I would speculate that having a wormhole as the chokepoint was an advantage for the Dominion, as was taking on the Cardassian Union as a subsidiary ally. The Dominion was scouted and spied on, but never properly invaded the way they invaded the Alpha Quadrant. Also, the Dominion was preparing deliberately and premeditatively for war, and had the advantage of shapeshifting spies and native informants in the Alpha Quadrant. It wasn't just tactics, but strategic preparation that allowed them to overpower the opposition nearest the wormhole, the Federation advance fleet, in a matter of months. Additionally, their entire empire seemed to be organized around nothing but the founders and implementing their will with intimidation and military force. They had no art, no culture, no pursuits of inquiry beyond 'how do we bring external power X under our Dominion?' That means that nothing the Dominion did was enriching or elevating, scientifically or otherwise. So mass-producing ships and soldiers, while tactically and strategically an overwhelming advantage, left nothing in the dominion that would make anybody other than indoctrinated zealots want to defend or expand it.
Don't forget that they also had the advantage of shapeshifting spies and a previously established network of informants in the Alpha Quadrant. They also conducted a nonviolent psychological experiment on the Defiant command officers to see how they would respond to a threat, beginning from infiltration to diplomatic subversion to direct assault. They thoroughly mapped out their opponents before attacking - that's probably why the Dominion has lasted for so many centuries; they are slow, careful, methodical, and completely unrestrained by ethics.
From what I seen about the Dominion fleet tatics from the DS9 is that half of their tatics are psychological and the other half is classic ship to ship engagement. The Dominion have shown that they will use kamikaze attacks to demoralize an enemy, to sow confusion, and to soften up the enemy's fleet. That way the cruisers and battleships can move in to finished the enemy fleet off.
Sfdebries once said it best: When the terran empire were a backstabbing, infighting mob they manahed to create and maintain an expanding empire, crushing all resistence. The moment they mellow out, they fail.
Exceprt from the Analysis Report from the Inter-Universe Assessment Division. Special Consultant: Mitth’raw’nourodo, Chiss Ascendency. “A most interesting enemy. Supposedly, the Vorta and Jem’Hadar are genetically incapable of understanding aesthetics, and so make no art. Thus, I can find little in their tactics from the fleet and vessel designs. However, the tactics are reflective of their designers: The Changelings Of the Omarion Nebula. As the changelings alter their millions of cells to form the shapes of their desires, so to does their fleet consist of large numbers of smaller units, forming and reforming into their desired shape and form. Their ability to assimilate new shapes and cultures into their dominion and fighting force, without truly changing themselves, shows a unique sense of self, and an unwavering belief in their own perfection. This enemy is likely highly skilled in early planning, often able to make nigh-perfect plans and early steps, exceptionally skilled in making use of limited resources, but incapable of adapting to unforeseen changes to their plans.”
@@barrybend7189 makes me wonder what he would think of The Cardassians, given that the same shape, or variants of it reoccur time and again in their art.
The Dominion should've won (or at least pushed back the Federation to it's core worlds), and then fallen apart after the *Founders all die* from that _mysterious_ plague… All of them - including the Gamma Quadrant Founders (maybe a lost scout survives?). The question is what happens to the Dominion afterwards, could another member species step up to fill the gap? Would it still hold together or would it separate into individual species or even factions? Could the Jem'Hadar still get the White? They didn't make it for security reasons. And there were probably other species that did the logistics and engineering. It doesn't seem like something the Vorta or Jem'Hadar would do. Anyway, if the Wormhole Aliens hadn't helped to make the retaking of DS9 a possibility, Odo would have never rejoined the crew and Bashir wouldn't have discovered the origins of the disease. As for Section 31, a slight tweaking of their plans would have ensured a even greater victory… follow the path after Odo rejoins the Federation. Odo is secretly cured without his knowledge before he ever shows symptoms (maybe during a Starfleet medical back at HQ) so to everyone (including Bashir) it looks like he was never infected. Which means that the virus was introduced after the female Changeling had contact with him. So the Federation is innocent of bio warfare _due to lack of opportunity…!_ Odo is advised to stay away from all Founders for his own sake and the sake of his species (he being the only uninfected) and may even be placed in quarantine for _"his own protection"._ Then Intel is _"accidently"_ leaked that implicates the Breen as the source of the virus, as an attempt to usurp the Founders and take control of the Dominion for themselves - the timing does match … … Having a reputation for being devious and mysterious can be a issue at times. So the Dominion in its final days turns on the Breen, eliminating a long term existential threat to the Federation. And once all the Founders are dead the Dominion species all turn to obey the one surviving Changeling - *Odo.* The Dominion now follow the rule of a security officer from a Starfleet base. Starfleet now "owns" the Gamma Quadrant and all the Dominion forces. Other Alpha powers are totally outclassed and they know it. The Federation+Dominion is a whole new league of power, especially as Starfleet with it's history of innovation and unconventional tactics and the Dominion with it's singular focus, logistics and rapidly grown optimised species complement each other. Then the Federation moves into the Gamma Quadrant and works to make the Dominion benevolent and liberate the oppressed species, who would leap at the chance to join the Federation, if only out of gratitude. After a while the Dominion species now view themselves as Federation species (imagine a non White addicted Jem'Hadar that fanatically believed in the ideals of the Federation and swore to defend them…) The Federation now controls two Quadrants, and the Beta Quadrant is swinging their way as well due to slow creep and cultural contamination. Section 31 quietly purges it's records and all knowledge of their involvement, just in case.
Section 31 curing Odo such that no one could trace or cure the xenocide of the rest of the Founders is both genius and absolutely in character for them. But I don't think the Federation in whole would be the least bit willing to absorb the Founderless Dominion. For one thing their only way through is by the leave of the Prophets who might not be so willing once Sisko's taken care of the omnicidal Pah Wraiths AND for another Section 31 showed no interest in encouraging Federation 'manifest destiny'ism' and would almost certainly oppose such after the Federation only wins due to the Dominion having a single point of failure in the Founders. I think the Federation would be willing to work with Odo in reconstructing the Dominion as a friendly 'co-equal' galactic power much as they did with the Klingons at Khitomer and with Gowron (before he went nanners) and then Martok. I also don't think many of the Dominion races would be as grateful as you think considering their only exposure to the war up until the last Founder dies will have been building the war material and being fed Dominion propaganda, if even that considering it's only been the Jem Hadar, Vorta and a few Founders actually fighting the war. We also don't know anything about the internal stresses and conflicts between Dominion subject races, Odo releasing the iron grip of the Jem Hadar and Vorta could result in anything from Federation: Gamma Quadrant version to Syrian Civil War: Gamma Quadrant version. Section 31 thus has fulfilled it's duty as the scariest mofos of any of the galactic power intelligence branches all without exposing themselves to people they know are potential enemies internally. And yeah I get why they couldn't do that in the show.
Ah, those cringy times with the emissary. They did have their moments. Thankfully, the show ended on a happy note with a traditional Bajoran wedding of staring out a window. All shenanigans aside, another cool vid with an epic vibe. I don't know if you could call Dominion tech more advanced (can't remember anyone saying so canonically), as it was more like one gimmick versus another. At the start, the Dominion had intel they could build their ships around plus a weapon that could beat Federation shields. Near the end of the war, the tables had turned as Dominion bugs were shredded up like paper. The captured bug probably helped a lot with that. It was their industry and manpower (Jem-power?) that gave them an edge against the Federation. They used intelligence to draw enemy offensives into a grinder, then harassed the front lines until they found a weak spot. Combine this with their swarm/shock fleet tactics, and they had the perfect formula for defeating the Federation. Where Thrawn is concerned, the Dominion may not have had much of a culture, but they had a maniacal propaganda system. Trade one or two blows with a Dominion fleet, and Thrawn would have them figured out. Without any backstory, the Changelings would be the greatest threat as the Dominion was initially pretty good at masking their existence. Thrawn likes unique maneuvers and new technology to change the rules of the battlefield. Thrawn's employed tech versus Changeling infiltration would be like a contest between two fighters who only dealt lethal blows.
In a way the Dominion War is very similar to the initial Concept of the Clone Wars (One of them anyway as presented in the Thrawn Trilogy). An aggressive outside power using Cloned Armies to attack the Federation/Republic. Maybe one of the writers of DS9 was somewhat inspired by the few mentions in the Thrawn Trilogy (As it was released shortly before DS9 began production). Just imagine a Jedi Knight fighting Jem'Hadar....
If those Dominion Ships are held "Out of Time" imagine how useful they could be brought back at the exactly right moment. They could be used to stomp some baddies in the 32nd Century or to go toe to toe with a resurgent Borg presence. The Prophets don't even have to exit them from the same exit - as If I recall correctly they can move the location of the exit aperture anywhere they like. Imagine Discovery was written by someone with the sort of brains of Joe Michael Strazinski and then think of the fun things you could do with that Fleet in the 32nd Century. Making Burnham the new "Prophet" would certainly raise a few eyebrows though. But lets say that Kelpian Empire was a thing at that time the Dominion could be used on them.
Big flaw in your simulation, one that was done very poorly in STO, By the 25th century Starfleets warships would be considerably more advanced and that massive swarm of Dominion ships while still dangerous would have a much harder time and would loose. Also while I'm not a trekkie by any stretch of the term. The dark and evil progressive liberal propaganda, that permeates STD can kiss my white STD free butt. Seriously though I was for an STD and it came out negative, I intend to keep it that way. mwahahaha Man Doomcocks skit on STD are funnier then a rabbit snorting cocaine.
@@djmojo243 In Star Trek Online, the Prophets can't destroy, only move: they send the fleet to 2409-2410 (With several bugships showing up throughout Federation and Klingon space without crews beforehand.) And then they interrupt a conference on dealing with the Borg threat, which leads to the Female Changeling being release from prison and returned to the Dominion. I also wonder if they meddled in the mind of the Jem'Hadar First, who refused a direct order from a Founder. (We have seen the Prophets alter minds, such as with Grand Nagus Zek.)
The most effective part of the domion fleet was its simplicity by building only three ship types manufacturing has fewer choke points....something the federation should adopt even if the mission remains exploration
Post Wolf359, Starfleet sort of did. The Akira, Steamrunner, Saber, Defiant, and Sovereign were more simplified and streamlined for faster mass production. The Dominion just did it better but balanced out their ship building speed to match their clone production. Starfleet could pump out ships at a decent speed, but they were short on trained personnel to crew these new ships.
Wouldn’t photon torpedoes detonated within a swarm act like flak and lessen the effectiveness of said swarm. I ask this as in the ST universe we really don’t see combatants utilizing attack(fighter) size craft. If you watch Balance of terror the phasers are used almost like a depth charger. My thought anyway.
They didn't fly in that tight of a formation that a torpedo would harm multiple ships. Also, torpedoes in Star Trek are definitely impact weapons. We saw a torpedo used as a shockwave weapon once on TNG against a group of small Maquis fighters. They were knocked all over the place, but they're also two-man fighters with minimal shields.
Federation torpedoes are able to fragment into 5 smaller missiles. The Enterprise did it a few times throughout the series. That might be more effective.@@tbeller80
I would rather argue that the Dominion was different enough plus having spied on Alpha and Beta Powers to learn what they had and adapt to them preemptively. The result being they appeared more advanced, but the proof they were NOT is that the Dominion technologically could not adapt to the AnB Powers' adapting to the Dominions weapons and defenses, leveling the battlefield. The Dominion was forced into a war of attrition which was lost because they did not have the artificial advantage of "prep time", finding themselves worn down very quickly now that they were at best no more dangerous than anything else the AnB Powers have ever encountered. "Yes, we forgot how to wage war. But we kept very good notes for those times when we needed them." -A Retired Starfleet Admiral
something I've thought about from time to time. Who founded The Federation? Earth(history speaks for itself) Vulcan(nearly destroyed themselves through constant infighting) Andorians(a highly militaristic culture) and the Tellarites(hot tempered, love arguments and I have no doubt their engineering skills led them to build REALLY effective warships) conflict, anger, violence, never left those races and The Domininon War proved it- remember what Quark said about what happens when we get pushed too far.
