I think we should do a collection to give a pipe with enough tobacco also to Dr. Jay Smith for his next birthday... 😊 This would indeed complete the cumulative load of brilliant scientists and scholars in a smoking "Trinity"... 👍👍👍 *Monsieur Lafontaine,* je voudrais profiter de cette occasion pour vous remercier très chaleureusement pour tous vos travaux, dont j'ai également beaucoup profité. Merci de tout ma cœur, monsieur. 💕💕
@@IslamicOrigins I'm sorry, Mel, to have forgotten you in the "pipe-smoking Trinity" of my previous comment, even though you don't smoke a pipe but would complete a highly scientific quartet with it. 😊 Either way, I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for all your very qualified work and teachings. God bless you abundantly dear Mel ❤
On a future occasion, I will do that if he is free. I'm going to be taking a break from the channel in a few weeks time, so later in the summer I will resume this. However, there will be a series of videos dropping over the summer so it won't be entirely quiet.
Fascinating. From one word lover to another: the expression is "the whole 9 yards". It goes back to the days of sailing ships. A 3 masted ship, with each mast's sails unfurled from its 3 yard arms, would be using all of its potential, hence the term "nine yards".
Mell this is absolutely brilliant, fabulous you got Prof. Dr Kerr to do this video so much info and things to take in. So Paul Ellis is definitely on the right track, and do you still think you have it right about 48:24? onto Part 2!
Thank you so much, Simon! Yes, I'm fully convinced that it was impossible for this to have come from Mecca: all signs are that it came from somewhere north such the Al Jazira, as Dr Kerr mentioned. Part 2 has got some amazing new insights. One that I hadn't fully realised was that the Kaaba points to Jerusalem!
Robert and I seem to be on more or less the same page, although it sounds so much more polished when he says it. I plan to try to write an updated version of my Jerusalem City of Islam article this summer. No major changes but some new evidence, and my own 'Mecca' thesis.
I repeat this again Mel "Bismillah, Al Rahman, Al Rahim" really means "In the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit" (Exodus 34:6) Titus 2:11-14 shows that Jesus is the Al-Rahman. Here is why. The Qur'an doesn't go against Monophysite Christology. The Begetter is the Father's Spirit (Rahim/Haq). The Father sends his Spirit upon his chosen ministries (Surah 40:15) only *BY* The Begetter/Rasul/Rahim/Haq (Surah 3:86 & 9:128) and this Holy Spirit/Ruh al-Qudus (not Jibreel) brings down Good News from The Lord (Surah 16:102). The same Begetter became present as Yesod by Kadmon (Surah 58:22) Allah = God Ruh al Qudus= Holy Spirit Muhammad = Jesus Qur'an = Perfectly Preserved Word of God made flesh by the Ruh into The Messiah. Many Muslims are going to apostate from Islam this year when the realise Allah's two right hand are The Kalimatullah and The Ruh Al-Qudus. The Kalimatullah becomes The Shin when He returns to make the world His footstool
Exodus 34:6 is too early for 'God the Son' to be in the records. Vowelisation for that meaning fits in with New Testament times. Alternative vowelisation yields 'God of his sons', this morphed into 'God the Son'. Think 'God of our Father (Abraham), God of his Sons, God of me'. The exact consonants yield today's 'God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit'. Missed the live cast. Just started watching ....
With this, I'm confused. The Begetter is the Father's Spirit (Rahim/Haq). The Father sends his Spirit upon his chosen ministries. OK, here you are saying the Begetter is the Spirit. [Not the Father, which is what I would have thought.] Then, you have "BY The Begetter/Rasul/Rahim/Haq". If Muhammad is Jesus, how can Rasul be the holy Spirit, I thought Rasul allah referred to Muhammad/Jesus? In Christian Christology, the Father is the Begetter and the Son is the Begotten, so are you saying it is different in Islam? Just checking if I follow you correctly.
Mel. Couldn’t listen to all the live stream. Long weekend here lots of visitors. I’m going to email you this week. Please keep your eye out. Likely Tuesday or Wednesday. ❤️
@@AncientHebrewNeverDied Funny you should say that as Momo biography starts at Abrams Father, Momo married a merchant, Abrahm's father was a merchant and a idol maker, Abram had many sons, Momo had many wives, see the pattern, they kept changing who Momo is, he was not a person just a figure that represents all religions, they tried to get the Jews and Christain's but they knew it was bogus so they said no, this is when Islam went to war on them, Islame is nothing more than a political system who took on all the old deity and idol worship going back to Abraham father, Momo the praised one is all forms of Astro worship hence Islame made it into other countries that follow Astro worship. As to the black stone well that is also a pre Islame idol that was worshiped by other traditions and found in other popular temples, funny thing Islame claimed them to be important to them too. Islame is opposite to Holy, what we see as good they see as bad. Islame goes against God.
