What's your take on supercaps and hybrid tech? If you liked this video be sure to watch "Get Solar Energy Without Solar Panels On Your Home - Community Solar Explained": ruclips.net/video/buv-EE6IYaM/видео.html
We've been putting caps on race drones for years (to level out the stress we put on batteries through constant changes in acceleration, and have a smoother video signal), was honestly disappointed to learn my M3 did not have one :(
I've been trying to get this type of hybrid synergy going for years, I also think the graphene tech will play a huge role as well as ongoing improvement in the lithium theater. One day it might just prove Goodenough...😂
Pretty good video. But more information on (super)capacitor historic energy density trend and cost reduction over time would've been nice. (Weren't there a few laws named after people about that?) Also there is the supercapacitor based on soft contact lens material with an energy density rivaling that of early 2018 batteries: Alternative to traditional batteries moves a step closer to reality after exciting progress in supercapacitor technology by University of Surrey phys.org/news/2018-02-alternative-traditional-batteries-closer-reality.html Superdielectrics Ltd www.superdielectrics.com/ The video also neglected to mention the self-discharge of supercapacitors being a problem for replacing batteries. And another thing; development of 2D-materials (insulators, semiconductors and conductors for computer chips) might lead to very high energy dense supercapacitors. Also some companies compare their supercapacitor tech to lead-acid batteries. Lead-acid batteries are what the companies are trying to replace (thus it's a fair comparison) but lead-acid batteries have a lower energy density than lithium-ion batteries.
I've always considered batteries the achilles heel of EV transportation, if not the archaic electric power grid. I think supercapacitors just might make EV transportation technologies viable. Currently, they rely on subsidies and a lot of market interference. Battery technology won't go away, but I think supercapacitors will "take the load" off battery technology (pardon the pun) in the EV market. I wouldn't be shocked if they find a big role in mobile computing and even foster new technologies.
I'm a big fan of super caps and i really hope that some day they could reach just half the power density of li-ion batteries. I think a car that has half the range but you can charge in seconds or minutes would completely revolutionize the industry. No more range anxiety.
brednie. Super kondensatory mają wciąż 10x mniejsza gęstość energii od baterii litowych. Po drugie krzywa rozładowania kondensatora jest liniowa. W związku z tym trudno wykorzystać energię z kondensatorów.
@@alchemik2010 brednie. Technologia się wciąż rozwija. Mogą mieć mniejsza gęstość ale jeszcze jest wiele innych parametrów które wpływają na ich użyteczność w poszczególnych zastosowaniach. Żywotność, Cena za kWh, czas ładowania... A co do krzywej rozładowania można to skompensować voltage boosterami.
@@karolstopinski8350 Co jest brednią? fakty są bredniami? zastanów się. Jakie boostery? nawet przetwornica musi mieć jakiś minimalny próg napięcia. Po za tym przetwornica wysokoprądowa okaże się droższa niż te kondensatory.
@@alchemik2010 próbowałem dostosować swoją wypowiedź do twojej gdzie dyskusje zaczyna się od słowa brednie. W moich rejonach Polski dało się po ludzku z innymi dyskutować ale nie wiem jakie są zwyczaje w innych. Nie wiem wszystkiego na ten temat ale super kondensatory wydają mi się mieć potencjał nawet przy obecnych ograniczeniach.
The thing is SDD is better in any possible way but price that’s why they used a combination of both (to save costs). Now that SSD has become affordable enough, there is no point in using a worse technology. However, super capacitors are not better in every possible way than li-ion batteries. Therefore, it would require them to get improved to be a better alternative to li-ion batteries. However, capacitors are an ‘old’ technology and hasn’t got ‘much’ room for improvement whereas lithium is only taking off and it’s seeing improvements every year. This makes supercapacitors only suitable for certain applications. Here is a video about it, it was very interesting you make like it and learn some things: ruclips.net/video/-7T-6XdiRTw/видео.html
Hugo de Andrés for now it is, but not in the beginning. In the beginning it failed a lot, was very small and it was very expensive. Over time it improved a lot and the price wend down. It the same amount of R&D that went into SSD over the last years went into Supercaps i wonder how much it would improve.
Hey Matt... I think super capacitors could be used to recoup energy from the suspension dampening using cervos. The amount of energy a vehicle experiences with the road surface variance and grade, I believe there is some untapped potential for super capacitors.
Love Super Caps! Some people already replaced their 12V car battery with a supercap set. Like you said, in EV's it might be used as a hybrid for charging. But wait, there is more.......
Lovesupee some people already replaced Thor 12 car battery with a SuperCamp set like you said, in EV's it might be used as a hybrida for charging but wait there, ia more
@Alex Gibbs Nintendo's batteries tend to last really long times. I for one have 2 Gameboy Advance SP handhelds (the backlit ones that close lile the DS) which I purchased in 2004 and took one of em with me all the time and to this day they still hold 2 to 3 hours playtime.
Another amazing video Matt! I would be very interested in your take on Diamond Batteries. They seem like a great option for a long term solution but I'm sure there are many drawbacks. Have you looked at them recently?
thank you for making the distinction between specific energy and energy density. a lot of people try to use them interchangeably. Thank you for the video in general. I still believe supercaps will replace redox batteries. Hybridizing them is the first step. There will be some interstitial or other modification to improve energy density. The difficulty i see is supplying power at linear discharge rates. High frequency switching (IGBTs) in parallel to a load to keep the load supplied at a constant rate is a viable path i see.
I use a supercapacitor jump-pack to jumpstart boats. They're neat. Half the size and weight of the old style that had a motorcycle size battery in it, but it'll turn over a big diesel engine. Once. The upside is that you put it on the good battery and it charges back to full in a minute. That's really what they're good for putting out really high amps for a short time. They're never going to replace batteries. What they're good for is spike loads. It doesn't matter if they can only put out the power for two seconds if you're using it to go 0-60 in a Tesla.
I use the same for my car. This one: www.norauto.pt/p/booster-norauto-premium-sem-bateria-mf450-2054033.html?CatalogID=48599&CatalogCategoryName=48702 It charges with residual energy from a car battery (or using a 12v socket, or even by simply charging at home), which has nowhere near enough juice to start the car, but its plenty to charge the booster, and after a few short minutes, it can "spit out" 450 amps. It doesn't completely negates the need of having a set of booster cables and the help of another car if the battery is at zero, but since that scenario is unlikely, that supercap booster makes me less reliant on needing the help of others.
On my ebike, I am the super capacitor, I will pedal up to speed then use battery power to maintain that speed. This is also being used in RV ac units, reducing the power needed to kick start the compressor
I'm an automotive designer (styling). This was VERY helpful for me. Got me thinking about future concept vehicles. I'm going to pitch something to Skeleton that shows an open body styling that displays both the battery and the capacitors. FUN!
The car audio industry would like to say "welcome to the party" Super capacitors are great for charging and discharging quickly. They don't hold much energy compared to batteries. But like, this tech has been around for a long while. The only thing I see as new is the use of graphen, and I believe THAT has potential.
John Goodenough, the inventor of the lithium ion battery, is still working to this day towards a 'glass solid state battery' which is sure to win him the nobel prize yet again. It's supposed to have 2-5x the capacity of lithium ion, a higher temperature stability range, and much longer lifespan that apparently improves capacity over time instead of reduce. Funny story i'm distantly related to this man on my fathers side, I hope to someday visit him in Texas and pick his brain on the subject, course he's so busy i doubt he'd have time for me.
Just some info on battery life. I recently replaced my worn out lead acid batteries in my home solar system with lithium iron phosphate batteries. They are rated at 10,000+ full 100% to 0% charge cycles. With a daily full cycle those batteries should last over 27 years. BYD, the Chinese battery and EV manufacturer, has been using lithium iron phosphate batteries in their EVs. The batteries are heavier than lithium ion batteries but apparently Chinese drivers are not a concerned about long ranges. Tesla is now using similar batteries in the Model 3s they are building in Shanghai. 200 mile range. 10,000 cycles. That's two million mile battery.
Very interesting, 10,000 cycles from full to fully discharged? Does that imply that the original capacity remains also? I bet it doesn't but I would love to be wrong.
