3:17 Reminds me of the famous Quincy Jones anecdote: in the 'Thriller' sessions, he always brought a nasty, cheap mono transistor radio-type speaker into the studio for playback. "It's got to sound good on that- that's how the majority of people will be listening to this".
I love the way the Master splits the hairs. Cocking his head to one side to discern the difference in the frequencies. And he has this amazing assistant, who is always there to fill in the gaps! I wish I could afford an assistant like that...
I still use my father's KEF Cantors from 1975. He used them high up horizontally, I use them in a small room now vertically. The KEF logo on the front rotates to match the orientation 😊
Cheers for this from a retired mastering engineer! I had my NS10M's in this orientation on my personal desktop for years, and got nothing but grief from my contemporaries. About a year ago, I relocated my home studio to a larger room, and relegated my Yamaha monitors stands off the desktop and in the customary horizontal position. Having them further apart has improved imaging, but this has to do with the fact they are slightly farther apart, not the orientation. Yamaha is correct. It does not matter a whit or a tiddle if they are vertical or horizontal. Just keep them off of a flat surface in either case. I also added a 1 octave step graphic EQ that allowed me to give them a nice 'HiFi' or loudness curve. In close proximity as designed, with this addition, reveals the little units are capable of surprising bass response, and there is no need to cover the tweeters in toilet paper. 😁 A simple flip of the switch allows me to go from flat to sweet. This has also pretty much eliminated the need for multiple monitor pairs. My primary use for these speakers in my personal studio is for archiving my analog library and restoring or remastering much of the same for 96 khz 24 bit wave. And the occasional multitracking for myself of 'backing tracks', something I have done since the 80's in order to perform 'live' without a band. I retired in 2018 after my company closed it's media division as far as in-house production and mastering after 22 years with them. All's well as ends better, as I am having far more fun being retired and working on my own projects! Cheers again!
Ideally, the tweeters should be at ear level for your listening position. Pick the most suitable mount orientation and angle using isolation to create triangle between ears and tweeters. That should get you close to the studio's listening position ie the track will sound closest to how it was intended.
Time alignment (tweeters & woofers to your ears) is a HUGE factor to hearing detail objectively, as you alluded to towards the end. And the more drivers in a speaker cabinet, the more difficult that can be. We're subconsciously actually more sensitive to phase response than to pitch.
We are sensitive to phase differences left and right for evolutuonary reasons ( where does the lion come from?), vertically not so much as it will only result in a slightly different frequency response.
I always mount NS-10s the way they are mounted in this video. The bass response should be slightly better when mounted vertically as well as the phase coherence between the woofer and tweeter, as already stated. Combine all that with keeping the tweeters on the outside and the sound will image better across the stereo spectrum. Now, all of this is probably more or less subtle, but I personally like to have things set up as correct as possible.
It depends on your height position of your ears. Your ears should be somewhere between the LF and the HF. If turning the speakers upside down fits this height, do so.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt No. It's tweeters out. And it doesn't reproduce sub frequencies but it does reproduce bass, especially when using a high quality, relatively powerful amplifier. Even Auratones can sound remarkably full, for what they are, with a good amp. And if I can find the detailed write up on the NS10s, explaining why they have a slightly more full response when mounted vertically, and why it's more beneficial to have the tweeters out, I'll link it.
@@TheMicrophoneChannel As I have stated, the speakers have no appreciable bass, no one but perhaps you denies this. What the speaker has is an exaggerated mid which can easily be manipulated by close proximity to any large surface. As for imaging, preferences aside, speakers always image better with tweeters in and it's common knowledge in the audiophile community. As I also stated, IF the speaker had bass orientation wouldn't matter. What you are talking about is mid/ crossover/ tweeter dispersion which is greater greater in most vertically oriented speakers so yes there will be a difference in orientation which is why we don't orient vertically designed speakers in a horizontal position. I hope this clears up my statement and position on the matter.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt bruh, everyone's listening space is different, everyone's distance from the monitors is different, everyone's source is different, everyone musical preferences are different. Standing waves and reflections off the desk they're sitting on, you walls, your ceiling height, everything - all contribute. To say one is better than the other is just plain silly. Your statement is just laughable - "speakers always image better with tweeters in and it's common knowledge in the audiophile community" -- Maybe "best for you", but not "best for someone else you've never met", there is no right way vs wrong way in this comment thread. Both can have positive and negative issues. I'd suggest you start listening to concentric / coaxial drivers and hopefully stop suffering from "knowitalism".
👌👌 As it is, if you listen to the final mix well on an NS10, it will turn out well everywhere, especially if the product is for radio or television stations. Years ago, almost all the studios where I have recorded had these speakers and they were placed both horizontally and vertically. Many studios had another couple of boxes to listen to after the product was finished. Greetings.
I loved listening to my mom's albums in the '70s and she had a wide ranging taste in music. She had Led Zepplin next to Arlow Guthrie... Nate King Cole... Johnny Cash... Fifth Dimension... Donavan, etc. She had an all in one consul (speakers, turn table, 8-track, radio).
I’ve recently come across your videos (and subscribed!), and I am heartened by your willingness and ability to examine the fine details of sound reproduction while still reminding us that all of this-ALL of this-is subjective. If I mount my studio monitors in the attic pointing down through air vents into my studio because I like the way it sounds, that is good enough. If I like the way it sounds, it’s good. If I don’t, it’s bad. Far too many people throw around the word “objectively” in these discussions. You don’t, and I love that.
Your comment reminds me of years ago when I saw someone's reasonably decent speakers placed tightly into the corners of their room. All wrong in theory as they excite more standing waves. Except it sounded really good, the main point being that you could be anywhere in the room and it sounded good, rather than just one 'sweet spot' listening position. I wouldn't say this is good for monitoring, but for enjoying music it's an option. DM
I've ben using my original 1978 Yamaha NS10s as main monitor for maybe 10 years now. I used them on 4 or 5 places since I bought them, and half of the time I've used them vertical, as they're supposed to be. The other half of the time(and right now) I'm using them horizontally. Never been able to hear a difference in response or performance. In other monitors I had with horns, the difference was obvious instantly when you flip them. People saying that the orientation is wrong, clearly doesn't know what they're talking about, and of course never used their ears(or had a pair of NS10s hahaha)
Great video. About monitors that have waveguides for the tweeters, many companies design their monitors to turn the tweeter 90 degrees so you can use them horizontally instead of vertically (ADAM Audio for example, not all models!!) without compromising the sound dispersion. About near field monitors in general, they are for monitoring at close proximity (1 meter or less). A small benefit of this concept is that the room acoustics are less noticeable because the sound only has to travel a distance of 1 meter at maximum to reach your ears. I don’t say that room isolation and treatment is unnecessary, it will benefit the sound for the better. It’s a sort of hack for people that don’t have a proper treated studio environment/room.
LOL Paul McCartney, how lucky to have your audience think of Paul when you talk and what a wonderful job of recording the Beatles did for the music industry. keep up the good work!
In addition to the "mids microscope" aspect of NS10s, I always understood the the main reason for having them is that virtually every pro studio on earth has them, and they thus serve as a reliable reference point for engineers who know them well. Great for mixing vocals. I wouldn't use them exclusively (I also have Genelecs), but mine have magic dust on them...I got them from the Townhouse studios (via funky junk) with a Quad 520f. Be Well.
My speakers are also installed horizontally. And I also used a pink noise to adjust my system using a Real time analyzer and a graphic equalizer to correct the deficiencies in my system as well as the acoustics of my room. It makes a big difference. My amplifier is an Electrocompaniet from the 80s.
I have an old pair of AR18's that are really useful for checking - kind of the precursor to NS10s as portable Hifi for mixing. I mostly work on my Genelec 1030a but they are a little 'veiled' in the upper mid at the crossover point even though excellent for me everywhere else. The AR show me that area perfectly - not to mention have a tight bass. Thanks for re-emphasising the phase aspect - I find speakers on their side super wide and weird, but thats me.
