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I'm impressed by the amount of growth we see in such a short span of time. When he said, "I can be better than Cazador," he meant it!

Even when the two of them were just friends. It's like the player becomes Astarion's favorite person no matter what if they have a good relationship with him. "My first and oldest friend." That just makes me more irritated that the player dialogue shifts so hard into hatred after they themselves helped him complete the ritual.

​@@britt6184I agree. You go from plotting with him the entire game to help him ascend into suddenly pearl clutching and acting like he's such a horrible person. You can say some incredibly cruel things to him as the PC. Especially right after ascension. It feels like a bad self-insert from one of the writers. We just fought a hard as hell fight and won. I want to celebrate with him. Not lecture.

I hate so many of the dialogue options for Player in game

I can see that! There are three similar sentences. I attempted to account for those, too, that's why I included the "good" and the "bad" in the video. How do you account for everything else in your AA playthroughs? I would love to hear a counter-perspective based on in-game evidence about the following: We know how it looks in the game when spawn are controlled, but that never happens to the player? Or the fact that the player doesn't burn in the sun? Or the fact that AA can tell the player what he wants, then the player can ignore it, and nothing changes? Or the fact that the player still has their reflection in the mirror? How AA shows empathy to the player after Haarlep? How AA verbally says he will protect the player from Araj? How AA says he will protect the player against Jaheira and Minsc [even though he's not a fan of the player submitting to Bhaal], and then there's a cut scene where he backs you? Is all of that like Cazador, too?

Especially a Dark Urge character. Their background is literally an amnesiac necrophiliac serial killer.

@@evelynjolly9375 7k is rookie numbers for my drow Durge. Gotta get those numbers up. Throw in an extra 3k, make it an even 10!

This is just objectively not even true lol. "How did it feel killing Cazador?" "Oh, it felt wonderful! The blood, the screaming, just thinking of it makes me smile!" He also says it was a pity he didn't keep Cazador's skull. His anger is directly about the comparison so immediately after the fight. Tav and others can mention Cazador without being a dick about it and he's happy and fine. He isn't "regressing" to an earlier period in his childhood wtf? Lol. Getting mad at being compared to his torturer is normal. How are we not acting like his upset isn't normal and valid here? If we're so into armchair psychology that we read on the Internet once. "He's regressing". Lol. Lmao, even. What even is this take? If Astarion started using baby talk to feel safe around Tav I'd burn the whole game 😂

Astarion addresses that entire dialogue to the companion and the role that they played in his ascension. How could it be about anything else? From the conversation: Don't YOU ever compare me to him. How dare YOU stand there and judge Me. As if you know the first thing. YOUR hands are as bloody as mine, darling. Why would YOU go along with any of this, just to pretend that you're innocent now? If he's only mad about hearing Cazador's name, then how would you explain the rest of what he says?

Well, it's not about "making someone believe something," right? If that was the case, there would be an insight check. To me, it's more about, is there enough in-game evidence to support the interpretation. So, there's context to suggest AA has given his blood to the player. For example, when comparing Spawn Durge to Spawn Astarion: 1. The player doesn't catch on fire in the sun, after the tadpoles are destroyed, the player still has their reflection in the mirror, the player doesn't wake up in a grave the next morning [the way Astarion describes being turned]. That, combined with him saying he gave the player his blood, can be interpreted as yes, he did. [In addition, the devnotes do not say he's lying to the player when he says this.] If you're asking if there's an animated scene of him giving the player his blood, no there's not. Which is probably for the best, right? Because it supports the player's ability to create their own stories about what happens. If you don't like this interpretation, that's valid!! As long as we're all having a good time, that's really the goal.

