The imperfection of LDS prophets | with Leo Winegar
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- (If you don’t have time to watch this episode, as least watch from 14:30-onward :) You won’t regret it.)
We’re stoked to have Leo Winegar back on the show to talk about prophet fallibility. Leo talks about the importance of recognizing that prophets are fallible- they are far from perfect and may make mistakes. While the church is lead by God, the prophet is a mouthpiece and won’t always deliver or interpret things perfectly. As Sabrina says, if God wanted the church to be absolutely perfect, He likely wouldn’t have chosen imperfect humans to lead the church.
President Nelson has recently been emphasizing the importance of personal revelation, something that will help us to interpret the words of the prophets in a way that connects us with heaven.
Leo then talks about the need for us to avoid “congratulating” or “praising” those who are in leadership positions in the church. We can thank each other for rendering service but we need to remember that each person should have the intention of serving God, not of attaining any kind of glorious accomplishment.
Leo shares a personal vision that he has had and it is INCREDIBLE. Let us know what you learned from his vision in the comments below!
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After 60+ years in this church I'm convinced that Heavenly Father (and Christ) are not micro-managers.
Joseph Smith said: "There was one good man and that was Christ "
And Christ said call no one good but God lol. What great examples of humility!
@@102wingnut Exactly.
Love this episode. Appreciate all of the hosts comments and testimonies. It truly strengthens mine.
Thanks for watching. I hope we can connect one day.
Thank you so much for addressing this. I have many friends leaving and this is an answer to prayers ❤️
Hi Tammi, I'm glad we were able to provide some insight. I hope the very best for you and your loved ones.
Tammi, you should leave as well. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. Not a group of old men in Salt Lake City.
I remember going through this transition stage where we as a church really started talking more openly about the fact that prophets are human and make mistakes. I was about 19 years old when it was really catching on, at least from what I noticed. But now I feel like we have the next extreme on the list: I’ve seen so many people use the example of prophetic fallibility to reject all sorts of doctrines, including the doctrine of the family in the proclamation to the family. I really feel like what we need now is a little push in the other direction: prophets are indeed called on God and we should be very careful what sorts of things we dismiss as human error. It’s a balance we will never be able to perfect, obviously, and keeps us wrestling before God, which is good. But maybe it’s time to also have the conversation about why prophets are necessary.
But Born Again Bible Only Believers expect the prophets of God to be perfect or they won't accept them as God's prophets
And there's the problem. For No prophet of God that's been called of God is perfect except for Jesus Christ. So they accept Christ but reject the prophets because they are not as perfect as the Lord is..
I agree that this is a major issue for the church. Seems like everyone is talking about it lately and there is no consensus on how to handle prophetic fallibility. I made a video about it a few weeks ago on my channel ruclips.net/video/-MeDGIw66J0/видео.html . Prophetic fallibility is causing a major divide amongst the membership of the church.
Or, maybe, we could have the conversation about why prophets are unnecessary.
@@mikefoxtrot1314 No prophets? Well without prophets there is no vision and without vision the people perish in their own unbelief and soon fall into errors. So that's why God has the prophets in the Church. They regulate the church and make sure the doctrines of the gospel are taught....They are also the watchmen on the tower to warn the saints of spiritual dangers and how to avoid them.
@@germanslice According to church teachings, prophets do not have a monopoly on visions, doctrine, or the ability to navigate spiritual dangers. The gift of the Holy Ghost is supposed to provide faithful members with these abilities.
Great video, and MUCH needed in the world today for members especially!
Rachel is amazing and needs to be in an episode!! 🤍🤍 everyone like this video!!
😃
So, is Rachael like the Stevie of Good Mythical Morning?
The issue rests entirely with Faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is at the helm of His Church. I choose to follow the Lord's Prophet because of my faith in Christ.
Thank you for sharing your vision. It pierced my heart ❤️
Growing up in a bubble of the church it was easy to believe prophets were perfect, so I was surprised about somethings I learned, however, my testimony over road any surprises I’ve had. I’ve never doubted the church is true.
Such a good point. I think that historically leaders have been glorified or held to a non-human regard. But I'm glad that humanness is being celebrated these days:)
L8p 2
@@SaintsUnscripted 88🤔88888888888
You make doubt sound like a bad thing.
I really needed this video
Thanks for saying that, and I hope you can continue to find peace and healing throughout your life.
I met President Oaks at a wedding reception many years ago. He humbly introduced himself as "Brother" Oaks. He did not call attention to himself or claim to be special. I was with a friend who had recently been baptized. She was like "I KNOW who you are" in total fangirl mode like the clip at 11:16
It's the ongoing struggle and it's hard for people that are struggling and trying to find their way. We're told that the Prophet will not lead the church astray, and if they do, they will be replaced because God is in control. We live too much on Mormon Myth and opinion, including me, but people around me are teaching me that. So we have to try and do the best we can to tell the facts. Speculation doesn't help anyone and that's where we're the most human. Old Testament prophets did stupid things, one of them got drunk and naked and slept with their daughters so his daughters could have kids. Another had relationships with his Son's (the curse of Ham), the Old Testament is really warped, but during that time the Word of Wisdom didn't exist, God in that time, I guess didn't have a problem with alcohol and getting drunk. Who knows why but, it was what existed at the time. We're clearly expected to live the highest law God has with the exception of the law of consecration which we'll never be able to live in mortality, it's impossible but, like Elder Holland said: "Man isn't perfect, it must be incredibly frustrating to our Heavenly Father but we're all he has to work with, so be patient". Well, something really similar to that. The imperfections or foulable acts today are NOTHING compared to warped Old Testament stuff, that's really bad and God kept working with them. It's pretty crazy but, yeah, we're all He has to work with so he has to make do
Excellent.