The first component HiFi system I heard was with a pair of AR-1 in 1969. My neighbor had the system and I was 14 yrs old. He played the best music on them too. Sgt Peppers, Simon and Garfunkel - Bookends, Are You Experienced. Those speakers sounded so good to me then. :)
I remember when the NS10M first appeared mid 1980s, as I recall their biggest selling point was that an NS10 sounded like an NS10 in almost every studio they were used in. This was the era of the freelance sound/mix engineer, who could be working in almost any studio from day to day. Other popular near field speakers seemed to interact with the room more thus sounded subtly different in different studios. The NS10 did not sound as accurate as other speakers but the sound was consistent so he/she had a known reference. The original NS10M had an acoustic material speaker ‘grill’, but engineers always took it off. The result was the speaker was very slightly bright, which lead to people putting a sheet of tissue paper over the tweeter. This lead to a discussions of how many sheets, what brand etc. It sounds mad but it happened! I remember one of the Lord-Alge brothers (sorry can’t remember which one) who said the NS10 only “sounded right” when it was so loud it was “farting” ie the bass driver hitting the end stop. Needless to say the bass drivers needed replacing very often when he was mixing. But his mixes sounded great so who am I to judge.
They used to replace the NS10 woofers every single day at A&M (Now Henson) studios. There was an aftermarket here in LA for less financially blessed studios, for cheaper than new NS10 woofers.
@@MobiusMinded we did mot replace them every day, but we had a big stock of spare drivers & swapped out when tired, the engineer/producer requested or when they inevitably died.
@@peters7949 ahh… I was at The Village at the time and this was the rumor. We swapped the out all the time too. Let’s not forget the “Fuse vs Non Fused” tweeter debate.
@@MobiusMinded I don’t recall the tweeter fuse debate, perhaps it was more of a USA issue. We did have Urei 813A main monitors in 3 of our studios; they had, what looked like light bulbs, in series with the drivers. They were actually Barretter resistors en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barretter. These glowed if the speakers were driven too hard, increasing their resistance & thus protecting the driver. They also served as a warning that they were too loud. These would blow from time to time & were much easier to replace than a driver. I recall a small JBL speaker in the 90s that had a similar device inside, that when driven too hard you could see, though the bass port, illuminating the inside of the speaker.
NS10's are the most critical speakers in my experience and was pleasantly surprised to hear him say what I learned 20+ years ago: If you can make your mix sound good on NS10's, then your mix will sound good on anything. This is why you'll notice most major recording studios had a pair of NS10's in them...
"If you can make your mix sound good on NS10's, then your mix will sound good on anything" This is a myth created just because they were kind of standard in studios. It is the skills of the person that matters, not the speakers. Room and environment is the most critical, then the skills....
@@rabarebra Hi, you seem to be misunderstanding my remark. NS10's are not just popular, they are critical in the sense that instead of pumping your mix through large JBLs, portable boom boxes, and running outside to your car to check your mix, if you get NS10's to sound good (obviously using your skills/ear because it's not easy), there's not much need to check the other monitors.
@@ShabbyBroom I am not a newbie but a engineer. Where did I mention any use of large speakers only? NS10's are not critical to use. There are a bunch of speakers on the market you can use along with larger speakers to check your mixes. Cheers from a Mastering engineer whom like to be anonymous.
If it sounds good on the Yamaha, music will sound good on any speaker because the Yamaha NS 10’s have a reverse fletcher munson curve. Not my idea, Eric Alexander from Tekton speakers said that. And that makes sense.
You are just... awesome. Enjoy your content for it's analytical side, humor, and education points. Your video where you show the DAW noise floor doesn't exist was excellent as well.
Also vertical orientation helps keeping the tweeter more or less at the same height as your ear, which is important for high frequencies (which are directional). So it would help with clarity and stereo imaging. And nice speakers BTW :D
I've turned speakers backwards! In the musical instrument business, you're producing, not reproducing. My instruments were organs and carillons. Both sounds have a large indirect component. "Speakers forward" often gave too much direct sound. It certainly puzzled a lot of customers, but they couldn't argue with the sound.
Having worked myself with a couple of NS10, I wouldn´t overlook the problem with frequency response as if it was a minor issue. Those dips and bumps in the highs may become a challenge when looking for a tonal balance. It´s not only a question of having the mix sounding "good" in the yamahas, it´s also about mixin while you are aware of which frequencies are boosted by this response, and which are atennuated. A complete mess of perception, in my opinion. I never got to feel comfortable with these. I have enjoyed some of the latest Genelec models, and my final choice for mixing has been Neumann KH120 + Kh750dsp- Measuring my mixing room and getting an "almost flat" response, at least in terms of tonal balance perception, adding an extended bass response down to 16Hz, finally got me having my mixes translate in many other places with much less struggle. The Neumanns offer a rather boring sound when you use them simply for listening to other music, but are surprisingly revealing in showing hidden details in records I had listened to a thousand times. The kind of tool that helps you to take decisions and achieve your goal sooner, and more confident.
We used to tape some tissue paper over the tweeters , they are very bright and fatiguing sounding speakers and are supposed to represent the average hifi speaker on the home . That was back in the late 80s early nineties. Horrid speakers , pretty much every studio had them . Thnx Eric McCartney 🙏🏼⭐️🥁
Nothing better than listening to a true subject matter expert debunking folklore from the unwashed masses. Please keep it up. The truth needs to see the light of day. Cheers
That has always been said of NS 10s. The speaker so lackluster that if it sounds good on them it'll sound better on anything else. I don't think they were even Studio Monitors originally. It's just that so many engineers and producers were using them as near fields that Yamaha jumped on the Band Wagon and started putting that on the front. The HS series are flatter, though not much better. But eventually White Coned Yamahas were ubiquitous in studios. So much so, that if they weren't in your studio, people questioned whether it was Pro, so of course I have them. And they look so cool. But, of course, I have to hear my mixes on a Jambox and in the car, headphones, etc... to really know what's going on. It was ever thus. Cassettes for the ride home.
I use my (upright) NS10s (hooked up to an old Alesis amp) for two reasons: in mono for balancing (theyre ruthless when balance is wrong or when wide sounds are not in phase), and to check if my bass is still there on smaller speakers (if not, I usually add a bit of distortion to bass in parallel to bring it up on smaller speakersets). Double checking on NS10's has saved me numerous times
Never noticed the resemblance to Paul until you mentioned it, but damn, don't know how I didn't observe it. BTW, I employ the 1st iteration of B&G's dipole, push-pull, planar magnetic, RD-57 built by Dave Graebener at Speakerlab, before B&G Corp was formed. It features a 54 inch long by 2 inch wide, diaphragm, 4 turn voice coil for Frequencies above 200Hz. Could never imagine them not vertical.
I used to work at a local radio station. For that I once had a workshop making jingles at the NOB. working in the studios of the public broadcaster. Equipment that makes you salivate as a local radio station technician. Made super cool jingles, you know how those things sound. But the tip of the NOB technician was that you can make a very nice final mix on this equipment. But if you can't follow it on a transistor radio, it makes no sense. So a speaker from an old cheap radio was literally connected to the mono bus. "If it sounds good on that, and can be followed, it's good"
For many years I used a pair of Canton Quinto510 Loudspeakers....and they did the job very well. Combined with my AKG K240 Studio headphones I think I was pretty good prepared to mix and record audio. I used my monitors so long and so intensive that I imediately identified any mistake in mix or recording. I knew exactly what I should be hearing. Since 3 years I changed to a pair of Yamaha HS 7 studio monitors and still I don't feel as secure and confident as I did on my (very old) Cantons. I guess it has to be some more years of matching my ears to the new monitors..... To conclude: I think you just need to KNOW WHAT YOU HEAR. And be able to make the right decisions from that knowledge. Great video, as always! Thank you very much!
We've never seen all three of them in the same room, have we? We couldn't even trust a photo of them together at Abbey Road, he could have had his AI assistant stitch their pictures together.
