Do you think this portrait shows Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour (or neither)? Let me know below and remember you can also find me at: BUY MY BOOK (Find Your Irish Ancestors Online): amzn.to/3Z2ChnG Website (with 2 FREE DOWNLOADS): www.historycallingofficial.com/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/
Dendrochronology was attempted on the three panels on which this portrait was created. Sadly, following a significant shaving back of these panels to incorporate a support cradle, it was determined that there was an insufficient sample to establish a date range of when the timbers were felled. However, a significant amount of technical analysis has since been undertaken and conservators confirmed that the ‘AB’ pendant is indeed part of the original composition and not added later. A much better understanding of the provenance of this portrait is due for publication later this year, and thrillingly, it can be taken back through the Moungarret family to the Butler family/Earls of Ormond. It is looking quite magnificent after conservation.
I first read this comment and was fascinated with the information. Then I looked at who wrote the comment and I'm fangirling like a noble's daughter at Henry VIII's court. Hello, Dr. Emmerson! 👋👋👋
I think this could actually depict Anne… 1. The „dent“ next to the eye matches the medal 2. so does the chin 3. you can clearly see her eyebrows, janes are so light that they start to disappear 4. the ab brooch kinda looks legit to me, it‘s not as „simple“ as the b-pendant 5. in the b-portrait painting that shows her hands she doesn‘t wear a wedding ring, so that‘s probably from their courtship, if this painting was painted towards the end of her life then there were quite a few years in between PLUS she was under a lot of stress which doesn‘t necessarily make you age backwards
That is what I think too! I think so many people want to mold her to our modern ideas of beauty, but she was never described as being a great beauty. I think Henry fell for her personality. This looks most like the medal to me.
Agree as soon as I saw this I thought of the most happiest medal also I'd love someone to superimpose A right facing side, Elizabeth portrait over the top of this one to see the difference or similarities ❤
It absolutely looks like the medal, the eyes mouth and chin are very much the same. Jane Seymour had a recessed chin and her eyes are not as heavy lidded, I just don't see it .
Your videos have taught me so much of Tudor history. My husband wanted to watch The Tudors and I sat for a few minutes to watch it with him. I think my husband finally became annoyed when I said, “Well, ACTUALLY,” for the 10th time.
I could be wrong, but why would Jane Seymour wear anything with Anne’s initials even in a portrait, when Henry the eighth went crazy, trying to abolish All of Ann’s initials portraits anything that had to do with her from every residence he had. It makes no sense to me as the control freak he was over everything that he would allow, let alone pay for a portrait of his third wife, bearing the initials of Anne Boleyn.
If you compare the Chequers ring, the medal portrait of Anne with the Holbein drawings you can see the lips and oval shape of the face look very similar. Anne's lips must have really stood out, because it was prominent in the tiny ring portrait. I also overlayed and analysed the Holbein's with the Weiss gallery portrait of Elizabeth I and the similarities are stunning. I'm pretty sure the Holbeins are the face of Anne Boleyn, I'm firmly in the Starkey/ Grosvenor camp. I hope someone will make a video about it (I'm not going to).
After reading Dr. Emmerson's very interesting comment, I looked up the Mountgarret viscountcy. The first Viscount Mountgarret was Richard Butler, younger brother of James Butler, who contested with Thomas Boleyn, Anne's father for the earldom of Ormond. To settle the dispute, Anne was recalled from France to marry James Butler. The marriage never materialized as Boleyn either wanted the titles for himself and not for a putative grandson, or wished a greater marriage for his daughter. Nidd Hall came into the possession of the Butler family in 1890 when the future 14th viscount inherited it from his great aunt. It was sold away from the family in the 1960s. Given the connection between the Boleyns and the Butlers, it is not hard to see how a portrait of Anne might have ended up at Nidd Hall. Might it not have been presented to James in the course of the marriage negotiations?
That would be a no because it is the Consort necklace, and so she was already Queen. It could have been presented to the Butler family/ Ormond because she was a relative and so the Earl would want to display the relationship even tho the Boleyn/Butler marriage didnt happen. I say it was actually Jane but was painted and shown as Anne.
@@glorialange6446 If that is the consort necklace, you are correct. The detail is pretty murky, and that style of necklace was pretty popular, but even in the not unlikely event it is the consort necklace, given the connection with the Butler family, I am pretty sure that is Anne. Your rationale for the portrait being there is a good one--besides it just doesn't look like Jane to me! 😀
yesss an Art History Mystery 🙏🙏 love those! Going only for looks, bc idk what evidence will be presented and don’t know anything in advance, I’d bet on Anne. It rly doesn’t look like Jane imo, and I couldn’t picture Jane wearing a pendant which could (even if mistakenly) be associated with Anne. It’s true that it doesn’t look like the B patterns portraits, but we can’t be sure that they are an accurate representation of her (although they’re clearly meant to be of her), while Jane’s is undisputedly a contemporary portrait, and by Holbein at that, whom I trust to give us a great likeness of the sitters.
I'm glad you mentioned the degree to which the artist's interpretation and skill effect the image we see, rather than the face she actually had. Even the image on Elizabeth's ring may not have been contemporary and could have been painted from memory long after her death. As a hairdresser, I'm often forced to explain to clients that while it's true that a picture is worth a thousand words, what you see isn't necessarily what you'll get. What I'm able to achieve is MY interpretation of how to cut and style THEIR hair, with THEIR features, using my skill, and the picture as a GUIDE. This can be demonstrated by looking up the various copies or fakes of the famous Mona Lisa. Supposedly, they all depict the same person, but most of them could never be mistaken as the real one. Which is not to say that the "real one" was a photo-facsimile of the real person. Photo realism has rarely been valued in art. Hans Holbein was an accomplished and renowned painter, and yet, Henry felt that the woman in his portrait of Anne of Cleeves was misrepresented, and yet, never held Holbein directly responsible for misleading him. My guess is, most artists of the time depended mainly on the style of the clothing and the setting, to make a representation of a high born lady with a longish nose and face but regular features and dark eyes and hair, and called it Anne Boleyn. They may have had the coin in their pocket at the time.
