Universal Basic Income + Videogames
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
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Josh Strife Says is the official Twitch clips/Highlights channel for Josh Strife Hayes. This channel features Best Moments of Josh Strife Hayes, Best of Tangent Tavern Podcast with Callum Upton and sometimes clips from Session Zero DND Group which Josh DM's (Dungeonmaster) for players RageDarling, BillieTrixx and Callum Upton. Josh often talks about multiple MMORPGS like World of Warcraft (WoW), Final Fantasy XIV (FFXIV), Guild Wars 2 (GW2), Runescape (RS3), Old School Runescape (OSRS), New World, Diablo, Path of Exile, Tera, Otherland and other games such as Skyrim, Oblivion, Dragon Age. Some of the best content of Josh Strife Hayes is his React videos with Asmongold reacts and Zepla.
Visit Josh's Main channel for "The Worst MMO Ever"-series and second channel for "Was it good?"-series
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Came for economic knowledge, left with medieval warfare tactics.
Will definitely make my spiral staircase for right handed
What josh is quoting is wrong. The reason stairs are uneven is due to wear. If the enemy would be in your castle already you'd 1-not go to the higher levels and 2-be fucked.
@chukyuniqul the wear is on the stone slab but not the actual steps done uneven.
Left with esoteric cartoon knowledge.
@@chukyuniqul this, also only about 30% of the remaining spiral staircases from that time are oriented that way, so that's part is wrong too
"My father studied military tactics, so that I could study economics, so that my son could study art"
I feel that it would still be important for the lessons of those from before to still be handed down.
There may still come a time when you will need to defend what you hold dear, so learning from your grandparent of war is crucial and the value of what you have been handed.
And from your parent, learn how the economy functions, so that you may avoid the pitfalls that come your way and not squander the opportunities you were provided.
Because arguably, the statement you've made can apply to people who have been born with silver spoons in their mouth... And we all know what happens when they dedicate their entire lives to art, and nothing to common sense.
@@highwindknightYou act as if soldiers teach their children to be soldiers. I’ve grown up surround by Vietnam veterans and I’ll tell you seeing my uncle grab an Asian man by the throat and try and strangle him as a kid was not a good life lesson.
I just wonder how many will get that reference ^^
@@pannoncannonPretty good life lesson. Don't randomly allow immigration when you're sending people abroad for some free PTSD
@@illegalopinions4082 an actual life lesson for you. Two wrong don’t make a right, and using one to dismiss another is idiotic.
"I had to endure this so you have to endure it also". I heard this mentioned as a reason why higher ranking female officers bully new female military personnel in the army. They were harassed when they joined, so the newcomers must also be harassed and suffer. It's such a horrible mindset, and it's in many places done by people who just want to see others suffer because they did.
Maybe the suffering helped make them the leaders they became
@@robertmarlow6674 it did not
@@robertmarlow6674oh it did. But they would have been better without it.
@@robertmarlow6674yeah, that's the problem. They are worse leaders because of the suffering, and because they feel the need to impart that suffering on others.
Bullying in this case is a good filter for people that can't hack it. Good to run home and quit before someone's life is on the line. Better to panic and quit than panic and empty 4 clips into a house because you saw a gun.
I feel like there's so many people out there who are struggling with basic expenses, they don't even have the time to just sit down and think about what their passion could even be...
100% this. This world forces people to live in a situation where they never have the time or means to consider what they want from life. Theyre simply expected to be a productive member of society for the benefit of a world that they didn't ask to be part of.
Self-Expression is the step after survival. Survival is unfortunately what people are stuck in until they are old and grumpy.
The system works. Pit the poor against the other poor under the promise that they will soon be rich.
@@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece Yep, the system isn't flawed, it's not malfunctioning, it's working precisely how it was intended to.
Yup. Don't think, just make your boss richer.
“I get paid double you did.”
“Yeah that makes sense, everything is twice as expensive.”
when people use arguments against UBI like "nobody wants to be a garbageman" what they're really saying is "we don't pay garbagemen what they're worth"
Those people don't know how much garbage men are being paid.
Friend just started last year making 6 figures.
@@freedomscale2957 nah, i just think that the people saying they don't want to be garbagemen, don't say that because they're not interested but because they think that job is beneath them in terms of dignity
We do pay garbagemen what they're worth though. Literally any relatively healthy grown male can do the job, which is why the pay is low. Basic supply and demand. The supply of healthy adult males with limited intelligence/skills is huge, therefore you can pay them a relatively small amount for a very shitty job. If they don't like it there are always more men willing to take their place. If however the option to not work and get a similar income is present, most people will take that over dealing with other peoples trash.
The supply of college graduates to do crappy office jobs that require a degree however is MUCH smaller and thus you HAVE to pay them more or you won't have the staff you need. Again, supply and demand. Be interesting to see where this ends up with AI though, as a huge proportion of those office jobs will soon be better performed by an AI that costs little to operate and maintain.
@@Birdhatter To sleep on? Don't you have any knowledge about Dragon anatomy?
@NMG.11 and ironically all those garbagemen will have mountains of more money that they will spend of much nicer things than those people who complain.
"Nobody would do garbage collection under UBI" They most definitely would if it paid more than the UBI.
Such a bad example lol. Waste management is generally a decent paying job. Trash is just the epitome of undesirable material so people automatically think of that
I might be wrong but I believe the whole point of UBI is you always get it even if you have other income? It doesn't just go away when you start working? So working would still be a means to earn more money than not working.
@@Valarien010 No, you're right. That's why it's *Universal* Basic Income. Universal meaning everyone gets it no matter what. It's not an unemployment check it's a "you exist" check.
@@ansalem12 Okay just with how it was talked about by this comment and replies I was confuzzled.
@@Valarien010 Yeah, most people who talk about UBI seem to not even know the most basic things about it. But they sure do have strong opinions about it.
So it's pretty much like every other topic that way.
Just remember that income, or money in general, is just a tool to obtain what we need and desire. The premise of UBI is to alleviate the stress and tension of being unable to meet necessities. To get more than necessities and to go to desirable events/ vacations or obtain desirable objects, people will still need to work. Some people will choose to work the necessary jobs for society if the pay incentives are appropriate. Others may choose to have less money but work for a passion. A few may become minimalists and do next to nothing. Their desired event is simply free time, which the required expense is the cost of living.
I think the problem lies in people not wanting to pay taxes that goes to other people who they believe won't do anything productive. Especially because they did not receive such a benefit when they were younger. They are just fine with 50% of our budget being thrown into the military slush funds used to bomb innocent kids in other countries though.. because they do not see it. They think UBI means people will take that money and buy TVs and games and change nothing.. which many would do. But buying products is also good for the economy so I think it is an overall plus. America is a consumer nation.. and little by little people are buying less because they have less money.. leading to a shrinkage of consumerism.. which shrinks the economy. This will be a problem in the future.
Open a history book dumbass
In other words they want to live of your pockets and give you NOTHING in return... 😔
@@IsAcRafT they don't get anything in return that nobody else does either - effectively bed and board only, which imo should be the bare fucking minimum
A big thing is that employers currently have one main option to get basic labour - pay enough that employees can survive. In a society of UBI they have 2 options - pay enough to tempt people in, or make the job desirable enough to tempt people in, or a mixture of the two
i love the fact that theres deeper conversations being had in a osrs stream than most governments around the world lul
Because govts don't want you to know about ubi for obvious reasons
I think you meant hate*
They're important conversations, but I'd worry if this one counts as a deep dive
its strange to hear him say "I don't know enough to have a valid opinion on it" in an era where everybody is completely opinionated about everything they know literally nothing about
If you're privy to the deliberations of most governments around the world how come you aren't using your influence to change this? Clearly you have time to watch youtube videos and leave comments, how about fixing the Venezuelan economy for our fellow gamers?
I spent the first few months of covid trying to find a place where I could still work and ended up at an Amazon warehouse where no one was even following covid safety procedures. We had large batches of people get really, really sick and have to leave work to go back to sitting at home unpaid for several weeks anyway. After a few months I decided to leave for my own health and safety, sat around for a month, then started doing photojournalism to document and tell local stories about the pandemic and how small businesses were coping. It launched me into doing photography full time just a couple years later. I did that without UBI, because in the US they figured a single time $2000 payment would be good enough to survive on despite the world literally collapsing. I'm saying this because UBI, if it existed in the US, would've made me realize that I could do my own thing much earlier in life and I could have set this business up in my early 20s and have had a much better quality of life than what I've put myself through. There is value in what I do now, people appreciate my work. I don't feel like a number on the assembly line to a big corporation. There is value to having a population that is happy and financially secure.
Nope. You wouldn't have found the value, you maybe would have been find taking pictures. You're where you are because of Capitalism not in spite of it. You had a thing you liked doing, but that wasn't enough. You had to do it to provide value to people. Then people give you the money which they obtain providing other value to society. If its all just free paper, then there's no need to do anything to provide value.
The biggest problem however, is while your dream works great for "taking pictures", it works terribly for Amazon Warehouses and Amazon Delivieries, I assume you do most of your shopping there? It does really terrible for shoveling crap, plumbing, electrical, sanitation, food services. You know what happens if no one wants those jobs? We all starve.
But it's ok, you'll be busy as you'll have a lot of starvations, suffering, crime and anarchy to take pictures of. I hope you're happy doing it for nothing, because all the paper in the world won't buy you a decent meal.
@@sladewilson9741 mate, free market capitalism almost killed her, because Amazon values money more than health and safety of their workers
Experiences are different.. also greatly depends on which state you lived in during the covid. Mine was free open. No one had trouble looking for jobs. Lots were still working. While the state next to me was on full dictatorship lockdown. For me personnel tho, I have more financial trouble now than I did during covid. Things were actually cheaper and food for a family was easily affordable. Now it's lots of OT and plasma donations just to feed the family and gas while work covers other expenses.
It is what it is
@@sladewilson9741 Yes goy, slave away for the big corpos, you wouldn't want to starve, right? Get back to work, we ain't paying you $8.00 per hour to sit around!
@@xDaedron So while you're all practicing your freedom, who's feeding you and bringing you all that crap you want to buy with free money? Maybe you'll get yourselves some slaves to do it? And Amazon didn't almost kill her you pussy, they got sick. And no one ever in their whole life ever forced you to go to work for Amazon. They do that in Communist countries. China killed a lot of old and sick people. You know, the authoritarian "communists"
i dont think itll make a big difference (in gaming), if anything it takes the edge off of so many peoples lives that they no longer gravitate towards games as a way to cope and actually think about what theyre interested in, less gambling, less drugs, less gacha, more room for gaming to return to a hobby and in turn more inspired titles
that's cute you have so much copium when people get free and use it for good
the Prevalence of gaming is solely because it's WAY CHEAPER on dollar per hour of entertainment than going on trips, to the movies, or to amusement parks. If mundane everyday middle and lower class had more money, you could actually see a decrease in the numbers of people gaming all day to pass the time
@@iller3 I don't think that would be true. Sure, in SOME areas we would, but there's so many who wou;d continue to spend a lot. There's people who would LOVE to spend more, but can't because of their job. An how many people would buy MORE games to play, because they'd have more TIME to play like during the Pandemic? You're also forgetting about how much easier it would be to justify buying games you might never play, which was something I was doing before I got into too much Debt from College an other stuff.
@@TheAyanamiRei I like gaming. A lot. I've always played shitloads of videogames. The more money I am getting as an adult however, the more I realize that I can actually do other, ALSO fun things outside of them. I still play a lot but I also do other things. I go to a fairly cheap spa that's close to me (HIGHLY recommend going to a sauna, super chill), watch shows with friends, have barbecues with em which used to be way too expensive but are now achievable easily...
So I actually agree with @iller3 at least personally. Having more money means I get to try other things outside of think "Ok if this game costs 20 bucks and I can play it for 1000 hours why buy another lololol". I do also buy more diverse games but I also still find games that I just sink dozens of hours into. So my buying of games didn't change THAT much.