Before I lost my hearing upper register the monitor's tweeters always had to be square-on perpendicular & equidistant. Vertical has advantage I find better viewing through controlroom window
Someone one bought a bass guitar from a Music shop and was really impressed. So i went to the music shop and mentioned that someone I knew had bought a bass guitar from them and it was great and they were happy, And the shop assistant chirped up and was clearly proud to hear about a happy customer, then I said I was confused, I didnt realize there was such a thing as a bass guitar that didnt sound good..... The speakers a fine, Our heads are all wrong....
I am glad you got the path changes right. Since there are 2 drivers not one, your movement will change the length of the sound has to travel, and since you rarely move up and down but a lot side to side, a vertical orientation is better (as with 99% of speakers) Though your best bet is to place the speakers fruther away, if you can, and such problems get a lot less prominent.
Thank you for your comment, which I appreciate. Regarding placing the monitors further away, this would contradict their use as nearfield monitors. Even so, the best distance will depend largely on the room. DM
Further away, no. They should be in a 30 degree axis with a joint just behind your back head. Then that axis hits your ears. The height is crucial, so flip them upside down if you want, horizontal or vertical, just make sure you got that axis right and tweeter and woofer right in the sweet-spot of each your ear (ear in the middle between woofer and tweeter).
absolutely love ns10s, with a good amp like a bryston they sound much better than people say. I have actually not heard a speaker that I like the transient response as much as these, ns10s feel fast and tight and i really like the papery sound. I feel the papery sound is so much more natural than for example dynaudios or Atc with different material for the cone. I also much prefer the sound of a closed enclosure to ported speakers. Also the lack of sub helps me focus on the midrange in the mix. Ns10s just work for me, but may not work for other people tough, there is definitely a learning curve also. There is also something with 2-way speakers that i find sound less plastic/phasy than 3-way speakers. They may not sound flattering to clients, but they help me make much better mixes than I did with other speakers. The only thing that matters in the end is how the mix sounds outside the studio ofc.
@@MariJu1ce I didn’t know that about Serban, though he’s mixed a few things I’ve done. Rick Rubin would always bring in a pair. Of course you want a really good amp. Bryston 4b, or equivalent.
I have a unique situation where my speakers are sitting directly on a tile floor upside down with the super tweeters and tweeters in my 4-way Sansui speakers are only inches from the floor. I had to do this because I have a 150" pulldown theater screen and it blocks the speakers except for the bottom 8" which is unobstructed. So they still sound good during movies as the fronts, I have compensated for the strange layout with my 30 band EQ's so I get great sound even with screen down.
I listen to my old budget JBL monitors vertical. They even made it to where you could twist the JBL logo 90 degrees in which to accommodate this. I have 9 pairs of speakers that I use in rotation, or set up in multiple systems in my home at times, all of which are wrong. Been listening near field for 50+ years by now, starting with the suitcase Victrola arranged on the floor when I was a lad, with 45s scattered allover the rug. That close-up listening habit followed me throughout life, even when the equipment became much larger.
Very well explained article. I'm still using 30 year old tannoy 609 mk2s , dial concentric speakers and I dont think that it would make any difference to the sound whichever way they were orientated as long ss the center of the driver Is about head height. Lots of studios used tannoys for this reason. Easy to set up and consistent in quality.
@@AudioMasterclass I do realise that there is a huge difference between studio monitors and domestic speakers from the same manufacturer. I also understand the shape and size of the room your system is in has a huge effect on the sound. Our rooms here in the UK are generally a lot smaller than those in the USA. . This does influence the choices I have regarding loudspeakers I can accommodate. And my rooms are larger than the average.
I agree with all the points you made, which matches my own experience. Like you I like mine stiff and errect....the monitors that is. If anyone wishes to get horizontal that is their private business!
It might be strange but I got some Monsoon metal highs, pretty good mids and the subwoofer is even pretty good too! I got this for $4.99 at a garage sale! One of the channels connections was hosed but it only took about 2 mins to get the pins straight and I plugged it in! I thought I must be nuts but it sounds good! LOL I've got some good monitors and headphones but I still use these Monsson's for anything media on my PC!
You stated it right, they are reference speakers, I have different types on my desk, even small pc speakers. Because the music that you master must sound "great" on smaller devices too, and if I want to test the material wonderful, then I go to my car, that's also a reference. With the years you learn these techniques.
Wasn't it Phil Spector who always played the final mix through a cheap 3-inch speaker, to make sure the song worked on the speaker most people would first hear it on (the car or a handheld transistor radio)? Or am I mixing him up with some other producer from that era?
I prefer reference monitors to be positioned or mounted vertically like yours. That puts the time alignment at the speaker's crossover point to be more in alignment. No I do not raise my wiring off the floor.
You do consider lobing in the crossover regionand yes diagonal would fix that offset in theory! Also edge diffraction will be different I suspect vertical mount gives a more consistent dispersion through the treble. Fascinating stuff. No wrong really all speakers are terrible with square waves anyway
"...really all speakers are terrible with square waves anyway..." True, however, some are less terrible than others. And I believe the difference is audible.
NS10 in whatever flavour with or without the tweeter covered with tissue paper, if good enough for Bob Clearmountain then should be good enough for the rest of us as a reference. Great video as always.
Nice video. I have the same speakers. I used to have them horizontal but have recently been experimenting with them in vertical position while I'm in the process of moving my studio round. People always comment that I've got them set up wrong but as you point out - They can be used both ways. I've found out the expensive way that it's important to drive these with a decent amp with plenty of power. Replacement drivers aren't cheap, or even easy to find.
@@AudioMasterclass I thought that the "over-driven amplifier blowing tweeters" thing was a myth, though I've seen it stated many times in various books on loudspeaker design and home audio. If it's true, shouldn't Metallica's "Death Magnetic" album be blowing tweeters? Ordinary guitar distortion effects are produced by clipping the waveform, yet I never hear about loud guitar music blowing tweeters. I've read about tests which found that the harmonics produced by clipping aren't powerful enough to blow tweeters. The logical thing to do is to buy an amplifier which is powerful enough that you don't need to set the volume near maximum for whatever your listening conditions and preferences are, and buy speakers with a power rating that can handle the maximum power from that amplifier.
I really enjoyed your commentary, and I agree with you. I have developed the notion that I want my speakers to sound the same way the orchestra sounds if I was sitting in front of the orchestra live. I don't want enhanced lo or high end, I don't want any coloration. I just want the speakers to be flat and pure and give the same sound that I'd hear if I was sitting directly in front of the performers. Is that wrong? There are discussions about having the tweeters farthest in toward center, and the woofers toward the outside... but I'm not sure I have an opinion about that. Nor do I have an opinion about vertical or horizontal positioning. I just want my monitors (I use Yamaha HS5 monitors) to sound clean and accurate. I do voice over from a home studio, and I want my narrations to be crisp and clear, but not overdone. I think having accurate speakers is a big part of that.
As long as the tweeters are at ear level, you can mount them any which way... Using them vertically, as you said, allows the listener to move horizontally and not have any phase/freq. response problems. Since we normally don't move our heads up and down when listening but do normally move a little left or right, you will get the most accurate response using them vertically... Just don't stand up... LOL... I have Kali Audio LP-6 monitors which are becoming the budget standard and very accurate for the money...
My monitors are flat within 4 db from 18 hz to well beyond 20khz ( tweeters go to 45k) in my room, but if I want to hear just the midrange, I put a highpass and lowpass on my mix to see how it sounds.
Omg, who didn't knew these SUPER basic reasons, can say don't know a damn about speakers in general and sound. Still amazed you had to explain these reasons. This was a hard one😂 🤦🏻♂️
My dad worked at the Rank Wharfedale factory in Idle, Bradford in the early to mid 1970s. At home back then we had a LEAK 2000 amp with Wharfedale Denton 2XP (1971 - 1973) speakers. Lovely sound although not audiophile.
I've done many jobs over the course of my life. There's always someone who does it bass ackward, and they make it work. The proof is in the pudding. Results are what matter.
Interesting. Speakers that reveal warts and all. Better to mix on speakers that behave like an old, well established relationship, versus a brand new one, where everything is presented as fresh and absolutely perfect, with no loss of showroom shine.
