No, I haven't seen them before making the video. I just looked into them now and they're definitely more creative than mine :D But I also think the changes are a little less impactful which is not a bad thing - I just think my changes would buff the corps more significantly. Again, not to say that's better or worse.
@@marsexpert4276 As a completely impartial observer here I have to agree that everything Mars University does is basically brilliant XD. I like your balance changes too though :)
Honestly, I love point luna's ability. I think it could probably be okay if PL didn't start with a Titanium production. That way its economy is abysmal (38 MC and no production meens its economic situation is only better than ecoline) so its ability is balanced out. This makes luna much less flexible because you really do need eath tags to play it instead of accepting the production with the thought that Luna usually works out.
Exactly - with my version Point Luna is more of a niche pick instead of being universally good. The way it is in Prelude, you can just pick it no matter the starting hand and you'll still get good value out of it most of the time.
OK, 3rd and final post. I've been considering buffs to UNMI, Helion and Thorgate, as these corps are demonstrably bad. And I'd love to have your input. First Helion, which I'm pretty happy with: Still 42 MC. But 4 Heat prod. Plus 2 abilities - (inspired by Ecoline): 1. 7 heat can be converted into 1Temperature increase OR 1 TR 2. 12 heat can be converted into 2 Temperature increases. (The second one is both more point efficient and will allow you to compete for the temp track bonusses, while the TR option on the first one allows you to use your heat even when the track has been maxed out) Improved enough? Secondly UNMI, Which Mars University has also tackled (on youtube). UNMI retains cash, tags and ability, but gains a secondary ability. These are my 3+1 favourites: 2a. When you raise TR, gain 1 heat resource. 2b. When you play an earth tag, gain 1 TR. 2c. You have a permanent 2MC discount and Standard Projects. 2d. I believe Jacob Fryxelis has suggested that the price of UNMIs ability should be just 1MC. My concerns are: 2a. Very nice - around 4 "easy" TR bumps per game. But won't help you on that first turn. 2b. Will help on first turn, but could it become too good? Rush strategy will have a hard time drawing many Earth tags, and using/timing them could be awkward, hopefully keeping this in check. 2c. Could be a bit much combined with Standard Tech. Maybe. And may lead to a bland playstyle - SP and bump every turn. 2d. Fine I guess, but bland. Plus - will it help UNMI enough? Finally Thorgate - reworked and not yet finished. Help appriciated: Still 48 MC. 2 Power tags. No power-prod - but..... 1. Whenever you play a power tag, including these, increase your power production by 1 for each. So, basically, you start with 2 power prod, and instead of the -3MC discount, you get +1 prod for power tag cards, so it scales in much the same way as the old ability (i.e. great effect on a cheap card, relatively smaller effect on an expensive card). Now for the hard part: Thorgate needs a second ability, which allows them to do something special with their power. It should be both balanced, fun and thematic (and frankly, I have a hard time figuring out what power thematically does... except off-world trading like in Colonies). I think it is a very interesting twist that unlike other currencies, you can't stockpile Power, because they turn into heat. This means that using them as some sort of currency is less likely to get out of hand. I'm considering: 2a. Power can be used as 2MC for something thematic - perhaps space cards, oceans, standard projects or cities? Don't know. Or just 1MC. 2b. 4 power can be turned into oxygen (once per turn) - just like the ozygen bumper cards. Or perhaps for 5 but can be used multiple times? That ability would annoy the greenery based ground players. But useless once the oxygen track is maxed out. 2c. Power can be used to decrease global requirements (or all requirements?) on the next card you play. 2d. A colony like mechanic where Power can be traded for other resources. Perhaps 3:1 for standard resources. Or 4:1 for a special resource that you just placed as your last action? I'd probably not restrict it to once per turn... If that is too much on top of the Colonies expansion, (where Thorgate improves a bit), it might be worded so that the ability can only be used when there are no volonies. Which do you think would be most balanced, thematic, unique and fun? Kind regards Martin
Hi :) I finally have some time to give some feedback to your last comment - overall great ideas, but I don't agree with all of them. 1. Helion: First of all, I don't think Helion needs any extra work. I think it is an interesting corp and not too weak. Of course we could rework it and keep the power level roughly the same. For that I think you could use just the first ability you've laid out. Being able to convert 7 heat into a temperature bump is really good and being able to keep on scoring after the temperature is maxed out by taking straight up TR instead is even better! The second ability however I think is broken. An additional discount AND a really easy way to get the bonus ocean - I don't think that's balanced. 2. UNMI: a) Very interesting, but imo too little to make it balanced - make it 2 heat or a plant instead b) WAY too strong! A TR is worth roughly 8.5MC - that's too much value to get for free while playing earth tags. c) Interesting, but a bit boring - would help with playing Asteroids when you're terraforming cards run out but you want to keep using your ability... d) Makes sense, but too little to make UNMI a solid choice imo. 3. Thorgate: I like your idea of power tags granting extra power - similar to mine where getting power prod grants extra power, but probably more balanced, since your version cannot be triggered by using the standard project. I think I overtuned Thorgate by quite a bit this video, so I think your version (without an extra ability) is already enough to make it balanced.
I'm a bit all over the place on these. Credicor's nerf is simple and fair, albeit maybe just a bit too harsh - playtesting needed. Luna's is very fair in regards to the effect, but it might be too rough to also bring its economy down. Teractor's nerf actually makes it a much more fun corporation, both to play with and against, as it influences everyone's decisionmaking both in draft and further play. I love it! I really like the simple idea of Vitor's nerf, but the issue is that it's going to be so weak in the early stages of the game that I fail to see how to implement a successful strategy. Remember, this nerf effectively also reduces starting capital by 3. A more boring, but balanced nerf would in my opinion be to simply bring the cash-back down to 2, and game-test that. UNMI's buff is too much. Setting as a general baseline that a corp should be valued around 65 MC (to keep merger fairly balanced as a prelude if nothing else), UNMI with your change starts, with just resources and production in mind, at 40+(5.5*2)+10=61 (or 62 with the earth tag). Priced at just 1, you can rather easily get a TR for almost nothing each generation, and with trackless TR valued in the range from 6.5-8.5, you surpass the total value of 65 from the corp extremely quickly. Our playgroup has set the price to 1 and changed nothing else, and it still sees barely any play though, so some other change might be needed to even it out. Perhaps a price of 2 for the TR and just a singular plant and heat prod instead? Thorgate looks fun, but again, too strong. The science tag is a great addition, but adding essentially 7 MC of value (one power prod) to every single power tag seems just too disruptive for game balance. Perhaps if the rebate was also excluded? Still, this would oblige players to often deny power card because of the insane value for Thorgate, so I doubt it a bit. Perhaps throw in the ability to use energy as heat directly, alongside the science tag and an additional starting energy production, keeping the rebate as is? Or, instead get 1 energy resource every time you play an energy tag or use the SP, alongside some of the other buffs? A lot of different possibilities, for sure. Our playgroup actually rates Phoblog higher than you, perhaps in part due to generally playing with the whole deck, excluding just Turmoil 60 % of the time. Especially with Turmoil in play, Phoblog can get a lot of value from getting Unity into power, but just with the extra space tags the other expansions offer (almost 25 % as opposed to 20 % in base+prelude) Phoblog becomes a lot more consistent. Some of the new cards are just perfect for Phoblog; the obvious like Earth elevator, 16 psych, Mining colony and Titan shuttles, but also Solar reflectors, Research colony, Ice moon colony and Trading colony are great. Still, it's a rather rarely picked corp due to the precise cards needed, so I'm all for some changes to make it more consistent and just a little stronger. I think your changes push it a bit too far though, at least in regards to the entire deck. I would talk about Mining guild and Robinson industries, which I think both need a buff to be viable, but since you've rated them higher I'd first have to motivate them getting a buff, and this comment would just keep on growing. So for now, thanks for the video! Been thinking a lot about and trying to rebalance the corps in our playgroup, so it's nice to get some fresh ideas from you!
