Incredible timing, I'm just in the process of researching this very topic and was lamenting that it would be nice see a comparison from a seasoned combat pilot / PvPer. Most of the other Tobii vs. TrackIR videos are more from a content creator / generalist SC player point of view. Thanks for this, Avenger.
Just be aware that Tobii does not work on larger displays Tobii themselves acknowledge this but not in their advertising, I have a simpit with a 48" oled and it will not work in my situation but trackIR works great for me.
@@rooster1012 how far back are you away from the screen? I am using a 52" and I am back between 6-7 feet and have been concerned whether any of these packages will work for me.
I spent quite some time using Tobii Eye Tracker 5 but found a second hand TrackIR 5 recently and decided to try it out. For me, TR5 seems to keep its direction better, feels a bit more responsive. But also allows more freedom in placement of the sensor, which is the most important feature for me. So I ended up selling the Tobii and keeping TR5.
As an owner of both I would say the biggest con for tobi is its wayyy more limited range/fow. I have desk (ed: chair* sorry) mounted sticks so I have to sit a little bit away from my screen and with the tobi mounted to the edge of my desk could bearly work. Gase based targeting (one of to is best features) work better if you are in tobis sweet spot, otherwise targeting missiles is such a pain u stop using them. I did find a jank way to bring tobi closer to me by using Dif combos of camera mounts/clamps. If I could I would use tobi, but I mainly use ti5.
For now for convenience sake for my TR5 I just use the supplied hat clip and one of my wifes right sized hair ties to hold it in place on top of my headphones, super quick n easy to put on and take off when im in the mood for taking a break(screw wearing a hat lol, headphones are good enough to for it to be mounted to). It stills works perfectly im guessing because the sensor isn't to far away and I don't have too much light pollution going on. One day i'll finally use the track clip pro then again if i ever get a decent wireless headset thats as good as the wired one i have it would be highly tempting to stick with my current setup and stay fully wireless.
I wonder how much is the hardware vs. the software? Tobii head tracking feels pretty good in Hunternet compared to Track IR and VR head tracking. It's not quite as snappy as Track IR but I was impressed with it when I worked on the support for it. Eye tracking for more precise targeting is really nice. It's a touch choice so videos like this one are a very useful :)!
Nice video! I was just looking into these things. I set up my old webcam with SC built-in Foip system and it works supprisingly but i wouldnt trust it enough to use in combat. For regular noncombat flight it was ok.
i have the Tobii and its great. my big thing was wanting something that didnt have any delay or lag when moving. Tobii has none of that at all so i dont get the sick feeling or headache from it. plus nothing attached to me at all. in SC the eye tracking with head tracking is nice. even if i dont move my head itll turn the camera slightly and it feel natural. head tracking and eye tracking can all be tweaked to your pref in software. u can speed up slow down, set deadzone and saturation limits.
Went with the Tobii about a month ago and been happy with it. I only wish it had more functionality within Windows itself but as for as Star Citizen goes, it's great.
I enjoy my Tobii (and the non-gaming benefits are super solid), but I've always felt like the Track IR would be more precise for head tracking, and thought that a combination of TrackIR head tracking with Tobii eye tracking would be optimal. I'm happy to not have the TrackIR hanging off my headphones though.
Great video, really helped my decision making process. Helpful criticism: try not to swallow/click your tongue as audibly and often as you do here because it's a bit much in headphones. New to the channel but loving your content so far ty
The target locking with Tobii is amazing, have you tried it? That alone almost locks me into my Tobii over my TIR5. Having to wear nothing is also nice. I use Tobii with eye tracking (for head movement) off but you can still use the eyes for target selection. Try it that way, when you set it to head only you can crank up the response. The latency is slightly worse but it's bearable. Now if we could get eye gimbals that would be amazing. I don't think it would be stronger then mouse aiming with gimbals. Maybe you can but this bug into some ones ear who matters. :D
Havent tried the tobii but I got trackir5 recently and just got the predator mounts for my sticks and it's pretty sweet so far. I'm also using my thrust master racing pedals as a throttle with joystick gremlin. It all took a fair bit of fiddling around setting everything up but once I did it is quite the experience
I suppose TR5 is more ideal for PVP while TOBII is better for general purpose. Definitely will look into getting the TOBII because from what I see in the comments on their experience, it does seem more ideal for me, since i'm also of the industrial sort, having that situation awareness will be nice and the eye tracker might be pretty neat.
Can you not disable the eye tracking but keep the head tracking? I’m looking into an head tracker for different games myself. And I used the first TR system that used a modified PS3 camera. But I had too much light pollution so I couldn’t use it. I am kinda attracted to Tobii mainly because you don’t have to wear anything on your head.
Can I switch the eye tracking off to just use it as a head tracker.? I really like the idea of the TOBII, but I get migraines if I'm darting my eyes around too much. Would be happy with either option of tracker, but it sounds like the TOBII would be better for my type of gameplay assuming it isn't going to criple me in the process.
I’ve had a TR5 for 4 years or so, the pro-clip is now coming apart being so flimsy as it is. It worked really well in SC, while I never really got it set correctly for DCS World. Best head tracking is still from VR.
What I don't understand is how/why is head movement even a thing? I play on a 34in monitor and it's at the perfect distance that everything on screen is in view, and there's very little else in my periphery. (It's also curved.) I don't need to move my eyes much and I certainly don't noticeably move my head at all. (I'm sure that I do on a microscopic level to some degree.) Are these systems good enough to detect almost no movement? It seems counterproductive to have to move your head or eyes to view your periphery since that would move you vision away from your screen. It makes sense for VR, just not for having a screen in front of you. I feel like a multi-screen wide angle set-up would be far better suited since then when you look to the side or move your head, you still have a screen in front of you.
I used the Tobii for a while but i had to send it back because i got motion sickness :(. I have no problem with VR but i think i cant get over it, that with head tra king a slight motion of my head translates into a big movement on screen. I also tried track ir with a ps camera years ago for elite with the same Problems... After that video i really ask myself if I'm the only one with these problems?
gotta tweak it to your comfort lvl. i had an oculus rift s and couldnt play anything no matter what i tried plus it was just uncomfortable and messy. tobii worked out the box 10x better and after a few tweaks its perfect
Tried Tobi and can only conclude it did not work because of my glasses because it would not work with them on and it was either track my eyes and work or being able to see the game and it not work!