Go Rachel!
Everybody is fallable!
The interesting thing is that the grace of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ can create so much purpose and even goodness out of my mistakes that it's almost hard for me to consider my fallibilities mistakes at times. For example, I believe it was Abraham and Sarah's impatience in waiting for the Lord to deliver on His promise, that Sarah tried to bring it about herself by having Abraham conceive Ishmael through her servant. Could be considered a mistake, but without that happening, how would the events of these last days be coming to pass without the contentious relationship between the Jews and Ishmael's descendants.
Joseph Smith made a mistake with the lost manuscript, but in God's infinite wisdom and grace he had not only already prepared a solution, it was through that experience that Joseph Smith learned a great lesson in trusting and fearing God more than man.
Brigham Young not letting African-Americans hold the priesthood was a big stumbling block for me, but I knew that the Book of Mormon was true so everything else I just trusted that things would be revealed in time.
I wish they would discuss what would have happened if they did except African Americans AT THAT MOMENT? I think timing was an important factor.. ie they were already being persecuted. I think it was like a patience thing I guess, which is really not great.
@@jenniferglover9905 what, in your mind, so you assume would have been the result?
@Robert long This sounds a lot like blind obedience. I’d recommend being an active participant and critically thinking about the decision your leaders make. In fact, you should do this BECAUSE you believe the Book of Mormon is true. Let the Book of Mormon and your relationship with God be your guide.
@@latterdayskeptic who are you talking to here?
@@DannyAGray sorry, it’s directed at the OP
Tha k you for sharing. I loved your explanation
Thank you!
While I've never once deified church leaders, I see nothing wrong with seeing them as celebrities. They are really cool and have a heavy burden on their shoulders. But I think the key is to love and appreciate their humanity and normalcy. As a temple cleaner several years ago, it was always stressed to us to never bother the brethren when they came in, almost to the point of telling us to keep our heads down when we saw them. But I was shocked at how often the brethren would seek us out and just chat or crash jokes. And I'll never forget seeing L. Tom Perry come in late for a sealing he was officiating, wearing a hoola shirt before he changed clothes. Likewise, I'll never forget a former General RS president tell my mother-in-law she was a pathetic custodian for a bathroom overflowing at the distribution center, when my mother-in-law is the church's #1 custodian.
It's hit and miss, but they are all called of God.
In every church and belief there are good and loving people and people that are the opposite of that. When I was catholic we had a 60 year old priest who was very unfriendly to younger girls.
We have to remember that no human being is perfect.
Even a guy who helps homeless people has his weaknesses and problems.
I agree with you.
Someone spoke at a ward I was in in Idaho, he said he had once been Pres. Monson's bodyguard. He had some funny stories.
“Never in the history of the people have the saints gone wrong or gone astray while following the lead of the Presidency and general authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Never in the world will the people go wrong or go astray and fall by the wayside, if they will continue to follow the lead of these men of God; and I want to suggest that we look to the Presidency of the Church, and the leading quorums of the Priesthood, as true indicators of the way the Lord would have us walk. They are indeed God’s Liahona.”
Elder Hyrum M. Smith
Conference Report, Apr. 1908, Page 34
“Keep your eye on the President of this Church. If he tells you to do anything and it is wrong and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it. But you don’t need to worry; the Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead this people astray.”
President Heber J. Grant as quoted by President Marion G. Romney
Conference Report, Oct. 1960, Page 78
“Let us watch the prophet, listen to him, follow him, and we will never go astray.”
Elder Teddy E. Brewerton
General Conference, Apr. 1984
“No man ever went astray by following the counsel of the authorities of the Church. No man who ever followed the teachings or took advice or counsel from the one who stands as the representative of the Lord ever went astray; but men who have refused to accept counsel have gone astray and into forbidden paths.”
President Joseph Fielding Smith
Conference Report, Oct. 1912, Page 124
I don't think the prophets and general leadership of the church would agree with you. I can go on with quote after quote from church leaders indicating that they will NOT err, and that you will NOT err if you heed them. I think this idea of "fallible leadership" is a novel concept born of the Internet, given church history has never been easier to access, and from outside of the curated filter applied by the church handbooks.
Nelson is an interesting case study in this phenomenon. Between the contradictory homosexual statements made by church authorities and CES leadership, the pandemic/vaccination debacle, his push to eliminate "Mormon" as a name for the church from the Mormon lexicon, in comparison to easily accessed talks, videos, media, the "I'm a Mormon" campaign, the "Meet the Mormons" movie the church spent a pretty penny to product, etc, I think the church is finding it harder and harder than ever to bury the unsavory, and now have to change course and find ways to mitigate damage and negative press incurred by things that would have otherwise been forgotten by time.
None of the quotes you selected talk about not erring. Rather, The phrase most commonly used is that you will not be led astray.
