Yeah, the only Shimakaze mistake was to keep moving while smoking. He could have saved the game by just sitting in the smoke for the last 30 seconds. However, the fact that the Venezia, Austin, and Sherman all decided to charge the enemy while spread out too thin to provide mutual fire support was the actual throw. Hack's team gave the enemy the opportunity to still win while also giving the enemy most every advantage to do it, which is about as perfect an example of throwing the game as I can think of.
That was a group effort throw. There were multiple instances where minor errors snowballed. Hack lost too much HP in the initial engagement and could have made some better decisions with his AA and dodging of attacks. The Austin was definitely in shooting range of the Zorky at the end and his aim let him down against the CV. Hack should have fired on the zorky when it was engaging the friendly Venezia. The shima should have turned and run immediately upon the Austin dying etc. Of course it’s also unfair to put all the blame on just these players when the rest of the team was already dead. The pressure is much higher when you’re the last ones left.
@@Apollad2 adrenaline rush is useful but if that was the intention it ultimately resulted in a loss. Purposely throwing away HP makes no sense in closely fought games.
This was a classic example of " must win harder"; sometimes you just have to ignore the actions of your teammates and take the decision with the lowest risk to secure the win. That Shima was absolutely making the right decision, but was swayed by the rest of the team going "HI HO SILVER! GIVE ME MORE DAMAGE!"
Honestly, I think the Shima just, got the fear/stress got to him, as he was being poked and prodded in chat for BEING far away, and it’s unfair to say he threw when, I know where he was. However. Hackmaster has little excuse for not engaging the Zorkiy while the Venezia was alive, since he and the Venezia could of finished him, or at least forced him to disengage. So who really threw? The friendly Carrier IMO, because lesson one is to MOVE FROM SPAWN! I don’t even play carriers and I know, DON’T STAY STATIONARY.
I think it is also worth mentioning the shima had his AA on which got him found by the CV at the end. and he could have smoked up for the remainder of the battle as soon as his team mates died but still hackmaster threw just as much by getting so paddled at the start for no reason and at the end he and the austin could have nailed the cv together, then the zorkiy has no chance. Plus the scrolling in and out hurt my soul.
Yea, I was going to say that by not doing the simples and moving the friendly carrier condemned his team to go into the end game without eyes vs a team with vision...
I don't lay a lot of CV but i often don't move in the first 5 minutes of a battle. I want to see how the flanks go before moving to make sure i don't put my ship in a bad place. And it has gotten me killed a few times when a ship sneaks up on me.
The issue with moving a CV is it's a big target with a big citadel and no armor. A lot of the time if there is no cover near your spawn you are best off ether just staying where you spawn until a flank is won then move there, or hit reverse the moment the battle starts and start moving to a flank after you've gotten out of the rough effective ranges of the BBs on the other team, otherwise you will just die from the spotting from the other teams CVs. Not saying the friendly CV was right to not move, just saying with all the long range and accurate BBs in the game these days I can't blame him for not moving and giving them an even larger target to shoot at, when we all know the moment a CV gets spotted the red mist descends on the other team and everyone tries to shoot it.
Honestly it was the Sherman, Austin, and Venezia who threw this match. There was no reason to continue the engagement and they pressured the Shima, who originally made the correct decision, into re-engaging the other team. I feel sorry for the Shima who definitely would’ve won the game for them if he didn’t get pressured into returning back to the fight.
Also, shooting at the Zorky instead of the Malta. Malta had less HP, is the much easier target, and of course, because planes. Also the Austin having a 20 seconds window of opportunity to shoot at and likely kill the Zorky after reacquiring at 18:30 but trying to... go stealth? This wasn't on the Shima, who never should have been in that position.
@@DevSolar I think that was his original intention. But everything went down when Venezia died without killing Zorky (I guess he thought Venezia can handle it somehow). This (in combination with Shima retreating) effectively throwed 4vs2 advantage team had, as instead of fighting together, everybody ended up fighting alone against Zorky and Malta.
@@DevSolar Not sure the Austin was in range, and my guess would be that was what was stopping Hackmister from shooting. Both of them, however, should've known that a Venezia at that kind of range is not good against a DD. The reload time on it's guns prohibit it from being a significant threat, so Hackmister had to open fire and draw attention away from the Venezia to try and catch the Zorkiy in a crossfire. But I agree with another comment from That1Connor, the real throw was the CV who got torped at the start of the game. If that CV had survived it wouldn't have been a contest, Hackmisters team would've won. Sure, Hackmister and the Austin did throw by trying to win harder, but CV's really shouldn't be being torped by DD's that early in a game. Also, it wasn't the Shima's fault. The only thing he did wrong was run engine boost and smoke. Even going back to help the team wasn't really a bad call if he could still stealth up. Plus, Shima was right not to go for the 2 kills. If he had stuck to his original instinct they would've won.
There were definitely more throws than just the Shima. -Hackmister choosing to eat 20k at the start of the game for no real benefit I can discern (sorry, protagonist of this story). -Immelmann not moving from start point. -Whole team not communicating with one another, leading to the piecemeal attack at the end. --For that matter, the team deciding to attack was silly. -Bad target choice for Hackmister, CV was way more killable (also, Zorkiy, though it is a supership, is much less dangerous). -Hackmister not engaging either the Zorkiy or the carrier for a long time while in range of both (Malta enters gun range at 17:08, Zorkiy enters gun range at 16:38, our intrepid hero opens fire at 17:26. That's almost 20 seconds of DPS against the carrier that Hackmister missed out on. Could have taken the Malta with that, as it was on only 6k health, meaning at a reload of 1.3 s (it's faster) each salvo would have only had to do just under 400 damage to kill the carrier *before* he opened fire on the Zorkiy. Conversely, if he had opened fire on the Zorkiy earlier, he would have been able to take advantage of the Zorkiy's target fixation and lack of evasive manoeuvres (as he's looking at the Venezia) and possibly remove the Zorkiy from play. I'm aware F. Sherman's guns are floaty, but the chance of damage is worth a lot more than the certainty of no damage.
absolutely correct, even position wise malta was the better target, he can sail mostly away from the zorky while hitting malta, but shooting zorky somewhat forced him to sail directly at both and made him a very easy target for zorky.
