WHY Did Vander Betray Silco? (And WHEN?) | 1min Analysis (Arcane Theory)
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- #Netflix #LeagueOfLegends #Zaun
Vander and Silco look quite young in the flashback to the betrayal. If this was BEFORE Vander became a pacifist and BEFORE Silco became obsessed with monsters, what was the conflict about? A couple crucial lines of dialogue reveal a philosophical difference that seems to have divided Vander and Silco even before their outlooks on life had matured fully. Silco’s need for respect had no place in Vander’s master plan of community building. Conversely, the indignity of Vander’s vision renders it useless in Silco’s eye.
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0:43 I love how indignant Silco sounds when he says "For _respect!"_ I don't think he would have said it that way if talking to _anyone_ else. Silco still sees Vander as a brother, and so Vander can get under his skin in a way that no one else can. Hearing Vander, in Silco's eyes at least, simplify it like that is genuinely hurtful. He feels like Vander should understand, is maybe one of the only people who can truly understand, and that he doesn't digs at Silco in a way very few things can. It also has the vibe of having planned this grand master speech to really one-up someone who beat you in an argument a long time ago, and then they just don't respond the way you want them to and the entire fantasy falls apart. Like Silco had secretly hoped he'd be able to say all of his plans to Vander and Vander would go "Oh, yeah mate, you've got the right of it."
I love this, it’s really one of the only times silco is speaking with emotion, he’s speaking to communicate not to manipulate, which I’m not sure can be 100% confirmed for many other lines of his
Ohhh I wrote a comment about the same thing! Even so, you've articulated it in such a way that I didn't even think about, but the very feeling you describe--of Vander getting under his skin--is what I felt when watching the scene for the 1st time!!! It's was absolutely subconscious and you've put into words what even I couldn't with a comment about the exact same phrase! I love how it both stuck with us!!
@@raininghail4049 ohh, yes! So well said!!! Exactly! GOD I love the writing in this show!!!
I absolutely adore the line in the german version. He sounds a bit more angry, its raw, as he cant wrap his mind around it that Vander ddoes not understand him.
Hell, reading your comment I realized that until then Silco had always kept the hope of reconciliation with Vander
I always felt like Vander and Silco used to be opposite back then, with Vander being the extremist and Silco being the pacifier. Vander definitely seemed like the more violent, more murderous person in that flashback.
Something angered him enough to kill Silco for something, either Silco may have tried to stop the assault, or Vander knew Silco was the best candidate to lead and so tries to make himself the sole candidate.
Stronger doesn't mean violent.
@@cybercriminal3110 No, but trying to choke a man to death means violent.
I've watched this show months ago, it's a bit cloudy for me. But That's what I thought too. In the past, Vander was the aggressive extremist person while Silco is more of a strategist pacifist type.
Something happened between them that drove Vander to try and kill Silco. Maybe Vander was planning an attack, but Silco being the pacifist, made a deal with the enforcers and exposed Vander's plan in exchange for peace. After Silco's "death" Vander realized violence isn't the answer, then he built a relationship with the enforcers for peace, like what Silco "did" and we saw the fruit of this relationship in the earlier episodes of the Show. Silco realized that being a pacifist will not make people listen to you and then the rest is history.
There's so much opportunity for their backstory, plus parallels too. I hope we see more of their backstory, but it's improbable since they're both dead.
I think this can also be taken from Vander's advice to Vi about her fists just creating more problems (or something along those lines). Anytime he tries to teach her to talk things out first instead of fighting, it seems like he's talking from personal experience.
That "for RESPECT" line is one my favorites ever. I was watching this for the first time, hooked and enchanted, trying to follow all the amazing emotions and motives that were happening--and I'd just adopted a new cat a few hours ago and she was sleeping on my lap--and that single line made everything clunk into place. Silco is complex so it's far more than just respect, but at the same time, the masterful, spitting delivery and the slight pause makes me see it as Silco viewing respect as one of THE most powerful things in the world, and in that moment, gaining respect is the ONLY thing that matters. It's masterful--like his entire personality is summed up in a single venomous word.
But it is the respect that one should have for a bear or a venomous snake, that he is seeking. The respect that you KNOW what will happen if you cross me. The reason that the rattlesnake rattles, is not because it is hunting, but rather because it is letting the hunter know it is about to make a serious mistake, and that perhaps it should seek its meal elsewhere.
The drowning scene happened before the day of Ash and silco became who he was later because of what vander did to him and he modeled his entire philosophies later in life on how Vander was prior.
When silco says to jinx, Vander is not the man you thought he was there's a reason for this.
Vander was a far more brutal man than silco was before they had their fight in the water.
Also remember when benzo tried to step up and wanted to fight silco? The first thing silko says back to him is: "you never did know when to walk away"
This is actually more of a clue at showing that silco was more likely to be the one that didn't want to resort to violence before he fought Vander in the water.
It's the only thing that makes sense. Silco was not the person he later was before their fight.
What they're discussing in episode 3 when Vander is handcuffed doesn't have anything to do with that because it doesn't make any narrative sense.
++ Yes!
Pov: you read into a good amount of these things in shows but never thought this deep
I don't remember any lines that Silco wants "destruction" to Piltover. I interpreted it as:
1. Be a threat, or at least not be seem as "harmless". He wants to "scare" the topside, he wants topside to see that they can't just send enforcers and bully their people. In real life, for one to be able to command respect sometimes one must first have the ability to fight back (hitting the gym, building strength) and confidence will follow. People don't usually punch people who can punch back. This is why he wants Jinx to make the weapon.. he never said that he WILL destroy Piltover with it but he sure wants to HAVE it.. to be a threat.
2. Sacrifice the now for the future. Yes, he did Zaun bad.. but to him it is a necessary sacrifice. He has children working on shimmer, one is even the son of a chembaron BUT HEY.. they have better working conditions that what SIlco and Vander had working in the mines when they were children. Silco's ways reminds me of Max Brooks World War Z, the Redeker character (please read the book it's wonderful, the movie with Brad Pitt is trash and deemed non-canon by the author).
I am biased though because I empathise with Silco in a personal level. Letting myself be ostracized/hated for making "necessary decisions" for the betterment of my family :) Because no one has the guts to do the right/needed things if it involves hurting some feelings or changing status quo. INTJ-T here if that even hold water nowadays.
++
I agree with you
I also agree, I just wanted to add that the way I interpreted it in the video is that the destruction of Piltover is not Silco's goal, but only a means to an end. The real goal is the independence of Zaun and he is willing to wage war in order to earn it.
@Nyankouen Completely agree with you, Silco is my favorite character, ans everything he does is for the greater good of all in a way. INFJ-T
I think the point is that Vander saw it as destruction but even then still wanted to follow Silco and regrets what he did because he too believed in his dream, just not the means he would go to achieve it
Hi!If you’re interested in typology I would recommend researching the cognitive functions!If you are actually an intj and not mistyped(as the Myerz Briggs online test is shit) your cognitive functions are:
Dominant function- Ni(introverted intuition)
Auxiliary function- Te(extroverted thinking)
Tertiary function- Fi(introverted feeling)
Inferior function- Se(extroverted thinking)
Google does a pretty good job explaining them.(But be careful because there are a lot of misinformation and stereotypical shit around including the intj-t thingy).Typing yourself with cognitive functions requires more self knowledge and will provide much more insight about the way your brain works. I hope you’ll find this useful, if so, have fun♡
I agree with silco because in the end it feels like all he wants is for Zaun to have the best even if it’s in the bad ways
My guess as to WHY Vander betrayed Silko was that while Vander was content to Placate the Enforcers to avoid further Bloodshed, Silko was not. He wanted Topsiders to know that The Lanes WILL fight back if provoked.
