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@@Robert2024H Hi great question. To the extent of my knowledge there isn't a way to 'integrate' other people in the 'markedly ' section it RUclips that does it automatically. And unfortunately I think Fairbairn isn't well known enough to be mentioned. Anyway thanks for your efforts and your kind words have great day/night!

@@curieux1789 this is a very fine analysis and quite exhaustive explication very well done!

Thanks very much. I really appreciate that. 🙂 I just feel that Klein's exploration of the pre-oedipal phase opened up a wealth of understandings about relatedness including it's more troubling aspects. Do you think there are possible non-heterosexual sexualities that may not be maladaptions?

@curieux1789 you are welcomed😔😀. I do believe that heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality are inherently healthy adaptations of human sexuality. They are in my opinion all part of the same spectrum

Very interesting perspective but wouldn't Fabien be make use of projective identification to 'switch' position with others and become them like Projective identification change the other by intruding them with a part of non them? I am not sure I am just sharing my thoughts.

From her analysis - I haven't read the novel - Fabien both takes on their personality traits while also retaining some of his own. So, yes they change but so does he. It seems he loses more and more the memory of himself with each victim. However, after forgetting his name - apparently this is crucial for the process - he remembers it and comes to long to return to himself. She believes that the character's ego grows through the process of understanding that what he sought in these other individuals he comes to realise are projected parts of himself. The forgetting is maybe the forgetting of the limited self he began with. The concept of a 'spoiler' mustn't have existed then cos she gives away the ending, lol.

@curieux1789 Yes 'back in those days' authors weren't preoccupied by spoiling a story and I think the public wasn't either. It seems to me that 'spoiling' is recent phenomenon. Which is bizarre for is living in 2024.

@@curieux1789 yes let the ideal go is among the hardest challenges of humanity. In regards to diagnosis it is always an approximation rather than a 'fact'.

@@carloschico8704 thank you :D

@@mahandogrusoz7679 Thank you as well for your support and for sharing your wonderful insights and recommendations!

I am sorry that the presentation was down heartening for you and it is true that academic texts aren't known to be optimistic but I do think there is hope for people experiencing a false self. In regards to the article you can find it in the description of the video ( I have just added it because RUclips disable comments with external links).

@@curieux1789 Yes psychiatry/ psychology has always been stigmatised but it at least it was funded in the 60s, 70s, 80s France created numerous gouvernement and gouvernement funded institutions. But since the mid 90s and the development of a neoliberal ideology budgets have be slashed drastically. I agree that Policy makers have a bias towards 'biological' health and they tend to see mental health as a distant second or even third priority. In regards to the aversion for psychologists in health care I can personally attest that we are met with suspicion or even rejection. In France it is due mainly in my experience to medical doctors that see us as quacks and unqualified to deal with mental illness. But that could be a whole discussion in itself. To be brief yes there is an aversion towards psychologists. And in France we don't have an equivalent of counsellors we only have 3 mental health professionals recognised by the state: psychiatrists, psychologists and psychotherapists and all three need to go to university. Now my understanding is that counselling can be offered by some nurses in a public setting but it is 'surface level' and wouldn't be considered psychotherapy. The lack of a counsellor profession is most likely due to the healthy number of psychologists trained in France ( we train 4 times more psychologists that any other EU country) so there isn't a need/room for a new profession at least not yet.

That's interesting. Why do you think France trains so many more psychologists than the European average? Also, is it possible to practise in France with just a psychologie dregree or is it required to have a masters/doctorate?

@@curieux1789 yes so I can make an educated guess on to why France has more psychologists than other countries in the EU. 1) During the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s French intellectuals like Foucault, Bataille, Blanchard, Merleau Ponty... as well as artists like the surrealists became very interested in psychoanalysis and gave it a sort of aura and prestige. It got a lot of people interested in psychology. It became part of the French intellectual myth. So a lot of people started studying it. 2) The profession of psychologists has a complicated history with gouvernement authorities for a long time psychologists weren't thought of as mental health professionals in France ( yes it is bizarre). So we ( psychologists) were relegated to human science in the same vein as Anthropologists, Sociologists and Philosophers... As such we have never been under a numerus Clausus ie limited number for Professional training unlike medical doctors and nurses. This inscription in human science has give us a lot of latitude to operate. A freedom we are fighting to maintain. Now in terms of education in France to become a psychologist you need a Masters in psychology and a total of 500 hours of internship minimum. With this two conditions you can do a defense of your thesis and if you pass it you are granted the title and the right to practise. And you can go on to do a doctorate ( but you don't need it as is designed for psychologists that want to teach at university or do research).

Yes, that interest in psychoanalysis in France has somewhat reached here. I'm aware of the huge influence of Jacques Lacan. You'll also read here that France gives more weight to public intellectuals and ideas in general. I've heard of Michel Foucault but didn't know he was well disposed to psychoanalysis. Is the numerus clausus in place cos it's expensive to train up certain medical professionals like doctors, surgeons etc? I suspect there's an unnofficial cap over here. When you say fighting, is there a professional body or union (syndicat) that represents psychologists? That's interesting about qualifying as a psychologist over there. I've toyed with the notion of training as a councillor if my own issues were ever resolved - big if. However, the university route here is very expensive as fees have gone up and up - society here has shifted the burden of funding unto students as numbers enroling have dramatically increased. It's now on average more than £9000 per year. You can get finance but it's a debt I'd be reluctant to take on. However, I was recently amazed to find out that uni seems to be much more heavily subsidized in France. I was looking at the psychology degree at a Lyon uni and it costs only €175 per year. That's basically free compared to here. Are there any unis in France that specialise in psychodynamic psychology?