"Where is the shimakaze going?" Well Jingles, he's only taking your oft-given advice to NOT WIN HARDER than you already are. I haven't finished the video yet lol so we shall see
Definitely can't say it was just the Shima. The last four ships *all* made a series of actually mostly innocuous decisions (i.e. shooting at the Malta vs the Zorky) that nonetheless had dire consequences. I wouldn't even say most of it was a result of bad decision making under pressure. Sometimes it's just really hard to predict how little things are going to butterfly effect you in the long run before it actually happens.
2 года назад+15
Sherman had a bit more impact on the "throw" in my opinion. First of all those first minutes, where he basically gave up all his health up for free, where he could easily smoked up stoped reversing in one direction and used def AA (for wtvr good that does) and not take that much damage from shells and rockets. And in the end, instead of fighting zorkyi with that low HP, should've focused the CV, basically freeing Austin to hunt zorkyi at will. All in all not a bad game from both teams.
that was cool. looked like it was HackmisterK's team in the end not paying attention to each other, and going blind one by one. making overwhelming numbers into multiple 1VS2 fights.
Some ships have actually good AA and DFAA. The Halland and Salland though need the captain to shine. The Elbing is a bit of a sleeper though, it's counter intuitive with it's 6.9 km range but if you catch a CV with your DFAA at that range you tend to swat the strike group.
“Make AA fucking work” well as you’ve said before wargamings speed of responding to player feedback is the only thing slower than benson torpedoes so there’s no chance in AA working
Sadly I must say Hackmister threw this. When he had the Zorky in range, which was busy shooting up the Venezia, that was the time he should have engaged. Maybe he had lost his life but he would have given the Venezia and the Austin time to kill the Zorky. Frustrating to watch.
Having your bladder wake you up at 3:00 am... negative point, stubbing your toe on the door frame before you can turn on the light... negative point, laying back down and getting comfortable, but then become thirsty... negative point, while getting glass of water, hearing notification of a new Jingles Video... positive points 10!! Morning outcome: +7!
A WOT batlle in WOWS!?! A demonstration of the shortcomings of democracy AND a display of localised superiority/destruction in detail? You, sir, truly are a master in story telling.
This is the world of warships equivalent to "no cap kill all". The team chose their fight, and unfortunately they came at the enemies one at a time. Plus the carrier, like arty, decided not to move at all. This was a world of tanks match, just with boats
This was the equivalent of that match where your team can cap freely, but instead they wish the engage a E3 on the other side of the map and lose to it.
I would argue this game belongs more in "The Fun Police". There wouldnt be a throw here if it wasn't for the carriers ability completely circumvent the trditional rock-paper-scissors of WoWS. You can't run from them, you can't hide from them, you can't defend yourself from them. The Fun Police comes for all men, in time.
I don't know if anyone is in the same boat as me, i do not play WoW, WoT, WT any of these games, but i watch every video purely for jingles. Brilliant vid as always
Rather ironically, i used to play Wows, until after the carrier rework, my PC couldn't really handle it and i hated the rework, a while after i quit i found jingles and began learning how i could of improved rather than being the filthy co-op only noob i was ( i tried Random battles during a Halloween event and later on lower tiers but found i could get better rewards on co-op)
In order to make AA work, they would have to make Carrier players able to control several flights at once so that they could potentially execute a coordinated attack from multiple angles. And I doubt they would bother with that, as that takes brains...
The original RTS style of CV gameplay was exactly that, and it was very cancerous as well. However, you could actually build to make your AA ships true monsters that could wipe out a CV's entire compliment of aircraft (CV's also has finite number of planes back then). That went out the window when the rework came about. So the situation went from shit to even shittier sadly, because WG doesn't balance the game based off of a ships actual effectiveness and for the health of the game. They balance it based off of what gets them the highest bottom line; as well as what will ensure that they can go back to their stock holders and say "Hey look what an amazing improvement we have done to milk more $$$'s from the consumer base too foolish to not pay for garbage like CV's and Submarines!"
Scroll zooming, ugh. Not using hydro or smoke when necessary. Not using AA. losing 2/3 hp in the first 3 min. Yeah it's not just the shima that threw the match. That throw was a team effort.
To be fair to the Shima player i have been in the same situation in my Jervis, my team was ahead i wanted to leave it (And told them to) but the rest of the team went in and i went into help (It was 4 ships on my team and 2 on the enemy) and it did go wrong for my team thanks to the two crusiers broadsiding a battleship (Which went so well let me tell you) leaving the battlship alone with no support against a Destroyer and Battleship combo, they didn't last long, thankfully for me i was too far away to do anything so i could run away again and run the clock down.
I personally would put a lot of blame on the friendly carrier, oops i meant airfield because he clearly loaded in the battle without any engines being towed by tug boats
Still find it funny how JUST AFTER this ship came out WG introduced the "semi homing torpedos" which allow ships with otherwise highly restricted Torpedo angles to have surprisingly wide torpedo angles. And of course WG will NEVER go back and buff any of their old content with this new useful mechanic no matter how much of a BOOST it would be. And its not like the Forrest Shermen would benefit TOO much from it ether, its only got 2 torps per side after all and is VERY CLEARLY a Gunboat. I just wish it did have them cus GOD those torpedo angles are POINTLESS!
Honestly, this was the final straw for me playing WoWs regularly. WG does a lot of screwy stuff, but making sure BBs have free torpedo angles over a destroyer that actually has them instead of fixed launchers really took the wind out of my sails.
@@micheljavert5923 Be like me, stopped playing since last year. I gave WG chance after CV rework but they failed. And now look at the game after I left, my best decision ever. My stress significantly lowered since I stopped playing.
@@l7986 British Battle Cruisers and the new Japanese Light Cruisers have torpedos that can turn, thus giving them WIDER torp angles then they actually should.