Oh, I 100% agree that the player is to blame as well when it comes to the 7K sacrifice. I don't know if I can agree that a vampire wanting to never endure vampiric hunger or wanting to walk in the sunlight is "irrational", though. Those seem like very rational wants, to me, at least. Well, he asks for help, then there's a persuasion check for the player to try to change his mind about what he wants - which is help to ascend. If you fail that persuasion check, you find out exactly how he feels about the player not helping him - romanced or not. So, to some extent, in order to ensure you can manipulate him, you have to play the game a very specific way - e.g., saving up inspiration points, have a high charisma character, etc. There's definitely a bit of meta-gaming involved. As the player, I have fun when I'm on the same page as my companions. The companions that I don't like or if I don't like their goals, they stay home with Withers. Personally, I don't feel comfortable RP'ing as someone telling another adult what is best for their own lives or trying to manipulate them out of what they want for themselves. It feels odd to hear Astarion say he wants this the entire game and ignore it, assuming that my character knows best for him. So, I don't RP that way. A vampire who can walk in the sun and has none of the weaknesses of standard vampires is close to being a god. That's a downside for Baldur's Gate, but it's a huge win for Astarion. And, if I have to choose between 7K pixel souls with no narrative or gameplay value or helping my in-game LI become everything they've ever wanted, well, it's a super easy decision for me.

@@RPG_NoMeDiga A vampire wanting to walk in the sun and not worry about hunger is very rational. I am saying that since he was confronted with his tormentor, there's a shit ton of blood everywhere, and he wants Cazedor to suffer he's not thinking rationally or the consequences of what he believes he wants right now. I personally don't see the persuasion checks with key story moments as telling another adult how to live their life or manipulate them. I see it more has you helping them find another way and restore a bit of hope. I do know there is a wisdom check you can do with romanced Ascended Astarion to see what he really thinks of you. Idk when or how though. I also can't find a video showcasing it. Plus if if you look up what happens after you let Astarion Ascend google shares that all the positive character development he can have goes out the window and he is right back to how he was when you first encountered him on the beach.

​@@Wulvarr I can see what you're saying. Not all player dialogue options lead to the same response from Astarion. So, in my playthroughs as Durge, he has said he wants to ascend in every conversation about it before Cazador. When it comes up at the Cazador fight, it's consistent to what we've already discussed and doesn't come across as irrational at all. well, he says what he wants and then the player can say, "I want you to live a life you can be proud of". That statement is about the player, not Astarion, right? My take is he's vulnerable and trusts the player, and the player can use that to manipulate him. What's a persuasion check if not manipulation? I don't think Yurgir in Act 2 wants to kill himself, but with high enough charisma, I can make him think he does. Of course, it's fine to make this call as the player! It's just not a call I enjoy making. Oh yeah, that wisdom check, that statement is about how he views himself. It's basically saying "you can do better than me." Which, makes sense to me, Astarion has low self-esteem. If you pick him over another companion in Act 2 he's surprised and fumbles through the conversation. If you break up with him in Act 3, he says he was counting down the time or he can't blame you. Re: character development - that really varies based on the player. I'm not sure about his friend path, but romanced Astarion's character development, imo, is that he grows to also care about the player [where he was super selfish initially]. Vampires are not known for sharing power, but Astarion immediately shares his power with a romanced player [Lae'Zel even comments on it]. And again, based on dialogue options, he makes good on what he has said to the player, e.g., Act 2: "I want to protect you, too" - AA in Act 3 with Araj [I'll protect you.] He says you're a team, and then if you accept Bhaal and the companions attack you, he has your back. I mean, I like Astarion in Act 1, I wouldn't spend hours playing with him in my party if I didn't enjoy his personality. Whereas with UA, it makes me a little sad to see how he has lost quite a bit of his passion for life. I think narratively it makes a ton of sense, but it's also heartbreaking to me, to know that my character took something away from him.

@@RPG_NoMeDiga Seems we will have to agree to disagree than. Glad we could have a respectful discussion though. They aren't common on the internet so I appreciate it

@@Wulvarr same, take care!

Even if you think the game tells you this...Tav has nothing to base this on by this point. There is a reason perhaps that he can also tell you "You think you can sit there and tell me how to feel?" Much like when Tav tells him they miss the "Sweet uncertain boy" (This is Tav....trying to make Astarion think something that isnt true) the Cazador comparisons whenever Tav uses them are incorrect. Did anyone never stop to think that the character is the one with agency, and how Tav speaks to and treats their romance partner is where the options to be manipulative are?