It will probably make a difference in gaming, games will go from 60-70 dollars to probably 100.
There was a saying that went:
"My profession is military so my son can study politics if he wants to.
My profession is politics so my son can study art if he wants to."
Or something like that, which tells about the whole thing about making life easier for next generations.
"My profession is politics so my son can get rejected from artschool and start a genocide"
Yeah. That's the extent of it. There is an even older saying that goes something along the lines of:
"A good society is when old men plant trees whose shade they will never enjoy."
Unfortunately there's way too many people who believe the "good times create weak men" crap and will listen to that advice first
After working full time for a couple of years and then going back to school to get a degree, after a year I dropped the job to focus on studies and faced my first summer without any job in years. Just like the childhood years.
And the first 2 weeks were AWESOME.
And the 3rd was great.
And the 4th one was... well. Around that mark I started feeling like I was wasting time. I'd played the games I wanted to play, I'd watched the shows I'd wanted to watch.
My friends were busy with their own jobs.
And i just started feeling restless, and a bit guilty, guilty that I wasn't doing anything useful for myself. Yeah taking breaks is useful but I'd had my break. I was just.. doing nothing.
I can't speak for everyone, but I definately wouldn't be able to sit around leasurly for ever. I'd find something to do. And UBI isn't "money to do anything with" it's "money to cover basic needs with". So what better thing to do with my time than *more* money so I can do more things. Like more travels, more restaurants, more games. It wouldn't replace employement unless you're content with just surviving.
This is a good argument for why we don't need a UBI as there are inherent benefits to working. Giving people money would likely cause many people to quit lower paid positions and thus would decrease the total number of jobs available as companies would be forced to automate. This would lead to an overall decrease in the number of total jobs which would mean less total work and thus less opportunities to be productive which may lead to an decrease in personal fulfillment
You're basically describing the initial warning signs in the "entropy induced depression of the great Mouse Utopia". ...It's partly because mammals have a metabolism which depends on them always doing something and finding new _territory_ to expand into
@@drewvergus9433 do you think it's bad to automate and to have more jobs that contribute more than just "repeat this 500 times per day"? Cause I'd argue these people would be able to learn something with their time and potentionally do something that contributes more
@@SirMalorak Where are those folks on UBI you're talking about? As far as I'm aware, there were only limited forms of UBI in model projects so far, but the real thing has not been implemented anywhere.
@@sascharambeaud1609there is welfare systems in place at least in some countries that pays really poor people that don't have any work. But that is a very small percentage of all poor people.
Honstly, if I had basic income guaranteed then I'd go back to college, never got a career change I wanted because I have to keep working.
Except inflation would mean you cant buy a loaf of bread. Also you will lose all freedom of speech in return.
Yeah, I think a great argument for basic income is that in this age of robots and automation and AI, one person making a critical innovation is more valuable than a thousand people flipping burgers.
If it was available... I don't even know if I'd accept it, but I'd definitely benefit from it because the people I'd be taking commissions and patreon money from would likely have actual disposable income and therefore would be more generous
@@HelloWorld-cq1sq There is no valid argument for it, sorry. It will be horror on Earth. It's total centralised control. of course people can dream about it but fantasies should stay fantasies.
You'd still have to pay for college, whose prices would rise because there's be more demand from people like you
If we had UBI I would be doing roughly the same as I'm doing now (trainee accountant), but with a bit more control over when and where I work. I think UBI, if it's pulled off, would be very beneficial to everyone except those who like to exploit others
The state you would be trusting not to use UBI as a means for tyrannical control would be the same government that exploits more people than anything else.
have fun when literally nothing changes, and especially gonna be fun when ubi doesn't scale with inflation and becomes useless less than 2 years after being introduced. People think it's gonna help. Spoiler alert: IF YOU BELIEVE THIS, YOU ARE, IN FACT, A LITERAL RETARD
I've been trying to get into 3D modelling because I discovered my passion in software. The problem is that I need money and massive amounts of time to push it forward. I can work part time, that solves the time issue. The problem is the money part. The US isn't built for people to have safety nets while they pursue something, it's built on risking everything you own on Gold Rush type of situations, bubble type of situations.
Everything I'm trying to do, my passion, is literally to just create things for other people, that's what 3D modelling is.
If people think we would live without art, they're just short sighted. Literally everything you look at was created from an art sketch: cars, buildings, clothes, games, toys, boats, adverts, everything.
Fuckers are literally watching an actor who talks about video games. This channel is nothing BUT art.
As a 3d printer enthuastic who now has more printers than other appliences put togehter i whole hearthily wish you learn the skill!
"If a society cannot build itself to a stable position where art can be explored and created, what is the point?" God I agree so much with this! Thank you for your thoughts Josh! If we do universal income, I think it is important to also educate people on how to handle it. Like, it's easy to slip into lethargy if you don't have a steady job or such structuring of the day. We'll need support in these things. I also think low-level jobs are the ones that will be vacated the most, like we see a lot in the aftermath of the COVID pandemic. Thankfully, these are easiest to automate. I wonder if the uptick in AI evolution will make this transition to universal income more easy in this regard.
I wrote my Bachelors Thesis about this topic, there are longrunning instances of UBI to a semi- base fulfilling need in the US (Mainly in Cherokee Land and Alaska) that make peoples lives way less stressfull and save a lot of money also, e.g. bc less youth criminality bc parents have more time educating them, less crime in general bc people get along better, less unemployment bc people work fewer hours, so more people are in the workforce for the same work etc.
Shame it wasnt a PHD you may have not forgotten to talk about inevitable inflation.
@@Garycarlyle wasnt mentioned in the data i had, so no.
@@RandomBeing I dont mean to be rude. Just government don't do anything to be nice. There will be serious strings attached.
A few questions about that: What are the sample sizes? How long was the period of study? What was the control group? Demographic information? Is it a closed system? How does fit/interact with the American and/or global economy? Can these changes be attributed to other factors? And a bunch of statistics questions in regards to the sample data like mean, median, outliers, correlation coefficient etc.
Just to have a little more context and to get a better idea about scalability, contributing factors etc.
@@4.1132 unfortunately, the data availability wasn't that great or even not existing on these things. If I have the time I see if I can link some sources.
Economics is extremely hard because tons of variables and tons of parameters, quite a bit of psychology and loads of math, all of which try to condense millions of decisions into something comprehensible. It’s one of the reasons why universal basic income hasn’t ever been implemented because the results are very unpredictable and its negative effects could do substantial harm to people living in that economy.
There are multiple welfare programs in most countries, however they’re always conditional. Giving unconditional money could have lots of different effects from labor and employment (possibly also demographics) to pricing and inflation to economic growth and cost. That’s before getting into the ethics of it all. Everything in economics is connected, so economic policies can introduce a great number of ripple and side effects. Ideally they’re done with extreme care and a good plan. It’s just very complex.
Josh is very entertaining but yeah definitely not an economist 😅
Edit: Misery thy name is autocorrect as it had eaten the word “done” for some reason 😞
A sensible comment. I'll just sit next to you and not say anything.
Agreed. I support ubi, but like others in this comment section, it should be given with stipulations as ways to cover basic expenses rather than being able to be will nilly spending it. Imo, it could possibly reduce the stress many feel when they are trying to budget for life and building generational wealth to pass down to kids or whomever. I will say tho that ppl in here stating UBI will make ppl lazy is just wrong imo. Humans naturally love to be social and work (if it’s a healthy workplace) provides a form of socialization that fulfills us in a way. Tho, there is some credence to their claims of worker laziness as it seems more ppl in my generation, gen z, want to be more offline or more separate from society which results in them isolating themselves in various ways. But ultimately, UBI will never be put in place in a country like the US as politicians and intellectual think tanks funding by pro-capitalist politicians or corporations saying it’s communism and it’s going to kill us all.
I will say another thing tho that I think we would also require a paradigm shift relating to how we in the US are massive and toxic consumers. Idk. I love economics and history, but these conversations are so nuanced as u referenced. Still, UBI should be tried on a basic expense level in some way.
The actual last thing for this comment, Ik someone might indirectly or directly respawn saying how would we get the money? Well, first, raise taxes on the very rich. The percentage of income tax for some of the riches in the US is around 40 percent which barely taxes anything when considering someone is making for example, 40 million a year would be around 16 million. That’s most likely not a realistic number when including different forms of tax breaks and being that rich ur able to move ur money internationally with ease or invest it into other things. Second, cut back spending on the surveillance state and our defense spending. Our defense spending alone is officially a trillion in the US and a report from I think last year reported that around 50 or 60 percent of defense spending money isn’t tracked (which is fucking insane btw). Third, stop giving corporations tax breaks when it comes to certain forms of industry as, even a capitalist would agree, it poisons the market.
These are just suggestions and are more complicated in subject and prolly in practice. Sorry for a rant of a comment, but it’s thought provoking shit.
@@itsmedjoom987
Just gonna refer you to the International Labour Organization and their papers on the subject. There are also multiple studies that indicate diminishing returns for certain populations and demographics, noting that for communities under the poverty line or afflicted by other negative factor tend to benefit whereas population that are nore affluent tend to either show little to no change or show negative social impacts, which leads to the conclusion that targeted welfare programs are much more effective.
There have also been multiple suggestions on funding, however they often run into problems particularly in regards to higher taxes on higher income as people are not bound to countries.
Again though economic inequality and wealth distribution is a topic far to complex for a RUclips comment section.
I personaly like working. It feels good to be chalenged and tomake something.
But what i don't like is my boss treating me like crap because I depend on working for him.
OSRS Video - Talking about Sociatal Change - Tagged as GW2.
Perfect.
The truth is only a fraction of the available workforce is needed to sustain society. The vast majority works in quality of life services. And most of them probably spend half their 8 hour shifts twiddling their thumbs than being actually productive. If you gave everyone of them basic income and shorten their shifts to 4 hours they could rotate more often and be more effective during their short shifts.
I think reducing work days by half is quite extreme but it is an interesting point. It's also interesting that studies had found people to have more weekly output when worker fewer hours.
Envy and Jelousy that is what our current society works.
They don't care about other people as long as they make themselves feel better. _"Mine is better than yours, I deserved better."_ This is what I always saw from people everywhere.
It has always been like that.
@@sixthcairn it is much worst than before tbh.
Ive done stonework on some castles, the point josh makes about uneven steps is completely true. If you are invading a castle at night good luck getting up those stairs they are all odd sized and some are even a whole knee step up.
If the enemy is already in your castle you're fucked. If the enemy is already in your castle, you will not fucking run to the higher positions. Both you and josh are making assumptions and stating them as fact.
Stoneworking skill level?
@@shroomer3867 stone waller, worked with masons. lvl 91 only half way =(
@@666evo666 Keep going at it, grind it out and you'll be at 99 in no time.
Yeah! That's by design, because even IF you can see it during the Day, you're NOT used it to. You'll be focusing Time & Concentration AWAY from fighting and on keeping your balance. Meanwhile the Castle Soldiers who go up those stairs day in and day out year after year....they do NOT have to spend anywhere NEAR that level of Time & Concentration moving up and down the stairs. Honestly, it's a rather brilliant additional defense.
I don't think it's just jealousy. In my own experience, the older generation would be far more tolerant of free college than they would be of paying off loans already taken out. A lot of these arguments come out not because they're well thought out, but because in the moment, it's a quick and cathartic answer that comes from a place of pride. But in the moment, people don't think out complex answers to complex questions.
I'd agree, and to add on to this: There's a HUGE psychological difference between people getting to go to college/university for free in the future, and people having existing loans paid off.
The first is a general betterment of society. Yes, I might have had to pay for college, and it was stupid expensive. I can easily recognize that NOT having students come out of school in massive debt is a good thing, since I know how difficult it was myself.