@@curieux1789 In France the Cap on medical doctors is due to the order of doctors in the mid 75's that didn't want to many doctors to not 'devalue' the prestige of thr profession and guarantee financial stability by having a low number of professionals. A move that ended penalising the patient and themselves has they have lost lnfluence in institutions in regards of their absence (because of their low numbers). Which has led other professions to full the vacuum ( like nurse, speech therapists, psychologists...). In regards to psychoanalytic academic institutions you have the universite Paris cité that offers psychoanalytic courses. It appalling that a single year costs 9000£.

Thank you for your kind words and for your unwavering support and engagement!

Thank you for your kind words. So the secret for eternal youth is : eating berries, nuts and dark chocolate and walking 2 to 4 hours a week and drink a sip of the Fountain of youth water. Or perhaps its only the last part that is important! Just kidding 😂. Anyway I don't personally like the denomination of client as it feels more mercantile than patient even if I understand that is about giving Adgency back to the individual. In regards to the couch I was thought that you don't ask a patient to lie down until you have do 'enough' therapy before being able to withstand the 'absence' of the professional. Also people with ontological insecurity might never be able to work with the couch. At a personal level I don't use/ have the couch as I am not a psychoanalyst but a psychologist so I feel that it is one of the main differences between the two professions.

Yes, diet is so important for longevity. I must try the dark chocolate. That's really interesting about not introducing the couch until initial work has been done. One approach I like - this was a few one-2-one sessions before I did the psychoanalytical group - was where the therapist and myself sat side by side, not facing each other. Is an approach like this or the couch, an attempt to help the patient develop awareness of their projections? Is their a risk in face to face work that the patient may struggle to distinguish their phantasy objects from the therapist? I wonder would 'participant' be a more neutral term?

@@curieux1789 I like the word 'participant'. In regards to the side by side I have heard of if but I think it a specifity of the English school of psychoanalysis or maybe a prelude to the groupe dynamics either way I don't know enough to answer with confidence. In regards to session face à face it seems to me this modality is the least likely to destabilise the patient from what I was taught. And I must admit that I have really seen a patient struggle with this specific modality.

Does the destabilising effect mean the patient is thrown off so much by maybe being asked to lie on a couch that they develop such a strong negative transference they're liable to quit the therapy?

@@curieux1789 to the extent of my knowledge these negative effects are more about the asymmetric situation forces a regression to vulnerable state of mind causing early mental defences to remerge from the unconscious causing a fragile ego to become even more vulnerable to the drives and risking identity disorganisation ( this for the more fragile patients).

@@selfpityingslogan thank you for these kind words and for your support they mean a lot to me. In regards to the sirens it is because my practice is located near a hospital so the ambulances are coming in regularly. Anyway thanks again and have a great day!

@@matthewrobinson2172 thank you a lot for your comment! I am happy to hear that my channel has inspired you to go further. I fully agree this work is wonderful but remains difficult and uncertain sometimes but it is always important and meaningful as you pointed out. Anyway thank you for all of your support !!!

@@DreadfulNW thank you immensely for this kind words they mean a lot. I am glad to know that my videos have helped on your path and I wish you the very best as well thanks again!

@@curieux1789 haha they are words like that ! And to have made your day!

I've now read this article and find it a very cogent argument. However, I was wondering about something and your view on it. Is it possible, as a proponent of a particular mode of thought and theoretical outlook, that Fairbairn was himself engaged in the splitting of his experience? Who really were - for him - those opponents of psychoanalysis? Isn't vociferous advocacy of an idea or point of view - to the extent where you would strongly identify hostility to it and write articles expounding this - to, in effect, deny away one's own hatred of the very idea. Wouldn't an acknowledgement of ambivalence enable the person both to own their hostility to, as well as their profound belief in, a theory. In short, could those 'opponents' of psychoanalysis in the article have been projections in Fairbairn's own inner world. Is there a need for an ambivalently loved interest as opposed to one that's idealised?

@curieux1789 so obviously I have never met Fairbairn but it isn't impossible that he was indeed defending his inner good objects ( ie psychoanalysis) through the article from the inner bad objects. But it is also true that psychoanalysis has received a lot of unfair criticism over time and it's true that when you have mentally invested a subject you are prone to defend it. Also psychoanalysis has received good criticism unfortunately it is as frequent as the bad ones in my opinion.

Yes, that's very true. I agree psychoanalysis has received a ton of undue criticism. Maybe because it's getting at something that might be true. However, can we rest easy on the fact that the truth of inner subjectivity will never diminish, no matter what the critics say? Les chiens aboient, la caravane passe. Is it possible - and now this is my fantasy - that Fairbairn had some schizoid tendencies? Like with the withdrawal from his peers in London and an attempt at the rebirth of psychoanalysis. I should add, from the bits I know so far, I think he was really onto something.