@@conmcgrath7502 I had to dig into the warranty a bit to answer your question. I learned that my claim was incorrect. It's not 10,000+ cycles at 100% depth of discharge but 10,000+ cycles at an 80% DOD. And the warranty declares the batteries "dead" if capacity drops to 60% of initial rating. So not as good as I had assumed, but as long as I don't drop below 20% (often) I should get well over 20 years service and for the last 20+ years I should have at least 61% of my original capacity. The nice thing about lithium batteries is that you can add a new cell to an older group and the old cells won't pull down the performance of the new cell. That's a problem with lead acid cells. So I might need a storage boost in 15-20 years so I can just add a third battery and be back where I started. What might that mean for an EV? Suppose you had an EV with a 250 mile range. You'd want to avoid dropping below 50 miles in normal driving. If you take only a few long trips per year you might be willing to take the charge closer to 0% and cut a little life off the long end. And toward the end of life for the batteries your range would have (maximally) drop from 250 miles to 150 mile. Not great but still fine for normal daily use. Not many of us expect to take long trips with 20 - 25 year old cars. But now! Since I posted that there's new data coming out of Jeff Dahn's battery lab. Dahn is Tesla's battery guru. His lab has been testing some lithium batteries continuously for three years. Charging and discharging day in and day out. So far they've managed 15,000 cycles so this isn't the final performance data. It's what they've found so far. The cells they are testing are divided into four groups. One group does full 100% discharges, one group does 75% discharges, a 50% discharge group, and a 25% discharge group. After 15,000 cycles the 25% and 50% discharge groups have lost no capacity. If you had a 250 mile range EV with these batteries and you almost always recharge before the range dropped below 125 miles you'd have as much range after 41 years of daily driving as you had when new. And that range might hold for decades more, we just don't know how long yet. The 75% and 100% discharge groups (250 mile range, drive to 'empty') and you'd lose 13% of the range by 41 years. From 250 miles to 218 miles for your 40 year old car. It looks like we will soon have EV batteries that last far longer than most cars. Will we buy new bodies and move our still good batteries into the new body? Or will we sell our batteries to companies that do grid storage? And, further. What will this mean for incorporating wind and solar on our grids. Tesla has figured out how to drop the cost of battery cells by over 50%, largely with new manufacturing techniques. So a much cheaper battery with incredible lifespans. Take the old cost for storing electricity in batteries. Cut it in half. Then cut it again by a much larger number due to batteries that will last decades. We need to see these batteries installed and operation in the real world but if the lab results to the real world then we're about to see a massive shift in how we generate electricity.
@@bobwallace9753 Thank you Bob for taking the time, quite the reply! I am still a skeptic, it's not that I don't believe you (and you seem better informed and more 'current' in your knowledge than I) but the various manufacturers have a way of presenting the most positive results in the most favorable way? For example, do the discharge tests reflect the power demands of the cells in a real world environment? Speaking of environment, how do they perform when it's sub-zero all night? Do the battery banks suffer from vibration over an extended time? Ref your own words regarding the warranty, another interpretation might be '10,000 cycles' if you never discharge below 80% and all bets are off if you dare to discharge below 60%? . I'm not trying to be a 'dick-head' here (my friends will tell you, I don't have to try) but the figures seem extraordinarily optimistic. As I said previously, I would love to be wrong and I have to admit, after a career that primarily involved lead-acid battery banks as a power source/resource maybe my opinion is prejudiced. Here is another 'angle'; a fossil-fuel car might run out of fuel, but if you beg, steal or borrow a gallon, it will get you to the next gas station. If your fossil fuel car has a flat battery. then a 'jump-start' will get you going again, not the same for electric vehicles, run out of power? Shit out of luck, you have to be towed. Bad storm, no electricity, don't depend on that vehicle. I'm not 'knocking it', I believe the future will demand electric vehicles but I would be very surprised if any Emergency Response Vehicles are made electric only in the foreseeable future, for good reasons. I have one thought to offer, all electric vehicles should have a solar panel on the roof, not so much to make them more efficient, but if you do run out of power, at least after a few days (not covered in snow) the batteries should have enough charge to run a few miles and maybe get you home. Cheers matey, I'd love to know how you get on with the new 'set-up' as I am considering an 'off grid' system myself and haven't ruled out pneumatic storage yet, but that would introduce a whole lot of engineering and couplings which are subject to failure, moisture and noise.......battery banks are quiet! Thanks again for the reply, I have a few things to think about. Pax dude.
@@conmcgrath7502 The Jeff Dahn data is from a research scientist. If that's how you earn your living you really don't want to intentionally mislead. People get drummed out of the business for dishonesty. That is not to say that mistakes aren't made, but that the motivation is to be truthful. Not to tell stories to aide the business. I haven't read his paper, I'm not sure that he's published his results yet. The data was from a presentation he made. IIRC the batteries were tested in the sort of way that they would be used in cars. As far as I know batteries are not impacted by vibration. Cells are basically tightly packed paste (most cylindrical cells) or tightly packed dry powder (Tesla's new dry roll cells). There's nowhere for stuff to move around inside the can. I don't think cells are harmed by cold. They just don't produce as much power when cold. Heat them up and they perform as if it's a warm day. If you live in a really cold place you'd want to keep your car plugged in at night and pre-warm the cabin and battery pack before taking off for the day. In super cold places there are often curbside outlets where ICEV drivers plug in their block heaters so their oil is viscous enough to allow their car to start at the end of the day. I didn't do a good job with the discharge limits on the batteries I'm using. Stay above 20% charged, not above 80%. 80% of the battery charge is usable. My previous batteries were Trojan RE batteries that had really thick plates. They were rated for 4,000 cycles if you discharged no more than 20% or 1,000 cycles if you discharged down to 50%. Very different from these LiFePo batteries I've got now. Running out of charge? Just don't. Go to Tesla's Supercharger page and look at how many rapid charger stations they have already built. At this point I don't think there is anywhere in the US where you can get more than 200 miles from a Supercharger. And their goal is to have Supercharger stations no further apart than 35 miles along most travel routes. Tesla EVs are really sell set up to warn drivers that they need to stop for a charge well before it's time. I guess some people will ignore the warnings and have to call for a rescue truck, but that's just who some people are. AAA has some EV rescue trucks but I don't know if they get any use. IIRC they have large battery packs onboard and can give an out of charge EV a few miles of charge to get them to the next charger. I'm not seeing running out of charge as something that we need to worry about. Cars are so smart that we could set the headrest to deliver a dope slap if the driver ignores the flashing light to stop at the next charger. And I think insurance should not cover running out of charge. Let the driver pay a bunch of bucks to be hauled to the nearest charger on a flatbed if that's what it takes to get them to pay attention. As for offgrid, I've been off it since 1986. It's not something that I'd recommend to someone who is hooked to the grid. Install solar panels, perhaps some batteries, but let the grid be the "deep storage". But I bought land that was well off the grid. The utility company wanted $300,000 to hook me up. That meant that I was able to buy a very nice piece of land at an affordable price. Few people knew about solar and the lack of grid power kept the land price very low. When I set up my previous system 20 years ago (I had another off the grid place earlier) solar panels were expensive at $8/watt. I didn't install enough to carry me through periods of cloudy weather. I've now installed a new set of panels with 2x the wattage and switched to a maximum power point tracking charger so I'm hoping that I don't have to use my generator during extended cloudy periods. Or at least not much.
I like your channel and watch almost every episode. So id like to give you some advice. Don't put your ads at the end or people will cut your vid short once they see your content. It is very bad for the RUclips algorithm when viewers don't watch your video all the way to the end. btw you're a very good writer. Your flow is precise and covers all the right things that need to be said about the content.
As always an excellent video, thank you. It makes so much sense to use these. It's like computer cpu cache memory. Small but very fast and in combination with slower memory/disc the whole system performs drastically better. Plus I suspect as it is not a chemical process it will not be affected by temperature much. So EV Regen in the winter would work as well as the summer. Thus improving winter driving range.
That swiss bus thing is super cool. You can grab enough charge when stopped and then let it bleed to lion battery while driving. That opens the door to car that you don't ever need to charge but charging system is in the road itself. 250 against 25 energy density already gives that possibility. And the carbon charger supercapacitor can be used to add structure to the car body too.
Supercaps on their own only good for short term limited energy withdrawal, due to relationship of voltage and energy. Good idea using them to suppliment batteries though.
Combining super capacitors with your 12v car battery can make starting it easier, especially in cold weather. You use super capacitors as a battery replacement but you still keep a standard car battery in case the super caps go dead from.. listening to the radio with the car off for example. Since you won't get much time due to the very low capacity. The (cold) cranking amps of super caps just make starting the car so much easier. I actually considered putting super caps in my old car before i sold it, since it had a sunroof that could have fit a solar panel that would have kept the caps topped off from the passive battery drain from the radio's clock etc.
Really good info, thanks! Always wondered how the issue of charging a battery as quickly as filling a gas tank could be solved, looks like supercaps are it. Quickly charge the capacitor at a charging station, then let it charge the battery while you drive.
Ah, but in that case, why charge the battery at all? You could be using the cap directly instead for higher efficiency. Only reason to charge the battery there would be if you're going to stop at another charging station before the cap is drained.
My PhD is on energy management optimization using HESS (hybrid energy management storage) with bat+UCaps. I agree with u on a lot of stuff but trust me battery tech is not good enough.. If it was we wouldnt. try to solve problems like: Frequency fluctuations, battery aging and degradation due to high currents, battery pack extreme weight , Switching losses etc..
Maybe, but the question is whether adding super capacitors (or any other tech) to EV's is good enough from an economic standpoint not an engineering standpoint. Nobody is arguing that they would not add any value, the question is whether the value added is worth the extra manufacturing costs. And whether there is another added value that makes more sense to pursue first. Like Elon says, manufacturing is difficult and "good enough" is relative.
I use a Maxwell starting module super capacitor in my semi truck. It allowed me to swap out my old lead acid batteries for lithium batteries, which couldn't handle the hard cranking amperage needed to start an engine.
I could see supercapacitors finding a place in the drive train comparable to RAM in computers. In heavy vehicles like delivery trucks/vans, this could significantly help their range and longevity.