I got you.
Then why do they look younger?
This scene take place before Vander wants to placate the enforcers though. He is younger than the scene where he adopted his girls during his war, which caused the change in what he was willing to do to the topside.
What still gets me is Vander chose one of the most brutal, personal ways possible to kill Silco, I don't believe that was fueled by some sort of 'greater good'.
I disagree about the destruction of Piltover part; "Respect, opportunity, everything they've denied us." It's established quite early that the people from Piltover do not respect them, as seen by the council telling Greyson & Marcus to do 'whatever it takes' and they are denied opportunities; "A poor cripple from the undercity. I was an outsider the moment I stepped foot in Piltover." "Do you think it was my life's ambition to be an assistant?". Even as brilliant as we see that Viktor is he's essentially been given a position out of pity by Heimerdinger with no opportunity to rise out of it which is why he risks throwing it all away by helping Jayce.
You can argue Silco's methods were wrong but his goal (I believe) was to put Zaun on equal footing with Piltover and if they don't respect them then that will never happen.
I have issues with Vander that are largely overlooked by fans cause he's 'the good guy' but he maintains a status quo that's continuing a cycle of turning the undercities children (Deckard, Vi, etc) into criminals and judging by his conversation with Benzo in ep1 they're running some sort of protection racket.
++
Agreed. I believe the *root* of the betrayal was as Schnee posits, but we still don't know the real *why*. What did Vander or Silco do or say that caused Vander to snap? How did he lure him to the water? Was it a spur of the moment act? Was it planned? I NEED MORE INFORMATION RIOT AND FORTICHE!!
100% this comment.
Vander was clearly consumed with rage when he tried to kill Silco. I do not believe this act was planned or plotted in advance, possibly also why Vander regrets what he did (the show implies that Vander had this "monster" of violence inside him). But why, we still don't know.
I suspect it was a personal reason. I like the thought that at some point Vander wanted to fight and Silco was trying more manipulative/political solutions (Vander is the brawn, Silco is the brains). Maybe this inaction/meddling on Silco's part cost Vander someone he loved and he took out his grief and hate on his brother.
Would love to find out more in season 2 if it's a part of the plot somehow :)
@@MechWomanWarrior15 ++ That's definitely it
@@MechWomanWarrior15 I'd considered the idea that the Silco/Jinx and Vander/Vi parallels could go beyond what we've seen, where whatever happened between them mirror Vi hitting Powder and walking away for her mistake but just much more extreme. I doubt we'll ever get the full picture which I hate it but I also like, because I enjoy the speculation.
Silco tells Deckard about this lesson he learnt “when I was about your age” that “power comes to those who would do anything to achieve it”
But, Silco did not get power. He got drowned. He got pushed down to his lowest. What he did to Vander on the day of the betrayal (stabbing and slicing him) was simply to free himself. He’s been lurking in the shadows ever since, and though he plans ahead, he has no guarantee that he will succeed, even if he’s now ready to do anything to get there… He has not yet achieved power. Ever actually, as far as we can tell.
So… What if he’s actually talking about Vander?
Probably because Silco wanted Piltover’s respect and was not satisfied with the Lanes’ respect. (As per their dialogue in episode 3). I am envisioning Vander as someone who was much more brutal, much more power driven. Someone who helped Silco craft the Lanes with his charisma but also (mostly) his fists. He was a “Hound”, and as we meet him I feel like we’re blinded by the fact he argues for peace and is a good father figure... But, we meet Vander caving someone’s skull in, and his first dialogue is to threaten two people of death over short changing someone in his pub.
Vander also threatens Marcus explicitly, relying heavily on his reputation with his gauntlets. His reputation as a killer. He’s not some benevolent ruler, and he doesn’t exactly take feedback either. Sevika leaves after he refuses to yield. Sure we don’t want him to sacrifice the kids either but… it’s just a strong representation of his word being as good as the law, and that being backed by his reputation as a dangerous man.
SO!! What if Vander did “anything to achieve power” :
Drowning his beloved brother - and… yeah, it worked.
Silco was pushed to the shadows, and Vander achieved total domination of the Lanes.
This makes for a more linear progression of his character, and a simpler explanation over all. Nothing dire needs to have happened. They reached a point where leadership could be seized. Vander took it. Maybe Silco said something to enrage him, or resisted being “demoted” and things escalated. It’s very easy to imagine young Vander having little control over his anger issues.
At this point we can say that Vander was not the man we met in the series, he was someone brutal, and Silco is the product of this brutality, he is like a kind of karma that reminds Vander of the monster he was before.
(credits to @AllTheBlueDaddies)
A strong community can bring a lot of good to people, but on top of that, there's a government. If a government don't respect their people, ignore them, the people will suffer, however good the communities they built are. I'm with Silco on this one, community and dignity is not enough, you need the rulers to respect their people and give them opportunities to grow. That's what the people in Piltover had, and what the people in the Undercity were denied and were fighting for.
And his schism with Vander started when he wanted to pick a fight that Vander didn't approve of because the body count would be devastating. Like what Vander said to Vi on the bridge. "Are you ready to lose Mylow, Clagger, or Powder?"
But to that same token, they didn't have to put up with abuse from enforcers like Marcus who threatened to bury them on some power trip, dick swinging energy.
Being a community kept them alive, yes, but the oppression kept them from really living. Mind you, that doesn't justify pushing shimmer and making child soldiers, but if you stand up to your bullies, they're less likely to fight back. For the sake of the story, I get that Silco is the antagonist, but he's not a monster.
"You had my respect. The Lane's respect. But that...that was never enough for you."
If this is a key phrase/clue...then I find this very confusing. On one hand it almost sounds like Vander disagreed with Silco's desire to rebel against Piltover at all. On the other, it could be that maybe Silco has an ambition for personal gain that Vander doesn't agree with because it superseeds the goal of bettering Zaun.
Neither of these make sense to me. Silco says that him and Vander shared the vision of a united Undercity, of a free nation. An identity that could not exist without removing inteference from Piltover. Vander would also not have been on the bridge at the opening of the show if he disagreed with fighting against Piltover.
The second is more likely, but I still don't see it. Throughout the show, Silco is cold, cruel, and ruthless, but never, in my perception, selfish, greedy, or a megalomaniac. He is true and loyal to his cause, everything else, and everything he does, is just a means to an end. I find it highly unlikely that Silco was once greedy and consumed with power and then pivoted back to being a patriot. But I also deeply identify with Silco so I could be biased here.
...I'm just gonna say they disagreed over a girl cuz I honestly have no clue why they argued in the first place. XD
(It was a heck of a lot easier to interpret the betrayal as happening after the bridge scene...)
I always thought that scene was a result of miscommunication, like it was supposed to happen after the bridge scene, but the animator thought it was supposed to be younger versions of the characters, but thinking on it now Silco seems mentions that Vander “playing lapdog” was unrelated to their initial falling out
@Tobias John I'd like to think we will. If Vander really is this Warwick character (I am only an Arcane fan, not a LoL player, so I'm basing that on what other people have said), then he may have some flashbacks/remember a few things, and I'm sure that Silco told Jinx, probably multiple times, why Vander tried to kill him, judging specifically by their dialogue at her "baptism" scene.