@@SquirrellySkeptical the player character is seeing everything the player is seeing. You're both seeing Astarion's lust for power, his contempt for his victims, his refusal to commit to making Tav a full vampire. Like I said, I get why he's mad at being compared to his abuser, but Tav has got to see how she's helping Astarion become like Cazador.

@MJ-mp1fx they are. Yes. So when does the player see him acting like cazador between the ritual chamber and the camp dialogue starting? When between the confession scene and camp dialogue starting does the player see evidence astarion doesn't love them? Or are they just saying things that aren't true

@@MJ-mp1fx Astarion's lust for power and contempt for his victims (or anyone he perceives as weak) is ASTARION lol. That is who he is from act 1. It does not magically appear once he ascends. And it stays even if he refuses the ritual. No "true vampire" wants to share their power, he says that in act one. That's not Cazador specific, and Astarion ascended offers to share everything he has with his Tav. Even his blood. He gives Tav the ability to walk in the sun. Something even true vampires like Cazador wanted. None of these things relate him to Cazador lmao.

@@SquirrellySkeptical I think Ascended Astarion does love Tav, and my understanding is Larian's take is that AA lives Tav obsessively. Post Ascension, AA expresses plans to subjugate the world, and he refuses to commit to make Tav a full vampire. Add that to all of the context clues you get beforehand from Astarion's descriptions of his life as a spawn, what vampire lords are like, and everything you find in Cazador's mansion and crypt about the tortured spawn to vampire lord pipeline.

Yeah, the idea that you can talk to people however you want and they should just roll over and take it, is certainly, a take. I love that he stands up for himself here. And, unlike the dialogue options for the player that are based on assumptions and gaslighting, his comments are all facts.

Yeah, the dialogue options for the player after Astarion ascends represents some of the weakest writing in the game, imo. It completely ignores the Act 2 lock-in by allowing the player to proposition him. Alternatively, you can make a demand to become a vampire - a conversation that maybe should've come up at least once in passing. Or, you can start several arguments based on topics that have literally never been addressed or, of course, compare him to his abuser as someone who has known him for a few weeks. It feels as though I've missed several conversations going through the dialogue options.

Exactly. The player has the choice to be so needlessly cruel to him. I would react the same way if I had gone through even a fraction of what Astarion experienced.

Exactly this. Hopefully this next patch will fix that whole conversation, since there is no option in that part of the dialogue to pick anything remotely like what a supportive PC would pick. My Durge just wanted to stick to 'I wanted what's best for you'. That's it, no lesson, no extortion, literally just, "you said you needed this, that's enough for me". Astarion is Durge's rider or die, he deserves the same.

If you pass a few checks when interacting with a skull in Cazador's dungeon, the game confirms that ascension changes you. The skull belonged to Cazador's own master when he was a spawn. Astarion becomes his abuser if he ascends just like Cazador did

@@basicbluetrash When did Cazador ascend?

Sure, I can pull something together!

@@RPG_NoMeDiga I'll be looking forward to it ❤️❤️❤️

www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/5452

@@RPG_NoMeDiga thank you!! What dye are you using?? It's gorgeous!

I don't remember the exact dye, but it is from Effe's Consort Dyes [this is the only dye pack that I use]: www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/9094

That quote is not about the three endings, no need to juggle his words.

*whispers* it's a video game. My durge is munching on Dwarf legs because they heal as a free action. Meanwhile, AA is trying to keep morale up by saying "you have the vampire ascendant on your side, how can we lose?"

Also Neil said that AA is REAL Astarion. Without any masks. While spawn Astarion STILL has to play his role.

Completely agree 👍 ❤ AA is evil, but not so bad))

Same, sister... 😂

It really doesn't make much sense as the player literally has the option of making it so their character finds enjoyment in pain. In the scene where Astarion turns the player into a vampire, they can tell him to either be gentle or to make it hurt. The dev notes for that scene state that the pc is enjoying it in both scenarios yet they forced frightened/angry expressions for these new kisses. Spawn Astarion got dragged through the mud too apparently as from what I've seen he only has one new kiss and the angle from which it's shown isn't the best. It feels like the animators for the kisses were biased against Astarion in spite of his popularity as a character.