AA not working is pretty much the entire reason I stopped playing. When a atlanta or smolensk ships that are more AA gun that ship struggle to shoot down planes its ridiculous
This doesn't feel like a typical GoT episode because the throwing team didn't do anything especially stupid, they just make fully understandable mistakes. Mistakes, to be sure, but all individually logical at the time.
The Shima should have run when the Austin was on life-support behind that island. Some people just don't recognize the truth of the situation until way too late.
LOL! At the beginning of the match, a player comments "Be smart and stay alive," and a teammate replies "I thought this was the race to the sea floor."
love the comments in the game at the end: "shima just run" "shima just hit the cv with he" easy to say what to do when you're dead and overwatching the battle
i love the fact that you are showing the losing side's recording. This video should be mandatory to every WoTs player. I've lost waaaay too many games because of some player decide to win harder
I mean, the Shima seems to initially have had the right idea, but it did end up throwing nonetheles. The only difference between it and the rest of the team is that he might have actually realized at one point that they maybe didn't need to kill all the enemy ships. Shima gets 4/5 throws, the remaining teammates alive after all cap points was taken gets 5/5 throws
Shima was shamed into joining winning harder. I'd give him 3/5 throws, even though he paniced at the end. It's an important lesson in backing yourself though.
well, yes - the shima kinda fucked up in the very end, but so did all surving teammates. Clear cut-case of severe wannawinharderrytis by the Venezia, Sherman and Austin, while the shima was the only one, who at least had the correct initial thought "no way they can win by points - lets just run and hide", while the other three though "lets kill all of them", while underestimating the potentrial of the combo Zorky+CV.
I think the throw was made by the entire team around 4-5 minutes prior to the end. They had all 3 caps, the enemies were miles away from the caps. The only way to lose at that point was - literally - to have all of them die. Even if the enemies tried to go for the caps and killed all but 1 person, the enemy team would not have reached enough points in time to turn the game around. Taking into account that the enemy had a living carrier and they didn't, the correct play would've been to escape towards the north and to wait things out. The carrier wouldn't be able to kill them in time, because the travel time of his aircraft would've been too long. The Zorky and the Hindenburg can be outranged, preventing them from killing the friendlies. In addition to that, kiting away makes it easier to hit and less likely to get hit, because your shells have reduced travel time and those of the pursuer will have increased travel time. They all decided to hunt down the remaining enemies, which was the only potential way they could lose this game.
Being a carrier player, if they still had a carrier in play this would be a win, but nine times out of ten the carrier: doesn't move, doesn't take advantage of low health targets, doesn't spot, doesn't reinforce broken flanks, and doesn't think. The only smart thing the carrier did was recycle his aircraft at the beginning of the match. I now know why carriers are easy mode, 90% of us are idiots. WG made it stupid easy to do well in carriers and most carrier players are still too stupid to take advantage of it.
My view is different, I would say the loss is due to HackmisterK, he had two targets to fire at, the Carrier or the Zorkiy and he chose the Zorkiy, if it was me I would have shot at the Carrier, it was giving a broadside and is bigger slower and less manoeuvrable than the Zorkiy plus a much bigger threat to the team and HackmaisterK could have started to shoot at it when the Zorkiy was still distracted, he may have still died to the Zorkiy but I judge that it wouldn’t have mattered.
This. If you have enemy CV that low on hp and in range, you aim and finish it. No questions. Especially if you do not have a CV of your own. Venezia didn´t stand a chance against Malta+Zorkyi and Austin would eventually go down as well to CV. The only ships that could make a difference were Sherman and Shima. Shima desided to go get involved after teasing from rest of his teammates and our Sherman... made questionable decisions both at the start AND at the end of this battle, leading to losing too much hp himself and leaving some hp on enemies at the same time
One could argue that Sherman did the throwing as they were the one who opened up on the remaining ships initially, drawing the allied ships to join in.
It's the F. Sherman's Fault. After the Venezia died the Shimakaze was disengaging and the Austin was already out of sight.. But when the Sherman YOLOed (with one Salvo worth of health) he forced the Austin to assist, who in turn forced the Shimakaze to assist.
Thanks for sharing Jingles, have followed you for awhile and now I follow you on WOW lol even though I don’t play it lol. Still enjoy the videos immensely
I think it all started going down when our hero started opening up on the Zorky at 10 kms. Sherman is a good gunboat but when it comes to ballistics the russian gunboats can easily outrade him. U make sure u get at least the kill on Zorky by going as close as possible so Austin can handle Malta and then the game is easily won. (usually) But shit happens and u can learn from it. GG And that Shima - well why is he even on T10 is the question that should be asked.
My 2 cents on the carriers/AA situation as a Battleship main: The carrier should always be able to get at least one strike off against anything other than a massive blob of ships. Imagine if you were in a Vermont, you caught an enemy flat broadside, and then the enemy presses a button and had the chance to just cause some or all of your shells to be deleted from the game. While I believe AA could use a bit more tuning, I feel like overall the surface ship players seem to act like unless their Zao alone on a flank has the ability to wipe an FDR squad before it can attack once by popping the DFAA it took instead of Hydro, AA is too weak. Perhaps AA could be tweaked in a way to make overlapping fire from multiple ships cause a bit of bonus damage to encourage team-play to counter carriers while still allowing them to punish players who are out of position with impunity.
I hear WG is going to change the AA mechanics next patch. My faith in WG getting it right. ROFL. Then I thought which ship as the worst AA the HMS Gallant with eight .50 machine guns (4 per side) or the IJN Asashio with four 25mm guns (2 per side) then I remember the HMS Agincourt which has none. The CV, in a world when everyone is blind the one eyed man is King.
I concur with Jingles; the Venetia, Sherman and Austin made the crucial mistake. The Shima made the mistake of going back to assist them in their mistake.
it was a thrown, but I don't blame the shimakaze, it's clear there was a team effort involved in the throw, sure he could've won alone by staying far away, but the rest of the team could also have realized that they didn't need to charge either
It’s funny that in the battle of Midway got strikes in, although attacking carriers surrounded with support ships. According to Jingles logic, that would have been impossible
It was a throw, but the Shima wasn't the one doing it. His fatal, match-deciding smoking panic-move was when the game was already thrown by the other 3 dudes who got themselves killed off one by one.