Thank you HC i’m SO HAPPY that someone finally made a decent video about this Portrait!!!! Very interesting arguments here. I know that it is obviously one of Henry’s consorts considering the jewellery, but (and please don’t hate me) I just don’t see much of Jane in this OR the engraving 😢 I actually do, however, see similarities between the Nidd Hall Portrait and reconstructions of the Moost Happi Medal? But then again of course this is completely subjective 😂 Just goes to show how one person can see one thing, and another person something completely different ! 😂 Hopefully some day we’ll find out more!! Fantastic work HC. Well done, and thanks as always 👏🏻
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR VERY KIND DONATION PATRICK and apologies for my very delayed response, as I was away for the week. No hate at all, I promise. :-) Everyone sees something a little different and that's what makes the debate fun :-)
As an artist, the B portraits are very cleaned up (to use modern parlance, it has heavy filters). The shape of the face, eyes, chin, and mouth in the Nidd Hall portrait are closer to the medal and, especially around the eyes, not like Jane Seymour. I honestly think the Nidd Hall portrait is Anne, but those of us that think so may all be proven wrong at some point :)
Pure guess, but I would say this was Jane Seymour. I would say that the AB was added later. Maybe an art historian could tell if the paint pigments were right or not. Thanks HC. Happy hols. 🙂
I see the hood has longer lappets than Jane Seymour's. Also the heavy lidded eyes resemble the medal reconstruction more. Jane's eyes were blue in her Horenbout portrait not brown. Add to that Dr Emmerson's comment about the necklace being original. My money's on Anne.
Interesting thing about the cross she's wearing in the only confirmed image we have of her (Anne), there's a picture of Catherine of Aragon wearing a very similar cross as a broach (makes total sense, the Tudors loved multipurpose jewelry), and it's even in the style of the consort necklace with floral ouches set with either rubies or diamonds. Maybe another one of the queen's set of jewels? Who knows
Thank you for stating that four-year-old children on up can hold a camera steady. I love it when people acknowledge young children and their capabilities. I also agree that the RUclips channels trying to claim they know what these historical figures would like today are just bogus. I find it interesting that all those videos show historical people looking like models. Most history sources of confirmed people do not in any way look like models, they look like the average person. I love your videos!
I knew you have done several of this type of video, but until you kept referencing others, I didn't realize quite how many! Thank you for the art detective work. I do enjoy these. Thank you for your hard work, and I hope you enjoy your well-earned vacation!
I’m saying Anne Boleyn. There was an ambassador, (can’t remember who, probably Chapuys), who called her a “thin old woman”. (At that point, don’t blame her). Plus, it looks like the maybe other portraits, and the only contemporary, the coin, clinches it for me. Looks just like her. . No way imo Jane Seymore.
I think it's difficult to say. It could be any Tudor era woman and was mis identified as Anne and then made to look like her. Jewelry painted on to make it so. Does it have to be Anne? Is there some reason that it must be? Does it have to be Jane? I'm afraid as of right now with what little is known about the painting, it's hard to say. Fascinating topic. Great video.
Thank you for posting this fascinating study while you're heading out on holiday. I hope you enjoy your time away. This is the first time you've presented an analysis that does not point to one strong conclusion. It can't be a completely unknown woman, because it is clearly supposed to be one of Henry's queens. It's exciting to read Dr. Emmerson's account, posted earlier today, about recent findings concerning the portrait. I hope we'll know more when the results are published.
I actually like some portrait recreations where they blink and look around and smile. It helps me actually feel like I could identify with them on a human level rather than just reading about them in a book or watching a history video on them. Mind you a few people get sloppy and don't move the hair with it so it definitely looks weird. The smiles also get really wide in some of them.
The face of this portrait honestly looks more like Catherine of Aragon to me. She was a lover of the gable hood, and she was the only one to live into her seniority.
A great video that's really got me thinking... I don't think it's Anne, despite what looks like an AB brooch.. maybe if it was, she wore it out of respect for Anne? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part! This is so subjective and has really got the cogs in my brain turning! Thank you for another great video! ❤
I don't think Jane S. would have dared to wear an AB brooch. It would have been poking Henry with a sharp stick. And I don't think she and Anne got on very well in any event.
Considering the sensation that the re-make of the "Shogun" mini-series is currently enjoying, it may be interesting to do a biography of William Adams, the first Englishman who sailed to Japan in 1600. Whether or not your viewers have read the best-selling novel on which the mini-series is based or are even aware of the mini-series, Adams had an interesting life before he sailed to Japan, e.g., fighting the Spanish Armada. Certainly the remainder of his life in Japan was interesting because of his involvement in the upheaval that occurred there. In addition, he lived during the Tudor- Stuart period of England to which your viewers seem especially responsive.