That's definitely a great way to look at it. I would in fact consider Silco a "slave" of sorts to his cause since everything he does and move he makes is to further it. Jinx is the only "problem" towards the cause that he doesn't try to fix or get rid of.
Maybe slightly off topic, but it's been fascinating to me that Silco has such an altruistic goal and yet goes about achieving it in often such cold and non-benevolent ways. I know he thinks he has to be ruthless and unsympathetic to achieve it - the "emotion/a moral compass makes you weak because it clouds your judgement to make the most efficient and successful decisions" mentality (hence the "weak man" Silco claims to have let "die" when Vander tried to kill him) but it's interesting to me he's still trying to achieve it at all - is it really undying altruism at heart, or is his life so empty (even possibly with Jinx) that he always needs something to fight for (or against)? Who would Silco be if Zaun actually won independence? How would that change him? What would he do then? Would his love for Jinx influence any of that?
(Those are rhetorical questions, btw.)
I think it was probably ambition for personal gain/ perhaps immoral methods. You say Silco is never selfish throughout the show or megalomaniac but one of his defining quotes is about how “real power only comes to those who’ll do anything to achieve it”. Sounds like he’s just power hungry.
Not to mention he was willing to kill children to achieve it, so who knows what kind of fucked up stuff he did in the past that made Vander want to kill him. Not to mention he treats his own citizens like trash. He’s spreading drugs (shimmer) throughout his own community, creating addicts who can’t function in society and live secluded and disfigured, and also uses them as monster henchman to do his bidding, yet we’re supposed to believe he’s fighting for a righteous cause when his own people directly suffer due to him? I think it’s clear why Vander betrayed him with all this information. He was and is power hungry and evil so he went too far in terms of his methods and goals.
@@ReblazeGaming I think "went too far" is the big takeaway here. They both wanted power. The difference was, "at what cost?" Silco said that innocent lives were an acceptable price to pay, but at some point, Vander did not. And that's what caused their schism, imo. That's why post-Bridge Vander is dedicated to helping people and preventing harm on a day-to-day basis: because he decided that the people of Zaun are more important than their goals.
@@ReblazeGaming I don’t think that Silco’s “power” speech is as character-defining as it appears, a lot because of context. Silco is trying to coerce Deckard into taking the shimmer. Deckard and his gang have just gotten trounced by a group of “kids,” and even though he was armed with a knife, Deckard fled from Vi. He thought he was a tough guy and proved himself to be weak and a coward. What better way in this moment to manipulate Deckard than to promise him strength and power?
Silco does believe in doing anything to achieve goals, but I don’t think that personal power is one of them. To my recollection, Silco never mentions wanting to rule or conquer, or even to just govern and lead. He does become the de-facto leader of the undercity “enterprise” and at least a good portion of his wealth and power comes from the production of shimmer. But when making his deal with Jayce, not only is he willing to give that all up, but when talking to Vander’s statue later, he laments “what would I lose but problems,” indicating, to me anyway, that he feels running the shimmer industry, even with everything it gives him, is a burden that does not outweigh the benefits - that being a kingpin/ruler is not what he really wants. He also does not ask Jayce to recognize him as leader of the nation of Zaun and even offers himself up in place of Jinx.
It is very likely Silco either did or was going to do something that angered Vander, but I would also like to venture that it is equally just as likely that Silco refused to do something Vander wanted him to do. If Silco was planning something extremely immoral or evil, this would go against the transformation of his character that Silco claims happened when Vander tried to drown him. If Silco decided that day to bury his moral compass and any emotions that would interfere with logical decisions - the parts that Silco feels made him weak - then, as difficult as it may be to imagine, it’s very likely that Silco was a relatively good man before their fallout, and that it may have in fact been Vander who was advocating for more violent/immoral/evil methods to be used.
One of the writers made a comment that both Vander and Silco fought together against Piltover on the Bridge. Silco's scrawny form leads me to believe he was more of a strategist/support leader than a front line combat shock trooper like Vander. The attempted murder of Silco by Vander would have happened shortly after Vander left the bridge with the girls. The sky was still red and dark, so before that morning, while the fires still burned in the Undercity.
From Vander's point of view: He wanted to stop the fighting while there were still people left in the Undercity, even if that meant they would live under the heel of Piltover, at least they would still live. (My opinion, he wasn't wrong in that they were going to lose and be exterminated if they assaulted again)
From Silco's view: Silco wanted to press Piltover, feeling if they could just press across the bridge and hold the far side come morning that Piltover would finally yield and let the Undercity be independent. He was preparing to mount another assault. (My Opinion, the Undercity would not stop fighting for freedom, but the needed more firepower, Silco just didn't have that firepower YET!)
Conclusion, Vander was right to seek a ceasefire, he horribly miscalculated by trying to kill Silco, he should have forced him to relent on pressing for another immediate attack. Vander was wrong to think that he alone could make the City comfortable living under oppression, Vander failed to read the room, he thought their exhaustion was like his, permanent. It was only temporary, and the city would tear him and his family apart if he stood in their way that is what we saw at the town hall meeting in EP2, Vander's rule was ending, he just didn't see it yet. Silco had taken no action against Vander in all these years, till Vander lost the support of the City, all because Vi didn't listen to him and broke the rules of the secret agreement he had with the Enforcers.
I believe Vander contacted Piltover (Greyson) and asked what it would take for a cease fire after leaving the bridge with the girls, and she asked for Silco's head as they knew someone was rousing for another attack, that is how Vander purchased his little slice of the Undercity from Piltover. Silco ,after some time, saw that Vander was correct that another attack that night wouldn't have worked, they were outgunned, and now their manpower was depleted. Silco was young and manic in his press for victory, Vander couldn't let Silco rouse the people for another charge as there were so few adults left (notice the missing generation in the Undercity), so Vander felt he had no choice but to kill Silco, when he failed and Silco fled (injured), Vander told the Undercity that Silco fled the Undercity as a coward, and that they probably wouldn't ever see him again, Vander knew this was a lie, they wouldn't see him due to him being injured and by the time Silco tried to show his face again the rumor would be taken as truth thus stopping Silco from ever being able to rally another assault, this is why Benzo thought he could scare Silco off with an enforcer's baton, and why Vander KNEW Benzo couldn't (watch Vander's face in that scene), because Vander knew Silco WASN'T a coward, and Vander knew that when Silco showed up again he would only do so if he were unstoppable. This also explains the wording of Silco's un-subtle threat leveled at Vander and his children "Have you heard the rumor, the coward Vander feld with his children, never to be seen again." Silco still yet wanted to re-recruit Vander back into the fight, Silco only ordered their death's after the bomb went off. However, He was going to allow Vi to get herself killed if she attacked them, just as Benzo got himself killed by attacking him outside his shop. Silco only attacked the Enforcers. Yes, he did attack Vander, but Vander KNEW why he was attacked and accepted it, he was an attempted Fratricide, he knew he earned his execution, but Silco offered him redemption instead, and Vander spit on Silco's offered grace. Silco's loyalty to Vander was so great he would have forgiven his attempted murder, because he came to realize Vander was right at the time, but now Silco was right to move for freedom once again. This time Silco had a way to win without getting countless people killed on the bridges, he could win with only the threat of unleashed horrors. If Vander had re-joined him, the Undercity would have been free without a war within a year, before Hextech could have presented the problems it did later in the story.