@Mattew Connor What gives the long range to heavy trucks is to have the ability to go 600 miles between fueling or recharging. Batteries as they are now can't do it in a cost effective way. Hydrogen fuel cells can do it.
@@acmefixer1 I was more focused on delivery vehicles that do a lot of stop and go but don't cover a lot of miles in a day. That's were using a super capacitor could offer real benefits. Highway driving it's more about aerodynamics and energy density.
Electrolytic Caps have been used for years as "start" caps for the fan and compressor motors in Air conditioning systems. They are the first thing the AC technician checks for failures since they fail often, what will be the failure rate of these new style caps?
Thank you for a great introductory video on super capacitors! I was surprised to hear you say that Elon Musk bought Maxwell technologies for only $200 million? I thought they were a bigger company, considering their important place in the industry.
Super/ultra capacitors tied in parallel also provides some protection for the battery. The capacitor would reduce heat in the battery from high amperage loads. I have a 2000 watt inverter in my car and in my van I have a 1000 watt inverter. On both, I installed a 1.0 fared capacitor that was originally designed large automotive audio amplifiers. It has made a difference when I'm using a circular saw or other appliances that pull a lot if current upon initial start up. In this case the capacitor helps the alternator.
I do exactly that with my muscle car with high cranking current. It killed an expensive Optima ‘Red Top’ so I have a ~90Farad super cap unit from eBay (suitably wrapped in heat shrink) protecting the replacement battery for those critical couple of hundred milliseconds after I hit the starter. So far so good for the last 4 years.
A few years ago there was an article about a company using Skeletons ultracaps to retrofit diesel trucks with regenerative breaking. Supposedly gives a 20-30% fuel saving.
In a home solar setup curtailment is a great use for these Maxwell super caps in my findings. Your panels create more power than they can push through a charge controller. So this bridges the gap by storing the power until the charge controller is able to use it.
@@aussie2uGA The laws of physics haven't changed ! As a result, 'supercapacitors' are about as useful as they were 30 years ago, which is NOT VERY useful at all.
@@aussie2uGA It hasn't changed ! 'supercapacitors' may be great at 3 volts but can't handle the 400 volts or more of an EV motor and are therefore an irrelevance.
The problem with longevity can be tackle with the development of a better insulator. The problem with holding a charge in a capacitor is that the electron tend to leak through the gap. A superior, thinner insulator is needed.
Reading about changes in technology just to try to keep up w stocks is a little mind bending. There's plenty of stuff on the table ripe for super everything. One day it was self driving cars and the next it was about self flying...
I believe the swiss also pioneered the gyro driven buss. Amazing design would run 4-6 hrs on a single spin up. A great feature of gyro driven vehicles is when heading downhill it adds energy directly into rotary motion of the gyro. Be interesting to see what they could do with an electric motor that draws power from buss stops to add energy to the gyro.
This feels like transitioning from HDD storage (ICE) in computers to HDD+SSD combos (ICE+EV hybrids like Prius), then to plain SSD's (Li-ion packs like most pure-EV's), but now we're getting in to the use of things like SSD+Optane (Intel SSD/RAM hybrid with fast read/write and acts like a small RAM drive for your main SSD) with the Li-ion being the SSD (main storage capacity) and the supercaps being Optane with quick fill/empty cycles to reduce load on the main storage where what's being transmitted might otherwise be bottlenecked in transfer rates if otherwise going to main storage. Yes, I'm an IT geek and nerd, how could you tell? :P
I was thinking the same thing, but couldn't get the words to come out right. I can only imagine how much more distance you could get from your Li battery?
Great video, (as in confirms my thinking)! Why do Tesla and others not give their hard working batteries a supercap armchair to relax into. With the right arrangements of supercaps and control programming, the stresses of high power demand alternating with high regeneration could be evened out, the supercaps taking the strain. Million mile battery right now, with an easy life like that, and no loss of performance.
It comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. What will be the expense, weight and usable vehicle interior volume penalties, as well as the design changes required, and are they worth the advantages?
Tesla and similarly wired batteries can easily source enough current as they are. They don't get much benefit from supercaps, as it's the charging cycles that stress these batteries - not the inrush-currents that would stress smaller batteries. The larger the battery pack in terms of capacity and current throughput, the less supercaps help with longevity. Also supercaps have low voltages, generally 2.7V, so you'd need a series of 140 to barely be able to operate, much more to do that safely. The volume and weight this would bring would defeat the purpose.
@@alexoja2918 With capacitors in series, the energy storage in kWh adds up as you'd expect. Energy is proportional to voltage squared, and since voltage adds up with capacitors in series, the capacitance must drop or else you'd be getting exponentially increasing energy density.
@@dekutree64 Totally correct, i wasn't thinking about power as i should've, but capacitance alone. I've removed the mistake, thanks for pointing it out.
Excellent summary Matt. Very pleased you got around to it. I see a large market for hazard-free supercaps in IOT devices also, hand-held scanners, meters, sensors, and wearables, supporting lithium-ion batteries, since these batteries have an environmental concern due to lithium toxicity/mining and recycling. Not only this, but as you mention lengthening the life of lithium batteries, it enables the product user to reduce costs in maintaining their devices.
The one aspect you're missing in terms your question wheter or not we will see supercapacitors, is the economic feasability. If it's not economically worth it, it won't happend, if it is or will be, it will happend.
@Allen Loser uhhhh, yeah thats a capacitor used as a battery, they are not batteries, typically a capacitor is a foil with andie-electric coating and hollow.
I think that the ultracapacitors will be used in EVs eventually. There are several potential use cases. First, as you mentioned in the video, the UC can help capture energy from the regenerative braking system when the EV is decelerating and subsequently either feeding the energy into the traction battery or feeding the energy to the electric motor when the EV accelerates again or perhaps both. If the energy storage capacity of the UC is significantly large, there are some other use cases. For example, the UC could be used to assist in the recharging of the traction battery once the SOC of the battery is close to being topped off to the level desired by the EV owner. You'll note that typically as a Lithium-Ion battery reaches an 80% SOC, the internal resistance of the battery slows down the charging process thus causing further charging to take much more time. Perhaps, if the UC is large enough, this would be a good opportunity to use the UC to quickly take on the remainder of the energy destined for the battery so the EV owner can complete the recharge session and get back on the road. While back on the road, the UC would then discharge the final amount of energy into the battery to complete the recharging of the battery to the desired topped-off SOC. Besides saving the EV owner time waiting for the battery to reach the desired SOC, this would also help prevent the battery from being stressed from the fast charge. A third use case MIGHT be to use the UC to help prime the battery for being recharged at the optimal temperature by quickly cycling the energy between the UC and the battery to warm up the battery to the optimal temperature for being recharged.
Thank you so much for this video. For quite a while I have been trying to get a point over to a company that makes specific electric vehicles. This video did the job!
Capacitors are used in on-board chargers in electric cars to charge the battery. They are also used in the inverter that converts the DC from the battery to AC for the electric motor. Capacitors are a key component of battery EVs already.
Solid state is much closer than that. Several variations have been licensed for over a year. Usually that means market within a year at some price, usually high, but than down.
7:49 This article is more than TWO years old! I would expect that after a "breakthrough" 2 years would be enough for some monetization or at least an update about it, Matt. You must have missed the date of the article. Great video; thanks for all the good information!
The best part of super capacitors is when they fail . All the energy stored is released in several milliseconds and the resulting flash and bang is spectacular.
@@BrettHoustonTube Yep it'd be dangerous. A capacitor works differently than a storage battery. A storage battery, lead-acid, lithium, or whatever works by using a chemical reaction. A capacitor is just a sheet of conductive material (a sheet giving the most surface area for a given mass) that stores electrical charge on it's surface. The problem is to make the capacitor so that it may be charged up and then discharged without accidentally grounding it out.
The Hybrid set ups look cool. Use the Cap. to do most of the work and only use the battery when needed. Prolonging the battery life is always a good thing.
I look forward to the day when all capacitors have equality and freedom, batteries shall no longer dominate the storage media and even tantalums can have their say! (sorry mate, couldn't resist) Pax dude
@@conmcgrath7502 Nicely said... Capacitors are designed for storage and cannot make power. Batteries are designed to make power and incidentally have the ability to store a charge. The big problem with most batteries is that they destroy themselves over time and create some nasty waste as a result.
Great addition to a marine battery bank it does the grunt work when high start currents are drawn, engine starts is a good example, but also increasing demand for inverter s suppluying
Great video. I think it's also important to note that supercapacitors are only useful right now when the load is highly variable. E.g. if my robotic vacuum charges for 2 hours and then cleans for 2 hours, a supercapacitor won't really make a difference. Conversely, EVs repeatedly brake (charge) and accelerate (discharge), giving supercapacitors plenty of potential to reduce the total current to and from the battery.
Super-capacitor technology has some great pros, however it is far from being mature and ready for industrial application. Energy density needs to improve by 20x for SC and 2x Lithium-based -at least. Matt, you didn't talk about price ($/Kwh), but I expect it is quite high. Hybrid batteries could work at the beginning, but I don't except to see any mainstream car in the next 10+ years.
Matt, When compared to an EV battery, (1) about how heavy would, say, a 50 kw Super Cap be? and (2) about how long would it take to charge this 50kw Super Cap? (3) NEED to go very very deep into this subject of super Caps. Where should I look to find current work in this area? I have an electronic background.