I've definitely notied the Paul resemblance. Eric Idle... That's a bit of a stretch. _Eh? Eh? Know what I mean? Know what I mean? Nudge, nudge! Say no more!_
Good evening Mr Mellor. I am blessed with a pair of stacked Quad ESLs (aka ESL 57s.) A friend once told me that the bass response on these was totally crap. I know these speakers have their limitations, but the frequency response from the lower mid-range to the mid high range on these speakers is phenomenal. And that is what I want to hear. Thumping bass has its place, but not in my lounge. I have suspended wooden floors, and pressed steel ceilings and this is definitely not an "audiofoolery good room." But I don't care, because I am hearing the music the way I prefer it. The vocal reproduction is quite incredible albeit female, male, choral pieces et al. Listening to classical music is quite sublime on these speakers, as well as jazz, blues, folk and so on. The lovely deep bass and trilling highs of a pipe organ I will go and listen to in a cathedral, church, auditorium or similar location. Plus, and this is the most important point, I do not have "golden ears" anymore - I have been blighted with permanent tinnitus since 2001. However, I still enjoy my music - from LPs (many of the older ones are not available in a digital format,) CDs and SACDs. I have not had the opportunity to move to high quality streaming. In closing - I really enjoy the way you cut to the chase and call the BS exactly what it is. I do have some slightly more expensive speaker cables in my system than just normal types, but that is because of the change between my Bedini amp and the speakers. The Quads do present a rather different load (capacitive) than normal speakers do, but my cables are no more than studio level Mogami 3082 co-axial which are roughly $5 per metre, and I have a total of 2 x 4m per channel. People will say this is unnecasary but I will refer them to this article (sound-au.com/cablewhitepaper.htm) that explains the reasons for using this cable with the ESLs. Thank you for always interesting topics. All the best from a chilly South Africa. My speakers are wonderful. Wrong for most but good for me.
I used to yearn to have stacked Quads but of course I couldn't afford them. Now I could, but I realise how much space is needed to get them to sound at their best. I guess I'll have to stick with my B&Ws. DM
@@AudioMasterclass Indeed space is needed, and my lounge is fortunately just large enough for them. I used the word "blessed" because my best audio/music friend gave me these in 1997 at the then giveaway price of £630.
LOL! Apparently you underestimate the determination of youtube commenters! I might have gone on at length to explain that the relationship between the two drivers to themselves and to the baffle does not change when the speaker is rotate. And I would like to note that if I stood on my head while listening to the speakers in their "correct" orientation, they would still sound the same! It's good to be thorough! :)
My everyday home speakers are an old pair that had been stored in the loft for over twenty years. They were a bit dusty when I got them out, but cleaned up nicely, and sound fine for enjoying music. I can even hear them when I am cooking things in the kitchen. 🙂 Great video; tells it like it is!
Oh gawds! People just don't understand studio monitors. The strength of the Yamaha NS-10s and their powered HS series is that they are incredibly changeable. If you understand how to apply corrective EQ and have an analyzer capable of the resolution needed, you can both zero out the room *and* make the speakers' response curves match whatever you want. Other speakers have a limited amount of flexibility when it comes to accepting EQ. Distortion will result. I have a 7.1 setup with a theater processor using older HS-80m powered monitors. I've removed their bass limiting circuitry to make them midfield instead of near field and EQ'd them to the JBL 'ideal' curve at the listening position. The imaging is otherworldly and the timbre is completely natural sounding. It's the next best thing to being there! The people who think studio monitors sound like garbage are using them 'naked' without any modification to their sound. That's not the way to go. They're designed by professionals for whom the steps I took above are trivial.
The NS10 had a subwoofer one could purchase. Very few people know this. Mixer/Producer/Engineer JJP (Jack Joseph Puig) had one under his console that was dialed in. Thus, when folks heard mixes in his room they had this edge of a full range. I bought one…. It absolutely filled out the low end like it should.
Damn those NS10 grot boxes. I`m glad they are no longer a standard. That being said, your ears get used to what they get used to, so I`m not going to yuck your yum. Many a solid mix has been done with NS10`s as part of the process.
My speakers are not wrongly positioned. They're JBL 4320. With tube or SS amps., placed on the floor with the treble lenses facing upwards, they sound good with any sources and let me hear all the nuances in a recording, even on bad recordings.
I run rectangular Dayton ribbon tweeters in my car. My right tweeters is vertical, for wide horizontal and controlled vertical dispersion, but my left tweeter is mounted horizontally, so it wont reflect off the A pillar and ruin the stereo imaging. It took me a while to figure out this solution. Lesson is, don't just mount everything as per "the usual" standards, figure out what works best.
@@editingsecrets It's only a tip if/when the tweeter is too close to a barrier, only with variable-dispersion tweeters including rectangular horns, oval waveguides, and even over/under mids. and only because I can't reasonably mount the tweeter "toed-in". For most applications, the vertical mounting is better, as it negates pesky floor & ceiling reflections, while toe-in can counter sidewall reflections. Many guitarists with dual-speaker cabs could use the tip by setting their cabs in an over/under configuration (sideways) rather than the normal side-by-side, thereby giving a wider horizontal dispersion while reducing stage reflections.
You sound quite smart for a guy who does not even adhere to instructions of the manufacturer regarding how to place the monitors - min distance from the wall.
Here in Australia we mount all our speakers upside down, so that the sound comes out with the correct phase in the UK. :P
LOL! Best comment. 🙂
In Australia, if you spin a record backwards, an evil message pops out with an American accent
dam Aussies lol ❤
😆😆😆
Dont mess with the speakers, stand on your head when mixing or mastering.
3:17 Reminds me of the famous Quincy Jones anecdote: in the 'Thriller' sessions, he always brought a nasty, cheap mono transistor radio-type speaker into the studio for playback. "It's got to sound good on that- that's how the majority of people will be listening to this".
I love the way the Master splits the hairs. Cocking his head to one side to discern the difference in the frequencies. And he has this amazing assistant, who is always there to fill in the gaps! I wish I could afford an assistant like that...
I love how people think your system should sound and be set up, not!!!
The only person my system needs to make happy is me.
I still use my father's KEF Cantors from 1975. He used them high up horizontally, I use them in a small room now vertically. The KEF logo on the front rotates to match the orientation 😊
A rotating logo - what will they think of next? DM
Cheers for this from a retired mastering engineer!
I had my NS10M's in this orientation on my personal desktop for years, and got nothing but grief from my contemporaries. About a year ago, I relocated my home studio to a larger room, and relegated my Yamaha monitors stands off the desktop and in the customary horizontal position. Having them further apart has improved imaging, but this has to do with the fact they are slightly farther apart, not the orientation.
Yamaha is correct. It does not matter a whit or a tiddle if they are vertical or horizontal. Just keep them off of a flat surface in either case.
I also added a 1 octave step graphic EQ that allowed me to give them a nice 'HiFi' or loudness curve. In close proximity as designed, with this addition, reveals the little units are capable of surprising bass response, and there is no need to cover the tweeters in toilet paper. 😁
A simple flip of the switch allows me to go from flat to sweet. This has also pretty much eliminated the need for multiple monitor pairs.
My primary use for these speakers in my personal studio is for archiving my analog library and restoring or remastering much of the same for 96 khz 24 bit wave. And the occasional multitracking for myself of 'backing tracks', something I have done since the 80's in order to perform 'live' without a band.
I retired in 2018 after my company closed it's media division as far as in-house production and mastering after 22 years with them. All's well as ends better, as I am having far more fun being retired and working on my own projects!
Cheers again!
You are totally right regarding vertical or horizontal orientation. Simple as that. Period.
Ideally, the tweeters should be at ear level for your listening position. Pick the most suitable mount orientation and angle using isolation to create triangle between ears and tweeters. That should get you close to the studio's listening position ie the track will sound closest to how it was intended.
Time alignment (tweeters & woofers to your ears) is a HUGE factor to hearing detail objectively, as you alluded to towards the end. And the more drivers in a speaker cabinet, the more difficult that can be. We're subconsciously actually more sensitive to phase response than to pitch.
We are sensitive to phase differences left and right for evolutuonary reasons ( where does the lion come from?), vertically not so much as it will only result in a slightly different frequency response.