@@josiahzabel8596 Feddies built Project Genesis in the movie era, who knows how much information V'Ger transmitted to them, they have the direct attention of the Q who are teaching them how to avoid blowing up the universe by accident with anti-time eruptions, Section 31 infected the Founders with a pathogen the Dominion could not cure... Feds are capital S Scary in terms of absolute power since they have the knowledge bases of all their member civs being freely given and put towards the purpose of prosperity and advancement for everyone... a purpose no other galactic civilization will offer other than the Borg... who require you to check your individuality at the door.
@@alphax4785 everything you said illustrates the point. Genesis wasn't intended as a weapon but was a REALLY effective one.... smart AND vicious when pushed.
I agree with your point about the tech advantage, but I disagree somewhat with your point about prep time. The main events which hampered the Dominion, IMO, were 1) denial of access to the wormhole, 2) poisoning of the Founders, and 3) the Romulans and Cardassians turning on the Dominion. 1 and 2 were completely unexpected events, so they couldn't have planned for that. 3, well, they didn't really trust solids, so I would think it was a worst case scenario, but if the first 2 events didn't happen, it would've been irrelevant.
The Dominion were clearly more advanced then any of the AnB powers dude, and had the prophets not intervened, they would have wiped them all out and conquered the alpha and beta quadrants in a matter of months. The war lasted two whole years, despite the fact that the dominion was completely cut off from any of their resources. They had to basically start from scratch. Rebuilding whole new fleets and even having to grow all new soldiers just for the war, and they still almost won. If they hadn’t of been cut off from literally thousands of years worth of built up resources in one of the most brutal and efficient war machines in the franchise, the dominion would have Conquered the AnB quadrants with little difficulty…………
They are the zerg of star trek. Mass production of disposable ships and crew, overwhelm the enemy with shear numbers. Quantity over quality. They do have some quality ships to be sure but they were few in number compared to the disposable scarabs.
The Jem’Hadar themselves were also among the greatest warrior species in Star Trek. While still being easy to mass produce. The dominion were a brutal faction. Had the prophets not intervened the war had of ended in months.
Really cool content, BRAVO Sir! Keep it coming... BTW - 4:27 onward, the Wormhole Aliens / Prophets, pushed that Dominion Fleet forward in time... They didn't just disappear.
The Dominion Fleet is perfect for fighting Borg. Their ships are cheap and easily replaced, often used for kamikaze attacks. It’s hard to adapt to Kenetic ramming. Vorta are physically weak, rendering them feeble drones and Jem Hadar depend on drugs to live, utterly useless to assimilate. Makes one wonder if the Dominion had fought the Borg before, and won.
I think nanoprobes would probably be able to produce the White themselves, or alter the physiology to not need it - like that one guy who happened to get lucky, thinking the planet he crashed on had cured him instead. I definitely agree the Vorta don't seem particularly special as drones, in the way Seven talked about it (Vulcan drones being predominantly used as computers instead of robot arms, and so forth). Either the Founders are completely immune to assimilation like 8472, or the nanoprobes turn the great link into grey goo... in that latter scenario, maybe the Borg even rebuild the interior of their ships to allow physical linking to happen in the alcoves, instead of just networking. If it were better in some way, I suppose.
Vorta also have suicide implants. They will terminate themselves when there's risk of assimilation to prevent valuable intelligence from falling into the hands of the Borg.
@@KingOfMadCows Maybe the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta are deemed unworthy of assimilation by the Borg like the Kazon are deemed unworthy of assimilation simply because they are genetically engineered by the Founders.
Dominion ships are definitely designed with aggressive push in mind, just about all their ships are forward firing arc heavy. But their reliance on cheap and dispensable ships also turns into a weakness. Their fleet composition seems to rely heavily on the smaller bug ships with a handful of battlecruisers and maybe a dreadnought or 2 bringing up the rear. If they lose too many bug ships, their larger capital ships are left exposed with no cover on their flanks. Though powerful, they don't seem to have much weapons pointing aft and they also seem to lack half decent turn radius. Even the Galaxy can out maneuver either and conduct strafing runs after ships like the Defiant, Steamrunner, and Sabers clear out the Jem'Hadar bug ships.
I wonder of this happened during the first Federation attack to recover DS9 after the Klingdon joined to help the Federation and sisko punch to head to the wormhole. Aka the combined fleet of Federation galaxy wings plus the birds of preys wiped the Cardassian support ships and the bugs. Then the battleships and cruisers were then overwhelmed.
I actually believe the majority of dominion forces crossed into the alpha quadrant before it was shut off. The 2600 ships they sent that the prophets “disappeared” were likely new ships and the last of their fleet. My reasoning for this has to do with the federations free roam capacity through the wormhole during and after the war. The dominion had no ability to hold their side of the wormhole and maintain their basic defensive operations. After the 2600 were lost, they never again tried to send through reinforcements, nor project their power to the wormhole. My guess is, they were economically devastated and were likely facing mass rebellion once it was realized that much of their fleet was wiped out. That’s the only reason I could think of for the dominion to behave so weakly on their side, and so ferociously on the Alpha quadrant side. They went all in... and they lost.
It could have been that they were unsure what happened to those 2600 ships and didn't want to risk another fleet trying to force its way through a narrow choke point if the Federation had developed some unknown defence that they couldn't really plan how to defeat. As for not defending the Gamma Quadrant side, well there's really no need to on their part, the Dominion's core was pretty far away from the wormhole and if they couldn't access the Alpha and Beta Quadrants from the wormhole the space around the wormhole was pretty worthless to the Dominion just like it was prior to them annexing it so beyond making a few reconnaissance runs there's no point holding that territory (and if the Federation/Klingons/Romulans ever counter-invaded through the wormhole their fleet doctrine work better in a less constrained environment).
The Federation was shifting its doctrine towards swarming too. Battle of sector 001, mass production of smaller crewed Defiant and Sabre class ships would have started to match the Dominion drawing the war to a stalemate and war of attrition. The alpha quadrant alliance vast area of space to pull back into being a key advantage. Look at everyone who’s ever tried invading Russia. Huge space to withdraw, rebuild and then wallop huge counter offensive..... Dominion lines from the wormhole and Cardassian space to long to protect
What is interesting about this is the idea of countering such a doctrine. One clear target for any enemy of the Dominion is to go after their infrastructure--sources of ketracel white, access to the wormhole, a targeted bioweapon aimed at the Founders, attacks on shipyards and other manufacturing facilities. Another vulnerability is to go after "soft" targets such as the support from Dominion Allies, which in terms of the Cardassians worked ultimately very well indeed. The Dominion did not after all treat their allies well, and this was one of their key weaknesses. Then of course there's the fact of defense in depth. Combined, the Federation with both Klingon and Romulan Empires are so vast the territories involved presented an inherent challenge the Dominion forces had to overcome.
The Dominion's capability to breed crews and soldiers at rates presented in the show is by far their greatest asset over the Alpha Quadrant power. More so then their polaron weapons, Breen energy dampers or even shipyard capacity. AQ powers would prove that when pushed to the limit they could match the Dominion in all aspects, except this one. To grow soldiers in manner of days and have them ready for combat in manner of weeks or months. Without such capacity, their fleet doctrine would still be effective, but not as devastating as it proved.
When the Romulan senator was insulting Sisko he pointed out two issues: one was that Starfleet had a manpower shortage. The second was that the Dominion's shipyards were working full tilt while Starfleet was still rebuilding theirs. He was right that manpower is a significant weakness compared to the Dominion, but his second point overlooked something important - Starfleet still had untapped industrial capacity. Even with these problems they were still winning a war of attrition until the Breen showed up. The Dominion struggled to assemble enough ships for a major counterattack at Chin'Toka and had to switch to drones for planetary defense. While Chin'Toka was still contested, the Romulans were retaking huge amounts of friendly territory. Edit: the war of attrition wasn't going in Starfleet's favor until the Romulans joined.
The Borg have been around a long time. I would think they have had run ins with the Dominion. A good reason for the Dominion to establish a powerful fleet able to keep the Borg out of their quadrant. I wouldn't be surprised if the drones aren't engineered to resist Borg assimilation as well.
Not necessarily the tech, but the Jem'Hadar are not what I think the Borg would find 'suitable material.' They are fanatical, blindly loyal, and deadly.
*(Pushes Up Glasses)* Ak-tu-ally... Yeah, the cadets on the Valiant, weren't 'Allowed' to crew the ship, they had been on a training cruise when the war broke out and the Dominion battleship didn't seem as if it ever had any escorts. Sorry to be nit-picky, the video is otherwise great. Dominion fleet and indeed their military doctrine as a whole seems to be based on simple, disposable assets that can just be hurled at the enemy in great numbers, giving them this odd combination of high-tech and low tech approach. For example, their Polaron weapons are very advanced, but are used on ships that are designed to be entirely disposable, same with the Jem'Hadar that crew them and even the weapons the Jem'Hadar use, with the standard weapons being plasma based, which is a technology most races abandoned for personal weapons centuries ago, but the Dominion use to brutal effect.
@@resurrectedstarships Also, the cadets were from Red Squad, the same cadets who were serving as Admiral Layton's commandos for his attempted coup on the Federation in the episode Paradise Lost. They apparently got shuffled off somewhere for 'Special Training' before anyone could question them in depth, so now we know where they were shuffled off to
@@resurrectedstarships Imagine using a swarm of thousands of remote controlled mirandas just for fodder while the Sovereings do their phaser barrage (fire at will), wiping the fleet easily. tHen using these mirandas for Jem Hadar style suicide attacks on the battleships :P Because.. using StarFleet plot lore. There are millions of mirandas and Oberts ready to explode somewhere.
It's not just the swarm tactics, but that their opponents had no answer for it. Starfleet is built around larger multi-purpose ships and even when the tech scales were balanced they struggled to deal with the numbers. Romulan warbirds are big and powerful, but a handful of smaller ships flying circles around them was too much and they were picked apart. Once Maquis fighters and Defiants began rolling off the assembly lines mixed with Birds of Prey the swarm meant less. Something the narrator didn't mention: The Dominion's capital ships were referred to as "batteries" and the battleship the Valiant was chasing was rumored to be a threat to entire colonies. Those ships are what the Dominion uses for orbital bombardment and genocide.
To be honest Star Trek has a few holes in all its factions, oddly as much as most fans dislike Discovery it actually fix’s one of the holes when at a climatic battle we see the TOS enterprise (commanded by Christopher Pike) launches waves of remote controlled drone fighter craft, we also see this idea in another Roddenberry show andromeda where the ships AI is able to launch and control waves of fighter craft simultaneously avoiding the need for pilots to be put in positions where they can be one-shot with a lucky or unlucky hit, these craft can then be used to attack or act as a defensive screen. On a side note this is somthing that bugs a lot of players of STO the game has lots of ships but what it calls carriers suck, 2 fighter craft do not count as a carrier, the closest thing the game has to a real carrier is the Jem’Hadar one it comes with two support craft can have two fighter wings and with a consoles can detach another craft for a total of 5 slots if you are lucky or well off you can get other consoles for the ship that can add a few more craft but it’s still not a full carrier, personally I would be cool if one ship had the option to put fighter crafts in the place of forward and aft weapons to make your ship into a real carrier but most MMO type games seam to hate the idea of a full pet class, sadly.
Easily one of the best mods made for any game, I love the dominion. Great video, maybe you could do a video about the sona I think they are called. They joined the war and it never realy made it to the series so far as I can tell.
The Dominion already had control over the Gamma Quadrant and didn't seem to have any near-peers there, so it would make sense for them to rely on a large fleet of small ships: Large in number to patrol the vast spaces of the Dominion, and small in individual size since they were highly unlikely to encounter any worthy enemies. Contrast that with Starfleet, which had a medium number of medium-to-large ships. Since the Federation was a democracy, Starfleet wasn't tasked with being an occupation force, and didn't need to have a ship for every sector of its space (note how often the Enterprise-D had to deal with problems alone because "the nearest Federation star ship was X days away"). And since Starfleet wasn't purely a military organization, its ships had to be larger to accommodate nonmilitary functions and crew. The different roles led to different fleet doctrines.