Tobii is way better. I have both and I even bought a wireless thing for track IR and it’s not worth the wires. And I I feel tobii has been super accurate. The track IR’s software is better as far as settings curves through it though.
The only reason for me to use TR5 is if you are using multi screen setups as Tobii doesn't support that. TR5 only cares about the position of the LEDs or reflective thing. Nothing else. That is the biggest plus of that system. But the free look head tracking AND gaze feels so natural. It may not feel as responsive. But it does seem to be less bothering to me. And Tobii's biggest plus is that it's at least somewhat useful with Windows Hello outside games.
What is best? Headtracking Wrong!. Conan, what is best? To crush their shields, to see them flee before you, and to hear the explosions of their reactors.
You can turn off Tobii's eye tracking in SC by dragging the "Input Mix" bar all the way to the right side, also turn off the Gaze Based Target Selection, it will screw up your missile locks. Tobii has a very cool feature is that it lets you log into Window by scanning your face. And IR5 has a lot more games supporting it.
Nice summary of the differences! It's worth mentioning that there are cheaper implementations of TrackIR that achieve the same performance. I use one called DelanClip; a UK based business creating TrackIR kits (which use PS3 Eye camera + an IR headset clip) for pretty cheap (£65 for the wired one, £98 for wireless), that price difference along with the responsiveness made it a no brainer over Tobii for me.
I second that. Open Track with the DelanClip is amazing. I only started to have issues with the PS3 camera (after some time the signal in OpenTrack become full white). Strangely the day after it works. Not sure what it is exactly. Still for the price, a very good solution.
What anyone looking at head tracking has to remember is they are all just another set of control axis. It is not a natural intuitive system like vr. I'm sure almost anyone could adjust to tobbi's input latency for any play style.
You can disable the eye tracking portion of Tobii by setting the gaze to head tracking ratio slider in the Star Citizen tracking settings to zero for Gaze. I also dislike the eye tracking for flight, and was very happy I could turn it off and just have head tracking. Also, I've found cranking the tracking sensitivity in the SC settings helped make the Tobii feel more natural at matching my head movement speed. TrackIR is still faster and more responsive, but the Tobii doesn't feel "sluggish" with that tweak. Plus, even with eye tracking at zero, SC still allows you to do eye-based targeting, which is fantastic. I can turn to my right 90 degrees, look at a cluster of targets, and precisely pick out the one I want from it with a single target lock just by looking at it with my eyes, but my eyes darting around never alter the view itself... It's a nice feature, especially in huge org fights with tons of targets.
I like to dabble in everything, but the biggest reason I use Tobii is for the gaze based targeting. I can select a specific target simply by looking at it, and I really like that.
So I have a nice webcam and trackir, is there any way I can do that with either of those? Can track-ir be good enough for that to where I can just select whatever target I'm looking at with that?
Thanks Avenger. I personally have both and prefer the Tobii primarily for its eye-tracking ability and not having to physically wear any device for it to work. I've been able to tune the eye-tracking down to the speed I need to perfectly pinpoint what I'm trying to see. Initially before tuning the eye tracking, it was a bit all over the place and too fast as the human eyes move so quickly and it was hard to focus, or your eyes would move your view too suddenly to almost a blur. I have my headtracking with Tobii tuned to be pretty fast as you described TR5. With the head moving just as fast as TR5 but being able to get that added pinpoint eye tracking. This allows me to naturally see with my eyes while tracking simultaneously with my head. I don't know how advantageous this would be in PVP but for me, in PVE and other run of the mill type of play in SC, it's wonderful and a necessity.
I have both and I simply prefer the tobi. How easy it is to turn on and get straight into game is perfect for me. Plus I have a few issues moving my mouse so the tobi works nicely in windows with a ability to look at a point on screen and your mouse automatically appears there. Fantastic tool
agreed. one of my favorite videos you did was where you explained how each of the settings impacts piloting and combat and you explained why you set what you set to what you set it to.... say that 5 times fast! anyways i'd love more videos that go into some of the hardware aspects, albeit you might of already done some.
I was gonna say headtracking is still combat related but A1 did mention industry XD Im sure pops is having a much more immersive time with the tracking and stuff while he mines / hauls.. I might have to pick myself up a tracker of some kind.. I tried using a webcam to track my head but its kinda wonky and I gave up on it.
While Tobii isn't your preferred device, would you be willing to make a settings video to help others get a feel for the miriad of settings the Tobii has?
I bought the Tobii last year because I had a lot of online meetings and didnt want to remove the Headclip every time. Also tobii software makes plug and play very easy (also in other games). And since I don't need the mega ultra presicion even though I do PvP it is more than enough for me. Highly recommended!
I have owned TR-5 for years before I switched over to Tobii. I would argue that Tobii is just as responsive as TR-5 but it depends on your hardware - specifically your GPU/CPU and your monitor refresh rate. As for eye tracking I don't use it and completely disable it on Tobii.
Good summary of the Track IR 5. I use one and I love it but it's fair to add the following critiques about it: Track IR 5 is old. There haven't been major updates to the hardware or software. The hardware, I admit, kiiiiinda sucks. There are two options for the tracking you wear on your head. The default method is the included hat clip. It requires you to wear a hat, and it's cheap garbage. You NEED the pro clip, and the pro clip requires you wear a headset, which I do anyways but maybe that's not appealing to some people. It's also fairly fragile. I've taken really good care of mine over the last 3 years and it's now starting to fall apart and is being held together with tape. If you forget to run the software before you run your game or the software crashes (which is very rare), you will need to restart your game. It will not work unless you run the software before you run the game you want to use it with. It's a wired connection. I believe there are ways or products that let you mod it to be wireless, but a wireless option is not included. Critiques aside, I absolutely love it, and it's simply no longer an option to play Star Citizen without it, at least not until the game supports VR. I even use it for FPS. The software is a little tricky to tune at first but you can get the hang of it pretty easy. If I can do it anyone can do it. I haven't tried the Tobii, but my friend loves it and even offered to buy one for me. I'm not against it, I find the accessibility of it quite appealing, but the fact is I already have one head tracker and don't need another, and least not until the tape gives out, and even then I STILL might choose the TrackIR5 for the responsiveness you mentioned. Track IR could definitely be better put together but it's still the better option for me personally.