I always mount NS-10s the way they are mounted in this video. The bass response should be slightly better when mounted vertically as well as the phase coherence between the woofer and tweeter, as already stated. Combine all that with keeping the tweeters on the outside and the sound will image better across the stereo spectrum. Now, all of this is probably more or less subtle, but I personally like to have things set up as correct as possible.
It's tweeters to the inside and the speaker has no bass but if it did, vertical or horizontal wouldn't matter.
It depends on your height position of your ears. Your ears should be somewhere between the LF and the HF. If turning the speakers upside down fits this height, do so.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt No. It's tweeters out. And it doesn't reproduce sub frequencies but it does reproduce bass, especially when using a high quality, relatively powerful amplifier. Even Auratones can sound remarkably full, for what they are, with a good amp. And if I can find the detailed write up on the NS10s, explaining why they have a slightly more full response when mounted vertically, and why it's more beneficial to have the tweeters out, I'll link it.
@@TheMicrophoneChannel As I have stated, the speakers have no appreciable bass, no one but perhaps you denies this. What the speaker has is an exaggerated mid which can easily be manipulated by close proximity to any large surface. As for imaging, preferences aside, speakers always image better with tweeters in and it's common knowledge in the audiophile community. As I also stated, IF the speaker had bass orientation wouldn't matter. What you are talking about is mid/ crossover/ tweeter dispersion which is greater greater in most vertically oriented speakers so yes there will be a difference in orientation which is why we don't orient vertically designed speakers in a horizontal position. I hope this clears up my statement and position on the matter.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt bruh, everyone's listening space is different, everyone's distance from the monitors is different, everyone's source is different, everyone musical preferences are different. Standing waves and reflections off the desk they're sitting on, you walls, your ceiling height, everything - all contribute. To say one is better than the other is just plain silly. Your statement is just laughable - "speakers always image better with tweeters in and it's common knowledge in the audiophile community" -- Maybe "best for you", but not "best for someone else you've never met", there is no right way vs wrong way in this comment thread. Both can have positive and negative issues. I'd suggest you start listening to concentric / coaxial drivers and hopefully stop suffering from "knowitalism".
👌👌 As it is, if you listen to the final mix well on an NS10, it will turn out well everywhere, especially if the product is for radio or television stations.
Years ago, almost all the studios where I have recorded had these speakers and they were placed both horizontally and vertically.
Many studios had another couple of boxes to listen to after the product was finished. Greetings.
This is a commonly-held opinion. It's a shame they are no longer made.
I honestly enjoy watching your videos and listening to your take.
"Always look on the bright side of yesterday"
I have one horizontally and one vertically. Sounds good.
I loved listening to my mom's albums in the '70s and she had a wide ranging taste in music. She had Led Zepplin next to Arlow Guthrie... Nate King Cole... Johnny Cash... Fifth Dimension... Donavan, etc. She had an all in one consul (speakers, turn table, 8-track, radio).
I’ve recently come across your videos (and subscribed!), and I am heartened by your willingness and ability to examine the fine details of sound reproduction while still reminding us that all of this-ALL of this-is subjective. If I mount my studio monitors in the attic pointing down through air vents into my studio because I like the way it sounds, that is good enough. If I like the way it sounds, it’s good. If I don’t, it’s bad. Far too many people throw around the word “objectively” in these discussions. You don’t, and I love that.
Your comment reminds me of years ago when I saw someone's reasonably decent speakers placed tightly into the corners of their room. All wrong in theory as they excite more standing waves. Except it sounded really good, the main point being that you could be anywhere in the room and it sounded good, rather than just one 'sweet spot' listening position. I wouldn't say this is good for monitoring, but for enjoying music it's an option. DM
I've ben using my original 1978 Yamaha NS10s as main monitor for maybe 10 years now. I used them on 4 or 5 places since I bought them, and half of the time I've used them vertical, as they're supposed to be. The other half of the time(and right now) I'm using them horizontally. Never been able to hear a difference in response or performance. In other monitors I had with horns, the difference was obvious instantly when you flip them. People saying that the orientation is wrong, clearly doesn't know what they're talking about, and of course never used their ears(or had a pair of NS10s hahaha)
Great video. About monitors that have waveguides for the tweeters, many companies design their monitors to turn the tweeter 90 degrees so you can use them horizontally instead of vertically (ADAM Audio for example, not all models!!) without compromising the sound dispersion. About near field monitors in general, they are for monitoring at close proximity (1 meter or less). A small benefit of this concept is that the room acoustics are less noticeable because the sound only has to travel a distance of 1 meter at maximum to reach your ears. I don’t say that room isolation and treatment is unnecessary, it will benefit the sound for the better. It’s a sort of hack for people that don’t have a proper treated studio environment/room.
LOL Paul McCartney, how lucky to have your audience think of Paul when you talk and what a wonderful job of recording the
Beatles did for the music industry.
keep up the good work!
In addition to the "mids microscope" aspect of NS10s, I always understood the the main reason for having them is that virtually every pro studio on earth has them, and they thus serve as a reliable reference point for engineers who know them well. Great for mixing vocals. I wouldn't use them exclusively (I also have Genelecs), but mine have magic dust on them...I got them from the Townhouse studios (via funky junk) with a Quad 520f. Be Well.
We all know that the magic dust effect isn't real. But sometimes it feels real. DM
Genelec's tweeters are harsh metal-dome. But if you love them and care for them, good for you. You will know them.
I stick with my monitors because I have used them for years and know them through and through!
My speakers are also installed horizontally. And I also used a pink noise to adjust my system using a Real time analyzer and a graphic equalizer to correct the deficiencies in my system as well as the acoustics of my room. It makes a big difference. My amplifier is an Electrocompaniet from the 80s.
I have an old pair of AR18's that are really useful for checking - kind of the precursor to NS10s as portable Hifi for mixing. I mostly work on my Genelec 1030a but they are a little 'veiled' in the upper mid at the crossover point even though excellent for me everywhere else. The AR show me that area perfectly - not to mention have a tight bass.
Thanks for re-emphasising the phase aspect - I find speakers on their side super wide and weird, but thats me.
The first component HiFi system I heard was with a pair of AR-1 in 1969. My neighbor had the system and I was 14 yrs old. He played the best music on them too. Sgt Peppers, Simon and Garfunkel - Bookends, Are You Experienced. Those speakers sounded so good to me then. :)
I remember when the NS10M first appeared mid 1980s, as I recall their biggest selling point was that an NS10 sounded like an NS10 in almost every studio they were used in. This was the era of the freelance sound/mix engineer, who could be working in almost any studio from day to day. Other popular near field speakers seemed to interact with the room more thus sounded subtly different in different studios. The NS10 did not sound as accurate as other speakers but the sound was consistent so he/she had a known reference.
The original NS10M had an acoustic material speaker ‘grill’, but engineers always took it off. The result was the speaker was very slightly bright, which lead to people putting a sheet of tissue paper over the tweeter. This lead to a discussions of how many sheets, what brand etc. It sounds mad but it happened!
I remember one of the Lord-Alge brothers (sorry can’t remember which one) who said the NS10 only “sounded right” when it was so loud it was “farting” ie the bass driver hitting the end stop. Needless to say the bass drivers needed replacing very often when he was mixing. But his mixes sounded great so who am I to judge.
They used to replace the NS10 woofers every single day at A&M (Now Henson) studios. There was an aftermarket here in LA for less financially blessed studios, for cheaper than new NS10 woofers.
@@MobiusMinded we did mot replace them every day, but we had a big stock of spare drivers & swapped out when tired, the engineer/producer requested or when they inevitably died.
@@peters7949 ahh… I was at The Village at the time and this was the rumor. We swapped the out all the time too. Let’s not forget the “Fuse vs Non Fused” tweeter debate.
@@MobiusMinded I don’t recall the tweeter fuse debate, perhaps it was more of a USA issue. We did have Urei 813A main monitors in 3 of our studios; they had, what looked like light bulbs, in series with the drivers. They were actually Barretter resistors en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barretter. These glowed if the speakers were driven too hard, increasing their resistance & thus protecting the driver. They also served as a warning that they were too loud. These would blow from time to time & were much easier to replace than a driver. I recall a small JBL speaker in the 90s that had a similar device inside, that when driven too hard you could see, though the bass port, illuminating the inside of the speaker.