Hello Hc! im going with Jane on this one. seems unlikely to be Anne but then again i suppose not entirely impossible 🤔 i’ve always loved the mystery and debate surrounding this portrait. thank you for bringing this! 🙌🏻 👑
I personally do not believe that the Nidd Hall portrait is of Jane but either Anne or her aunt or her mother perhaps , my reasoning is simple... the narrower neckline of the gown , perhaps suggests a slightly earlier time , or a foreign style of an English fashion i.e a more elegant modification and the same with the lappets of the gable headdress which is a more unusual style (perhaps suggesting a more personal preference?) The lappets are also longer in the medal , Jane's were shorter .. Or perhaps a portrait painted by more locally based artist to hang in one's hostelry or home ( which would have been of lower quality/standard )as an outward show of loyalty ( which too was common) What better way to flatter one's sovereigns? But I feel it is definitely not Jane
Oh, I’ve seen that portrait of Jane Parker/Boleyn and just took at face value that jt was her. Also, I’ve seen those facial reconstructions programs and marvelled at them. Well, that’s one theory shot! Thank you so much. 🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
I’m voting Jane Seymour. I would think an artist could add or take away from an established portrait in order to suit the one he wants to pass off as the “real”’whoever. It is a good mystery, but I the written physical descriptions of Anne seem to differ in this portrait (her eyes and the general liveliness of her features). Thank you for this interesting video. I always look forward to Mondays. Have a great week. ☺️
I have to say that if she was ill with thyroid disease (the rumor of a goiter) this portrait could be her. Hyper-thyroid makes your eyes bug-out because your face thins so much. Some of the other things that were said toward the end of her life, like a bit of paranoia, nervousness, even the quick mood changes. In addition, carrying a child to term would be difficult if not impossible, the more her illness advanced. Other symptoms include anorexia, weight loss, apathy, agitation, cognitive decline. Wasn't she called "that thin old woman" toward the end of her life? We don't think much of illness when looking at old portraits but sometimes they do tell a story. Seeing this portrait, my first thought was hyperthyroid disease. This is what it looks like. If you do a search "Face of uncontrolled hyperthyroidism" it's a shocking match.
I do see resemblance in the Nidd Hall portrait to the Whitehall mural, which obviously depicts Jane, but I also see resemblance to the moost happi medal, at least with the reconstructed versions. But I do agree that the Nidd hall doesn’t resemble many of the B portraits. It would be amazing to have an answer but I suppose the likeliness of that is slim
At an educated guess, I'd say possibly Jane Seymour. There are too many AB portraits out there to compare with, and this doesn't look like any of those. Then again, it could be someone else entirely. Nidd Hall is now an hotel!!!! 🤨
Yeah, but I wish they captured Jane's nose a bit better, or it's because of lightning, as it seems like a later panting, but it just seems to old to be jane at the same time, so, maybe it's an unknown woman. Or just the worst panting of jane seymour.
I think it’s Anne and I wasn’t surprised when the face recognition technology singled this portrait out. I don’t know why some commenters feel the need to be rude about how this lady looks -its well known that Anne wasn’t considered beautiful but that she had grace, wit, intelligence and gaiety and history tells us these are the traits that so attracted the King, not primarily her looks - we can’t judge her personality by this lady’s looks and, if it is Anne and was painted around the time that Chapuy called her ..‘that thin old horse…’ then it stands to reason she’d look less than stunning - probably due to stress, still births and miscarriage.
Genuinely curious as to why she’s loved? Given what her ambition caused to happen to Queen Catherine and how she behaved toward Princess Mary, she hardly strikes someone of my admittedly modern sensibilities as admirable. She was a ruthless woman in a ruthless world and was eventually dealt with ruthlessly. The charges against her were trumped up, but given how the king treated his first wife, she can’t have expected kindness once she had outlived her usefulness to him. She’s a tragic figure, but I’m surprised to learn that this has made her beloved to some.
@@kcbarbo78 She may not have expected kindness when she outlived her usefulness, but I don't think she imagined being executed. Executing one's queen had not been a done thing before Henry had Anne murdered. For me, she is a very interesting, and as you say, tragic figure, but perhaps not a lovable one
It’s Anne Boleyn. The only fully verified engraving of her on a coin and the portrait look alike to me. She must’ve had something, but it sure eludes me what.
I think this was a commissioned portrait that was suppose to depict Anne Boleyn but the artist couldn't copy the B portrait directly so they took a well known portrait of Jane Seymour and just copied the face, hood and necklace, made enough changes so it would be more than likely a good guess at Anne Boleyn's features (eye brows and such) and slapped an AB broach on the front. Otherwise you would probably age real quick if you met your husband while he was being unfaithful to his first wife so you recognized the signs and knew he was being unfaithful to you and plotting to get rid of you.
I assume the ring , is named after the house. ( prime ministers country house) probably belonged to the criwn at some point like Westminster. ( guessing)
Regarding the engraving, just because the clothing and jewelry were similar to Janes means little, many of Henrys wives wore the same thing, especially state jewelry. His source for the engraving might also have been a now lost source that actually was Anne in similar garb to the Holbein Jane mural. We also have to consider that we have so few examples of Anne, that maybe we are "conditioned" to expect the rounder (not gabled) hood and "B necklace" to be Anne and discount anything else because other wives wore different styles as well.
The only way I could believe that was Anne is the thought of all the stress and anxiety she suffered. And it's still hard to believe anyone could age so much in 3 years!!!
I always thought Anne Boleyn wore a French hood, not an English one. That alone would lead me to believe it is not Anne. But I suspect in the face of conflicting data, it is very likely someone tried to create a portrait of Anne but used images of Jane then added the AB pendant to ‘make’ it Anne Boleyn.
Anne also wore the english gable hood to fit in more with the english people, just look at the moost happi medal, she chose to be depicted with the gable hood there😊
I agree, the Nidd portrait does not resemble the "known" images of Anne. The Nidd portrait and the Mural appear more identical. The symbolism depicted in many royal paintings usually escapes me but it was interesting to see the engraving with the changed positions of the hands: one could make the case that she (Anne) is "grasping" the second pearl as meaning the engraving is the "mother of the second child of the King" or Elizabeth. Given this appears more like Jane Seymour, she seems to be grasping the slightly larger pearl meaning the mother of the next King?