One major Tobii feature I didn't hear you mention is gaze-based target selection. This even allows off-axis missile locking simply by looking at a target (even over your shoulder at someone chasing you). I don't think you can do that with TR5, right?
On Star Citizen you can use your webcam to track your head. Hey cheap webcam of 30 bucks would be the cheapest option to go. And it's possible not as good as. Toby or track 5 but you get what you pay for
Tobii eye tracking really increases my immersion. I never used track ir or face tracking much and I got both a track IR 4 and a tobii (though i'm sure track IR 5 is different) and tobii felt more natural with eye movements added into the tracking as well.
Could you go over the trackir 5 motion adjustments in a future video? I just use the default profile atm but figure I could dial it in better if I knew exactly what I'm doing.
Ohh, one other thing that I found to be a problem with TR5 for me and my setup, is that on bright and sunny days it would at times make my TR5 skip or lag in the head tracking. Sometimes, because of where my rig is set up, I couldn't use the TR5 because it would be all over the place due to interference. I've never had that problem with Tobii.
Am I looking at the wrong places? I went to compare them myself but it seems like the Tobii Eye Tracker 5 was sitting around $280-$300, and the TIR 5 was around $150-$170 (depending on clip option). We’re they really close in price just 5 months ago? Why is it seemingly $100+ more for Tobii now?
Ah, see, now this makes sense. I've been wondering why I suck at PVP still; it turns out it's just because I'm using a Tobii. Totally clears things up... ... ...time to go get my 1% in. ^^;
Track IR is head-tracking. Tobii is head + EYE tracking. That right there, for me, wins - hands down. Track IR has the better responsiveness. Tobii has the overall better experience / features, but yes, some folks will prefer Track IR's responsiveness.
I use a large screen tv as a monitor and sit back 7 feet back from the monitor. I know there is some technical limitations on using the head trackers from that distance. Have you had any experience in this?
I picked up the Tobii for all the pro's that were mentioned. However, I dont really see responsive problems with the Tobii. It is more than responsive enough for me. But perhaps I am just not quick enough in combat to notice lag :D
I don't get lag either but am close to small monitor. I've also compared it on the same set up to other options. I wonder if monitor size and distance makes a difference
Honestly the reason I went with Tobii was that I don't always have a headset on. Minimalist fan and I am more like your dad where I am a fan of the industrial side of the game but don't shy away from a little pvp. I do have an issue with the Tobii that you didn't come across. I do have to reset the Tobii from time to time. Not often but sometimes ill do something and bam outa whack but I have it hot-keyed and its easy to reset it. It does take some getting used to the eye tracking as well and I normally have it set way down. Anyhow great video man.
Yah brother I love my tobii. I use it for dcs and star citizen and flight sim. It’s great for all of them and I bring it with me on the road so on my laptop or desktop I have head tracking.
This is exactly the experience I had with tobii. The delay of the headtracking is simply too high. I always hoped that it would get better with future updates of the Tobii software, but it didn't. The eyetracking works very fast - almost perfect for me, so I don't understand why the headtracking function is so slow.
I've used both on the same set up and don't get the delay but that is being very close to a small monitor so maybe that makes a difference. A lot of people don't get tobii dialed in right which makes a difference tho
I disabled the eye tracking completely in Tobi in almost every game that I play. It is very disorienting as it shifts the view around when I don't need it to.
I was worried about the eye movement as well, but you can fine tune the sensitivity and speed of both head and eyes so that they are as fast or slow as you need it to be. I found a healthy mix for mine.
Huh, interesting. I have to reset my tobii quite often, but then, I do sit quite far from it, maybe that's the problem. Also, for tobii, you can set it to only track your head movement in SC. I mean, it still tracks your eyes, and can be annoying when targeting or missile locking, but "vision movement" based on your eyes can be disabled.
Your right about the immersion I'm using tracker IR5 with a motion platform spent a few days with out either one and my experience felt off disconnected almost
I have a Tobbi but I am M&K and I honestly have used it a few times and never used it since. It's still sitting there attached to my PC. I will just have to wait and see for the future I guess if I get some sticks.
Great summary of both systems. I use Tobii and ended up turning of Gaze. But you still get the option to use gaze for target select. I played around with using facetrackNoIR and using the TrackIR selection in game in stead of Tobii. You loose the eye tracking completely but the head tracking can be a little more responsive.
Nice breakdown A1. I use a Tobii and love it, but I have experienced situations where the eye tracking portion is troublesome. Like while locking missiles if you look down at the MFDs the missile lock ring starts to degrade. I've learned to cope with it because I love the gaze targeting... Being able to lock, and fire missiles backwards with the rear view camera is really fun.
I run the slider that divides eye/head tracking emphasis all the way to the right so that the Tobii is essentially functioning as a head tracker only. The same thing kept happening to me, a glance down at a hud would upset my lock.
Great video as always. I can't remember my exact tobii settings, but I'm like 95-99% head tracking, 1-5% eye tracking. Pretty sure it's a 99-1 split. Hope they can work on the lag (its not noticeable in most gameplay)
I swear, just recently I thought about this and wondered what the differences are. I definitely want one, I guess I'll wait for a good deal to get either. Thanks!
Hey, Avenger One. Im eyeballing this Grass Monkey Monkey King Puck. Its wireless and It seems to have great reviews comparing it to track iR. As it claims to have 240 hz and .24 latency which puts its performance above the tr5. Have you looked at this product? What are your thoughts.