Silco only moved against Vander after he found out Vander has been working for the Enforcers after meeting with Marcus (who was pissed at his boss, Greyson, for treating Vander as if he were someone "respectable") Silco meets with Sevika (off screen) to recruit her as she holds sway over what is left of the veterans from the Bridge war, Sevika doubts Silco's claims until Vander holds the town hall meeting and she sees that Vander is hiding from the confrontation and feels that Silco is correct and that it was Vander, this whole time, that was a coward, Vander had betrayed them in exchange for being a petty underling, so she brings the veterans to Silco's camp. This is why Sevika wasn't betraying Vander, Sevika's Loyalty never changed, she just believed that Vander wasn't on their side. Vander believed he was doing the best thing for the Undercity, but he was short sighted, he saw how to recover from the bridge battle, but once the Undercity recovered they were going to fight again, and he wasn't capable of leading them to war, and he couldn't keep the peace any longer. This is why he turned himself in, if they took Vi he would have to fight again...
Did you notice how "Turned-On" Silco became when he finally saw Vander fight at the Cannery? Silco was desperate to see Vander fight again. Even if it was against him, he wanted to see that fire in him just once more, if he wouldn't fight alongside him. Silco wanted everyone to live free or die fighting. Vander just wanted everyone (except Silco) to live. Quote Ekko to Heimerdinger here.
Vander raised children to be street thieves, Silco raised the next generation of factory workers, Silco raised a generation to produce more pies, and Vander just raised a generation to smash what little pie they had left.
You cannot say Silco could have done things better, and think that Vander did nothing wrong. Vander was a warmer father, but a terrible one. He was a likeable leader, but a terrible one. Silco was a cold and distant father, but he didn't raise criminals (Shimmer wasn't illegal, but it could be abused), he was a harsh and ruthless leader, but he accomplished what the people both wanted and needed, freedom (for those that don't know, Zaun does win its independence check the lore)
I feel like this is a little too harsh on Vander but I overall agree. This would be an awesome background for the two of them! I never really understand when people say that Silco has child labourers whilst families are literally starving in the streets, everyone has to pull their weight here or they die. Everyone always looks at this through the lens of our current climate, where we have school and the advantage of not having to work or die. There seems to be no deeper thinking on the world they live in. That’s a rant but anyway, I really like your hypothesis.
@@lumenx7499 Child Labor was only recently abolished in Western countries in my Father's lifetime (Around World War 2). England stopped Child mining and factory work earlier (the most brutal forms), but other forms of child labor persisted till later.
@@lumenx7499 The belief that child labor is a terrible injustice, is a luxury that only heavily developed societies can afford.
I love your interpretation, but there is a detail that you forget, the assassination attempt on Silco was many years ago, not when Vander met Vi and Powder, but everything else is perfect.
@@anamilicat6113 The assassination attempt was after Vander picked up the kids... the show runners confirmed that Vander and Silco were both fighting on the same side during that battle. there was a slight miscommunication with the animators about Silco's age during the murder attempt so he looks a bit younger than he should have. They retconned this off screen saying that the toxins effect aged him a bit LOL.
I think everyone's first thought is either:
It's after the battle on the bridge, and Silco wants to keep fighting, but Vander now wants to protect his newly found family.
or:
It's before or after the battle, and Silco wants to do something horrific (poison gas for example) - Vander wants to fight Piltover - but not THAT extreme.
But neither of those make sense to me. For the first option - he wouldn't need to kill Silco, he can just stop fighting.
For the second: In Silco's "drowning" monologue at the start of ep.3 he talks about his transformation. To transform into what he is now, he couldn't have been the same before - he WASN'T at ruthless as he is now, so he wouldn't be suggesting something so ruthless that Vander would kill him over it.
Perhaps it's before the battle and Silco actually wanted to negotiate with Piltover? Perhaps at this time, Vander hates the upper city so much that this is unacceptable to him -we never see signs of Vander having a wife or children or other siblings, perhaps enforcers killed them.
Perhaps it's something else, I'm open to suggestions, I'm not really convinced by Schnee's analysis this time.
Vander tried to kill Silco as his part of the secret agreement with the Enforcers. There now it all makes sense. Vander becomes petty underlord of only the Lanes if he eliminates Silco, and keeps the dirty peasants in line. Of course he failed, but then he follows up by telling the Undercity Silco fled as a coward, by the time Silco healed, the Undercity believed Vander, thus Silco cannot muster another assault against on the bridges. Even Benzo believed Vander, that is why Benzo thought he could scare Silco away with an enforcer's baton in EP3, watch Vander's face, Vander KNOWS Silco is no coward, and Vander KNOWS Silco would only show his face once he became unstoppable. Benzo died because he believed Vander's lies about Silco. Silco wouldn't have killed him, had he not attacked him first... Silco only attacked the Enforcers, he even laments Benzo's stupidity.
@@Hawkido So, Vander led a battle against the enforcers on the bridge per the prologue of ep1, killing several, but walks off a changed man, carrying the children Vi and Powder, and then shortly after comes to an arrangement with Piltover for peace (perhaps Grayson reaches out, wanting to avoid more death). We know Silco wasn't leading the first battle, which is now lost anyway... but he has enough people, support and the will to lead another attack without Vander. Vander can't allow this because it would threaten the safety of his new priority - the children, so tries to kill Silco, possibly after trying and failing to convince him to stop? (or because Piltover required his death as part of the deal)
Hmm, that could work. Benzo's behaviour neatly explained too.
I'll have to think on it.
[edit] - Oh, and I like the duality of Vander saying Silco fled as a coward, and Silco's ep3 plan to say Vander and the children fled as cowards.
@@Hohum37 It may not be perfect, but it is a theory that finally makes each character "work" without that itchy "something isn't right" feeling. Vander wasn't a "changed man" as soon as he walked off the bridge, he was tired of the killing, but what changes him, was after he realized he just deliberately tried to kill someone that everyone looked up to, he internally freaks out, and starts to come up with a lie in case Silco comes back, and then the slow background fear of knowing that this will one day come back to kill him. Silco refers to Benzo as "his (Vander's) accomplice" So Silco was probably told to meet Vander down at the river where Vander tried to kill him. I do not believe Vander told Benzo what he planned, and I am certain that Vander Lied about what actually happened. And Benzo probably corroborated Vander's Lie about Silco being a coward. That would be enough for Silco to feel certain that Benzo was directly part of the Murder attempt. Silco was so well respected that even the Word of just Vander wouldn't be enough to make people turn against him.
@@Hawkido Quibble: Vander definitely is a changed man as soon as he walks off that bridge. He literally throws down his weapons and picks up the children. I think that is an unambiguous narrative statement, and the most important one for his part of the main story. It's a core change in his outlook which defines his actions.
That doesn't stop him doing what you suggest though (it could even be the main thing that motivates them).
@@Hohum37 Perhaps, and I could accept that if it is true, but the idea that he is sick of violence then immediately goes and performs the most dastardly form of betrayal a brother in arms can commit, fratricide. Not because the target was a traitor to the cause, but because the attacker had abandoned the mission, betrayed the cause, and conspired with the enemy to demoralize the Undercity into passivity. If he was sick of the killing, why was his next thought of killing his brother, the change inducing trauma was the realization that he was capable of killing his respected brother who was dedicated to THE cause, THEIR cause. Vander's decision to retire and become a family man Silco said he could accept and even come to understand over time. But the betrayal wasn't necessary, and as I theorized the slander Vander used to make sure Silco could never rally another charge and the defamation by Vander and Benzo that Silco was "the coward" to the entire Undercity, to make them give up, that is a deep form of treason... That I believe is the trauma that broke Vander into changing his life. The realization that Vander was the monster, not Silco. However, in attempting to kill SIlco, Vander turned Silco into a ruthless monster. Silco couldn't abandon the cause, because to do so would be a betrayal, and if you notice, Silco never betrays anyone, even the Undercity who abandons him due to Vander's Lies... Not even Marcus. Marcus was supposed to take Vander's children from him, bringing Vander back into the fight, where upon winning he could get his children back. But Vander swaps places with Vi and that means "the deal's changed". Vander knows he would be forced back into the fight, if they took VI, that is what he means when he tells Greyson "it's the only way." The only way for Vander to not go back on that bridge and this time he wouldn't be able to quit.