Currently super capacitors are price competitive with lead acid car batteries. I've been running a 110 farad capacitor and a lawn mower lead acid battery combination in my Nissan Sentra for about 4 years. It works fine. I tried running the capacitor alone and found the parasitic drain of the car drew the capacitor alone down so far that it wouldn't start the car after about three hours, but with the battery in parallel with the capacitor I can leave the car for a week or more with no problem. current battery price for my wife's Honda is over $200.00. current price on a lawn mower battery is $25.00 and a 166 farad capacitor is around $110.00. The Honda needs a new battery and both the lawn mower battery and the capacitor together will fit where the car battery goes in the car. This is a no brainer swap.
One problem of capacitors is that their voltage drops as their charge drops. (Batteries have a nearly constant voltage.) When the charge on a capacitor has dropped to half, its voltage has dropped to half. This problem can be overcome with an automated switching device that keeps the voltage constant no matter what the charge. When a capacitor bank is fully charged, all of the capacitor units will be in parallel. As their charge drops, the units can be switched to series circuitry. At half charge the units will be in a mix of parallel and series. At minimum charge, all of the capacitor units will be in series. The capacitor bank will give full voltage at any charge. Such "smart capacitor banks" can replace batteries completely and might be useful where weight is not a consideration.
Why did I clicked in ANOTHER VIDEO that tells me about something that will change the future of energy? I was avoiding this vide a full week, but RUclips INSISTED.
"The expense may not be worth the investment.." And that right there is why the future belongs to China and the certain European nations where government doesn't care about the economic cost of development, but the gain of the end result.
Loved the Sith Lord insert in the first third of the video. Very cool. Super Capacitors are indeed improving very fast in the past 10 or so years in comparison to 1960 to 2000.
I love them, no internal resistance so little loss on charge or discharge. I think you identified the possible best use for recovering energy to accelerate rather than stress the battery.
Energy in cap is 1/2 CV^2, so if we increase the voltage in cap just we have more energy and to approach it would be possible with a DC/DC converter for an appropiate voltage.
Already made Maxwell powerwall out of model number V Mod 0 0 63 p125 capacity units switched over to 64 volts Schneider inverter solar setup X nine of them... unbelievable recharge rate
There's a small automotive startup on Fully Charged called "Riversimple" that uses capacitors and a small hydrogen fuel cell combined with 4 motors to capture Regen energy effectively to improve performance metrics.
A computing analogy would be to think of like the cache on your hard drive, its fast, a lot faster than your hard drive but its more expensive and so can only store a very small amount because the cost per mb is so much more. It helps bridge the gap between your fast system and slow hard drive, allowing the cache to fill up with the data very quickly, and then stores that data onto the physical disc to allow for faster storage. In a way this is similar. Lithium Batteries are slow and relatively cheap but can hold large amounts of power for their price. Super capacitors are more expensive and don't store as much but do it very quickly and release it very quickly. It can be used in the same way to bridge the gap to allow for faster charging or to allow the storage of charge that is provided very quickly like breaking. Not a perfect 1-to-1 comparison but its a fairly similar concept.
Energy can be changed from one form to another. Use multiple inputs to generate electrical energy wherever needed (PON - point of need) to complement. Say, in cars, use our body movements & weights, light from outside, wind when car moves, cars brake and weight on roads, tyre pressure fluctuations while in motion, sound inside & outside car, etc.....In Gyms, use body movements (and there's a lot). Surely research on these would come up in future. Generate & use as much energy at PON and get balance from other inputs.
Capacitors can store an enormous amount of energy. The problem is they discharge their energy very quickly. If you had millions of small capacitors fully charged and a computer switching device that let them discharge in sequence, like a line of dominoes, capacitors would be an excellent recharge for on board batteries. You can use your capacitors for a ground
Theres a retreading tire shop near me that uses capacitor banks solely for retreading. Theyve said a very high charge is far superior and faster way to retread than anything else currently. Granted it takes all night to charge from the grid due to power company limiting it
I would like to know what the 'correct balance' between battery capacity and super capacitors is. Given a certain battery size, given re-generation or maximum charge rate, how any Farads of capacitors is needed to allow for the near optimum regeneration percentage.
It's really an economic balance. The more short-term power cycling can move to longer-term cycling, the more battery lifetime can be extended. So it's the cost of the supercar versus the cost of extended battery lifetime.
The big bonus is that you can combine supercaps with higher density energy systems to complement them. You lose some density and lifecycle in lithium because you have to design it to charge and discharge quick enough to accelerate a car quickly or take in regenerative braking energy quickly. With 10% of its energy stored in a super capacitor you can use less lithium to get the same distance travelled but with far better performance and lifecycle characteristics by wiring the lithium pack more optimally to trickle charge the capacitor or power the car during low acceleration and the capacitor handles all the heavy work of acceleration and breaking.
One battery chemistry that i have been playing with is a Lithium Titanate Oxide, LTO, they have a great charge and discharge curve of up to 10C and a cycle life of about 50 years, this setup consists of 66 x 40ah Yinlong cells in a 22S 3P configuration (6kWh). with a big enough charger can be charged in 10 minutes
It should be noted that charge is not stored on the plates. Those are how you move the charge. The insulator itself is becoming polarized. You can polarize an insulator and remove the plates, have them touch and then place them back and the insulator will still be retaining the charge.
One advantage that capacitors will have is the ability to continuously charge them even while in use. Nikola Tesla observed in patent US685957A that a capacitor (condenser in the jargon of his day) will continuously charge where a plate was grounded and the other was provided an antenna. The capacitor would charge until reaching the insulation's dielectric strength when it would rupture. Love this patent because it reminds me so much of Benjamin Franklin's Sentry box experiment involving and insulated rod. The same experiment to claim the life of Georg Wilhelm Richmann. Without using the same desired approach of Tesla in using atmospheric electricity, we could apply the same principle where a capacitor in use can receive grid energy while in operation. Potentially a vehicle that never needs to stop
![Chino Pacas - Modo Capone (with Drake & JOP) [Video Visualizador Oficial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Zoc75M8Swhc/mqdefault.jpg)
What's your take on supercaps and hybrid tech? If you liked this video be sure to watch "Get Solar Energy Without Solar Panels On Your Home - Community Solar Explained": ruclips.net/video/buv-EE6IYaM/видео.html
We've been putting caps on race drones for years (to level out the stress we put on batteries through constant changes in acceleration, and have a smoother video signal), was honestly disappointed to learn my M3 did not have one :(
I've been trying to get this type of hybrid synergy going for years, I also think the graphene tech will play a huge role as well as ongoing improvement in the lithium theater. One day it might just prove Goodenough...😂
The Future looks good with the Evolution of Battery Storage and Renewable Energy. Let's just hope Big Oil embraces Green Energy!!!
Pretty good video. But more information on (super)capacitor historic energy density trend and cost reduction over time would've been nice. (Weren't there a few laws named after people about that?) Also there is the supercapacitor based on soft contact lens material with an energy density rivaling that of early 2018 batteries: Alternative to traditional batteries moves a step closer to reality after exciting progress in supercapacitor technology
by University of Surrey phys.org/news/2018-02-alternative-traditional-batteries-closer-reality.html Superdielectrics Ltd www.superdielectrics.com/ The video also neglected to mention the self-discharge of supercapacitors being a problem for replacing batteries. And another thing; development of 2D-materials (insulators, semiconductors and conductors for computer chips) might lead to very high energy dense supercapacitors. Also some companies compare their supercapacitor tech to lead-acid batteries. Lead-acid batteries are what the companies are trying to replace (thus it's a fair comparison) but lead-acid batteries have a lower energy density than lithium-ion batteries.
I've always considered batteries the achilles heel of EV transportation, if not the archaic electric power grid.
I think supercapacitors just might make EV transportation technologies viable. Currently, they rely on subsidies and a lot of market interference. Battery technology won't go away, but I think supercapacitors will "take the load" off battery technology (pardon the pun) in the EV market. I wouldn't be shocked if they find a big role in mobile computing and even foster new technologies.
I'm a big fan of super caps and i really hope that some day they could reach just half the power density of li-ion batteries. I think a car that has half the range but you can charge in seconds or minutes would completely revolutionize the industry. No more range anxiety.
brednie. Super kondensatory mają wciąż 10x mniejsza gęstość energii od baterii litowych. Po drugie krzywa rozładowania kondensatora jest liniowa. W związku z tym trudno wykorzystać energię z kondensatorów.
@@alchemik2010 brednie. Technologia się wciąż rozwija. Mogą mieć mniejsza gęstość ale jeszcze jest wiele innych parametrów które wpływają na ich użyteczność w poszczególnych zastosowaniach. Żywotność, Cena za kWh, czas ładowania... A co do krzywej rozładowania można to skompensować voltage boosterami.
@@karolstopinski8350 Co jest brednią? fakty są bredniami? zastanów się. Jakie boostery? nawet przetwornica musi mieć jakiś minimalny próg napięcia. Po za tym przetwornica wysokoprądowa okaże się droższa niż te kondensatory.