@@Avenger__One I grabbed one ill let you know honestly if its butter smooth. Not that you know me from a hole in the wall but ill let you guys know anyways. Also thanks for all the Videos that you have produced they have helped a lot in the Dog Fighting category which is my favorite thing to do in the verse.
i see a lot of Potential for Tobii 5 epscially if they can make interact modes feel more fluid by having buttons a little bigger in some cases and allow focus eye intteractions maybe even pre-emptive player animations
I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but a big disadvantage of the tobii is the size of screen it works with. I try to use mine , head tracking only, with a 80" screen so It sits on my desk. It kinda works, but not ideal and you get no eye tracking with anything larger than a 34" screen.
the eye tracking on the tobii only supports up to a 27" screen. i have it on a 32" curved and it works. the 52", and more then 3' of distance i'm assuming is going to not fly.
If I was you I wouldn't bother with it. Playing on a 57-in TV your frame rates are crap and I don't believe you would get much improvement out of a device like this.
How do you account for the monitor being in a fixed place but phisically pointing your face away from it? How exaggerated of a movement do you have to make to move your in game head? Is it 1:1? Or does a slight glance turn your head 45 degrees? These things have been my major concern with either system and why I just want to wait for true VR, but willing to be convinced.
As I have used both: TrackIR 5 needs a dark space and no light pollution as you said, but Tobii is the opposite, it needs light to see your eyes and even the shape of your head. It does not work well in a dark environment. By dark I mean only light coming from you monitor. TR5 is better at zooming than Tobii. Tobii is not eye glasses friendly unlike TR5. The reflections from your glasses can interfere with Tobii but do not affect TR5. Tobii however eliminates cabling issues which is par for the course with TR5. And I have to reset Tobii ALL the time. Head position matters when it comes to re-centering Tobii. However, there are several settings in Star Citizen that can auto-center Tobii. Tobii also has a floating problem even if you disable eye tracking, your facial expressions can cause Tobii to move by itself even if you do not move your head position. (i.e. eye brow raising, or exaggerated neck/jaw movements) TR5 is better at snapping to center point than Tobii which eliminates floating issues when looking forward. And yes you are right TR5 is more responsive, there is an input delay with Tobii that for someone like me who is very sensitivity to response times there is a noticeable delay. Truthfully been debating about going back to TR5 myself.
Thanks for your insights. For me it would have been more rounded if you'd compared to the built in head tracking via webcam which is what I'm currently using. I can tell that how well my face is lit has an effect on it. What I don't know is how responsive the head tracking is (when set up well) compared to the tr5 and Tobi. Yours would be the most valued opinion on this.
I´m using Tobii for a year now in DCS and SC. From the comfort factor and for casual gameplay it is just perfect. But i have some problems with it were tobii is allways recognizing head movement even if i´m sitting 100% still. This makes it for example impossible to shoot the gun where you look at in the AH-64D in DCS. And if i´m sitting to close to the monitor it has difficulties to recognize my eye movment in the upper corners. don´t know if other people experience this behaviour aswell.
you can adjust the sensitivity using the software, and why are you so close to the monitor that your out of view range of tobii.. you have to be breathing right on the screen cause my eye sight sucks so tent to get close but not so much that tobii cant track me.. move back or adjust the angle of the tobii so it points up higher.
![A MESSAGE TO CHRIS, ON COMBAT [STAR CITIZEN MASTER MODES]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SNm8RaKHLHg/mqdefault.jpg)
![A MESSAGE TO CHRIS, ON COMBAT [STAR CITIZEN MASTER MODES]](/img/tr.png)
![Cody Johnson - I'm Gonna Love You (with Carrie Underwood) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yy9PuYMU29g/mqdefault.jpg)
Incredible timing, I'm just in the process of researching this very topic and was lamenting that it would be nice see a comparison from a seasoned combat pilot / PvPer. Most of the other Tobii vs. TrackIR videos are more from a content creator / generalist SC player point of view.
Thanks for this, Avenger.
Just be aware that Tobii does not work on larger displays Tobii themselves acknowledge this but not in their advertising, I have a simpit with a 48" oled and it will not work in my situation but trackIR works great for me.
@@rooster1012 how far back are you away from the screen? I am using a 52" and I am back between 6-7 feet and have been concerned whether any of these packages will work for me.
I spent quite some time using Tobii Eye Tracker 5 but found a second hand TrackIR 5 recently and decided to try it out. For me, TR5 seems to keep its direction better, feels a bit more responsive. But also allows more freedom in placement of the sensor, which is the most important feature for me. So I ended up selling the Tobii and keeping TR5.
Wasn't sure which to pick up, timely, thank you!
Great content as always. Really enjoyed your thoughts on the two different options!
As an owner of both I would say the biggest con for tobi is its wayyy more limited range/fow. I have desk (ed: chair* sorry) mounted sticks so I have to sit a little bit away from my screen and with the tobi mounted to the edge of my desk could bearly work. Gase based targeting (one of to is best features) work better if you are in tobis sweet spot, otherwise targeting missiles is such a pain u stop using them. I did find a jank way to bring tobi closer to me by using Dif combos of camera mounts/clamps. If I could I would use tobi, but I mainly use ti5.
For now for convenience sake for my TR5 I just use the supplied hat clip and one of my wifes right sized hair ties to hold it in place on top of my headphones, super quick n easy to put on and take off when im in the mood for taking a break(screw wearing a hat lol, headphones are good enough to for it to be mounted to). It stills works perfectly im guessing because the sensor isn't to far away and I don't have too much light pollution going on. One day i'll finally use the track clip pro then again if i ever get a decent wireless headset thats as good as the wired one i have it would be highly tempting to stick with my current setup and stay fully wireless.
I wonder how much is the hardware vs. the software? Tobii head tracking feels pretty good in Hunternet compared to Track IR and VR head tracking. It's not quite as snappy as Track IR but I was impressed with it when I worked on the support for it. Eye tracking for more precise targeting is really nice. It's a touch choice so videos like this one are a very useful :)!