Can there be a Tactical Doctrine Analysis on the Cylons and the Colonies of Kobol from the reimagined 2000's series and Battlestar Galactica Deadlock? I wanna know how and why Cylons feel the need to use that weird 2 layered 'Y' shape, not to mention their obsession Missiles.
The double Y shape is easy to explain. Since Cylons prefer missiles over gun batteries, they need to maximize the amount of surface area for launchers. Furthermore, those launchers are best roughly pointed at the target so that the missiles don't have to waste time and energy to change their flight path. In short, having multiple long pylons protruding out from the main hull makes for a lot of effective missile launchers. As for why it is a Y shape instead of say an X or star shape, I can't tell you. As for the missile obsession, it makes sense as missiles give tactical flexibility to the Cylons. Not only do they have greater range than guns and can track, the missiles can also achieve a much greater volume of fire in the short term. Moreoever, since the Cylons are the technologically more advanced faction, they don't worry about missile jamming the way that the Colonials do; this also explains why the Colonial warships are gun-heavy.
Side note for the fun of it, The initial Dominion reinforcements that Sisko begs the prophets to help with were pushed forward in time. They appear 40 years after voyager's return and managed to take over Deep Space 9. You find this out in Star Trek online in one of the primary campaign arcs. You actually have to go get the female shape-shifter out of prison and have her talk to the leader of the Jem Hadar to try to get them to surrender, and then of course just end up killing them all when they refuse....
How do Star Trek weapons compare to that of weapons used by the Forerunners such as the Forerunner Hardlight and Slipspace weaponry in destructive capacity?
I don't think you talk about the biggest weakness of the Dominion, ketracel-white. For while it was great to keep the Jem'haddar under control, it meant that the Dominion can only keep a certain number active in one given moment. If they produce more troops then they can regularly supply, than they are more likely to run out. Which not only starve the Jem'haddar but cause them to go insane to the point they start killing their allies. Meaning, that destroying any ketracel-white facility meant the Dominion can only wield a fraction of their forces within any given campaign. Which means to counter Dominion war tactics is to go after supply lines and facilities producing ketracel-white, and let the Dominion stretch themselves to thin to properly control said territory.
I honestly don't thing the lack of a 'cruiser' class in the Dominion fleet was an issue. I've been tinkering around with military doctrine stuff for a project I've been working on and several of the faction don't have true cruisers. They have large gunship and small frigate platforms, and then go straight up to battleships and dreadnoughts. But few, or even no cruisers. I also have a faction that has gunships, but skips corvettes, frigates, and everything else under 'heavy' cruiser designations. Though, it really does depend on individual faction doctrine, and ship desgisn within a fleet. I seem to find that lower technology factions should field huge numbers of cruisers, while more advanced technology factions should use groups of gunships acting as cruisers, with actual battleships (and bigger) being their heavies. Kinda resembles our real world naval progression where cruisers gradually get phased out, or just completely outclassed, by battleships, battlecruisers, aircraft carriers, and then just destroyers and frigates being more and more effective and efficient than cruisers could be. Now, there are some great cruisers, the Des Moines, Clevelands, Hippers, and others. But in terms of space-naval combat, I don't really see those sort of cruiser analogues being all that great. Specialized cruisers (such as Missile Cruisers, or Planetary Assault Cruisers) still have rolls. But a swarm of cheaper, efficient smaller ships seems better - and a single much stronger battlecruiser, battleship, or dreadnought, also seems better.
@travisbe916 Also I`ve just thought about Borgs not using cloaks, given the fact they adapt all useful technology. So I guess not every species needs it for some reasons. With cloaking device Dominion might be less horrendous in a way 🙂
There are a few more types of dominion ship but its not always clear if its a naming error like dominion battleships and gem hadar battleships etc. There were the very large battleships being built by the dominion but were not complete by the end of the war so they were used as battle monitors in orbit of cardassia
It wasn't ONLY the Prophets intervention, though that was pretty decisive. The other considerations were: The size of the Federation and Klingon Empires (literally their volumes of space) The raw tenacity of both of the aforementioned powers Klingon willingness to die in battle Sisko going lawful evil on a Romulan senator Gul Dukat losing his damn mind Truthfully, wars of conquest have been decided on less (Dunkirk anyone?)
If I recall correctly Dominion reinforcements could not exit the wormhole because of self replicating mines. Which seems a bit strange why they couldn't just mass ram all the mines with a bunch of first wave ships destroying the minefields ability to reproduce if all the mines exploded at the same time, then all the other Dominion Ships could pour through. I suppose the wormhole opening might have been to narrow to use such said tactic?
I don't think the Dominion was the more technologically advanced. Generally, outside of their unique polaron beam weapons, and genetic technology being vastly superior, was inferior to the main Alpha Quadrant. Their ships were slower then the Federation, Romulan, and Klingons at wrap and even some of the smaller warships were faster then Dominion ships at impulse. Federation ship's shields were more powerful and became an issue to the Dominion when the Federation Alliance adapted their technology to counter polaron beam weapons and introduce Ablative Armor. And when you look at equal weight classes, generally the Federation Alliance ships destroy the Dominion counterpoint in one on one combat. To the point, I think it was stated the Dominion had to introduce the Battleship to counter heavier Federation, Romulan, and Klingon ships supported by large war fleets to counter Dominion swarm tactics. I think the most telling point was the fact the Dominion could only win battles with at least two to one or three to one odds to the alliance counterparts, and even then they began losing more often than not when Starfleet and the Klingons began replacing their aging warships for the more advance and powerful ones near the end of the war. While the Romulans introduce smaller starships to support the D'Dredix according to Beta Cannon. Plus, you did not talk about the biggest weakness of the Dominion, ketracel-white. For while it was great to keep the Jem'haddar under control, it meant that the Dominion can only keep a certain number active in one given moment. If they produce more troops then they can regularly supply, than they are more likely run out. Which not only starve the Jem'haddar but cause them to go insane to the point they start killing their allies. Meaning, that destroying any ketracel-white facility meant the Dominion can only wield a fraction of their forces within any given campaign. Which means to counter Dominion war tactics is to go after supply lines and facilities producing ketracel-white, and let the Dominion stretch themselves to thin to properly control said territory.
USS Odyssey held up quite well for having no shields. It was making it's withdrawal under impulse and it was only a kamikaze attack that destroyed her.
The Dominion simply caught the Alfa Quadrants powers by surprise. By the time it ended, the Federation was capable of replicating vast numbers of Defiant class ships with photonic crews. The could easily have matched the Dominion at their won game.
Not true at all. The dominion were completely cut off from all their resources, and had to build whole new fleets, grow all new soldiers, and do so without any of their existing ships yards or materials, and they still almost won the war. If you believe the AnB powers stood a chance against a full power dominion, you’re highly delusional.
I did some work for a story and notice something alone the Dominion outproduce the Federation in the Alpha only by 12 times of course one overlook thing about Dominion vessels because basics means set for mass production
You pretty much got it. Quantity (and the logistics to keep the military replenished) has often won wars. The Dominion added technological superiority to it, and they would've crushed the Alpha quadrant.
The dominion had incredibly skilled and efficient warriors that were incredibly expendable and easily replaced lead by genetically grown functionally immortal tactical and logistical genius’s utilizing easily mass produced and expendable ships with highly advanced weapons technology, while also utilizing extremely power warships to fill the gaps in their fleets. The dominion war machine was brutal, and among the most efficient in the entire franchise.
@@hazardous8301 Don't forget fanatically loyal. With very few exceptions the Jem Hadar will do absolutely anything the Founders order, including suicide.
The Dominion should have become like the Japanese, use Kamikaze tactics to reduce the fed, Romulan and Klingon fleet. If you only need about 1 or 2 to destroy a Galaxy.... then that is peanuts. I also wondered why no Changeling stole the devie that protected them from the polaron beams that could penetrate the shields...
Really Kamikaze Tactics are nothing new. It isn't strictly Japanese. Just the Japanese were coined with it. Because of the word used. This go back to the age of just bashing people with rocks. It is all about doing enough damage to the enemy without caring about the sacrifices. Germans did it as well. German Pilots trying to stop Ally Bombers would literally crash their planes into them. Even at some point. I bet you some lost cause Germans would rig themselves up as Suicide Bombers and blow themselves up to kill as many Russians (as Germans really hate Russians by that point in the war). Russians were no stranger into using such tactics. Though they would use more Swarm Tactics. It isn't so much of a Kamikaze run but when you see a wave of humanity charging in to a point. Just losing men left and right. Not stopping. Killing a German or two per ten lost. And just...well Zerg the position. As I see it. The Dominion used all the tactics in the book. Sabotage, Check. Spreading false information and intelligence, Check. Causing a war between two facts before pouncing, Check. Quickly gain a foothold, Check. And so on and so forth. They did it all. Even losing tactics.
@@Qardo whatever... I don't care about linguistic wordgames.... But what the Japanese mean by Kamikaze, is very close to what the Jem'hadar does and that is the only meaning I want to apply to the Jem'hadar
Also we see they aren't scared to do kamikaze runs on ships either which was a huge bonus to their tactics and something the Federation and her Allies couldn't defend against.
A Jem'Hadar can reach adulthood in 3 days and come out swinging, but he still probably required infantry and naval training to be part of an effective team.
@@tbeller80 I'm sure they did require some what of training but if you've seen what the dominion has done with genetic engineering, it would not surprise me if a large sum of that training was already apart of them
I always thought the lost Dominion fleet would make for a great movie. What if the Prophets didn’t destroy the fleet and simply expelled them from the worm hole? They would have been separated from the Founders with their last orders being to go to the Alpha quadrant to continue the war. Thus this huge fleet would be making its way to the alpha quadrant for years maybe decades until they showed up.
Imo the main problems with the main Dominion fleet are a lack of midsized ships. Also I think only having three ship classes is at least as much a weakness as it is a strength at best. It means the enemy only has to analyze three classes for exploitable flaws which would be much easier then analyzing a more varied fleet. And while the Dominion had some tech advantages I think the biggest one was the early capability of their weapons to penetrate Alpha Quadrant shields, which was negated by the time the war started, or at the latest the start of the war plus the time it took DS9's shield modifications to spread through the Alliance fleets.
We actually have a real world example of how that would go in a fight, and the answer is the smaller and more varied force loses. The US Navy during WW2 is pretty much the quintessential example of how such a war would play out. While the Japanese force that the Americans faced at the beginning of the war was objectively the more experienced and capable force, the US focused on a small number of more generalist ship types that could be produced and deployed at a rapid pace. Even counting combat losses, the US could count on 7,000 ships of different types in 1945 compared to the "just" 800 that they had in 1941.
@@roguerifter9724 Yes and no. Before the war, the US had a large number of varied classes in service within their respective roles. During the war, while these older classes did see service (as why wouldn't you use what you have), the US Navy standardised on a small number of generalist ships to pump out in massive numbers. Take the Fletcher/Allen/Gearing classes as a fine example. Before the war the US had a large number of specialist destroyer types in service. In 1939 they standardised on one basic frame which was later extended out to give specialist capabilities to a ship that was easy to produce and good at a wide variety of tasks. The Brooklyn/Cleveland/Fargo class of light cruisers, the most numerous ever built, are the exact same story. Take one basic frame that can be built in large numbers, and you can tack on what you need for specialist missions in sub-classes. In the world of Star Trek, which is what we're inevitably talking about, the Dominion fleet setup makes perfect sense. Space is unimaginably massive, so the more ships you can put into that space means the more overall damage you can do to an enemy. Each individual ship is going to be weaker than a competing foe, however you can pump out a ridiculous number of ships that give you a signifcian strategic maneuverability advantage over your opponent. Take the engagement with the USS Centaur as a prime example. A lone Starfleet ship on patrol engages a lone "enemy" bug ship and is absolutely able to hold its own. Then out of nowhere, three new bug ships appear on an intercept course. That is why a fleet based on small ships in massive numbers makes sense.