@@alchemik2010 próbowałem dostosować swoją wypowiedź do twojej gdzie dyskusje zaczyna się od słowa brednie. W moich rejonach Polski dało się po ludzku z innymi dyskutować ale nie wiem jakie są zwyczaje w innych.
Nie wiem wszystkiego na ten temat ale super kondensatory wydają mi się mieć potencjał nawet przy obecnych ograniczeniach.
same, I have some with 500F
I think it’s just like SSD in computers, first you got HDD, then HDD+SSD en now it’s almost SSD only.
Interesting comparison.
And this is exactly how I transitioned, my pc is full SSD now :) the next upgrades will be NVMe
The thing is SDD is better in any possible way but price that’s why they used a combination of both (to save costs). Now that SSD has become affordable enough, there is no point in using a worse technology. However, super capacitors are not better in every possible way than li-ion batteries. Therefore, it would require them to get improved to be a better alternative to li-ion batteries. However, capacitors are an ‘old’ technology and hasn’t got ‘much’ room for improvement whereas lithium is only taking off and it’s seeing improvements every year. This makes supercapacitors only suitable for certain applications. Here is a video about it, it was very interesting you make like it and learn some things: ruclips.net/video/-7T-6XdiRTw/видео.html
What missing in the comparison is specific energy, or size of storage. If SSD's were huge you wouldn't be able to transition to pure SSD.
Hugo de Andrés for now it is, but not in the beginning. In the beginning it failed a lot, was very small and it was very expensive. Over time it improved a lot and the price wend down. It the same amount of R&D that went into SSD over the last years went into Supercaps i wonder how much it would improve.
Hey Matt... I think super capacitors could be used to recoup energy from the suspension dampening using cervos. The amount of energy a vehicle experiences with the road surface variance and grade, I believe there is some untapped potential for super capacitors.
that sounds like a job for a regular capacitor ...
Love Super Caps! Some people already replaced their 12V car battery with a supercap set. Like you said, in EV's it might be used as a hybrid for charging. But wait, there is more.......
Lovesupee some people already replaced Thor 12 car battery with a SuperCamp set like you said, in EV's it might be used as a hybrida for charging but wait there, ia more
It’s simple: just store the energy in my Nintendo DS. The charge will stay 100% for millennia.
Hold on let me check
Edit: holy shit your right
Can someone explain🙃is this a joke or somethin?
oh man i thought that was just me
Spewed my coffee.... cuz it's true. ha-ha
@Alex Gibbs Nintendo's batteries tend to last really long times. I for one have 2 Gameboy Advance SP handhelds (the backlit ones that close lile the DS) which I purchased in 2004 and took one of em with me all the time and to this day they still hold 2 to 3 hours playtime.
*Thanks for the great explanation!* I was amazed by *supercapacitors!!*
Thanks for watching!
Another amazing video Matt! I would be very interested in your take on Diamond Batteries. They seem like a great option for a long term solution but I'm sure there are many drawbacks. Have you looked at them recently?
I've actually been looking into them recently ... still have a lot more digging to do.
09:58 "The *potential* is there for supercapacitors to take *charge* of the energy-storage game"
I see what you did there
I thought I was the only one to notice. . .
@@hammerheadcorvette4 ,
He seems to do that a lot... I find it amusing.
thank you for making the distinction between specific energy and energy density. a lot of people try to use them interchangeably. Thank you for the video in general. I still believe supercaps will replace redox batteries. Hybridizing them is the first step. There will be some interstitial or other modification to improve energy density. The difficulty i see is supplying power at linear discharge rates. High frequency switching (IGBTs) in parallel to a load to keep the load supplied at a constant rate is a viable path i see.
I use a supercapacitor jump-pack to jumpstart boats. They're neat. Half the size and weight of the old style that had a motorcycle size battery in it, but it'll turn over a big diesel engine. Once.
The upside is that you put it on the good battery and it charges back to full in a minute.
That's really what they're good for putting out really high amps for a short time.
They're never going to replace batteries. What they're good for is spike loads. It doesn't matter if they can only put out the power for two seconds if you're using it to go 0-60 in a Tesla.
I use the same for my car.
This one:
www.norauto.pt/p/booster-norauto-premium-sem-bateria-mf450-2054033.html?CatalogID=48599&CatalogCategoryName=48702
It charges with residual energy from a car battery (or using a 12v socket, or even by simply charging at home), which has nowhere near enough juice to start the car, but its plenty to charge the booster, and after a few short minutes, it can "spit out" 450 amps.
It doesn't completely negates the need of having a set of booster cables and the help of another car if the battery is at zero, but since that scenario is unlikely, that supercap booster makes me less reliant on needing the help of others.
@@00Resev really interesting man
On my ebike, I am the super capacitor, I will pedal up to speed then use battery power to maintain that speed. This is also being used in RV ac units, reducing the power needed to kick start the compressor
I pedal up to about 45kmh and then i just let the motor take it from there up to 80kmh since i can't pedal that fast.
@@numbdigger9552 those are rookie numbers. Gotta push those numbers up!
An overall excellent job in explaining these core concepts. You, sir, are a thinking man’s tutor.
"Battery technology is currently good enough"
I see what you did there
i almost down-voted the video, with the feels those words made me feel. ALMOST
The battery technology is never good enough for Goodenought!
its been the same forever almost like someone doesn't want them developing them to keep selling them.
😂
@@dru4670 We talking about GM selling battery tech to Big Oil? lol...
You do a fantastic job Matt. You're a great teacher and you're fun to watch. Thank you.
I'm an automotive designer (styling). This was VERY helpful for me. Got me thinking about future concept vehicles. I'm going to pitch something to Skeleton that shows an open body styling that displays both the battery and the capacitors. FUN!
The car audio industry would like to say "welcome to the party"
Super capacitors are great for charging and discharging quickly.
They don't hold much energy compared to batteries.
But like, this tech has been around for a long while. The only thing I see as new is the use of graphen, and I believe THAT has potential.
John Goodenough, the inventor of the lithium ion battery, is still working to this day towards a 'glass solid state battery' which is sure to win him the nobel prize yet again. It's supposed to have 2-5x the capacity of lithium ion, a higher temperature stability range, and much longer lifespan that apparently improves capacity over time instead of reduce. Funny story i'm distantly related to this man on my fathers side, I hope to someday visit him in Texas and pick his brain on the subject, course he's so busy i doubt he'd have time for me.
I hope John Goodenough lives long enough to complete his work we are almost there!
Just some info on battery life. I recently replaced my worn out lead acid batteries in my home solar system with lithium iron phosphate batteries. They are rated at 10,000+ full 100% to 0% charge cycles. With a daily full cycle those batteries should last over 27 years.
BYD, the Chinese battery and EV manufacturer, has been using lithium iron phosphate batteries in their EVs. The batteries are heavier than lithium ion batteries but apparently Chinese drivers are not a concerned about long ranges. Tesla is now using similar batteries in the Model 3s they are building in Shanghai.
200 mile range. 10,000 cycles. That's two million mile battery.
Very interesting, 10,000 cycles from full to fully discharged? Does that imply that the original capacity remains also?
I bet it doesn't but I would love to be wrong.
@@conmcgrath7502 I had to dig into the warranty a bit to answer your question. I learned that my claim was incorrect. It's not 10,000+ cycles at 100% depth of discharge but 10,000+ cycles at an 80% DOD. And the warranty declares the batteries "dead" if capacity drops to 60% of initial rating.
So not as good as I had assumed, but as long as I don't drop below 20% (often) I should get well over 20 years service and for the last 20+ years I should have at least 61% of my original capacity. The nice thing about lithium batteries is that you can add a new cell to an older group and the old cells won't pull down the performance of the new cell. That's a problem with lead acid cells. So I might need a storage boost in 15-20 years so I can just add a third battery and be back where I started.
What might that mean for an EV? Suppose you had an EV with a 250 mile range. You'd want to avoid dropping below 50 miles in normal driving. If you take only a few long trips per year you might be willing to take the charge closer to 0% and cut a little life off the long end.
And toward the end of life for the batteries your range would have (maximally) drop from 250 miles to 150 mile. Not great but still fine for normal daily use. Not many of us expect to take long trips with 20 - 25 year old cars.
But now!
Since I posted that there's new data coming out of Jeff Dahn's battery lab. Dahn is Tesla's battery guru. His lab has been testing some lithium batteries continuously for three years. Charging and discharging day in and day out. So far they've managed 15,000 cycles so this isn't the final performance data. It's what they've found so far.
The cells they are testing are divided into four groups. One group does full 100% discharges, one group does 75% discharges, a 50% discharge group, and a 25% discharge group.
After 15,000 cycles the 25% and 50% discharge groups have lost no capacity. If you had a 250 mile range EV with these batteries and you almost always recharge before the range dropped below 125 miles you'd have as much range after 41 years of daily driving as you had when new. And that range might hold for decades more, we just don't know how long yet.
The 75% and 100% discharge groups (250 mile range, drive to 'empty') and you'd lose 13% of the range by 41 years. From 250 miles to 218 miles for your 40 year old car.
It looks like we will soon have EV batteries that last far longer than most cars. Will we buy new bodies and move our still good batteries into the new body? Or will we sell our batteries to companies that do grid storage?