To me, Vander goes to great lengths to help secure the people from Zaun, even dealing with Enforcers and being humiliated or disrespected over and over.
Silco wants Zaun to flourish in their hardships and pain, to become what they fear, so they will think it twice before even stepping in Zaun.
Vander priotizes social stability and an humiliating peace ("you're weak" by Sevika) and Silco priotizes his own vision of Zaun, and sees people as a mean to an end.
While some of the Enforcers would try to humiliate Vander and others in Zaun, I don't Grayson was like that. She seems to have honestly respected Vander and was working with him in order to try and cut down the abuses of Enforcers. Of course she could only do so much because of the Piltover's leadership. Things clearly got worse after she died. I wonder if that's what Silco wanted? sm
@@mattwoodard2535 Grayson, to me, seems like a mirror to Vander.
She gets her hands dirty and tries to keep things stable with his help. To Markus, she was lowering herself and almost betraying Piltover's way just to help some Zaunites.
He clearly did not see the big picture.
@@dajim1342 ++
I think that Grayson and Vander had one goal in common: trying to make things better for the people on a day-to-day basis. Sure, the system is fucked, and they both know it. But what is the price of reform? How many innocent lives will be lost in another war between Piltover and Zaun? To the two of them, that price was too high to accept. So even if it meant perpetuating a shitty status quo, they were willing to work together to save lives. I can't fault them for that.
It really is the tale as old as time: "hope vs. fear" and boy did they nail it
Silco said 'for respect' like fOR reSPECT bish
It can also be used in response to @Ivan Hunter
' youtube user comment.
This event tells how it happened before Vander found Powder and Violet.
Even Schnee says this.
Vander was a violent man, and in that bridge scene he was going to fight the upper side with the people of the underground city, probably without thinking of the consequences. (Even if it ends in death) (He just wanted to damage the top side)
(Something he said to Violet in Episode 2) "I know you want to hurt the top", "But who are you ready to lose"
Something Silco says in episode 3: "I don't want to attack them, just scare them" (He doesn't say that exactly, but he explains that he doesn't want to attack)
Silco is not an aggressive person, he just gets things done by talking.
Even Violet tells Silco that in Episode 6 "You talk too much"
I'm pretty sure Silco changed for sure from Vander's memory of strangling Silco.
"The Base Violence Necessary for Change." A word used both for himself (Vander's attempt to kill Silco by strangling) and to scare Piltover. Silco's permanent replacement.
"The only way to defeat a superior enemy is to stop at nothing. To become what they fear."
(Likewise the line caused by Vander and describing Silco's permanent change.), (He will force the upstream to make a deal and will continue to mess with Piltover, just as Vander tries to strangle Silco until he dies. Not in Vander's way)
I think we will see Silco and Vander's relationship from previous years in season 2, and some of my predictions are written below.
v ------ v ------ v
My theory:
Vander and Silco were very young in that flashback, maybe 20 or 25.
Vander was furious and thought the only solution was to attack them, and Silco and Vander were at odds.
Vander had an uncontrollable rage and could no longer stand Silco. Silco, (as Violet says) is constantly talking and may be trying to stop Vander's anger)
We see in episode 3 that Vander is trying to strangle Silco to death, the reason why Silco doesn't want to be with Vander anymore may be that Vander gets more unstable in each case and attacks Silco.
Example:
In the Enemy music video, we can see that Violet cannot control herself and attacks Powder as in episode 3.
Since Vander and Violet have more parallels here, I think it's very possible that Vander doesn't have the same anger management.
When Vander, alone and with the other underground city people, started a riot to "do harm" to the upper side, Silco also stated that he respected that in episode 3.
I think Silco is definitely a harmless, talkative person in his pre-bridge life, trying to stop/dissolve Vander's uncontrollable anger by talking.
I'm sure we'll get returns with Silco in Season 2 with Vander as Warwick, I think something like that will happen.
I think Vander will remember his regrets and memories of using his uncontrollable anger with his fists against the people he loves, something I think we'll see clearly in Season 2.
I think it's a very possible theory.
I would like to hear your thoughts too.
I used a translation application to translate my writing into English.
I corrected the typos I noticed as much as possible.
But it can still happen, handle it.
It reads fine
What about Shimmer? Maybe Silco already knew the Doctor was experimenting with it, because after the incident he must had the treatment for his eye very quickly, otherwise he would be halfblind or more injured. He was sympathizing with it and Vander didn't want that kind of revolution. Vander choosed muscle strengths without doping.(his weapon choice/Fight on bridge without Silco) Easy to choose when you are strong like a bear, Silco and most people are not. I just love that open question, it separates the two and Vander accidently creates the villain, he was so afraid of that he wanted to kill him before it's to late. Or Silco "stole" Vanders girlfriend ;)
This is what I thought about too.
I believe Silco's eye was part of the answer to the Shimmer production issue. Singed was working on making a creature Void infused by feeding it the 'shrooms, but then how to extract the void juice (Shimmer), then Silco gets injured and seeks Singed's help with his eye, and Silco sees that Silco's eye is producing Shimmer and needs to be drained periodically. That isn't a medical injector, it is a spring loaded piercer akin to what a diabetic would use to do blood tests. Silco uses it to pierce the eye to let the excess shimmer out, reducing the pain caused by void corruption induced angle-closure glaucoma.
I'm pretty sure if there was a woman involved, Silco would've kept her picture somewhere in his office like he does with Jinxs stuff.
He's a guarded man capable of some sentimentality.
Silcos charecter development was just great.
Its worth noting that one of the writers confirmed the river scene happened after the opening scene on the bridge, which makes things even more confusing
To be honest, I don't know if we should take what they say seriously UNTIL season 2 actually comes out.
Plus, why would a writer be spoiling the story? 😕
Where? You got a link?
@@shupasopni sent u the link, but youtube doesnt always allow links to be posted so idk if it worked. Lmk
@@RE-dy1cc Naw it didn't.
@@shupasopni darn :/
Love your arcane vids so much, I think I’ve watched all of them! 😂 if you see this I’d love to hear your thoughts: when jinx has kidnapped Violet, she asks .Are we alone?”. Jinx responds “maybe forever”, but she knew she’d set up the rest of the tea party with silco and Caitlin right there. Think there might be something more to that?
Hey in episode 4 while Jinx goes all crazy and kills some firelights, she kills that red haired girl thats lookin like Vi. There’s a red flare used in that scene by the red hair girl to light up the shimmer making it catch fire. And as we know there’s a blue flare used later by jinx to call Vi. Do ya think that it has anything ehh symbolic in it?
interesting, i like it!
So happy to see a new post! I’m on my 7th watch through of Arcane and now I’m thinking about making some analysis/video essays 😂
do it!!
I feel like it would make sense if it were in the space between the bridge and Vander's deal with enforcers, as in, they split ways after the bridge, and Silco still 'had respect for him' until he made a deal. But Vander does look young in the flashback shot that's the only real obstacle.