The second situation, however, appears more to people as some people getting free money, while others don't get anything. If they get their student loans paid off, why shouldn't non-student loans *also* get (at least partially) paid off as well? Debt is debt, if you're paying off peoples' debt to make society better, then everyone should have their debts paid off.
What makes existing student loans more important than, say, medical debt? Getting in an accident and being in the hospital for even 1-2 weeks can often create massively debilitating debt for a lot of people, sometimes far in excess of what people might accrue from student loans. Why should that not be forgiven in the same manner?
There are certainly some people who have the "I paid my loans, so you should have to as well" sort of poisonous mentality. As SoverineSR puts it, though, I imagine that for most people, that is often just the knee-jerk reaction answer for this type of problem. It is less about jealousy, and more about perceived - and, really, somewhat accurate - inequality in the solution that makes people reject it.
Why is college such a necessity for most jobs? I had to get a degree for my job, and I can tell you I learned absolutely nothing doing it. Though I was already qualified and they lined the position up for me, just corporate had this stupid degree requirement for the position so I fast tracked it.
Free college is a terrible idea. Teachers should be paid. Tools and facilities should be paid for. And the people paying for them should be the people making use of them.
This has nothing to do with jealousy but everything to do with the terrible consequences. Education quality will plummet. And has plummeted.
Teachers get paid peanuts. Nobody wants to do it anymore. Standards are going down. Not to mention everyone just ships their kids off to college when literally learning a trade like plumbing has a much higher chance of landing a well paying job right now.
Meanwhile college graduates are somehow too stupid to tie their own shoelaces.
@@AeriFyrein Medical debt? Found the US.
@@Dharengo You think people in countries where taxes are used to pay for colleges, at least partially, work for free? I guess your parents should have put a few more cents into your college fund.
UBI can come in many forms. In Brazil we had a very successful program called Bolsa Família (smth like 'family income') which mobilised a bunch of sectors due to its conditionals: moms would receive the money, and kids HAD to stay in school where there were free meals sourced from local producers. Basically, parents would worry less about feeding their kids, kids wouldn't worry about skipping school to work, and it incentivised local farmers. Basic income+parents with more time+public education (meaning less child labor) drastically reduced Brazil's misery rates. It's not just about giving away cash, it's about addressing a nation's particular issues of extreme poverty and wealth distribution. Of course, being part of peripheral capitalism, we can't have nice things for too long or it may look like we're daring to try and be a tad more than the backyard of unrestricted imperialism.
There is also a UBI in the states. Specifically Alaska. It’s called the Permanent Fund Dividend, with its main goal of reducing the effects of poverty.
Because poverty is still pretty high in Alaska (and ignoring the politicking these last few years) people would assume the program is a failure, but it’s actually a mark of success. Cause if you chart poverty rates and remove the effect of the PFD *it would be much higher without it.*
@@maallos334mi8 This rhetoric is very common around here to make the case for privatization of public services and retraction of work-related rights. I hope you guys are able to keep your UBI going. ⭐
@@HenriqueRLima-vz7ny Thanks, we are really trying to hold on.
Here's the problem, you don't just implement something like UBI and have it not have an adverse affect on the market itself. The money has to come from somewhere, look at the inflation that we're dealing with just from giving every eligible person in the U.S. COVID stimulus. That money wasn't free and we're paying for it now.
Where do you think money comes from?
The Federal Reserve & US Mint....and other incorporated, chartered banks & credit companies....So since currency is made up as a....WORK OF ART, it is limitless, ipso facto, the only inflation that can exist, is either price gauging, or, individual creditors overvaluing the exchange rate of their credits for the good produced by others.
Of course, "company line toting" economists would tell you some humbug about "keeping inflation at 2%".....but they forget economies have NEVER existed in a equally exchanging market space .
Like, ALL of what we have had for the past few thousand years, and even now, was & is a balancing act in a house of cards!! (Wars, hurricanes, etc, wiping out entire populations, civilizations, countries, tribes, nations, etc)
Like, an orange is NOT inherently worth 5 us dollars or 20,000 yen 😂
@@Karloak I think you’re forgetting the fact that you are in essence selling your services to someone. You do work and you expect something in return, that’s how it’s worked for a very very long time, whether it’s receiving salt as a payment or precious metals stamped into a shape of a coin or a piece of paper that is printed it’s all the same. So no an orange is not inherently worth 5 U.S. dollars, but it is worth whatever price the individual is willing to pay for it. And for the record no I’m not a fan of fiat currency.
TLDR you want things, you either work for and receive some sort of currency to “barter” with or you literally barter for it by giving someone something they perceive as just as valuable or more so than the item you want.
@@TheHashtagSquad2K15 work is a communist conspiracy, true patriots want money for nothing and the kicks are for free! USA USA USA USA
Ironic that he's playing RuneScape whilst talking about this. The "I suffered through this so you should have to as well" is a sentiment commonly expressed by RuneScape players as reason to not make monotonous grinds easier or less boring.
I think the big problem of UBI is who does the work no one wants to. Not that we cannot incentivize that work, but no one with money want to incentivize it ENOUGH
It's a communist scam. It will be used to control people. Dont like the government starting a war on an innocent country, not UBI for you.
If an industry can't be profitable without the coercion that comes from people desperate to not starve, then it shouldn't exist in the same way an industry shouldn't exist if it couldn't be profitable without slavery.
The people who wants to afford luxery, UBI will only cover your food/housing. If you want to pay your subscriptions, you have to work for it. The work no one wants to do actually would be more tempting under UBI as employers would be payed what their job is worth.
@@cyclinghighlights931 I doubt it would cover anything even food eventually because of inflation. However its a fixed amount so initially it could cover housing.
@@cyclinghighlights931 People are always paid what their job is worth. Thats how the pricing mechanism in economics works. You may not like what a job is worth but that's a moot point.
Coming from Argentina, a place where we have systems like that in place, yes people do sit around and do absolutely fuck all while getting money just for existing. This also creates other problems, like people who just vote for the candidates who they know will give them more free money, and it creates higher taxes (because this money has to come from somewhere and that's not gonna be a politician's pocket) and it probably has a lot to do with inflation as well, of which we've had a 114,2% increase this year alone (unless I'm not reading the data right, but safe to say we've become used to hyperinflation, sadly).
I never bought that "If you give people free money nobody would work" argument because I was on unemployment benefits for about a year and living with my parents, so I was financially sound, and after a month or so I hated how I had nothing to do.
That is true for certain people, but remember when the checks were given out and how many stopped going to work and still didn't return to work force later on. Certain people will get bored of doing nothing and want to work, some will just work because of ethic and how they're raised and there are others that do not want to work at all. Giving free money to people leads to bad results because most people waste it, look at lottery winners, nor handle it properly.
@@blumiu2426 people waste it when they are not used to having it. When the culture changes and people feel like they can live off the free money they use it for its intended use. Wanting to do something also doesn't have much to do with ethics. People naturally want to be productive to a certain extent.
@@Cookiedible Wrong. We did not see this when people were given free money during layoffs do to Covid. We saw so many stories of people blowing it and worse. Many stopped working altogether and the work force still hasn't seen many return. There are still places not far from me that have no bus drivers for schools and been a thing for some time.
Ethics has a lot to do with how people behave. If you are raised to understand something's worth and be responsible with it, you will use it wisely. People are taught to do things, we don't naturally do them unless it is chasing pleasures aka wasting it.
There are many stories of college kids getting student loans and blowing it on themselves, not on their schooling. Lot of this surfacing with the end of student debt forgiveness.
Look at the generation we have and how they've been raised. This is not a generation of hard workers. That comes from times of some struggle and things are being built, which relates back to ethic being passed down. Most want no labor, easy money, luxurious lifestyles they see online. Why would you then say the natural inclination is to follow a passion and that is ambiguous because the passion can be "self care", not pursuing a career. The number of people responsible are and always have been outnumbered by those that are not. That's why so many are discontent and not learning contentment. More are in debt than out of debt because of personal choices living beyond their means. Not below it. We have a decadent society reflected in so much.
@@blumiu2426 there will still be people that want to work for excess money to buy more things
TBH UBI can work when sufficient amount of menial task no longer need human and doesn't benefit from human involvement, it will serve not as welfare but a simple incentive to extractive remaining value from people who cannot otherwise be used to increase fungible goods output further, or at least not at a efficient manner.
UBI would be a great policy if main goal is improve non-fungible goods output from a production possibility frontier optimization perspective.
I think it's important to remember that it simply means that everyone gets more money overall. It means that an extra $1k a month or somesuch is way more useful to someone who makes minimum wage is WAYYYY more proportionally important than someone who makes $100k a year. It also means that bosses are less able to exploit their workers because it unshackles them from at least a small portion of that dependency. It might allow someone to build savings if their job treats them terribly to be able to quit and look for a new one, etc.
There have been many pilot programs, but one in Ontario, Canada spoke to something a bit scary. It was scrapped early with little reason why; but two sociologists later interviewed participants: "More formal research was undertaken by two sociologists. They undertook qualitative interviews with a small sample of project members who specifically wished to articulate their reflections on receiving basic income. The researchers identified four themes from these interviews: "1) a desire among participants to work and be financially independent, 2) traditional welfare payments are extremely low and do not cover basic necessities, while basic income is higher and does cover these necessities, 3) beyond the basic differences in benefit amount, the conditional nature of traditional welfare programs has significant repercussions for recipients, and 4) basic income has facilitated long-term financial planning." The second and third themes were particularly pertinent. Participants reported that their nutrition improved, stress levels lowered, relationships improved and could escape from living in sub-standard housing."
Many indicators point to it being good, and inflation can be argued to it's negative, however, strangling existing workers is not a solution to inflation either. Here's a bit from economictimes:
"UBI is a redistributive economic policy that can be funded by taxing those resources that contribute little to society: wealth and passive income from shares as well as income at the very top end of society. The resources of the rich are generally off-shored and contribute little to a country's financial wellbeing. Analysis of the distributive impacts of UBI in the UK suggest its introduction would shift resources to those people and areas that need the investment most."
Read more at:
economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/universal-basic-income-does-not-cause-inflation/articleshow/98801058.cms?
The other thing is people seem to think UBI means 'get money for everything.' Like, people saying 'no one will work, they'll just play games.'
And how do they get the games, genius?
I looked into their trial and universal basic income would pay more than my full time job that ive been at and hated for 2 years... thats sad.
Yeah but you can get out of that. People will get stuck on UBI and that will be there life for the rest of it. Plus it wont come without a cost. Inflation and more government tyranny.
Same here. The job I had that damn near made me go into the forever box, and I actually was told, multiple times, by multiple medical professionals, to quit before it killed me.
I disagree with you, universal basic income would unfortunately be really likely to increase inflation by a big margin. Having a state sponsored water for example would work better in that case. It would still be a basic need fulfilled for free and circulation of money in economy wouldnt be too high.
But... experiment testing basic income would be very interesting, if preformed in a scientific group and not real economies at first
There have been experiments, many of them, and they have all shown very positive results and the exact opposite of what all the doomsayers predict will happen. Whether that remains the case on the large scale is yet to be seen, but all signs point to UBI being a great idea.
I love the idea of making people's lives easier. I don't love the idea of the government being in charge of doing so.
Honestly I'm in the same boat.
Totally agree, would you want Trump to be in charge of deciding who gets what?
As well, society has created way more beautiful art when oppressed in the past, it's literally not like there's never been art before?? So I feel Josh is wrong on this
After reading a good amount of the comments here, all I have to say is:
Don't worry commenter, you're not dooming the world to hell, you're just building a huge hand basket.
They are paving the way with good intentions!