@@curieux1789 yes it very well possible that he had some form schizoid features. Guntrip his disciple clearly had schizoid and autistic traits. In regards to the critics they will always be there I suppose but we might not need to always engage them I suppose and I agree Fairbairn and psychoanalyst are onto a fundamental understanding of subjective truth.

Thank you for your encouragements. May I ask what type of examples you would like to see?

Hi, yes this effect is well known in military psychology. Soldiers tend to become mentally ill ones they come home. So it may seem counter-intuitive but the current model of explanation is that during the traumatic event the individual is fully committed to surviving this includes symptoms such as dissociation, splitting, suppression... This defense mechanism take place in order to insure one's own survival. But the problem trigger afterwards in a secure environment as the safety allow for the mind to let go of the defense and psychic life to come back. But the choc of coming home and seen the 'declage' between what they have lived and what life was. The Psychiatrist François Tosquelles used to say that soldiers must be treated on the front lines for mental health rather than back home.

Unfortunately, I'd say the military wouldn't let psychologists near the front line because they'd probably righlty tell the troops that war is organised murder and the best thing they could do for their mental health is 'down weapons' and go home. There was a comedy in the UK that satirised WW1 and there's a moment where a general mentions 'The Grand Plan'. The response was 'is this the plan where we get out of our trenches, walk slowly towards the enemy's machine guns, and we keep doing this until everyone is dead except for Field Marshall Haig, Lady Haig and their pet tortoise Alan?'

@@curieux1789 'the grand plan' to end all wars haha. So in regards to war there are army psychologists and psychiatrists but their aim isn't to heal the trauma of soldiers but to make them 'operational' again to proform their duty. Or at least that what I told/heared as I have never been a army psychologists I cannot confirm this a 100% confirm this.

What are your views on the ethics of a psychologist or psychiatrist getting a soldier back to the front line and operational again? It makes me uneasy. lt reminds me of a story my da told me about a priest in their school saying he actually carried a gun as a chaplin in ww2. The idea of a priest - even in defence - shooting people dead on the battlefield seemed pure dodgy.

@curieux1789 honestly psychologists and psychiatrists that to this ( perhaps not all in the military) are defacto unethical as the aim isn't to help the individual or alleviate symptoms but to get them to preform a task. This is the opposite of how I think about my own work and I personally consider that we aren’t part of the same professional branch. And yes I agree with you example there is something deeply unsettling about health/ goodness being perverted by effects of war.

@@ebbbus Hi so I personally started with this book reverie and interpretation and it was a good read plus it give a clear understanding of type of therapist Ogden is I have also heard a lot of positive things about : the matrix of the mind but haven't read it yet.

@@ebbbus thank you for your kind words. Yes I can fully recommend chapter 9 : Masochistic Pathology in Love Relations by Otto Kernberg. In this chapter he reviews and explains the different types of Masochisms. Plus the whole book is interesting and eye opening.

Yes I fully agree with you and it is aggravating for sure. Unfortunately I don't think the IPA could do something now as we would have to clarify over 100 years of psychoanalytic misconceptions. Also, because every country developed psychoanalysis differently they might be real problems in selecting which concepts to use plus most analysts would have to agree which is unlikely as we can't agree on anything even at the scale of a country. But yeah it's a difficult situation for people trying to learn psychoanalysis :(

@@curieux1789 hi so you have switched to French for the video so I will do the same :) Personnellement j'ai commencé par Fairbairn mais des textes simples comme: les facteurs schizoïde de la personnalité ou sujet prescrie et proscrit. Puis avant de m'attaquer au essai les plus complex j'ai lu Celani il est en effet très eclairant. Concernant votre critique elle est fort a propos car c est l'une des principal faiblesse de la théorie Fairbainien. De souvenir il explique que même la dimension des sensations corporel serai lié a la relation a l'objet ainsi la Libido et toujours en quête de l'objet. Mais je vous l'accord cette explications est insufficente pour ce qui est du nouveau né. Concernant la superficialité des relation chez les schizoïde sociable il l'avais aussi constater et il l'avais nommer les schizoïde exhibitioniste. Et enfin votre Français et très bon. Merci pour votre engagement et vos questions!

Merci de vos commentaires, vous êtes gentil. Je pense maintenant acheter le livre de Celani et de faire des lectures préliminaires avant de m'attaquer directement à Fairbairn. Quand vous parlez de sujet prescrit et proscrit, est-que ça signifie le clivage dans le monde intérieur entre le moi et les parties du soi que la personne croit ne pas être moi? Les aspects du soi qui sont perts et transformés en objets excitants et rejetants par le processus d'identification projective: le moi versus le non-moi, pour ainsi dire. Á votre avis, les idées de Fairbairn sont-elles mieux acceptées dans la psychothérapie dynamique aujourd'hui?