Yeah, Vander does look young.
While there is a clue or two that point to the drowning incident occuring after the bridge scene, but - to me - there are MORE clues that imply the opposite.
First off, with how *detailed* the artists were with this show, I'm having trouble believing that mistakes could be easily made. Vander looking young has to be on purpose.
Second, in episode 3 Silco says, "... As time passed ... I was left with an understanding ... To become what they fear. (Meanwhile flashback is playing) I hated you but you kept my respect - *until you made peace* with them, played lapdog after everything we suffered." Silco is straight up saying that his experience happened BEFORE Vander decided to submit.
Thirdly, Vander says, "What I did to you, I've never forgiven myself, you were my brother." This implies again that this happened before he changed his ways on the bridge. It makes absolutely no sense for Vander to accept defeat and drop his gauntlets the way we see him do - and THEN start trying to kill again, specifically his brother Silco whom he supposedly loved.
Could you do a video on the crows and their relationship to jinx?
Great video as always! Love your work. I also hope we will get more info on what happened between Vander & Silco in the future. But of course question is if the writers can fit it in and if this info is still relevant now that Silco died. Maybe the scene could be a flashback of Warwick, but I think it would have to serve a purpose. Also, in Season 1 the writers left out a scene between Jinx and Ekko, explaining why Jinx calls him the Boy Savior. And since these characters are still alive and will potentially meet again, that background knowledge would be more important to know I think.
I am from the country that was oppressed for such a long time and the reason why we were oppressed was because my country was full of Vander like people, so I have to say that I agree more with Silco, I dont agree with his methods and how he tries to achieve the nation of Zaun but overall I agree that people should fight back if their government literally poisons them
I feel like it's worth bringing up Silco's conversation he had with his young goon, when he's trying to convince him to take Shimmer (as his test subject), "power doesn't belong to those who were born with it, it belongs to those who would do anything to achieve it."
Or something along those lines.
I think Vander was afraid of Silco's vision, his end goal.
Silco was willing to cross a line Vander would never dream of, potentially fearing that if Silco were left unchecked, he may make matters worse, giving no room for some form of peace between the two nations.
Which is kinda fitting for Jinx's closing arc in part 1, as she's fullfilling Silco's wish, causing collateral damage that will throw the two nations into a state of conflict they may never be able to recover from, finally igniting the civil war that was so heavily foreshadowed/hinted at during Part 1.
I think this may interest you (credits to @AllTheBlueDaddies)
Silco tells Deckard about this lesson he learnt “when I was about your age” that “power comes to those who would do anything to achieve it”
But, Silco did not get power. He got drowned. He got pushed down to his lowest. What he did to Vander on the day of the betrayal (stabbing and slicing him) was simply to free himself. He’s been lurking in the shadows ever since, and though he plans ahead, he has no guarantee that he will succeed, even if he’s now ready to do anything to get there… He has not yet achieved power. Ever actually, as far as we can tell.
So… What if he’s actually talking about Vander?
Probably because Silco wanted Piltover’s respect and was not satisfied with the Lanes’ respect. (As per their dialogue in episode 3). I am envisioning Vander as someone who was much more brutal, much more power driven. Someone who helped Silco craft the Lanes with his charisma but also (mostly) his fists. He was a “Hound”, and as we meet him I feel like we’re blinded by the fact he argues for peace and is a good father figure... But, we meet Vander caving someone’s skull in, and his first dialogue is to threaten two people of death over short changing someone in his pub.
Vander also threatens Marcus explicitly, relying heavily on his reputation with his gauntlets. His reputation as a killer. He’s not some benevolent ruler, and he doesn’t exactly take feedback either. Sevika leaves after he refuses to yield. Sure we don’t want him to sacrifice the kids either but… it’s just a strong representation of his word being as good as the law, and that being backed by his reputation as a dangerous man.
SO!! What if Vander did “anything to achieve power” :
Drowning his beloved brother - and… yeah, it worked.
Silco was pushed to the shadows, and Vander achieved total domination of the Lanes.
This makes for a more linear progression of his character, and a simpler explanation over all. Nothing dire needs to have happened. They reached a point where leadership could be seized. Vander took it. Maybe Silco said something to enrage him, or resisted being “demoted” and things escalated. It’s very easy to imagine young Vander having little control over his anger issues.
At this point we can say that Vander was not the man we met in the series, he was someone brutal, and Silco is the product of this brutality, he is like a kind of karma that reminds Vander of the monster he was before.
Id love a prequal season, with vander and silco, maybe have Camille as one of the main antagonists
I agree with Vander's way on handling thingsbut unfortunately in Arcane, the zaunitea are heavily discriminated so the only way for them to get 'ahead' is through fear and intimidation. Hence making Silco's approach viable but such Oppression and Intimidation from Zaun's side will eventually lead to more violence and War.
Vander saw that before.
His only flaw in his reign over the Lanes which got him 'overthrown' was that he did not deliver much to the Lanes' people - He was pretty much a lap dog to the Piltover cops, with no development for Zaunites (Economically) except for stagnation and with the hatred brewing in Zaun, Vander's downfall was kind of Inevitable.
Respect goes both ways Silco. Vander knew that
Mr.Schnee I NEED to know your thoughts on the "Terrorism is a Poor Man's War" video by Hashinshin
Regarding Vander, he should’ve been loyal to the dream not just Silco. He was a muscle man who should’ve remained the muscle, he should’ve been the one to ground Silco mentally, intellectually, and spiritually. Instead he tried to kill him because he feared the mind of what his friends was capable of.
I disagree entirely? First Silco never says anything about destroying Piltover. He wants separation a d independence fro. Piltover's oppression.
Second, Vander is show and implied to have been extremely violent and riotous and Only the tragedy of the Bridge changed that.
Third, Silco says many tines that he Learned to be cruel and violent From Cancer's betrayal.
Forth! Vander gave up on Zaun after the bridge. His dirty deals with the Piltover enforcers keep Only His groups stable, and do Nothing to help them rise above impoverishment. As nice a guy he became, he represents Stability Through Stagnation.
So! Taking ALL of this into account. I think Silco's way was at the least, Less violent than Vander's. I would stretch as far as to say he probably tried to take a diplomatic path. Which may have enraged Vander. After all trying to bridge the divide through mutual respect is the last thing pretty bridge Vander would want.
His betrayal was violent, cruel and merciless. His attempt at an uprising Direct and amounted to nothing but a short blood riot.
What Silco took from all this is to be Merciless. Violent. But Smart and Indirect. He was right too, since that is what Finally gets results. But I doubt it would have truly worked without Jayce, since Jayce understanding what the 'under city' is willing to sacrifice for their Freedom, and the cost of what using Piltover's might to oppress the impoverished again, is what made him reach out for a truce.
This scene actually happened after the opening Bridge scene, so after Vander has decided to stop fighting, and after he took Vi and Powder in 🙃✌
Said thing about betrayal it never comes from an enemy. But what did silco do to cause Vander to betray him?
Vander wanted peace
Silco wanted violence.
I wonder for example….
Why is Vander clean shaven in the flashback with Silco?
Could it perhaps be because he cleaned himself up to meet with Piltover authorities to agree on peace terms, hence his preexisting agreement with Grayson contingent on a Zaunite ban in Piltover? After which he got into a violent fight with Silco over standing down that ended with Vander trying to drown him. And it was in the lake because Vander had arranged the meeting in a secluded spot.
