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Certainly, it is frustrating to know that Wesley's father was not actually involved in this. However, for Wesley, he was still his father. The process of overcoming the limits he set with his father, to the point of "killing" him, meant that if something were to happen in their real relationship in the future, Wesley had broken the toxic bond with his father. He would no longer be the son of the abuser, but a completely different being who had evolved on his own and had the capacity to believe in himself and rebel. Although we may not have seen it, this would be a way for Wesley's father to pay for his actions, since Wesley would never allow him to abuse him again.

@@m-sherezade6165 but the episode ended with Wesley trying to call his sperm donor and not even getting a word in cause Daddy dearest was angry for being woken up so early

@@patrickblake123 Yes, it's normal he would still keep in touch with his family, his mother, even with him... And we understand that "killing" his father was not the best way to overcome the problem and this leaves a mark on a human being, It's not the right way... but at the same time (and that's what I want to believe anyway) he gave him the tools to know that he can, we didn't have time to see it...

@@m-sherezade6165 I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the last point. Wesley didn't become the person he has become by this point because of Roger. He became the person we see at this point because he was away from the council and the shadow of his father and given the chance to grow at his own pace and in his own way. The abuse didn't make him strong. He became strong in *spite* of it

@@patrickblake123 Don't worry, maybe because English is not my native language, I still don't explain it well. At no time did I want to say what you understood... So, so as not to get involved in explanations that may not have been fully clarified. Let's summarize it this way: exactly what you say I think the same and I agree.

Hahaha I would have liked to erase that voice!!!

Good question. There was a previous episode in which Wolfram & Hart was attacked by cyborgs that relates to this but they never did explore it further in the series or provide any answers. It’s strange. Maybe the writers lost interest or the plot thread.

The cyborgs and Wesley's dad were made by the good guys and were sent after them because Wolfram & Hart was still evil and it was believed team Angel were corrupt or being corrupted, it's a theme that comes up a few times over season 5 in the slayer episode and with Giles refusing to help with Fred/Illyria that the other good guys of the world have turned their backs on Team Angel due to their affiliation with W&H. I've wondered if it was all meant to be part of a larger storyline that never got the chance to play out properly due to being cancelled.

I could be wrong about this, but I keep thinking Kate was going to be involved with the group that sent the robots

Joss Whedon hates Charisma Carpenter

Totally agree.

Or the nature of the show

Credit to the writers too. The transformation of Wesley from pratfalling, bumbling, pompous Wesley to the pinch hitter in the clutch, making the tough calls, ace in the hole Wesley was gradual enough to be believable. You saw Wesley find his purpose, lean into it, and then answer the call of duty even when it meant to raise a dread hand and and the occasional discarded foul rag.

@@victorpradha9946 Totally, the writers did a HUGE job on this character evolution.

I really enjoyed Wesley's story arc from how he started in Buffy and how he ended up in Angel. Really great acting and writing all around.

ruclips.net/video/4M9ioNlsNqU/видео.html

He was more than likely in shock at what he had done

Yes, Wes and Fred are beautiful... I also like their performance with Illyria but that intensity was also because of the love he had for Fred, he was so precious... and it was so sad. They have always put the watchers as an archaic order and that uses the hunters and the people under their command as tools. Wes's life from what we discovered in the series was horrible, the mistreatment of his father another member of the MOL was trauma and abuse. The Wes we met in Buffy was a self-conscious one despite all his skills and preparation, with much weight over. The Wes de angel and its evolution is a marvel, it was a difficult journey but he found out who he was.The best thing that happened to them is that they were effectively fired.

and married to Willow

What if the woman you love pointed a gun at your father.

Lineage

yeah

-Wesley, all of series 5

Totally!

I totally agree with you!

I just love the premise of that scene. How earlier in the episode Wesley explains that as a Watcher, rule 1 is knowing what's real, because in a world of magic, it's hard to know. He acknowledges the reality that Fred is gone, and won't take a cheap lie as a substitute.... but once he's dying, he just wants some happiness, and takes what he can get. Plus I just love this dialogue: Illyria: This wound is moral. Wesley: ...... aren't we all.

@@KS-xk2so I think Illyria enjoyed that moment as much as he did, maybe more. When she earlier took on the "Burkle persona" when Fred's parents showed up, afterward she expressed her desire to Wesley to "explore it further." Then after Wesley's death when she reached the alley, she says "I'm feeling grief for him. I can't seem to control it." That is what she wanted to explore because as a god she appreciates the beauty and gravity of things, the power of it. Especially in regards to life and death as a (mortal) human.

@@orionxavier6957 One of the many reasons I wish we'd gotten a season 6 is to see what Whedon would've eventually done with Illyria/Fred.

The beauty of that scene, aside from its Shakespearean tone, is that the viewer is mourning the deaths of two characters simultaneously, Wesley and Fred. We know Wesley is dying, and we know that Illyria is NOT Fred. When Illyria undertakes the guise of Fred, an illusion that Wesley knows is not real, she does so with Wesley's consent. She also does so out of some fondness for Wesley, perhaps as a result of absorbing/consuming Fred's consciousness when Illyria usurps Fred's body. In that moment, we are grieving thrice: 1) Wesley's impending demise; 2) Fred's untimely departure; and 3) the unrealized romance between Fred and Wesley. The great irony is that Illyria who was unintentionally responsible for Fred's death is the one who avenges Wesley's killing. Like I said, the scene was absolutely Shakespearean.

Facts!!

An actual modern Byronic hero. We get to watch being formed.

Leopold Fitz would like to have a word

He’s the best character I’ve ever seen. By far my favourite in the buffyverse.

@@lucadeeley8377 especially when you look back at his first appearance in Buffy. He came such a long way.

George Liapes or Mom

Or both

Knox or Nox, however it's spelled. The guy who basically killed Fred.

oh hai mark

Don’t we all?

Debes, debes... ;-)

Si

Oh hi Danny

You are tearing me apart Fred!

Yes, yes that’s the perfect thing to say right now. I laughed very hard. Thank you.

My pleasure !

Nah, i don't think so. Definitely would've thought about it tho.

Is sooo adorable!

I know!!!