Game of throws, truly hard to call it that, even though at the end it clearly was a throw. I see what you mean Jingles. But it was a very nice game to watch indeed. The fact that carrier lived below 1k HP was the the thing that cost them the match and that Zorky, though playing a very OP DD, played the end game very very well. Also I found it interesting that Sherman didn't put down a smoke screen for the Austin, that's what I would've done in a couple situations earlier, becasue Austin can really thrive with its ridiculous DPM while the reload boost is active and he also wouldn't have lost that much HP in the meantime. I always look out for friendly cruisers that need a smoke screen in my DD. It just really helps to win games ;)
Only halfway through the video but I'm already seeing a big throw from our hero in the Sherman: Hack, quit slowly zooming with the scroll wheel! Use the Shift key!
It's always a team effort, but the Shima could have done anything else and it would have been better. First, she could have just run north. Now assuming she didn't run north, she could have 1. Gotten into the fight with everyone else 2. Used her guns to take out the two low health ships 3. Stayed undetected and launched torps until she was spotted by aircraft, then get her guns into the battle. I know hindsight is 20/20 and I know there was a lot of pressure at the end there. So not blaming the Shima for the complete loss, just offering alternatives for how she could have won. Anyways great content as always old man, cheers.
Allow me to remind everyone that British Carriers have the SLOWEST, but MOST TANKY planes in the entire game, the Malta included. Those planes can TANK multiple FLAK shells even IF you buff the ship out of it. Probably not quite as tanky as the FDR's planes but a close second. The only planes you can reliably shoot down in World of Warships at the moment are Japanese and German Carrier planes. US planes have just enough hp to get at least 1 strike off, sometimes 2 (might kill em all if ya get lucky). British planes.....you may as well turn your AA guns off, you might kill ONE plane at best.
Regarding the current status of CVs in this game, I basically play until I get CV'd (maybe a half dozen games) and then call it a night because it's not worth the tilt. Except sometimes I get sub'd which gets me to quit too. It's almost like WG doesn't want me playing their game.
Idk if you can pin this on the Shima. Venezia tried to win harder; Sherman waited too long to help the Venezia, but not long enough for the Austin to help him; and the Austin twice put islands between him and the CV/Zorky. Shima had the right idea to run north, but turned around when everyone else tried to win harder. Shima got the worst of both outcomes, he got there too late to help everyone but was in perfect position to be spotted and gunned down.
IMO this was entirely Hackmister's fault. He had a firing solution on both the Zorkiy and later the Malta while they were focusing their fire on the Venezia and waited until after the Venezia went down to open fire. If he had fired while they were distracted, they would have been easy kills.
He's initial instinct to "abandon" the team would have won the game, the rest of the team decided to instead try harder then needed, the shimakaze wanting to help the team came back, but then the rest of the team died leaving him stranded close to a carrier. He made the wrong decision with no way of knowing it was the wrong decision. Then panicked with the smoke.
Yeah this was a Team Effort. The Team burned their own house down. The poor Shima, is just the poor bastard that got left there. Holding the matches and the gas can at his feet. When the fire department and the fun police showed up.
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Nah, this throw was a team effort - Shima was just the ship that made the last mistake.
The rest of the team tried to win harder first and when the Shima was making the right choice they shamed him in chat for not trying harder with them
@@sleepygryph did they? I didn't see it on chat, or I may have misinterpreted it...
@@matheusGMN saying he has G9 well covered, like running as far from a carrier when you're up on points is a bad thing
Yeah, the only Shimakaze mistake was to keep moving while smoking. He could have saved the game by just sitting in the smoke for the last 30 seconds. However, the fact that the Venezia, Austin, and Sherman all decided to charge the enemy while spread out too thin to provide mutual fire support was the actual throw. Hack's team gave the enemy the opportunity to still win while also giving the enemy most every advantage to do it, which is about as perfect an example of throwing the game as I can think of.
Yes, the scroll zooming Sherman wasn't much better...
That was a group effort throw. There were multiple instances where minor errors snowballed. Hack lost too much HP in the initial engagement and could have made some better decisions with his AA and dodging of attacks. The Austin was definitely in shooting range of the Zorky at the end and his aim let him down against the CV. Hack should have fired on the zorky when it was engaging the friendly Venezia. The shima should have turned and run immediately upon the Austin dying etc. Of course it’s also unfair to put all the blame on just these players when the rest of the team was already dead. The pressure is much higher when you’re the last ones left.
Call me crazy, i think that was intentional to get adrenaline rush up rather high to take all the damage at the start
@@Apollad2 adrenaline rush is useful but if that was the intention it ultimately resulted in a loss. Purposely throwing away HP makes no sense in closely fought games.
ya 12hr shift + M6 Red wine and Jingles
Jingles confuses the Austin and Sherman a couple times. Never change gnome overlord
well both of them got cat ear gun turrets so
I kept hearing osten good to know it was Austin
and "each team has 2 cap circles" wtf jingles, there is only 3!! LOL confused as always.
He's doing it on purpose to boost the comments.
@@leftyo9589 It's like that time he once caught a fish this
The scroll-wheel zooming Sherman, losing most of his HP in the first couple minutes, set the tone for the video.
After a 12 hr shift and dinner with the family i sat on the pc to enjoy a a cup of tea. Jingles showing up with impeccable timing
I’m 3.5 hours away from ending my 16 hour shift, I feel ya
@@faltomjager5823 what are working as? I can barely get myself past 9 hours 👁️👄👁️
Diner 2hours ago? You from japan?
I’m about an hour before heading out for my shift.
16 hour shifts...thats what all of my December looks like. I run a grocery store.
This was a classic example of " must win harder"; sometimes you just have to ignore the actions of your teammates and take the decision with the lowest risk to secure the win. That Shima was absolutely making the right decision, but was swayed by the rest of the team going "HI HO SILVER! GIVE ME MORE DAMAGE!"