And, further. What will this mean for incorporating wind and solar on our grids. Tesla has figured out how to drop the cost of battery cells by over 50%, largely with new manufacturing techniques. So a much cheaper battery with incredible lifespans. Take the old cost for storing electricity in batteries. Cut it in half. Then cut it again by a much larger number due to batteries that will last decades. We need to see these batteries installed and operation in the real world but if the lab results to the real world then we're about to see a massive shift in how we generate electricity.
@@bobwallace9753 Thank you Bob for taking the time, quite the reply! I am still a skeptic, it's not that I don't believe you (and you seem better informed and more 'current' in your knowledge than I) but the various manufacturers have a way of presenting the most positive results in the most favorable way?
For example, do the discharge tests reflect the power demands of the cells in a real world environment? Speaking of environment, how do they perform when it's sub-zero all night? Do the battery banks suffer from vibration over an extended time?
Ref your own words regarding the warranty, another interpretation might be '10,000 cycles' if you never discharge below 80% and all bets are off if you dare to discharge below 60%? .
I'm not trying to be a 'dick-head' here (my friends will tell you, I don't have to try) but the figures seem extraordinarily optimistic.
As I said previously, I would love to be wrong and I have to admit, after a career that primarily involved lead-acid battery banks as a power source/resource maybe my opinion is prejudiced.
Here is another 'angle'; a fossil-fuel car might run out of fuel, but if you beg, steal or borrow a gallon, it will get you to the next gas station. If your fossil fuel car has a flat battery. then a 'jump-start' will get you going again, not the same for electric vehicles, run out of power? Shit out of luck, you have to be towed. Bad storm, no electricity, don't depend on that vehicle.
I'm not 'knocking it', I believe the future will demand electric vehicles but I would be very surprised if any Emergency Response Vehicles are made electric only in the foreseeable future, for good reasons.
I have one thought to offer, all electric vehicles should have a solar panel on the roof, not so much to make them more efficient, but if you do run out of power, at least after a few days (not covered in snow) the batteries should have enough charge to run a few miles and maybe get you home.
Cheers matey, I'd love to know how you get on with the new 'set-up' as I am considering an 'off grid' system myself and haven't ruled out pneumatic storage yet, but that would introduce a whole lot of engineering and couplings which are subject to failure, moisture and noise.......battery banks are quiet!
Thanks again for the reply, I have a few things to think about.
Pax dude.
@@conmcgrath7502 The Jeff Dahn data is from a research scientist. If that's how you earn your living you really don't want to intentionally mislead. People get drummed out of the business for dishonesty. That is not to say that mistakes aren't made, but that the motivation is to be truthful. Not to tell stories to aide the business.
I haven't read his paper, I'm not sure that he's published his results yet. The data was from a presentation he made. IIRC the batteries were tested in the sort of way that they would be used in cars.
As far as I know batteries are not impacted by vibration. Cells are basically tightly packed paste (most cylindrical cells) or tightly packed dry powder (Tesla's new dry roll cells). There's nowhere for stuff to move around inside the can.
I don't think cells are harmed by cold. They just don't produce as much power when cold. Heat them up and they perform as if it's a warm day. If you live in a really cold place you'd want to keep your car plugged in at night and pre-warm the cabin and battery pack before taking off for the day. In super cold places there are often curbside outlets where ICEV drivers plug in their block heaters so their oil is viscous enough to allow their car to start at the end of the day.
I didn't do a good job with the discharge limits on the batteries I'm using. Stay above 20% charged, not above 80%. 80% of the battery charge is usable.
My previous batteries were Trojan RE batteries that had really thick plates. They were rated for 4,000 cycles if you discharged no more than 20% or 1,000 cycles if you discharged down to 50%. Very different from these LiFePo batteries I've got now.
Running out of charge? Just don't. Go to Tesla's Supercharger page and look at how many rapid charger stations they have already built. At this point I don't think there is anywhere in the US where you can get more than 200 miles from a Supercharger. And their goal is to have Supercharger stations no further apart than 35 miles along most travel routes. Tesla EVs are really sell set up to warn drivers that they need to stop for a charge well before it's time. I guess some people will ignore the warnings and have to call for a rescue truck, but that's just who some people are.
AAA has some EV rescue trucks but I don't know if they get any use. IIRC they have large battery packs onboard and can give an out of charge EV a few miles of charge to get them to the next charger.
I'm not seeing running out of charge as something that we need to worry about. Cars are so smart that we could set the headrest to deliver a dope slap if the driver ignores the flashing light to stop at the next charger. And I think insurance should not cover running out of charge. Let the driver pay a bunch of bucks to be hauled to the nearest charger on a flatbed if that's what it takes to get them to pay attention.
As for offgrid, I've been off it since 1986. It's not something that I'd recommend to someone who is hooked to the grid. Install solar panels, perhaps some batteries, but let the grid be the "deep storage". But I bought land that was well off the grid. The utility company wanted $300,000 to hook me up. That meant that I was able to buy a very nice piece of land at an affordable price. Few people knew about solar and the lack of grid power kept the land price very low.
When I set up my previous system 20 years ago (I had another off the grid place earlier) solar panels were expensive at $8/watt. I didn't install enough to carry me through periods of cloudy weather. I've now installed a new set of panels with 2x the wattage and switched to a maximum power point tracking charger so I'm hoping that I don't have to use my generator during extended cloudy periods. Or at least not much.
@@bobwallace9753 Many thanks and respect.
I like your channel and watch almost every episode. So id like to give you some advice. Don't put your ads at the end or people will cut your vid short once they see your content. It is very bad for the RUclips algorithm when viewers don't watch your video all the way to the end. btw you're a very good writer. Your flow is precise and covers all the right things that need to be said about the content.
As always an excellent video, thank you.
It makes so much sense to use these. It's like computer cpu cache memory. Small but very fast and in combination with slower memory/disc the whole system performs drastically better.
Plus I suspect as it is not a chemical process it will not be affected by temperature much. So EV Regen in the winter would work as well as the summer. Thus improving winter driving range.
Thank you Sir for giving the information on Supercapacitors
It's ;just amazing how many extremely useful things have been discovered accidentally.
Its equally infuriating how many world changing inventions have been supressed intentionally
Like what? Genuinely curious
vulcanized rubber, penicillin, microwaves' ability to heat stuff, to name a few.
One might say serendipity is the mother of invention.
@@alejandromiranda5404 viagra, hardboard, teflon
That swiss bus thing is super cool. You can grab enough charge when stopped and then let it bleed to lion battery while driving. That opens the door to car that you don't ever need to charge but charging system is in the road itself. 250 against 25 energy density already gives that possibility. And the carbon charger supercapacitor can be used to add structure to the car body too.
Supercaps on their own only good for short term limited energy withdrawal, due to relationship of voltage and energy.
Good idea using them to suppliment batteries though.
Combining super capacitors with your 12v car battery can make starting it easier, especially in cold weather. You use super capacitors as a battery replacement but you still keep a standard car battery in case the super caps go dead from.. listening to the radio with the car off for example. Since you won't get much time due to the very low capacity.
The (cold) cranking amps of super caps just make starting the car so much easier.
I actually considered putting super caps in my old car before i sold it, since it had a sunroof that could have fit a solar panel that would have kept the caps topped off from the passive battery drain from the radio's clock etc.
Really good info, thanks! Always wondered how the issue of charging a battery as quickly as filling a gas tank could be solved, looks like supercaps are it. Quickly charge the capacitor at a charging station, then let it charge the battery while you drive.
Ah, but in that case, why charge the battery at all? You could be using the cap directly instead for higher efficiency. Only reason to charge the battery there would be if you're going to stop at another charging station before the cap is drained.
Great video Matt, I can’t understand why you get any downvotes, people come here who don’t like science?
My PhD is on energy management optimization using HESS (hybrid energy management storage) with bat+UCaps.
I agree with u on a lot of stuff but trust me battery tech is not good enough.. If it was we wouldnt. try to solve problems like:
Frequency fluctuations, battery aging and degradation due to high currents, battery pack extreme weight , Switching losses etc..
Maybe, but the question is whether adding super capacitors (or any other tech) to EV's is good enough from an economic standpoint not an engineering standpoint.
Nobody is arguing that they would not add any value, the question is whether the value added is worth the extra manufacturing costs. And whether there is another added value that makes more sense to pursue first.
Like Elon says, manufacturing is difficult and "good enough" is relative.
I use a Maxwell starting module super capacitor in my semi truck. It allowed me to swap out my old lead acid batteries for lithium batteries, which couldn't handle the hard cranking amperage needed to start an engine.
Do you have a link? I'm looking for one for my Jeep
I could see supercapacitors finding a place in the drive train comparable to RAM in computers. In heavy vehicles like delivery trucks/vans, this could significantly help their range and longevity.
@Mattew Connor
What gives the long range to heavy trucks is to have the ability to go 600 miles between fueling or recharging. Batteries as they are now can't do it in a cost effective way. Hydrogen fuel cells can do it.
@@acmefixer1 I was more focused on delivery vehicles that do a lot of stop and go but don't cover a lot of miles in a day. That's were using a super capacitor could offer real benefits.
Highway driving it's more about aerodynamics and energy density.
Acme, I think they were talking about super capacitors being used for regen.