@Islamic Origins yes I see what you are saying. The physical body of Jesus was begotten of the essence of the Holy Spirit/Ruh Al Qudus into Mary. They checkmate themselves, as either the need to accept that Jesus is half angel or need to rethink about who The Ruh al Qudus really is. To them, Allah doesn't beget, as it was the Holy Spirit who did. Jesus is still the begotten Son. They trust man made tafsirs, daif haddiths, and totalitarian haq over that of a tafsir generated from the prophetical writings found in the torat, zabur and injeel.
Does the fact that Mecca is in Saudi Arabia where Muhammad was supposedly born and hajj is conducted every year, and the Saudi government is silent about this issue says a lot why Mecca is the obvious choice?
A few Abduls have been sent to label Dr Kerr a "Christian apologist" in an attempt to discredit him. Argue the points, nevermind trying to discredit him. If I see the use of this clearly scripted response, you will be removed from channel, no ifs or buts.
A few Abduls??? So YOU are also using ''ABDUL'' in a discriminatory manner, proofing that you are just another Islamophobe😀 Robert Kerr is actually worse than a Xtian apologist, as all I hear are baseless rhetoric between each puff from whatever he's sucking from his pipe. He don't even correct you when you tried to draw ''parallels'' between Mohammad (saw) and the Buddha...😅🤣😂
Please Lord, we have circled Islam 7 times now, please allow this weapon formed against you be allowed to fall, in the mighty name of Jesus Christ. Ameen
@I9s7lam5is S3tu1pid we have every aspect of their legal, financial, military, political, social, spiritual and religious aspects bound. Like the walls of Jericho- it needs to fall.
@@silverltc2729 - it will, but not according to the ancient directions given to ancient Israel. The ever living God doesn’t repeat Himself since He’s the Creator.
"What is the relationship between Islam and the Quran?" ... I've been saying for years the Quran is effectively irrelevant in Islam. The Sharia replaces it and supersedes it, with far more relevance, detail and applicability.
@tariqthebiblicalscholar5865 I read it. Because unlike Mi. I'm literate. You're a girl, why did Mo say women like you are inly half intelligent? Did we read that wrong too? 😆 🤣 😂 😹
@@tariqthebiblicalscholar5865 I merely repeat what your own scholars say. Feel free to demonstrate the error by quoting the laws yourself. Why did you run from so many live discussions? You realised your lies would only carry you over a cliff of embarrassment in public? Why is Mo only mentioned 4 times in the Quran? It seems to be a book about Jesus.
@tariqthebiblicalscholar5865 Why are you claiming greater knowledge than your mujtahids? Just show the fiqh, show the right laws from solid references and you have a case. Keep waffling and you look like a BS artist. Sadly, lying is obligatory in your deen. Filthy.
Joe and your brilliant guest you are real mind bellowing to many Muslims who maybe watching this video, and thank you Joe very much, and you keep referring to Shoemaker’s book- Creating-The-Quran. Which’s in my hands reading
Mel, I am so sorry. This is my mistake I don’t know why I wrote your name Joe, maybe because I was on the other day in Red Judaism ✡️ channel. But anyway I am really your big fan of your brilliant hardworking research which is a real pain to many Muslims scholars who have completely failed to respond to you.
Thanks Mel, but can you start looking at the next set of questions, having concluded that Mecca was never the original holy site of Islam, and prophet Mohammed didn't exist. If we start from these two assumptions (which you and others have covered extensively for the last two years), then the next set of questions are :- 1- How did the Abbasids, who overthrew the Umayyads in western Arabia in 750AD, convince the Umayyads in Spain to believe in a new prophet (Mohammed) and a new religion called Islam. Remember the Umayyads in Spain were Christian anti-Trinitarian for a century and half before they made the switch to Islam in Spain. If they are sworn enemies of each other, how and why did the two Islamic empires collude to create a new religion. 2- If the prophet Mohammed is a fictional made-up prophet by the Umayyads or the Abbasids, then why did no one object and document this, and why did the Shia Muslims create a second branch of this fake story of Islam. Why did Shias believe in a fake narrative created by their enemies, the Umayyads and Abbasids, especially since they must have known there was no prophet Mohammed and no Ali. 3- There are a couple of references to the prophet Mohammed in the 7th century by Sebeos and Thomas the presbyter, is there unanimous agreement by the historians that these are unreliable sources ?
