PSM Shooting: 5.45x18mm vs 7.62x25mm on Soft Armor
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Following up on yesterday's history and disassembly of the PSM, today we are taking it out to the range for some shooting. In addition, wehave some generic Level IIIA soft body armor to test. We will see if the vaunted PSM can do better than the 7.62x25mm Tokarev - another Soviet handgun widely regarded as being excellent at soft armor penetration.
Thanks to Mike Carrick of Arms Heritage magazine for providing the PSM and its ammunition for this video! See his regular column here: armsheritagema...
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Whenever Ian yells something before unloading, there's always trouble. Last time it was when he yelled "Disperse in the name of the United Fruit Company!"
It's in the "Thompson Riot Ammo" video, I think.
Nukleon And that's why I love Karl and Ian! :D
Which got an instant grin out of me. And yea it's the riot ammo video.
Yeah, that's a classic! So dark - and so sadly true.
Btw, check out Pablo Neruda's poem *United Fruit Co.*, if you're not familir with it.
I'm a Polish cop, when I used to do patrol duty, we were getting level III A Dyneema vests with additional - also soft, slightly smaller than SAPI plates - panels in front and back specifically rated for stopping 7.62x25mm from a TT. The rest of the surface of vest was not expected to stop Tokarevs.
I thought the US was the only country in the world where cops had to face gunfire!
We don't have too much of those, but had a few casualties in recent years.
Up until like three years ago it's been quite uncommon for patrolmen to wear ballistic protection even when issued, after a bad streak it became more prominent.
@@MrTruckerf of course not. The US doesn’t even have the homicide rate of Greenland. The US just has more gang violence. Even mass shootings are way worse in Europe because the shooter is unopposed
hi, thx for comment, do they also learn you to wear ballistic inserts with white label in body direction, not fire... in opposite than the psm test video?
Ian confirmed as a KGB agent.
No comrade FSB is for in country security and such. For other countries it is either the SVR or the GRU.
Он настоящий майор КГБ под прикрытием.
PatMac is coming for him now
tovarich vrach akul, da?
Does this mean that GunGod is Lenin?
The CIA thing reminded me of when Ian showed off the riot ammo, "Disperse in the name of the United Fruit Company!"
"Die CIA pig!" - GunJesus, 2017
BUBBLEGUM GUN HAT SUB!
Shit... this isn't Reddit.
Gun Jesus wins you the internets today sir.
I think the cia pig got him first
Had to replay/click pause as I was laughing to hard at that segment. :D
The God has spoken! Dismantle the CIA!
The Tokarev managed to penetrate the body armour without having to say 'die cia pig'- which I was expecting to be essential
tokarev was produced before the cia was founded therefore you dont have to say "die cia pig" to get the full penetration capabilities, a simple "URRRRAAAAAA" or "DIE SUKA DIE" generally works for me.
Let's remind people that a 3A stops .44 magnum and also stops most 12 ga (even if it's not survivable).
Defeating a 3A is not simple and the fact that a .22lr "like" round does it is quite a feat.
A lot of modern 3A have "special menace protection" wich means they have an additional layer to protect from 7.62x25, psm, 5.7 herstal and 4.6 HK (all from a pistol, not a rifle).
I love the Tokarev round. I have a 5.13" Tokarev conversion barrel in my 1911 38 Super: 8+1 (using flat follower mags). 1750-1790fps. It's a monster of a round.
Ordered the PPS43C myself!
Is it hard to make it run or do
The PSM is such a cutie!
"pok pok pok pok"
*Happily penetrates your body armor*
Ouch ouch ouch ouch.
Do you want a poke?
In Fast & Furious 6, the PSM is described as the only gun to fire the 5.45x18mm cartridge. That's incorrect. The OTs-23 Drotik machine pistol also fires it, which is a more practical platform for the cartridge if you're trying to get through armor.
So does the OTs-21 Malysh semiautomatic pistol which makes the PSM seem huge by comparison.
A 5.45x18mm cartridge is also used in the Margolin pistol(version of "Drill). You could see it in the hands of Princess Leia.
That's the sort of idiocy that happens if you rely on firearms information from a movie or a video game..
There is also a very rare KTS walther ppk in this caliber
5.45Х18 cartridge lost most of its already diminutive energy quite quickly as distance increased. This made the completion for the OTs-23 “Drotik” automatic pistol (5.45x18mm three-round burst with 1800 rounds per minute).
"Die CIA pig!"