It doesn't negate the point I brought up though. Think about what happened with the Breen over Cardassia. The Defiant crew was able to locate a flaw in thier design then spread the word to the fleet. If a navy only has three combat ship classes then it has fewer designs to analyze for weak points, speeding the search for them. Also any flaws discovered impact more of the fleet. If a navy uses three or four classes of destroyer or alight cruiser and an exploitable flaw is found in one of those classes then it is less devastating then if they only use one class for that role. Unless the particular flaw effects all of the designs used for that role of course. Also the US navy had far more then three types of combat ship. From what we see of the Jem'Hadar fleet it has no ships in the size bracket between roughly the size of the Obreth class and roughly the size of the Galaxy class. It would be like if the World War II US navy had Destroyer Escorts then the next smallest class of warships were heavy cruisers.
@@roguerifter9724 That is effectively how the US Navy built itself during WW2 though. There was a focus primarily on Frigate, Destroyer, Light Cruiser and Carrier production during the war with Heavy Cruisers, Battleships and Battlecruisers fading into the background. While those ships were still used (a ship that you have is better than no ship), the smaller and lighter escorts supporting a capital ship much larger and more powerful than its small escorts is effectively how the US Navy was built during the war and how every navy with a capital ship operates today. It's important to note that while the US did indeed operate multiple ship classes within those types during the war most were legacy vessels already in service before the war. During, the US focused mostly on just one class within those types (Fletcher DD at 175 built, Cleveland CL at 27, Essex CV at 24, Casablanca CVE at 50 etc) with a few sub classes to fill the gaps. To your point about weak spots, this seems to be something that's only really mentioned in dialogue and in the Dominion War arc it isn't really seen on screen to any meaningful degree. If that were a genuine concern in the Star Trek universe, then ship classes that were pushing 100 years of age would have been retired long ago. Instead we see active moves not only to keep them in service, but to upgrade them with even newer weapons and technology to keep them relevant. I also feel that Star Trek ships are far more modular than we give them credit for. Take the Galaxy Class as a prime example. In the TNG and into the DS9 era, so much as sneezing at the secondary hull was enough to cause a warp core breech. A pretty obvious weak spot. Fast forward to Chin'toka and we see a Galaxy getting absolutely hammered in the secondary hull and she seems to just keep on flying without any major issues. So I think that, outside of the obvious structural weak areas, actual weak spots are not as fixed as say on a modern cruiser.
This is probably the closest of what would happen if the eve online universe invaded the star trek universe. Clones and swarm tactics supported by strong logistics. Even then,dominion crewed ships would be slow compared to capsuleer operated ships. Either way,you better have some sort of devine intervention in hopes to win.
@@Tonydjjokerit You forget,capsuleers can operate Triglavian vessels now and with cheap ships and clones,have no problems having porn level festivals of ramming the enemy into submission so the STU is still pretty fracked,pardon the pun.
@@WarbirdPhoenix They have to get close enough to do it,by then their ships are toast.With Trig and /or Capsuleer piloted Drifter ships ...maybe as both can hit at distance........but Species 8472 and Q???? NOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
@@Tonydjjokerit Just based on Dominion and New Eden brawling,after a defeated capsuleer wakes up in the next clone annoyed as all hell,they'll just fit the next ship with micro jump drives to get a book mark close in and have a tanked cyno buddy standing by for a fleet drop. Speaking of fleet drops,would be fun seeing a vid about Eve-Online capsuleer fleets vs ST Dominion fleets vs Star Wars clone fleets actually. The ultimate clone Wars,😆 Now with 8472,sure they'd be justified as unfettered capsuleer greed can devastate where ever they fly and Q would just be simply amused or won't give a frack.
@@WarbirdPhoenix CAPITAL IDEA!!RESPECT for that Warbird Phoenix.It would be very interesting how Darth Vader and Palpatine will cope with Q's sarcastic put downs and insults LOL!!!! The Capsuleers will be weeping in their beers when Q hurls his Sardonic wit,Sarcastic put downs and original insults at them DOUBLE LOL!!!!!!!
But what would Thrawn say? I feel like the Dominion is the closest in military philosophy with the Empire - large ships for intimidation combined with an emphasis on overwhelming force and expendable cannon-fodder.
The issues their though, is the Jem’Hadar may have been expendable, but they were also elite soldiers genetically grown and were the perfect warriors. The dominion also didn’t have a complicated political scene, with people constantly trying to undermine their peers in a attempt to get ahead and climb the ladder. The dominion were a considerably more efficient military machine then the empire. Nearly winning a war in which they had to fight with zero of their existing resources. While the empire lost to a small rebellion whose military might was mostly made up of repurposed civilian vessels and equipment.
jem'hadar attack ships were certainly effective. and one suspects that they and the battle-cruiser are longstanding dominion designs. i think that the battleship was designed in the alpha quadrant specifically to match the Romulan D'deridex which was otherwise without equal. the romulans were fortunate that the dominion likely never produced them in significant numbers. but ships like the Defiant and Neorexan proved ideal for countering the Jem'hadar fighters.
I don't think the Dominion was more advanced, just different. Plus they had excellent intel the Alpha quadrant powers had no hope in replicating. .Also there was at least 3 survivors. The engineer, Jake and Nog.
Starfleet: we can muster five 1000-man capitol ships in a week. Dominion: we can muster 200 20-man ships in a week. I don't really know how long it took the Dominion to assemble their ambush of the Obsidian Order fleet, but I can't imagine it took long. They sent 250 ships to Cardassia in a month when Dukat joined them.
Combined sure, but individually no. You severely underestimate the dominion just because they lost the war. The dominion nearly won against the United powers of the Federation, Klingon empire, and the Romulan Star empire, and they did so without access to any of their existing resources. They literally had to rebuild their entire military infrastructure from scratch, while the war was already in full swing. Mean while the full power of the dominion has been around for thousands of years, and has full and uncontested control over a entire quadrant and it’s resources. 8472 was powerful, the the main reason they shit on the borg so hard was because the borg couldn’t adapt to their tech, or assimilate them. Krenim were powerful, but I wouldn’t compare them to borg or dominion. Their most impressive feats were that they were just good at fucking with time until they got their desired outcome. As for the borg themselves. Vorta have suicide implants, making them impossible to assimilate. Jem’Hadar generally don’t have information on the over all inner workings of the dominion, making the info the borg could get from assimilating them of little consequence, on top of the fact that dominion soldiers would sooner make suicide runs on borg vessels then loose the battle, leaving little to assimilate in the first place. As for the founders themselves, even if the borg could find them, it’s unlikely they could assimilate them, leaving them in a similar situation they were left in with the Undine(species 8472)not to mention the borg have been fought off(albeit with extreme difficulty)but the federation Klingons and romulans United forces on more then one occasion, and the dominion as previous stated nearly beat them with only a tiny fraction of their and resources. The dominion have the tech, resources, and numbers to fight off the borg, with their races and war doctrine being nearly perfect for doing so. Not saying the dominion would for sure beat these races, but they are definitely on their level, and wouldn’t be Crushed by any of them without a serious fight. People often underestimate the dominion just because they lost the war, as if their wasn’t any unique circumstances they literally destroyed their odds of winning. From the founders being infects with a fatal virus, and being betrayed by their allies, to literally being completely cut off from all their resources, and having to completely rebuild their entire military from scratch, without access to any of their existing materials and infrastructures.
The best villains in Star Trek. Shame they were nerfed towards the end of the series. There was so much to explore in a new series in the Gamma quadrant.
The irony of whole Dominion war is even they won against federation and its allies, they would have ultimately lost the very core of existence with Founder being killed off by Section 31 vuris and neither the Founder or Dominion would have known who done it.
It’s certainly possible. The dominion nearly defeated all the major powers of the AnB with only a tiny fraction of their power. Only loosing because they not only had to build all new fleets and even grow all new soldiers from scratch due to the prophets blocking access to any of their existing resources, but on top of that, they were also betrayed by their allies, and their leaders were infected with a deadly virus. The dominion have the number, the tech, and the resources, and fire power to beat the borg. On top of that the vorta have suicide implants, making them impossible to assimilate. The Jem’Hadar generally don’t posses useful information on the wide working of the dominion, making the info the borg could get from them through assimilation of little use. Plus they’d also sooner make suicide runs of the borg ships then lose the battle, leaving little for the borg to assimilate in the first place, and even if the borg could find the founders home world, it’s also highly unlikely the borg could even assimilate them.
I recognize these tactics, they're not Dominion, this is classic CFC 🤗 I do believe The Mittani is actually a changeling, there's no other explanation for his success as a spymaster. The Federation wouldn't know what to do if they had to fight the Goons 😄
The dominion almost Zerg Rushed the entire alpha quadrant until a mod decided it was too much cheese and shut their Hatcheries down
instaBlaster...
I would speculate that having a wormhole as the chokepoint was an advantage for the Dominion, as was taking on the Cardassian Union as a subsidiary ally. The Dominion was scouted and spied on, but never properly invaded the way they invaded the Alpha Quadrant. Also, the Dominion was preparing deliberately and premeditatively for war, and had the advantage of shapeshifting spies and native informants in the Alpha Quadrant. It wasn't just tactics, but strategic preparation that allowed them to overpower the opposition nearest the wormhole, the Federation advance fleet, in a matter of months.
Additionally, their entire empire seemed to be organized around nothing but the founders and implementing their will with intimidation and military force. They had no art, no culture, no pursuits of inquiry beyond 'how do we bring external power X under our Dominion?' That means that nothing the Dominion did was enriching or elevating, scientifically or otherwise. So mass-producing ships and soldiers, while tactically and strategically an overwhelming advantage, left nothing in the dominion that would make anybody other than indoctrinated zealots want to defend or expand it.
Don't forget that they also had the advantage of shapeshifting spies and a previously established network of informants in the Alpha Quadrant. They also conducted a nonviolent psychological experiment on the Defiant command officers to see how they would respond to a threat, beginning from infiltration to diplomatic subversion to direct assault. They thoroughly mapped out their opponents before attacking - that's probably why the Dominion has lasted for so many centuries; they are slow, careful, methodical, and completely unrestrained by ethics.
From what I seen about the Dominion fleet tatics from the DS9 is that half of their tatics are psychological and the other half is classic ship to ship engagement. The Dominion have shown that they will use kamikaze attacks to demoralize an enemy, to sow confusion, and to soften up the enemy's fleet. That way the cruisers and battleships can move in to finished the enemy fleet off.
Next, let's see the tactical doctrine of the Terran Empire.
I predict Cardassian Union will be next. I bet my 1st born an 2 camels =)
Stab rival in back, Shade...
Pretty much let others do the hard work, then steal credit and reap the rewards.
Sfdebries once said it best:
When the terran empire were a backstabbing, infighting mob they manahed to create and maintain an expanding empire, crushing all resistence.
The moment they mellow out, they fail.
Maybe they should go and talk to Worf again.
Exceprt from the Analysis Report from the Inter-Universe Assessment Division. Special Consultant: Mitth’raw’nourodo, Chiss Ascendency.
“A most interesting enemy. Supposedly, the Vorta and Jem’Hadar are genetically incapable of understanding aesthetics, and so make no art. Thus, I can find little in their tactics from the fleet and vessel designs. However, the tactics are reflective of their designers: The Changelings Of the Omarion Nebula. As the changelings alter their millions of cells to form the shapes of their desires, so to does their fleet consist of large numbers of smaller units, forming and reforming into their desired shape and form.
Their ability to assimilate new shapes and cultures into their dominion and fighting force, without truly changing themselves, shows a unique sense of self, and an unwavering belief in their own perfection.
This enemy is likely highly skilled in early planning, often able to make nigh-perfect plans and early steps, exceptionally skilled in making use of limited resources, but incapable of adapting to unforeseen changes to their plans.”
That is a very Thrawn way of putting it.
Obedience brings victory and Victory is life!
@@barrybend7189 makes me wonder what he would think of The Cardassians, given that the same shape, or variants of it reoccur time and again in their art.
guess this was written before he was exiled, since he identifies himself as part of the Chiss Ascendancy, not The Empire?
@@josiahzabel8596 Given the circumstances, it's possible this Thrawn never left at all.