I don't accept some of the premises of your questions. So how can I ask questions on the basis of premises that are not certain? There a host of possibilities as to what started the thing off. We could be dealing with a singular Mamad, or several. The biography is not dependable for reasons I've gone into. Did people have the capacity to notice that their own collective story telling was generating a false narrative? No more than many other instances of the same thing in history. The nature of the origins of Shiaism is often assumed but what do we really know? Iran the "home" of Shiaism was mostly Sunni until the 16th century, a tiny fledgling Shiaism prior to then had little say on anything. Probably a lot of their supposed sources are from Ottomon times. You don't seem to think that the contradictions between Sunnism and Shiaism is an objection to each other's beliefs. How can someone object to a biography at that time that no one had a contrary biography of? With question 3, you seem to be unaware that their details are an objection to the later biography but it didn't stop it: religious cults don't seem to be sticklers for accuracy or verification. Question 1 seems to assume that somehow the Ummayads in Spain were quarantined from the dynamics happening elsewhere as if being an enemy was that black and white but the reality is that they were constantly trading and travelling. The most potent force was the social and not the say of the rulers. The divide between both sides was exaggerated.
@@IslamicOrigins Thanks Mel, it's a complicated mess. I'm a non-practicing Muslim myself, and after watching your videos, along with Jay, Odon and Al-Fadi for the last month, I now question the whole narrative. I lived most of my life not questioning Islam, until Ramadan last month, I went online to find out the origins of fasting, and your video popped up about the Pagan origins of Al-Fitr, which completely shocked me, I genuinely wasn't prepared for that. Then I watched all the other videos and now it seems the whole thing could be a scam. The questions I posted were some holes in my knowledge related to how the leaders could have pulled off this big con. Your answer seems to suggest that the Arab rulers wanted power at any cost, even faking a whole religion and manufacturing a prophet. This would be unpresedented in human history. It's still mind boggling how a whole empire with different ethnic groups all accepted this fake narrative. I am still not clear why the Umayyads in Spain would accept a fake religion and prophet from the Abbasids, who killed their whole family in Arabia in pretty despicable circumstances.
@@RedWolf75 If Umayyad invaders of Spain were not Muslim to start with, which does seem to be the evidence, then what motivated them to invade and what made them fanatical. The same question applies to the rest of the Arab empire, it seems as though they were fanatical first, then invented a religion in their image both to control their own population and to subjugate others.
Mel there is a Spanish scholar who claims Islam did not exist in 711 when Spain was invaded. He says Islam came about because of the Abbasids. In another video he claims the term Muhammad in the Koran is not a reference to the person Muslims later claimed he was. The professor is named Emilio Ferrin. ruclips.net/video/PTA0KPssHEw/видео.html
Mel, that glorious orchestral intro of ’Lamb of God’ juxtaposed with the Kaaba is both a jolt and a joke. 😂 You’re giving the silly black square too much beauty.
As far as I know it isn't connected to a hymn to the Lamb of God, might just sound similar. :) The images contain "easter eggs" or clues to part 2's theme.
Most of the claims are unsubstantiated and based on ASSUMPTIONS and coincidental findings. The Treaty of Hubaidiyah is well-documented and accepted without any doubt by all historians. The location of Hubaidiyah links the location of Mecca, the prophet, and the Meccan tribes
40:00 Origin of Mecca - or more correct Makkah ak Makarrama مكة المكرّمة - seams have a root in common with modern arabic mcann = place, side. And it that sence Makka al Makarrama means The honourable side or the sacret city.
Living in a society all caught up in expectations for God to return to a temple. Then politically after you conquer a people with this mindset and then proceed to build a brand new shiny temple there. A new ruling political caste can reasonably invent it as the place for the return to already have happened. This gets rid of the idea that people can expect someone else (especially a real embodied God) to return and make their hand to mouth existence any better.
Alonzo Harris, it doesn't matter how many names you go under. Coming on here pretending to be "academic" but spreading disinformation serves no one. You even pretend to be a man to gain favour. Come back when you are honest. Lies are no use to anyone.