Channeling some Terry A. Davis there, Ian?
I hoped to find a comment like this.
GLOW IN THE DARK CIA NI-
"Not Today CIA!" Ian from Forgotten Weapons.
So we meet again
Whom are you?
Американцы обожают всякие ништяки с советской символикой. Отец когда подарил коллеге из штатов ментовскую фуражку, тот очень ей обрадовался) "Оу! Кей Джи Би!" При чем тут Кей-Джи-Би, не знаю, но у них эту штуку оценили. Он ему ковбойскую шляпу потом прислал)
Incorrect use of 'whom' makes you look very pompous.
Vladimir Lenin hey Vladimir!
About that similarity to the Kel-Tec. Combined with the fact that a .25 ACP version of the PSM was rejected for import? That just goes to show the real purpose of the import rules of the 1968 Gun Control Act was just to protect domestic gun-makers from foreign competition. Probably that's why the American gun industry didn't lobby against the law at the time it was passed.
Also why you can't get cheap norinco guns
That was Clinton
@Paul Horn now a days anyone can get a level 3a body armor shipped to their door without an ffl all they need is a drivers license. if im ever in mass shooter situation where the dude wont back down till he is dead I hope the good guy with a gun (either a cop or a ccl holding citizen) either has the aim to shoot for the head, like in the texas church shooter who had level 3a body armor on, or a round powerful enough to go through it
That's why the domestic gun industry doesn't strenuously oppose import bans. But although they may have an incentive, I haven't seen any evidence of them supporting firearm import bans. I'd have to call it a conspiracy theory. In modern times they also have an incentive to oppose all gun control, since their customers will be upset with them if they support any gun control bill, such as import bans. The main reason we have import bans, the driving force, is so that anti-gun politicians can tell their constituents "I banned the import of assault weapons", even though functionally identical weapons are manufactured domestically for commercial sale and the van doesn't affect the availability of such weapons on the market. I've heard enough Democrats brag about banning the import of "weapons of war" to know that this stupidity is the primary reason we have such bans. Anti-gun people know that the import bans don't really do anything, but they support them anyway since they never met a gun ban they didn't like and are happy to upset the gun-buying public and force prices higher so that fewer people can afford to shoot.
I'm sure American ammo manufacturers wouldn't be thrilled about cheap Chinese slave labor ammo flooding the market, but they survived back in the day when cheap mil-surp ammo was widely available. Demand for American ammo will persist (we make superior ammo), as will demand for American firearms to shoot the cheap foreign ammo in (we also make superior firearms). Overall, I believe the repeal of import bans would be a great benefit to the domestic firearms industry. Foreign competition in some sectors would shake up the market, but it would make shooting more affordable and interesting and increase sales overall. It would especially help attract more people to shooting hobbies and sports.
@Paul Horn I too will iterate
Not everyone wearing a vest is a good guy.
Armored Criminals and Corrupt Cops are very real threats if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time
AP handgun ammo SHOULD be available to the common man
there are 5 CIA agents watching this clip now.
The NSA says, "7 CIA agents are watching."
six
Google audio recognition bots alerted them momentarily
These are great videos F.W!, I tried out my 7.62x25 on a ballistic trauma insert, but never came a cross the PSM 5.45x18. what a great "little" gun. Thanks for posting, love these,you guys are a wealth of information.
That little round matches the 22 LR fired from a rifle barrel...which out of that itty-bitty little gun is pretty decent. 22 LR out of similar length barrel would likely be in the 800-900 fps at most so the Russians have upped the ante quite a bit there. Add in the FMJ with hard pointy end and ZIP....right through the soft armor. Those clever Russians!;)
Recoil Rob have you never heard of .22TCM?
...sure...
Try to penetrate a vest with .22 LR, asshole.
It´s incredible the NONSENSE that one has to read in these forums.
@@miguelburgueno4891 He never said a 22lr could go through body armor.
What a horrible surname you have.
@@ferna2294 Well, tell me about WHAT this guy was writing... ...BTW, what "sort of name" is yours, idiot..?
@@miguelburgueno4891 He's saying that the 5.45 out of a tiny pistol is performing as well velocity wise as a 22 out of a rifle, which is impressive. He said nothing about penetration.
You could fit a lot of those 5.45x18mm bullets in a full frame double stack pistol, or an SMG with a helical magazine. With a bottleneck it should have more velocity in longer barrels also.
I was thinking that. Something like a Glock 17 size in this caliber.