De rien! Alors le text : 'prescribe subjects and proscribed subjects in psychology' est un article qui traite du rejet de la psychanalyse de la part de la psychologie car la psychanalyse met en avant le cote sombre et imprevisible et parfois laide de l'humanité. Il s'agit plus d'un texte qui defens l'interet de la psychanalyse plutôt qu un text theorique. Concernant l'acceptation des théories Fairbairnien je pense que dans les pays Anglo-Saxon les onts accepter en grande parti grace au travail de transmission d'Otto Kernberg et de Thomas Ogden. Mais il reste inconnue des psychologues français surment a cause de sa critique du model Freudien.

Ah, je le vois. Ouais, je pense qu'il y a ceux qui peuvent pas accepter le realisme de la psychanalyse concernant la nature humaine. Par contre, je trouve souvent que la vue des promoteurs de la TCC est trop optimistique. Mais ce réalisme de la psychanalyse est fréquemment confondu avec le cynicisme. Donc, vous dites que la communauté psychanalyse en France rejete Fairbairn en raison de ses théories étant vue comme celles qui appartienne au domaine de la relation d'objet - l'école post-Kleinien, pour ansi dire?

@@VigiliusHaufniensis so true!

I fully agree ! It's an interesting research you doing as it was an attempt to eliminate meaning and it backfired (if I understood this correctly) any thanks for your comment and engagement!

I can't say that I know Taoism that well but I like the idea of strength being found in gentleness and softness.

@@talkingpsychology I'm resisting the urge to info-dump too much here. But that's all it's about. The root of Taoist virtues revolves around softness. A quietening and softening the breath, softening your mental activity, and softening your presence to such a degree that one becomes "invisible" such that one blends into the void of the Tao.

@plantstho6599 thanks for the info the only taoist book I read was the Tao Te Ching by Laozi over 15 years ago I liked how the way is a set of apparent contradictions but that the art is to unify the opposites ( at least that is what I took from it when I was 18) thanks again and have a great day!

Hi so your dream is indeed important and valuable. However answering your questions would go beyond the scope of what I can answer in a RUclips comment for a number of reasons ( ethical, practical, lack of accuracy on my end...). If you feel you need to analyse the dream and it's reflections on your personality it would be better to hire a therapist or get one through the NHS ( even if this isn't perfect). But if you have theoretical questions please feel free to ask.

No worries, yeah I get the ethical side of it. But in general, do people in the borderline area of personality organization have an underlying psychotic structure?

@curieux1789 thank you for your understanding. To answer your question it depends on the school of thought for example Lacanians don't conceive of borderline organisations so they would tell you that yes. Now in the school of Object-Relationships borderline organisations aren't inherently psychotic but they can have psychotic defenses ( split, delusional thinking, feelings of persecution...) If these individuals are in a tough situation mentally. So it depends on the perspective that is adopted. But my opinion is that this people are prone to ontological wavering.

Yeah, my number has actually come up. 3/4 yrs ago I said to my dr about therapy and he did a referral for therapy. Anyway, 4 wks ago I had a letter about an appt with a clinical psychologist. So, I'll see how it goes. It's on the nhs so it's free and I've a low income so I can't complain. Back on topic, yeah I've always wondered about the phenomenom of atypical psychosis... or at least what I understand. Someone goes through a stressful life event/s and they become psychotic. But there's treatment in a mental hospital/anti-psychotics meds and they recover. I wonder do these people tend to have borderline personality (in the broad sense) organization? I mean, I suspect that people with very healthy functioning, personailty wise, are just not going to be susceptible to these types of episodes.

@curieux1789 I wish you the best in your therapeutic endeavours. Now in regards to atypical psychosis it could very well be that someone with a severe personality disorder or massive trauma ( or both) ends up hospitalised and then comes out stabilised. So yes the case you give is clearly possible. However there are also people who trigger schizophrenia but through medication and psychosocial support do reduce their symptoms to a subclinical ( ie non visible) state. But these individuals are referred to having a psychose Blanche. ie psychosis without the symptoms. And even without the apparent manifestations contact and interactions with the outside world remains bizarre and uncommon and these individuals don't have a borderline organisations but A psychotic one that is compensated.

Yes it is the same here in France there is a shortage of every type of medical professional ( GP, physiotherapists, speech therapist, psychiatrists etc.). I do think that psychiatry as a whole has wanted to become 'objective' science rather than phenomenological. It think CBT is also rejected by modern psychiatry as not as good as medication and 'real hard' ie neurology and brain chemistry. My supervisor once told me ' in psychiatry CBT is out of fashion it was replaced by electrodes'. It isn't just an over-correction in my perspective it is a full on regression to the mid 19 century. My feeling is that psychiatry is playing at what it isn't and rejecting it's humanistic philosophy for a cold objective rationalism. In regards psychoanalysis your right 'people of science' tend to reject it ( not all of course). I my experience I have often found their arguments lacking and very superficial and the more in-depth the discussion goes to the more it becomes apparent that they are mostly operating on apriori and misconceptions rather than real critique. And lastly nice/ good use of French there 💯

Thanks. Yeah, the approach of psychiatry seems to be alarming. A few months back I was flicking through a book by a top Irish psychiatrist on 'Madness' in a book shop. Now, I was coming to this as someone who has an interest in psychodynamics but who wouldn't really have known what a pdychiatrist was. I just assumed they were like more high ranking pschotherapists. Anyway, imagine my shock when on chapters dealing with schizophrenia and bipolar, his view was essentially 'we haven't got a clue' but brain chemistry and genes might one day have answers. I was almost expecting to turn the page and discover an exposition on blood letting and the curative powers of leechs.