Credicor: What MC amount would you prefer? 52? Point Luna: I truly think it's fine as is, but yes maybe playtesting would be needed. Teractor: thanks I was actually quite proud of the idea :) Vitor: I'd like to keep the ability like it is - maybe we could just increase the starting capital to 50? UNMI: maybe 1 heat prod and 1 plant prod and the price of the ability at 1? Or at 2 like you suggested - playtesting would be needed. Thorgate: yeah it's probably too strong, especially when using the SP power that now is a guaranteed 2 power prod for 8 and available all the time. Maybe we just remove the discount from the standard project? Of course when playing with Colonies, Thorgate would then still be too strong, but I did not include Colonies in my thought process, just base game and preludes. Phobolog: Yeah, the expansions up Phobologs strength quite a bit - I see why you wouldn't want to buff it if you're playing mainly with them.
@@marsexpert4276 50 MC was the starting cash I had in mind for Credicor, but yeah, some nitpicking, really. Valuing the effect is tough and varies a lot from game to game, obviously. PL is certainly a strong corp, but somewhat inconsistent. I concede that the effect nerf isn't too severe since you draw so many unwanted cards anyway, but the money from selling them is lost. Given you'll likely play 10-15 earth tags in a game, that's a decent bit of economy gone. Might play TM today, we'll see if we test out its new power level! For Vitor, it does change the feel of the corp; no longer will it to the extent it is today be about playing cheap vp-cards and for the other players to block them, leaving the corp in a kind of... anonymous spot. Perhaps balanced with 50 starting cred, but kinda unimpactful. Yeah, we'll try UNMI with those changes today, see how it goes. Even without the SP discount, 5.5 mc per energy prod is cheaper than any card save those with insane science reqs. Perhaps rather giving the player an option to pay 3 when SP-ing or playing a power tag to get one more prod?
I love tinkering with games and game balance - very interesting video. Have you seen the post on BGG with 12.500 games worth of data? I put that in spreadsheet and set some perimeters, and got some interesting results. Poseidon, Tharsis, Manutech and Saturn Systems overperform (each with 900 games or more). (Pharmacy, Septem, Splice, Utopia Invest and Philares also seem to overperform, but with less than 400 games each, it is too early to say.) At the other end of the scale Helion, Thorgate, Robinson, UNMI and Inventrix underperform (each with 1100 games or more) - while Terralabs and Recyclon seem to underperform, but again only based on roughly 400 games each. Do you have access to other data. Like OTML-data for 3-player games? I know that the data from BGG is for mixed quality players, but using a more narrow sample (i.e. elite players) will probably also make the data so scarce, that the confidence intervals make the data pretty useless. So, based on that, there is no pressing need to fix/balance Credicor, Teractor, Point Luna or Vitor. I will say though, that I think the fix to Vitor is way too harsh. At the very least I wouldn't take away the Vitor bonus from the cards that have ½, 1/3 or 1/4 victory points ( like animals or microbes) - so I'd say say that the MC gain would be "a minimum of 1". But frankly, I love about Vitor that it makes some cards more appealing than they are to other corps. Probably I'd just take the old Vitor and change the gain from +3MC to +2MC. That ought to do it. Cheers Martin :)
Hi :) I haven't seen the post on BGG, so I cannot comment on that. Even still, I think you might be right that the data might be based on mixed quality of players. Saturn and Tharsis outperforming is weird to see (Manutech and Poseidon make more sense). I did in fact make a video where I analyzed some game data - it's called "The best corps in Terraforming Mars - Analyzing OTML statistics", so you might want to check that out. But: this video where I provide some ideas on how to balance the corps in Terraforming Mars is based on my personal opinion on the strength of the corps. For example I think Vitor is the strongest corp in the base game + Preludes and that's why I felt a strong need to nerf it significantly.
UNMI would be a new S-tier corp, you just added about 20 MC worth of production. The Phobolog changes actually made it worse, you exactly pick it for the mentioned reason of finding a perfect starting hand not for consistency. The possibility of an explosive start is it's bread and butter. I don't wanna exchange that for 2 random space cards.
I think I overdid UNMI a bit yeah :D maybe it should just be one heat prod and one plant prod or we make it so that you get one heat and one plant whenever you use your ability (in addition to the TR) which would be even weaker. With Phobolog, I disagree. The added flexibility and the free cards make the corp much stronger on average, while keeping the possibility of explosive starts. You're still easily able to play Io Mining gen 1 for example.
yeah this is a good idea for UNMI, it fits the whole theme of convoy stuff from earth, i like it! Gotta test about the specific values, but could help the corp reach a heathy power level.@@marsexpert4276
I like this idea better! It fits the "convoy" theme of transporting stuff from earth very well. Gotta do some testing about the precise numbers (maybe completely replace the TR with resources like plants and/or heat), but that's a good way of adjusting it's power level I think. The problem is, it doesn't offer flexibility, because you only get to see the random cards after choosing your setup! There is no selection process like in the case of Valley Trust. Just imagine some possible scenarios: you find IOM, couple of science tags, some card draw. You think nice: what a great engine start and then you find something like Soletta. Or the other way around... which is much worse even, preparing for a rush with Aerobraking some strong space events that you wanna chain and a little plant prod, and the random cards are 2 Jovian multipliers. Great now they are worth literally 2 MC where there could've been 7 MC. Sure you may still play IOM. 5 MC difference on turn one is a big down side though. Maybe once in a while you get exactly what your chosen strategy desires, on average you won't. As someone who has a decent winrate with Phobolog trust me when I say: it is worse. If you instead change it to something similar to Valley Trust with actual flexibility we can talk again. @@marsexpert4276
@@pascalschmidt1442 With flexibility I mean: Phobolog is now pickable if you have no, or just limited space tags on your starting hand. Phobolog was good when you started with AM/Io and some card draw - but how often does that happen? With this change you cannot only draw into more space tags, you also have more MC to play other cards that can't be paid for with titanium.