Solid evidence against Islam that needs to be explained & Alonzo Harris answer is, "Mel believes in three Gods." He makes himself look foolish & it's obvious he has nothing to defend Islam with.
I thought everyone know that the roots of Islam came from Petra whose gods were Allah and his wife Allat, the whose people spoke a pre Quranic form of Arabic.
So, what Islame is, is not what you think it is!! But we already know this, Islame goes against the teachings of the Bible. What we see as Holy they see it as bad, Islame is old deity worship like the old hence Aisha said so and the Quran says so, Islame just rolled every moon god worship name's into one, uniting all Astro religions hence they were able to spread into other Astro worship countries such as India, hence these other countries are becoming Islamic over time. Only people they could not convince were the Jews and Christians hence they went to war against them. Mecca was built in the 8th century even the rock description says so, they needed a mutual place of no religion to have no conflict with hence only Muslims can enter the secret club. Momo is just a figure of people and objects, not a person nor a prophet. Thanks guys very educational.
Hi, I just watched a video you did (new view of Mary in the Qur'anic Trinity) on another channel and found your view really interesting. What would your response be to the verse 5:75, "The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded." The verse makes it clear it is about Mary rather than the Holy Spirit and is used to show how Isa and Mary could not have been divine since they both ate. Would love to know your take.
Supposing that there is a semitic symmetry at play here too, then the symmetry is between Jesus and Mary, and not Mary and the Holy Spirit. It is like parables of seeds, used in different ways in each parable. One is the Son of God, the other is the Mother of God, both eat food (symbolic of the earthly, the mundane), despite their link with the divine. Their link to the divine is necessarily different.
Eloha/Allah/yah/al lah/set/the black sun/saturn/ahrimam is the lunar moon god, while zeus/Jupiter/ahura mazda/christ(not jesus)/tiwaz/shiva/Mithras/ra is the solar sun god
so the city of all city which is the center of trade have issue to get wood for a roof and need to scavenge from a shipwreck in a days of walk down the the plateau!!! that's doesn't seams to me like a really prosperous city if they have no wood to just build a roof!!!
Apparently, a lot of "scholars" have not read the OT where it says in no uncertain term that Ur-shalem (you need to know Arabic to decipher this composed word) was located on the top of a high and sacred mountain (Ur : city on a forest mountain) whereas Al Quds is the lowest point on earth....sea level. So much for your Western Orientalism BS.
@@whoahna8438 The prophecies about the identity of the Messiah are numerous. You have to combine them all together. For ex : Daniel 9 predicts the coming of the Prince ( the messiah) before the destruction of the temple and He will be cut off. So who can be the Messiah? He must be born of a Virgin, killed before the destruction of the temple, and even came out of Bethlehem ( Mica 5)? The 3 orientale Magies did calculate well.
![Ahmad Al-Jallad [II]: What Pre-Islamic Arabia was Like Based on the Epigraphic Evidence](/img/1.gif)
So nice to finally have Dr Kerr on your channel.
Yes, it was great and I couldn't help being reminded of you with the pipe. 😁
@@IslamicOrigins I actually first thought it was Odon when I saw the thumbnail, lol
I think we should do a collection to give a pipe with enough tobacco also to Dr. Jay Smith for his next birthday... 😊 This would indeed complete the cumulative load of brilliant scientists and scholars in a smoking "Trinity"... 👍👍👍
*Monsieur Lafontaine,* je voudrais profiter de cette occasion pour vous remercier très chaleureusement pour tous vos travaux, dont j'ai également beaucoup profité.
Merci de tout ma cœur, monsieur. 💕💕
@@IslamicOrigins I'm sorry, Mel, to have forgotten you in the "pipe-smoking Trinity" of my previous comment, even though you don't smoke a pipe but would complete a highly scientific quartet with it. 😊
Either way, I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for all your very qualified work and teachings. God bless you abundantly dear Mel ❤
@@Indah-tjs but i don't like pipes ... I only like hookah :D haha
Great discussion/interview. Please have more. I wish you could collect questions from viewers to ask him 🙏👍
On a future occasion, I will do that if he is free. I'm going to be taking a break from the channel in a few weeks time, so later in the summer I will resume this. However, there will be a series of videos dropping over the summer so it won't be entirely quiet.
Fascinating. From one word lover to another: the expression is "the whole 9 yards". It goes back to the days of sailing ships. A 3 masted ship, with each mast's sails unfurled from its 3 yard arms, would be using all of its potential, hence the term "nine yards".