@curieux1789 I understand it is the sad state of modern psychiatry.

In some ways, it may not be the end of the world. Most people if they need help will see a psychologist, psychotherapist or some form of counsellor. So, surely most care is psychologically oriented. My only concern is that in the rarer cases like schizophrenia where psychiatrists must be more involved, they probably aren't prioritising psychotherapy.

@curieux1789 you are right but in my experience schizophrenic people still benefit from therapy so it a shame that our systems of care work under the paradigm of 'either or' when it should be both medical and psychological treatment.

@@nipsonanomimata thank you for your comment. I agree many fields suffer of 'French exceptionalism' ( including hard science). But it seems that things are slowly changing has younger generations are less prone to dismiss others countries/ cultures.

@@unusualpond thank you for sharing this story. It is unfortunately common that the biological narrative eclipses all other perspectives and the people that end up suffering the most are the patients. And I believe the care provides ( be it family or health care professionals) also suffer from this. It good to now that there still is humanist and psychosocial psychiatrist out there. I hope that one day the scope will broaden up to include psychic complexity again. Anyway thanks again and have a great day!

@@talkingpsychology I was just reminded of a William Osler statement that Oliver’s Sacks (a man who understands the difference between Neurology and Psychiatry!) likes to quote, “Ask not what disease the person has, but rather what person the disease has.”

@@unusualpond that an amazing quote thank for sharing it!

@@talkingpsychology how do you feel about Oliver Sacks?

I have heard many good things about him but I must admit I haven't read his work. Only indirectly through the discipline of neuropsychoanalysis.

@@gabrielniklasschildt5612 thanks for you for pointing this out to me the joys of dyslexia I guess I will now change the title. Thanks again and have great day!

I have to butt in here. I think critique is the right word here. We use the word critique in this way. However, I think the British might do this a bit more than Americans and this might be where the issue arrises. Either way, it's more elevated language as opposed to everyday.

@@curieux1789 it is, he wrote critic in the original title

@@curieux1789 yes Gabriel is right I did use the word critic instead of critique and he kindly pointed out my mistake. Because of my dyslexia this mistake tend to happen to me. And thank you for your comment Curieux1789.

I do feel that the treatment for schizophrenia went from a authoritarian and repressive way to literally abandoning patients to their fate. I also agree that we need caring facilities but in our neoliberal world no gouvernement will go down that road as it see as too expensive. In regards to violence they can be very scary and sometimes physically violent but there not what the media portrays them to be and that is why I mentioned the question of violence in schizophrenia. But you are right living with a schizophrenic can be really difficult and tyring. And lastly psychiatry lost it's love for psychotherapy a long time ago. Perhaps when psychiatrists Started relying on drugs neurology and now metabolic explications rather than theories of the minds. As medication as an objective effect whereas therapy is more elusive by nature but this a 'educated guess' rather than a fact so please take it with a pinch of salt.

I think funding for mental health also suffers from the moral stigma the mentally ill are subjected to. The current government in the UK is leftwing and believes in the state health service but I can foresee them somehow finding a way to channel that into funding for cancer, coronary and new hospitals for the physically sick. These being the deserving ill as opposed to those suffering from mental illness. Yeah, maybe I was being a bit harsh, emotionally draining is what it can feel like dealing with someone who's unstable. Do you think there's something of a manic denial of psychic reality in pychiatry's rejection of psychotherapy?

Thank you for your comments and for sharing your lived experience. So to answer your question in my experience autism itself isn't the issue but the over adaptations or the under adaptations autistic people make with the environment. In this sense therapy can help them make more meaningful and less hurtful adaptations. And Agression is a important emotion to get others to respect one's boundaries. As such therapy helps them navigate both the external and internal worlds ( Mitwelt and Eigenwelt).

Yes, I think you're right. Healthy aggression is essential to navigate the relationships and interactions in life. I think when there is some form of psychopathology or maladption a deep feeling and expression of this emotion is lost to the personality. Would this be described as an inhibition? It gets projected out and the person reacts - aggresively but not conciously - or avoids the object of the projection. I suspect this also sets off fears of retaliation and then excessive guilt if any of this 'bad' emotion is actually felt within the person. Is this the consequence of Klein's postulation that a healthy adult can only emerge if the child has been able to work through persecutory and depressive anxiety?

@curieux1789 yes I do feel being unable to express Agression and make it manifest leads to inhibition both emotional and intellectual and stunts the growth of the ego. And I do believe that a more mentally balanced individual is one that was able to experience and integrate tge Kleinian Paranoid-Schizoid position and the depressive even if I believe that we never fully overcome them and life events reactivates them. Anyway thank you and have great day!