The Dominion should've won (or at least pushed back the Federation to it's core worlds), and then fallen apart after the *Founders all die* from that _mysterious_ plague…
All of them - including the Gamma Quadrant Founders (maybe a lost scout survives?).
The question is what happens to the Dominion afterwards, could another member species step up to fill the gap? Would it still hold together or would it separate into individual species or even factions?
Could the Jem'Hadar still get the White? They didn't make it for security reasons.
And there were probably other species that did the logistics and engineering. It doesn't seem like something the Vorta or Jem'Hadar would do.
Anyway, if the Wormhole Aliens hadn't helped to make the retaking of DS9 a possibility, Odo would have never rejoined the crew and Bashir wouldn't have discovered the origins of the disease.
As for Section 31, a slight tweaking of their plans would have ensured a even greater victory… follow the path after Odo rejoins the Federation.
Odo is secretly cured without his knowledge before he ever shows symptoms (maybe during a Starfleet medical back at HQ) so to everyone (including Bashir) it looks like he was never infected. Which means that the virus was introduced after the female Changeling had contact with him.
So the Federation is innocent of bio warfare _due to lack of opportunity…!_
Odo is advised to stay away from all Founders for his own sake and the sake of his species (he being the only uninfected) and may even be placed in quarantine for _"his own protection"._
Then Intel is _"accidently"_ leaked that implicates the Breen as the source of the virus, as an attempt to usurp the Founders and take control of the Dominion for themselves - the timing does match … …
Having a reputation for being devious and mysterious can be a issue at times.
So the Dominion in its final days turns on the Breen, eliminating a long term existential threat to the Federation. And once all the Founders are dead the Dominion species all turn to obey the one surviving Changeling - *Odo.*
The Dominion now follow the rule of a security officer from a Starfleet base.
Starfleet now "owns" the Gamma Quadrant and all the Dominion forces. Other Alpha powers are totally outclassed and they know it.
The Federation+Dominion is a whole new league of power, especially as Starfleet with it's history of innovation and unconventional tactics and the Dominion with it's singular focus, logistics and rapidly grown optimised species complement each other.
Then the Federation moves into the Gamma Quadrant and works to make the Dominion benevolent and liberate the oppressed species, who would leap at the chance to join the Federation, if only out of gratitude. After a while the Dominion species now view themselves as Federation species (imagine a non White addicted Jem'Hadar that fanatically believed in the ideals of the Federation and swore to defend them…)
The Federation now controls two Quadrants, and the Beta Quadrant is swinging their way as well due to slow creep and cultural contamination.
Section 31 quietly purges it's records and all knowledge of their involvement, just in case.
i want to see that in a what if series right now!
Then the Borg,species 8472 and the Krenimwill attack the Alpha and Beta quadrant and a new war with the Delta quadrant will take place
Section 31 curing Odo such that no one could trace or cure the xenocide of the rest of the Founders is both genius and absolutely in character for them. But I don't think the Federation in whole would be the least bit willing to absorb the Founderless Dominion. For one thing their only way through is by the leave of the Prophets who might not be so willing once Sisko's taken care of the omnicidal Pah Wraiths AND for another Section 31 showed no interest in encouraging Federation 'manifest destiny'ism' and would almost certainly oppose such after the Federation only wins due to the Dominion having a single point of failure in the Founders. I think the Federation would be willing to work with Odo in reconstructing the Dominion as a friendly 'co-equal' galactic power much as they did with the Klingons at Khitomer and with Gowron (before he went nanners) and then Martok.
I also don't think many of the Dominion races would be as grateful as you think considering their only exposure to the war up until the last Founder dies will have been building the war material and being fed Dominion propaganda, if even that considering it's only been the Jem Hadar, Vorta and a few Founders actually fighting the war. We also don't know anything about the internal stresses and conflicts between Dominion subject races, Odo releasing the iron grip of the Jem Hadar and Vorta could result in anything from Federation: Gamma Quadrant version to Syrian Civil War: Gamma Quadrant version.
Section 31 thus has fulfilled it's duty as the scariest mofos of any of the galactic power intelligence branches all without exposing themselves to people they know are potential enemies internally. And yeah I get why they couldn't do that in the show.
Great what-if story! Star Trek being Star Trek, though, Bashir would've found traces of the antidote, and deduced what happened.
Damn now thats some writing for a show they need to hire you
Ah, those cringy times with the emissary. They did have their moments. Thankfully, the show ended on a happy note with a traditional Bajoran wedding of staring out a window.
All shenanigans aside, another cool vid with an epic vibe. I don't know if you could call Dominion tech more advanced (can't remember anyone saying so canonically), as it was more like one gimmick versus another. At the start, the Dominion had intel they could build their ships around plus a weapon that could beat Federation shields. Near the end of the war, the tables had turned as Dominion bugs were shredded up like paper. The captured bug probably helped a lot with that. It was their industry and manpower (Jem-power?) that gave them an edge against the Federation. They used intelligence to draw enemy offensives into a grinder, then harassed the front lines until they found a weak spot. Combine this with their swarm/shock fleet tactics, and they had the perfect formula for defeating the Federation.
Where Thrawn is concerned, the Dominion may not have had much of a culture, but they had a maniacal propaganda system. Trade one or two blows with a Dominion fleet, and Thrawn would have them figured out. Without any backstory, the Changelings would be the greatest threat as the Dominion was initially pretty good at masking their existence. Thrawn likes unique maneuvers and new technology to change the rules of the battlefield. Thrawn's employed tech versus Changeling infiltration would be like a contest between two fighters who only dealt lethal blows.
There were three survivors of the USS Valiant: Jake, Nog, and Dorian Collins, one of the Red Squad cadets.
In a way the Dominion War is very similar to the initial Concept of the Clone Wars (One of them anyway as presented in the Thrawn Trilogy). An aggressive outside power using Cloned Armies to attack the Federation/Republic. Maybe one of the writers of DS9 was somewhat inspired by the few mentions in the Thrawn Trilogy (As it was released shortly before DS9 began production).
Just imagine a Jedi Knight fighting Jem'Hadar....
If those Dominion Ships are held "Out of Time" imagine how useful they could be brought back at the exactly right moment.
They could be used to stomp some baddies in the 32nd Century or to go toe to toe with a resurgent Borg presence.
The Prophets don't even have to exit them from the same exit - as If I recall correctly they can move the location of the exit aperture anywhere they like.
Imagine Discovery was written by someone with the sort of brains of Joe Michael Strazinski and then think of the fun things you could do with that Fleet in the 32nd Century. Making Burnham the new "Prophet" would certainly raise a few eyebrows though.
But lets say that Kelpian Empire was a thing at that time the Dominion could be used on them.
Big flaw in your simulation, one that was done very poorly in STO, By the 25th century Starfleets warships would be considerably more advanced and that massive swarm of Dominion ships while still dangerous would have a much harder time and would loose.
Also while I'm not a trekkie by any stretch of the term. The dark and evil progressive liberal propaganda, that permeates STD can kiss my white STD free butt.
Seriously though I was for an STD and it came out negative, I intend to keep it that way. mwahahaha Man Doomcocks skit on STD are funnier then a rabbit snorting cocaine.
It's a good bet they were extinguished by the Prophets
@@djmojo243 In Star Trek Online, the Prophets can't destroy, only move: they send the fleet to 2409-2410 (With several bugships showing up throughout Federation and Klingon space without crews beforehand.) And then they interrupt a conference on dealing with the Borg threat, which leads to the Female Changeling being release from prison and returned to the Dominion. I also wonder if they meddled in the mind of the Jem'Hadar First, who refused a direct order from a Founder. (We have seen the Prophets alter minds, such as with Grand Nagus Zek.)
Nothing about the Kamikaze attacks and mindset?
The most effective part of the domion fleet was its simplicity by building only three ship types manufacturing has fewer choke points....something the federation should adopt even if the mission remains exploration
Post Wolf359, Starfleet sort of did. The Akira, Steamrunner, Saber, Defiant, and Sovereign were more simplified and streamlined for faster mass production. The Dominion just did it better but balanced out their ship building speed to match their clone production. Starfleet could pump out ships at a decent speed, but they were short on trained personnel to crew these new ships.
@@HeadlessChickenTO time to build thousands of photonic and Soong style androids. thousands of Datas!
@@CesarinPillinGaming naw, holographic Drs with a bunch of patches and upgrades.
@@ZacLowing even better, make the doctors (versions of both the normal and Dr. Bashir) hurling witty insults to the enemy as they suicide run XD
The federation kinda did it in ST Picard
A serialized warship
Accompany it with many defiants and bam
The Dominion Fleet Doctrine is thus:
Pew pew pew.
Repeat as required.
Kiss method is usually the best
K eep
I t
S tupidly
S imple
Wouldn’t photon torpedoes detonated within a swarm act like flak and lessen the effectiveness of said swarm. I ask this as in the ST universe we really don’t see combatants utilizing attack(fighter) size craft. If you watch Balance of terror the phasers are used almost like a depth charger. My thought anyway.
They didn't fly in that tight of a formation that a torpedo would harm multiple ships. Also, torpedoes in Star Trek are definitely impact weapons. We saw a torpedo used as a shockwave weapon once on TNG against a group of small Maquis fighters. They were knocked all over the place, but they're also two-man fighters with minimal shields.
Federation torpedoes are able to fragment into 5 smaller missiles. The Enterprise did it a few times throughout the series. That might be more effective.@@tbeller80
I would rather argue that the Dominion was different enough plus having spied on Alpha and Beta Powers to learn what they had and adapt to them preemptively. The result being they appeared more advanced, but the proof they were NOT is that the Dominion technologically could not adapt to the AnB Powers' adapting to the Dominions weapons and defenses, leveling the battlefield. The Dominion was forced into a war of attrition which was lost because they did not have the artificial advantage of "prep time", finding themselves worn down very quickly now that they were at best no more dangerous than anything else the AnB Powers have ever encountered.
"Yes, we forgot how to wage war. But we kept very good notes for those times when we needed them." -A Retired Starfleet Admiral
something I've thought about from time to time. Who founded The Federation? Earth(history speaks for itself) Vulcan(nearly destroyed themselves through constant infighting) Andorians(a highly militaristic culture) and the Tellarites(hot tempered, love arguments and I have no doubt their engineering skills led them to build REALLY effective warships) conflict, anger, violence, never left those races and The Domininon War proved it- remember what Quark said about what happens when we get pushed too far.
@@josiahzabel8596 Feddies built Project Genesis in the movie era, who knows how much information V'Ger transmitted to them, they have the direct attention of the Q who are teaching them how to avoid blowing up the universe by accident with anti-time eruptions, Section 31 infected the Founders with a pathogen the Dominion could not cure... Feds are capital S Scary in terms of absolute power since they have the knowledge bases of all their member civs being freely given and put towards the purpose of prosperity and advancement for everyone... a purpose no other galactic civilization will offer other than the Borg... who require you to check your individuality at the door.
@@alphax4785 everything you said illustrates the point. Genesis wasn't intended as a weapon but was a REALLY effective one.... smart AND vicious when pushed.
I agree with your point about the tech advantage, but I disagree somewhat with your point about prep time. The main events which hampered the Dominion, IMO, were 1) denial of access to the wormhole, 2) poisoning of the Founders, and 3) the Romulans and Cardassians turning on the Dominion. 1 and 2 were completely unexpected events, so they couldn't have planned for that. 3, well, they didn't really trust solids, so I would think it was a worst case scenario, but if the first 2 events didn't happen, it would've been irrelevant.
The Dominion were clearly more advanced then any of the AnB powers dude, and had the prophets not intervened, they would have wiped them all out and conquered the alpha and beta quadrants in a matter of months. The war lasted two whole years, despite the fact that the dominion was completely cut off from any of their resources. They had to basically start from scratch. Rebuilding whole new fleets and even having to grow all new soldiers just for the war, and they still almost won. If they hadn’t of been cut off from literally thousands of years worth of built up resources in one of the most brutal and efficient war machines in the franchise, the dominion would have Conquered the AnB quadrants with little difficulty…………
They are the zerg of star trek. Mass production of disposable ships and crew, overwhelm the enemy with shear numbers. Quantity over quality. They do have some quality ships to be sure but they were few in number compared to the disposable scarabs.