@@cinder4181 They said they're fixing Tavs faces in patch 7!! 😍 So even Larian agrees it didn't fit

​@@wolficer-66ARE THEY OMG I COULD CRY YESSSS

I love the head canons other people spend a lot of time coming up with. Not my thing to spend hours thinking about, but, its always fun to hear.

Vampires are monsters in D&D. They are described in the monster manual. He is ALWAYS a monster. Astarion is ALWAYS evil-aligned. Astarion is never good-aligned as good-aligned characters do not derive enjoyment from harming people. In fact, epilogue UA is still discussing murder ["as long as you kill the right people"] while AA is "charming dignitaries up and down the sword coast". If you're into RP'ing as a "meat puppet" or "slave", I'm glad you've found a way to connect with the source material that brings you enjoyment. I try not to kink-shame! Happy gaming!

He also shared some of his blood with his consort which normal spawn don't get. Doing so would apparently protect them from the sun the same as Astarion along with potentially granting them other immunities. There isn't enough information about Ascendant vampires to really make a definitive statement about their lives after the game ends that isn't just fan speculation. The pc might not be a true vampire but I don't really mind. Not to be sympathetic to the monster, but Cazador himself was miserable even as a true vampire which is the entire reason he wanted to perform the ritual. If one believes the theory that Astarion made the player his vampire bride/groom then that is actually a better outcome as they would share the benefits of the ritual. Also according to the lore involving vampire brides, they keep their free will from the start and share a telepathic and life bond with their creator. This is potentially dangerous for both the vampire lord and his bride as if one suffers damage/is destroyed the other will be affected. Why would Astarion risk something like that unless he genuinely loved the pc? I never got it for my own character as I made it so she was completely faithful to Astarion the whole game but there is a line from Astarion where if the pc sleeps with a certain incubus he says "Gods. Though I've become untouchable, my precious treasure has been violated still." He then shows sympathy about the pc having their body being used by someone else. This makes me think he actually doesn't want to control his consort if he is even able to. These are just some observations I made about his character after his ascension. If you want to believe he is a completely horrid monster then go right ahead. I'm not denying that he is evil, but I certainly don't think he is as terrible as those with similar opinions as you make him out to be.

@@britt6184 and "And you will drink mine. I cant wait to taste your lips after you have tasted me"

@RPG_NoMeDiga bg3 has to be your introduction to dnd lol alignments are borderline a suggestion there is a LOT of nuance in alignments, an evil character could save the world willingly, for them it would be hell yeah I'll help you save the world you know how many things I will be able to steal along the way? And not to mention the amount of bodies I'll rack AND id we succeeded my name and influence will sky rocket, all the delicious things I couls get away with 😈, that is one of many reasons want another evil character that only helps? Omellum cause every mind flayer is evil, how can tou say he is a bad guy? Evil doesn't mean mustache twirling unfeeling murder goblin, but ascended doesn't have feelings he is completely by the book evil no black and white, is obvious when you break up or offend him in any way, he has 0 reactions he doesn't get sad or mad quite the opposite he says he respect for breakup with him and that he knew you wouldn't fall for it cause you're better than this and he waa just going to weaponize your love, and he says that with a smile, right after he us already saying you could be partners and take over the city, he gives 0 shits he becomes completely self centered pure evil asshole, just exploring all his dialogues make it so obvious already being evil means nothing just means he doesn't help cats out of trees for no reason and he is very ok with killing anything and does it with no regret

His race is high-elf; those are his default ears! The short hair mod: www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1420

@@RPG_NoMeDiga thank you!!!