There may be other quotes that more directly talk about erring. But the theme is being led astray.
Remember the wrong road parable they cited.
Following the prophet will always bring you closer to Christ.
When people fail in the church they choose to do so with their free agency!
Never before have I seen a divide in the church, like I do now! In my Ward some families are choosing to promote LGBTQ by allowing there gay 14 year old daughter to wear men's suits to church! She has been choosing to go after the young 🌱 girl's in our ward, making them extremally uncomfortable asking them if they like girls instead of boy's ❗ We also have people in the church that feel abortion is ok!
So while people are choosing to bring the world 🌎 into the church, there are those of us who see it, for what it is because we have stayed close to the spirit of the Lord!
We have all been baptized and confirmed, with the holy ghost and if we stay in tune we personally won't be lead astray! But I'm tired of liberals infiltratrating into the church trying to destroy the restored gospel! They can go to another church that embraces liberal ideology! But instead there trying to change our belief system, and that's apostate! The Lord has promised us that our prophet would be removed if he went astray! I follow the prophet and do what he says ,but not when it came to the Covid vaccine! I prayed about it and I never felt I needed to get it so I didn't! We have free agency, and so does our prophet! I trust he will guide us to be closer to the Lord 🙏🏻🙏🏿🙏🏽🙏🏾🙏🏼
I like to look at a variety of statements from prophets on this topic - in a holistic, balanced, and comprehensive way.
Can I just be SUPER picky about the "Mormon" issue for a minute? President Nelson didn't just come out and say that using the term "Mormon" is a sin and we'd all be dammed for it. He explained deep truths to help us all understand the importance of the correction, and lovingly encouraged all of us - including our friends in the media and outside of the church - to do what we can to make those changes in and for ourselves. Nothing about his statement is wrong; we can all do better and show more respect for the Lord. Is that really an error in your mind? What other examples did you cite that probably likewise fall under the idea of trying to help us find those corrections?
@@kimballmanner7192 Going astray = erring. Splitting hairs doesn't change the core issue of serious prophetic error. Prophets and apostles have clearly made grave mistakes that they shouldn't have if they had the spirit of prophecy. These mistakes did indeed cause the members to err, and this apostasy has only been increasing over time.
A prophet is simply one whose prophesies come from God and because of that, they come to pass. Nothing complicated about that. Anybody who does not fit this description cannot be called a prophet. Offices such as "authority", "teacher", "leader" and the like would be more appropriate as they basically allow, in the widest sense, for the commission of "mistakes". One other thought. Sincere and heartfelt apologies for nasty mistakes, especially those that bring immense pain and suffering, are to be commended. That's an obvious and courageous part of true repentance and atonement.
Leo - At the end of the video you talked about a vision you had. Were you asleep when this vision occurred? Were you meditating? Also, is there a difference between a dream and a vision?
Hi Harry, the visions I've had were during the day. They happen while I'm being quiet and I'm trying to be open to spiritual knowledge. For me, visions are very different from dreaming, or from using my imagination. The visionary experiences I've had weren't expected and they completely changed/opened my mind.
@@Leowinegar Thanks for responding, Leo. Do you think dreams can have the same effect on people? Meaning, can they change/open their minds? Also, do you think certain people are more prone to visions than others? I’m genuinely interested in people who experience visions. I’d like to understand why some people experience them while others don’t.
@@harryhenderson2479 Dreams can certainly have an impact, but there's something special about a vision. The fact that they happen while you're awake, and in my case I wasn't on any medication or sick, etc. They only happened after I had spent time praying and asking for revelation. It's also interesting how I've never had a vision that's secular in nature. i.e. seeing something that has nothing to do with God, the Church, my spiritual growth, etc. If my visions were simply products of a "frenzied mind" (Alma 30), then I'd expect them to happen in a variety of ways and situations.
I'd be interested in reviewing any research done on the physiology/neurology of those who claim to have visions. If you're aware of any research that can provide a secular explanation, I'm all ears.
My personal feeling about why some people experience visions and others don't? Is that genuine visions (not hallucinations due to drugs, etc.) happen for those who seek spiritual knowledge from God.
And yes, I think people across a variety of religious traditions and cultures can experience dreams, visions, etc. that are from God. I think that our Heavenly Parents are merciful and communicate with any sincere seeker.
Wonderful post!☀️💕
Glad you enjoyed it
No one believes the prophet is perfect. That’s a straw man. The question people are beginning to ask though is what to do when you believe leadership is making a mistake? Many members believe the leadership is mistaken about gay marriage for example. What should a member do when they think the leadership is going “down the wrong road”?
Start by not assuming it's the wrong road; I'd say that's probably the most important step. Lean not into your own understanding (opinions). Second, take it to the lord over and over and over again. If you are hoping for change, while you wait, stand by your faith and your sustaining of the leaders in general, and stand in holy places. If you can, go often to the temple, leaving all opinions and concerns aside and just be with the lord. Let Him teach you. Don't go off thinking you need to be a rioter or an advocate for anything other than honoring the lord and his church.
@@DannyAGray do you believe there is a right way to enact change in the church? For example, if you prayed about the priesthood ban and felt the lord confirm that it was the wrong road, knowing your leaders could be wrong, what would you do?