Our images today, say a camera phone photo or how people appear on television and movies. Are not accurate. There is a lens distortion of some kind , like the camera adds ten pounds. . ( although im talking about more modern lens and computer issues)
Fascinating, I dont have a theory but any scholarship on this subject is always interesting. There was a picture in (the very wonderful, amazing, you must go there if you can) Parham House in Sussex that was purported to be QE1 when I first went there as a child but when I found a much more recent copy of their guide book was "Unknown lady of the court" and I felt a little sad for her somehow, I expect that sounds crazy Anyway for that reason I feel a bit odd to go one way or another on the identity of the portrait but welcome the discussion whole-heartedly
Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. How are you doing? How is the weather where you are? I'm doing well and so is my cat Benjamin. We are enjoying the weather here in Ontario Canada. Have a great day see you next video 😊
You know, I would LOVE a mini documentary in Boudicca, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Isabella of France, and other neat women from history. If you speak French well enough to consult those records, I'd love to know more about Marquise de Maintenon.
One of those elaborate multi-wavelength scans of the portrait, like they have done on some famous ones like the Mona Lisa, might give some clarification. Is that AB brooch original or added later? Anne was famous for introducing the more French, stylish headdress, a smooth curve rather than the stiff angular gable shape. I would think Anne would have preferred a portrait with her more flattering style of head covering. That’s the first thing that struck me. So I suspect the added brooch is not original. Perhaps it might have been added later, during Elizabeth’s reign, when an Anne Boleyn portrait might have been much more valuable, not to mention safer?
Lots of shade thrown at Royalty Now. Not sure if the shade was meant to be humorous or maybe even a serious critique, but in her defense, she states her work is an artistic endeavor, and is meant for fun. She’s not trying to use them for something as serious as a criminal trial, or submitting them for academic consideration. I would like to think as creators, with a large platform, especially in non-women dominated spaces such as RUclips and History, that we understand how much power a public platform has. In my “ideal” world, perhaps our lack of representation in these areas, would inspire lifting up, and criticisms would be reserved for something that is disinformation, dangerous, serious, hurtful, or humorous. I would like to think you were being cheeky with some friendly banter being thrown to RNS, however, the delivery did not land. It did come across as hypercritical and unkind. I’m sure it’s just a cultural thing, and you never meant to be petty and tear other creators down, right?
We can agree to disagree, but the Niddhall (gabled hood) painting DOES look like an older version of the B pendant (copies) paintings. Narrow pointy chin, complete with the line defining it, same shaped mouth, narrow cheeks, long-ish nose with a small bulb at the end, same shaped eyes, including lines underneath, narrow eyelids, thin eyebrows, and a high forehead. And since science has concluded that the AB was NOT added later, there was no reason for Seymore to wear the pendant of her executed predecessor. Would Henry have even tolerated it if Jane tried?? I doubt it. He would have gone ballistic about it.
This morning Google photos showed me a slideshow of my cousin except one of them was not him and that is after having many photos marked correctly as him.
So interesting but did Anne wear the gable head dress often. I’ve only seen her in the French hood fashion ( which is so flattering I must add) . It does look like portraits I’ve seen of Anne but they all seem so similar anyway. I don’t think Jane would have had any qualms about wearing jewellery of others but , wouldn’t the AB necklace have gone to the mother. If Henry was in a good mood. Great video anyway. Thank you 👍👍🙏👵🇦🇺
Anne wears the gable hood on the "Most Happy" medal. I would be surprised if any of Anne's jewelry was returned to her family--or whether, given her fall, anyone in the family would have been eager to have it. Jane would never have worn the AB necklace; she would not have wanted to wear something so closely identified with Anne. Jane was the anti-Anne.
I don’t know. The engraving certainly seems to be Jane, but the portrait to me looks uncannily like the portrait medal of Anne. Same hood, same necklace, and is it just me or can you see the same three strings of pearls on the medal? And the same sleeves billowing out at the same point into the same shape?
Speaking as a professional artist, I would see all of these images as something bordering on political speech. Imagine painting a woman's features- commenting directly on her beauty- while her husband, the King, a notorious head-chopper, looms over your shoulder. If you're creating the image long after everyone's gone, besides being speculative, your depiction won't be any more subjective and political and influenced by the current political climate than (say) Shakespeare's are. So trying to translate these likenesses into some kind of objective visual truth through our beloved technology is a fool's game, as stated here (but still fun! Unless it's the animated Anne of Cleves. Brrr!). But they are loaded with presumably objective information- hair, coloring, costumes, and props. That's where the good stuff is, information-wise, in my (not-particularly-valuable) opinion.
Hmm. I don't know. I don't think the Nidd Hall portrait particularly resembles any other painted portraits of Anne or Jane. I DO see a resemblence to the Moost Happi medal, but theres only so much detail that can be put into a such a small portrait. I'm more inclined to believe it's Anne, though. The earlier comment by @DrOwenEmmerson is interesting!
It may be Anne, it could be Jane , I think I need a cushion for this fence. Its a wonderful mystery , that once solved will no doubt , open other roads to wander down. Thankyou.
I think there is also a possibility there was some resemblance in bone structure between Jane and Anne, since they were cousins. Anne had remarkable eyes which Jane did not and was brunette but facial shape and noses. The age difference and clothing style would also have made a big difference in person rather than in a portrait.
I'm inclined to think this painting is Anne. But later in life. The B portrait was probably earlier in life, or the artist intentionally made it more flattering.
I don't think the Nidd Hall portrait looks at all like Holbein's Jane Seymour. Specifically, the nose, eyes and face shape seem too different. I agree with you on the misgivings about the engraving's place in the same NH pattern. To me, it looks more like Holbein's Jane Seymour and less like the NH portrait. The nose is very similar and the eyes smaller on both. With the 1534 portrait medallion of Anne, there's a clear resemblance between the face shape, including the forehead proportions. I'm not sure computers can show us anything about the features which we can't see with our eyes when the portrait positions are similar (it'd be useful for seeing if the 'AB' or anything else was added at a later date though). It's more useful with different angles where computers can show how that affects our perception, but here there's not a huge difference in how the sitters are positioned. I've also noticed that portraits of Jane tends to indicate a shorter torso compared to ones claimed to be of Anne, and that difference can also be seen here, I think. Also, perhaps, the clothing colours may tell us something too. I think the engraving shows a patterned or lighter coloured fabric than the black in both the B-pattern portraits and the NH one. And we have some (albeit weak) indications that these preferences are shown in other portraits. It would be interesting to match this up to household inventories for both queens and their fabric orders for dresses. It seems to me like Jane and Anne had very different styles from the little evidence we have. Anyway, great analysis! I now think the NH portrait may well show Anne and I'm going to compare it to Holbein's nightrobe portrait. I'd love to see a video on your thoughts about a potential Anne appearance in Hever's tapestry of the marriage between Mary Tudor and Louis XII.