I always wondered that part. The bridge scene with vi and powder was clearly near the end of the war. Part it's implied that Silco was part of the uprising, so the falling out had to be after. So it must be as you said, he shaved before making a peace deal and Silco wasn't about it, so Vander tried to deal with him.
Jon M. Lutes
10 days ago (düzenlendi)
The drowning scene happened before the day of Ash and silco became who he was later because of what vander did to him and he modeled his entire philosophies later in life on how Vander was prior.
When silco says to jinx, Vander is not the man you thought he was there's a reason for this.
Vander was a far more brutal man than silco was before they had their fight in the water.
Also remember when benzo tried to step up and wanted to fight silco? The first thing silko says back to him is: "you never did know when to walk away"
This is actually more of a clue at showing that silco was more likely to be the one that didn't want to resort to violence before he fought Vander in the water.
It's the only thing that makes sense. Silco was not the person he later was before their fight.
What they're discussing in episode 3 when Vander is handcuffed doesn't have anything to do with that because it doesn't make any narrative sense.
idk i feel like this was after the bridge scene cause the bridge scene is where Vander realizes attacking them doesnt work, so he was doing this to protect the kids from what he knew Silco could do. (i may have misunderstood someone somewhere tho)
I love your take on it, so I decided to share my theory on this dilemma as well.
From what we have seen of Vander, even before he gave up fighting, he doesn't seem (at least in my opinion) to be the kind of person that would kill willy-nilly, kill for a reason, sure, but not without, and certainly not close friends or family like Silco was at the time. So I believe that for Vander to try to kill him, Silco had to betray the thing that Vander holds dear, family. He in some way sacrificed the live or lives of someone close to Vander or them both for the sake of the higher cause. It could be that he given in Zaunites to the police, lead people into a dangerous situation knowing not all would return alive, or just did a hit on someone that he shouldn't have, you can come up with more, but they would have to be at best people that Vander was aware of or aquatinted with, at worst close family or friends.
Anyway that's my take. 😁
Here's a counter theory. If that was the case why would Vander regrett his actions?
@@arawn1061 I think because he stooped to Silco's level, and betrayed his family. He might have hated him for what he did, but he still regretted trying to kill the person he called his brother
@@ameliabooth9783 i mean i disagree but fair enough
I’m on vander side for sure I mean if I have to pick between I mean if I have to choose between Batman or Superman from injustice I would definitely choose Superman but Vander’s right sometimes violence doesn’t help anything at all
WRONG, Vander does not wear his armband in the bridge scene, the fight must have taken place after (where Silco stabs him in the arm, from then on he wears the armband).
I just re-watched the bridge scene in ep1, and I don't see a shot where it's possible to categorically tell that Vander doesn't have the brace on his right arm
@@Hohum37 00:02:02 of ep1 clearly shows it's not there when compared to shots where he does have it on, it goes high up near his elbow.
@@billgrant7262 Yes, I think you're correct, it would have been visible. It's possible he didn't wear it when he had the irons on if it interfered with the fit, but that would be an unusual narrative choice.
@@Hohum37 It could be a technicality like that, and we're supposed to deduce from their young appearance in the fight that the fight takes place before. Then again it could also be intentional. The fight happening after the bridge makes for a simpler explanation, Vander renounces violence and this creates the conflict with Silco.
But what if he started wearing it AFTER the bridge scene? Like to further distance himself from his past
Oooh might be able to weigh in on this - when I met Jason Spisak, I actually asked him what the betrayal was over. And he summed it up by saying that Silco's methods were too extreme and that Vander tried to kill Silco because he thought the price of the revolution would be too high.
But ... That doesn't make sense, this completely invalidates what Silco established from his drowning experience. How could he have had extreme methods be the cause when the whole point of his near-death experience was that he learns to be extreme??
Idk, I have a feeling that the cast and crew are "under lock" about their future episodes, and if a fan asks about them they gotta lie.
I mostly agree with Vander but at the same time would they have ever fixed the undercity his way? It's just a dumping ground would that really have changed without taking some kind of action
Schnee I know this is one of your oldest videos at this point but PLEASSSSE I HAVE SOME SERIOUSLY HIGH PRIORITY SHOWS & THINGS FOR ANALYSIS,
(SERIOUSLY YOU WILL LOVE THESE THINGS AND YOU CAN GO JUST AS IN DEPTH ABOUT THESE AS YOU HAVE ABOUT ACROSS THE SPIDER-VERSE AND ARCANE) :
1. Andor
2. Pantheon
(that's an adult animation that got canceled by AMC but I think with enough popularity we could either bring it back or with time amc might just forget to redo the rights though the way i said that may make it sound like it's impossible to watch this show to which i say "i have no idea!")
but I think a better chance with most episodes (some more surface level seeming at first that others)
3. Star Wars: The Bad Batch
I think I'd prefer Analysis videos to be in series for one season at a time because later season/episode stuff recontextualizes old stuff (as to be expected but if it's like you watch the whole thing at once you might miss some good theories or how one character was written differently for different seasons etc)
Lastly I'd say these kind of blend together for me?
4. Tales of the Jedi
(different videos for different episodes or different character arcs is fine and with Tales of the Jedi the episodes may be short and few but really feel like there's some deeper things going on here,
like "that's how this other (star wars) thing should've been written" or "wow that changed the whole ______'s ____."
5. Ashoka
that's on Disney + and I have no doubt you've heard about it but my call to action here with most of these star wars things is for you to really deeply analyze the morality of the Jedi, both of the order and alot of key Jedi characters and their different approaches to being Jedi which by extention could be seen as kind of super heroes or guardians? kind of🤷♀️)
With Andor: star wars finally goes deep into the deep complex morality of being a person on whatever side of the oppressing times of the Empire,
what are you willing to give up?
what are you willing to lose?
Who?
What are you willing to do?
What are the necessary costs?
how do everyday people get caught in the violence of this oppression and rebellion?
What motivates the bad guys?
to their perspectives are they just ordinary people?
And excuse my language schnee I'm just gonna mention the actors real quick:
GENEVIEVE O'REILLY ABSOLUTELY NAILED IT IN ACTING!
SHE KNOCKED IT OF THE PLANET!
(and so did Stellan Skargård but i think half the credit of his best moment was that killer speech that just bathed in moral complexity)
Does their personal conflict matter? The struggle of Zaun and Piltover is the struggle of the industrial district against the power of the trade. And in this situation, Vander is a dead man. He is a peace advocate, in an area where an active majority wants to fight. And he has a personal line of communication with the police. He has only one option - death.
To the storytelling in season 1? Not directly.. It's likely to have already been decided by the writers though, because the level of attention to detail that they have provided so far has been rather deep, and they seem to pride themselves on consistency.
"Violence frees the native from his inferiority complex and from his despair & inaction. It makes him fearless & restores his self-respect."- Frantz Fanon
When Amanda Overton was asked on Twitter whether Vander betraying Silco happened before or after picking up Vi and Powder she responds:
“After. Seeing the sisters on the bridge that day was a big turning point for him”
I would take what she says sometimes with a grain of salt because a lot of the things she says don't line up with what the show actually shows and tells us.
The drowning scene happened before the day of Ash and silko became who he was later because of what vendor did to him and he modeled his entire philosophies later in life on how Vander was.
When silko says to jinx, Vander is not the man you thought he was there's a reason for this.
Vander was a far more brutal man than silco was before they had their fight in the water.