Honestly, I think the Shima just, got the fear/stress got to him, as he was being poked and prodded in chat for BEING far away, and it’s unfair to say he threw when, I know where he was.
However.
Hackmaster has little excuse for not engaging the Zorkiy while the Venezia was alive, since he and the Venezia could of finished him, or at least forced him to disengage.
So who really threw?
The friendly Carrier IMO, because lesson one is to MOVE FROM SPAWN! I don’t even play carriers and I know, DON’T STAY STATIONARY.
I think it is also worth mentioning the shima had his AA on which got him found by the CV at the end. and he could have smoked up for the remainder of the battle as soon as his team mates died but still hackmaster threw just as much by getting so paddled at the start for no reason and at the end he and the austin could have nailed the cv together, then the zorkiy has no chance.
Plus the scrolling in and out hurt my soul.
Honestly, this was team throw on many levels, that those individual throws ultimately lead to defeat.
Yea, I was going to say that by not doing the simples and moving the friendly carrier condemned his team to go into the end game without eyes vs a team with vision...
I don't lay a lot of CV but i often don't move in the first 5 minutes of a battle. I want to see how the flanks go before moving to make sure i don't put my ship in a bad place. And it has gotten me killed a few times when a ship sneaks up on me.
The issue with moving a CV is it's a big target with a big citadel and no armor. A lot of the time if there is no cover near your spawn you are best off ether just staying where you spawn until a flank is won then move there, or hit reverse the moment the battle starts and start moving to a flank after you've gotten out of the rough effective ranges of the BBs on the other team, otherwise you will just die from the spotting from the other teams CVs.
Not saying the friendly CV was right to not move, just saying with all the long range and accurate BBs in the game these days I can't blame him for not moving and giving them an even larger target to shoot at, when we all know the moment a CV gets spotted the red mist descends on the other team and everyone tries to shoot it.
Honestly it was the Sherman, Austin, and Venezia who threw this match. There was no reason to continue the engagement and they pressured the Shima, who originally made the correct decision, into re-engaging the other team. I feel sorry for the Shima who definitely would’ve won the game for them if he didn’t get pressured into returning back to the fight.
aslo the F sherman should have fired on the malta not the zorky
My moneys on Hackmister for only opening up on the Zorky as his Venezia died. He had a good 20 seconds of the Zorky being focused on the Venezia!!
Also, shooting at the Zorky instead of the Malta. Malta had less HP, is the much easier target, and of course, because planes. Also the Austin having a 20 seconds window of opportunity to shoot at and likely kill the Zorky after reacquiring at 18:30 but trying to... go stealth? This wasn't on the Shima, who never should have been in that position.
@@DevSolar I think that was his original intention. But everything went down when Venezia died without killing Zorky (I guess he thought Venezia can handle it somehow). This (in combination with Shima retreating) effectively throwed 4vs2 advantage team had, as instead of fighting together, everybody ended up fighting alone against Zorky and Malta.
@@DevSolar Not sure the Austin was in range, and my guess would be that was what was stopping Hackmister from shooting. Both of them, however, should've known that a Venezia at that kind of range is not good against a DD. The reload time on it's guns prohibit it from being a significant threat, so Hackmister had to open fire and draw attention away from the Venezia to try and catch the Zorkiy in a crossfire. But I agree with another comment from That1Connor, the real throw was the CV who got torped at the start of the game. If that CV had survived it wouldn't have been a contest, Hackmisters team would've won. Sure, Hackmister and the Austin did throw by trying to win harder, but CV's really shouldn't be being torped by DD's that early in a game.
Also, it wasn't the Shima's fault. The only thing he did wrong was run engine boost and smoke. Even going back to help the team wasn't really a bad call if he could still stealth up. Plus, Shima was right not to go for the 2 kills. If he had stuck to his original instinct they would've won.
Yeah watching him watch his teammates die while not doing anything at all was really painful.
yeah they should have never engaged and then hesitated with shooting. i mean, you are there.
There were definitely more throws than just the Shima.
-Hackmister choosing to eat 20k at the start of the game for no real benefit I can discern (sorry, protagonist of this story).
-Immelmann not moving from start point.
-Whole team not communicating with one another, leading to the piecemeal attack at the end.
--For that matter, the team deciding to attack was silly.
-Bad target choice for Hackmister, CV was way more killable (also, Zorkiy, though it is a supership, is much less dangerous).
-Hackmister not engaging either the Zorkiy or the carrier for a long time while in range of both (Malta enters gun range at 17:08, Zorkiy enters gun range at 16:38, our intrepid hero opens fire at 17:26. That's almost 20 seconds of DPS against the carrier that Hackmister missed out on. Could have taken the Malta with that, as it was on only 6k health, meaning at a reload of 1.3 s (it's faster) each salvo would have only had to do just under 400 damage to kill the carrier *before* he opened fire on the Zorkiy. Conversely, if he had opened fire on the Zorkiy earlier, he would have been able to take advantage of the Zorkiy's target fixation and lack of evasive manoeuvres (as he's looking at the Venezia) and possibly remove the Zorkiy from play. I'm aware F. Sherman's guns are floaty, but the chance of damage is worth a lot more than the certainty of no damage.
absolutely correct, even position wise malta was the better target, he can sail mostly away from the zorky while hitting malta, but shooting zorky somewhat forced him to sail directly at both and made him a very easy target for zorky.
"Where is the shimakaze going?"
Well Jingles, he's only taking your oft-given advice to NOT WIN HARDER than you already are. I haven't finished the video yet lol so we shall see
Definitely can't say it was just the Shima. The last four ships *all* made a series of actually mostly innocuous decisions (i.e. shooting at the Malta vs the Zorky) that nonetheless had dire consequences. I wouldn't even say most of it was a result of bad decision making under pressure. Sometimes it's just really hard to predict how little things are going to butterfly effect you in the long run before it actually happens.