Right. When will Odon be on again?❤
Hopefully, in the near future.
Mell this is absolutely brilliant, fabulous you got Prof. Dr Kerr to do this video so much info and things to take in. So Paul Ellis is definitely on the right track, and do you still think you have it right about 48:24? onto Part 2!
Thank you so much, Simon! Yes, I'm fully convinced that it was impossible for this to have come from Mecca: all signs are that it came from somewhere north such the Al Jazira, as Dr Kerr mentioned. Part 2 has got some amazing new insights. One that I hadn't fully realised was that the Kaaba points to Jerusalem!
@@IslamicOrigins thank you for the reply, it’s fabulous stuff 👍
@@IslamicOrigins The Kaaba does NOT point to Jerusalem. Or has Dr.Kerr some explanation that is not on the maps ?
Robert and I seem to be on more or less the same page, although it sounds so much more polished when he says it.
I plan to try to write an updated version of my Jerusalem City of Islam article this summer. No major changes but some new evidence, and my own 'Mecca' thesis.
@@paulellis5101 that’s sounds great Paul
I repeat this again Mel
"Bismillah, Al Rahman, Al Rahim" really means "In the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit" (Exodus 34:6)
Titus 2:11-14 shows that Jesus is the Al-Rahman. Here is why.
The Qur'an doesn't go against Monophysite Christology.
The Begetter is the Father's Spirit (Rahim/Haq). The Father sends his Spirit upon his chosen ministries (Surah 40:15) only *BY* The Begetter/Rasul/Rahim/Haq (Surah 3:86 & 9:128) and this Holy Spirit/Ruh al-Qudus (not Jibreel) brings down Good News from The Lord (Surah 16:102). The same Begetter became present as Yesod by Kadmon (Surah 58:22)
Allah = God
Ruh al Qudus= Holy Spirit
Muhammad = Jesus
Qur'an = Perfectly Preserved Word of God made flesh by the Ruh into The Messiah.
Many Muslims are going to apostate from Islam this year when the realise Allah's two right hand are The Kalimatullah and The Ruh Al-Qudus. The Kalimatullah becomes The Shin when He returns to make the world His footstool
Exodus 34:6 is too early for 'God the Son' to be in the records. Vowelisation for that meaning fits in with New Testament times. Alternative vowelisation yields 'God of his sons', this morphed into 'God the Son'. Think 'God of our Father (Abraham), God of his Sons, God of me'. The exact consonants yield today's 'God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit'.
Missed the live cast. Just started watching ....
With this, I'm confused.
The Begetter is the Father's Spirit (Rahim/Haq). The Father sends his Spirit upon his chosen ministries. OK, here you are saying the Begetter is the Spirit. [Not the Father, which is what I would have thought.]
Then, you have "BY The Begetter/Rasul/Rahim/Haq". If Muhammad is Jesus, how can Rasul be the holy Spirit, I thought Rasul allah referred to Muhammad/Jesus?
In Christian Christology, the Father is the Begetter and the Son is the Begotten, so are you saying it is different in Islam?
Just checking if I follow you correctly.
Mel. Couldn’t listen to all the live stream. Long weekend here lots of visitors. I’m going to email you this week. Please keep your eye out. Likely Tuesday or Wednesday. ❤️
@@AncientHebrewNeverDied Funny you should say that as Momo biography starts at Abrams Father, Momo married a merchant, Abrahm's father was a merchant and a idol maker, Abram had many sons, Momo had many wives, see the pattern, they kept changing who Momo is, he was not a person just a figure that represents all religions, they tried to get the Jews and Christain's but they knew it was bogus so they said no, this is when Islam went to war on them, Islame is nothing more than a political system who took on all the old deity and idol worship going back to Abraham father, Momo the praised one is all forms of Astro worship hence Islame made it into other countries that follow Astro worship. As to the black stone well that is also a pre Islame idol that was worshiped by other traditions and found in other popular temples, funny thing Islame claimed them to be important to them too. Islame is opposite to Holy, what we see as good they see as bad. Islame goes against God.
@Islamic Origins yes I see what you are saying. The physical body of Jesus was begotten of the essence of the Holy Spirit/Ruh Al Qudus into Mary.
They checkmate themselves, as either the need to accept that Jesus is half angel or need to rethink about who The Ruh al Qudus really is.