Nice video! I was just looking into these things. I set up my old webcam with SC built-in Foip system and it works supprisingly but i wouldnt trust it enough to use in combat. For regular noncombat flight it was ok.
i have the Tobii and its great. my big thing was wanting something that didnt have any delay or lag when moving. Tobii has none of that at all so i dont get the sick feeling or headache from it. plus nothing attached to me at all. in SC the eye tracking with head tracking is nice. even if i dont move my head itll turn the camera slightly and it feel natural. head tracking and eye tracking can all be tweaked to your pref in software. u can speed up slow down, set deadzone and saturation limits.
I was literally wondering the best eye tracker setup to get while taking my morning dook, and this pops up - awesome
Went with the Tobii about a month ago and been happy with it.
I only wish it had more functionality within Windows itself but as for as Star Citizen goes, it's great.
I just turn eye tracking off in SC. Seems to also increase the responsiveness of head tracking in SC as well.
I enjoy my Tobii (and the non-gaming benefits are super solid), but I've always felt like the Track IR would be more precise for head tracking, and thought that a combination of TrackIR head tracking with Tobii eye tracking would be optimal. I'm happy to not have the TrackIR hanging off my headphones though.
Great video, really helped my decision making process. Helpful criticism: try not to swallow/click your tongue as audibly and often as you do here because it's a bit much in headphones. New to the channel but loving your content so far ty
The target locking with Tobii is amazing, have you tried it? That alone almost locks me into my Tobii over my TIR5. Having to wear nothing is also nice. I use Tobii with eye tracking (for head movement) off but you can still use the eyes for target selection. Try it that way, when you set it to head only you can crank up the response. The latency is slightly worse but it's bearable. Now if we could get eye gimbals that would be amazing. I don't think it would be stronger then mouse aiming with gimbals. Maybe you can but this bug into some ones ear who matters. :D
Havent tried the tobii but I got trackir5 recently and just got the predator mounts for my sticks and it's pretty sweet so far. I'm also using my thrust master racing pedals as a throttle with joystick gremlin. It all took a fair bit of fiddling around setting everything up but once I did it is quite the experience
I suppose TR5 is more ideal for PVP while TOBII is better for general purpose. Definitely will look into getting the TOBII because from what I see in the comments on their experience, it does seem more ideal for me, since i'm also of the industrial sort, having that situation awareness will be nice and the eye tracker might be pretty neat.
Would have liked to see a comparison with FOIP/ face tracking that comes with the game, as well as DelanClip. Good video otherwise.
That’s not the question, the question that matter is what buy first a eye/head tracker or a flight stick HOSAS?
Can you not disable the eye tracking but keep the head tracking? I’m looking into an head tracker for different games myself. And I used the first TR system that used a modified PS3 camera. But I had too much light pollution so I couldn’t use it. I am kinda attracted to Tobii mainly because you don’t have to wear anything on your head.
I love it how your dad's in the verse..
That must be such a nice thing to have
Can I switch the eye tracking off to just use it as a head tracker.? I really like the idea of the TOBII, but I get migraines if I'm darting my eyes around too much. Would be happy with either option of tracker, but it sounds like the TOBII would be better for my type of gameplay assuming it isn't going to criple me in the process.
I’ve had a TR5 for 4 years or so, the pro-clip is now coming apart being so flimsy as it is. It worked really well in SC, while I never really got it set correctly for DCS World. Best head tracking is still from VR.
What I don't understand is how/why is head movement even a thing? I play on a 34in monitor and it's at the perfect distance that everything on screen is in view, and there's very little else in my periphery. (It's also curved.) I don't need to move my eyes much and I certainly don't noticeably move my head at all. (I'm sure that I do on a microscopic level to some degree.)
Are these systems good enough to detect almost no movement? It seems counterproductive to have to move your head or eyes to view your periphery since that would move you vision away from your screen. It makes sense for VR, just not for having a screen in front of you. I feel like a multi-screen wide angle set-up would be far better suited since then when you look to the side or move your head, you still have a screen in front of you.
I used the Tobii for a while but i had to send it back because i got motion sickness :(. I have no problem with VR but i think i cant get over it, that with head tra king a slight motion of my head translates into a big movement on screen. I also tried track ir with a ps camera years ago for elite with the same Problems... After that video i really ask myself if I'm the only one with these problems?
That's really interesting! I get serious motion sickness in vr, but none using either tobii or headtracking
gotta tweak it to your comfort lvl. i had an oculus rift s and couldnt play anything no matter what i tried plus it was just uncomfortable and messy. tobii worked out the box 10x better and after a few tweaks its perfect
Tried Tobi and can only conclude it did not work because of my glasses because it would not work with them on and it was either track my eyes and work or being able to see the game and it not work!
Tobii is way better. I have both and I even bought a wireless thing for track IR and it’s not worth the wires. And I I feel tobii has been super accurate. The track IR’s software is better as far as settings curves through it though.
The only reason for me to use TR5 is if you are using multi screen setups as Tobii doesn't support that.
TR5 only cares about the position of the LEDs or reflective thing. Nothing else. That is the biggest plus of that system.
But the free look head tracking AND gaze feels so natural. It may not feel as responsive. But it does seem to be less bothering to me.
And Tobii's biggest plus is that it's at least somewhat useful with Windows Hello outside games.
What is best?
Headtracking
Wrong!. Conan, what is best?
To crush their shields, to see them flee before you, and to hear the explosions of their reactors.
Question - How many Qualified Avengers use Tobii?
A few, most are TR5
@@Avenger__One good to know. 2nd question . Do you think your recommendation might change with new flight speeds / model as we are getting slower.
TR5 light pollution.....turn the lights off?
GAZE TARGETING
You can turn off Tobii's eye tracking in SC by dragging the "Input Mix" bar all the way to the right side, also turn off the Gaze Based Target Selection, it will screw up your missile locks. Tobii has a very cool feature is that it lets you log into Window by scanning your face. And IR5 has a lot more games supporting it.
Nice summary of the differences! It's worth mentioning that there are cheaper implementations of TrackIR that achieve the same performance. I use one called DelanClip; a UK based business creating TrackIR kits (which use PS3 Eye camera + an IR headset clip) for pretty cheap (£65 for the wired one, £98 for wireless), that price difference along with the responsiveness made it a no brainer over Tobii for me.
