouements. I suppose within the parts are "novelettes." These are typically two to three-chapter arcs. Usually, a major battle will take a few chapters to get through and tell its own story. Then, like I said in a previous comment, I treat my chapters as short stories or as Netflix episodes. I even give them titles. Finally, my scenes are usually around five hundred words, sometimes longer or shorter. These, I would think, are close to flash fiction. I usually write one in each sitting. I don't know, what you guys think? Do you segment your writing like this, or am I overthinking?
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Novelette, Novella, and Novel: the three evolutions of the singular Book type Pokemon.
The short story as the longest form of fiction one will read in one sitting is brilliant. I never thought of it that way. I think of my chapters as short stories and my parts as novellas when I write novels.
It's not about length, its about how you use it
It's a perfectly adequate length, thank you very much
LMFAOROTFSML 🤣
Geez, do I have to be the guy to add the "that's what she said" comment...?
Yep
Many of the classics which have stood the test of time and we consider to be novels, are in fact Novellas. Some examples being.....
The Old Man and the Sea: 27,000 words1
Animal Farm: 29,000 words.
Of Mice and Men: 30,000 words.
The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde: 25,000 words.
Breakfast at Tiffany's: 30,000 words.
Three Men in a Boat: 25,250 words.
How many young, or first time authors are discouraged by this arbitrary word count and how many 'cracking good stories' are lost by these factory assembly line demands. As with all things nowadays, it seems quantity not quality is the rule.
I love writing flash fiction and drabbles. Great way to experiment with prose and story telling without the commitment of a novel.
This topic deserves trilogy from you.
My longest novel was 600 pages after formatting it for publishing on paper on Amazon. To my great dismay 600 pages is above their page count limit, so I had to make the font smaller than in the other books in the series, which was a real downer.
how many words was that? :o
@@xChikyx 215000 words plus illustrations. I like to print my books in a 12 points font, which is larger than in most books. It makes for a more relaxed read.
@@andreasboe4509 oh, cool... I didnt know amazon had a page count limit... my book is WAY over that, but I will need to print on big hardcover
Nah. Just go full unedited Sanderson mode! Nothing hits like repeating & flat dialogue, pointless world building, characters that never develop and lasts for thousands of pages! Instant millions!
Being facetious of course.
Thanks for the video!!
I'm always here for some sander slander
There's also a spectrum of episodic to serialized novels with the same setting/characters/world, etc. in terms of how well each book functions as a standalone, whether changes carry over from book to book, how important it is to read them in order, etc.
This explains why I like and have no problem writing novellas, but struggle to write novels: I like focusing on one main plot point and only a few major characters. Well-explained, useful video.
I've found I've struggled when trying to write full fledge novels. When I complete a story, I hardly ever go over 40k words, which for a good portion of my writing hobby/career, whichever you wish to call it, was perfectly fine. However I've found how much I've disliked how short my stories are and they've disheartened me in a sense.
Part of it for me is a major lack of really good world building which I'm working on, and part of it is me focusing more on the action
Do NOT be disheartened ! Look at the comment i made a few minutes ago.
This of yours is the best video on the subject. Thanks!
I like short stories and novellas because they get straight to the point and they don't waste my time on filler scenes and characters I don't care about.
I enjoy thinking about how the length of my books will affect readers. I have a romance where I really want the readers to analyze and digest the emotions of the two protagonists, but since it's also a fantasy, there are a few subplots. I think it will be around 150-180k words, but I'm unsure. It would have been a lot shorter if not for dual POV.
I also have a planned shorter trilogy where each book borders just between novella and novel. It's true! I believe I do have features of both mediums. I also believe the first book was not as "interesting" as the other two due to how stagnant it was, so I tried to half-ass it. Working on revamping it entirely now and I'm finally enjoying the direction. Its supposed to be more snappy than my romance and less focused on the larger world. Very isolated setting and plot for all three books, with one overarching problem that looms over everyone for the series.
Love your videos! I tend to overanalyze and I love seeing a video that encapsulates something I was thinking about but couldnt fully understand on my own.
The longest form of a book is called an epic,not a novel, a novel stops being a novel around the 90k word mark, anything after that may be considered an epic.
Very informative video as always. Great guidance for preparing my fiction product for maximum impact. Thank you so much.