@@latterdayskeptic my friend, my answer might very well piss you off - you've been warned:
I don't believe church leaders are infallible at all. They make mistakes. But when we talk about the priesthood ban, it should be remembered that the Lord could have changed that at any time. Several prophets wrote that they petitioned the Lord to rescind the ban and were told it wasn't time. So while the policy of a ban may have been wrong in whatever way, it was wisdom in the Lord and His purposes to remove the ban when he did.
With this information in mind, I don't agree with any kind of boycott or protest or anything of the sort. We are pretty pompous if we think our ideal of the world is greater than the will and timing of God.
But in your hypothetical situation here what I would do: first, I'd immediately question why the Lord was telling me such things and not church leaders. That's not to assume they are getting it wrong; on the contrary, I want to live the Lord's will. Second, I'd ask the Lord what He intended me to do with the information. I would expect some kind of response along the lines of making sure I'm treating everyone as equal, not looking down on anyone effected by the ban, and how I can more involve them in church service; but I might also consider petitioning church leaders for better understanding on my questions as well as petitioning for my banned brothers and sisters respectfully. I have a hard time believing that the ban didn't heavily burden church leaders of the time; I would ask for a blessing of comfort, as well as a blessing on them, as we all endured the trial.
But I think the most important thing is to remain faithful and true and believing that the Lord has the pulse of His church and He carefully guides it.
@@DannyAGray You’re missing the point when you say things like “we’re pretty pompous to think our will is greater than God’s will”. The whole point of the argument is what do you do when you believe God has communicated something to you that is in opposition to what the leadership says?
@@latterdayskeptic I resent the idea that you think I'm missing the point. I've been through occasions with church leaders where I knew without a doubt they were wrong. I've been through events where I had firm and unshakable witnesses of something, and was still told otherwise by leaders. In each occasion, I petitioned for reconsideration, sometimes succeeding and other times not, but in every occasion I prayed to the Lord to give me patience to see it through according to His will and I was always granted that patience! Don't ever assume you know what I've been through or how well I know dealing with hard things! This church is fun by God whether you agree with it or not, and His will always wins out over man's limited sight. And the sooner you come to see that, the sooner you'll realize that this church isn't a democracy that changes under the whim of what feels right in the moment. Stop worrying whether the priesthood ban, or polygamy, or anything else was right or wrong and start having more faith in God rather than in man.
I love your content, it is very uplifting. Could you do something about the echo with microphones, please?
Dallin H. Oaks said that you cannot criticize the Prophet even if he may be wrong.
Well you hit 400 likes 👍
Liked. It's now at 363. :)
I was 370. C'mon guys!
Nice! Thanks for the Like! :)
Glad I watched this one! Great analogy taught in his vision.
Thanks for the kind words. I hope this video can help more church members who are struggling.
I’m going to preface this with, I am not an LDS member, but have recently started learning more about the beliefs of this church.
My main contention with this video is that the hosts seem to be conflating human fallibility with divine prophecy. On the one hand you have human fallibility in the form of making mistakes; turning left when you needed to go right, parking over a line in a parking spot, not packing enough snacks for the kids, etc. On the other hand you have divine prophecy; speaking to the people in the name of and by the authority of the Lord. Based on my understanding from Duet. 18:21-22 mainly, when a prophet indicates that something came from God, then whatever it is shall come to pass.
Based on my understanding from this video a “Prophet of the church” indicates a teaching that is divinely inspired and then some time later, whether it be months, years, or decades, they come out and state that we’ve had a new revelation that this teaching was wrong. So the question is, which is it? Is it a mistake that can be attributed to human fallibility, or is it a divine revelation. It can’t be both in this case. I understand the analogy of the “wrong road,” but I don’t think that really alleviates the main thrust of my claim. Which is it can’t be both divine prophecy and human fallibility. Throughout the whole Old Testament, the true prophets are never shown to have erred in their prophetic sayings
On another note, Jonah didn’t really make a mistake, he made a conscious decision to be disobedient to the word of God and he paid the price for that. I would tend to view a mistake and a conscious decision in different lights. I understand how the argument can be made, I just think that it is a bad argument.
Policy vs doctrine. In regards to the priesthood ban, I believe it was a policy. Not a core belief.
@@thatonedude.8440 did you reply to the correct post? Your response doesn’t seem to address my post. If it is under the correct post, would you please clarify your statement?
That's true. Church members are taught two contradictory ideas: 1) Prophets are God's mouthpiece on Earth, and we should follow them as we do God 2) Prophets are imperfect and make understandable human mistakes. Classic doublethink. But it's so ingrained in the church that many members do it without thinking. They intellectually acknowledge that prophets can be flawed, but also believe that they've been commanded to follow these flawed men. They fail to hold the prophets accountable to moral standards that the general membership is expected to follow.
I say all this as a member of the church. I believe church leaders (in the past) have said and done truly prophetic things. But modern church leaders are clearly not acting as God's representatives anymore. And the idea that prophets can never lead anyone astray is just false, both Biblically and in reality.
I see what you’re saying and I can understand the points you made but at the end of the day Prophets are divinely chosen by God for specific times and purposes, but all prophets have made errors. If God wanted perfection, he wouldn’t have allowed man the responsibilities given. But really it’s growth and learning he’s looking for.