I had a great conversation with an old friend I've sadly lost contact with, but he was extremely against UBI siting the usual talking points of everyone being lazy, money for free, etc. So I asked him point blank what he would do if he was able to take a risk and without hesitation he said he would get into landscaping, he's always like doing manual work like repairing fences and digging holes and the like but he works a warehouse job because that's all that's really around. And I explained, that's the point of UBI. If his basic expenses were covered he could just go and start his landscaping business without worrying about being on the street in a month and it completely changed his tune, he'd literally never thought of the benefits of not worrying about homelessness. People want to be productive, but they don't want it to be at the cost of their soul.
Sad that you just don't have the IQ to understand. It's been tried hundreds of times in our history, it's a shame you children aren't taught anything anymore. You're an embarrassment to your country.
Yeah. The argument that people will just be lazy is laughable when you observe just how restless people are on average. Sure, some will be, but its nuts to think people have the capacity to sit and just...be. Most people can't stand the sound of silence.
@@lol69203 Wow what an embarrassing comment, unfortunately for you there is already hundreds of years of data on this. How's Venezuela working out? How did the soviet union work out? How did communist china workout? Why are they all starving and enslaved today? The fact that I have to even say this is EMBARASSING for you, GO READ A HISTORY BOOK.
If I had UBI, even with my disability, I would be able to do what I've always wanted to: have a home that I could turn into a shelter for animals or become a snake breeder. I love taking care of animals, it brings me joy, but unfortunately with my disability, I know that I either have to cope with very minimal financial aid from the government (if they even grant it to me after years of fighting for it, it might not even be enough for basic needs), a VERY accomadating job (which I doubt I could find, as my memory is very poor and my physical prowess also is), or homelessness. Right now I don't even have enough income to live on my own. If I didn't have my family's support, I would be homeless.
The interesting bit about "Will people do what they are passionate about" doesn't account for jobs that pretty much nobody wants to do with a few rare exceptions (jobs that truly should be valued more and payed for more in my opinion). Pretty much no-one wakes up and thinks to themselves "I want to ge a garbage man! I want to drive in a garbage truck and empty the garbage bins!" That's generally not a desirable profession, yet without those guys any city would go completely dysfunctional in a matter of months. Weeks maybe.
Same with the plumbers. Same with the construction workers. Even professional ones. Operating heavy machinery is very cool, but most people don't go for that. And there are many, many crucial jobs like that, that someone has to do, but rarely anyone wants to.
We could make those jobs more enticing with many options, but what would UBI would do to them? If you can take care of all of your living expenses, why would you be a garbage man? You can try to do something else, look for another job or try to start-up something.
If we still have entrepreneurship at that point, private sector might pick up the slack, but the prices for their services would be hilarious, because they will have to pay big stacks to people to do the job tbw.
So who's paying for that? Government? Government paying for anything = you are paying. With taxes.
Or maybe we just make robots do that, but robotics and AI aren't really there yet, I don't think.
I've been saying this for years. You would have to pay people a ton of money to do critical jobs nobody wants to do. And UBI would have to pay for those services, which means if you pay those people more then UBI would have to go up to pay the higher prices. And basic goods like food would get more expensive as everyone tries to get a bigger piece of that free money. It would lead to an endless cycle of people demanding an ever-increasing UBI and costs of everything going up in response until the entire economy collapses.
A lot of UBI arguments are clearly people starting with their preferred solution and trying to apply it to a problem. If the issue is people don't have enough free time to pursue what they want or jobs disappearing from automation there are simpler ways to solve that. Like reducing the standard work week.
Why is everyone that leaves comments like this do this roundabout way of saying they're in favor of slave labor?
People will, and I say again, WILL do the shitty jobs if they ACTUALLY PAID ANYTHING WORTH A FUCK.
Yes, I want my fucking taxes to go BACK to the community I work and live in. Holy fuck dude, are you serious?
With my limited amateur observations and logic, wouldn't UBI only work if you have foreign labor outside of the system to exploit? There is a significant portion of people who are very happy to try to make due with the minimum, thus would no longer be in the labor market. Only solution would be to try to cut down on all of these office jobs I guess.
@@Spoonbringer Food prices are low because food subsidies force overproduction and disposal of excess food. The more food prices rise, the more food needs to be thrown away. I'm pretty sure that food is already priced such as to extract maximum marginal profit from the populace. UBI wouldn't change a thing.
"You would have to pay people a ton of money to do critical jobs nobody wants to do. And UBI would have to pay for those services, which means if you pay those people more then UBI would have to go up to pay the higher prices."
What? That's nonsensical. Infrastructure and government jobs are being financed by taxes. What you are saying is that *taxes* would go up if the labor cost for government work increased. That has little to do with UBI, besides slightly dropping supply in the labor market. UBI gets paid out to the people, not to infrastructure - hello?
As much as dropping 100 factory workers for them pursuing something they want is great, I come with an issue:
Right now the rich are taking so much money for themselves. Where will the universal basic income come from?
Say the state does.
They have to pay their workers less, so their profits just flat out increase. More money held by the rich.
Let's say less people start working factories so the rich doesn't get as much profit. You say there will be some that want to work in a factory. But tell me, if you group up 1000 people and ask them what they would want to pursue most, how many do you think would want to work in a factory?
So not many want to work in a factory. Do you know the means of production in a factory? I work in one, and I can tell you there are physical limits on possible productivity in many areas. So much so that efficiency is increased more with overtime than anything else.
So that means less product, and the rich won't get richer.
That's right. How are we supposed to make guitars for all the people who want to become guitarists now? How are we supposed to supply the phones to everyone who will obviously still want the phones?
You know it's great we have such an influx of actors but nobody will know them because there's no one producing albums.
Workers will have less tools, artists will have less art, people will have less luxuries. And in the end, it might even be a good thing, but that idea that "it's better to pursue what you want" falls flat. No, not everyone can be what they want. I wanted to be an architect, but in the entire city I lived in maybe only 5 people want to be builders, maybe only 4 want to work in factories producing the supplies we need. I would be an architect for no great dream projects. And I have to fight with the 5 other architects in my area over the scrap we can build our dreams for.
So no, we don't live in a society where anyone can follow their heart and do what they want. It really doesn't work like that, and it never has. Not before capitalism, not during it.
Infinite desires, limited resources.
yup all these delusional people think everyone can get a basic income and follow their dreams until the products they are used to having run out because nobody wants to do the undesirable work you think I would stay as a plumber if they offered me enough to live and I could do side work under the table you would never see me in a 9-5 again 😂
Somehow, all these people blame capatalism for the harsh realities intrinsic to life, because capatalism is the root of all evil; as if they rather be serfs.
It's not about wishing suffering to other people. It's about to experience struggles to be even able to value life.
All things in moderation.
It always reminds me of this poem.
"I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright no matter how gray the day may appear.
I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun even more..
I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive and everlasting.
I wish you enough pain so that even the smallest of joys in life may appear bigger.
I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting…
I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.
I wish you enough hellos to get you through the final good- bye. "
When people have no struggles, the invent them. Usually making problems out of non-issues.
Or think that unresolved problems are easy to solve if people would just change their attuited, without actually bother to see the bigger picture and understand why do we even have this issue in the first place.
Couldn't find the OG author...
Wait, are you saying that UBI would prevent people from enjoying life because they wouldn't have struggles?
@@AbsoluteSkycaptain No.
I'm saying UBI might make people take for granted what they have. Oblivious to what it took to get it.
It happens even now.
To assume that everyone has a calling that is frustrated by the lack of resources is just plain wrong. Not all people were born to be artists that need to express themselves.
If you want a close approximation of what could possibly happen take a look at Argentina. A significant part of the population lives off welfare.
Has that turned them into artists? Have they gone after their calling? No. Some might have. Most didn't.
Some even make fun of those who work to pay the taxes to make it possible.
Again there are no simple solutions.
This only works under the assumption that all people have the same goals and aspirations. That is simply not the case.
I don't find it unreasonable that people who actually enjoy being productive and to give something to society are not happy with the idea that some other people might live off their effort.
It's a matter of reciprocity.
Again, all things in moderation. Balance
I'm just asking the government to follow the damned rules they made, and don't let the corporates wiggle around those rules using ANY method.
One of my past workplace basically went:
"oh we pay our worker the minimum wage determined by the government, which is X. separated as follows:
- the basic pay is X/2
- another X/4 will be paid when the worker ALWAYS came to work 8-5 Mon-Fri with 100% punctual rate
- another X/4 will be paid when our monthly goal is reached"
Im sure they reward their workers with pizza parties when hitting record proffits
@@0krana333 the sad thing is... yes.
when we finished big projects, they threw Pizza parties instead of, y'know... bonus paycheck or increased salary or something...
I loved this conversation. I can't help but be confused by a lot of the sidebar comments saying that society "needs x, y or z" to survive.
Totally reasonable position but surely the answer to that is that the those positions or roles should be made more attractive than UBI.
If the UBI allows me to eat pot noodles and beans on toast but getting a job as a Factory Worker or a Binman allows me to eat Steak once a week or buy a video game then hell I'm incentivised to become a Binman if I don't have another means of making up that difference (through commissions etc).
Too many people seem to think that people won't do the jobs we need to do as a society if UBI is introduced, the people deemed "essential" over COVID, yet they are never ever treated as essential in their compensation.
Whenever someone says "if you give poor people free money, they'll just sit on their backsides all day and not do anything" ask them, if you had free money, would you sit around not doing anything?
Most people would say no, I'd do something productive. Learn a language, go back to school, start a business etc. For some reason these people think they're special and everyone around them is "just lazy" and that's why they aren't rich.
People want to do cool, productive things, the structural violence of poverty stops them
When in America covid packages were given we didn't suddenly get art or crafts just more ps5s
Really? I'll admit with no issue I am as lazy as I can get away with. Might be part of why I do IT dev stuff.
"Cool" things isn't what makes the world spin though. Somebody still needs to do the shit jobs in order for society as we know it to function. To give you an example, in order for you to get your packages warehouses need to have hundreds of miserable sleep depraved people sorting the packages so they get put in the right trucks.
And what about take out, fast food, restaurants etc, you think that's "cool"?
If everybody took the time to "find themselves" and did "cool" things you can kiss most things goodbye.
People been feed that poor people are lazy.. Yet these same poor people are working two jobs if not more to make ends meet. That doesn't sound lazy to me. And also with welfare system if you are on it you are not allowed to work or you will lose it.
I am concerned that I might actually not do something productive, even if I want to. That some require that need, that fear if you will to be a motivating factor to make them act.
I don't know though. Still got a lot to discover about myself and how I work.
The aversion to UBI is not "Boomers are just angry and want young people to suffer" or "People will be lazy" or whatever.
The issue and Josh completely dodged it is 'where does the money come from?'
Free money is never free.
In America, We are paying for the stimulus checks during covid with rampant inflation (they are not the only one reason for the inflation but they are certainly one of them) and you want to compound that by giving people government checks on a constant basis?
Do you think it possible to tax the rich in order to fund this? No, the rich will always squirm around paying. No matter how many loopholes you close, they will always find a way to avoid accountability or taxation, its awful, but that is reality.
The cost will always be passed onto the middle and lower classes because they cannot afford to resist it.
Also, plenty of art gets made without UBI, we aren't living in some bleak artless society that only UBI can brighten, what a silly point.
To some extent, America pays for it. Because the USA is already subsidizing most military expenditures for most of Europe and much of the Pacific.
Get annoyed with the "I had to suffer so you should too" mindset. I grew up poor and wearing second hand clothing, never being able to go on school trips, etc.
I don't want anyone else to go through that which is why I donate to charities that address those issues(buying new clothes for kids in need, subsidising school trips and supplies, etc).
Seems really messed up to me that you'd want anyone to suffer if you can help to prevent it.