Sherman had a bit more impact on the "throw" in my opinion. First of all those first minutes, where he basically gave up all his health up for free, where he could easily smoked up stoped reversing in one direction and used def AA (for wtvr good that does) and not take that much damage from shells and rockets. And in the end, instead of fighting zorkyi with that low HP, should've focused the CV, basically freeing Austin to hunt zorkyi at will. All in all not a bad game from both teams.
Just started my 30 min break and a 20 min jingles video. Perfect timing
that was cool.
looked like it was HackmisterK's team in the end not paying attention to each other, and going blind one by one.
making overwhelming numbers into multiple 1VS2 fights.
It's always nice to open up your computer to a new Jingles video, especially to a new Game of Throws episode
It all went down to Malta (or carriers in general) being "slightly" OP
I love how he didn't even bother to use DFAAs mostly because we're all know why
I was just causally scrolling though the comments and saw this just as he commented on four ships using their DFAA to defend against the Malta.
@@shotgun0261 they didn't tho lol. Also he keeps calling it defensive cooldown? Idk
Some ships have actually good AA and DFAA. The Halland and Salland though need the captain to shine. The Elbing is a bit of a sleeper though, it's counter intuitive with it's 6.9 km range but if you catch a CV with your DFAA at that range you tend to swat the strike group.
DFAA is actually very effective on F. Sherman. I was surprised he wasnt using it.
@@TaraZaraChara Sherman has 4 flak with barely any AAs dpm, pretty sure no Sherman players care about their DFAAs mate
“Make AA fucking work” well as you’ve said before wargamings speed of responding to player feedback is the only thing slower than benson torpedoes so there’s no chance in AA working
Scrolling in and out for aiming... AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
Sadly I must say Hackmister threw this. When he had the Zorky in range, which was busy shooting up the Venezia, that was the time he should have engaged. Maybe he had lost his life but he would have given the Venezia and the Austin time to kill the Zorky. Frustrating to watch.
Having your bladder wake you up at 3:00 am... negative point, stubbing your toe on the door frame before you can turn on the light... negative point, laying back down and getting comfortable, but then become thirsty... negative point, while getting glass of water, hearing notification of a new Jingles Video... positive points 10!! Morning outcome: +7!
Both teams still only have 2 cap circles.
Jingles doing funky maths I see
I totally agree about your AA evaluation, Sir.
I stopped playing this game but I cannot stop watching this series.
Jingles. I have watched you for years but there's no hiding the anguish behind your voice when you said, "Well if they make aa f**king work."
A WOT batlle in WOWS!?! A demonstration of the shortcomings of democracy AND a display of localised superiority/destruction in detail? You, sir, truly are a master in story telling.
This is the world of warships equivalent to "no cap kill all". The team chose their fight, and unfortunately they came at the enemies one at a time. Plus the carrier, like arty, decided not to move at all. This was a world of tanks match, just with boats
This was the equivalent of that match where your team can cap freely, but instead they wish the engage a E3 on the other side of the map and lose to it.
I would argue this game belongs more in "The Fun Police". There wouldnt be a throw here if it wasn't for the carriers ability completely circumvent the trditional rock-paper-scissors of WoWS. You can't run from them, you can't hide from them, you can't defend yourself from them. The Fun Police comes for all men, in time.
Man I haven't seen your videos in a decade I'm happy to have you back on my feed
No proper day can start without Jingles!
Lmfao thank you for the AA comment jingles that gave me a good laugh right when I needed it. Thank you sir
Love the videos jingles keep it up your amazing and never fail to make my day
Oh jingles, the austin had halsey not the sherman. Never change old man
Just finished making dinner and a Jingles video drops, perfect timing good sir
The scroll zoom again, my eyes!
I think that was the most incredible throw I've ever seen.
I dont even play this game anymore but love watching jingles
I don't know if anyone is in the same boat as me, i do not play WoW, WoT, WT any of these games, but i watch every video purely for jingles. Brilliant vid as always
Rather ironically, i used to play Wows, until after the carrier rework, my PC couldn't really handle it and i hated the rework, a while after i quit i found jingles and began learning how i could of improved rather than being the filthy co-op only noob i was ( i tried Random battles during a Halloween event and later on lower tiers but found i could get better rewards on co-op)
The decision to run or engage with a lead late in the game is one of the hardest to take. Knowing which tactic to use and when is an acquired skill.
In order to make AA work, they would have to make Carrier players able to control several flights at once so that they could potentially execute a coordinated attack from multiple angles.
And I doubt they would bother with that, as that takes brains...
The original RTS style of CV gameplay was exactly that, and it was very cancerous as well. However, you could actually build to make your AA ships true monsters that could wipe out a CV's entire compliment of aircraft (CV's also has finite number of planes back then). That went out the window when the rework came about. So the situation went from shit to even shittier sadly, because WG doesn't balance the game based off of a ships actual effectiveness and for the health of the game. They balance it based off of what gets them the highest bottom line; as well as what will ensure that they can go back to their stock holders and say "Hey look what an amazing improvement we have done to milk more $$$'s from the consumer base too foolish to not pay for garbage like CV's and Submarines!"
@@Arphalia True.
The irony of throwing the game because a Shima actually tried to help the team for once! Crazy.
Scroll zooming, ugh. Not using hydro or smoke when necessary. Not using AA. losing 2/3 hp in the first 3 min. Yeah it's not just the shima that threw the match. That throw was a team effort.
To be fair to the Shima player i have been in the same situation in my Jervis, my team was ahead i wanted to leave it (And told them to) but the rest of the team went in and i went into help (It was 4 ships on my team and 2 on the enemy) and it did go wrong for my team thanks to the two crusiers broadsiding a battleship (Which went so well let me tell you) leaving the battlship alone with no support against a Destroyer and Battleship combo, they didn't last long, thankfully for me i was too far away to do anything so i could run away again and run the clock down.
I personally would put a lot of blame on the friendly carrier, oops i meant airfield because he clearly loaded in the battle without any engines being towed by tug boats
Still find it funny how JUST AFTER this ship came out WG introduced the "semi homing torpedos" which allow ships with otherwise highly restricted Torpedo angles to have surprisingly wide torpedo angles. And of course WG will NEVER go back and buff any of their old content with this new useful mechanic no matter how much of a BOOST it would be.