(This is quite long comment, my Thorgate rebalance reaction is most interesting of them) ---- Point luna: I would say point luna draws around 6 cards for free on average if you get good hand at the beginning. Changing that to discard draw will cost you 18 MC. I don't think doing more will do this corporation any good, because the nerf of ability alone is quite brutal. I also think you should mention how to use this ability with the starting earth tag. How I understand it is that at the beginning you play your corporation card, which gives you the money and after that you pay for the cards. (You can't buy the cards if you don't have the money, some corporations even don't have enough money to buy 10 cards.) You would not be able to discard a card for your corporation earth tag, because you can't have any at the time. ---- Teractor: The difference in ability is not 1. The value of old ability is (3), the value of the new one is (1 + 1/n) where n is number of opponents. The same way as predators are not as good in 5 player game. But I think this makes the change even better, because in 5 player game the huge starting capital should be better for the corporation, since the game will be shorter. You need to explain how the stealing money from opponents work for earth tags on opponent corporations. Are corporation cards played at the same time or in certain order? ---- Vitor: I think you overestimate the ability of Vitor. The money you gain have lower value because cards with points are usually played at the end of the game. Vitor does not have any economical advantage in early game. The average rebait of 1.05 gets changed into 0.37 which is not great for cards that you play at the end. Don't forget you also lose 3 MC for the corporation point symbol. In comparison Cheung Shing Mars has average of 0.63 discount which I think is as good as Vitor's old ability since it works on cards that you play earlier making the rebait more valuable. ---- UNMI: I honestly don't understand this change at all. You added 5 production (2 MC, 2 heat, 1 plant). Making the ability cheaper will be more advantageous with good hand. When it costs 3 MC it is better in production than sponsors (sponsors are 2 MC production for 9 MC, new ability is 1 MC production for 1 MC). This will also make UNMI more dependent on good starting hand, because being able to terraform on every generation will make you have more advantages of the lowered price. I would not change the ability, because the old version is already better in MC production than sponsors and I would give it only 1 heat production. Or make the ability cost 4 MC instead of 3 MC and give it 2 heat production to make smaller difference between hands with low and high heat production cards smaller. ---- Thorgate: This change in ability gives the corporation the possibility to completely destroy the game. If in your starting hand you get Power infrastructure + Standard technology you can increase your MC production by 40% every generation. (Standard project Power plant costs 5 MC and increases power production by 2.) Gen 1: start: 35 MC ; 2 power prod (buy and play Power infrastructure and Standard technology for 3+4-3 + 3+6 = 13 MC) end: 0 MC ; 16 power prod Gen 2: start: 36 MC end: 1 MC ; 30 power prod Gen 3: start: 51 MC end: 1 MC ; 50 power prod Gen 4: start: 71 MC end: 1 MC ; 78 power prod Gen 5: start: 99 MC end: 4 MC ; 116 power prod Gen 6: start: 140 MC end: 0 MC ; 172 power prod Gen 7: start: 192 MC end: 2 MC ; 248 power prod Gen 8: start: 270 MC end: 0 MC ; 356 power prod Gen 9: start: 376 MC You can probably finish all terraforming with standard projects in gen 9, all of it would cost 9*15 + 14*20 + 19*11 = 624 MC. If other players don't terraform that much, you finish terraforming in gen 10. Remember this is without preludes so other players most likely can't end before gen 10 unless it is game with a lot of players.
Point Luna: I disagree that the change to the ability is enough, but it's debatable. The second point is very valid. I haven't looked into the rules to see how this would get triggered with the earth tag on the corp. Teractor: Yeah, I was talking about the difference in 2p games, but you're right. Teractor is very strong in 5p anyways. And I think the game itself should offer an explanation to the question how the ability get's triggered, since there's a similar case with Saturn Systems and Stormcraft. Vitor: Oh no, I don't think I overestimate the ability of Vitor and no, I don't think the original ability of Vitor is just relevant in the late game. Cards like Vesta Shipyard, House Printing, Rover Construction, Tardigrades, Natural Preserve, MarsU, ... are cards that are usually played in the early to mid game. Some of these are bad without Vitor's ability, some of them are great without it. When played by Vitor they are all good and that will be changed with the nerf. UNMI: I agree that I overdid it, but I think changing the ability to cost more while only adding 2 heat prod is absolutely the wrong way of changing the corp, since it wouldn't be a pure buff. I also don't understand the logic that changing the ability to cost only 1 MC is making the corporation more dependent on a good starting hand. If I changed Tharsis' ability to grant CSM's ability to grant a 4MC rebate on building tags, it wouldn't be more dependent on a good starting hand, it would just be stronger. You only make a corporation more dependent on its ability (and therefore in extension to its starting hand) by making all other aspects of the corp weaker. Thorgate: How do you end up with 36MC at the start of gen 2? SP Power increases your power prod, not your MC prod. It's not Helion. I agree the ability needs tweaking, maybe by removing the discount on SP Power, but I don't understand your calculation at all.