But I do agree that it was still a big turning point for him, it just has no relation to why him and so go split because that happened before the scene on the bridge
@@DMrKunst2 Wow, you are the first person Ive seen who's NOT taking what Overton says seriously. Cause I agree, a lot of what she says sometimes doesn't line up with story.
i think something to consider here is that vander has probably always had some small level of respect, being as simultaneously built and intelligent as he is. for silco it was probably much harder for him to gain respect, being as scrawny as he was. thus, he felt the need to deploy other measures to gain it.
I think it might be overanalyzing it a bit. Clearly there was disagreement between them on how to fight topside. Hence trying to kill Silco. But Vander still had Silco's respect as long as he still fought piltover.
The only prerequisite for this theory, is that Silco had some ideas that were too much for Vander
Seeing as he is buddy buddy with singed and how the story plays out, I am thinking there was plenty one could disagree with him on even in the past.
What Silco thinks is respect is really getting people to fear you. It's the mindset of a mobster. Of course Silco is a mobster and you can see what happens to Zaun as a result. It may have more money, but only for Silco's people. Everyone else is at best left behind, worst crushed down in ways much worse than before. Did Vander really betray Silco, or was Vander trying to stop Silco from doing something really that would have made things worse? smsm
Wasnt the betrayal after vander went across the bridge and adopted 2 orphans? Thats why the scene with Silco forgiving Vander makes sense
Are they making the second season the backstory of Silco and Vander?
I think that'd be cool
I doubt it, but if one of the leading fan theories is correct, you may get some further insight into it. The second season is pretty much confirmed to be a direct continuation. Personally I think k that Viktor and Jayce will have a bit more of a central focus in season 2, but I could be wrong.
The story is a continuation, BUT I seriously hope that we see flashbacks to Vander and Silco's past somehow and get an explanation
Crows... Mhmm. Who's the only person in league that has anything to do with crows and is a leader of the only other faction we see in arcane?
That's right, I'm predicting Swain is gonna be the bad guy in season two. Warwick and Jinx too obviously, but Swain is gonna be THE bad guy. Why else would Jinx just randomly kill a crow? I see zero flaws in her character that would suggest otherwise... not a single, slightly insane, reason.
It can ever happen that Vander dissuades him when he comes to speak terms about what he has done with Vi and Powder’s family and of course Silco’s poignant really matters is because of his useless underhanded intentional to agree with anyone. I don’t even grow up as an adult in my life.
Thank you!!
My two cents; we see Silco building a drug empire, in however many years Vi was in Stillwater, he’s pretty much elevated the chembarons to de facto economic rulers. He has access to people in Topside, he has massive wealth, and he can organise a real fighting force when he needs it. So why did he never openly move against Piltover? Because he didn’t actually care about the revolution or independence, only his position and power. I’ve always thought that was the reason for the fight; Vander realised where Silco’s ambitions really lay, and became scared by it.
@For Eternity, with a pineapple
slico good just be building up the undercity so that it can fight pitover if need be , and can exist without it as well.
Good video👍👍
I'm gonna say the betrayal happened after the bridge scene because it just makes more sense for the story. So I think what happened was Vander sees what happened when they fight back from the bridge incident then takes in vi and powder then talks to silco about not fighting back anymore and they get into a fight about different ideals and vander thinks it's necessary to get rid of silco. The only thing that doesn't fit is that they look younger during the drowning scene, I'm just gonna say it's a animation mistake. Now it could be that the fight they had, has nothing to do with differing ideals and was about something else entirely and was before the bridge incident but unless more stuff about it is shown or told I'm gonna assume it was about differing ideals that arose after the bridge incident.
Ngl, obviously some of his methods are fucked up but Silcos motivations and demands make a lot of sense and I would probably follow him 😅 Vander is a more likeable person but hes half arsing the situation. He's preserving the status quo rather than taking risks in order to strive for dignity and equality. It's obvious the people in the city just don't see the undercity people as worth anything and nothing will change that except a big shock to the system
silco was in the right
Vander betray Silco the moment he told him he was a Furry.
funny how you whistle while pronouncing a word almost at the end
I that you get to the philosophical root of the issue since we can't know the specifics uless the creators decide to speak on it. If anyone's looking for a more detailed but headcanon-y take + some nice artwork, there's this Italian (w/ English subs) vid: ruclips.net/video/1btL1NC-0Lo/видео.html
I read somewhere that their appearence in the flashback is an animation error and it actually happened after the bridge scene. Idk if that's true tho.
Considering how crazy detail and care the animators had with this show, I doubt it. Im more inclined to believe that to prevent spoilers, whenever fans ask questions, the cast and crew MUST lie.
The drowning scene definitely happens after he finds powder and vi, probably within days or weeks silco probably wanted to attack the bridge again as revenge for the people who died and Vander obviously hated the idea, things escalated and we know the outcome.
While they do look younger, Beards grow and can be shaved off. I know this is non standard in character design could have happened after the failed uprising on the bridge. Though philosophy wise oppression begets disrespect. Disrespect is just the psychological too that allows for continued oppression. Silco had the right target but wrong philosophy. As for Vander working with ones oppressor always put the oppressed in a no win situation, which in the first arc Vander found himself in.
"Violence frees the native from his inferiority complex and from his despair & inaction. It makes him fearless & restores his self-respect."- Frantz Fanon
@@HxH2011DRA If the writers are using Fanon's ideas Jinx holds true to thees words over Silco. From her Tet offensive style robbery on progress day to her assault on the bridge. Compared to arc 2 and 3 Silco who is more about Managing the under-city and or killing Vi.
@@I.Simmonds I agree, think Silco realized this
Theyre both wrong but honestly silco was more correct vander was just straight up visably wrong
Jesus bless
All this talk about oprotunity and respect yet none of them even tried to foster the future of Zaun by building a school. smh
Might be a joke comment but it's an insanely good point.
@@Addam_ Thanks my guy. The logical conclusion as to why they dind't do it comes down to how Zaun and piltover align themselves. Zaun in essence wont want to become like piltover because of the abuse suffered. Culturally they saw the abuse as piltover, and by proxy they denied everything it stood for, including the Academy. So the choice to not build a school is a denial of values of north side.
@@BEETSSOLO The Academy could be seen as the cornerstone, the very essence of Piltover. The constant desire for progress drives the need for more and better inventions which in-turn drives up the wealth of Piltover, further widening the gap between the two cities and as an added side effect probably increases the pollution that gets dumped into the trenches. So like you said it makes sense why they would reject the very idea of something like that.
@@Addam_ Its sad to think about but the question is when someone will realize that opportunity doesn't equal respect. But rather effort.
200 comment 🎉
the Wander vs. Silco (or Piltover vs. Zaun) is just badly written compared to the girls' story, Wander's plan (the bridge fight in the beginning of the series) makes no sense whatsoever, maybe the writers understand drama on a personal level but they have no clue how society works, the Nation of Zaun or independence from Piltover makes zero sense there is not a single argument why would it be good for Zaun (in fact what we see in the show it would be terrible for everybody but Silco himself), not a single one, instead of demanding better wealth distribution better education etc. from Piltover's money
maybe the writers had better ideas but they have to cut out due to time constraints but the whole Piltover vs Zaun theme is the weakest part of the show by a longshot and because of that Wander vs Silco value differences and how they wanted to slove the problem are also poorly written and vague, it maybe works on emotional level but smart rational people immediately see the inconsistencies
Based on what you have written here it can be fairly easy to infere that you are a smart and rational person.
To me it's the opposite, their arc is better written than the sisters'. Y'know, at least the betrayal Silco is accusing Vander of actually happened, meanwhile Vi did little to nothing wrong so jinx's accusations feel empty.