And its not like the Forrest Shermen would benefit TOO much from it ether, its only got 2 torps per side after all and is VERY CLEARLY a Gunboat. I just wish it did have them cus GOD those torpedo angles are POINTLESS!
Honestly, this was the final straw for me playing WoWs regularly. WG does a lot of screwy stuff, but making sure BBs have free torpedo angles over a destroyer that actually has them instead of fixed launchers really took the wind out of my sails.
@@micheljavert5923 Be like me, stopped playing since last year. I gave WG chance after CV rework but they failed. And now look at the game after I left, my best decision ever. My stress significantly lowered since I stopped playing.
What ships received semi homing torpedos? British battlecruisers?
Yep
@@l7986 British Battle Cruisers and the new Japanese Light Cruisers have torpedos that can turn, thus giving them WIDER torp angles then they actually should.
I couldn't blame the Shima, they made the right call to turn north, peer pressure won out in the end.
Damn this Game of Throws Seeason is going pretty strong^^
AA not working is pretty much the entire reason I stopped playing. When a atlanta or smolensk ships that are more AA gun that ship struggle to shoot down planes its ridiculous
This doesn't feel like a typical GoT episode because the throwing team didn't do anything especially stupid, they just make fully understandable mistakes. Mistakes, to be sure, but all individually logical at the time.
The Shima should have run when the Austin was on life-support behind that island. Some people just don't recognize the truth of the situation until way too late.
LOL! At the beginning of the match, a player comments "Be smart and stay alive," and a teammate replies "I thought this was the race to the sea floor."
love the comments in the game at the end: "shima just run" "shima just hit the cv with he" easy to say what to do when you're dead and overwatching the battle
i love the fact that you are showing the losing side's recording. This video should be mandatory to every WoTs player. I've lost waaaay too many games because of some player decide to win harder
I mean, the Shima seems to initially have had the right idea, but it did end up throwing nonetheles. The only difference between it and the rest of the team is that he might have actually realized at one point that they maybe didn't need to kill all the enemy ships. Shima gets 4/5 throws, the remaining teammates alive after all cap points was taken gets 5/5 throws
Shima was shamed into joining winning harder. I'd give him 3/5 throws, even though he paniced at the end. It's an important lesson in backing yourself though.
What an interesting battle and ship in regards to our main character. Those guns are fast AF!
Between "Destroyer Spam Videos" and "Battleship 200K Damage Videos" it appears Jingles contribution has run its course.
Fuck, I shouldn't be up so late that I catch a Jingle's video on release
well, yes - the shima kinda fucked up in the very end, but so did all surving teammates.
Clear cut-case of severe wannawinharderrytis by the Venezia, Sherman and Austin, while the shima was the only one, who at least had the correct initial thought "no way they can win by points - lets just run and hide", while the other three though "lets kill all of them", while underestimating the potentrial of the combo Zorky+CV.
I think the throw was made by the entire team around 4-5 minutes prior to the end. They had all 3 caps, the enemies were miles away from the caps. The only way to lose at that point was - literally - to have all of them die. Even if the enemies tried to go for the caps and killed all but 1 person, the enemy team would not have reached enough points in time to turn the game around.
Taking into account that the enemy had a living carrier and they didn't, the correct play would've been to escape towards the north and to wait things out. The carrier wouldn't be able to kill them in time, because the travel time of his aircraft would've been too long. The Zorky and the Hindenburg can be outranged, preventing them from killing the friendlies. In addition to that, kiting away makes it easier to hit and less likely to get hit, because your shells have reduced travel time and those of the pursuer will have increased travel time.
They all decided to hunt down the remaining enemies, which was the only potential way they could lose this game.
Being a carrier player, if they still had a carrier in play this would be a win, but nine times out of ten the carrier: doesn't move, doesn't take advantage of low health targets, doesn't spot, doesn't reinforce broken flanks, and doesn't think. The only smart thing the carrier did was recycle his aircraft at the beginning of the match.
I now know why carriers are easy mode, 90% of us are idiots. WG made it stupid easy to do well in carriers and most carrier players are still too stupid to take advantage of it.
*Sniff *Sniff "I smell CVs!
This is a very understandable throw.
My view is different, I would say the loss is due to HackmisterK, he had two targets to fire at, the Carrier or the Zorkiy and he chose the Zorkiy, if it was me I would have shot at the Carrier, it was giving a broadside and is bigger slower and less manoeuvrable than the Zorkiy plus a much bigger threat to the team and HackmaisterK could have started to shoot at it when the Zorkiy was still distracted, he may have still died to the Zorkiy but I judge that it wouldn’t have mattered.
This. If you have enemy CV that low on hp and in range, you aim and finish it. No questions. Especially if you do not have a CV of your own.
Venezia didn´t stand a chance against Malta+Zorkyi and Austin would eventually go down as well to CV. The only ships that could make a difference were Sherman and Shima. Shima desided to go get involved after teasing from rest of his teammates and our Sherman... made questionable decisions both at the start AND at the end of this battle, leading to losing too much hp himself and leaving some hp on enemies at the same time
One could argue that Sherman did the throwing as they were the one who opened up on the remaining ships initially, drawing the allied ships to join in.
In the end, the carrier was on just 999 health, the shima could ah e one shot it
I love Jingles comments on AA, makes my day and reminds me why I no longer play WoWs.
I love how jingles gets so angry about how AA doesn't work
If you get the bad CV at T10 (as the throwing team clearly did) there's not much you can do unless you completely crush the other team.
It's the F. Sherman's Fault.
After the Venezia died the Shimakaze was disengaging and the Austin was already out of sight..
But when the Sherman YOLOed (with one Salvo worth of health) he forced the Austin to assist, who in turn forced the Shimakaze to assist.
I haven’t played this game in nearly 5 years and as it turns out, some things never change…scroll zoom still tilts me to no end.