---- UNMI One of the problems of UNMI is, that the ability is not as good if you aren't able to use it in every generation. If you decrease the cost of the ability, the you will benefit from it in games where your starting hand is already above average (able to use ability every gen) which will make the difference between good and bad hand bigger than it was before. UNMI is even more dependent on the 10 starting cards if you play without prelude (heat/power production or ocean placement from preludes). Let's consider increasing heat production by 1 and increasing the cost of ability by 1. I think that is slight buff even if you would be able to use your ability every gen without this change. (1 heat production > 1 mc production) But there are some cases where you would have only 3/7 heat production without the change. In these cases it would be big buff for hands that are not that great. And if you happen to not be able to use your ability every gen, you will be slightly less punished for it, because part of the corporation strength was moved from the ability to the starting production. So even if you don't consider this buff, it makes the differences between good and bad hands smaller. The previous change was only slight buff overall with higher probability for good hand. Now we can increase the heat production by 1 more, which would be big buff overall (maybe 2 to 4 extra VP I would guess). It also makes some starting hands more accessible (when you would have 2 or 6 heat production without the change). This is how I got to 2 heat production and 1 more expensive ability. If it is not enough, we can: increase starting capital by 5 MC or make it draw free space event (can help with terraforming as well) or give it 2 MC discount for SP. (now SP Power plant for the 8th heat production or SP ocean is not as terrible as before) ---- Thorgate (base game without prelude): The formulation of the new ability is that: BOTH (cards with power tag AND SP Power plant) get BOTH (discount AND extra power production). So SP Power plant should give 2 power production for 5 MC if you have Standard technology at play. (11-3-3=5 MC, 1+1=2 power production) I haven't noticed it before, but with formulation "gain exactly one more power production", I guess Power infrastructure should give 1 power production when it is played. Gen 1: You have 2 power prod from your corporation + tag. You buy Power infrastructure + Standard technology (you need them in starting hand). Which changes you from 48 MC to 35 MC (3+4-3 + 6+3 = 13). You get extra power production for the power tag on Power infrastructure for playing it, leaving you at 3 power production. You now have 35 MC and 3 power prod. You use SP Power plant 7 times which leaves you at 17 power production. You end generation with 0 MC and 17 power production. Gen 2: You start with 20 MC (from TR) and 17 power units. You use Power infrastructure which changes you to 37 MC and no power units. Now you have 37 MC. Assuming power production = heat production: Even if you get neither Power infrastructure and Standard technology in your starting hand, you can still buy 2 (power) heat production with 8 money any amount of times per gen with just SP Power plant. That is 8 heat production for 32 MC (Soletta is 7 per 37 MC, Mohole area is 4 per 19 MC (assuming tile rebait is 6 MC)). Don't compare it to Underground detonation, because that would be 8 heat production for 49 MC and you can only play it once per gen.
I think the Point Luna nerf is too much. Switch the card effect as you did, but I don't think the rest needs to be done. Thorgate also needs the discount removed for the standard project if you are going to do the +1 to energy prod.
I honestly think Point Luna is fine as it is here - MarsU has carried so many games that I think it would be an insane corp ability. But I'd need to validate this by playtesting. And yeah, Thorgate should probably lose the discount on SP Power - getting two power for 8 whenever you want is probably a bit too busted :D
Overall all this corps need some sorte of change, some corps really can just use more or less initial credits, but other like pluna really need some rework on the ability. Overall solid change for corps that really really need it.
Ok, that is good, the last fan made cards are great, the promo card is useful, this channel is awesome, but please keep going with the rating of the base cards, it is almost a month you are not proceeding with that form. We have an incoming tournament and we need more tips Thanks :)
Great ideas. Maybe Point Luna shouldn't be nerfed that harsh - the ability is enough. Terractor could steal 2MC to make it more significant ability (like for example the ability of Philares). And nerfed Vitor should at least have 3 more MC (this way the starting capital would be the same as before nerf). UNMI's production may be too much (maybe give it just one heat prod which is very few but thematically enough and doesn't outshine Helion). I like the fact that Phobolog is unique and can't buy all cards but definitely would be much stronger with this draw on the first action - the other change isn't so necessary. I'm more interested in balancing the game with all expansions though (and with Colonies Thorgate probably should be changed another way).
Point Luna: I don't think just nerfing the ability would have been enough. MarsU is one of the best cards in the game and its effect as a corp ability is quite strong. Teractor: With 2MC, I think it's too strong - remember, because your opponents have to pay YOU the money, that would actually add up to a 4MC differential whenever they play an earth tag. Vitor: I agree with you, the starting capital should be raised a bit. The nerf to the ability is probably too severe for the corp to be viable. UNMI: Again, I kinda agree. 2 heat prod and 1 plant prod is a lot - playtesting would be needed. And yes, if you're playing with Colonies, Thorgate should probably be changed in a different way :D way too strong like this!
@@marsexpert4276 Right, maybe Terractor with buffed ability should have less capital. Or alternatively it should have weaker version of Earth Office: -2 discount.
Nice ideas. I also like that you don't go crazy. The credicor change for example I think makes perfect sense. Only for point luna you went a bit too far. Although maybe UNMI is also a bit crazy. Compared to helion it seems insane.
You and Mars University both try to fix Phobolog, and go down similar paths. Frankly, I'm not sure it can be fixed. I mean, why have so many crazy restrictions on your options with 63MC, when Terractor has no restrictions and 60MC. Those last 3MC surely aren't worth the hassle. If you want to make Phobolog interesting, then, IMO, it needs 1 titanium prod... or a complete overhaul. Kind regards Martin
Great points - but Phobolog of course also has an ongoing bonus, because if you get titanium prod, your future titanium resources will also all be worth more. Do I think that is worth the inflexibility at the start of the game? Absolutely not! But still, it needs to be considered.
For Point Luna I would rather give it an opportunity to pay 1 or 2 MC for the new card rather than rotating it, idea for Terractor is an interesting one, but psychologicaly, if I´d play agains it, I would never ever play Earth tag, since for Earth to use it properly, you need to play a lot of them for cartel for example
@@ondrejlinhart4881 interesting idea for Point Luna that would also nerf it significantly, since it's not strong economically. For Teractor: I think many earth tags are really strong on their own and you don't really need to get a lot of them down to make the most out of them. A card like Large Convoy ist just always great.
I like your ideas for Teractor and Vitor. Point Luna though becomes unplayably bad this way, probably worse than vanilla Thorgate. I mean that's 44 starting capital, Point Luna is poor to begin with to balance out the overpowered ability. The Mars U ability ist substantially worse since it relies on additional card draw which you don't have anymore now. I'd literally never pick it in this state.
Have you seen Mars Universities fixes? I think his phobolog and UNMI fixes are similar but i like them a bit more
No, I haven't seen them before making the video. I just looked into them now and they're definitely more creative than mine :D But I also think the changes are a little less impactful which is not a bad thing - I just think my changes would buff the corps more significantly. Again, not to say that's better or worse.
Sounds interesting! Where can I find them? I see no video specifically bringing it up on his channel.
@@Mrwutevah He has a playlist called how to fix
@@marsexpert4276 As a completely impartial observer here I have to agree that everything Mars University does is basically brilliant XD. I like your balance changes too though :)
@@Mrwutevah There's a playlist in my channel with all of them
Honestly, I love point luna's ability. I think it could probably be okay if PL didn't start with a Titanium production. That way its economy is abysmal (38 MC and no production meens its economic situation is only better than ecoline) so its ability is balanced out. This makes luna much less flexible because you really do need eath tags to play it instead of accepting the production with the thought that Luna usually works out.