The Jem’Hadar themselves were also among the greatest warrior species in Star Trek. While still being easy to mass produce. The dominion were a brutal faction. Had the prophets not intervened the war had of ended in months.
Really cool content, BRAVO Sir!
Keep it coming...
BTW - 4:27 onward, the Wormhole Aliens / Prophets, pushed that Dominion Fleet forward in time... They didn't just disappear.
Yes according to Star Trek Online - was a good story.
@@resurrectedstarships Goooood, the Force is strong with you... =)
The Dominion Fleet is perfect for fighting Borg. Their ships are cheap and easily replaced, often used for kamikaze attacks. It’s hard to adapt to Kenetic ramming. Vorta are physically weak, rendering them feeble drones and Jem Hadar depend on drugs to live, utterly useless to assimilate. Makes one wonder if the Dominion had fought the Borg before, and won.
I think nanoprobes would probably be able to produce the White themselves, or alter the physiology to not need it - like that one guy who happened to get lucky, thinking the planet he crashed on had cured him instead. I definitely agree the Vorta don't seem particularly special as drones, in the way Seven talked about it (Vulcan drones being predominantly used as computers instead of robot arms, and so forth).
Either the Founders are completely immune to assimilation like 8472, or the nanoprobes turn the great link into grey goo... in that latter scenario, maybe the Borg even rebuild the interior of their ships to allow physical linking to happen in the alcoves, instead of just networking. If it were better in some way, I suppose.
Vorta also have suicide implants. They will terminate themselves when there's risk of assimilation to prevent valuable intelligence from falling into the hands of the Borg.
@@KingOfMadCows Maybe the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta are deemed unworthy of assimilation by the Borg like the Kazon are deemed unworthy of assimilation simply because they are genetically engineered by the Founders.
0:20 Sisko may have accurately foretold the coming Dominion invasion, but he didn’t foresee that putting his commbadge there would look stupid...
Thankfully, it was only there during that episode.
pepperVenge I think it was in Rapture and a few scenes in The Darkness and the Light as well, but yeh, thank the Prophets he got rid of it!
Dominion ships are definitely designed with aggressive push in mind, just about all their ships are forward firing arc heavy. But their reliance on cheap and dispensable ships also turns into a weakness. Their fleet composition seems to rely heavily on the smaller bug ships with a handful of battlecruisers and maybe a dreadnought or 2 bringing up the rear. If they lose too many bug ships, their larger capital ships are left exposed with no cover on their flanks. Though powerful, they don't seem to have much weapons pointing aft and they also seem to lack half decent turn radius. Even the Galaxy can out maneuver either and conduct strafing runs after ships like the Defiant, Steamrunner, and Sabers clear out the Jem'Hadar bug ships.
I wonder of this happened during the first Federation attack to recover DS9 after the Klingdon joined to help the Federation and sisko punch to head to the wormhole. Aka the combined fleet of Federation galaxy wings plus the birds of preys wiped the Cardassian support ships and the bugs. Then the battleships and cruisers were then overwhelmed.
Yup Star Fleet almost lost because the hippies were in charge for way to long
I always like how the video games flesh out the various fleets in Star Trek.
I actually believe the majority of dominion forces crossed into the alpha quadrant before it was shut off. The 2600 ships they sent that the prophets “disappeared” were likely new ships and the last of their fleet. My reasoning for this has to do with the federations free roam capacity through the wormhole during and after the war.
The dominion had no ability to hold their side of the wormhole and maintain their basic defensive operations. After the 2600 were lost, they never again tried to send through reinforcements, nor project their power to the wormhole.
My guess is, they were economically devastated and were likely facing mass rebellion once it was realized that much of their fleet was wiped out.
That’s the only reason I could think of for the dominion to behave so weakly on their side, and so ferociously on the Alpha quadrant side.
They went all in... and they lost.
It could have been that they were unsure what happened to those 2600 ships and didn't want to risk another fleet trying to force its way through a narrow choke point if the Federation had developed some unknown defence that they couldn't really plan how to defeat. As for not defending the Gamma Quadrant side, well there's really no need to on their part, the Dominion's core was pretty far away from the wormhole and if they couldn't access the Alpha and Beta Quadrants from the wormhole the space around the wormhole was pretty worthless to the Dominion just like it was prior to them annexing it so beyond making a few reconnaissance runs there's no point holding that territory (and if the Federation/Klingons/Romulans ever counter-invaded through the wormhole their fleet doctrine work better in a less constrained environment).
It was 2800, not 2600.
Awesome vid! 👍👍🤘 I love how you used Armada 3 game footage for your vid. That mod is absolutely fantastic and worked perfect for your vid i think. 🤙
um the valiant had 3 survivors jake, nog and cadet collins.
The Federation was shifting its doctrine towards swarming too. Battle of sector 001, mass production of smaller crewed Defiant and Sabre class ships would have started to match the Dominion drawing the war to a stalemate and war of attrition. The alpha quadrant alliance vast area of space to pull back into being a key advantage. Look at everyone who’s ever tried invading Russia. Huge space to withdraw, rebuild and then wallop huge counter offensive..... Dominion lines from the wormhole and Cardassian space to long to protect
What is interesting about this is the idea of countering such a doctrine. One clear target for any enemy of the Dominion is to go after their infrastructure--sources of ketracel white, access to the wormhole, a targeted bioweapon aimed at the Founders, attacks on shipyards and other manufacturing facilities. Another vulnerability is to go after "soft" targets such as the support from Dominion Allies, which in terms of the Cardassians worked ultimately very well indeed. The Dominion did not after all treat their allies well, and this was one of their key weaknesses. Then of course there's the fact of defense in depth. Combined, the Federation with both Klingon and Romulan Empires are so vast the territories involved presented an inherent challenge the Dominion forces had to overcome.
The Dominion's capability to breed crews and soldiers at rates presented in the show is by far their greatest asset over the Alpha Quadrant power. More so then their polaron weapons, Breen energy dampers or even shipyard capacity. AQ powers would prove that when pushed to the limit they could match the Dominion in all aspects, except this one. To grow soldiers in manner of days and have them ready for combat in manner of weeks or months. Without such capacity, their fleet doctrine would still be effective, but not as devastating as it proved.
When the Romulan senator was insulting Sisko he pointed out two issues: one was that Starfleet had a manpower shortage. The second was that the Dominion's shipyards were working full tilt while Starfleet was still rebuilding theirs. He was right that manpower is a significant weakness compared to the Dominion, but his second point overlooked something important - Starfleet still had untapped industrial capacity. Even with these problems they were still winning a war of attrition until the Breen showed up. The Dominion struggled to assemble enough ships for a major counterattack at Chin'Toka and had to switch to drones for planetary defense. While Chin'Toka was still contested, the Romulans were retaking huge amounts of friendly territory.
Edit: the war of attrition wasn't going in Starfleet's favor until the Romulans joined.
@@tbeller80 true!
The designation of "Fighter" may have come from old star trek games when the smallest Klingon warships were called fighters.
I NEED THIS MOD! Star Trek Armada 1 and 2 were my favorite PC games growing up!
It's pointless to wonder about a Dominion victory. This is STAAAR TREEEEEEK! (screamed in "300" fashion)
I loved teh dominion ships when i first saw them, they are my second favorite warships in star trek next to the klingons.
The Borg have been around a long time. I would think they have had run ins with the Dominion. A good reason for the Dominion to establish a powerful fleet able to keep the Borg out of their quadrant. I wouldn't be surprised if the drones aren't engineered to resist Borg assimilation as well.
Not necessarily the tech, but the Jem'Hadar are not what I think the Borg would find 'suitable material.' They are fanatical, blindly loyal, and deadly.
*(Pushes Up Glasses)* Ak-tu-ally... Yeah, the cadets on the Valiant, weren't 'Allowed' to crew the ship, they had been on a training cruise when the war broke out and the Dominion battleship didn't seem as if it ever had any escorts. Sorry to be nit-picky, the video is otherwise great. Dominion fleet and indeed their military doctrine as a whole seems to be based on simple, disposable assets that can just be hurled at the enemy in great numbers, giving them this odd combination of high-tech and low tech approach. For example, their Polaron weapons are very advanced, but are used on ships that are designed to be entirely disposable, same with the Jem'Hadar that crew them and even the weapons the Jem'Hadar use, with the standard weapons being plasma based, which is a technology most races abandoned for personal weapons centuries ago, but the Dominion use to brutal effect.
They should train them on old falling apart Miranda class ships instead. :)
@@resurrectedstarships Also, the cadets were from Red Squad, the same cadets who were serving as Admiral Layton's commandos for his attempted coup on the Federation in the episode Paradise Lost. They apparently got shuffled off somewhere for 'Special Training' before anyone could question them in depth, so now we know where they were shuffled off to
@@resurrectedstarships Imagine using a swarm of thousands of remote controlled mirandas just for fodder while the Sovereings do their phaser barrage (fire at will), wiping the fleet easily. tHen using these mirandas for Jem Hadar style suicide attacks on the battleships :P
Because.. using StarFleet plot lore. There are millions of mirandas and Oberts ready to explode somewhere.
@@resurrectedstarships using a cutting edge warship as a shake-down cruise for a bunch of students seems like a real waste of resources.
@@weldonwin The Valiant was a ship full of Wesley Crusher's
It's not just the swarm tactics, but that their opponents had no answer for it. Starfleet is built around larger multi-purpose ships and even when the tech scales were balanced they struggled to deal with the numbers. Romulan warbirds are big and powerful, but a handful of smaller ships flying circles around them was too much and they were picked apart. Once Maquis fighters and Defiants began rolling off the assembly lines mixed with Birds of Prey the swarm meant less.
Something the narrator didn't mention: The Dominion's capital ships were referred to as "batteries" and the battleship the Valiant was chasing was rumored to be a threat to entire colonies. Those ships are what the Dominion uses for orbital bombardment and genocide.
To be honest Star Trek has a few holes in all its factions, oddly as much as most fans dislike Discovery it actually fix’s one of the holes when at a climatic battle we see the TOS enterprise (commanded by Christopher Pike) launches waves of remote controlled drone fighter craft, we also see this idea in another Roddenberry show andromeda where the ships AI is able to launch and control waves of fighter craft simultaneously avoiding the need for pilots to be put in positions where they can be one-shot with a lucky or unlucky hit, these craft can then be used to attack or act as a defensive screen.
On a side note this is somthing that bugs a lot of players of STO the game has lots of ships but what it calls carriers suck, 2 fighter craft do not count as a carrier, the closest thing the game has to a real carrier is the Jem’Hadar one it comes with two support craft can have two fighter wings and with a consoles can detach another craft for a total of 5 slots if you are lucky or well off you can get other consoles for the ship that can add a few more craft but it’s still not a full carrier, personally I would be cool if one ship had the option to put fighter crafts in the place of forward and aft weapons to make your ship into a real carrier but most MMO type games seam to hate the idea of a full pet class, sadly.
I love seeing SINS footage in these Armada 3 rocks
Easily one of the best mods made for any game, I love the dominion. Great video, maybe you could do a video about the sona I think they are called. They joined the war and it never realy made it to the series so far as I can tell.
I approve with one provision. There is another weakness in the Dominions swarm. That is the Jem'har and Vorta relationship.
Never underestimate the power of the script..
More Birds of Prey needed. The only non Defiant ship of any use against the Dominion
The Dominion already had control over the Gamma Quadrant and didn't seem to have any near-peers there, so it would make sense for them to rely on a large fleet of small ships: Large in number to patrol the vast spaces of the Dominion, and small in individual size since they were highly unlikely to encounter any worthy enemies.
Contrast that with Starfleet, which had a medium number of medium-to-large ships. Since the Federation was a democracy, Starfleet wasn't tasked with being an occupation force, and didn't need to have a ship for every sector of its space (note how often the Enterprise-D had to deal with problems alone because "the nearest Federation star ship was X days away"). And since Starfleet wasn't purely a military organization, its ships had to be larger to accommodate nonmilitary functions and crew.