Electrolytic Caps have been used for years as "start" caps for the fan and compressor motors in Air conditioning systems. They are the first thing the AC technician checks for failures since they fail often, what will be the failure rate of these new style caps?
Thank you for a great introductory video on super capacitors! I was surprised to hear you say that Elon Musk bought Maxwell technologies for only $200 million? I thought they were a bigger company, considering their important place in the industry.
really interesting topic and very clear presentation, congrats on the mix of details, data and good storyline
We need the Stargate project to go public so we can get access to naquadah.
Indeed.
I have no idea what those words mean
Super/ultra capacitors tied in parallel also provides some protection for the battery. The capacitor would reduce heat in the battery from high amperage loads. I have a 2000 watt inverter in my car and in my van I have a 1000 watt inverter. On both, I installed a 1.0 fared capacitor that was originally designed large automotive audio amplifiers. It has made a difference when I'm using a circular saw or other appliances that pull a lot if current upon initial start up. In this case the capacitor helps the alternator.
I do exactly that with my muscle car with high cranking current. It killed an expensive Optima ‘Red Top’ so I have a ~90Farad super cap unit from eBay (suitably wrapped in heat shrink) protecting the replacement battery for those critical couple of hundred milliseconds after I hit the starter. So far so good for the last 4 years.
The do seem to be well suited for regen breaking.
They really are.
A few years ago there was an article about a company using Skeletons ultracaps to retrofit diesel trucks with regenerative breaking. Supposedly gives a 20-30% fuel saving.
In a home solar setup curtailment is a great use for these Maxwell super caps in my findings. Your panels create more power than they can push through a charge controller. So this bridges the gap by storing the power until the charge controller is able to use it.
Would love to see super-capacitors be incorporated into Teslas to provide consistent “launches” , regardless of battery SOC.
Sure, a capacitor could provide a burst of charge for maybe a microsecond ! Really useful NOT.
@@pasoundman I don't know whats possible, only what was possible.
@@aussie2uGA The laws of physics haven't changed ! As a result, 'supercapacitors' are about as useful as they were 30 years ago, which is NOT VERY useful at all.
@@aussie2uGA It hasn't changed ! 'supercapacitors' may be great at 3 volts but can't handle the 400 volts or more of an EV motor and are therefore an irrelevance.
pasoundman You can series connect them to get whatever voltage you want. There are also capacitors that are much greater than 3v
The problem with longevity can be tackle with the development of a better insulator. The problem with holding a charge in a capacitor is that the electron tend to leak through the gap. A superior, thinner insulator is needed.
I remember my 1974 essay teaching this concept for braking systems.
Reading about changes in technology just to try to keep up w stocks is a little mind bending. There's plenty of stuff on the table ripe for super everything. One day it was self driving cars and the next it was about self flying...
But wait, there's more.... good play!
Ha! I thought that was funny ... glad you liked it.
more is the new less...oh wait
@@UndecidedMF The "potiental ... to take chaargee..." was waaay better! ;) I loved it!
@@UndecidedMF nerd
@@UndecidedMF where can I ask you question
I believe the swiss also pioneered the gyro driven buss. Amazing design would run 4-6 hrs on a single spin up. A great feature of gyro driven vehicles is when heading downhill it adds energy directly into rotary motion of the gyro. Be interesting to see what they could do with an electric motor that draws power from buss stops to add energy to the gyro.
This feels like transitioning from HDD storage (ICE) in computers to HDD+SSD combos (ICE+EV hybrids like Prius), then to plain SSD's (Li-ion packs like most pure-EV's), but now we're getting in to the use of things like SSD+Optane (Intel SSD/RAM hybrid with fast read/write and acts like a small RAM drive for your main SSD) with the Li-ion being the SSD (main storage capacity) and the supercaps being Optane with quick fill/empty cycles to reduce load on the main storage where what's being transmitted might otherwise be bottlenecked in transfer rates if otherwise going to main storage.
Yes, I'm an IT geek and nerd, how could you tell? :P
I was thinking the same thing, but couldn't get the words to come out right.
I can only imagine how much more distance you could get from your Li battery?
Man brilliant looks amazing BTW are you an engeneer ?
Great video, (as in confirms my thinking)! Why do Tesla and others not give their hard working batteries a supercap armchair to relax into. With the right arrangements of supercaps and control programming, the stresses of high power demand alternating with high regeneration could be evened out, the supercaps taking the strain. Million mile battery right now, with an easy life like that, and no loss of performance.
It comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. What will be the expense, weight and usable vehicle interior volume penalties, as well as the design changes required, and are they worth the advantages?
Tesla and similarly wired batteries can easily source enough current as they are. They don't get much benefit from supercaps, as it's the charging cycles that stress these batteries - not the inrush-currents that would stress smaller batteries. The larger the battery pack in terms of capacity and current throughput, the less supercaps help with longevity. Also supercaps have low voltages, generally 2.7V, so you'd need a series of 140 to barely be able to operate, much more to do that safely. The volume and weight this would bring would defeat the purpose.
@@alexoja2918 With capacitors in series, the energy storage in kWh adds up as you'd expect. Energy is proportional to voltage squared, and since voltage adds up with capacitors in series, the capacitance must drop or else you'd be getting exponentially increasing energy density.
@@dekutree64 Totally correct, i wasn't thinking about power as i should've, but capacitance alone. I've removed the mistake, thanks for pointing it out.
Excellent summary Matt. Very pleased you got around to it. I see a large market for hazard-free supercaps in IOT devices also, hand-held scanners, meters, sensors, and wearables, supporting lithium-ion batteries, since these batteries have an environmental concern due to lithium toxicity/mining and recycling. Not only this, but as you mention lengthening the life of lithium batteries, it enables the product user to reduce costs in maintaining their devices.
The one aspect you're missing in terms your question wheter or not we will see supercapacitors, is the economic feasability. If it's not economically worth it, it won't happend, if it is or will be, it will happend.
capacitors are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper and lighter
@@-LightningRod- I think batteries are cheaper and lighter and also less volume.
@Allen Loser uhhhh, yeah
thats a capacitor used as a battery, they are not batteries, typically a capacitor is a foil with andie-electric coating and hollow.
@Allen Loser
yes i believe it is ideally suited for the regen cycle
@Allen Loser
uhm capacitors are VERY light, ... typically
Such an amazing simple presentation , excellent speaker
Thank you!
Love the video topic, this is important stuff!!
Glad you think so!
Superb video, utterly fantastic!!! By itself the video would be an easy A, but providing the full script & citations takes it to an A++. Thank you 🙏🏼.
Now do one for Solid State Batteries if you haven't already. Also great video!
Great explanation about supercapacitors, you have illuminated me with your knowledge
6:49 you show a video of the tram in dresden while speaking about mannheim. Looked fun to someone who knows the place
how -> who :)
I think that the ultracapacitors will be used in EVs eventually. There are several potential use cases. First, as you mentioned in the video, the UC can help capture energy from the regenerative braking system when the EV is decelerating and subsequently either feeding the energy into the traction battery or feeding the energy to the electric motor when the EV accelerates again or perhaps both. If the energy storage capacity of the UC is significantly large, there are some other use cases. For example, the UC could be used to assist in the recharging of the traction battery once the SOC of the battery is close to being topped off to the level desired by the EV owner. You'll note that typically as a Lithium-Ion battery reaches an 80% SOC, the internal resistance of the battery slows down the charging process thus causing further charging to take much more time. Perhaps, if the UC is large enough, this would be a good opportunity to use the UC to quickly take on the remainder of the energy destined for the battery so the EV owner can complete the recharge session and get back on the road. While back on the road, the UC would then discharge the final amount of energy into the battery to complete the recharging of the battery to the desired topped-off SOC. Besides saving the EV owner time waiting for the battery to reach the desired SOC, this would also help prevent the battery from being stressed from the fast charge. A third use case MIGHT be to use the UC to help prime the battery for being recharged at the optimal temperature by quickly cycling the energy between the UC and the battery to warm up the battery to the optimal temperature for being recharged.
Such a great explanation and smart way of using numbers, figures and animation. Congrats!!!
Thank you so much for this video.
For quite a while I have been trying to get a point over to a company that makes specific electric vehicles.
This video did the job!
Maybe I will be able to share some details later this year 😉
Glad it was helpful!
1:53, unless the electrolyte dries and it turns into a resistor
Capacitors are used in on-board chargers in electric cars to charge the battery. They are also used in the inverter that converts the DC from the battery to AC for the electric motor. Capacitors are a key component of battery EVs already.
How will solid state batteries affect all this, when and if it becomes available.
I think SSB and Supercapacitors would be a great deal in the future (10-15 years)
Solid state is much closer than that. Several variations have been licensed for over a year. Usually that means market within a year at some price, usually high, but than down.
7:49 This article is more than TWO years old! I would expect that after a "breakthrough" 2 years would be enough for some monetization or at least an update about it, Matt. You must have missed the date of the article. Great video; thanks for all the good information!
The best part of super capacitors is when they fail . All the energy stored is released in several milliseconds and the resulting flash and bang is spectacular.
So is the flame of a battery
Try shorting one out, a nice effect too.
Would they be dangerous paired with a battery in a vehicle? Risk of explosion/fire etc?