What if it's a painting of Jane over a painting of Anne ? In an effort to save on materials the painting could have been started as Anne not being able to finish , the aristist reused it to oaint Jane and then realized maybe some thing couldn't be covered up like the AB pin
I would bet on Jane Seymour! The hood is trendy conservative Tudor period and English! We know Anne favored French style during this period! Her neck is thick and not delicate such as Anne's features were described ❤
To me, the initial brooch seems like an addition, being uncentered the way it is, and I think the person looks a bit old for Anne (although her final years were probably stressful) ... but the portrait of Jane seemed to have a bump on her nose bridge that I don't see in the painting in question ... mysterious all around
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It's Anne Boleyn I guess
To me, it definitely looks more like the reconstructed most happy medal image of Anne than any of Jane's portraits.
Dendrochronology was attempted on the three panels on which this portrait was created. Sadly, following a significant shaving back of these panels to incorporate a support cradle, it was determined that there was an insufficient sample to establish a date range of when the timbers were felled. However, a significant amount of technical analysis has since been undertaken and conservators confirmed that the ‘AB’ pendant is indeed part of the original composition and not added later. A much better understanding of the provenance of this portrait is due for publication later this year, and thrillingly, it can be taken back through the Moungarret family to the Butler family/Earls of Ormond. It is looking quite magnificent after conservation.
Thank you for this info. This level of scientific research helps enormously in our understanding of these paintings. Cheers. 🙂
Oh, that makes me so mad, when people just destroy parts of art for convenience’s sake. I’m excited to hear about the provenance, though!
Ah, so it likely IS Anne?
Hi doctor emmerson!
I first read this comment and was fascinated with the information. Then I looked at who wrote the comment and I'm fangirling like a noble's daughter at Henry VIII's court. Hello, Dr. Emmerson! 👋👋👋
I think this could actually depict Anne…
1. The „dent“ next to the eye matches the medal
2. so does the chin
3. you can clearly see her eyebrows, janes are so light that they start to disappear
4. the ab brooch kinda looks legit to me, it‘s not as „simple“ as the b-pendant
5. in the b-portrait painting that shows her hands she doesn‘t wear a wedding ring, so that‘s probably from their courtship, if this painting was painted towards the end of her life then there were quite a few years in between PLUS she was under a lot of stress which doesn‘t necessarily make you age backwards
That is what I think too! I think so many people want to mold her to our modern ideas of beauty, but she was never described as being a great beauty. I think Henry fell for her personality. This looks most like the medal to me.
Agree as soon as I saw this I thought of the most happiest medal also I'd love someone to superimpose A right facing side, Elizabeth portrait over the top of this one to see the difference or similarities ❤
Also, isn’t there a room in the castle with the AB initials that Henry never covered?
I concur. I believe it was copied from the medal and the artist always uses their own style in recreation.
Also, why would Jane were Anne’s initials?
It absolutely looks like the medal, the eyes mouth and chin are very much the same. Jane Seymour had a recessed chin and her eyes are not as heavy lidded, I just don't see it .
Your videos have taught me so much of Tudor history. My husband wanted to watch The Tudors and I sat for a few minutes to watch it with him. I think my husband finally became annoyed when I said, “Well, ACTUALLY,” for the 10th time.
A friend of mine did the same when we tried to watch it together. Why she bothered asking after my reaction to "The White Queen" is a mystery. H
@@michelepurington3227 Love it.
I could be wrong, but why would Jane Seymour wear anything with Anne’s initials even in a portrait, when Henry the eighth went crazy, trying to abolish All of Ann’s initials portraits anything that had to do with her from every residence he had. It makes no sense to me as the control freak he was over everything that he would allow, let alone pay for a portrait of his third wife, bearing the initials of Anne Boleyn.
Presumably added as a later element
that's Jane's nose or the worst portrait of Anne ever painted - ty for another fun video HC
Same...
If you compare the Chequers ring, the medal portrait of Anne with the Holbein drawings you can see the lips and oval shape of the face look very similar. Anne's lips must have really stood out, because it was prominent in the tiny ring portrait. I also overlayed and analysed the Holbein's with the Weiss gallery portrait of Elizabeth I and the similarities are stunning. I'm pretty sure the Holbeins are the face of Anne Boleyn, I'm firmly in the Starkey/ Grosvenor camp. I hope someone will make a video about it (I'm not going to).
I’ve always liked the versions of the paintings which show Henry’s wives smiling broadly showing them had they never met him,
After reading Dr. Emmerson's very interesting comment, I looked up the Mountgarret viscountcy. The first Viscount Mountgarret was Richard Butler, younger brother of James Butler, who contested with Thomas Boleyn, Anne's father for the earldom of Ormond. To settle the dispute, Anne was recalled from France to marry James Butler. The marriage never materialized as Boleyn either wanted the titles for himself and not for a putative grandson, or wished a greater marriage for his daughter. Nidd Hall came into the possession of the Butler family in 1890 when the future 14th viscount inherited it from his great aunt. It was sold away from the family in the 1960s.
Given the connection between the Boleyns and the Butlers, it is not hard to see how a portrait of Anne might have ended up at Nidd Hall. Might it not have been presented to James in the course of the marriage negotiations?