Exactly - with my version Point Luna is more of a niche pick instead of being universally good. The way it is in Prelude, you can just pick it no matter the starting hand and you'll still get good value out of it most of the time.
OK, 3rd and final post.
I've been considering buffs to UNMI, Helion and Thorgate, as these corps are demonstrably bad. And I'd love to have your input.
First Helion, which I'm pretty happy with:
Still 42 MC. But 4 Heat prod.
Plus 2 abilities - (inspired by Ecoline):
1. 7 heat can be converted into 1Temperature increase OR 1 TR
2. 12 heat can be converted into 2 Temperature increases.
(The second one is both more point efficient and will allow you to compete for the temp track bonusses, while the TR option on the first one allows you to use your heat even when the track has been maxed out)
Improved enough?
Secondly UNMI, Which Mars University has also tackled (on youtube).
UNMI retains cash, tags and ability, but gains a secondary ability. These are my 3+1 favourites:
2a. When you raise TR, gain 1 heat resource.
2b. When you play an earth tag, gain 1 TR.
2c. You have a permanent 2MC discount and Standard Projects.
2d. I believe Jacob Fryxelis has suggested that the price of UNMIs ability should be just 1MC.
My concerns are:
2a. Very nice - around 4 "easy" TR bumps per game. But won't help you on that first turn.
2b. Will help on first turn, but could it become too good? Rush strategy will have a hard time drawing many Earth tags, and using/timing them could be awkward, hopefully keeping this in check.
2c. Could be a bit much combined with Standard Tech. Maybe. And may lead to a bland playstyle - SP and bump every turn.
2d. Fine I guess, but bland. Plus - will it help UNMI enough?
Finally Thorgate - reworked and not yet finished. Help appriciated:
Still 48 MC. 2 Power tags. No power-prod - but.....
1. Whenever you play a power tag, including these, increase your power production by 1 for each.
So, basically, you start with 2 power prod, and instead of the -3MC discount, you get +1 prod for power tag cards, so it scales in much the same way as the old ability (i.e. great effect on a cheap card, relatively smaller effect on an expensive card).
Now for the hard part: Thorgate needs a second ability, which allows them to do something special with their power. It should be both balanced, fun and thematic (and frankly, I have a hard time figuring out what power thematically does... except off-world trading like in Colonies).
I think it is a very interesting twist that unlike other currencies, you can't stockpile Power, because they turn into heat. This means that using them as some sort of currency is less likely to get out of hand.
I'm considering:
2a. Power can be used as 2MC for something thematic - perhaps space cards, oceans, standard projects or cities? Don't know. Or just 1MC.
2b. 4 power can be turned into oxygen (once per turn) - just like the ozygen bumper cards. Or perhaps for 5 but can be used multiple times? That ability would annoy the greenery based ground players. But useless once the oxygen track is maxed out.
2c. Power can be used to decrease global requirements (or all requirements?) on the next card you play.
2d. A colony like mechanic where Power can be traded for other resources. Perhaps 3:1 for standard resources. Or 4:1 for a special resource that you just placed as your last action? I'd probably not restrict it to once per turn... If that is too much on top of the Colonies expansion, (where Thorgate improves a bit), it might be worded so that the ability can only be used when there are no volonies.
Which do you think would be most balanced, thematic, unique and fun?
Kind regards
Martin
Hi :) I finally have some time to give some feedback to your last comment - overall great ideas, but I don't agree with all of them.
1. Helion:
First of all, I don't think Helion needs any extra work. I think it is an interesting corp and not too weak. Of course we could rework it and keep the power level roughly the same. For that I think you could use just the first ability you've laid out. Being able to convert 7 heat into a temperature bump is really good and being able to keep on scoring after the temperature is maxed out by taking straight up TR instead is even better! The second ability however I think is broken. An additional discount AND a really easy way to get the bonus ocean - I don't think that's balanced.
2. UNMI:
a) Very interesting, but imo too little to make it balanced - make it 2 heat or a plant instead
b) WAY too strong! A TR is worth roughly 8.5MC - that's too much value to get for free while playing earth tags.
c) Interesting, but a bit boring - would help with playing Asteroids when you're terraforming cards run out but you want to keep using your ability...
d) Makes sense, but too little to make UNMI a solid choice imo.
3. Thorgate:
I like your idea of power tags granting extra power - similar to mine where getting power prod grants extra power, but probably more balanced, since your version cannot be triggered by using the standard project. I think I overtuned Thorgate by quite a bit this video, so I think your version (without an extra ability) is already enough to make it balanced.
I like Phobolog change the best.
I'm a bit all over the place on these.
Credicor's nerf is simple and fair, albeit maybe just a bit too harsh - playtesting needed. Luna's is very fair in regards to the effect, but it might be too rough to also bring its economy down.
Teractor's nerf actually makes it a much more fun corporation, both to play with and against, as it influences everyone's decisionmaking both in draft and further play. I love it!
I really like the simple idea of Vitor's nerf, but the issue is that it's going to be so weak in the early stages of the game that I fail to see how to implement a successful strategy. Remember, this nerf effectively also reduces starting capital by 3. A more boring, but balanced nerf would in my opinion be to simply bring the cash-back down to 2, and game-test that.
UNMI's buff is too much. Setting as a general baseline that a corp should be valued around 65 MC (to keep merger fairly balanced as a prelude if nothing else), UNMI with your change starts, with just resources and production in mind, at 40+(5.5*2)+10=61 (or 62 with the earth tag). Priced at just 1, you can rather easily get a TR for almost nothing each generation, and with trackless TR valued in the range from 6.5-8.5, you surpass the total value of 65 from the corp extremely quickly. Our playgroup has set the price to 1 and changed nothing else, and it still sees barely any play though, so some other change might be needed to even it out. Perhaps a price of 2 for the TR and just a singular plant and heat prod instead?
Thorgate looks fun, but again, too strong. The science tag is a great addition, but adding essentially 7 MC of value (one power prod) to every single power tag seems just too disruptive for game balance. Perhaps if the rebate was also excluded? Still, this would oblige players to often deny power card because of the insane value for Thorgate, so I doubt it a bit. Perhaps throw in the ability to use energy as heat directly, alongside the science tag and an additional starting energy production, keeping the rebate as is? Or, instead get 1 energy resource every time you play an energy tag or use the SP, alongside some of the other buffs? A lot of different possibilities, for sure.