@@BrettHoustonTube Yep it'd be dangerous. A capacitor works differently than a storage battery. A storage battery, lead-acid, lithium, or whatever works by using a chemical reaction. A capacitor is just a sheet of conductive material (a sheet giving the most surface area for a given mass) that stores electrical charge on it's surface. The problem is to make the capacitor so that it may be charged up and then discharged without accidentally grounding it out.
The Hybrid set ups look cool. Use the Cap. to do most of the work and only use the battery when needed. Prolonging the battery life is always a good thing.
Good video. Thanks Matt. I look forward to the day when capacitors have equal or greater energy density than batteries.
I hope so, but people have to think out of the box to overcome the physical limitation. I am working on it, I hope I can make it!!
They never will, unless battery technology completely stalls, but they don't have to in order to be very useful.
I look forward to the day when all capacitors have equality and freedom, batteries shall no longer dominate the storage media and even tantalums can have their say! (sorry mate, couldn't resist)
Pax dude
@@conmcgrath7502 Nicely said... Capacitors are designed for storage and cannot make power. Batteries are designed to make power and incidentally have the ability to store a charge. The big problem with most batteries is that they destroy themselves over time and create some nasty waste as a result.
Great addition to a marine battery bank it does the grunt work when high start currents are drawn, engine starts is a good example, but also increasing demand for inverter s suppluying
“With Tesla’s battery day not to far off”
It’s been not to far off this entire year.
Great video. I think it's also important to note that supercapacitors are only useful right now when the load is highly variable. E.g. if my robotic vacuum charges for 2 hours and then cleans for 2 hours, a supercapacitor won't really make a difference. Conversely, EVs repeatedly brake (charge) and accelerate (discharge), giving supercapacitors plenty of potential to reduce the total current to and from the battery.
👍
Super-capacitor technology has some great pros, however it is far from being mature and ready for industrial application. Energy density needs to improve by 20x for SC and 2x Lithium-based -at least. Matt, you didn't talk about price ($/Kwh), but I expect it is quite high. Hybrid batteries could work at the beginning, but I don't except to see any mainstream car in the next 10+ years.
Can we agree that the meaning of ‘either’ is not the same as ‘both’? Thanks for helping the cause of precise communication.
The "Flux capacitor" is the way to go.
Matt, When compared to an EV battery,
(1) about how heavy would, say, a 50 kw Super Cap be? and
(2) about how long would it take to charge this 50kw Super Cap?
(3) NEED to go very very deep into this subject of super Caps. Where should I look to find current work in this area? I have an electronic background.
Ev cars can be charged wirelessly even while driving
Currently super capacitors are price competitive with lead acid car batteries. I've been running a 110 farad capacitor and a lawn mower lead acid battery combination in my Nissan Sentra for about 4 years. It works fine. I tried running the capacitor alone and found the parasitic drain of the car drew the capacitor alone down so far that it wouldn't start the car after about three hours, but with the battery in parallel with the capacitor I can leave the car for a week or more with no problem. current battery price for my wife's Honda is over $200.00. current price on a lawn mower battery is $25.00 and a 166 farad capacitor is around $110.00. The Honda needs a new battery and both the lawn mower battery and the capacitor together will fit where the car battery goes in the car. This is a no brainer swap.
Super Capacitors great for electric aircraft VTOL for takeoffs and landings
One problem of capacitors is that their voltage drops as their charge drops. (Batteries have a nearly constant voltage.) When the charge on a capacitor has dropped to half, its voltage has dropped to half. This problem can be overcome with an automated switching device that keeps the voltage constant no matter what the charge. When a capacitor bank is fully charged, all of the capacitor units will be in parallel. As their charge drops, the units can be switched to series circuitry. At half charge the units will be in a mix of parallel and series. At minimum charge, all of the capacitor units will be in series. The capacitor bank will give full voltage at any charge. Such "smart capacitor banks" can replace batteries completely and might be useful where weight is not a consideration.
Omg, the future is so bright that i will soon get blind.
Just wear shades!
Very Speed in speach delivery
Carbon Hemp out performs graphene when used as material for supercapcitators.
Why did I clicked in ANOTHER VIDEO that tells me about something that will change the future of energy? I was avoiding this vide a full week, but RUclips INSISTED.
"The expense may not be worth the investment.." And that right there is why the future belongs to China and the certain European nations where government doesn't care about the economic cost of development, but the gain of the end result.
Loved the Sith Lord insert in the first third of the video. Very cool. Super Capacitors are indeed improving very fast in the past 10 or so years in comparison to 1960 to 2000.
I love them, no internal resistance so little loss on charge or discharge. I think you identified the possible best use for recovering energy to accelerate rather than stress the battery.
Energy in cap is 1/2 CV^2, so if we increase the voltage in cap just we have more energy and to approach it would be possible with a DC/DC converter for an appropiate voltage.
Already made Maxwell powerwall out of model number V Mod 0 0 63 p125 capacity units switched over to 64 volts Schneider inverter solar setup X nine of them... unbelievable recharge rate
There's a small automotive startup on Fully Charged called "Riversimple" that uses capacitors and a small hydrogen fuel cell combined with 4 motors to capture Regen energy effectively to improve performance metrics.
Thanks
8:29 Finally some metrics and quantitative analysis. I was just about to complain…
What about hooking up super capacitors to already expensive and powerful Solar Battery banks? Would they work in a charge/discharge continuous cycle ?
What I remember about capacitors is they suck up energy quickly, and discharge it quickly. I’m surprised they don’t have more uses.
A computing analogy would be to think of like the cache on your hard drive, its fast, a lot faster than your hard drive but its more expensive and so can only store a very small amount because the cost per mb is so much more. It helps bridge the gap between your fast system and slow hard drive, allowing the cache to fill up with the data very quickly, and then stores that data onto the physical disc to allow for faster storage.
In a way this is similar. Lithium Batteries are slow and relatively cheap but can hold large amounts of power for their price. Super capacitors are more expensive and don't store as much but do it very quickly and release it very quickly. It can be used in the same way to bridge the gap to allow for faster charging or to allow the storage of charge that is provided very quickly like breaking. Not a perfect 1-to-1 comparison but its a fairly similar concept.
Energy can be changed from one form to another. Use multiple inputs to generate electrical energy wherever needed (PON - point of need) to complement. Say, in cars, use our body movements & weights, light from outside, wind when car moves, cars brake and weight on roads, tyre pressure fluctuations while in motion, sound inside & outside car, etc.....In Gyms, use body movements (and there's a lot). Surely research on these would come up in future. Generate & use as much energy at PON and get balance from other inputs.
Capacitors can store an enormous amount of energy. The problem is they discharge their energy very quickly. If you had millions of small capacitors fully charged and a computer switching device that let them discharge in sequence, like a line of dominoes, capacitors would be an excellent recharge for on board batteries. You can use your capacitors for a ground
Great way to Bridge the response time when there's a power outage and batteries are a bit to slow
Theres a retreading tire shop near me that uses capacitor banks solely for retreading. Theyve said a very high charge is far superior and faster way to retread than anything else currently. Granted it takes all night to charge from the grid due to power company limiting it
I would like to know what the 'correct balance' between battery capacity and super capacitors is. Given a certain battery size, given re-generation or maximum charge rate, how any Farads of capacitors is needed to allow for the near optimum regeneration percentage.
It's really an economic balance. The more short-term power cycling can move to longer-term cycling, the more battery lifetime can be extended. So it's the cost of the supercar versus the cost of extended battery lifetime.
The big bonus is that you can combine supercaps with higher density energy systems to complement them. You lose some density and lifecycle in lithium because you have to design it to charge and discharge quick enough to accelerate a car quickly or take in regenerative braking energy quickly. With 10% of its energy stored in a super capacitor you can use less lithium to get the same distance travelled but with far better performance and lifecycle characteristics by wiring the lithium pack more optimally to trickle charge the capacitor or power the car during low acceleration and the capacitor handles all the heavy work of acceleration and breaking.
One battery chemistry that i have been playing with is a Lithium Titanate Oxide, LTO, they have a great charge and discharge curve of up to 10C and a cycle life of about 50 years, this setup consists of 66 x 40ah Yinlong cells in a 22S 3P configuration (6kWh). with a big enough charger can be charged in 10 minutes
It should be noted that charge is not stored on the plates. Those are how you move the charge. The insulator itself is becoming polarized. You can polarize an insulator and remove the plates, have them touch and then place them back and the insulator will still be retaining the charge.
One advantage that capacitors will have is the ability to continuously charge them even while in use. Nikola Tesla observed in patent US685957A that a capacitor (condenser in the jargon of his day) will continuously charge where a plate was grounded and the other was provided an antenna. The capacitor would charge until reaching the insulation's dielectric strength when it would rupture.
Love this patent because it reminds me so much of Benjamin Franklin's Sentry box experiment involving and insulated rod. The same experiment to claim the life of Georg Wilhelm Richmann.
Without using the same desired approach of Tesla in using atmospheric electricity, we could apply the same principle where a capacitor in use can receive grid energy while in operation. Potentially a vehicle that never needs to stop
I utilized this concept in the early 2000s, to allow the use of a smaller battery while maintaining peak current draw performance of the system.