That's not the reasoning most people who oppose student loan forgiveness have
All the arguments against UBI basically amount to "But our working conditions are so atrocious that if we give any power to the --slaves-- poor people, they wont have to put up with it anymore 😭"
People say "no one's gonna be a garbage collector out of passion". I would collect garbage not out of passion but because it is a necessity. It is necessary for society to function that we have our trash collected and taken care of. As long as I don't have to work 16 hours a day I'm willing to do almost anything. I could agree 100% to a weekly or even monthly rotation where we take turns to do these jobs every day, and with the amount of people out there that actually WOULD be garbage collectors but they're not hired because there's no room or budget, we wouldn't even have to do it more than a few hours a day.
UBI is not a matter of "is it gonna work?" it is a "We HAVE to make it work" type of situation. Humanity will be stuck where we are otherwise, or worse we might regress to a feudal system
With a bit of context removed: "Cultural artistic expression reflects philosophical evolution, interest in growth, prospective, observation, interpretation. No art means your culture is dead dead. You're just tools"
-Modrin from mass effect 2.
Just before singing the song "I'm a scientist salarian" for the first time
Ps
The actual quote said the second phrase like this "Suspect you won't find any art in collector base. Culturally deadline tools for the reapers, worse than geth"
The problem I have with UBI is that most implementations of it pay significantly less than basic disability, and usually include forcing everyone over to the new system, "to simplify things"
The last suggested implementation in my country, if it had gone through, would have had every disabled person suddenly unable to afford JUST rent, not mentioning other things like, food.
And the very tight housing market will just eat up the difference people get, by raising rent/property values by that amount, thereby effectively giving landlords more, and nobody else gets anything.
UBI is a good idea, but unfortunately we have other problems that MUST be solved FIRST.
And too many implementations of it seem rather aimed at screwing over the lower classes more than anything else.
The problem with many UBI implementations is that the people who want to implement them don't understand what "Universal" and "Basic" mean... It's not a *replacement* for unemployment benefits, disability pay, etc. it's something that's supposed to get added to that, for everyone, tax-free. If you're on unemployment benefits you'd then get UBI *and* unemployment benefits, etc.
Everything else just leads to unnecessary expenses in means testing, etc.
@@insu_na oh no they understand what their doing alright.. 😅🤡
@@insu_nathe problem with that is capitalism being capitalism ... If everyone in the world is making 1k a month that's quintillions, sextillions of dollars being pumped every month which would inflate the economy without some sort of checks and balances to stop it
The best way to solve that problem is to make it not be based on money but based on services/goods ... Instead of giving people say 1000$ to live on make living a thing that is free
@@toukoenriaze9870 Where do you think the money comes from? It's not newly minted, it comes from taxes. Re-allocating taxes has absolutely 0 effect on inflation (in an ideal world. in a not-so-ideal world it'd probably lead to price gouging of poor people by supermarkets etc.) That wouldn't *technically* be inflation, but it would functionally the same
The zeitgeist right now is that you should mortgage the future to benefit the present. (Reverse Morgages/Selling Life Insurance Policies). This fits in completely with the greed inherent in the feeling that "I earned my money, you should earn your own. I owe you nothing."
I do not think that wanting what you rightfully earned to remain yours is greedy. Literally wanting to have what others worked for is literally the definition of greed.
Work for your own damn money.
This is completely separate from UBI though since not only is that not my money you're getting, I'm getting it too.
"I grinded for my Skyscale, so others should grind for theirs as well!"
I think the biggest issue is if it was a thing, corporations would immediately jack up prices to compensate so the "safety net" becomes "a tax on the lower classes". So I doubt anything would change all that much. Cause I know if I was a soulless corporation that knew everyone now has X amount more money, I'd immediately set people to work calculating how much to raise my prices so that over that month that money goes to me.
societal value of creating art: imagine during the pandemic there would have been no entertainment media available. (Games, Netflix, RUclips) . There is a value in creating art that others can consume.
So you’re saying if the government gave people money to not work (which they did) during the government mandated lockdowns which the government has since decried as a bad idea, things would have been fine? Mhm…
It's also such an NPC take to think everyone should be trying to maximise their productivity.
@@ekki1993elaborate?
@@CaptainTitforce You should do things because you enjoy them, not because they will make more money. Making some money is needed for that, but forgetting that the end goal is enjoying life turns you into a drone. Or worse, a Tate follower.
@@ekki1993 But why can't it be both? You can do what you love and try to be productive at the same time? Productivity doesn't always mean money, it means that you gain something worthy of the work it required.
The art discussion is really interesting. A society loses its entire purpose when it stops being lively and simply turns into a highly effective capitalist labour camp.
'The I suffered so you should suffer too' mock argument is flaccid as a counter to opposing UBI, because exact same people argue, that inheritance should be stripped away and redistributed by state, cause people that inherited wealth do not earn/deserve it.
Fact is most people don't want anyone to suffer, otherwise we'd annihilated each other long time ago. However, individuals and most importantly, successful individuals do not want their agency to be stripped from them. By any 'collective'.
I work hard so MY children do not have to. Not ALL children, just mine. The ones I know. Ones I brought up and deem worthy of benefiting from my sweat and blood. In same fashion when I support charity I decide who gets a piece of my sweat and blood, because I find their circumstance is worth piece of my life to improve theirs.
UBI proponents are full out on how it will let people follow passions and give safety net and enable creativity and be a bliss to art. While neglecting 'the small' detail. Who is going to determine and enforce wealth extraction from working people? Who will control redistribution? Who and how will make sure that wealth creation is taught to and passed onto the next generation?
It is what successful families do and it is what struggle from harsh circumstance does to eventually successful individuals. But UBI will remove that out of equation in span of 2-3 generations with an exception of very few 'elites' controlling extraction and redistribution.
Dekulakization.
@@nevisysbryd7450 Very good example. It was based on same premise as UBI and ended in horrifying atrocities while solving nothing. Anyone who supports UBI should study actual history how 'dekulakization' went in Eastern and Central Europe. Find someone who lived through it and talk to them (while they are still alive).
Then notice something. Most families that have been taken everything from them, been tortured, had their members abused and killed... over the course of last 80 years they rebuilt their wealth. All the while people who were given land, livestock and machines squandered it. That's how it went on local community scale.
Only net gain registered was on side of ideologues and sadists enforcing the process.
"Who is going to determine and enforce wealth extraction from working people? Who will control redistribution? Who and how will make sure that wealth creation is taught to and passed onto the next generation?"
Didn't society already answer that question when it came up with pensions, unemployment benefits and food stamps?
Why should some 96 year old geezer be paid money that comes from *your* taxes that siphons wealth that ought to belong to *your* kids? Same argument.
i love that this is under GuildWars 2 also, which is clearly a reference to people having something better to play and choosing to be mad about it (you'll never know which MMO i'm pointing to either)
Equilibrium is a great movie to show a world without art and the meaning it has to society.
It's like if The Matrix and American Psycho did a fusion dance
@@greenhowie That's a great way of putting it.
It's my favourite film of all time. It's perfectly bleak and yet beautiful.
Right but that was not to do with economics. The same governments that people trust implementing UBI banned art.
@@Garycarlyle I'm specifically commenting on the remarks about art in society that he made. It feels like an applicable thing to bring up.
I think when it comes to UBI people need to understand 2 things when they're arguing against it because it stems from 2 mindsets:
1. Won't everyone just sit around and do nothing? Look at Covid as a prime example, for 3-6 months absolutely people were enjoying having a break for once...after 3-6 months everyone started complaining how bored they were, how unproductive they felt, how much partners were annoying them because they were around all the time etc. So people are conditioned to want to be a level of productive the majority of people who do enjoy just sitting around wanting to do absolutely nothing have levels of issues that would be on some form of benefits anyway.
EDIT: Just as a point of mis-understanding I think alot of people have on what UBI would be, if you're earning say 1500 a month, UBI would be something like 800 a month, you're not going to throw away your 1500 a month job just to scrap by on 800 a month barely able to afford the bills on the house, UBI isn't a replacement for full wages like people think it would be (although in the UK that's probably due to the trial being 1600 a month when ultimately its a trial to see what people spend on then scale it back to most likely half).
2. People won't want to do basic jobs anymore that they're forced to do now without that safety net? There are plenty of examples you can find of things like Lorry drivers who actually love their job because it's just a simple, easy, repetitive job with very little responsibility or input past driving, the problem isn't that people don't want those types of jobs, its that those jobs pays are associated with being completely unworthy.
If you pointed out to a majority of kids today that going to Uni, getting a huge debt to work an office job where because of how the corporate world works the likelyhood is you'd average out at 30k max in a middle manager position, or you could go from school into training to be a plumber/lorry driver etc and make a base of 30k starting with 0 debt and alot less responsibility, you'd probably find more people training in trades than today. The reason most take the Uni route and end up an office joe is because they're fed the mentality that they could all end up being millionaire CEOs working the corporate ladder if they have the right qualifications, more than the reality that 99% only get to middle management at best, the problem is always the pay structure not the jobs themselves.
EDIT: For American's wanting to come talk about the numbers, Josh is a UK based streamer talking about UBI being trialled currently in the UK so im going to use UK based rates :')
Also yes to that 1 UK guy who's going to say "I work in London as a manager and get 60k" yes big cities pay more, small towns less, we're talking generally on average.
The only ones that had a good time during COVID were kids and teenagers because they had infinite time to play and do what they like the most, do nothing productive and claim that they are "saving lives" by staying at home doing nothing. Buying into the brainwash because it was convenient to them.
How old are you and those who liked your comment? That's the real question here.
1. Lazy people sit around and do nothing all the time this wont change that.
2. People dont wanna do horrible jobs and get paid penny's to be taxed and only survive instead of make a living
3. People should get paid to go to college not the other way around...College is expensive.
If you don't think socialist programmes are good in a democratic society then just think about the implications of removing them, most of the UK for example would look a chinese state with millions of homeless living off the streets. You are wrong about the office job btw, most settle for an office job because they never found their passion and or aimed for it. They end up getting kids and need to find a stable job any job will do when you have a child on the way or other debts to pay because society managed to get you in its grasp.
1)people have been conditioned that way, but moving forward younger generations won't have that conditioning. People were bored since they had nothing to do during the pandemic, which also feeds into partners annoying them (as well as the fact that they probably shouldn't been in that relationship).
2) 30k for a middle manager job? That's pretty damn low estimate on your part. At least in the US the average salary of a middle management position is around 75k-80k, with local truck drivers making an average of 60k (long haul drivers make considerably more but that is by no means a simple job with less responsibility). The problem with kids deciding to go to college and being in debt, at least from what i've seen, is getting a degree in either random shit without having an idea of what they can do with that degree afterwards... OR getting a degree in already overcrowded fields that makes their chances of getting a good job to pay off debt less likely.
Went to uni, didn't get any debt (in Europe), got a first job paying more than 40k gross yearly.
I also doubt people going to uni think becoming a corporate drone is the way to become a CEO. Most usually just want a safety net, gain experience then start their own companies to become millionaires and so on. The "issue" is that sometimes you start a family then staying a corporate drone is cozy, not too much to worry about, steady income, nice job. You start having the capital and the network to start your own thing but due to administrative constraints (and taxes), it's too much of an hassle and risk when you can simply keep going as is. Office jobs are fulfilling and important, I'd rather do that than drive a lorry.
Now I agree with some principles of UBI (I'm slightly against it but sometimes slightly for it, a bit indecisive) but your first argument is easy to disprove (the second one I kinda agree with). Covid DID cause economic damage, people WERE less productive and it didn't fix itself.
I was a bit like that, getting bored, started doing other things on the side, these things were not beneficial to society nor worthy of an income, just some experimentations with diverse frameworks and just me having fun, not doing anything productive for society. As Josh says, you need a demand on the market, being "productive" producing something nobody wants is making me feel productive but won't help society run itself. If society stops running, I lose everything.