@@thatonedude.8440 I understand what you are saying, and I’m not suggesting that prophets in and of themselves are perfect. The only perfect man to have walked this earth is Jesus. What I am saying is that you can’t have divine prophecy and human error coexisting. Either a proclamation is divinely inspired and free from error throughout all time, or it is not. If a teaching that is supposedly from a prophet and divinely inspired is reversed, then that teaching was not of God, and therefore the prophet is false. I would again point you to Deuteronomy 18:21-22, “…even though a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if his oracle is not fulfilled or verified, it is an oracle which the Lord did not speak.” I would argue that if a teaching which comes from one of your prophets is reversed or changed then that teaching was not verified, and therefore the prophet was a false prophet. I’m not trying to be incendiary here, but just taking the points to their logical conclusion. What teachings or prophecies from the Old Testament prophets were ever shown to be in error?
Now to your point about human error, I would agree. Even Moses, the first true prophet of God to his people made errors, but none of his errors were in his teachings. They were in his actions, and he made many of them. Going back to my point, divine prophecy and human error at the same time are antithetical to each other.
The set and costume designers of this podcast really like pastels.
I don’t think we’ve ever organised outfits with each other 😂 every day we film it’s a surprise what the other hosts are wearing
Savage, Cardon, just savage
@@CalebChilcutt I still get surprised when I show up to work wearing the same thing as someone else too. I mean, we wear uniforms, but I'm still surprised any of us put up with it.
Hey Cardon.
I love and respect the prophet.
But at the end of the day we have to remember that no human being is perfect.
Heavenly father bless you all
So should we or should we not trust everything he says
Great video! I love the message of not condemning.
But the question remains, should we blindly follow prophets if we believe they're making a mistake? At what is it appropriate for members to advocate for change?
Hey Noah, I don't blindly follow, at least I try not to. I've wrestled with a variety of difficult teachings and policies and I've felt inspired in different ways. Most of the inspiration I've received is around the idea that the Restoration is ongoing and that God "will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." (AoF 9).
That’s great! I try not to either. The question is really more, is it appropriate to raise our voices if we have concerns?
@@GadiantonsRobber I've raised my voice and I wrote about my experience here:
docs.google.com/document/d/1dA83TBkqv7HlFIacBhrPYy8fv8gsngy-qAOVOEQD_eI/edit?usp=sharing
@@GadiantonsRobber , I believe it depends on how we give feedback. Once on my mission I strongly condemned what I thought was a poor decision by a stake president. My mission president called me to repentance & told me to read every verse about apostasy in the topical guide. After years of pondering about the question, I believe that any member can in good faith share with any Church leader their opinion on any policy or decision if done respectfully & (I believe most importantly) acknowledging that they are the ones with the current stewardship & responsibility to make the decision. If it's not our stewardship, we can share our thoughts respectfully, but we should never think the person with the stewardship must do what we say. Essentially, it's their turn to make the mistakes. I strongly believe that good leaders listen to advice, but they are still the ones who need to make the decisions. I feel at times that I am correct & some leader is incorrect, but it's their current calling, so theirs is the right decision at the moment. I really like the point made in this video that if God wanted His Church to function perfectly, He wouldn't have imperfect people run it. It's going to be a wobbly journey at times. Essentially, please speak up, but only if respectful & not expecting.
Hello Noah, i think if there is a decision as to how to use the ward budget, yes leave it to the one with the stewardship to make the final decision. BUT if leaders want You to do or believe something You feel wrong, please don't follow them. Example, lgbt exclusion policy. I think God can tell us what is correct, and he expects us to speak up and not be afraid to men with mistakes no matter if they want to call themselves prophets. At the end i believe God Will ask us what You did with your mind, imagine telling him: i didnt do anything i was afraid and only obeyed others. He Will answer You as he did to the one who received only one talent and hid it. Your mind and your capacity of decision and reason despiste who is ordering, is your only talent You Will bring back to him who created You.
Why do you believe that Smith is a prophet and have song worship him. What happened when Moses came down the mountain. I think this is what the Mormon church is
There is no worship song of Joseph Smith
@@vendingdudes what do you call praise to the man? I mean it is worshiping him
Praising isn’t worshiping. Especially in the way that song used it. We simply show our deep respect for him. As we do with all prophets. Not worshipping.
I agree with the idea behind this video, and I teach the same principle to others. HOWEVER, (I regret that this wasn't covered better in this video) this necessarily means that whenever the prophets say something, we cannot be CERTAIN that their current teaching is NOT a "wrong road"/learning experience. Doesn't this thinking justify us standing up whenever we think the prophets are wrong and urging them back onto the correct road? Is that not "steadying the ark" (of the covenant)? I believe prophets are fallible, and yet this is a hard doctrine to pair with "follow the prophet," and "the prophet will never lead you astray."
Thank you for sharing. I wish I had more time to explain my feelings in the video. I personally feel like our default position should be one of trust when it comes to the teachings of the living prophet. I follow them, but definitely not blindly. If something they teach doesn't immediately resonate, then I wrestle with it and go to my Father in Heaven in prayer. When I've done that, I've often received wonderful answers that help me to be patient and give me greater love and respect for our inspired leaders.
@@Leowinegar I agree with this default position as well. That is the same approach I take. Seems like it could have been cut into this video.