Do you know this one, or heard about it, @Avenger_One ?
what software does it use? the trackir one?
@@mndeg it uses OpenTrack
I second that. Open Track with the DelanClip is amazing. I only started to have issues with the PS3 camera (after some time the signal in OpenTrack become full white). Strangely the day after it works. Not sure what it is exactly. Still for the price, a very good solution.
What anyone looking at head tracking has to remember is they are all just another set of control axis. It is not a natural intuitive system like vr. I'm sure almost anyone could adjust to tobbi's input latency for any play style.
You can disable the eye tracking portion of Tobii by setting the gaze to head tracking ratio slider in the Star Citizen tracking settings to zero for Gaze. I also dislike the eye tracking for flight, and was very happy I could turn it off and just have head tracking.
Also, I've found cranking the tracking sensitivity in the SC settings helped make the Tobii feel more natural at matching my head movement speed. TrackIR is still faster and more responsive, but the Tobii doesn't feel "sluggish" with that tweak. Plus, even with eye tracking at zero, SC still allows you to do eye-based targeting, which is fantastic. I can turn to my right 90 degrees, look at a cluster of targets, and precisely pick out the one I want from it with a single target lock just by looking at it with my eyes, but my eyes darting around never alter the view itself... It's a nice feature, especially in huge org fights with tons of targets.
I like to dabble in everything, but the biggest reason I use Tobii is for the gaze based targeting. I can select a specific target simply by looking at it, and I really like that.
So I have a nice webcam and trackir, is there any way I can do that with either of those? Can track-ir be good enough for that to where I can just select whatever target I'm looking at with that?
@@BrocKelley not as far as I’m aware. I have no experience actually using trackir though, I just heavily researched both before buying Tobii.
Trackir does not do eye tracking so this wouldn't be possible
Thanks Avenger. I personally have both and prefer the Tobii primarily for its eye-tracking ability and not having to physically wear any device for it to work.
I've been able to tune the eye-tracking down to the speed I need to perfectly pinpoint what I'm trying to see. Initially before tuning the eye tracking, it was a bit all over the place and too fast as the human eyes move so quickly and it was hard to focus, or your eyes would move your view too suddenly to almost a blur.
I have my headtracking with Tobii tuned to be pretty fast as you described TR5. With the head moving just as fast as TR5 but being able to get that added pinpoint eye tracking. This allows me to naturally see with my eyes while tracking simultaneously with my head. I don't know how advantageous this would be in PVP but for me, in PVE and other run of the mill type of play in SC, it's wonderful and a necessity.
I have both and I simply prefer the tobi. How easy it is to turn on and get straight into game is perfect for me. Plus I have a few issues moving my mouse so the tobi works nicely in windows with a ability to look at a point on screen and your mouse automatically appears there. Fantastic tool
I like the dive into more varied content outside of purely showing combat, thanks for that.
agreed. one of my favorite videos you did was where you explained how each of the settings impacts piloting and combat and you explained why you set what you set to what you set it to.... say that 5 times fast! anyways i'd love more videos that go into some of the hardware aspects, albeit you might of already done some.
I was gonna say headtracking is still combat related but A1 did mention industry XD Im sure pops is having a much more immersive time with the tracking and stuff while he mines / hauls.. I might have to pick myself up a tracker of some kind.. I tried using a webcam to track my head but its kinda wonky and I gave up on it.
@@MishaDark I mean if we're gonna be pedantic about it, 75% of SC is combat, as far as "complete" gameplay is concerned
@@auburn8833 in Star Citizen: 75% of the time, it’s combat 100% of the time.
While Tobii isn't your preferred device, would you be willing to make a settings video to help others get a feel for the miriad of settings the Tobii has?
I can try, but it might get pushed behind from all the other things I need to build out
@@Avenger__One No problem, just means more training between now and then. 1% better every day.
Karolinger has a good video on what all settings do and his recommended settings.
I bought the Tobii last year because I had a lot of online meetings and didnt want to remove the Headclip every time. Also tobii software makes plug and play very easy (also in other games).
And since I don't need the mega ultra presicion even though I do PvP it is more than enough for me. Highly recommended!
Agreed. I've had a head tracker before and I prefer the tobii.
Tobii hands down. I've used both.
I have owned TR-5 for years before I switched over to Tobii. I would argue that Tobii is just as responsive as TR-5 but it depends on your hardware - specifically your GPU/CPU and your monitor refresh rate. As for eye tracking I don't use it and completely disable it on Tobii.
head tracking is better with TR5 and more adjustable
@@ravennfall6034 I disagree
Good summary of the Track IR 5. I use one and I love it but it's fair to add the following critiques about it:
Track IR 5 is old. There haven't been major updates to the hardware or software.
The hardware, I admit, kiiiiinda sucks. There are two options for the tracking you wear on your head. The default method is the included hat clip. It requires you to wear a hat, and it's cheap garbage. You NEED the pro clip, and the pro clip requires you wear a headset, which I do anyways but maybe that's not appealing to some people. It's also fairly fragile. I've taken really good care of mine over the last 3 years and it's now starting to fall apart and is being held together with tape.
If you forget to run the software before you run your game or the software crashes (which is very rare), you will need to restart your game. It will not work unless you run the software before you run the game you want to use it with.
It's a wired connection. I believe there are ways or products that let you mod it to be wireless, but a wireless option is not included.
Critiques aside, I absolutely love it, and it's simply no longer an option to play Star Citizen without it, at least not until the game supports VR. I even use it for FPS. The software is a little tricky to tune at first but you can get the hang of it pretty easy. If I can do it anyone can do it.
I haven't tried the Tobii, but my friend loves it and even offered to buy one for me. I'm not against it, I find the accessibility of it quite appealing, but the fact is I already have one head tracker and don't need another, and least not until the tape gives out, and even then I STILL might choose the TrackIR5 for the responsiveness you mentioned. Track IR could definitely be better put together but it's still the better option for me personally.