Going back to the second argument, I agree with the fact adding yet another layer of social security won't make all workers qui their jobs but now there would be a new issue: thousands and thousands of excess lorry drivers (if we take your example). Not only is this a complete waste of fuel and lorries, it would destroy the supply chains of jobs. Some workers are paid less because their "skills" are not demanded on the market (for our societies). On the opposite, we need more "office joes" than people who want to uni learn hard-to-master skills, the incentive to get more educated workers is to give them better salaries and advantages so that people who don't really know what to do will go for it. If we made all jobs a minimum attractive, we would run the risk or running out of skilled workers in all sectors and that would end up damaging the economy quite a lot (since in modern countries, skilled "office joes" are the brunt of the workforce generating most of the tax money that covers social plans, pensions, healthcare and so on).
I think that's fairly inaccurate on a few counts,
1) talking about plenty of people actually loving the jobs and being willing to do jobs and such after a little bit of not doing anything. the problem with that is there are no statistics backing any of that up. I agree with you, plenty of people would do good things but what percentage of the population is plenty? If we are going to completely change the way we do things we need some data to back this up.
2) the bigger problem is that over the last couple generations were the first where college was "relatively" easily accessible and for those generations it wasn't the way to become CEOs but it was the way for them to climb out of the class they were born into much more easily than they were previously able. The downside is supply and demand is a thing and we have been told the college is the way the truth and the light and when everyone does it the value of it goes down, and we are seeing a rise in demand and lowering of supply for the trade routes which is one of the reasons we are currently seeing an 8% decline in people going to college over the last few years.
3) if someone is making 30k max in a middle management position something is terribly wrong, a shift manager at walmarts average salary is just over 40k, I wouldn't call that a middle manager and I don't think that requires a college degree and it's already 25% over your estimation
Universal basic income will work great....and there will be peace and unity with the new folks that wandered into France.
I am not an economist, I'm just a person who lives in a place where you have to learn to cheat the system to survive. So maybe my non-American perspective might add something to the conversation.
UBI would do 1 thing that I'm certain of: increase inflation. Why?
There are jobs that people only do because THEY NEED MONEY, jobs that people in general are NOT PASSIONATE about (like janitorial jobs, sanitation etc.). These jobs are also likely to NOT GET AUTOMATED soon. In places such as: hospitals, motels, offices, schools etc. you NEED sanitation workers to ensure that the ppl. working in these places can STAY (relatively) HEALTHY and keep on working.
But you don't want to scrub toilets do you? Not when you can stay at home and do whatever you want (including doing nothing). People aren't stupid, if you offer them FREE MONEY and no work THEY WILL TAKE IT.
So how do you get sanitation workers back? By INCREASING their PAY. Scrubbing poop off of toilets? "Give 'em more money"! Stacking products in a supermarket? "Give 'em more money"! They will now come back, but there is a problem: now the manager have to INCREASE THE PRICE OF PRODUCTS at the supermarket to MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY as the supermarket did before UBI. Same with whatever the people work on in a particular office because the janitor's pay had to be increased.
Now your UBI is no longer enough for you to buy your basic necessities, and everything costs more. So now you can:
A: DEMAND the government INCREASE the UBI (which would start the process over, pay has to be increased, prices go up etc.)
B: Go back to work
I think I made a charitable interpretation of what would happen, I didn't list jobs that are "clean" but soul crushing (working in insurance, or being a dentist) or demonized jobs (like police officers) and so on.
However, personally, I would love it, if a system like this could exist without the fear of collapse. Maybe with some widespread cultural change it could be achieved?
Anyways, thanks for reading my futile RUclips-comment essay.
opinion pieces like this are more knowledgeable then you think. But it's pretty much common sense... Josh would know if he abused market boards on rs and WoW. lol, like rmt is like a gateway into learning how to crash the economy, so it's not like he's unaware. mmo players know what it's all about playing with pretend money.
Anyways... Your wisdom has been passed on :P
I really need to start watching Josh's twitch streams. More so now than ever since that I just started playing Oldschool RuneScape with my brother-in-law and I could probably learn a lot from watching... okay maybe not, since Josh is currently doing LazyMan, but still-.
I should still start watching him just because every clip I see is either incredibly funny, incredibly insightful and thoughtful, or a combination of both. And while it's clear Visa does an amazing job of choosing these clips and editing them, I imagine there's a lot of great content that doesn't fit into even carefully edited short clips and a lot of stuff he has to bypass just because there's only so much he can show and he only has so much time. So I want to see more, see what has to be dropped on the cutting room floor.
Though thanks a ton for this channel by the way Visa! You do good work, and bring entertainment, and thoughtfulness, and happiness, to my life. This might seem overblown but heck, this clip was partially about the value of streamers like Josh and what they bring to society and the value of art and entertainment, so I think it's only fitting that I tell you how much value your work brings here.
The amount of people who think UBI means 'thousands of dollars to provide for any want' is too fucking high.
Tell me, if UBI, a system to cover food and rent, is instituted, and people stop working to play games....where the fuck are they getting the games? How are they paying for internet?
easy, they demand higher UBI
As someone who's tried going to college *and* working a min wage job to sustain myself, i burned myself out in less than a semester. i tried dropping classes, getting help from teachers and staff, going over the material repeatedly, and even trying another semester; but i wasn't making any progress, and eventually had to drop out. If i *am* going to get some sort of education, i'd probably have to focus on that *exclusively*, and i don't think i'll be able to do that anytime soon(at least, in the US)
In the beggining it would be a mess but in the long run it feels inevitable. Automation isn't there yet but it will be thanks to ai , robotics etc . Those that will do nothing won't be able to enjoy luxuries . It only covers so much
Gonna sound like a lazy bastard, but imo, the point of automation is that overtime, humans don't have to work for the sake of survival, but for hobbies and filling time to do something else
@AHappyCub oh I agree but because so many people will be against it , we will probably never see true ubi so some economic input that is tedious will always exist.
Wow, read a history book you moron. Imagine not realizing UBI has not only been tried hundreds of times but failed hundreds of times. How's Venezuela going you complete moron?
@@AHappyCub
People will still need to be able to build those machines
And to maintain those machines
And to build and maintain the software that runs on those machines
And to investigate and improve facets of these machines
And to analyse statistical data that may lead to new necessities
And to gather and transport both the exports and requirements of those machines
And to recycle the waste of those machines
Now your argument will be "well other machines can just do that", so what do you do when there's a malfunction in the supply line and you don't have a replacement at hand? You just accept the end of human society?
Redundancies will always be needed, and at the end of the redundancy chain it is essential for it to be human expertise. Humans won't stop working, some jobs will just be replaced by others. The same way we no longer have people running kilometres on foot to deliver messages on paper. And while you may also say that only a few people need to do that, what is your solution if not ENOUGH people WANT to do that? If they don't NEED to fulfill these positions, what happens to the redundancy chain if a certain generation lacks interest?
It sounds very appealing but without a mcguffin matter replicator that a single person can maintain and still service thousands, the post-scarcity future of star trek will remain a fantasy.
-edit- and this all assuming the absolute best of people, the rot of human nature surfacing in the people controlling these systems would inevitably lead to disaster
Also want to underline that I'm not claiming to have a better alternative, nor that the current system works, I just don't think UBI it is the magical solution people are thinking it is
@@vaan_ The only reason a company would ever use new technology is because it reduces the cost of operation and increases profits. If using the new technology required not only more work but more skilled work, it would never be used because that would only increase their costs.
With regards to not enough people wanting to do a task, the current solution is just coercion. If you don't have a job you go homeless and starve, so companies exploit this and heavily devalue labor because the only other option for workers is homelessness and starvation, which is pretty effective as new technology reduces demand for labor and more people need work. If people had their basic needs met through UBI, you can still get people to do the undesirable work... you just need to pay them what the labor is actually worth. If a job is particularly nasty and undesirable to do, then people who do the work should be paid accordingly, not starvation wages. The value of labor would increase to reflect what it's actually worth, rather than be pushed artificially low due to a coercive system.
UBI certainly isn't a magical solution and it's kind of flawed in that it'll basically let those with political power be able to decide what the floor is for acceptable living. But having any floor is better than where the US is currently at...
Trebuchet for the guy who's done the math and is willing to bet his life on his math.. for everyone else ballista, catapult, burning pitch pored over the wall you are standing on. There was also that infantry life.
Okay, this is my absolute favourite Josh Strife Says video yet. I mean it’s _precisely_ the sort of deep dive intellectual and philosophical discussion that actually manages to grab my attention for longer than a few minutes. I am cognitively and emotionally incapable of small talk, gossip, idle chitchat, etc., because there’s not enough meat to satisfy my oft ravenous hunger for knowledge…
Why does it seem like every single comment I post before breakfast involves food analogies to some extent? I’m not even hungry yet… 😅
I think my argument against universal basic income is that I don’t think people aren’t being the best versions of themselves because they don’t have a safety net, but because human beings follow a very simple rule. You will always do what is easiest; conservation of energy. Now, I don’t mean always do nothing, I mean what is physically, but more importantly, mentally the easiest for you to do. We are in a rare spot where we live without fighting for survival, as we have done for thousands and thousands of years. I think that changed faster than our natural instinct has changed.
I do feel as if the jealousy argument, or the argument that right wingers say “I suffered so you must suffer too” is a straw man argument. For no other reason than I just don’t think people care that much about other people. People want their own suffering lessened more than they want others suffering increased.
I mostly here from conservative or libertarian discussion on economics and I rarely ever hear anything that could be construed even in bad faith as wanting others to suffer to justify their experience when it comes to economic policy. It is largely a strawman.
I've never heard “I suffered so you must suffer too” or any formulation of that from anyone right wing. It's a lazy interpretation of genuine good advice made to bastardise and dismiss it
The thing alot of people forget about UBI and "why would anyone be a garbage man" is that no one should have to be anything.
We have the capability to automate everything from emptying your bins to growing, processing and delivering your food.
The main hold back right now is that humans NEED jobs. If UBI were to lessen or eliminate that need we would likely see an increase in base efficiency as the robots get developed faster and faster
just makes sense. more money in peoples pockets, more money put back into the economy. keeping local businesses running.
another good thing about basic income would be if you need time off work for whatever reason you dont have to worry so much finacially about it.
might also partially solve the homeless problem. assuming they figure out a way to solve the drug problem.
For the love of god, please learn about the broken window fallacy.
More dependence on big daddy gov.
It doesn't make sense at all. What it will create is valuless money and even more gimmes. Anyone who says "just makes sense" doesn't know a thing about economics.
Where do you find the money needed to fund all of this? Print it? That worked so well Zimbabwe and Venezuela.
The U.S.S.R pre Capitalist China, Cuba, and just about every other place that's tried it. It turns out, in reality and not theory, the majority of people don't want to be productive for no reason, they just want to dick around and get free money.
It also turns out, in reality, we need things done to survive that are not pleasant. While it may be wonderful that everyone is pursuing their dream "art", when no one can eat because no one wants to shovel sh*t, or fix pipes, or purify water, or pick crops, or fix houses, or build things, it will turn out to be a bunch of dead artists as no one is eating and nothing is getting done.
I love how all the "but my taxes!!!" people in the comments fail to see, that even without UBI they still pay even more taxes to keep those "failed subjects" as they call them in prison. They´re literally hurting themselves financially and still feel morally superior doing so. It amazes me how those people think they´re the smart ones that understood "the system." lmao
9:56
I'm sure you've heard people say "I had X happen to me and I turned out alright" and my first thought is always. "No, you didn't"
They turned out all right in spite of x happening to them.
Seen a man fall to his death in high rise, I dunno if I turned out alrite. Imagine paying 50% in taxes to be put in the lower class... Meritocracy be f'ing DAMNED.
@@Robert_D_Mercer Meritocracy already doesn't exist, rich people higher other rich people family members to high end jobs. Why do you think networking is such a big thing. It is often about who you know over what you can do.
well my parents and I (in ealry childhood) lived under communism and all these talking points were the exact same. The problem arises when you become dependent on the government too much, then your ability to protest or resist any other option they want becomes way more limited. Plus printing more money at this time is just dumb for so many reasons, the $ is loosing so much value, you cant just give every single person free money and expect nothing to go wrong
Based, my not-comrade comrade.