That would be a no because it is the Consort necklace, and so she was already Queen. It could have been presented to the Butler family/ Ormond because she was a relative and so the Earl would want to display the relationship even tho the Boleyn/Butler marriage didnt happen. I say it was actually Jane but was painted and shown as Anne.
@@glorialange6446 If that is the consort necklace, you are correct. The detail is pretty murky, and that style of necklace was pretty popular, but even in the not unlikely event it is the consort necklace, given the connection with the Butler family, I am pretty sure that is Anne. Your rationale for the portrait being there is a good one--besides it just doesn't look like Jane to me! 😀
yesss an Art History Mystery 🙏🙏 love those!
Going only for looks, bc idk what evidence will be presented and don’t know anything in advance, I’d bet on Anne. It rly doesn’t look like Jane imo, and I couldn’t picture Jane wearing a pendant which could (even if mistakenly) be associated with Anne.
It’s true that it doesn’t look like the B patterns portraits, but we can’t be sure that they are an accurate representation of her (although they’re clearly meant to be of her), while Jane’s is undisputedly a contemporary portrait, and by Holbein at that, whom I trust to give us a great likeness of the sitters.
Another super cool super detailed presentation about this Tudor Queen! Thank you thank you thank you!
👍 Thanks for this, HC. I hope you're enjoying your time off. 🙏🏼
I'm glad you mentioned the degree to which the artist's interpretation and skill effect the image we see, rather than the face she actually had. Even the image on Elizabeth's ring may not have been contemporary and could have been painted from memory long after her death. As a hairdresser, I'm often forced to explain to clients that while it's true that a picture is worth a thousand words, what you see isn't necessarily what you'll get. What I'm able to achieve is MY interpretation of how to cut and style THEIR hair, with THEIR features, using my skill, and the picture as a GUIDE. This can be demonstrated by looking up the various copies or fakes of the famous Mona Lisa. Supposedly, they all depict the same person, but most of them could never be mistaken as the real one. Which is not to say that the "real one" was a photo-facsimile of the real person. Photo realism has rarely been valued in art. Hans Holbein was an accomplished and renowned painter, and yet, Henry felt that the woman in his portrait of Anne of Cleeves was misrepresented, and yet, never held Holbein directly responsible for misleading him. My guess is, most artists of the time depended mainly on the style of the clothing and the setting, to make a representation of a high born lady with a longish nose and face but regular features and dark eyes and hair, and called it Anne Boleyn. They may have had the coin in their pocket at the time.
Thank you HC i’m SO HAPPY that someone finally made a decent video about this Portrait!!!!
Very interesting arguments here. I know that it is obviously one of Henry’s consorts considering the jewellery, but (and please don’t hate me) I just don’t see much of Jane in this OR the engraving 😢 I actually do, however, see similarities between the Nidd Hall Portrait and reconstructions of the Moost Happi Medal? But then again of course this is completely subjective 😂 Just goes to show how one person can see one thing, and another person something completely different ! 😂 Hopefully some day we’ll find out more!!
Fantastic work HC. Well done, and thanks as always 👏🏻
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR VERY KIND DONATION PATRICK and apologies for my very delayed response, as I was away for the week. No hate at all, I promise. :-) Everyone sees something a little different and that's what makes the debate fun :-)
As an artist, the B portraits are very cleaned up (to use modern parlance, it has heavy filters). The shape of the face, eyes, chin, and mouth in the Nidd Hall portrait are closer to the medal and, especially around the eyes, not like Jane Seymour. I honestly think the Nidd Hall portrait is Anne, but those of us that think so may all be proven wrong at some point :)
I love Anne Boleyn and thank you for posting!!❤❤
Same, she’s really interesting. I learned quite a lot on this RUclips channel about her!
Pure guess, but I would say this was Jane Seymour. I would say that the AB was added later. Maybe an art historian could tell if the paint pigments were right or not. Thanks HC. Happy hols. 🙂
👍
Scientific investigation has proved the AB was not added later.
I see the hood has longer lappets than Jane Seymour's. Also the heavy lidded eyes resemble the medal reconstruction more. Jane's eyes were blue in her Horenbout portrait not brown. Add to that Dr Emmerson's comment about the necklace being original. My money's on Anne.
Thank you so much for such detailed spoken descriptions. I often watch without glasses or only by “podcast” listening and your details make it easy.
Interesting thing about the cross she's wearing in the only confirmed image we have of her (Anne), there's a picture of Catherine of Aragon wearing a very similar cross as a broach (makes total sense, the Tudors loved multipurpose jewelry), and it's even in the style of the consort necklace with floral ouches set with either rubies or diamonds. Maybe another one of the queen's set of jewels? Who knows
It was probably part of the collection she was forced to hand over when Henry had their marriage annulled.
Jane also wears something similar
Thank you for stating that four-year-old children on up can hold a camera steady. I love it when people acknowledge young children and their capabilities. I also agree that the RUclips channels trying to claim they know what these historical figures would like today are just bogus. I find it interesting that all those videos show historical people looking like models. Most history sources of confirmed people do not in any way look like models, they look like the average person. I love your videos!
Btw, would you consider doing a video on the British Museum sketch sometimes thought of as Anne?
Hi friend !!!
@@DarthDread-oh2ne Hello! Hope you are better
Looks like Anne to me, and paintings of Elizabeth when she was older too.
I knew you have done several of this type of video, but until you kept referencing others, I didn't realize quite how many!
Thank you for the art detective work. I do enjoy these.
Thank you for your hard work, and I hope you enjoy your well-earned vacation!
I ❤ that you post your sources! Love your videos and thank you for all your work.
I adore your channel! Thank you for another fantastic vid! Love from New Orleans ♥️⚜️♥️⚜️♥️
I’m saying Anne Boleyn. There was an ambassador, (can’t remember who, probably Chapuys), who called her a “thin old woman”. (At that point, don’t blame her). Plus, it looks like the maybe other portraits, and the only contemporary, the coin, clinches it for me. Looks just like her. . No way imo Jane Seymore.