NS10's are the most critical speakers in my experience and was pleasantly surprised to hear him say what I learned 20+ years ago: If you can make your mix sound good on NS10's, then your mix will sound good on anything. This is why you'll notice most major recording studios had a pair of NS10's in them...
it creates a "standard " sound but not the best available
"If you can make your mix sound good on NS10's, then your mix will sound good on anything"
This is a myth created just because they were kind of standard in studios. It is the skills of the person that matters, not the speakers. Room and environment is the most critical, then the skills....
@@rabarebra Hi, you seem to be misunderstanding my remark. NS10's are not just popular, they are critical in the sense that instead of pumping your mix through large JBLs, portable boom boxes, and running outside to your car to check your mix, if you get NS10's to sound good (obviously using your skills/ear because it's not easy), there's not much need to check the other monitors.
@@ShabbyBroom I am not a newbie but a engineer. Where did I mention any use of large speakers only? NS10's are not critical to use. There are a bunch of speakers on the market you can use along with larger speakers to check your mixes.
Cheers from a Mastering engineer whom like to be anonymous.
If it sounds good on the Yamaha, music will sound good on any speaker because the Yamaha NS 10’s have a reverse fletcher munson curve. Not my idea, Eric Alexander from Tekton speakers said that. And that makes sense.
You are just... awesome. Enjoy your content for it's analytical side, humor, and education points. Your video where you show the DAW noise floor doesn't exist was excellent as well.
Also vertical orientation helps keeping the tweeter more or less at the same height as your ear, which is important for high frequencies (which are directional). So it would help with clarity and stereo imaging. And nice speakers BTW :D
This is key. Monitors must be the right height or it doesn't matter how good they are. DM
Exactly!
Nonsense!
Of course with speakers so horrible orientation couldn't possibly make them sound any worse.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt He's just trying to be less disoriented by their dizzying response curve
Good for you ,it is amazing how all these people are experts and don't have their own speaker companies.
I've turned speakers backwards! In the musical instrument business, you're producing, not reproducing. My instruments were organs and carillons. Both sounds have a large indirect component. "Speakers forward" often gave too much direct sound. It certainly puzzled a lot of customers, but they couldn't argue with the sound.
It's a useful technique in theatre too. And of course the French horn fires to the rear. DM
@@AudioMasterclass I used to play the French horn.
Having worked myself with a couple of NS10, I wouldn´t overlook the problem with frequency response as if it was a minor issue. Those dips and bumps in the highs may become a challenge when looking for a tonal balance. It´s not only a question of having the mix sounding "good" in the yamahas, it´s also about mixin while you are aware of which frequencies are boosted by this response, and which are atennuated. A complete mess of perception, in my opinion. I never got to feel comfortable with these.
I have enjoyed some of the latest Genelec models, and my final choice for mixing has been Neumann KH120 + Kh750dsp- Measuring my mixing room and getting an "almost flat" response, at least in terms of tonal balance perception, adding an extended bass response down to 16Hz, finally got me having my mixes translate in many other places with much less struggle.
The Neumanns offer a rather boring sound when you use them simply for listening to other music, but are surprisingly revealing in showing hidden details in records I had listened to a thousand times. The kind of tool that helps you to take decisions and achieve your goal sooner, and more confident.
As always, thank you for the free information!
We used to tape some tissue paper over the tweeters , they are very bright and fatiguing sounding speakers and are supposed to represent the average hifi speaker on the home . That was back in the late 80s early nineties. Horrid speakers , pretty much every studio had them .
Thnx Eric McCartney 🙏🏼⭐️🥁
Nothing better than listening to a true subject matter expert debunking folklore from the unwashed masses. Please keep it up. The truth needs to see the light of day. Cheers
That has always been said of NS 10s. The speaker so lackluster that if it sounds good on them it'll sound better on anything else. I don't think they were even Studio Monitors originally. It's just that so many engineers and producers were using them as near fields that Yamaha jumped on the Band Wagon and started putting that on the front. The HS series are flatter, though not much better. But eventually White Coned Yamahas were ubiquitous in studios. So much so, that if they weren't in your studio, people questioned whether it was Pro, so of course I have them. And they look so cool. But, of course, I have to hear my mixes on a Jambox and in the car, headphones, etc... to really know what's going on. It was ever thus. Cassettes for the ride home.
Good for you! 😊 You are completely right. It's all very personal.
I use my (upright) NS10s (hooked up to an old Alesis amp) for two reasons: in mono for balancing (theyre ruthless when balance is wrong or when wide sounds are not in phase), and to check if my bass is still there on smaller speakers (if not, I usually add a bit of distortion to bass in parallel to bring it up on smaller speakersets). Double checking on NS10's has saved me numerous times
Never noticed the resemblance to Paul until you mentioned it, but damn, don't know how I didn't observe it. BTW, I employ the 1st iteration of B&G's dipole, push-pull, planar magnetic, RD-57 built by Dave Graebener at Speakerlab, before B&G Corp was formed. It features a 54 inch long by 2 inch wide, diaphragm, 4 turn voice coil for Frequencies above 200Hz. Could never imagine them not vertical.
My NS-10s have the labeling rightways up when they're vertical, but I use them horizontally. No worries.
I have it placed the same as you did - since 15 years - never got a problem :)
I used to work at a local radio station. For that I once had a workshop making jingles at the NOB. working in the studios of the public broadcaster. Equipment that makes you salivate as a local radio station technician. Made super cool jingles, you know how those things sound. But the tip of the NOB technician was that you can make a very nice final mix on this equipment. But if you can't follow it on a transistor radio, it makes no sense. So a speaker from an old cheap radio was literally connected to the mono bus. "If it sounds good on that, and can be followed, it's good"
For many years I used a pair of Canton Quinto510 Loudspeakers....and they did the job very well. Combined with my AKG K240 Studio headphones I think I was pretty good prepared to mix and record audio. I used my monitors so long and so intensive that I imediately identified any mistake in mix or recording. I knew exactly what I should be hearing.
Since 3 years I changed to a pair of Yamaha HS 7 studio monitors and still I don't feel as secure and confident as I did on my (very old) Cantons. I guess it has to be some more years of matching my ears to the new monitors..... To conclude: I think you just need to KNOW WHAT YOU HEAR. And be able to make the right decisions from that knowledge.
Great video, as always! Thank you very much!
I like turning my bookshelf upside down... I love the look.
Paul M and Eric Idle……didn’t notice until you said it now I can’t get that image out of my head…..very funny!
We've never seen all three of them in the same room, have we? We couldn't even trust a photo of them together at Abbey Road, he could have had his AI assistant stitch their pictures together.
Before I lost my hearing upper register the monitor's tweeters always had to be square-on perpendicular & equidistant. Vertical has advantage I find better viewing through controlroom window
Oh and a pair of substitution closedbox tinny little speakers are great for hearing how it translates
I invented my own speakers. I placed a JPW monitor on top of a Kef Coda. Individually they are different but lacking, together they are pretty decent.
Haha…don’t forget baffle reflection for the tweeter.😊
Someone one bought a bass guitar from a Music shop and was really impressed. So i went to the music shop and mentioned that someone I knew had bought a bass guitar from them and it was great and they were happy, And the shop assistant chirped up and was clearly proud to hear about a happy customer, then I said I was confused, I didnt realize there was such a thing as a bass guitar that didnt sound good..... The speakers a fine, Our heads are all wrong....
Yes, revealing speakers which make you hear all the problems are the thing for monitoring.
I am glad you got the path changes right. Since there are 2 drivers not one, your movement will change the length of the sound has to travel, and since you rarely move up and down but a lot side to side, a vertical orientation is better (as with 99% of speakers)
Though your best bet is to place the speakers fruther away, if you can, and such problems get a lot less prominent.