www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/5317

@@RPG_NoMeDiga thank you so much (⁠ﾉ⁠◕⁠ヮ⁠◕⁠)⁠ﾉ⁠*⁠.⁠✧

www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/9274

It's not the same person? Well, who is it then? Did Petras quickly swap places with him during the ritual? Here's the thing, Astarion, AA or UA, is a vampire. All of the lore that applies to UA also applies to AA. In fact, since an ascended vampire is Larian homebrew, the D&D vampire lore applies moreso to UA than it does to AA. Vampires are possessive. Vampires are obsessed with power. If the player willingly entered into a blood-bond with a vampire, of course you can't "break up"? AA doesn't try to trick you, he is very clear: Do you want to be mine forever? We can be together for eternity. If the player decided to ignore the words that he is using, well, that's not on AA that the player didn't pay attention, is it? Not being able to break the blood bond between creator/maker/sire and creation/spawn/childe is standard vampire lore. There is no equal relationship with Astarion and the player, regardless of the path. With AA, you can never be an ascended vampire or as strong as he is. With UA, the player is mortal and has the freedom to: go into homes without an invitation, walk in the sun, not be chased down by monster hunters, walk into water without taking acid damage, etc., none of these are possible for a vampire spawn. But, to be clear, AA does not, at any point in the game, control anything that the player does. Even as a game mechanic, AA will make suggestions or disagree with the player and then he goes along with whatever the player decides [e.g., becoming a mind flayer, becoming Bhaal's chosen, whatever you decide for the epilogue]. Astarion is not real. Astarion is responding to decisions that you have made, as the player. You don't have to like that, of course! But your HC within your game is your own and is not broadly applicable to anyone else's game. I am sorry that in your playthrough you felt as though you were being objectified by AA though. Luckily there are many other companions available. I hear Karlach is really popular.

@@RPG_NoMeDiga why did you assume I would let Astarion die again by becoming Ascend? I simply took a path to find a cure for him (where in the canon is plenty possibilities to reverse Vampirism). The first and main point is about ascended/vampire lord (what we can assume have the same root) is lack of soul. Something that makes elves immortal due to reincarnation circle and holding memories of their past and actual lives. As ascended he has the same issue as mind flayer - it's something else with the memories of the body. That's why Emperor is not a Balduran but an adult tadpole with Balduran memories. About Vampire lords, they are changed. Its like werewolf in during a full moon but without frenzy. They are not the same as controlled change. We have books in Cazadors Palace that proves that this change is a cycle without control. Its a CURSE. Ofc in the game he does not control tav. He does that AFTER the game. Epilogue shows it clearly, narrator, other companions, everyone. I do not compain that "mechanically" he controls tav but mentally. He says that saying "I love you" is just something we want to hear, not something he wants to say, he wants us to remember he is above us and all sweets ends when we are under his control. I feel sorry for everyone that think that AA truly loves tav and I think they should be careful in their relationships.

@@RPG_NoMeDiga also why would I change companion to romance only bcs there is a path when he is a monster? UA is healthy, full of partnership romance with a path to save him (epilogue even say to us that this half of the year helped him to be happy)

@@Mikami_The_Bard lol you do realize the writer and his VA both say it is still him after he ascends. A man who pulls a knife on you at the beach and enjoys watching slaves die isn't exactly what I'd consider a good guy. He tells a player he likes that they should be dictators together. Astarion was never good aligned. It's also canonly stated by the narrator that Astarion ascended loves Tav. That is a real line. In the game. If you're trying to suggest the ritual turned him into a DnD true vampire, that's objectively not true. Cazador was a true vampire. The ritual was initially his. Why would a true vampire want a ritual that turns him into a true vampire? DnD states spawn and true vampires cannot feel emotion. They feel nothing but hunger. Ascended says he no longer feels hunger immediately after the ritual. He's something new entirely. I always find it funny that people somehow assume that Astarion is now magically healed and incapable of being toxic or abusive if he stays spawn. He doesn't tell the PC he loves them unless they agree to sleep with him first if he doesn't ascend. "I can take a man who pulled a knife on me and make him healed and gentle" isn't a very good "lesson". I highly doubt that's what Larian is trying to do with his character arc. He still enjoys killing in the end. Regardless of the route. His approval system is still identical. He's still him. It's cool if you want to hc otherwise. But what you're saying isn't based in fact.