To them, Allah doesn't beget, as it was the Holy Spirit who did. Jesus is still the begotten Son. They trust man made tafsirs, daif haddiths, and totalitarian haq over that of a tafsir generated from the prophetical writings found in the torat, zabur and injeel.
So Northern Iraq is where the Tayyeye eere based. So ironically that area was near where the Romans and Persians were going at it
Islam is really the product of the last Great War of antiquity.
Waiting for part 2. Very interesting. .
Does the fact that Mecca is in Saudi Arabia where Muhammad was supposedly born and hajj is conducted every year, and the Saudi government is silent about this issue says a lot why Mecca is the obvious choice?
A few Abduls have been sent to label Dr Kerr a "Christian apologist" in an attempt to discredit him. Argue the points, nevermind trying to discredit him. If I see the use of this clearly scripted response, you will be removed from channel, no ifs or buts.
Yeah! Let's clean the comments from the ad hominem :)
A few Abduls???
So YOU are also using ''ABDUL'' in a discriminatory manner, proofing that you are just another Islamophobe😀
Robert Kerr is actually worse than a Xtian apologist, as all I hear are baseless rhetoric between each puff from whatever he's sucking from his pipe.
He don't even correct you when you tried to draw ''parallels'' between Mohammad (saw) and the Buddha...😅🤣😂
The problem is that Al Quds is not "Jerusalem"... even UNESCO has recognized this fact.
Aramaic is 97% Arabic / Dr Ahmed Bahjat Al Qobeissi.
Please Lord, we have circled Islam 7 times now, please allow this weapon formed against you be allowed to fall, in the mighty name of Jesus Christ. Ameen
When did we circle Islam 7 times?
@I9s7lam5is S3tu1pid we have every aspect of their legal, financial, military, political, social, spiritual and religious aspects bound. Like the walls of Jericho- it needs to fall.
@@silverltc2729 - it will, but not according to the ancient directions given to ancient Israel.
The ever living God doesn’t repeat Himself since He’s the Creator.
@@silverltc2729 Islam is the chosen tool of Satan for End of the current age,
"What is the relationship between Islam and the Quran?" ... I've been saying for years the Quran is effectively irrelevant in Islam. The Sharia replaces it and supersedes it, with far more relevance, detail and applicability.
@tariqthebiblicalscholar5865 What are the credentials of the people who wrote the Islamic law vs your opinion?
@@tariqthebiblicalscholar5865 Alfonso, you're back!
@tariqthebiblicalscholar5865 I read it. Because unlike Mi. I'm literate. You're a girl, why did Mo say women like you are inly half intelligent? Did we read that wrong too? 😆 🤣 😂 😹
@@tariqthebiblicalscholar5865 I merely repeat what your own scholars say. Feel free to demonstrate the error by quoting the laws yourself. Why did you run from so many live discussions? You realised your lies would only carry you over a cliff of embarrassment in public? Why is Mo only mentioned 4 times in the Quran? It seems to be a book about Jesus.
@tariqthebiblicalscholar5865 Why are you claiming greater knowledge than your mujtahids? Just show the fiqh, show the right laws from solid references and you have a case. Keep waffling and you look like a BS artist. Sadly, lying is obligatory in your deen. Filthy.
Joe and your brilliant guest you are real mind bellowing to many Muslims who maybe watching this video, and thank you Joe very much, and you keep referring to Shoemaker’s book- Creating-The-Quran. Which’s in my hands reading
My name is Mel. Thank you nonetheless!
Mel, I am so sorry. This is my mistake I don’t know why I wrote your name Joe, maybe because I was on the other day in Red Judaism ✡️ channel. But anyway I am really your big fan of your brilliant hardworking research which is a real pain to many Muslims scholars who have completely failed to respond to you.
Thanks Mel, but can you start looking at the next set of questions, having concluded that Mecca was never the original holy site of Islam, and prophet Mohammed didn't exist. If we start from these two assumptions (which you and others have covered extensively for the last two years), then the next set of questions are :-
1- How did the Abbasids, who overthrew the Umayyads in western Arabia in 750AD, convince the Umayyads in Spain to believe in a new prophet (Mohammed) and a new religion called Islam. Remember the Umayyads in Spain were Christian anti-Trinitarian for a century and half before they made the switch to Islam in Spain. If they are sworn enemies of each other, how and why did the two Islamic empires collude to create a new religion.