I don’t get Hemingway. I see the artistry of his bare bones stories but they seem limp and flaccid to me. I understand less is more: I grew up with radio and I well remember the awful letdown when I saw the Lone Ranger on tv for the first time. It was nowhere near as compelling as it was on radio. Hemingway’s stories leave me unsatisfied, like being in bed with an emotionally crippled man who is afraid to give of himself. Surely there’s a place for fiction that’s rich, full bodied and generous to its readers
Good stuff, Carl. Thank you!
To all new writers thinking about making a lengthy novel. Especially those with adhd.
Don't, yet. You will burn out by the end of it and hate your story.
Do short stories instead.
If a short story is good enough it turns into a lengthy one by default because you will not know how to stop once you have a good idea.
It is better to tell short stories because most stories are short and don't need to be anything else.
I always start with a bunch of ideas in a document and give each idea a title, and a description.
And then i write the first draft under each.
Sometimes the stories are just 10k words, and on rare occasions they turn into novel length.
Sometimes they are related and intertwine.
What I'm saying is;
The biggest hurdle as a writer is to finish the story, so why make it harder for yourself than necessary?
Arguably, this is good advice. I started with shorter fiction (mostly short stories), then made a couple of novelettes and novellas, and finally came to writing novels.
There’s also web novels and web series, which is a whole new kettle of writing (like Mushoku Tensei or Re:Zero)
Help please. I just finished my Romantasy, The Brownies War in which the little people give Charlemagne a drubbing at Roncesvalles. Problem is it’s only 64,000 words and everywhere I read romantasy should come in at 80k-120k. Carl advises against stuffing a completed work with fillers to expand word count. Is such a short work marketable? 5:52
There's a pretty solid tradition in the Finnish literary field that the only way for speculative fiction to get published is through flash and short story competitions. I know this isn't rare, but what is is there is actually next to no domestic novel length fantasy or scifi getting traditionally published (that isn't for teens or children). And I think IT SHOWS when the rare specfic novel does come out - character motivations rarely carry through the whole plot, and the plot is mostly preamble with all the action happening in the last 20 pages. 😭 Pleaseeeeee writers, understand your format better aaaaa
My novel is 350K, sequel is currently over 280K and i think it's still missing 1/4 hahaha
What genre is it?
@@H-otApp-le-Pies 1st one Survival Sci-Fi, sequel is just Sci-Fi, action maybe? not sure
@@5Gburn the cheapest quote I got for it was $18K, so no thanks hahahah
The book has basically 3 parts, but the arch overall can't be split i think
@@xChikyxHave you tried beta readers?
@@dukeofdenver yes, but no one has yet commited to the entire novel
I'm a pantser. My character come to mind fully formed and already imbued with their own initiative. How am I supposed to get a novel's worth out of that?
I, too, am a panster. I like to play god and throw challenges at my characters to see what they do, kind of like they are the lab rats and I am the scientist. It doesn't all make it into the novel, but sometimes something amazing can come out of it. I am not published, so take this as professional writing advice, but it sure is fun. My biggest challenge, as a pantser, is figuring out how to end the story, which is part of why I'm not published, I can't finish anything.
Carl, my story has 24 books that are 80,000+ each. What category am I in?! 😭😭😭
😁
I thought a lot about this video and realized I write all of these formats in the course of my novels. I'll even add "universe" and "series" at the long end. The universe is the overall world in which all my novels exist. Mine is basically a romanticized heroic version of history. Then there are series. I currently have only one, but even that can be broken up into an American Civil War trilogy, a prequel, and then sequels that take place afterward.
Then there are my novels, which are the standard unit of publishing for me.
Most of my novels are broken up into parts. These, I have characterized before as novellas contained within the novel. They have their own story arcs, climaxes, and denouements.
I suppose within the parts are "novelettes." These are typically two to three-chapter arcs. Usually, a major battle will take a few chapters to get through and tell its own story.
Then, like I said in a previous comment, I treat my chapters as short stories or as Netflix episodes. I even give them titles.
Finally, my scenes are usually around five hundred words, sometimes longer or shorter. These, I would think, are close to flash fiction. I usually write one in each sitting.
I don't know, what you guys think? Do you segment your writing like this, or am I overthinking?