I'm a TOBII user and I'm very happy with it. Not used a Track IR though. But you can disable eye tracking on TOBII if you want just the head movement.
One major Tobii feature I didn't hear you mention is gaze-based target selection. This even allows off-axis missile locking simply by looking at a target (even over your shoulder at someone chasing you). I don't think you can do that with TR5, right?
On Star Citizen you can use your webcam to track your head. Hey cheap webcam of 30 bucks would be the cheapest option to go. And it's possible not as good as. Toby or track 5 but you get what you pay for
Tobii eye tracking really increases my immersion. I never used track ir or face tracking much and I got both a track IR 4 and a tobii (though i'm sure track IR 5 is different) and tobii felt more natural with eye movements added into the tracking as well.
how can you use tobii if it will not fit to your pc?
@@Mulberry2000What do you mean fit to your pc?
You should go over the FOIP head tracking that star citizen has innately
I feel like a cripple without tobii on... hard to believe I was playing 5 years without it.
You missed a really good feature of Tobii - targeting based on what you are looking at. It is amazing.
Nice differentiation video!
Could you go over the trackir 5 motion adjustments in a future video? I just use the default profile atm but figure I could dial it in better if I knew exactly what I'm doing.
oh, bing shilling!
Ohh, one other thing that I found to be a problem with TR5 for me and my setup, is that on bright and sunny days it would at times make my TR5 skip or lag in the head tracking. Sometimes, because of where my rig is set up, I couldn't use the TR5 because it would be all over the place due to interference.
I've never had that problem with Tobii.
I use a trackhat for the past... 5-6 years. Bought one, never broke on me, works good, and was about 40ish bucks xd love that thing
Am I looking at the wrong places? I went to compare them myself but it seems like the Tobii Eye Tracker 5 was sitting around $280-$300, and the TIR 5 was around $150-$170 (depending on clip option). We’re they really close in price just 5 months ago? Why is it seemingly $100+ more for Tobii now?
Ah, see, now this makes sense. I've been wondering why I suck at PVP still; it turns out it's just because I'm using a Tobii. Totally clears things up...
...
...time to go get my 1% in. ^^;
Track IR is head-tracking.
Tobii is head + EYE tracking. That right there, for me, wins - hands down.
Track IR has the better responsiveness. Tobii has the overall better experience / features, but yes, some folks will prefer Track IR's responsiveness.
I use a large screen tv as a monitor and sit back 7 feet back from the monitor. I know there is some technical limitations on using the head trackers from that distance. Have you had any experience in this?
I picked up the Tobii for all the pro's that were mentioned. However, I dont really see responsive problems with the Tobii. It is more than responsive enough for me. But perhaps I am just not quick enough in combat to notice lag :D
I don't get lag either but am close to small monitor. I've also compared it on the same set up to other options. I wonder if monitor size and distance makes a difference
Honestly the reason I went with Tobii was that I don't always have a headset on. Minimalist fan and I am more like your dad where I am a fan of the industrial side of the game but don't shy away from a little pvp. I do have an issue with the Tobii that you didn't come across. I do have to reset the Tobii from time to time. Not often but sometimes ill do something and bam outa whack but I have it hot-keyed and its easy to reset it. It does take some getting used to the eye tracking as well and I normally have it set way down. Anyhow great video man.
Yah brother I love my tobii. I use it for dcs and star citizen and flight sim. It’s great for all of them and I bring it with me on the road so on my laptop or desktop I have head tracking.
I am ITCHING for the tobii eye tracker but I kinda want a new version "Tobii eye tracker 6?" Cus it has been out for a while now.
This is exactly the experience I had with tobii. The delay of the headtracking is simply too high. I always hoped that it would get better with future updates of the Tobii software, but it didn't. The eyetracking works very fast - almost perfect for me, so I don't understand why the headtracking function is so slow.
I've used both on the same set up and don't get the delay but that is being very close to a small monitor so maybe that makes a difference.
A lot of people don't get tobii dialed in right which makes a difference tho
@@UncleBenjs yea exactly you really have to spend a lot of time to get the settings right and once you do you don’t notice any issues like delay
Tobii has a dead zone setting for head movement that might create some delay.
I disabled the eye tracking completely in Tobi in almost every game that I play. It is very disorienting as it shifts the view around when I don't need it to.
I was worried about the eye movement as well, but you can fine tune the sensitivity and speed of both head and eyes so that they are as fast or slow as you need it to be. I found a healthy mix for mine.
I did too.
What were the settings you used?
@@alc2672 ruclips.net/video/yQv8Q7AYQYQ/видео.html
Huh, interesting. I have to reset my tobii quite often, but then, I do sit quite far from it, maybe that's the problem.
Also, for tobii, you can set it to only track your head movement in SC. I mean, it still tracks your eyes, and can be annoying when targeting or missile locking, but "vision movement" based on your eyes can be disabled.
Tobii all the way, had a TR5 but never used it and then got thrown in a box. I love my Tobii it's better in everyway.
Your right about the immersion I'm using tracker IR5 with a motion platform spent a few days with out either one and my experience felt off disconnected almost
I have a Tobbi but I am M&K and I honestly have used it a few times and never used it since. It's still sitting there attached to my PC. I will just have to wait and see for the future I guess if I get some sticks.
Great summary of both systems. I use Tobii and ended up turning of Gaze. But you still get the option to use gaze for target select. I played around with using facetrackNoIR and using the TrackIR selection in game in stead of Tobii. You loose the eye tracking completely but the head tracking can be a little more responsive.
People sleep on delan clip too much
Delanclip with open track is a great and cheap setup (and quite responsive)
It's basically the same as TrackIR. Just a different clip. It doesn't have its own tracker, but is compatible with TrackIR and OpenTrack
Nice breakdown A1. I use a Tobii and love it, but I have experienced situations where the eye tracking portion is troublesome. Like while locking missiles if you look down at the MFDs the missile lock ring starts to degrade. I've learned to cope with it because I love the gaze targeting... Being able to lock, and fire missiles backwards with the rear view camera is really fun.