Thank you for your comment, which I appreciate. Regarding placing the monitors further away, this would contradict their use as nearfield monitors. Even so, the best distance will depend largely on the room. DM
Further away, no. They should be in a 30 degree axis with a joint just behind your back head. Then that axis hits your ears. The height is crucial, so flip them upside down if you want, horizontal or vertical, just make sure you got that axis right and tweeter and woofer right in the sweet-spot of each your ear (ear in the middle between woofer and tweeter).
My ns10’s are early versions and have the writing the other way, so when they are upright the writing is the correct way up.
absolutely love ns10s, with a good amp like a bryston they sound much better than people say. I have actually not heard a speaker that I like the transient response as much as these, ns10s feel fast and tight and i really like the papery sound. I feel the papery sound is so much more natural than for example dynaudios or Atc with different material for the cone. I also much prefer the sound of a closed enclosure to ported speakers. Also the lack of sub helps me focus on the midrange in the mix. Ns10s just work for me, but may not work for other people tough, there is definitely a learning curve also. There is also something with 2-way speakers that i find sound less plastic/phasy than 3-way speakers. They may not sound flattering to clients, but they help me make much better mixes than I did with other speakers. The only thing that matters in the end is how the mix sounds outside the studio ofc.
We're speaking the same language. DM
Totally agree and especialy about 3-way designs.
Try a pair of ProAcs
@@MobiusMinded arent proacs ported? They look interesting tho, maybe they work for me. They certainly work for serban :)
@@MariJu1ce I didn’t know that about Serban, though he’s mixed a few things I’ve done. Rick Rubin would always bring in a pair. Of course you want a really good amp. Bryston 4b, or equivalent.
I have a unique situation where my speakers are sitting directly on a tile floor upside down with the super tweeters and tweeters in my 4-way Sansui speakers are only inches from the floor. I had to do this because I have a 150" pulldown theater screen and it blocks the speakers except for the bottom 8" which is unobstructed. So they still sound good during movies as the fronts, I have compensated for the strange layout with my 30 band EQ's so I get great sound even with screen down.
I listen to my old budget JBL monitors vertical. They even made it to where you could twist the JBL logo 90 degrees in which to accommodate this. I have 9 pairs of speakers that I use in rotation, or set up in multiple systems in my home at times, all of which are wrong. Been listening near field for 50+ years by now, starting with the suitcase Victrola arranged on the floor when I was a lad, with 45s scattered allover the rug. That close-up listening habit followed me throughout life, even when the equipment became much larger.
I certainly like the detail I hear when listening close-to. DM
Vertical is correct. The tweeter should always be vertical to the woofer.
Very well explained article. I'm still using 30 year old tannoy 609 mk2s , dial concentric speakers and I dont think that it would make any difference to the sound whichever way they were orientated as long ss the center of the driver Is about head height. Lots of studios used tannoys for this reason. Easy to set up and consistent in quality.
Yes, there's something about those Tannoys. The proper ones of course. DM
@@AudioMasterclass I do realise that there is a huge difference between studio monitors and domestic speakers from the same manufacturer. I also understand the shape and size of the room your system is in has a huge effect on the sound. Our rooms here in the UK are generally a lot smaller than those in the USA. . This does influence the choices I have regarding loudspeakers I can accommodate. And my rooms are larger than the average.
As long as it sounds good. Up, down or sideways, your ears are the judge.
Dude... ;) my ATC are GOLDEN!
Had my Tannoy 605 Mk 1s for nealry 30 years and they still sound great.
I agree with all the points you made, which matches my own experience. Like you I like mine stiff and errect....the monitors that is. If anyone wishes to get horizontal that is their private business!
It might be strange but I got some Monsoon metal highs, pretty good mids and the subwoofer is even pretty good too! I got this for $4.99 at a garage sale! One of the channels connections was hosed but it only took about 2 mins to get the pins straight and I plugged it in! I thought I must be nuts but it sounds good! LOL I've got some good monitors and headphones but I still use these Monsson's for anything media on my PC!
I think it was none other than Bob Clearmountain who started using the NS-10s (and porting them around with him).
I agree fully! The room dictates everything! Cheers
Your speakers are spot on. I've compared many speakers, the ones i've kept are NS-10M STUDIO. Make sure to not get non-STUDIO, i really dislike those.
Nice looking speakers. I don’t give a bollox about optimal sound, if they look pretty and the sound is good. Good enough.
They're so nice looking people seem to want to poke the dust caps. You'll rarely see one that isn't dented. DM
You stated it right, they are reference speakers, I have different types on my desk, even small pc speakers. Because the music that you master must sound "great" on smaller devices too, and if I want to test the material wonderful, then I go to my car, that's also a reference. With the years you learn these techniques.
Wasn't it Phil Spector who always played the final mix through a cheap 3-inch speaker, to make sure the song worked on the speaker most people would first hear it on (the car or a handheld transistor radio)? Or am I mixing him up with some other producer from that era?
I prefer reference monitors to be positioned or mounted vertically like yours. That puts the time alignment at the speaker's crossover point to be more in alignment. No I do not raise my wiring off the floor.
You do consider lobing in the crossover regionand yes diagonal would fix that offset in theory! Also edge diffraction will be different I suspect vertical mount gives a more consistent dispersion through the treble.
Fascinating stuff. No wrong really all speakers are terrible with square waves anyway
"...really all speakers are terrible with square waves anyway..." True, however, some are less terrible than others. And I believe the difference is audible.
@@naturalverities definitely! Isn't it like the Platonic solids - the perfect square wave only exists in our minds!?!
NS10 in whatever flavour with or without the tweeter covered with tissue paper, if good enough for Bob Clearmountain then should be good enough for the rest of us as a reference. Great video as always.
I just use two paper cups, connect a wool-wire to the XLRs out of my mixer. Just make s(h)ure the mixer outs are set to mic. Voila, free NS10s.
Nice video. I have the same speakers. I used to have them horizontal but have recently been experimenting with them in vertical position while I'm in the process of moving my studio round. People always comment that I've got them set up wrong but as you point out - They can be used both ways. I've found out the expensive way that it's important to drive these with a decent amp with plenty of power. Replacement drivers aren't cheap, or even easy to find.
With great power comes great responsibility. With little power comes clipping and blown tweeters. DM
@@AudioMasterclass Brillant! And so true. 😁
@@AudioMasterclass OOH! I may have just found my epitaph. : )
The first version was tweeters up. They just changed the print. It s the same speaker. But now it s ‘studio’ - it s just a trick to,sell them
@@AudioMasterclass I thought that the "over-driven amplifier blowing tweeters" thing was a myth, though I've seen it stated many times in various books on loudspeaker design and home audio.
If it's true, shouldn't Metallica's "Death Magnetic" album be blowing tweeters? Ordinary guitar distortion effects are produced by clipping the waveform, yet I never hear about loud guitar music blowing tweeters.
I've read about tests which found that the harmonics produced by clipping aren't powerful enough to blow tweeters.
The logical thing to do is to buy an amplifier which is powerful enough that you don't need to set the volume near maximum for whatever your listening conditions and preferences are, and buy speakers with a power rating that can handle the maximum power from that amplifier.
I really enjoyed your commentary, and I agree with you. I have developed the notion that I want my speakers to sound the same way the orchestra sounds if I was sitting in front of the orchestra live. I don't want enhanced lo or high end, I don't want any coloration. I just want the speakers to be flat and pure and give the same sound that I'd hear if I was sitting directly in front of the performers. Is that wrong?
There are discussions about having the tweeters farthest in toward center, and the woofers toward the outside... but I'm not sure I have an opinion about that. Nor do I have an opinion about vertical or horizontal positioning. I just want my monitors (I use Yamaha HS5 monitors) to sound clean and accurate. I do voice over from a home studio, and I want my narrations to be crisp and clear, but not overdone. I think having accurate speakers is a big part of that.
Tweeters-in or tweeters-out has arguments either way. A future video perhaps.
As long as the tweeters are at ear level, you can mount them any which way... Using them vertically, as you said, allows the listener to move horizontally and not have any phase/freq. response problems. Since we normally don't move our heads up and down when listening but do normally move a little left or right, you will get the most accurate response using them vertically... Just don't stand up... LOL... I have Kali Audio LP-6 monitors which are becoming the budget standard and very accurate for the money...