2- If the prophet Mohammed is a fictional made-up prophet by the Umayyads or the Abbasids, then why did no one object and document this, and why did the Shia Muslims create a second branch of this fake story of Islam. Why did Shias believe in a fake narrative created by their enemies, the Umayyads and Abbasids, especially since they must have known there was no prophet Mohammed and no Ali.
3- There are a couple of references to the prophet Mohammed in the 7th century by Sebeos and Thomas the presbyter, is there unanimous agreement by the historians that these are unreliable sources ?
I don't accept some of the premises of your questions. So how can I ask questions on the basis of premises that are not certain? There a host of possibilities as to what started the thing off. We could be dealing with a singular Mamad, or several. The biography is not dependable for reasons I've gone into.
Did people have the capacity to notice that their own collective story telling was generating a false narrative? No more than many other instances of the same thing in history.
The nature of the origins of Shiaism is often assumed but what do we really know? Iran the "home" of Shiaism was mostly Sunni until the 16th century, a tiny fledgling Shiaism prior to then had little say on anything. Probably a lot of their supposed sources are from Ottomon times.
You don't seem to think that the contradictions between Sunnism and Shiaism is an objection to each other's beliefs. How can someone object to a biography at that time that no one had a contrary biography of? With question 3, you seem to be unaware that their details are an objection to the later biography but it didn't stop it: religious cults don't seem to be sticklers for accuracy or verification. Question 1 seems to assume that somehow the Ummayads in Spain were quarantined from the dynamics happening elsewhere as if being an enemy was that black and white but the reality is that they were constantly trading and travelling. The most potent force was the social and not the say of the rulers. The divide between both sides was exaggerated.
@@IslamicOrigins
The Ummayads in Spain eventually collapsed and the fanatical Muslims invader in the 1000s. That's probably when Islam came to Spain.
@@IslamicOrigins Thanks Mel, it's a complicated mess. I'm a non-practicing Muslim myself, and after watching your videos, along with Jay, Odon and Al-Fadi for the last month, I now question the whole narrative.
I lived most of my life not questioning Islam, until Ramadan last month, I went online to find out the origins of fasting, and your video popped up about the Pagan origins of Al-Fitr, which completely shocked me, I genuinely wasn't prepared for that. Then I watched all the other videos and now it seems the whole thing could be a scam.
The questions I posted were some holes in my knowledge related to how the leaders could have pulled off this big con. Your answer seems to suggest that the Arab rulers wanted power at any cost, even faking a whole religion and manufacturing a prophet. This would be unpresedented in human history. It's still mind boggling how a whole empire with different ethnic groups all accepted this fake narrative.
I am still not clear why the Umayyads in Spain would accept a fake religion and prophet from the Abbasids, who killed their whole family in Arabia in pretty despicable circumstances.
@@RedWolf75 If Umayyad invaders of Spain were not Muslim to start with, which does seem to be the evidence, then what motivated them to invade and what made them fanatical. The same question applies to the rest of the Arab empire, it seems as though they were fanatical first, then invented a religion in their image both to control their own population and to subjugate others.
@@SzTz100
The Ummayads were Arab supremacists.
Mel there is a Spanish scholar who claims Islam did not exist in 711 when Spain was invaded. He says Islam came about because of the Abbasids. In another video he claims the term Muhammad in the Koran is not a reference to the person Muslims later claimed he was. The professor is named Emilio Ferrin.
ruclips.net/video/PTA0KPssHEw/видео.html
Poitiers 732
Mel, that glorious orchestral intro of ’Lamb of God’ juxtaposed with the Kaaba is both a jolt and a joke. 😂
You’re giving the silly black square too much beauty.
As far as I know it isn't connected to a hymn to the Lamb of God, might just sound similar. :) The images contain "easter eggs" or clues to part 2's theme.
@@IslamicOrigins - here’s one version of this song written by Twila Paris:
ruclips.net/video/2QGNUDsQ6fI/видео.html
Just heard it now, what a beautiful hymn, gave me tingles, fabulous!
Schön Dich mal wieder zu sehen, Gruß. aus Holland
Mecca was not even a choice 😮
Very interesting and enlightening conversation.
Most of the claims are unsubstantiated and based on ASSUMPTIONS and coincidental findings. The Treaty of Hubaidiyah is well-documented and accepted without any doubt by all historians. The location of Hubaidiyah links the location of Mecca, the prophet, and the Meccan tribes
Wait, what happened to your Twitter?