Yes many families work on the line of Antilibinal secrets and it often destructive both for the individual members and the family itself. As you have rightly pointed out there is a impossibility to talk about it and verbalise it's content and I am sorry you had to experience the effects of such a heavy family secret.

Thank you for sharing your inner experiences. Given that I am not your therapist I can't give you a straight answer. But I can say that these fantasies do reflect those I have heard of schizoid patients ( not verbatim but close). In regards to the nature of the phantasy ie going back to the womb you are the only person that can know/feel if it fits you experience or if you are cutting corners on you experience to make it fit the theory.

Yes, I think I see what you mean. There's a danger of putting theory ahead of experience. I suppose what adds to this suspicion that the car might represent a womb phantasy are all the other aspects of my personality that have come more into awareness with time. Things have improved somewhat but I do seem to have schizoid traits... but thats for another topic. Back on the subject of phantasy, how much weight do you give to it alone in driving personality formation, even psychopathology? I mean, I think we can all think of siblings that have had similar childhood experiences but one struggles much more in life. Ofcourse, the assumption that their environmental experiences have been alike is just that but could any difference be attributed solely to one's childhood unconcious phantasy being that much more warping, for want of a better expression?

I am glad to hear that you have improved and evolution is a life long process. In regards to how much phantasy shapes an individual's life and potential mental illness is up for debate like the chicken and the egg issue. But I do believe that some way of beings share some common phantasy like the phantasy of being a plant in autism or regressing back to the womb for schizoids etc. In regards to siblings it is interesting to note the even if they have the same parents these parents might behave/project differently for each of them given each one a unique perspective that share similar traits to the other siblings. Plus if the parents split between children they might have an utterly different subjective experience.

Thanks, yeah I've come to realise that the journey from the inner world to a better grasp of reality is going to be a lifelong struggle. I keep thinking of Freud's grim realisation about the extent of his own problems. Yes, I get what you're saying about different parental projections unto the children. A friend of mine - although I haven't seen him in ages as I tend to withdraw from relationships - clearly has a borderline organisation and I've come to believe that his volatile mother had a much more intense relationship with him than the other siblings. Interestingly, the reverse of the car phantasy seems to exist for him. He doesn't drive and is forever glued to people for lifts. It makes me think that having a car for him would act as a barrier and prevent him from fusing with people - he can never be alone and a car might result in moments like this. Is phantasy and for that matter all thought the mental product of the child's emotions colliding with the parental objects in infancy?

@@curieux1789 well it is a very interesting question. I think it calls for a very nuanced answer as I think that yes to an extent unconscious phantasy are a merging of many factors and the parental psyche is one of them and these ones are what psychoanalysis focuses on. Thank again and have a great day!

Very interesting questions so in regards to improvements in sublimation during therapy it can be measured like a patient that goes from venting his Agression and frustration to expressing these feelings through art/ creation. In regards to career choices I think they can be interesting evolutions or regressions but there are a lots a variables to take into consideration like the socio-economic background of the individual, there enjoyment in their career, their identification... And it is all very dependent on who the individual is. I would recommend Edward Glover article 'On the concept of dissociation' in which he points out that one man ego weakness is an other man's ego strength. Concerning Freud he never truly separated from his mother and continued to visit her regularly throughout adulthood though he would experience severe digestive pain when going to see her. So many you are onto something there. And lastly, giving up smoking could be a sign of psychic maturation but I would think of it as the weakening of the illusion of immortality within the individual but this pure speculation. Thank you and have great day.

Yes, that's true, someone might have limited choice in their work options. That's so interesting about Freud. I believe he became concerned later in life that his primary patient was himself. I think I agree about the immortality and smoking but is this tied to the death drive posited by Freud and Klein. Are highly self destructive oral habits like smoking, alcoholism and drug consumption an expression of an orally aggressive urge to self annihilate and return to an inanimate state? This is a bit negative but another problematic sublimation I was wondering about is say if someone is overly tidy with the 'perfect' home. Could this indicate underlying splitting and denial: the person may not be able to tolerate the bad parts of themself?

@@curieux1789 in regards to the death drive that would be the implications yes. For the excess cleaning it can be as you describe a way of splitting and dening a part of the self but I would go even further and say it is to cleanse the bad internal objects as often ( generalisation incoming so please take it with a pinch of salt) the people that 'need' everything to be clean have be sexualy abused and the tidiness is a way of making sure the trauma is under control and that the individual is devoid of the badness of the aggressor. But as said previously it isn't always the case.

@@curieux1789 yes autism and intellectual disability ( ID) can be associated. But not every ID person has Autistic traits. In regards to psychoanalysis development stages people with ID can be helped in overcoming some fixation ( like oral or anal...) and develop more secondary defenses like sublimation or humour etc. Now there also case where some with ID might also have a personality disorder or a psychosis in these cases symptoms often then to be more visible than someone with standard intellect and if it is the case they will need therapy and/or medication to help with the mental illness exactly like the reste of the population. Hope it helps!