Our playgroup actually rates Phoblog higher than you, perhaps in part due to generally playing with the whole deck, excluding just Turmoil 60 % of the time. Especially with Turmoil in play, Phoblog can get a lot of value from getting Unity into power, but just with the extra space tags the other expansions offer (almost 25 % as opposed to 20 % in base+prelude) Phoblog becomes a lot more consistent. Some of the new cards are just perfect for Phoblog; the obvious like Earth elevator, 16 psych, Mining colony and Titan shuttles, but also Solar reflectors, Research colony, Ice moon colony and Trading colony are great. Still, it's a rather rarely picked corp due to the precise cards needed, so I'm all for some changes to make it more consistent and just a little stronger. I think your changes push it a bit too far though, at least in regards to the entire deck.
I would talk about Mining guild and Robinson industries, which I think both need a buff to be viable, but since you've rated them higher I'd first have to motivate them getting a buff, and this comment would just keep on growing. So for now, thanks for the video! Been thinking a lot about and trying to rebalance the corps in our playgroup, so it's nice to get some fresh ideas from you!
Credicor: What MC amount would you prefer? 52?
Point Luna: I truly think it's fine as is, but yes maybe playtesting would be needed.
Teractor: thanks I was actually quite proud of the idea :)
Vitor: I'd like to keep the ability like it is - maybe we could just increase the starting capital to 50?
UNMI: maybe 1 heat prod and 1 plant prod and the price of the ability at 1? Or at 2 like you suggested - playtesting would be needed.
Thorgate: yeah it's probably too strong, especially when using the SP power that now is a guaranteed 2 power prod for 8 and available all the time. Maybe we just remove the discount from the standard project? Of course when playing with Colonies, Thorgate would then still be too strong, but I did not include Colonies in my thought process, just base game and preludes.
Phobolog: Yeah, the expansions up Phobologs strength quite a bit - I see why you wouldn't want to buff it if you're playing mainly with them.
@@marsexpert4276 50 MC was the starting cash I had in mind for Credicor, but yeah, some nitpicking, really. Valuing the effect is tough and varies a lot from game to game, obviously.
PL is certainly a strong corp, but somewhat inconsistent. I concede that the effect nerf isn't too severe since you draw so many unwanted cards anyway, but the money from selling them is lost. Given you'll likely play 10-15 earth tags in a game, that's a decent bit of economy gone. Might play TM today, we'll see if we test out its new power level!
For Vitor, it does change the feel of the corp; no longer will it to the extent it is today be about playing cheap vp-cards and for the other players to block them, leaving the corp in a kind of... anonymous spot. Perhaps balanced with 50 starting cred, but kinda unimpactful.
Yeah, we'll try UNMI with those changes today, see how it goes.
Even without the SP discount, 5.5 mc per energy prod is cheaper than any card save those with insane science reqs. Perhaps rather giving the player an option to pay 3 when SP-ing or playing a power tag to get one more prod?
I love tinkering with games and game balance - very interesting video.
Have you seen the post on BGG with 12.500 games worth of data? I put that in spreadsheet and set some perimeters, and got some interesting results.
Poseidon, Tharsis, Manutech and Saturn Systems overperform (each with 900 games or more).
(Pharmacy, Septem, Splice, Utopia Invest and Philares also seem to overperform, but with less than 400 games each, it is too early to say.)
At the other end of the scale Helion, Thorgate, Robinson, UNMI and Inventrix underperform (each with 1100 games or more) - while Terralabs and Recyclon seem to underperform, but again only based on roughly 400 games each.
Do you have access to other data. Like OTML-data for 3-player games?
I know that the data from BGG is for mixed quality players, but using a more narrow sample (i.e. elite players) will probably also make the data so scarce, that the confidence intervals make the data pretty useless.
So, based on that, there is no pressing need to fix/balance Credicor, Teractor, Point Luna or Vitor.
I will say though, that I think the fix to Vitor is way too harsh.
At the very least I wouldn't take away the Vitor bonus from the cards that have ½, 1/3 or 1/4 victory points ( like animals or microbes) - so I'd say say that the MC gain would be "a minimum of 1".
But frankly, I love about Vitor that it makes some cards more appealing than they are to other corps. Probably I'd just take the old Vitor and change the gain from +3MC to +2MC. That ought to do it.
Cheers
Martin :)
Hi :)
I haven't seen the post on BGG, so I cannot comment on that. Even still, I think you might be right that the data might be based on mixed quality of players. Saturn and Tharsis outperforming is weird to see (Manutech and Poseidon make more sense).
I did in fact make a video where I analyzed some game data - it's called "The best corps in Terraforming Mars - Analyzing OTML statistics", so you might want to check that out.
But: this video where I provide some ideas on how to balance the corps in Terraforming Mars is based on my personal opinion on the strength of the corps. For example I think Vitor is the strongest corp in the base game + Preludes and that's why I felt a strong need to nerf it significantly.
For UNMI I always liked the idea of giving them a small discount/rebate on Standard Projects
Great idea as well!
UNMI would be a new S-tier corp, you just added about 20 MC worth of production. The Phobolog changes actually made it worse, you exactly pick it for the mentioned reason of finding a perfect starting hand not for consistency. The possibility of an explosive start is it's bread and butter. I don't wanna exchange that for 2 random space cards.
I think I overdid UNMI a bit yeah :D maybe it should just be one heat prod and one plant prod or we make it so that you get one heat and one plant whenever you use your ability (in addition to the TR) which would be even weaker.
With Phobolog, I disagree. The added flexibility and the free cards make the corp much stronger on average, while keeping the possibility of explosive starts. You're still easily able to play Io Mining gen 1 for example.
yeah this is a good idea for UNMI, it fits the whole theme of convoy stuff from earth, i like it! Gotta test about the specific values, but could help the corp reach a heathy power level.@@marsexpert4276
I like this idea better! It fits the "convoy" theme of transporting stuff from earth very well. Gotta do some testing about the precise numbers (maybe completely replace the TR with resources like plants and/or heat), but that's a good way of adjusting it's power level I think.
The problem is, it doesn't offer flexibility, because you only get to see the random cards after choosing your setup! There is no selection process like in the case of Valley Trust. Just imagine some possible scenarios: you find IOM, couple of science tags, some card draw. You think nice: what a great engine start and then you find something like Soletta. Or the other way around... which is much worse even, preparing for a rush with Aerobraking some strong space events that you wanna chain and a little plant prod, and the random cards are 2 Jovian multipliers. Great now they are worth literally 2 MC where there could've been 7 MC. Sure you may still play IOM. 5 MC difference on turn one is a big down side though. Maybe once in a while you get exactly what your chosen strategy desires, on average you won't. As someone who has a decent winrate with Phobolog trust me when I say: it is worse. If you instead change it to something similar to Valley Trust with actual flexibility we can talk again. @@marsexpert4276
@@pascalschmidt1442 With flexibility I mean: Phobolog is now pickable if you have no, or just limited space tags on your starting hand. Phobolog was good when you started with AM/Io and some card draw - but how often does that happen? With this change you cannot only draw into more space tags, you also have more MC to play other cards that can't be paid for with titanium.