A chrono reading would be nice. The info I have found online gives a 40 grain bullet at 1000 fps. That is simply a FMJ .22 LR. I can get 1000 fps out of a 3.5" barrel with several .22 LR brands.
I'd love to see how .30 Mauser does since that's the ancestor of 7.62 Tokarev and was famed for being a very stout cartridge to the point that I believe the C96 was for a long time the most powerful semiautomatic pistol on the market (We won't count the Mars pistol as they were never offered for regular sale).
Correct me if I am wrong, but the PSM was issued to very senior officers in the Red Army, and often presented in lovely wood cases with tools and magazines, with superior finish and sometimes tasteful engraving. I would love to see one of those....
Not exactly. The officers accompanying the senior officers could take the gun. It is very convenient in everyday use. Does not spoil clothes and does not burden with its weight.
Thank you for your work. You bring it to the point in every video you make what I find interesting in weapons. The technical aspects in context to the spirit of it's time, the description of it's own peculiarities which you will only get from the owner of those things I guess...short, you deliver the full view, almost I made the experience myself. And your natural, factual way helps a lot to enjoy your knowledge. May never ends the discover of forgotten weapons.
actually i didnt believe that 5.45 would do it.. but it did.. that was awsome..
i wd love to see that act on ballistic gel.. how it performs on tissue..
nice video Ian
I was wondering what post penetration effect on a body would be. Wouldn't shock me if it pierced armor but was creating marginal wounds.
« Hi, I'm *Ivan McCallum* and today we shoot a CIA pig » 😂
Hey Ian - have you ever had a chance to fire a Stechkin automatic pistol (APS) and if you have access to one can you maybe do a video on that pistol?
+Armageddon2077 Not yet, but I would like to!
awesome channel, ian. thanks!
I'm actually from the future, and he just has! Go check it out!
Wait. I'm from February '19, Ian dual-wielded them in January '19, so a month ago. Your comment was posted 4 months ago. WHAT IS YOUR MAGIC?
@@flowerpetalpetrolfire EXPLAIN YOURSELF TIME TRAVELLER
When he said "Die, CIA pig!" I really felt that :')
great info!
While they preformed the same through the armor, I would imagine the 7.62x25 would have a significantly better terminal effect on the other side, but that is still fairly impressive.
More armor penetrating Soviet pistols? Will you make a video on Gsh-18?
0:39 I love how much your highspeed camera-work has improved since you started this channel oh so many years ago.
keep up the great work
I just love watching guns cycle in slowmo
Funding for a slow mo camera is needed
J Quinones he has one. You mean a better one.
A level 3 book would have been a better target
Feesh Garrysmod Tolstoy or Dostoyevski?
@@heathcliffe8446 war and peace
@@bsuper63 Anyone who has ever had the pleasure of reading the unabridged, unedited version of The Count of Monte Cristo knows that it clocks in at at least level 5. You could build a bomb shelter out of them. Not a criticism of the novel. It's easily worth every single ounce.
I truly shudder to think how much all the 5.45 cost that you shot! Neat pistol and neat demo. Thank you
both are great armor piercer =) but I think we all knew that. It's no 5.7 but lovely nevertheless. Great video, thank you very much, Ian!
I just got myself Zastava M57 tokarev :) its +1 round in magazine and plus some to the lenght of grip (for my large hands its better) and tokarev ammo is soooo powerful
I would love to have one of these in .22 or .25, damn you ATF!
Wouldn't it be nice to reproduce copies of these but in appropriate caliber and on US soil?
@@OlderSpud It would make a nice little .380
I really like your channel and I have liked everything I have watched from you. I am very impressed with your level of knowledge about firearms and their place in history. You have taught me quite a bit. Maybe someday, I might even get to meet you.
Doubtful.
Excellent shooting demo! :)
Love my Tokarev. When I first bought mine I heard rumors of how it was basically a "Poor man's five seven" and later got to see all of those wonderful examples like this showing the crazy damage it does.
2:25 I would have really liked it to see him use those steel-tipped bullets for the PSM that he was talking about in the video he made on the PSM, cuz it probably wouldn't have been a whole lot different when I would like to see how much better it would have been at penetrating is in the regular FMJ round🤷♂️🤷♂️👍🏼👍🏼
Great video, as always.
Me: blow my mind
Ian: Tokarev has same penetrating power as psm
I saw this the other way around. "yeah, I've seen the tokarev poke through armor. But that 7N7 round is just a pointy 22LR" .