The different roles led to different fleet doctrines.
long live the Dominion we sevice the Founders
King Peppy Even the Vorta, serves the Founders.
Can there be a Tactical Doctrine Analysis on the Cylons and the Colonies of Kobol from the reimagined 2000's series and Battlestar Galactica Deadlock?
I wanna know how and why Cylons feel the need to use that weird 2 layered 'Y' shape, not to mention their obsession Missiles.
The double Y shape is easy to explain. Since Cylons prefer missiles over gun batteries, they need to maximize the amount of surface area for launchers. Furthermore, those launchers are best roughly pointed at the target so that the missiles don't have to waste time and energy to change their flight path. In short, having multiple long pylons protruding out from the main hull makes for a lot of effective missile launchers. As for why it is a Y shape instead of say an X or star shape, I can't tell you.
As for the missile obsession, it makes sense as missiles give tactical flexibility to the Cylons. Not only do they have greater range than guns and can track, the missiles can also achieve a much greater volume of fire in the short term. Moreoever, since the Cylons are the technologically more advanced faction, they don't worry about missile jamming the way that the Colonials do; this also explains why the Colonial warships are gun-heavy.
Then the Hurq nearly curbstomps the Dominion in the STO canon.
There were 3 survivors from the valiant.The chick from Tyco city on the Moon also survived along with Jake & Nog
Them scarab scouts have a weakness: aft lower dorsal section isn't heavily shielded. They also fight in a group of 3 ships.
Side note for the fun of it,
The initial Dominion reinforcements that Sisko begs the prophets to help with were pushed forward in time. They appear 40 years after voyager's return and managed to take over Deep Space 9.
You find this out in Star Trek online in one of the primary campaign arcs. You actually have to go get the female shape-shifter out of prison and have her talk to the leader of the Jem Hadar to try to get them to surrender, and then of course just end up killing them all when they refuse....
How do Star Trek weapons compare to that of weapons used by the Forerunners such as the Forerunner Hardlight and Slipspace weaponry in destructive capacity?
Captain Benjamin Sisko never BEGGED anybody for anything. Other than that, good review.
I don't think you talk about the biggest weakness of the Dominion, ketracel-white. For while it was great to keep the Jem'haddar under control, it meant that the Dominion can only keep a certain number active in one given moment. If they produce more troops then they can regularly supply, than they are more likely to run out. Which not only starve the Jem'haddar but cause them to go insane to the point they start killing their allies. Meaning, that destroying any ketracel-white facility meant the Dominion can only wield a fraction of their forces within any given campaign. Which means to counter Dominion war tactics is to go after supply lines and facilities producing ketracel-white, and let the Dominion stretch themselves to thin to properly control said territory.
Resurrected Starships Great job. Can you please do a Tactical Fleet Doctrine Analysis on the mysterious and xenophobic arachnid like Tholians next?
Please do a video on Zentradi from SDF Macross. You could colab with Lore Reloaded.
I honestly don't thing the lack of a 'cruiser' class in the Dominion fleet was an issue. I've been tinkering around with military doctrine stuff for a project I've been working on and several of the faction don't have true cruisers. They have large gunship and small frigate platforms, and then go straight up to battleships and dreadnoughts. But few, or even no cruisers. I also have a faction that has gunships, but skips corvettes, frigates, and everything else under 'heavy' cruiser designations. Though, it really does depend on individual faction doctrine, and ship desgisn within a fleet. I seem to find that lower technology factions should field huge numbers of cruisers, while more advanced technology factions should use groups of gunships acting as cruisers, with actual battleships (and bigger) being their heavies.
Kinda resembles our real world naval progression where cruisers gradually get phased out, or just completely outclassed, by battleships, battlecruisers, aircraft carriers, and then just destroyers and frigates being more and more effective and efficient than cruisers could be.
Now, there are some great cruisers, the Des Moines, Clevelands, Hippers, and others. But in terms of space-naval combat, I don't really see those sort of cruiser analogues being all that great. Specialized cruisers (such as Missile Cruisers, or Planetary Assault Cruisers) still have rolls. But a swarm of cheaper, efficient smaller ships seems better - and a single much stronger battlecruiser, battleship, or dreadnought, also seems better.
I always wondered why didn`t Dominion acquire cloaking technology since they had their spies everywhere
Maybe it wasn't compatible with their tech?
@@tbeller80 yeah, maybe, but they could come out with smth if the wanted to. I believe it just wasn`t good for the plot.
@@descendinguniverse no argument there. They were already portrayed as over powered before the war started.
@@tbeller80 agree
@travisbe916 Also I`ve just thought about Borgs not using cloaks, given the fact they adapt all useful technology. So I guess not every species needs it for some reasons. With cloaking device Dominion might be less horrendous in a way 🙂
There are a few more types of dominion ship but its not always clear if its a naming error like dominion battleships and gem hadar battleships etc. There were the very large battleships being built by the dominion but were not complete by the end of the war so they were used as battle monitors in orbit of cardassia
speaking of swarms the interdimensional invaders from Andromeda had similar methods only scaled to the extreme
Wow, the Dominion was vicious... 😳😩
It wasn't ONLY the Prophets intervention, though that was pretty decisive. The other considerations were:
The size of the Federation and Klingon Empires (literally their volumes of space)
The raw tenacity of both of the aforementioned powers
Klingon willingness to die in battle
Sisko going lawful evil on a Romulan senator
Gul Dukat losing his damn mind
Truthfully, wars of conquest have been decided on less (Dunkirk anyone?)
If I recall correctly Dominion reinforcements could not exit the wormhole because of self replicating mines. Which seems a bit strange why they couldn't just mass ram all the mines with a bunch of first wave ships destroying the minefields ability to reproduce if all the mines exploded at the same time, then all the other Dominion Ships could pour through. I suppose the wormhole opening might have been to narrow to use such said tactic?
I know that Attack Wing puts Cardassian Breen and the Dominion together but I think Cardassian tactics should be examined separately.
Well done!
The Dominion ships look really cool I have models of all of them & more than a 100 more model Starships
I don't think the Dominion was the more technologically advanced. Generally, outside of their unique polaron beam weapons, and genetic technology being vastly superior, was inferior to the main Alpha Quadrant. Their ships were slower then the Federation, Romulan, and Klingons at wrap and even some of the smaller warships were faster then Dominion ships at impulse. Federation ship's shields were more powerful and became an issue to the Dominion when the Federation Alliance adapted their technology to counter polaron beam weapons and introduce Ablative Armor. And when you look at equal weight classes, generally the Federation Alliance ships destroy the Dominion counterpoint in one on one combat. To the point, I think it was stated the Dominion had to introduce the Battleship to counter heavier Federation, Romulan, and Klingon ships supported by large war fleets to counter Dominion swarm tactics. I think the most telling point was the fact the Dominion could only win battles with at least two to one or three to one odds to the alliance counterparts, and even then they began losing more often than not when Starfleet and the Klingons began replacing their aging warships for the more advance and powerful ones near the end of the war. While the Romulans introduce smaller starships to support the D'Dredix according to Beta Cannon.
Plus, you did not talk about the biggest weakness of the Dominion, ketracel-white. For while it was great to keep the Jem'haddar under control, it meant that the Dominion can only keep a certain number active in one given moment. If they produce more troops then they can regularly supply, than they are more likely run out. Which not only starve the Jem'haddar but cause them to go insane to the point they start killing their allies. Meaning, that destroying any ketracel-white facility meant the Dominion can only wield a fraction of their forces within any given campaign. Which means to counter Dominion war tactics is to go after supply lines and facilities producing ketracel-white, and let the Dominion stretch themselves to thin to properly control said territory.
USS Odyssey held up quite well for having no shields. It was making it's withdrawal under impulse and it was only a kamikaze attack that destroyed her.
The Dominion simply caught the Alfa Quadrants powers by surprise. By the time it ended, the Federation was capable of replicating vast numbers of Defiant class ships with photonic crews. The could easily have matched the Dominion at their won game.
Not true at all. The dominion were completely cut off from all their resources, and had to build whole new fleets, grow all new soldiers, and do so without any of their existing ships yards or materials, and they still almost won the war. If you believe the AnB powers stood a chance against a full power dominion, you’re highly delusional.
I did some work for a story and notice something alone the Dominion outproduce the Federation in the Alpha only by 12 times of course one overlook thing about Dominion vessels because basics means set for mass production
You pretty much got it. Quantity (and the logistics to keep the military replenished) has often won wars. The Dominion added technological superiority to it, and they would've crushed the Alpha quadrant.
The dominion had incredibly skilled and efficient warriors that were incredibly expendable and easily replaced lead by genetically grown functionally immortal tactical and logistical genius’s utilizing easily mass produced and expendable ships with highly advanced weapons technology, while also utilizing extremely power warships to fill the gaps in their fleets. The dominion war machine was brutal, and among the most efficient in the entire franchise.
@@hazardous8301 Don't forget fanatically loyal. With very few exceptions the Jem Hadar will do absolutely anything the Founders order, including suicide.
The Dominion should have become like the Japanese, use Kamikaze tactics to reduce the fed, Romulan and Klingon fleet.
If you only need about 1 or 2 to destroy a Galaxy.... then that is peanuts.
I also wondered why no Changeling stole the devie that protected them from the polaron beams that could penetrate the shields...
Really Kamikaze Tactics are nothing new. It isn't strictly Japanese. Just the Japanese were coined with it. Because of the word used.
This go back to the age of just bashing people with rocks. It is all about doing enough damage to the enemy without caring about the sacrifices.
Germans did it as well. German Pilots trying to stop Ally Bombers would literally crash their planes into them. Even at some point. I bet you some lost cause Germans would rig themselves up as Suicide Bombers and blow themselves up to kill as many Russians (as Germans really hate Russians by that point in the war).
Russians were no stranger into using such tactics. Though they would use more Swarm Tactics. It isn't so much of a Kamikaze run but when you see a wave of humanity charging in to a point. Just losing men left and right. Not stopping. Killing a German or two per ten lost. And just...well Zerg the position.
As I see it. The Dominion used all the tactics in the book. Sabotage, Check. Spreading false information and intelligence, Check. Causing a war between two facts before pouncing, Check. Quickly gain a foothold, Check. And so on and so forth. They did it all. Even losing tactics.
@@Qardo whatever... I don't care about linguistic wordgames.... But what the Japanese mean by Kamikaze, is very close to what the Jem'hadar does and that is the only meaning I want to apply to the Jem'hadar
Also we see they aren't scared to do kamikaze runs on ships either which was a huge bonus to their tactics and something the Federation and her Allies couldn't defend against.
Actually three survived the destruction of the Valiant: a Red Squad member, J as ke Sisko and Nog...
I just hope that starfleet made some very serious adjustments with their battle doctrine against aggressive species such as the dominion
It takes a Jem Ha Dar 3 days to reach maturity. And as others have pointed out the Valiant had 3 survivors: Jake Sisko, Nog and Cadet Collins.
A Jem'Hadar can reach adulthood in 3 days and come out swinging, but he still probably required infantry and naval training to be part of an effective team.
@@tbeller80 I'm sure they did require some what of training but if you've seen what the dominion has done with genetic engineering, it would not surprise me if a large sum of that training was already apart of them
The Founders are wise in all things
0:21 When i first saw this, i assume he talked about the hur'q
I always thought the lost Dominion fleet would make for a great movie. What if the Prophets didn’t destroy the fleet and simply expelled them from the worm hole? They would have been separated from the Founders with their last orders being to go to the Alpha quadrant to continue the war. Thus this huge fleet would be making its way to the alpha quadrant for years maybe decades until they showed up.
Sisko did not beg... He demanded they intervene.
The Founders saw their ships and troops as expendable- so suicide attacks and fighting to the very last ship were standard fleet doctrine.
Imo the main problems with the main Dominion fleet are a lack of midsized ships. Also I think only having three ship classes is at least as much a weakness as it is a strength at best. It means the enemy only has to analyze three classes for exploitable flaws which would be much easier then analyzing a more varied fleet.