(This is quite long comment, my Thorgate rebalance reaction is most interesting of them)
---- Point luna:
I would say point luna draws around 6 cards for free on average if you get good hand at the beginning. Changing that to discard draw will cost you 18 MC. I don't think doing more will do this corporation any good, because the nerf of ability alone is quite brutal.
I also think you should mention how to use this ability with the starting earth tag. How I understand it is that at the beginning you play your corporation card, which gives you the money and after that you pay for the cards. (You can't buy the cards if you don't have the money, some corporations even don't have enough money to buy 10 cards.) You would not be able to discard a card for your corporation earth tag, because you can't have any at the time.
---- Teractor:
The difference in ability is not 1. The value of old ability is (3), the value of the new one is (1 + 1/n) where n is number of opponents. The same way as predators are not as good in 5 player game. But I think this makes the change even better, because in 5 player game the huge starting capital should be better for the corporation, since the game will be shorter.
You need to explain how the stealing money from opponents work for earth tags on opponent corporations. Are corporation cards played at the same time or in certain order?
---- Vitor:
I think you overestimate the ability of Vitor. The money you gain have lower value because cards with points are usually played at the end of the game. Vitor does not have any economical advantage in early game.
The average rebait of 1.05 gets changed into 0.37 which is not great for cards that you play at the end. Don't forget you also lose 3 MC for the corporation point symbol. In comparison Cheung Shing Mars has average of 0.63 discount which I think is as good as Vitor's old ability since it works on cards that you play earlier making the rebait more valuable.
---- UNMI:
I honestly don't understand this change at all. You added 5 production (2 MC, 2 heat, 1 plant).
Making the ability cheaper will be more advantageous with good hand. When it costs 3 MC it is better in production than sponsors (sponsors are 2 MC production for 9 MC, new ability is 1 MC production for 1 MC). This will also make UNMI more dependent on good starting hand, because being able to terraform on every generation will make you have more advantages of the lowered price.
I would not change the ability, because the old version is already better in MC production than sponsors and I would give it only 1 heat production. Or make the ability cost 4 MC instead of 3 MC and give it 2 heat production to make smaller difference between hands with low and high heat production cards smaller.
---- Thorgate:
This change in ability gives the corporation the possibility to completely destroy the game.
If in your starting hand you get Power infrastructure + Standard technology you can increase your MC production by 40% every generation. (Standard project Power plant costs 5 MC and increases power production by 2.)
Gen 1:
start: 35 MC ; 2 power prod (buy and play Power infrastructure and Standard technology for 3+4-3 + 3+6 = 13 MC)
end: 0 MC ; 16 power prod
Gen 2:
start: 36 MC
end: 1 MC ; 30 power prod
Gen 3:
start: 51 MC
end: 1 MC ; 50 power prod
Gen 4:
start: 71 MC
end: 1 MC ; 78 power prod
Gen 5:
start: 99 MC
end: 4 MC ; 116 power prod
Gen 6:
start: 140 MC
end: 0 MC ; 172 power prod
Gen 7:
start: 192 MC
end: 2 MC ; 248 power prod
Gen 8:
start: 270 MC
end: 0 MC ; 356 power prod
Gen 9:
start: 376 MC
You can probably finish all terraforming with standard projects in gen 9, all of it would cost 9*15 + 14*20 + 19*11 = 624 MC. If other players don't terraform that much, you finish terraforming in gen 10. Remember this is without preludes so other players most likely can't end before gen 10 unless it is game with a lot of players.
Point Luna: I disagree that the change to the ability is enough, but it's debatable. The second point is very valid. I haven't looked into the rules to see how this would get triggered with the earth tag on the corp.
Teractor: Yeah, I was talking about the difference in 2p games, but you're right. Teractor is very strong in 5p anyways. And I think the game itself should offer an explanation to the question how the ability get's triggered, since there's a similar case with Saturn Systems and Stormcraft.
Vitor: Oh no, I don't think I overestimate the ability of Vitor and no, I don't think the original ability of Vitor is just relevant in the late game. Cards like Vesta Shipyard, House Printing, Rover Construction, Tardigrades, Natural Preserve, MarsU, ... are cards that are usually played in the early to mid game. Some of these are bad without Vitor's ability, some of them are great without it. When played by Vitor they are all good and that will be changed with the nerf.
UNMI: I agree that I overdid it, but I think changing the ability to cost more while only adding 2 heat prod is absolutely the wrong way of changing the corp, since it wouldn't be a pure buff. I also don't understand the logic that changing the ability to cost only 1 MC is making the corporation more dependent on a good starting hand. If I changed Tharsis' ability to grant CSM's ability to grant a 4MC rebate on building tags, it wouldn't be more dependent on a good starting hand, it would just be stronger. You only make a corporation more dependent on its ability (and therefore in extension to its starting hand) by making all other aspects of the corp weaker.
Thorgate: How do you end up with 36MC at the start of gen 2? SP Power increases your power prod, not your MC prod. It's not Helion. I agree the ability needs tweaking, maybe by removing the discount on SP Power, but I don't understand your calculation at all.
---- UNMI
One of the problems of UNMI is, that the ability is not as good if you aren't able to use it in every generation. If you decrease the cost of the ability, the you will benefit from it in games where your starting hand is already above average (able to use ability every gen) which will make the difference between good and bad hand bigger than it was before.
UNMI is even more dependent on the 10 starting cards if you play without prelude (heat/power production or ocean placement from preludes).
Let's consider increasing heat production by 1 and increasing the cost of ability by 1.
I think that is slight buff even if you would be able to use your ability every gen without this change. (1 heat production > 1 mc production)
But there are some cases where you would have only 3/7 heat production without the change.
In these cases it would be big buff for hands that are not that great.
And if you happen to not be able to use your ability every gen, you will be slightly less punished for it, because part of the corporation strength was moved from the ability to the starting production.
So even if you don't consider this buff, it makes the differences between good and bad hands smaller.
The previous change was only slight buff overall with higher probability for good hand.
Now we can increase the heat production by 1 more, which would be big buff overall (maybe 2 to 4 extra VP I would guess).
It also makes some starting hands more accessible (when you would have 2 or 6 heat production without the change).
This is how I got to 2 heat production and 1 more expensive ability.