Then my mind was blown.
@@Bearthedancingman but with more pen than a. 357
Great video man , keep up the great work
Great video! Have three Tokarevs and one CZ-52, all in 7.62 x 25mm Tok:)-John in Texas
2:25 LOL I like your style Ian!!! Respect
They also made pretty interesting looking leather shoulder rig for this. I remember reading of PSM in some Finnish gun magazine years ago. Somehow I would like to have one, but this is considered a pocket pistol , which is legally difficult to get permit for.
I really like how he takes out the pistols from his pockets :D
"Die CIA pig!"
Well those are words I never thought I would hear uttered by Ian on FW, yet here we are lol.
Thanks for the TT-33 comparison!
Ian, thank you so much for this video! I have not seen a PSM for over 20 years. Could you please comment what specific ammo was used in the TT? To confirm whether it was made for the handgun or submachine gun would be great.
Ian may i suggest for guns like this and the Walther PP and the Makarov PM to use the "Cup and Saucer" grip instead of Thumbs forward because they dont have a dust cover ( because the recoil spring slides on the barrel ) and recoil is mild so using this antiquated technique is just fine for follow up shots
Thanks Ian!
sooo why is Mike so special. I want one BATFE.
I dream about 7.62x25 Tokarev with PSM bullet design and I'm glad that you used surplus from my country.
It would be very cool if Ian could evaluate a real 'assassin pistol', the 2 barreled ones the Soviets made, with the cartridge that contained the gasses and expelled the bullet silently. I think commander Eden Pastora was assinated with one back in the 80's.
silent pistol "Thunderstorm S 4 M" under the cartridge "Snake"
I wish I could have the psm
Along with velocity it's the Spitzer bullets that allow the 5.45x18mm to penetrate the level IIIA soft body armor.
Awesome review, really interesting small handgun.
2:24 my sides... xD
Thanks for another great video, Gun Jesus!
22tcm reminds me of this 5.45x18 round
Note the closeup slow-mo video footage, the pistol is being shot with a right-handed shooter, yet Ian is a lefty.
Liberty Civil Defense ammo and Fort Scott Fort Defense ammo also defeat level IIIA body armor.
Assassin pistol is a city legend, although it did get some mentions in gang killings back in 1990s Russia. No Kevlar vests were available then. Other than that it's almost exclusively mentioned in the news when some military high ranking officer commits suicide.
Surprised it penetrates lvl 3 so easily. Always thought it was pretty effective against most pistols especially something short barreled and pocket-able like that PSM.
I think that little PSM looks cool as fuck
Interesting.
Thanks for this.
☮
I love your videos man
I love it PS M and 7.62\25 good video and and I didn’t know anything about penetration of Chechen gun
I just love your videos. Really informative and highly interesting. Thank you so much.
good timing
To be fair I see a significant penetration difference in 7.62X25 between my lead core Polish and the few Czech steel core rounds that I have.Fired from a CZ52.
Czech steel core is harder and faster so it works better.
very nice penetration video psm Vs 7.62×25 tokerav. I think s&b 7.62fmj ammunations is the most powerful tokerav ammo.
But will a book stop this bullet...
I don't know, lets try it. We need a volunteer.
Please don't. One idiot dead is more than enough...
alfaradiation I volunteer! but you will need to use a 120mm cannon to shoot me. I bet my book will stop the bullet
What´s a book? Is it like an ipad, except more stupid? Never mind, I´m so into this VR thing now, everything else is worthless.
@@YoungBrave2006 It's a type of early composite armor.
wish this round took off in the US. looks like a lot of fun. I feel the same about .25acp and 32acp though, just plain fun
Interesting gun, Interesting Cartridge, Interesting video, Interesting results. Keep up the great work!!!!
To see the real potential of the PSM/ or Baikal IZH 75 (the current civil production model), you must use the original military 5.45x18 ammunitions, and shoot with the pistol at 100 yards into the kevlar vest...that's can be incredible! (I remember an old test from a gun magazine)
were all on a list now
All your videos are very good and informative.
They are coming. Make a video on them and definitely make a video on the Pakistani Tees Bore AK sheep gun and tell how the gun is self-defense and home use. Please.
I will always wish for modern development or the 7.62x25mm round and handgun. It's a beautiful invention and one I think could be made even better with modern machining.
Something that doesnt cost a bajillion dollars like the new 7.5 bkrno or however it's spelled.