I think it's difficult to say. It could be any Tudor era woman and was mis identified as Anne and then made to look like her. Jewelry painted on to make it so. Does it have to be Anne? Is there some reason that it must be? Does it have to be Jane? I'm afraid as of right now with what little is known about the painting, it's hard to say. Fascinating topic. Great video.
Thanks for this. Whether it's Anne or Jane, it's a lovely.
Happy holidays! Hope you manage to find time to relax! 😊
Thank you for posting this fascinating study while you're heading out on holiday. I hope you enjoy your time away. This is the first time you've presented an analysis that does not point to one strong conclusion. It can't be a completely unknown woman, because it is clearly supposed to be one of Henry's queens. It's exciting to read Dr. Emmerson's account, posted earlier today, about recent findings concerning the portrait. I hope we'll know more when the results are published.
12:00 I find that absolutely creepy in my opinion... Watching them look at you and blink their eyes and smile oh my God it's it's freakish
I actually like some portrait recreations where they blink and look around and smile. It helps me actually feel like I could identify with them on a human level rather than just reading about them in a book or watching a history video on them. Mind you a few people get sloppy and don't move the hair with it so it definitely looks weird. The smiles also get really wide in some of them.
The face of this portrait honestly looks more like Catherine of Aragon to me. She was a lover of the gable hood, and she was the only one to live into her seniority.
Anne wears a gable hood in the "Most Happy" medal; and she was mature enough at the end of her life to be this lady.
Too dark to be the fair and gilt-haired Katherine.
Another crackingly good video HC! I reckon it's Anne, because the portrait looks like the Moost Happi medal in my opinion
A great video that's really got me thinking... I don't think it's Anne, despite what looks like an AB brooch.. maybe if it was, she wore it out of respect for Anne? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part! This is so subjective and has really got the cogs in my brain turning! Thank you for another great video! ❤
I don't think Jane S. would have dared to wear an AB brooch. It would have been poking Henry with a sharp stick. And I don't think she and Anne got on very well in any event.
Considering the sensation that the re-make of the "Shogun" mini-series is currently enjoying, it may be interesting to do a biography of William Adams, the first Englishman who sailed to Japan in 1600. Whether or not your viewers have read the best-selling novel on which the mini-series is based or are even aware of the mini-series, Adams had an interesting life before he sailed to Japan, e.g., fighting the Spanish Armada. Certainly the remainder of his life in Japan was interesting because of his involvement in the upheaval that occurred there. In addition, he lived during the Tudor- Stuart period of England to which your viewers seem especially responsive.
Hello Hc! im going with Jane on this one. seems unlikely to be Anne but then again i suppose not entirely impossible 🤔 i’ve always loved the mystery and debate surrounding this portrait. thank you for bringing this! 🙌🏻 👑
Love all of your videos ❤❤❤❤❤
Your research proves your point. Thanks for being so detailed.
History calling I think it looks like Anne Boleyn she looks beautiful and she’s my favourite wife of Henry viii
I personally do not believe that the Nidd Hall portrait is of Jane but either Anne or her aunt or her mother perhaps , my reasoning is simple... the narrower neckline of the gown , perhaps suggests a slightly earlier time , or a foreign style of an English fashion i.e a more elegant modification and the same with the lappets of the gable headdress which is a more unusual style (perhaps suggesting a more personal preference?) The lappets are also longer in the medal , Jane's were shorter .. Or perhaps a portrait painted by more locally based artist to hang in one's hostelry or home ( which would have been of lower quality/standard )as an outward show of loyalty ( which too was common) What better way to flatter one's sovereigns? But I feel it is definitely not Jane
Oh, I’ve seen that portrait of Jane Parker/Boleyn and just took at face value that jt was her. Also, I’ve seen those facial reconstructions programs and marvelled at them. Well, that’s one theory shot! Thank you so much. 🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
Thank you for the video, I like learning about British Royalty History.
Highly recommend the video on the consort necklace and pearls guys!
I’m voting Jane Seymour. I would think an artist could add or take away from an established portrait in order to suit the one he wants to pass off as the “real”’whoever. It is a good mystery, but I the written physical descriptions of Anne seem to differ in this portrait (her eyes and the general liveliness of her features). Thank you for this interesting video. I always look forward to Mondays. Have a great week. ☺️
As a fellow academic, the petty soothes my soul 😂💕🍀✨
Wonderful video and you make a very compelling argument for the subject being Jane.
I have to say that if she was ill with thyroid disease (the rumor of a goiter) this portrait could be her. Hyper-thyroid makes your eyes bug-out because your face thins so much. Some of the other things that were said toward the end of her life, like a bit of paranoia, nervousness, even the quick mood changes. In addition, carrying a child to term would be difficult if not impossible, the more her illness advanced. Other symptoms include anorexia, weight loss, apathy, agitation, cognitive decline. Wasn't she called "that thin old woman" toward the end of her life? We don't think much of illness when looking at old portraits but sometimes they do tell a story. Seeing this portrait, my first thought was hyperthyroid disease. This is what it looks like. If you do a search "Face of uncontrolled hyperthyroidism" it's a shocking match.
I do see resemblance in the Nidd Hall portrait to the Whitehall mural, which obviously depicts Jane, but I also see resemblance to the moost happi medal, at least with the reconstructed versions. But I do agree that the Nidd hall doesn’t resemble many of the B portraits. It would be amazing to have an answer but I suppose the likeliness of that is slim
At an educated guess, I'd say possibly Jane Seymour. There are too many AB portraits out there to compare with, and this doesn't look like any of those. Then again, it could be someone else entirely. Nidd Hall is now an hotel!!!! 🤨
Agreed, Chris. Possibly Jane or an unknown subject. I also share HC's view on mixing portraits with facial recognition. Go easy, young man.