If it is not enough, we can:
increase starting capital by 5 MC
or make it draw free space event (can help with terraforming as well)
or give it 2 MC discount for SP. (now SP Power plant for the 8th heat production or SP ocean is not as terrible as before)
---- Thorgate (base game without prelude):
The formulation of the new ability is that: BOTH (cards with power tag AND SP Power plant) get BOTH (discount AND extra power production).
So SP Power plant should give 2 power production for 5 MC if you have Standard technology at play. (11-3-3=5 MC, 1+1=2 power production)
I haven't noticed it before, but with formulation "gain exactly one more power production", I guess Power infrastructure should give 1 power production when it is played.
Gen 1:
You have 2 power prod from your corporation + tag.
You buy Power infrastructure + Standard technology (you need them in starting hand). Which changes you from 48 MC to 35 MC (3+4-3 + 6+3 = 13).
You get extra power production for the power tag on Power infrastructure for playing it, leaving you at 3 power production.
You now have 35 MC and 3 power prod. You use SP Power plant 7 times which leaves you at 17 power production.
You end generation with 0 MC and 17 power production.
Gen 2:
You start with 20 MC (from TR) and 17 power units.
You use Power infrastructure which changes you to 37 MC and no power units.
Now you have 37 MC.
Assuming power production = heat production:
Even if you get neither Power infrastructure and Standard technology in your starting hand, you can still buy 2 (power) heat production with 8 money any amount of times per gen with just SP Power plant.
That is 8 heat production for 32 MC (Soletta is 7 per 37 MC, Mohole area is 4 per 19 MC (assuming tile rebait is 6 MC)).
Don't compare it to Underground detonation, because that would be 8 heat production for 49 MC and you can only play it once per gen.
I think the Point Luna nerf is too much. Switch the card effect as you did, but I don't think the rest needs to be done.
Thorgate also needs the discount removed for the standard project if you are going to do the +1 to energy prod.
I honestly think Point Luna is fine as it is here - MarsU has carried so many games that I think it would be an insane corp ability. But I'd need to validate this by playtesting.
And yeah, Thorgate should probably lose the discount on SP Power - getting two power for 8 whenever you want is probably a bit too busted :D
@@marsexpert4276 I'm loving your new Thorgate version. Awesome to play with standard tech! Might be overpowered but now feels fun.
Overall all this corps need some sorte of change, some corps really can just use more or less initial credits, but other like pluna really need some rework on the ability. Overall solid change for corps that really really need it.
Ok, that is good, the last fan made cards are great, the promo card is useful, this channel is awesome, but please keep going with the rating of the base cards, it is almost a month you are not proceeding with that form.
We have an incoming tournament and we need more tips
Thanks :)
Hahaha thanks mate, I'll keep the videos coming. The next episode of RBGC is coming out in 6 days!
Great ideas. Maybe Point Luna shouldn't be nerfed that harsh - the ability is enough. Terractor could steal 2MC to make it more significant ability (like for example the ability of Philares). And nerfed Vitor should at least have 3 more MC (this way the starting capital would be the same as before nerf). UNMI's production may be too much (maybe give it just one heat prod which is very few but thematically enough and doesn't outshine Helion). I like the fact that Phobolog is unique and can't buy all cards but definitely would be much stronger with this draw on the first action - the other change isn't so necessary.
I'm more interested in balancing the game with all expansions though (and with Colonies Thorgate probably should be changed another way).
Point Luna: I don't think just nerfing the ability would have been enough. MarsU is one of the best cards in the game and its effect as a corp ability is quite strong.
Teractor: With 2MC, I think it's too strong - remember, because your opponents have to pay YOU the money, that would actually add up to a 4MC differential whenever they play an earth tag.
Vitor: I agree with you, the starting capital should be raised a bit. The nerf to the ability is probably too severe for the corp to be viable.
UNMI: Again, I kinda agree. 2 heat prod and 1 plant prod is a lot - playtesting would be needed.
And yes, if you're playing with Colonies, Thorgate should probably be changed in a different way :D way too strong like this!
@@marsexpert4276 Right, maybe Terractor with buffed ability should have less capital. Or alternatively it should have weaker version of Earth Office: -2 discount.
Instead of giving UNMI production, why not just make the action free?
Again, because I think UNMI should actually be good at terraforming. And reducing the cost to 1MC is nearly making it free :D
I think Credicor isn't that OP and this nerf would make it shit/boring.
I think it's certainly op, but I can see where you're coming from. Maybe the MC reduction should be a little less severe.
Nice ideas. I also like that you don't go crazy. The credicor change for example I think makes perfect sense. Only for point luna you went a bit too far. Although maybe UNMI is also a bit crazy. Compared to helion it seems insane.
Yeah, some of the corps are changed dramatically, others aren't - I just wanted to mix it up and hopefully bring them all a bit closer to the average.
The disrespect for Robinson is crazy. Access to 4mc power and early plant production is great.
It's definitely a good corp and underrated as well, but I wouldn't put it into the same tier as Point Luna or Credicor.
You and Mars University both try to fix Phobolog, and go down similar paths.
Frankly, I'm not sure it can be fixed.
I mean, why have so many crazy restrictions on your options with 63MC, when Terractor has no restrictions and 60MC. Those last 3MC surely aren't worth the hassle.
If you want to make Phobolog interesting, then, IMO, it needs 1 titanium prod... or a complete overhaul.
Kind regards
Martin
Great points - but Phobolog of course also has an ongoing bonus, because if you get titanium prod, your future titanium resources will also all be worth more. Do I think that is worth the inflexibility at the start of the game? Absolutely not! But still, it needs to be considered.
For Point Luna I would rather give it an opportunity to pay 1 or 2 MC for the new card rather than rotating it, idea for Terractor is an interesting one, but psychologicaly, if I´d play agains it, I would never ever play Earth tag, since for Earth to use it properly, you need to play a lot of them for cartel for example
@@ondrejlinhart4881 interesting idea for Point Luna that would also nerf it significantly, since it's not strong economically.
For Teractor: I think many earth tags are really strong on their own and you don't really need to get a lot of them down to make the most out of them. A card like Large Convoy ist just always great.
Thorgate - add ability to use energy as heat/cash
Great idea, but in my mind that would make it too similar to Helion.
I like your ideas for Teractor and Vitor. Point Luna though becomes unplayably bad this way, probably worse than vanilla Thorgate.
I mean that's 44 starting capital, Point Luna is poor to begin with to balance out the overpowered ability. The Mars U ability ist substantially worse since it relies on additional card draw which you don't have anymore now. I'd literally never pick it in this state.
I truly think Point Luna is fine as is, but yes maybe playtesting would be needed.