Print? Why? Keep the inflation at the 2% mark as much as possible, first of all. Increase taxes if the government spending is at a deficit. That's how it's done with any government expense.
@@roadent217 Taking into consideration just the US, a minimum wage being given is almost 7 trillion a month, 84 trillion a year, 3 times more than the whole US makes across all markets, or GDP. Where do you get 3 x the money you make from everything in a year to give away for free to everybody. Please explain to me how that money will be made without printing it from thin air. You dont have to, Ill tell you, you get it from making money worthless in the first place
@@elsavic "Taking into consideration just the US, a minimum wage being given is almost 7 trillion a month"
If we set the UBI at $1000 per person per month, and 331.9 million people in the US, that's 331.9 billion USD per month. That's about 4 trillion USD per year. You're off by an order of magnitude.
The US currently spends 1.22 trillion USD per year on Social Security. Guess that sort of UBI would require the US to more than triple the current social spending... Hmm... tough. Not impossible. Nothing as ludicrous as what you miscount.
@@roadent217 The minimum wage is 1600, so add 60% to that, i used 2k since I think thats a basic livable line in the US , and i guess i added an extra zero by mistake. Still 6-8 trillion is insane amound of money to be just printed every year. Its crazy that even if you slash my numbers by 1/10 it still cripples the US economy regardless and devalues the dollar. Crazy huh
You stop believing in things like universal basic income and everyone just following their passion real quick when your sewer is backing up at 2am.
It already does that without UBI.
@@aMondayMorningI think he forgot to mention "and there's a plumber shortage so you won't get it fixed for a month or two"
@@divinecomedian2 I'm sure you're very well studied in all economic theory, and have already run several trials of this on varying populations right?
You wouldn't just be talking out your ass about something you have no clue about, right?
The thing with that is people would still work jobs they had for the most parts because the Ubi + the pay for that job would enable better living than ubi alone, the idea is simply to have a safty net that makes it possible to consider other options
This is a double edged sword though. I disagree that the opposition to UBI is based purely on jealousy. If there are millions of people working minimum wage jobs that they hate who can all of a sudden earn as much money for doing nothing as doing the job they hate, they have no incentive to stay in that job and will therefore leave. Imagine a mass exodus of the most numerous workers in society who keep life ticking on as usual.
Prices will skyrocket, because goods are more scarce given there are far fewer people producing them, or if wages have to be drastically increased to incentivise people to stay, and also because money will be far less valuable because of the amount of money printing that would be necessary to keep a monthly UBI functional. Ultimately, what we need to make UBI work is a heavily automation driven economy which can replace the missing workers and their production value. And then we're totally dependent on a robot economy which would likely be produced by big evil corporations or inept government manufacturing. It's just not workable yet.
Chat pissin' me off in this one lol
"no one will do plumbing or garbage collection"
My dude you can still incentivize crappy jobs
UBI doesn't mean we all live in a money-free paradise, it means that we have our basic expenses covered
It just means you'd have to pay plumbers and garbage collectors what their job is actually worth rather than forcing people into it to survive
As someone benefitting from social security payments to establish a business of my own artwork, it's lovely.
I don't have to stress about feeding myself or a roof over my head as long as I live frugally and responsibly.
This gives me more time to focus on my business and stress about all the other things in this Capitalist Hellscape in Tory Britain.
Anyone who thinks UBI is feasible is a clown and has no idea how money works. Infact we just had a goddam pandemic and look what happened in that short time with all the money printing. Do you understand what inflation is?
What do you think will happen if UBI.
the biggest misconception with UBI is that people will just sit at home enjoying government paid good life, but that is not how it will work. UBI will pay for your most basic living expenses, so you know that if you don't have a job you will at least have a roof over your head and won't starve, (what basically already happens with food stamps and shelters, except people in these conditions have a much harder time with finding a new job for obvious reasons). what it won't do is pay for your luxury, if you want a car, nice clothes, games to play, etc, you will ABSOLUTELY need to work for it. but with a safety net you will be free to work on what you want, you won't need to be exploited by your employer because you are afraid to end up living on the streets if you lose your job, you will be able to take more risks with investments and personal projects, and so on.
Universal basic income just means that sellers know that everyone has X amount more money, and they're gonna make sure you spend it on them. So they raise prices and you end up with the same amount of cash left over as if there was no UBI.
They do this now with Section 8 housing, any raise or attempt making money under that system the renters increase the rent in response.
Hey, while you're looking in that crystal ball, mind telling me next weeks lotto numbers?
I totally agree with finding something you enjoy for work. I actually enjoyed my house-keeping job at a mall. Yes, I was perfectly content walking sidewalks, emptying trash, scrubbing toilets, etc. Mainly because it was an easy routine to fall into, and follow. If something came up. Okay, I know how to deal with it. I'll take care of it, and make up the time elsewhere. The only real stressor were customers. Because some of them could be flat out hateful. But I wasn't doing it for *them* I did it because it was nice, simple work that I could either focus on if necessary, or let my mind wander into stories I'm writing with others who also enjoy writing. Unfortunately, the pandemic put me out of work for 3 months, and when I came back, it was almost a new job entirely. I struggled for weeks trying to understand and enjoy my job as I had before, but I just couldn't. So, I left. And from what I was told, I did the right thing. Because things just were NOT working anymore.
I miss how the job was pre-Covid.
I hope the last drop from that water gave Josh the knowdlege that smart water won't make him trully smart
what people dont get is that people have been getting money for "nothing" for a while in the form of tax breaks, social security, fed disability etc. Giving people a baseline wage will help alot of people not be paycheck to paycheck and stop alot of predatory lending. Also certain cities getting more money is also a good thing for infrastructure/city budgets. Will some people abuse it...yes people are abusing government programs now.
as the us has shown us in the last few years, running the money printer overtime leads to inflation and that makes the prices go up. also, at least in the us, cost of living varies greatly. what you could live on in small town Mississippi would not even scratch rent in Los angeles California. which do you base it on? if you start giving one place more money, then youre going to get people moving there just for the extra free money, worsening overcrowding in certain places. there are also a lot of people who will simply not work unless jobs pay a lot more. and if businesses have to greatly increase wages, prices will raise based on that. no one wants to be a package sorter/loader at ups, pay goes up, cost of shipping everything goes up, that goes for dhl, fed ex, and the usps as well. same idea for every outdoor physical labor job. if farmers have to pay all their employees more, be it a meat, dairy, egg, or vegetable farm, those prices go up.
imagine if you want to go to mcdonalds for lunch a while into ubi. the base cost of all the food is up, the cost to ship it to the processing center is up, the cost of processing it is up, cost to ship it to the store is up, and the actual in-store overhead is up because there is a much greater demand for mcdonalds cooks than there are people who would be there given a choice.
the summary of my longpost is this: government has a long history of doing things with disasterous unintended consequences. government should do as little as possible and just let us keep more of our paycheck. that would beat any ubi in my view.
The problem comes when it turns out that nobody is really passionate about doing backbreaking work in the fields or mucking out sewers or collecting garbage or driving trucks cross country.
Before you can make any sweeping societal change, you need to be absolutely rock fucking solid confident that you're not going to disrupt your food supply or utilities or anything of that nature. And most people I see advancing UBI have not got a real plan for ensuring this, no kind of backup for "what if all our farmers and truck drivers just quit on the spot" -- that's someone else's job to think of. And that kind of encapsulates my frustration with this strain of thought nicely. It's just;
1. Implement UBI.
2. ?????
3. Utopia!
And Step 2 is just, "well someone else will figure it out, I'm sure." Nobody who advocates burning down the system ever has a clear and thought out idea for what to replace it with and how to manage the transition, which tells me that really, they're only actually in it for the burning stuff down part, and not to do the actual hard work of building something functioning and enduring that comes after.
Well, if you don't want them to quit, then pay them more?
What a revolutional idea - its as if people doing the harder work should be getting paid more than someone sitting in a chair all day!
@@ldezzer3950 Okay. So wages are now higher for all the workers in these jobs.
Any, er... any idea what that might do to the cost of the goods and services produced, in order to maintain profitability?
@@marquiseMindfang Food subsidies will increase? Local municipalities will raise their budget? All that will get covered by part of the UBI for the poor, and higher taxes for the rich.
@@roadent217 ah, "someone else will pay for it" the eternal prayer of the socialist
@@marquiseMindfang The highest federal marginal individual income tax rate was 90% in 1955, and is now some 38%. Do you consider president Dwight D. Eisenhower to be a socialist?
I am fine with UBI so long as everyone gets it, not just those who make nothing. The worst social programs are those that encourage you not to make more than X because if you make X+1 then you lose 5,000 units. As for student loans, forgiving loans is the most stupid method of addressing the college cost problem. What happens to the people who go to college after you? Or do we just forgive loans every 4 years? You might as well make college free at that point -- at least that way you could have some control over what colleges charge in tuition, and potentially have some service requirement for the free tuition. If you just forgive loans all the time, then the one predictable thing that will happen is huge increases in tuition. It also makes it such that person X who is going into a trade after high school is subsidizing people going to college. College prices became way too high in large part because of easy to obtain loans.
You have no idea what it's like to work in higher end construction then... I swear to god, there's been weeks where I was payed almost 50 dollars an hour, and with overtime, I would of cleared over 2k those weeks... But with taxes, I cleared 950. bruh... The working class is literally PHUCKED. 31 years old and I give up man, not worth it. Rebar/steel has the highest injury death ratio of any labor job and they do this to us. With bills and with me being the only man working in my family, the future I was promised with this hard work is f'ing GONE. so good job bringing in immigration and cheap labor. Im so happy those guys are working for cheaper and making our COuntry so much better. Enjoy the loud music and chaos from ur neighbors I guess.
MOST people WANT to work. We've Experimented with Universal Basic Income and the Great Majority of people DID continue to work. An while SOME people will try to claim Art is NOT a Career or Value...they 100% DO value it when they want/need it. If it had no value, then we wouldn't LOVE Entertainment so much! Nobody values things until it's gone, like Fast Food Workers. Nobody values it, until the Quality DEGRADES like we've seen with the MCU. I think MORE people WOULD become Flesh & VTubers, but as more Side Gigs. Things to do for Fun & A Little Bonus Money. Which is what more shitty jobs will be, and Emplyers will HAVE to start paying more or giving Bonuses, like they did during the Pandemic.
I don't think most people that are against forgiving student loans hold the argument that "I suffered, so you should suffer too". Or if they said that, it's not that simple.
I think it's about teaching people responsibility, and having a society that takes responsibility for their actions. Yes, currently student loans are ridiculous, but you need to understand that it's your responsibility to uphold your end of the bargain you agreed to upon taking one. I agree that it would be better to have a world where the necessity of taking such a bad deal for a higher chance of getting a better job shouldn't be there. But I also think it would be a terrible lesson to several entire generations if they got their student loans forgiven. It solves nothing in the long run.
This is coming for someone who has the equivalent of 32000£ / 41000$ in student loans.
Not really a solid take. Our advanced society requires more education to make a living than before. Your choices today are go to school to try and increase your chances of securing a decent job or skip out on college and roll the dice on landing a highly competitive job.
I'm not saying EVERYONE needs to go to school. Some majors are quite literally useless to anyone but the super rich who can afford to live off mommy and daddy. A better solution imo is government wiping the slate clean and providing incentives/reimbursement for people pursuing majors related to high demand industries such as healthcare, manufacturing, software... Etc. Another thing might be in regulating which jobs can reasonably require a university degree--so the stupid liberal arts major loophole gets closed in the corporate world. Alternatively, community college/trade schools should be free and state colleges can be subsidized (for the same in demand majors)
@@Trenz0 You aren't limited to choosing between college or no college if you want a good job in today's society. Trade school, apprenticeships and online certificates can all net you higher paying jobs than a shocking amount of college degrees can. All three are cheaper than paying for college too. There are other examples, but my point is that even in our shitty situation you aren't forced to agree to a student loan.