And while the Dominion had some tech advantages I think the biggest one was the early capability of their weapons to penetrate Alpha Quadrant shields, which was negated by the time the war started, or at the latest the start of the war plus the time it took DS9's shield modifications to spread through the Alliance fleets.
We actually have a real world example of how that would go in a fight, and the answer is the smaller and more varied force loses.
The US Navy during WW2 is pretty much the quintessential example of how such a war would play out. While the Japanese force that the Americans faced at the beginning of the war was objectively the more experienced and capable force, the US focused on a small number of more generalist ship types that could be produced and deployed at a rapid pace. Even counting combat losses, the US could count on 7,000 ships of different types in 1945 compared to the "just" 800 that they had in 1941.
The US navy had far more then three types of combat vessels during the war with multiple classes of most or all types.
@@roguerifter9724 Yes and no.
Before the war, the US had a large number of varied classes in service within their respective roles. During the war, while these older classes did see service (as why wouldn't you use what you have), the US Navy standardised on a small number of generalist ships to pump out in massive numbers.
Take the Fletcher/Allen/Gearing classes as a fine example. Before the war the US had a large number of specialist destroyer types in service. In 1939 they standardised on one basic frame which was later extended out to give specialist capabilities to a ship that was easy to produce and good at a wide variety of tasks.
The Brooklyn/Cleveland/Fargo class of light cruisers, the most numerous ever built, are the exact same story. Take one basic frame that can be built in large numbers, and you can tack on what you need for specialist missions in sub-classes.
In the world of Star Trek, which is what we're inevitably talking about, the Dominion fleet setup makes perfect sense. Space is unimaginably massive, so the more ships you can put into that space means the more overall damage you can do to an enemy. Each individual ship is going to be weaker than a competing foe, however you can pump out a ridiculous number of ships that give you a signifcian strategic maneuverability advantage over your opponent. Take the engagement with the USS Centaur as a prime example. A lone Starfleet ship on patrol engages a lone "enemy" bug ship and is absolutely able to hold its own. Then out of nowhere, three new bug ships appear on an intercept course. That is why a fleet based on small ships in massive numbers makes sense.
It doesn't negate the point I brought up though. Think about what happened with the Breen over Cardassia. The Defiant crew was able to locate a flaw in thier design then spread the word to the fleet. If a navy only has three combat ship classes then it has fewer designs to analyze for weak points, speeding the search for them. Also any flaws discovered impact more of the fleet.
If a navy uses three or four classes of destroyer or alight cruiser and an exploitable flaw is found in one of those classes then it is less devastating then if they only use one class for that role. Unless the particular flaw effects all of the designs used for that role of course.
Also the US navy had far more then three types of combat ship. From what we see of the Jem'Hadar fleet it has no ships in the size bracket between roughly the size of the Obreth class and roughly the size of the Galaxy class. It would be like if the World War II US navy had Destroyer Escorts then the next smallest class of warships were heavy cruisers.
@@roguerifter9724 That is effectively how the US Navy built itself during WW2 though. There was a focus primarily on Frigate, Destroyer, Light Cruiser and Carrier production during the war with Heavy Cruisers, Battleships and Battlecruisers fading into the background. While those ships were still used (a ship that you have is better than no ship), the smaller and lighter escorts supporting a capital ship much larger and more powerful than its small escorts is effectively how the US Navy was built during the war and how every navy with a capital ship operates today. It's important to note that while the US did indeed operate multiple ship classes within those types during the war most were legacy vessels already in service before the war. During, the US focused mostly on just one class within those types (Fletcher DD at 175 built, Cleveland CL at 27, Essex CV at 24, Casablanca CVE at 50 etc) with a few sub classes to fill the gaps.
To your point about weak spots, this seems to be something that's only really mentioned in dialogue and in the Dominion War arc it isn't really seen on screen to any meaningful degree. If that were a genuine concern in the Star Trek universe, then ship classes that were pushing 100 years of age would have been retired long ago. Instead we see active moves not only to keep them in service, but to upgrade them with even newer weapons and technology to keep them relevant.
I also feel that Star Trek ships are far more modular than we give them credit for. Take the Galaxy Class as a prime example. In the TNG and into the DS9 era, so much as sneezing at the secondary hull was enough to cause a warp core breech. A pretty obvious weak spot. Fast forward to Chin'toka and we see a Galaxy getting absolutely hammered in the secondary hull and she seems to just keep on flying without any major issues. So I think that, outside of the obvious structural weak areas, actual weak spots are not as fixed as say on a modern cruiser.
4:21 Eventually, the Prophets had to release them, resulting in a sudden attack on the station c. 2410.
This is probably the closest of what would happen if the eve online universe invaded the star trek universe.
Clones and swarm tactics supported by strong logistics.
Even then,dominion crewed ships would be slow compared to capsuleer operated ships.
Either way,you better have some sort of devine intervention in hopes to win.
yes but their weapons (unless they are Jovians,Drifters or Triglavians) are useless in the STU
@@Tonydjjokerit You forget,capsuleers can operate Triglavian vessels now and with cheap ships and clones,have no problems having porn level festivals of ramming the enemy into submission so the STU is still pretty fracked,pardon the pun.
@@WarbirdPhoenix They have to get close enough to do it,by then their ships are toast.With Trig and /or Capsuleer piloted Drifter ships ...maybe as both can hit at distance........but Species 8472 and Q???? NOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
@@Tonydjjokerit Just based on Dominion and New Eden brawling,after a defeated capsuleer wakes up in the next clone annoyed as all hell,they'll just fit the next ship with micro jump drives to get a book mark close in and have a tanked cyno buddy standing by for a fleet drop.
Speaking of fleet drops,would be fun seeing a vid about Eve-Online capsuleer fleets vs ST Dominion fleets vs Star Wars clone fleets actually.
The ultimate clone Wars,😆
Now with 8472,sure they'd be justified as unfettered capsuleer greed can devastate where ever they fly and Q would just be simply amused or won't give a frack.
@@WarbirdPhoenix CAPITAL IDEA!!RESPECT for that Warbird Phoenix.It would be very interesting how Darth Vader and Palpatine will cope with Q's sarcastic put downs and insults LOL!!!! The Capsuleers will be weeping in their beers when Q hurls his Sardonic wit,Sarcastic put downs and original insults at them DOUBLE LOL!!!!!!!
Some think the Dominion got off too lightly considering what they did to Cardassia and the Alpha Quadrant but they forget, fortune favours the bold.
But what would Thrawn say? I feel like the Dominion is the closest in military philosophy with the Empire - large ships for intimidation combined with an emphasis on overwhelming force and expendable cannon-fodder.
The issues their though, is the Jem’Hadar may have been expendable, but they were also elite soldiers genetically grown and were the perfect warriors. The dominion also didn’t have a complicated political scene, with people constantly trying to undermine their peers in a attempt to get ahead and climb the ladder. The dominion were a considerably more efficient military machine then the empire. Nearly winning a war in which they had to fight with zero of their existing resources. While the empire lost to a small rebellion whose military might was mostly made up of repurposed civilian vessels and equipment.
Unbeatable.
Are the ships they call fighters really more a destroyer or a frigate?
jem'hadar attack ships were certainly effective. and one suspects that they and the battle-cruiser are longstanding dominion designs. i think that the battleship was designed in the alpha quadrant specifically to match the Romulan D'deridex which was otherwise without equal. the romulans were fortunate that the dominion likely never produced them in significant numbers. but ships like the Defiant and Neorexan proved ideal for countering the Jem'hadar fighters.
Neorexan? you mean the Valdore clas?
@@CesarinPillinGaming yes thats just how i've always known it.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I still wonder why this class has 3 names. The Neorexan, the Valdore and the Mogai
@@CesarinPillinGaming its a mystery fandom's gonna fandom.
The clones are ready in days.. not months...
I don't think the Dominion was more advanced, just different. Plus they had excellent intel the Alpha quadrant powers had no hope in replicating. .Also there was at least 3 survivors. The engineer, Jake and Nog.
How about gundam? haha some analysis in the one year war XP
I think any doctrine that espouses "we have lots of ships and lives are cheep" is less of a doctrine and more of a philosophy lol
Starfleet: we can muster five 1000-man capitol ships in a week.
Dominion: we can muster 200 20-man ships in a week.
I don't really know how long it took the Dominion to assemble their ambush of the Obsidian Order fleet, but I can't imagine it took long. They sent 250 ships to Cardassia in a month when Dukat joined them.
How about the Battle tactics of the Borg,Species 8472 and/or the Krenim? These races would crush the Dominion
Combined sure, but individually no. You severely underestimate the dominion just because they lost the war. The dominion nearly won against the United powers of the Federation, Klingon empire, and the Romulan Star empire, and they did so without access to any of their existing resources. They literally had to rebuild their entire military infrastructure from scratch, while the war was already in full swing. Mean while the full power of the dominion has been around for thousands of years, and has full and uncontested control over a entire quadrant and it’s resources. 8472 was powerful, the the main reason they shit on the borg so hard was because the borg couldn’t adapt to their tech, or assimilate them. Krenim were powerful, but I wouldn’t compare them to borg or dominion. Their most impressive feats were that they were just good at fucking with time until they got their desired outcome. As for the borg themselves. Vorta have suicide implants, making them impossible to assimilate. Jem’Hadar generally don’t have information on the over all inner workings of the dominion, making the info the borg could get from assimilating them of little consequence, on top of the fact that dominion soldiers would sooner make suicide runs on borg vessels then loose the battle, leaving little to assimilate in the first place. As for the founders themselves, even if the borg could find them, it’s unlikely they could assimilate them, leaving them in a similar situation they were left in with the Undine(species 8472)not to mention the borg have been fought off(albeit with extreme difficulty)but the federation Klingons and romulans United forces on more then one occasion, and the dominion as previous stated nearly beat them with only a tiny fraction of their and resources. The dominion have the tech, resources, and numbers to fight off the borg, with their races and war doctrine being nearly perfect for doing so. Not saying the dominion would for sure beat these races, but they are definitely on their level, and wouldn’t be Crushed by any of them without a serious fight. People often underestimate the dominion just because they lost the war, as if their wasn’t any unique circumstances they literally destroyed their odds of winning. From the founders being infects with a fatal virus, and being betrayed by their allies, to literally being completely cut off from all their resources, and having to completely rebuild their entire military from scratch, without access to any of their existing materials and infrastructures.
The best villains in Star Trek. Shame they were nerfed towards the end of the series. There was so much to explore in a new series in the Gamma quadrant.
So to counter the Dominion you need to attack their foundries and hatcheries. Keep up the pressure and not let them gain momentum.
There was 3 survivors on the valiant :)
The irony of whole Dominion war is even they won against federation and its allies, they would have ultimately lost the very core of existence with Founder being killed off by Section 31 vuris and neither the Founder or Dominion would have known who done it.
I always wonder if the dominion could defeat a Borg invasion.
Lore Reloaded and the Anti-Trekker have both done videos on that scenario, both are very good
It’s certainly possible. The dominion nearly defeated all the major powers of the AnB with only a tiny fraction of their power. Only loosing because they not only had to build all new fleets and even grow all new soldiers from scratch due to the prophets blocking access to any of their existing resources, but on top of that, they were also betrayed by their allies, and their leaders were infected with a deadly virus. The dominion have the number, the tech, and the resources, and fire power to beat the borg. On top of that the vorta have suicide implants, making them impossible to assimilate. The Jem’Hadar generally don’t posses useful information on the wide working of the dominion, making the info the borg could get from them through assimilation of little use. Plus they’d also sooner make suicide runs of the borg ships then lose the battle, leaving little for the borg to assimilate in the first place, and even if the borg could find the founders home world, it’s also highly unlikely the borg could even assimilate them.
Do the cardassian please.
I recognize these tactics, they're not Dominion, this is classic CFC 🤗
I do believe The Mittani is actually a changeling, there's no other explanation for his success as a spymaster.
The Federation wouldn't know what to do if they had to fight the Goons 😄
The Battleships and Cruisers are the Queens and Kings.
The Attack ships are the soldiers.
Could a dominion battleship beat a imperial 2 star destroyer?