Very interesting, thanks for the reply. Developing sublimations is something I find hopeful. Do you believe intellectual impairment is the result of nature or nurture? Part of me wonders if it's as Klein claimed that there is too much persecutory anxiety in the first 3 months and the infant becomes too afraid of the mother's body and all that this comes to symbolize through sublimation in the external world. Is intellectual impairment in some profound way a lack of curiosity in symbolic representations out there in world? Also, the oral failure to take in. Does this translate into a failure to consume knowledge and in particular abstract thought. I don't know if you've seen the 80s film Rain Man. It's losely based on the real life savant Kim Peek. There's a pivotal scene near the end where on hearing that Raymond has kissed a woman, the psychiatrist interviewing him asks 'what did it feel like?' The reply 'it was wet' shows the concretization of Raymond's thought. I suppose what I'm getting at is could intellectual impairment and the difficulties in abstract thought that go with it be the result of some rupture in the early mother-child relationship?

@curieux1789 so nature vs nurture is one of those never ending debates. In regards intellectual impairment it is believed that it has a biological root be it chromsomic like down syndrome, fragile x syndrome,Angelman syndrome... but we have evidence that low intellectual stimulation, neglect, abuse can damage learning abilities even more. Thus if an ID individual grows up in a positive environment he might have a more curious attitude but often they tend to disinvest intellectual knowledge as they understand/have been told that this isn't they forte. Also they is a lot of frustration involved in not understanding what other child get with ease. So short answer I believe it to be biological rooted for most people with ID but it might be worsened or attenuated by the environment. Now in rare cases a child might inhibited is intellectual development because of an impossibility in the relationship to the primary care giver ( PCG) in these case I would say that indeed the symbolic and metaphorical is blocked. Not because the oral stage has failed but because the PCG is unable to introduce reverie, psychic care and love into the relationship starving the child and preventing it from developing an internal world. And lastly I haven't see Rain Man but I heard about it.

Very interesting. Yeah, Rain Man is well worth a watch from a psychology point of vue. That's fascinating about their disinvesting in intellectual curiosity. Does that result in a kind of split in the personality where intellectual capacity becomes a 'not me': a projection disowned by the ID person? My interest in this is connected to some thoughts on schizophrenia. I've read that some people on developing the acute phase see a fall in IQ. And I've read a paper by Hanna Segal about changes in a schizophrenic's symbol formation - the symbolic became unconsciously equated with the act - in this case sexual - that it before represented. Interest was withdrawn and embarrassment was felt - without a concious link of course. Does this represent an intellectual curtailment? Further, I wonder if the world salad feature of acute schizophrenia can be seen as an intellectual loss. The person seems confused in their processing of information - is this because of a confusion between self and other, internal and external? I think Klein believed that schizophrenia stemmed from a fixation in the early months. This leads me to speculate about a connection between arrests in development and intellectual difficiency. But yeah, nature plays a big part as you show.

@@curieux1789 yes it is a very interesting and complex topic. I personally believe that it is a myriad of factor that determine a mental illness ( genetic, environmental, early infantile life, in uterus life, relationships, temperament...). I can attest that cognitive functioning ( and by extension IQ) tend to go down after a psychotic episode but not often to the point of ID ( my understanding is that those who do fall in ID were always on the Borderline of ID). For exemple John Nash a mathematics professor was able to continue is work despite many psychotic episodes in his life. In regards to symbolic formation in schizophrenia in is an interesting topic. My clinical experience with people classified as 'premorbid schizophrenics' has show me that they have always struggled with the symbolic formation either by having massive inhibitions or by having what we call in France 'symbolisme hermetique' ie 'hermetical symbolism' meaning that the symbols they use are purely personal and not shared with others. Concerning ID and intellectual curiosity it is also a complicated process as often caregivers don't let the child the time to come up with questions and daydream. Often they believe that the child must learn so learning isn't a enjoyable process but a chore. Often parents will say that they speak to the ID children for them to acquire skills. But they don't have the same attitude towards their non disabled children they speak to them because they enjoy it. All of this plus the projection cause the child to avoid learning to avoid the pain of failure and parent disappointment. Also according to psychoanalyst Simon Sausse when a child asks questions they are inherently asking why they were born. A question that the parents struggle to answer because of the guilt linked with creating a disabled child. And finally I intent to watch rain man some day !

Glad you liked it!

@@amareamore1693 you are welcomed and thank you for your engagement!

Yes I completely agree with you. The personality of the therapist is paramount as a classic psychoanalyst type wouldn't be able to appropriately work with them and I also agree psycho education is essential at some points for them to get the best out of therapy. Anyway thank you as always and have great day!

@@curieux1789 it very certainly possible yes I have observed in my clinical experience often there is a split in their personality and they might be unable to reunite the different parts. And this split extends to after the events. Thanks again for your engagement and interesting questions!

Do you think that in these cases, as in so many where there is severe psychopathology, that it's the shear extent of the person's inner world/fantasy life that contributes to the pathology in relating?

@@curieux1789 yes I do believe it to be the case that these abusive people have themselves being the victims of abuse. Trauma that has come to define their inner world ( ex: it's dog eat dog, kill or be killed...) but it has also become inaccessible in many ways perhaps to 'safe guard' the fragile self from breaking down completely. However this inner world still exerts effects and prevents them from relating to others as 'whole objects' ie as other people/humans. Instead they project on others their inner world and bad objects. Hope I was claire in my explanation any have a great day!