They decided to try to win harder… oh my god so painful to watch
Thanks for sharing Jingles, have followed you for awhile and now I follow you on WOW lol even though I don’t play it lol. Still enjoy the videos immensely
I think it all started going down when our hero started opening up on the Zorky at 10 kms. Sherman is a good gunboat but when it comes to ballistics the russian gunboats can easily outrade him. U make sure u get at least the kill on Zorky by going as close as possible so Austin can handle Malta and then the game is easily won. (usually)
But shit happens and u can learn from it. GG
And that Shima - well why is he even on T10 is the question that should be asked.
"If you make AA [REDACTED] work, I'll stop complaining"
Yep, 'bout sums it up.
My 2 cents on the carriers/AA situation as a Battleship main:
The carrier should always be able to get at least one strike off against anything other than a massive blob of ships. Imagine if you were in a Vermont, you caught an enemy flat broadside, and then the enemy presses a button and had the chance to just cause some or all of your shells to be deleted from the game.
While I believe AA could use a bit more tuning, I feel like overall the surface ship players seem to act like unless their Zao alone on a flank has the ability to wipe an FDR squad before it can attack once by popping the DFAA it took instead of Hydro, AA is too weak.
Perhaps AA could be tweaked in a way to make overlapping fire from multiple ships cause a bit of bonus damage to encourage team-play to counter carriers while still allowing them to punish players who are out of position with impunity.
I hear WG is going to change the AA mechanics next patch. My faith in WG getting it right. ROFL.
Then I thought which ship as the worst AA the HMS Gallant with eight .50 machine guns (4 per side) or the IJN Asashio with four 25mm guns (2 per side) then I remember the HMS Agincourt which has none. The CV, in a world when everyone is blind the one eyed man is King.
I concur with Jingles; the Venetia, Sherman and Austin made the crucial mistake. The Shima made the mistake of going back to assist them in their mistake.
All I can say with this battle is "oh well, Random battles, it is what it is"...
it was a thrown, but I don't blame the shimakaze, it's clear there was a team effort involved in the throw, sure he could've won alone by staying far away, but the rest of the team could also have realized that they didn't need to charge either
It’s funny that in the battle of Midway got strikes in, although attacking carriers surrounded with support ships.
According to Jingles logic, that would have been impossible
A new Game Of Throws video! Just what the doctor ordered for my COVID stricken self!
It was a throw, but the Shima wasn't the one doing it. His fatal, match-deciding smoking panic-move was when the game was already thrown by the other 3 dudes who got themselves killed off one by one.
That was a massive throw.
Game of throws, truly hard to call it that, even though at the end it clearly was a throw. I see what you mean Jingles. But it was a very nice game to watch indeed. The fact that carrier lived below 1k HP was the the thing that cost them the match and that Zorky, though playing a very OP DD, played the end game very very well. Also I found it interesting that Sherman didn't put down a smoke screen for the Austin, that's what I would've done in a couple situations earlier, becasue Austin can really thrive with its ridiculous DPM while the reload boost is active and he also wouldn't have lost that much HP in the meantime. I always look out for friendly cruisers that need a smoke screen in my DD. It just really helps to win games ;)
That ending hurt my soul.
The best thing about these is that you can turn off the audio and make it so much better to watch
Only halfway through the video but I'm already seeing a big throw from our hero in the Sherman: Hack, quit slowly zooming with the scroll wheel! Use the Shift key!
It's always a team effort, but the Shima could have done anything else and it would have been better.
First, she could have just run north.
Now assuming she didn't run north, she could have
1. Gotten into the fight with everyone else
2. Used her guns to take out the two low health ships
3. Stayed undetected and launched torps until she was spotted by aircraft, then get her guns into the battle.
I know hindsight is 20/20 and I know there was a lot of pressure at the end there. So not blaming the Shima for the complete loss, just offering alternatives for how she could have won.
Anyways great content as always old man, cheers.
Honestly, I wish weegee would just give ships with dp main guns the ability to switch their guns to aa mode
But the DP guns already contribute: they're the ones generating the flak.
Ooof
I've been there done that, too. But that's when you learn.
The lesson is kill the carriers as fast as you can - it gives you more options.
Carriers = priority target.
TBH Jingles, I think he allowed himself to get splatted at the start so he could get the 1.2 second reload through adrenaline rush.
Allow me to remind everyone that British Carriers have the SLOWEST, but MOST TANKY planes in the entire game, the Malta included. Those planes can TANK multiple FLAK shells even IF you buff the ship out of it. Probably not quite as tanky as the FDR's planes but a close second.
The only planes you can reliably shoot down in World of Warships at the moment are Japanese and German Carrier planes. US planes have just enough hp to get at least 1 strike off, sometimes 2 (might kill em all if ya get lucky). British planes.....you may as well turn your AA guns off, you might kill ONE plane at best.
Regarding the current status of CVs in this game, I basically play until I get CV'd (maybe a half dozen games) and then call it a night because it's not worth the tilt. Except sometimes I get sub'd which gets me to quit too. It's almost like WG doesn't want me playing their game.
I’m having a lay down after hearing Jingles say a bad word 😂
Idk if you can pin this on the Shima. Venezia tried to win harder; Sherman waited too long to help the Venezia, but not long enough for the Austin to help him; and the Austin twice put islands between him and the CV/Zorky. Shima had the right idea to run north, but turned around when everyone else tried to win harder. Shima got the worst of both outcomes, he got there too late to help everyone but was in perfect position to be spotted and gunned down.
IMO this was entirely Hackmister's fault. He had a firing solution on both the Zorkiy and later the Malta while they were focusing their fire on the Venezia and waited until after the Venezia went down to open fire. If he had fired while they were distracted, they would have been easy kills.
He's initial instinct to "abandon" the team would have won the game, the rest of the team decided to instead try harder then needed, the shimakaze wanting to help the team came back, but then the rest of the team died leaving him stranded close to a carrier.
He made the wrong decision with no way of knowing it was the wrong decision. Then panicked with the smoke.
Yeah this was a Team Effort. The Team burned their own house down. The poor Shima, is just the poor bastard that got left there. Holding the matches and the gas can at his feet. When the fire department and the fun police showed up.