I guess i should look at 7.62x25 vs 10mm vs 357 sig?
Love it! Outside of Russia or Russian speaking channels, you don't see many PSM reviews. Cool little pistol. Id love to get my hands on one of the originals with the aluminum grip panels.
When a slightly more powerful .22 penetrates a vest, I think a **7.62 Tokarev** will mess up the vest pretty well.
Here's something else... The chief of duty unit at our police precinct was armed with PSM, then only police chiefs and department heads were armed with them. So, this officer shot at the criminal and thought he had missed. He was running away. And ran after hitting another 150 meters.. After he died. The bullet grazed the heart. changed direction and got into the liver. It has no stopping action. It is designed to kill the one in front of you in a vest.
The PSM was designed for steel conical core bullets. These are stated to be capable of penetrating more than 45 layers of Kevlar
PSM was a nice concept. I would love to have something a bit nicer in that caliber, like a Makarov, or maybe even a Bersa Thunder chambered for it. Im sure someone could take a Bersa and add a sleeve in the barrel and cut the chamber.
Wouldn't mind having one of these. Finding ammo would be a problem.
Listen kids, there are three things in life that kills; velocity(forward and reverse), mass(more and less) these two are always connected and cannot be disconnected. The third is mass+velocity. A good example would be your mother-in-law.
ba da boom :)
Mass x velocity
@@agrizic Energy = Mass x Velocity x Velocity
Increasing velocity is much more important because it is squared.
Momentum=Mass x velocity
And let's not forget Isaac Newton's Golden Rule of
F=M×A
For good armor piercing effect you need either PYa, SPS or GSh-18 with 9x21 AP cartridges. PSM concealed carry pistol never had AP ammo AFAIK. Neither it was used as an assasin weapon. You probably mistaken it for even smaller PSS pistol, which IS an assasin weapon by design.
PSM is in fact a kind of commander's "last resort" weapon - to fire a couple rounds at unexpected attackers, than fire yourself at the head (you do not want to be captured and interrogated for state secrets, do you?).
Thats what he said in a dedicated video, he's not mistaking it with anything, he just voiced public perception of the gun
"Die CIA Pig!" almost made me choke it was so funny. I was quite oxygen deprived from laughing so hard
I love your videos mate fecking hilarious.
It's good to see the PSM's alleged armor piercing capability actually confirmed. It's certainly interesting and I would be surprised to find out the Russians worked on the concept of a subcompact pistol with good armor penetration.
It's not confirmed, I believe in similar conditions a 9mm at 1100 FPS would have penetrated the vest. Kevlar needs a soft backer like a body to work.
i didn't expect it to go through
Thanks for sharing this. I was wondering about something that was pointed out abut the ballistics of this vs. .22 LR; if the reason this round penetrates armor is the bullet components, then by reason, wouldn't a .22LR penetrate body armor if it was made of the same or similer material?
Old comment, but the answer is yes. Virtually every caliber in existence can penetrate soft body armor with proper ammunition design.
This thing is really cool. Wish I could get one!
It looks like you have the body armor backwards, that is the strikeface is facing the wood and the interior is facing outward. Unless you just had it backwards in the carrier. That can make soft armor less effective as it's designed to take hits with the strikeface forward. In any case, I doubt it would matter and those rounds would likely have gotten through in any case. Thanks for this video. Man, I wish those little PSMs were widely available here in the USA. I've been fascinated with them ever since in the mid 1980s a grainy photo of one (with a lot of supposition and theory) appeared in the back of one of my regular gun magazines.
The 7.62x25mm Tokarev rounds are considered Special Threat rounds, without a special trauma plate they should penetrate most IIIA armor.
The shadow is wreaking with the contrast while trying to see the dimples. Try turning the target towards the sun and film the inverse perspective shot.
Really for what it is the PSM is a great little gun...and I think performs exactly as they intended...twice the penetrating power of a .22lr in a .22lr package...sure they could have upped velocity but then would have to beef up the gun to handle that extra power...plus make the gun flippy and harder to keep on target...increase size and weight...and who here does not want a .22lr that is center fire with FMJ bullets...giving us the ability to reload our .22 ...play with bullet weight and design...Best of all no more .22lr shortages..
I want one so badly!
Very interesting. I'd heard of the PSM less as an assassination pistol, but rather more as a bodyguard's weapon. The idea would be something that can disappear completely, but still be effective enough. I don't know if that's true, either, though. It doesn't have too much snag potential.