I run the slider that divides eye/head tracking emphasis all the way to the right so that the Tobii is essentially functioning as a head tracker only. The same thing kept happening to me, a glance down at a hud would upset my lock.
I had a TR5 but too much wiring and at the end I had a cable snap. Went to Tobii 4 then 5 and I love it in SC and other sims (FS, DCS, ...).
I use Tobii with the eye tracking for target selection. Love it.
Great video as always. I can't remember my exact tobii settings, but I'm like 95-99% head tracking, 1-5% eye tracking. Pretty sure it's a 99-1 split. Hope they can work on the lag (its not noticeable in most gameplay)
am at 5 min into the video and im thinking "my god why would you want the TR5 then?"
You can simply turn off eye tracking by gaze setting to level it 0
TR5 - gotta launch it's software BEFORE launching SC.
Not sure about Tobii.
100% agree - EITHER system will change your game.
nope dont have to do anything at all.
Fun timing, I literally bought the Tobii yesterday 😅
This is a really common question, great to have a video to direct people to. Also, who was that flying that beautiful bucc :D
I swear, just recently I thought about this and wondered what the differences are. I definitely want one, I guess I'll wait for a good deal to get either.
Thanks!
Hey, Avenger One. Im eyeballing this Grass Monkey Monkey King Puck. Its wireless and It seems to have great reviews comparing it to track iR. As it claims to have 240 hz and .24 latency which puts its performance above the tr5. Have you looked at this product? What are your thoughts.
Never heard of it
@@Avenger__One I grabbed one ill let you know honestly if its butter smooth. Not that you know me from a hole in the wall but ill let you guys know anyways.
Also thanks for all the Videos that you have produced they have helped a lot in the Dog Fighting category which is my favorite thing to do in the verse.
i see a lot of Potential for Tobii 5 epscially if they can make interact modes feel more fluid by having buttons a little bigger in some cases and allow focus eye intteractions maybe even pre-emptive player animations
That sure was a dashing bucc pilot in this video!
Have you tried using gimbals with eye-tracking?
Not effective
@@Avenger__One Thanks!
I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but a big disadvantage of the tobii is the size of screen it works with. I try to use mine , head tracking only, with a 80" screen so It sits on my desk. It kinda works, but not ideal and you get no eye tracking with anything larger than a 34" screen.
Does anyone know the effective range of each system? I play on the sofa with a 57" screen, I'm about 1.8m away.
the eye tracking on the tobii only supports up to a 27" screen. i have it on a 32" curved and it works. the 52", and more then 3' of distance i'm assuming is going to not fly.
If I was you I wouldn't bother with it. Playing on a 57-in TV your frame rates are crap and I don't believe you would get much improvement out of a device like this.
@@Metro2Metro Obvs you're unaware of 120hz 4k TV's . . . .
@@MrRivsta What's the input lag on those? Best I've found so far are 12+ m/s which is way too high for gaming :(
@@BosieRUclips I'm using a Philips Momentum 55'' 120hz with 4ms. Works great.
Can you use both at the same time? it would be the best of both worlds. You could turn your head and look lol.
Not sure
Thanks for the info
Can you take down intell you get a sponsorship and discount code. Because you sold me on it.
I do not have a code unfortunately but I'm sure there are a few out there
Have you tried freetrack? It should be a good solution for the more economic minded
Not as of yet
How do you account for the monitor being in a fixed place but phisically pointing your face away from it? How exaggerated of a movement do you have to make to move your in game head? Is it 1:1? Or does a slight glance turn your head 45 degrees?
These things have been my major concern with either system and why I just want to wait for true VR, but willing to be convinced.
It's not bad at all, you get used to it and it feels natural
The dead zone for head movement as well as the ratio and extents of movement is customizable.
As I have used both: TrackIR 5 needs a dark space and no light pollution as you said, but Tobii is the opposite, it needs light to see your eyes and even the shape of your head. It does not work well in a dark environment. By dark I mean only light coming from you monitor.
TR5 is better at zooming than Tobii. Tobii is not eye glasses friendly unlike TR5. The reflections from your glasses can interfere with Tobii but do not affect TR5. Tobii however eliminates cabling issues which is par for the course with TR5. And I have to reset Tobii ALL the time. Head position matters when it comes to re-centering Tobii. However, there are several settings in Star Citizen that can auto-center Tobii. Tobii also has a floating problem even if you disable eye tracking, your facial expressions can cause Tobii to move by itself even if you do not move your head position. (i.e. eye brow raising, or exaggerated neck/jaw movements)
TR5 is better at snapping to center point than Tobii which eliminates floating issues when looking forward. And yes you are right TR5 is more responsive, there is an input delay with Tobii that for someone like me who is very sensitivity to response times there is a noticeable delay. Truthfully been debating about going back to TR5 myself.
Thanks for your insights. For me it would have been more rounded if you'd compared to the built in head tracking via webcam which is what I'm currently using. I can tell that how well my face is lit has an effect on it. What I don't know is how responsive the head tracking is (when set up well) compared to the tr5 and Tobi.
Yours would be the most valued opinion on this.
Agreed, and once I left the cables behind with my TR-5, its been a more enjoyable experience
i need vr, dont care for head tracking.. )
I´m using Tobii for a year now in DCS and SC. From the comfort factor and for casual gameplay it is just perfect. But i have some problems with it were tobii is allways recognizing head movement even if i´m sitting 100% still. This makes it for example impossible to shoot the gun where you look at in the AH-64D in DCS. And if i´m sitting to close to the monitor it has difficulties to recognize my eye movment in the upper corners. don´t know if other people experience this behaviour aswell.
you can adjust the sensitivity using the software, and why are you so close to the monitor that your out of view range of tobii.. you have to be breathing right on the screen cause my eye sight sucks so tent to get close but not so much that tobii cant track me.. move back or adjust the angle of the tobii so it points up higher.
Great video. You forgot to mention you can turn off eye tracker and use 100% head. I use 97:3 so that the eye tracking has minimal effect.
True, but TR5 is still more responsive
No argument there
I love my Tobii, it took me a while to really get the many settings really dialled in but once I did it feels great