@@talkofchrist Yes, good point. Maybe I can be invited back or you could go in my place and clarify. :)
@@Leowinegar I'm hoping our comments will be noticed by those watching with this concern. 😊 Probably almost as helpful as an additional video. If you get invited back (we hope), it probably won't do for you to correct statements on old videos.
I think many people use the "never lead astray" quote without looking at the historical context, which was about new revelation/scripture changing the practice of Plural Marriage. Previous talks were about how such required the unanimous confirmation of the presiding quorums, and the following talk was about how the President of the Church could be removed from his position.
So, if prophets make mistakes, but they Say they won't lead us astray, and i feel they are mistaken, as Sabrina said, and Even the Lord Will give us wrong roads (by the way... What the heck) ... Wait i feel this is wrong, God can't lead You astray or he Will stop being God... mmmm so what Holland said is wrong, so this can lead astray, cuz why would i pray to God to guide me if he can if he may, give me a wrong answer, then i can't trust God now? This doesnt make sense. Sabrina, if You feel something is wrong don't follow it, no matter if self proclaimed prophets tell You, or it seems Even God, for he gave us our minds to reason and decide, not only to be acted upon.
Was Adam not a prophet? He knew God personally and he made mistakes.
Adam was almost definitely a fictional character in an ancient metaphor about the purpose of life.
Adam was Adam. He was a man. For people to put so much trust and faith in men and their works is to dilute their faith away from Jesus.
I posted a comment on my feelings and my experience about the church and the covid vaccination, and this channel removed my comment. I was reaching out and searching for a response to help me, but since you are so disingenuous I have quit trying. Not cool guys!
Why not orthodox Christianity tho
Within a year of joining the LDS church I had a really bad case of buyer's remorse. Now two years after my LDS baptism I'm actively exploring Orthodoxy and so far like what I'm finding.
@@democraticpatriot2657 You can't treat the gospel like walking into a department store and then demmanding to the Lord that the church bows down and serves and pampers all your whims like you get in the world. That's not how the restored gospel of Jesus Christ works. The Lord will pamper to nobody.... You come in the kingdom and told to serve the Lord, and do his will not the other way around. The Lord will not serve the standards of the world to please the customer like you get in the department stores........
The World teaches that the customer is always right and should always be pleased and pampered, but the Lord teaches the complete opposite that those who come into his kingdom their ways of the world are never right because the Lords ways are more higher up than our ways than the worlds ways of pleasing everybody, for only the Lord knows what is right for the people and when you learn that, you learn to do things the Lord's way and not do things all your own way....For the Lord won't do things all our own way to please everybody because he has got higher
standards.....That's why in Zion you can only do what the Lord allows you to do according to his standards, that's why the worlds standards of just pleasing the customer are not found in Zion. You find that you are only taught to please only the Lord.
@@germanslice So when the church lifted the priesthood ban to appease the civil rights movement and get BYU unbanned from competing, or when they backtracked their policy on children of LGBTQ parents, you’re sure that had nothing to do with pleasing and pampering the customer? Give it ten or fifteen years. The church will eventually bow to appease LGBTQ, just like they did in 1978 to appease the civil rights movement. Anything to encourage in flow of tithing.
@@ManInThePandaMask
You cannot think in worldly ways when it comes to God... For his ways are different to our ways. And I don't believe God is going to change the doctrine on marriage and family. The Church leaders have made this clear through Dallin H Oaks, one of the Lord's servants that the doctrine on Marriage and the Family is not going to change to suit the changing trends of the world. That is why the ban on gay relationships and same sex marriage is still in force.
@@ManInThePandaMask I think one difference between the priesthood ban and current LGBT policy is one revolved around a skin color and the other has to do with behavior. I don't have good answers for the big picture questions as far as why certain things apparently matter in the eternities. But I can at least fathom why those two policies are different. It's hard man
I respect your religion I used to be Mormon but I left the church for reason
I have grown up seeing both sides of the coin so to speak. My Mom was inactive and married outside the church my Dad was married to my Mom for three years and then I came along. I grew up without my Dad in my life and without the priesthood. But my Grandmother went to church and she would invite us to church. We would attend church functions and have a great time. My Mom had a boyfriend she was engaged to, and he was more than willing to be my Dad. He drove by the La Temple and said I have a feeling I will be in that building one day. My Mom said that's my church's Temple. They married and a few years later we're sealed in the LA Temple!
I was finally baptized at 13 and life changed for me for the better! I had a testimony of my own and later I married in the LA Temple, and had three young adult children serve missions. In California, Florida and Canada. My oldest chose a not so righteous path, and his life has been nothing but miserable! He knows the church is true, but can't get passed sins he's committed. He said he knew he should of gone on a mission like all his brothers did! He married outside the church and is an alcoholic, nothing matters to him except liquor! He's almost completely walked away from all of his family, he gave up all his great friends from the church he desperately misses, he's constantly punishing himself and destroying his life. He can't seem to find his inner strength and courage to come back to church! He keeps his wife from the church, because he wants to continue with his bad habits of smoking and vaping and his drinking! He's killing himself a little everyday!
Me and my husband are Temple worker's every Friday and I am thankful to feel the peace 🕊️🙏🏻 only the Temple can bring!