@@wolficer-66 About the lesson...What happens if it is a vampire, but you don't like vampires and want to make him all better?

You can do AA & resist Durge now, and wait for AA & accept Durge when the new evil endings drop in September!

@@Esiaa AA and resist Durge is my favorite pairing!!! If you like a little wicked, dark love while taking your power back >;) AA and the game itself has some very sweet dialogue for it

@@wolficer-66 It's a good pairing for sure. I'd prefer AA and accept Durge... but Bhaal's stupid ultimatum gets in the way when I've managed to get other new companion endings. Though, seeing the exchange between the two of them when becoming the Absolute is quite satisfying for me. No offense to Minty, but it feels so much more... right with AA.

That was jarring. Change it back right now! 😂

Looks like you didn't understand his story at all, and missed the whole point of why Ascended is his bad ending and the only true freedom he can get is when he doesn't perform the ritual i.e. doesn't doom 7000 souls for enternal torment in the Hell.

@@lizapb Hate to break it to you, the Hells can be a better place then getting stuck in the fugue plane as undead monsters (where the best they can hope for is to broker a deal with a devli or hope a god takes pitty on them, the latter being more unlikely). In fact, we don't know that the souls are even going to be tormented, they may become servents to Mephastopholies ... which is a good time to remind that Astarion as a vampire spawn even commented that a devil having his soul would be better than Cazador having it. Furthermore there are examples in game of those that serve devils and are happy to do so, feeling far better treated then they were under the yoke of fellow mortals. The devils and hells of DnD are not the same as the Hell of our world. To be frank, I don't care what lesson they may have wanted to teach. The evidence and events in the story make it clear to me. AA and UA are both confident and unconfident in different ways. AA has more confidence in his own power and independence. UA has confidence in his value among his mortal friends/allies. One is currently on a high of his new found status, the other is too focused on his relationship. Each has a struggle yet before they will truely heal, and their respective hyperfocuses are likely to dictate the nature of the pending rough patches they will endure on that journey (if he continues on that path).

@@lizapb "It feels so good. Freedom - True Freedom. Finally"

​@@lizapbAscension is his evil ending, not his bad ending lol his journal entry as spawn says that "his fate is sealed" and he's doomed to be a spawn forever. He also says he can't stop thinking about Cazador. While ascended couldn't care less. Having a different opinion than you is not "not understanding the story". People are going to read things differently than you sometimes. I think it's okay to see him gloating and ecstaticly happy as ascended and say that he's free.

​@@SquirrellySkepticalNot to mention in his origin the narrator literally says that after the attention a) his heart is beating again; b) he no longer feels vampire hunger unlike Spawn. Even Jaheira and vampire lore says that vampires feel nothing BUT hunger, however we literally have confirmation that he no longer feels hunger and "the appetites of man" have returned to him. And ppl literally say he is not "completely free" unless he remains a Spawn. Yeah, I would also feel extremely free and lighthearted if I knew that I am forever bound to life of shadows and can easily be killed by a high level cleric/paladin/druid/blood hunter/ranger. True freedom indeed 👌

I'm not sure which one you're asking about, but the short hair on him is this mod: www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1420

@@RPG_NoMeDiga thank you very much!

The patch 6 kisses travesty? What happened? Been a while since I've played.

@@juliagoetia Some people are OK with them but I found Tav's expression heartbreaking. Tav looks humiliated and afraid which is not the AA love story ending I wanted. Larian has just announced that in Patch 7 the expressions have been changed, so I'm pleased about that, though honestly with the mods coming to console I can't wait to try the hugs and kisses mods too.

​@@pennyjane2451 ... Yeah. I hadn't done an ascended Astarion romance before patch 6... don't want to at this point. As things stand, I'd rather knee the bastard... and cry a lot.

It's not a travesty if it was all of the writer's intent to make sure that the cycle of abuse continues if he is allowed to take Cazador's powers from the ritual. He's lying with every breath. Don't be dense.

yes! [there's enough info there to HC it at least ] now, you should ascend him again and enjoy your honeymoon with a side of world domination!!😇