40:00 Origin of Mecca - or more correct Makkah ak Makarrama مكة المكرّمة - seams have a root in common with modern arabic mcann = place, side. And it that sence Makka al Makarrama means The honourable side or the sacret city.
Living in a society all caught up in expectations for God to return to a temple. Then politically after you conquer a people with this mindset and then proceed to build a brand new shiny temple there. A new ruling political caste can reasonably invent it as the place for the return to already have happened. This gets rid of the idea that people can expect someone else (especially a real embodied God) to return and make their hand to mouth existence any better.
Alonzo Harris, it doesn't matter how many names you go under. Coming on here pretending to be "academic" but spreading disinformation serves no one. You even pretend to be a man to gain favour. Come back when you are honest. Lies are no use to anyone.
He is everywhere in all Christian channel. Thay dude is sick and crazy 😂
Solid evidence against Islam that needs to be explained & Alonzo Harris answer is, "Mel believes in three Gods." He makes himself look foolish & it's obvious he has nothing to defend Islam with.
@@sheikhboyardee556 Alonzo Harris is a woman, according to Lloyd.
@@IslamicOrigins Could be, or at least a silly boy.
Is their a specific battle that Belisarius was involved in, that would be used for the Battle of the Trench?
I thought everyone know that the roots of Islam came from Petra whose gods were Allah and his wife Allat, the whose people spoke a pre Quranic form of Arabic.
So, what Islame is, is not what you think it is!! But we already know this, Islame goes against the teachings of the Bible. What we see as Holy they see it as bad, Islame is old deity worship like the old hence Aisha said so and the Quran says so, Islame just rolled every moon god worship name's into one, uniting all Astro religions hence they were able to spread into other Astro worship countries such as India, hence these other countries are becoming Islamic over time. Only people they could not convince were the Jews and Christians hence they went to war against them. Mecca was built in the 8th century even the rock description says so, they needed a mutual place of no religion to have no conflict with hence only Muslims can enter the secret club. Momo is just a figure of people and objects, not a person nor a prophet.
Thanks guys very educational.
Hi, I just watched a video you did (new view of Mary in the Qur'anic Trinity) on another channel and found your view really interesting. What would your response be to the verse 5:75, "The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded." The verse makes it clear it is about Mary rather than the Holy Spirit and is used to show how Isa and Mary could not have been divine since they both ate. Would love to know your take.
Supposing that there is a semitic symmetry at play here too, then the symmetry is between Jesus and Mary, and not Mary and the Holy Spirit. It is like parables of seeds, used in different ways in each parable. One is the Son of God, the other is the Mother of God, both eat food (symbolic of the earthly, the mundane), despite their link with the divine. Their link to the divine is necessarily different.
Much better than other.
Eloha/Allah/yah/al lah/set/the black sun/saturn/ahrimam is the lunar moon god, while zeus/Jupiter/ahura mazda/christ(not jesus)/tiwaz/shiva/Mithras/ra is the solar sun god
Aka mr poirot jk
Maybe there was another Muhammad in Yemen (in addition to Iyas). 🤔
so the city of all city which is the center of trade have issue to get wood for a roof and need to scavenge from a shipwreck in a days of walk down the the plateau!!!
that's doesn't seams to me like a really prosperous city if they have no wood to just build a roof!!!
He is totally unimpressive. Nothing of substance to add to what is already known
He set the groundwork for what's coming. Who do you think was central to knowing what we currently do? It was him.
Incoherent
Apparently, a lot of "scholars" have not read the OT where it says in no uncertain term that Ur-shalem (you need to know Arabic to decipher this composed word) was located on the top of a high and sacred mountain (Ur : city on a forest mountain) whereas Al Quds is the lowest point on earth....sea level. So much for your Western Orientalism BS.
Jesus doesn't fulfill Isaiah 7:14
Your argument?
@@twnb7733
The prophecy about the son doesn't stop at verse 14 and Jesus didn't fulfill the rest of it because there's no way possible for him to
@@whoahna8438 There were about 600 year between. So what hadn’t been fulfilled?
@@twnb7733
Exactly so it makes no sense to claim that he fulfilled verse 14
@@whoahna8438 The prophecies about the identity of the Messiah are numerous. You have to combine them all together. For ex : Daniel 9 predicts the coming of the Prince ( the messiah) before the destruction of the temple and He will be cut off. So who can be the Messiah? He must be born of a Virgin, killed before the destruction of the temple, and even came out of Bethlehem ( Mica 5)? The 3 orientale Magies did calculate well.