🌷 When my son left the church for a non member girl , he had no clue, of what the world 🌍 would do to him and what he would actually become! Now he gives value to thing's in life, that don't matter! I pray for him but the miracle has to come on God's timing!
I have health problems and I have no idea if I will ever truly know my son again or if he will come back to the gospel, before I die! I just have to wait and see! May the spirit of God be with you, and heal you from those things that have taken you away from the gospel!💜🙏🏻🕊️ God loves you, never forget that he will always be waiting for you!
Everyone got their own reason for staying or going. Thanks for the continued respect though
For me as a convert it would be interesting to hear why you left the church.
Church is difficult but so good!
There was a previous comment that made this point but I'll reiterate. Practicing church member here.
Brigham said some stuff over the pulpit that we look back on and can call an ‘error’ of sorts. I also think that even when rationalizing in the most charitable of ways why the church enacted the priesthood ban, it lasted far far too long. I have made my peace with the church's priesthood ban and made sense of it/reconciled with it in my own way. I'll leave my reasoning for it off this youtube comment. Maybe if it would help somebody out here I can take a shot at it.
People look at this policy change that the church made and then assume anything the church teaches is up for debate. Where do we draw the line? Some things are obviously cultural and not of vital importance (priesthood holders always speak last in sacrament meeting, witnesses of the baptismal ordinance need to be priesthood holders, endowment presentation details, etc). But some things are of eternal relevance and matter.. right? I’m comfortable with my perspective on what the core doctrines of the church really are and where I draw the line between "cultural thing" and things that matter. But is it right? I always try to stay humble with these things. How are we supposed to know? I can empathize with why something like the inconsistent policy around the priesthood ban makes the whole thing fall apart for some people. Mistakes in a prophet’s personal life (Old Testament examples that were given in this video) are different from prophetically teaching ‘mistakes’ to the restored church.
Anyways. Just trying to empathize with people's perspectives and figure things out myself. I feel like this video didn't very squarely address the main issue people have with LDS prophets and church history. I did really like the scene you described at the end of the video. "Do not condemn my servants for operating with limited light." That generally sits really well with me. Who am I to think that I could have done any better.
Hi, thanks for sharing. It would be nice to connect with you more down the road.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I am in a slightly different place with the "mistake" idea. I don't think we, as mere mortals in this space and time, can or should judge what policy, revelation or procedure was a mistake. Even the big ones, like the priesthood ban. *We* may feel like it was a mistake, but we won't really really know that until we are on the other side and see the grand scheme of things. It's entirely possible that the policy was allowed to evolve and then devolve for reasons way beyond our level of faith and comprehension right now.
@@vendingdudes I agree with you. Thanks for commenting!
@@vendingdudes I'm open to that idea as well. It's nice to focus on our own mistakes before we start to look at others. But, when it comes to ministering to those who are doubting the Church, I've noticed how helpful it can be for us to talk openly about what might be an actual mistake made by a prophet. We talk all the time about prophets being imperfect, but until we actually study and review the history, and try to make a righteous judgment (which the scriptures ask us to do), then we will struggle to trust God's prophets on the earth.
For some church members, it's NOT helpful to analyze and talk about potential mistakes of prophets, but for others, it's quite healing. Openly talking about, and trying to truly see the humanity of our leaders is often what doubting members need the most.
With that said, I've noticed how some church members become too cynical and begin to lose all trust in the institution because of a few mistakes. They jump from one form of black and white thinking (prophets never make big mistakes), to prophets have no divine calling.
So, what I've seen through my research and many years of ministering, is that as a church we can really use a dose of humility and be a little more "gray" in our thinking when it comes to prophets. Seeing our prophets as special instruments, that can make serious mistakes, yet the Lord can work miracles through them, has helped me and many others like me. Thank you for the conversation and God bless you. :)
@@vendingdudes Yet we are commanded to "judge righteously". It's a given that we won't understand everything, yet most of us understand the gospel basics and how to live moral lives. When you abdicate your responsibility to judge, you become gullible.
The blacks and the priesthood issue is serious. I say this even while having a distain for social justice activism, which has basically destroyed the country. But the fact is, church leaders had a strong policy against black members for over 100 years. Many of them doubled down and taught it as doctrine. Then it all changed in 1978 (conveniently AFTER the civil rights movement took off). I can't honestly look at that and say I'm 100% confident in following the prophet. I will teach my children to have faith, but with that faith must come common sense and reason.
Rachel Rachel Rachel
I have learned that even making "mistakes" are necessary for us to learn and be still on the road that God wants us to be. I made many "mistakes" in my life that ultimately led me to receive bigger blessings down the road because I was trying to do what the spirit would tell me.
Was the encouragement of the covid vaccine wrong? Probably... But what if it was just a test? What if the test is to see if we can understand that leaders have opinions tha might be different from ours, what if was just to see who would prepare/ be willing to follow the prophet when the next pandemic hits?
I believe that God knows the end from the beginning therefore what is a mistake in God's eyes?
How can any intelligent person think encouragment to stop the pandemic be wrong?
@@brettmajeske3525 I don't know. Many think that way. I'm not on that boat though
@@brettmajeske3525 You're equating taking the shot with helping to stop the pandemic?