Really interesting. Yes, I agree that where there has been a traumatizing parent, so much of the persons ego is impoverished through projection or indeed projective indentification. Does this result in a somewhat unconscious person who can't differentiate between what's internal and external? Sadly, I think the child of such a person may become the bad object and the abuse - in this warping of reality by inner fantasy - becomes some sort of defensive reaction. I can remember a case in the news here, some years ago where a couple were found guilty of gross abusiveness. The thing that struck me was the female guardian was crying tears of what seemed like shock... as if she'd only just realised what she'd been doing.

@@curieux1789 yes the child becomes both a representation of vulnerability in the adult and the child they used to be. In regards reality test these people might lose it during acute emotional experiences. Thus inner and external world merge. And to cope with that split and dissociated themselves. The case you gave isn't rare as the justice system forces those split parts to reunite and often creates a breakdown in these people has there mental system isn't equipped to handle the reunification of the splitting.

@@safeeffective385 I apologise for the misunderstanding in the conversation. You are right in saying that both genders commit violence ( physical, psychological, financial...) nobody is inherently better and they isn't a good and a bad gender. There are people now in pure statistical terms men are more likely to severely injure their spouses ( sources connect.springerpub.com/content/sgrvv/10/4/251) and more likely to be sexuality abusive and controling ( sources: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2968709/). Also, I was taking the perspective of Celani in his book and according to him women can also be violent but it's men are more likely to be ( please note that the book was written in 2004 so the data might have changed). Lastly my aim isn't to essentialise the question of violence but to try and understand why despite the pain and suffering people go back to there abusive partners. I hope at least on this we can reach commun ground.

Thanks for your comment! Yes men can absolutely fall into the same pattern Celani gives an example in the book and I seen it in my Clinical experience. So you are right but men can also fall into the pattern of becoming abusers themselves because of their Unconscious identification with the aggressors ( an mote prevalent phenomenon in men than women even if women can do the same). Anyway thank you again and have a great day/night.

@@talkingpsychology "Even if women could do the same"? Are you serious? I personally had 7 ACE scores from childhood and wound up married to an equally extremely-abusive woman that was just as bad as my Mother. I served in the Army for 8 years and saw plenty of situations where the woman was criminally abusive towards men. So, not sure what you're trying to suggest here in that abusers are only men, as that's not at all true.

@@safeeffective385 not what I am trying to say no I am sorry for those terrible experiences you have undergone. Human can be terrible regardless of gender and I understand you are angry but I am not defending abusive women/ mothers.

Hello @safeeffective385. I've read all your comments in this video and i agree totally with you simply because i've had the same experiences as you. Based on some comments you've made in here, i might think as a possibility that even some of your therapists rejected the abuse you endured from your mother, not to mention how many people could have been biased against you in this regard. This is what has been happening to me when i started confronting my abusive parents to put the guilt and responsibility where it truly belongs. I would like to talk to you man, how can i contact you?

Thank you for engaging on the channel and you kind words. In regards psychodynamic therapy in France you could potentially still get trough state regulated institutions like psychological medical centres ( CMP), hospitals, battered shelters... However times are changing here both in terms of theoretical orientation the 3 previous neoliberal gouvernements have pushed for CBT rather than psychodynamic and have make increasingly harder budget cuts. But given the previous hegemony of psychoanalysis in France a large number of clinicians still practice it and are holding out at this point in time its about 50-50. Also a large number of psychologists in private practice can lower their fees if the person is struggling financially so that can be tried. In regards to psychoanalysis proper training institutions might offer free/ cheap psychoanalysis if you agree to work with a newly form therapist. Hope It help have a great day/night!

​@@talkingpsychology Thanks for getting back to me. Would CMPs over there provide psychoanalysis at say 3 or 4 sessions a week or would it be more like psychodynamic with 1 sess per wk? Atleast, that's what I understand to be a difference between the two modes: the no. of weekly sessions.

@@curieux1789 You are welcomed. Well unfortunately with the budget cuts they wouldn't be able to provide these numbers right now it would be more around 1 to 2 sessions a month. To make matters worse some CMP have stopped providing psychotherapy because of work load. In many regards France is starting to go the way of England.

I wonder would one session per mnth be enough in psychodynamic therapy for the patient to invest in the emotional weight of transferring their inner world onto the therapist? In your experience, would psychodynamic therapists in France give more weight to the Lacanian school as opposed to Object Relations, Klein or Ego psychology, or does it vary from practitioner to practitioner?

@@curieux1789 good questions ! Normally once a month wouldn't be very effective but given the economic situation we live in it might be better than nothing. Also, it varies from therapist to therapist but in my experience Lacanian theory does indeed have more reach and influence than proper object relations theory in France ( given we are Lacan's country.) But there are other schools of psychoanalysis like: psychosomatic, orthodox Freudians, Jungians etc. To the extent of my knowledge ego psychology and parts of object relations ( like Fairbairn) are virtually absent from French psychoanalysis unfortunately.

Thank you for your feedback positive feedback! I do tend to make verbal and written mistakes so thank you for pointing them out !