My speakers can converse in three languages and they are nice people!
My monitors are flat within 4 db from 18 hz to well beyond 20khz ( tweeters go to 45k) in my room, but if I want to hear just the midrange, I put a highpass and lowpass on my mix to see how it sounds.
I'm relieved, I was afraid you were going to tell me that my speakers were wrong.
Nothing's wrong if it suits you and gets the job done. DM
i thought that too. I do have my bookshelf too low, which is on the floor. Gotta do something about that 🥴
@@AudioMasterclass Except clipping the master!
Omg, who didn't knew these SUPER basic reasons, can say don't know a damn about speakers in general and sound. Still amazed you had to explain these reasons. This was a hard one😂 🤦🏻♂️
My trusty Lintons do a mighty fine job - pushed by the Leak Stereo 130.. and its my personal taste .. greetings from Ireland
Wharfedale Lintons. One wonders vintage or heritage. DM
My dad worked at the Rank Wharfedale factory in Idle, Bradford in the early to mid 1970s. At home back then we had a LEAK 2000 amp with Wharfedale Denton 2XP (1971 - 1973) speakers. Lovely sound although not audiophile.
@@AudioMasterclass I have the Heritage ..
@@ramblinginmeath4950 Very sensible. But there's be a hi-fi fiend out there somewhere who thinks you're not getting the authentic experience. DM
Paul McCartney!!
Lovely!
I have the same speakers as you and I love them.
Get this man and Steve Albini in the same room and it's going to end a fist fight or the greatest sounding recording of all time.
I've done many jobs over the course of my life. There's always someone who does it bass ackward, and they make it work. The proof is in the pudding. Results are what matter.
Interesting. Speakers that reveal warts and all. Better to mix on speakers that behave like an old, well established relationship, versus a brand new one, where everything is presented as fresh and absolutely perfect, with no loss of showroom shine.
I've definitely notied the Paul resemblance. Eric Idle... That's a bit of a stretch. _Eh? Eh? Know what I mean? Know what I mean? Nudge, nudge! Say no more!_
Good evening Mr Mellor. I am blessed with a pair of stacked Quad ESLs (aka ESL 57s.) A friend once told me that the bass response on these was totally crap. I know these speakers have their limitations, but the frequency response from the lower mid-range to the mid high range on these speakers is phenomenal. And that is what I want to hear. Thumping bass has its place, but not in my lounge. I have suspended wooden floors, and pressed steel ceilings and this is definitely not an "audiofoolery good room." But I don't care, because I am hearing the music the way I prefer it. The vocal reproduction is quite incredible albeit female, male, choral pieces et al. Listening to classical music is quite sublime on these speakers, as well as jazz, blues, folk and so on. The lovely deep bass and trilling highs of a pipe organ I will go and listen to in a cathedral, church, auditorium or similar location. Plus, and this is the most important point, I do not have "golden ears" anymore - I have been blighted with permanent tinnitus since 2001. However, I still enjoy my music - from LPs (many of the older ones are not available in a digital format,) CDs and SACDs. I have not had the opportunity to move to high quality streaming.
In closing - I really enjoy the way you cut to the chase and call the BS exactly what it is. I do have some slightly more expensive speaker cables in my system than just normal types, but that is because of the change between my Bedini amp and the speakers. The Quads do present a rather different load (capacitive) than normal speakers do, but my cables are no more than studio level Mogami 3082 co-axial which are roughly $5 per metre, and I have a total of 2 x 4m per channel. People will say this is unnecasary but I will refer them to this article (sound-au.com/cablewhitepaper.htm) that explains the reasons for using this cable with the ESLs.
Thank you for always interesting topics. All the best from a chilly South Africa. My speakers are wonderful. Wrong for most but good for me.
I used to yearn to have stacked Quads but of course I couldn't afford them. Now I could, but I realise how much space is needed to get them to sound at their best. I guess I'll have to stick with my B&Ws. DM
@@AudioMasterclass Indeed space is needed, and my lounge is fortunately just large enough for them. I used the word "blessed" because my best audio/music friend gave me these in 1997 at the then giveaway price of £630.
LOL! Apparently you underestimate the determination of youtube commenters! I might have gone on at length to explain that the relationship between the two drivers to themselves and to the baffle does not change when the speaker is rotate. And I would like to note that if I stood on my head while listening to the speakers in their "correct" orientation, they would still sound the same! It's good to be thorough! :)
My everyday home speakers are an old pair that had been stored in the loft for over twenty years. They were a bit dusty when I got them out, but cleaned up nicely, and sound fine for enjoying music. I can even hear them when I am cooking things in the kitchen. 🙂 Great video; tells it like it is!
Oh gawds! People just don't understand studio monitors. The strength of the Yamaha NS-10s and their powered HS series is that they are incredibly changeable. If you understand how to apply corrective EQ and have an analyzer capable of the resolution needed, you can both zero out the room *and* make the speakers' response curves match whatever you want. Other speakers have a limited amount of flexibility when it comes to accepting EQ. Distortion will result. I have a 7.1 setup with a theater processor using older HS-80m powered monitors. I've removed their bass limiting circuitry to make them midfield instead of near field and EQ'd them to the JBL 'ideal' curve at the listening position. The imaging is otherworldly and the timbre is completely natural sounding. It's the next best thing to being there!
The people who think studio monitors sound like garbage are using them 'naked' without any modification to their sound. That's not the way to go. They're designed by professionals for whom the steps I took above are trivial.
LOL, the smart-ass comments here 😂.
So much technical blabla , while the video already explains everything. Hilarious.
They have to vent I guess.
I like the way you communicate sir.
0:04 Yeah, right. Pull the other one
The NS10 had a subwoofer one could purchase. Very few people know this. Mixer/Producer/Engineer JJP (Jack Joseph Puig) had one under his console that was dialed in. Thus, when folks heard mixes in his room they had this edge of a full range. I bought one…. It absolutely filled out the low end like it should.
This is true. They occasionally come up on eBay for a price that is a lot lower than it will be when word gets out. DM
@@AudioMasterclass i sold mine years ago.
Damn those NS10 grot boxes. I`m glad they are no longer a standard.
That being said, your ears get used to what they get used to, so I`m not going to yuck your yum. Many a solid mix has been done with NS10`s as part of the process.
My speakers are not wrongly positioned. They're JBL 4320. With tube or SS amps., placed on the floor with the treble lenses facing upwards, they sound good with any sources and let me hear all the nuances in a recording, even on bad recordings.
KEF Concertos here…sitting vertically, directly on the floor :0
Not bad. I'd have desired them myself back in the day. DM
I run rectangular Dayton ribbon tweeters in my car. My right tweeters is vertical, for wide horizontal and controlled vertical dispersion, but my left tweeter is mounted horizontally, so it wont reflect off the A pillar and ruin the stereo imaging. It took me a while to figure out this solution. Lesson is, don't just mount everything as per "the usual" standards, figure out what works best.
Never heard that tip before! So ingenious!
@@editingsecrets It's only a tip if/when the tweeter is too close to a barrier, only with variable-dispersion tweeters including rectangular horns, oval waveguides, and even over/under mids. and only because I can't reasonably mount the tweeter "toed-in". For most applications, the vertical mounting is better, as it negates pesky floor & ceiling reflections, while toe-in can counter sidewall reflections. Many guitarists with dual-speaker cabs could use the tip by setting their cabs in an over/under configuration (sideways) rather than the normal side-by-side, thereby giving a wider horizontal dispersion while reducing stage reflections.
@@xxxYYZxxx Thanks for the tips
Mounting vertically does not affect reproduction quality: so says Samantha who has just gone off to get her hands on a fine 7 incher.
i expected the worst from this title, but very reasonable takes! i’ll check out some more of your content
You sound quite smart for a guy who does not even adhere to instructions of the manufacturer regarding how to place the monitors - min distance from the wall.
I enjoyed this british and professional answer to complains of some smart-arse amateurs.