You are right about our society requiring more education, and I also think your take on the government greasing the groove for high demand majors could be a good one. But wiping out student loans wouldn't "wipe the slate clean" on its own. The system needs an overhaul, but that most likely requires uprooting so many jobs etc that our society wouldn't be able to do it all at once. Now, that doesn't mean I'm advocating for not getting it done, I just don't know where to start.
Your last point is basically what we are doing in Norway, though most people still have to take student loans for colleges because we have some of the highest costs of living in the world here. While trade schools actually pay you when you become an apprentice during the third year, and they are alternatives for high schools so most people still live with their parents at that point.
What a great conversation. Thanks, Josh! You're gold. Can we clone you and stuff you in Parliament?! 😂
You gotta admit, when joining a Josh stream, you always become a little bit wiser than before.
Multiple facets of the "I paid off my student debt so you do too"
1. Older people had FAR less student debt, it was possible to pay it off. Nowadays student debt is so large, and wages are so poor, that you can't even pay off the interest - you're left with it forever. Many young people now have spent more paychecks "breaking even" than older people spent paying off their entire debt.
2. The argument "I had to deal with this so you do to" is an argument against improving ANYTHING.
Yeah I think it's mostly impossible to KNOW how UBI will go societally. Especially in the long term.
But looking at life, specifically in America? I think it's a necessary step in the progression of improved standard of living. I certainly think it's worth a shot. During the pandemic, just giving people money was WILDLY beneficial for decreasing poverty, peoples self reported mental health shot up, and they had the ability to CHOOSE their jobs, instead of needing to debase themselves to keep multiple miserable jobs.
It won't happen though, not here in the u.s anyway. Government is far too deep in the pocket of people who DESPERATELY want a large population of easily exploited worker who have no choice but to work for cheap, because they need healthcare, and homelessness is often a death sentence, or a prison sentence. Sometimes both, so you gotta make rent. So it isn't changing. America needs an underclass, and it's the most individualist society I'm aware of. The broader culture HATES the idea of improving another persons life, of working towards ANY sort of collective improvement. An entire nation of 'fuck you, I got mine'. Even if they haven't got shit.
The stone statue face is about as bad as the anime profile pic. They have shockingly similar behaviors too.
My GUT feeling about universal basic income is: (and... i havent really thought hard enogh about it... but again... first gut feeling). Who would work at hospitals? Factorys? Malls? Repair train tracks? Fix the drainage system when it breaks down? Would i like to get a basic income myself... yes offc. Who wouldnt? But that is not the real question. The question is, will our society work? I mean... i wouldnt work in a steel mine. I wouldnt repair your toilet when it breaks down. Why should i if i didnt have to? Would you repair my toilet? I wanna stay at home and make music.
People think they would get "so free to follow dreams". Offc not. Cause... now the government sends you a letter telling you: "Here is your placement! We need you to do this for us!!". And there you go! LESS freedom! (again.. my gut feeling)
"Why should i if i didnt have to?"
If you're fine with never buying new fancy clothes, or an iPhone, or a car, or going to a restaurant, or taking a vacation trip abroad, or go to a paid concert, or anything else that, per Andrew Yang's "Freedom dividend", would cost more than 1000$ per month... then, sure, your question is valid.
It's just a question of how much that UBI would give the people. My understanding was that it should cover basic needs, and little else.
@@roadent217 I Hear you! But thats the thing, right. I live on a "masic needs" economy right now. I tought my self when i ran my own bussiness to "live cheep". Its just a state of mind. So... take me as an example. I dont "need" more. So why the h*ll would i contribute to society. I would just sit at home and make music and art. (witch is what i am doing right now actually... from saving up loads of money from my cheep lifestyle). So... my point is. If i then got a letter from the government: "Hey mr. We need you to clean toilets! Because now we own you by giving you free money". No, fuck that! The idea is a trap. It makes much more sense to have it then, as we have in sweden, where i live. We pay LOADS of taxes (75% defacto) And then society takes care of people with support. But it must be a plan for people to get back to work and contribute to that pot that helps others.
It would allow people to fail and not have to worry. I would force better working conditions when you don't need the job. It would also give birth to much more forward thinking to solve the world's problems due to the fact that people wouldn't need to stress about basic needs and so would naturally have the chance to learn and thinking about more than just themselves.
You drank too much communist coolaid, it will do neither of those, because communism requires you to put into the system. Universal basic income would require you to work to the menial jobs with little benefits. Go check your brain cells.
We've already solved them but that's not the will of the powers that be
The fact that kids are posting these kind of comments is frankly ASTONISHING. I'm FKING amazed at how NAIVE our youth has become. Read a history book you embarrassment to society. UBI has been tried and failed HUNDREDS of times, how's Venezuela going dipshit?
Nah, most people have that already. When people are living well, most of them don't care about solving the world's problems. They think what they will watch from Netflix next. The people who want to help others will help whether they have a lot of money or not.
@@CaptainTitforce as I said you only have that as people are still stressing with work or keeping up with the jones but when you can UBI most of that will be gone as there wont be poverty. Its would be more akin to to getting rid of prohibition massive reduction in crime.
So my question regarding UBI is this:
What's to stop the private sector from just jacking up prices with knowledge of this?
"Oh hey, more people have money to buy food? Okay, let's jack up the price of food."
Landlords would have a field day with this, and so on.
Couldn't the same argument be made if people were just being paid more? The issue here isn't that UBI is the problem.
@@theodis8134 yes, but a rich guy can only eat so much food per day. If *everyone* were to get some amount of money, well, the money is being evenly distributed, so, stuff people *need* gets bought more often--I.E. rent, food, etc.
Inflation in "stuff only rich people can afford" is one thing.
Inflation in "stuff everyone needs" is a different story.
"Oh hey, more people have money to buy food? Okay, let's jack up the price of food"
The total cost of producing food remains the same due to the government subsidies mandating a certain amount of production, while total revenue drops due to demand falling faster than the price increases. Result - less profit, more wastage, everyone ends up poorer and/or less fed. Massive amounts of food are already being thrown out since it's not getting sold to the customer.
"If everyone were to get some amount of money, well, the money is being evenly distributed, so, stuff people need gets bought more often--I.E. rent, food, etc."
You're describing a situation where part of the populace is being underfed or starving already. Isn't that the thing that food stamps are supposed to solve? Something that would no longer be needed since they could just be replaced by UBI instead?
I just feel like UBI is more of a workaround than an actual fix. If the system is broken rather than just give money to people directly why not instead invest that money to improve said system? Are people getting into student debt? Make education free! People can't pay the bills? reduce them! Else it's like we're accepting "yeah, society is broken, here's some money for your troubles"
Holy shit, go to school, take economics, people like you are destroying society.
yeah, ubi has to be partnered with a big set of regulations (that are very much needed) to actually work as intended
Labor is vastly devalued because companies know that if someone doesn't have work they go homeless and starve. If people's needs are met, companies can no longer force wages down through coercion, and will be forced to pay people what their labor is worth or they will have no workers.
@@theodis8134 you couldn't be further from the truth.. labor is devalued because you let in hundreds of thousands of illegals monthly willing to work for 10% of your wage, labor ia devalued because you purchase everything from Chinese and other 3rd world slaves, driving prices so low that non slaves and regular living wages cant compete, YOU voted to use slave labor the second YOU bought your apple device, your Samsung device, your plastic crap you bought put mom and pop out of business.
"How many wars are ended by words?"
"All of them."
I think the reduced damage from people smarter then me not having to flip burgers will more then make up for the cost alone.
But since that lowers the potential for exploitation it's bad for billionaires so we will never see it.
It's good for billionaires because people have more cash to spend at corps
@@icecreamman1337 the funds for UBI need to come from somewhere and that's likely (and ideally) gonna come be billionaires and corporations so, even if regular people have more money to spend, driving up revenue, it's still likely gonna cut into billionaires profits (which i absolutely dont mind jtbc).
@@icecreamman1337 And why would that be exactly if you are no longer forced to work for the billionaire who channels all the profit of your work into his account?
Exploiting workers is clearly more profitable. Or do you think Bezos only treats them so miserable because he is pure evil?
@@nanatzayaits trillionaires now not billionaires, when you have that amount of wealth losing a buck or two is well worth the control you get from the dependence on your free money.
@@vvillhelmzecheekclapper7984 there arent any trillionaires (yet). Also: what you are trying to describe is what we have now. Billionaires letting us have some of their money so they can excert influence on regular people. It's called "work". The UBI is different from that as, as the name suggests, there are no expectations for those receiving UBI. If UBI comes with a catch, it's no UBI. It would be just another form of exploitation.
UBI isn't even a conversation about economics. It should be a conversation about philosophy and civil engineering.
A society that has UBI is most likely going to collapse unless some other incentives are given to do the jobs that most people don't want to do.
Currently that is done by a person needing money and a market has need of that person's time so they will pay for it. UBI removes that necessity.
Universally, no one wants to clean the sewers or maintain the vast network of plumbing most cities require, but god DAMN does someone need to do it.
or instead of collapsing the society it would finally force those holding the money to pay their workers what their work is actually worth and not as little as they're allowed by law
The goal should be to attempt to make things easier for the next generation. My parents worked their asses off after coming to the US. I got to start in the US with not too much but this was a huge advantage. From there I now make quite a bit of money as an engineer and I am able to take care of my parents since they don't really have anything for retirement. I will use whatever resources I have remaining to give my kids the best head start I can. But a foundation needs to be put in. If I just blindly give kids money and resources then this will probably be a disaster (look at spoiled rich kids who were handed their parents fortune). UBI can be a good thing if implemented in an intelligent way. We can totally get a society of thinkers and workers still even though there is a base level of goods and resources provided. I think some people will be lazy and try to live with just the UBI but I also think most people do not want to live at the lowest level of society and with the minimum resources to get by. I think most people want to try to achieve more and will take their UBI and attempt to use it to achieve something greater. Or maybe that's just me that wants to achieve something greater and most people are lazy. I have no idea.
The main thing that puts me against UBI is the people in charge of these programs cannot be trusted to run the system fairly and without corruption. The idea is likely implemented with good intentions but the people that will run it are corrupt and evil and will make wealth distribution even worse probably. Hopefully these issues can be solved before robots take over ALL the work
With UBI you don't need anyone to run the system 'fairly' because UBI inherently has no 'fairness' to consider. Everyone is paid out the same amount. You can even automate that.
@@Dharengo exactly. You're actually removing corruption from the system that way.
Regarding 'lazy' people living of just that UBI, IMO that's actually a good thing. Forcing inherently lazy people to work usually results in shoddy work that frequently causes more harm than good.
That said, noone is really inherently lazy, people are MADE lazy by society by not applying motivators or even applying demotivators at just the right time.
@Dharengo my mother in law is on government programs for being blind and sometimes the money doesn't show up or she gets less than what she's supposed to get and we need to go through all sorts of crazy crap to prove the government screwed up sobshe can get her money to live. I don't trust that same government to now give money to everyone if they can't even get the small number of people they handle now correctly. I wish I could trust them to do the job but I have seen them fail so many times the trust is gone
@sascharambeaud1609 my brother in inherently lazy. He helps no one and just sleeps all the time. He doesn't really do much at all even though he is in his 30s and should be helping me and my sister take care of our parents. I would say he is inherently lazy. We didn't have a lot growing up and had to earn everything, hechust accepted not having much and put no effort to get more. That's whyvi said most people would not accept living at the bottom but I know some will. Luckily I don't believe there are too many people like that, my brother is the only person I know that is like this so a really small population
Thank you very much for bringing these clips to YT.