"I am so far from believing that any government upon this earth has constitutions and laws that are perfect, that I do not even believe that there is a single revelation, among the many God has given to the Church, that is perfect in its fulness. The revelations of God contain correct doctrine and principle, so far as they go; but it is impossible for the poor, weak, low, grovelling, sinful inhabitants of the earth to receive a revelation from the Almighty in all its perfections. He has to speak to us in a manner to meet the extent of our capacities, as we have to do with these benighted Lamanites; it would be of no benefit to talk to them as I am now speaking to you. Before you can enter into conversation with them and give them your ideas, you are under the necessity of condescending to their low estate, so far as communication is concerned, in order to exalt them.
You have to use the words they use, and address them in a manner to meet their capacities, in order to give them the knowledge you have to bestow. If an angel should come into this congregation, or visit any individual of it, and use the language he uses in heaven, what would we be benefitted? Not any, because we could not understand a word he said. When angels come to visit mortals, they have to condescend to and assume, more or less, the condition of mortals, they have to descend to our capacities in order to communicate with us. I make these remarks to show you that the kingdom of heaven is not yet complete upon the earth. Why? Because the people are not prepared to receive it in its completeness, for they are not complete or perfect themselves. " Brigham Young, "The Kingdom Of God," (8 July 1855) Journal of Discourses 2:314.
Personally I think - the more perfect the question - the more perfect the answer; just as 42 is the answer to the “ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything,” - The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. But it took another 7.5 million years for an enormous supercomputer named Deep Thought to just about work out the correct question.🤭
Nice reference lol
10 points
Let me begin by saying I know the church is true and her prophets are devinely chosen. I am an avid family history researcher and I was disheartened by the speed in which the transition from fh libraries to in home research happened. My concern was based on the lack of internet/computer availability for low income members. Thereby hampering their ability to do their fh research.
You do not KNOW the church is true. You BELIEVE the church is true. Mormonism is toxic to its members. Jesus only is the way.
The Bible is infallible. The true prophets in the Bible did not prophesy things that weren't true. A true prophet does not prophecy mistakes.
Weird how, when looking for prophetic mistakes, that the hosts go for two Old Testament prophets that have both been shown by historians to be most likely fictional.
From everything I’ve heard about prophets in this “they’re only human” context, it seems as though prophets are superfluous. What does a living prophet bring to earthly life that couldn’t be attained by the rank and file members on their own?
That's a fascinating position to take from someone whose never lived a day without a living prophet of God in the earth. It seems the world struggled pretty bad after the death of the apostles. Going back to that doesn't really seem ideal to me.
Bold claim about Abraham being fictional, but I won't get in to that. Prophets are mortal, normal men. They don't bring anything to this life of themselves. Their value is that they are supposed to receive counsel/guidance/revelation/visions from God to direct His people. Prophets alone are nothing. God directing prophets helps others do His will.
@@GadiantonsRobber but they sometimes get godly counsel wrong sometimes? I prefer to lean on my personal relationship with god for guidance, like the Book of Mormon teaches.
@@latterdayskeptic indeed. But without prophets there would be no Bible of Book of Mormon. Picking and choosing is tricky
@@latterdayskeptic indeed. But without prophets there would be no Bible of Book of Mormon. Picking and choosing is tricky
I think we should stop using the word “prophet”. There is no priesthood office of prophet. One cannot be ordained a prophet. Joseph Smith was ordained to the office of Apostle, not prophet. So why do we use it? Russell M Nelson is “the President” of the Church, not the “the Prophet”. We should stop calling him that. That’s my hot take for the day.
I agree.
431 Rachel
Then don’t say you are speaking for God. That’s what prophets do . Just too much wrong too much scandal too much change too many mistakes - nice people can only cover so much rot
The priesthood ban was a mistake. The Church is still true with our mistakes and all. Also, the members take the mistakes of the prophets and run with them. The Spirit will help us learn to live with the mistakes of others by reminding us of the atonement of Jesus Christ. If we all let God prevail there will still be mistakes but we will recover from them quickly. God has to let us make our own decisions to become like Him and that includes propbets. they will be held accountable for their actions.
No human being is perfect
But if the priesthood wasn't banned to the African people then they would have been wiped out and destroyed back in those early days of slavery because in those days the whites were seen as the ones having all the power and the african people were treated as their slaves so you can't give the priesthood out to all the africans people in those hostile dangerous conditions so that's why only a very small handful had received it before the ban was put in place. For God in his wisdom put a ban on the priesthood to preserve the African people so they wouldn't get destroyed by those who had the power of rights over them back in those early days. So this is the reason why I beileve God had waited in his wisdom until the conditions were more favourable and would lift the ban soon after the Equal Rights Movement of the 60's came in and things were more peaceful between the two groups. That's why in 1970's the priesthood ban was then lifted by God granting access to the priesthood.
@@germanslice This is an opinion, not doctrine. Are you a troll? What's your name? Come into the light or be quiet.
@@Rod_Johnson-Moroni-Saw-Me
What's your problem? I'm simply stating what God has already done in the Church. God in his wisdom and foreknowledge made that part of the church wait before finally lifting the ban on the Priesthood in 1976. . So its not just an opinion because its fact.God did make the church wait before lifting the ban through President Kimball.
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LIKES FOR RACHEL!!
Rachel 4 prez!
lame exemples but each his own
That vision is nice and sentimental but the church refuses to apologize for their mistakes, making that dream not really applicable