@@stephencarrillo5905 Thanks, junior!!
Yeah, but I wish they captured Jane's nose a bit better, or it's because of lightning, as it seems like a later panting, but it just seems to old to be jane at the same time, so, maybe it's an unknown woman. Or just the worst panting of jane seymour.
Thank you😊
I think it’s Anne and I wasn’t surprised when the face recognition technology singled this portrait out. I don’t know why some commenters feel the need to be rude about how this lady looks -its well known that Anne wasn’t considered beautiful but that she had grace, wit, intelligence and gaiety and history tells us these are the traits that so attracted the King, not primarily her looks - we can’t judge her personality by this lady’s looks and, if it is Anne and was painted around the time that Chapuy called her ..‘that thin old horse…’ then it stands to reason she’d look less than stunning - probably due to stress, still births and miscarriage.
I always thought it was Jane. In every depiction I have ever seen of her, she has that same expression, like she just sucked on a lemon.
So would I if I had to marry Henry VIII 😁
😂😂😂
@@elizabethwoolnough4358 Of course, Henry WAS a lemon.
I don't think it looks like either of them, but I'd have to say it looks more like Anne than Jane.
I wish Anne Boleyn could know how much she's loved, respected & not remembered for the trumped up charges that were pinned on her.
Genuinely curious as to why she’s loved? Given what her ambition caused to happen to Queen Catherine and how she behaved toward Princess Mary, she hardly strikes someone of my admittedly modern sensibilities as admirable. She was a ruthless woman in a ruthless world and was eventually dealt with ruthlessly. The charges against her were trumped up, but given how the king treated his first wife, she can’t have expected kindness once she had outlived her usefulness to him. She’s a tragic figure, but I’m surprised to learn that this has made her beloved to some.
@@kcbarbo78 She may not have expected kindness when she outlived her usefulness, but I don't think she imagined being executed. Executing one's queen had not been a done thing before Henry had Anne murdered. For me, she is a very interesting, and as you say, tragic figure, but perhaps not a lovable one
We shouldn't forget what she did with Catherine of Aragon and Mary Tudor
I know I'm in the minority here; but the tiny confirmed image just doesn't look like the B portraits to me.
It’s Anne Boleyn. The only fully verified engraving of her on a coin and the portrait look alike to me. She must’ve had something, but it sure eludes me what.
I've seen a portrait of Mary Boleyn she kind of looks like the portrait of Mary is there any way to get a picture of them side by side?
This portrait looks more similar to the Holbien portrait of Jane Seymour. Yet, the middle of her broach saids AB. Who knows? 🤷♀️
I’ve always thought this was very, very similar if not identical to her “the moost happi” medal.
I think this was a commissioned portrait that was suppose to depict Anne Boleyn but the artist couldn't copy the B portrait directly so they took a well known portrait of Jane Seymour and just copied the face, hood and necklace, made enough changes so it would be more than likely a good guess at Anne Boleyn's features (eye brows and such) and slapped an AB broach on the front.
Otherwise you would probably age real quick if you met your husband while he was being unfaithful to his first wife so you recognized the signs and knew he was being unfaithful to you and plotting to get rid of you.
I assume the ring , is named after the house. ( prime ministers country house) probably belonged to the criwn at some point like Westminster. ( guessing)
Regarding the engraving, just because the clothing and jewelry were similar to Janes means little, many of Henrys wives wore the same thing, especially state jewelry. His source for the engraving might also have been a now lost source that actually was Anne in similar garb to the Holbein Jane mural. We also have to consider that we have so few examples of Anne, that maybe we are "conditioned" to expect the rounder (not gabled) hood and "B necklace" to be Anne and discount anything else because other wives wore different styles as well.
The only way I could believe that was Anne is the thought of all the stress and anxiety she suffered. And it's still hard to believe anyone could age so much in 3 years!!!
Fun fact.... There isnt a single Tudor hood in existence today, only copies
I always thought Anne Boleyn wore a French hood, not an English one. That alone would lead me to believe it is not Anne. But I suspect in the face of conflicting data, it is very likely someone tried to create a portrait of Anne but used images of Jane then added the AB pendant to ‘make’ it Anne Boleyn.
Anne also wore the english gable hood to fit in more with the english people, just look at the moost happi medal, she chose to be depicted with the gable hood there😊
I agree, the Nidd portrait does not resemble the "known" images of Anne. The Nidd portrait and the Mural appear more identical. The symbolism depicted in many royal paintings usually escapes me but it was interesting to see the engraving with the changed positions of the hands: one could make the case that she (Anne) is "grasping" the second pearl as meaning the engraving is the "mother of the second child of the King" or Elizabeth. Given this appears more like Jane Seymour, she seems to be grasping the slightly larger pearl meaning the mother of the next King?
Our images today, say a camera phone photo or how people appear on television and movies. Are not accurate. There is a lens distortion of some kind , like the camera adds ten pounds. . ( although im talking about more modern lens and computer issues)
❤another great video
Than you
Question: I thought that Anne generally wore a French hood and not an English hood as on the Nedd Hall painting. Has that ever been questioned?
She also wore the gable hood, look at the moost happi medal😊
Fascinating, I dont have a theory but any scholarship on this subject is always interesting. There was a picture in (the very wonderful, amazing, you must go there if you can) Parham House in Sussex that was purported to be QE1 when I first went there as a child but when I found a much more recent copy of their guide book was "Unknown lady of the court" and I felt a little sad for her somehow, I expect that sounds crazy Anyway for that reason I feel a bit odd to go one way or another on the identity of the portrait but welcome the discussion whole-heartedly
Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. How are you doing? How is the weather where you are? I'm doing well and so is my cat Benjamin. We are enjoying the weather here in Ontario Canada. Have a great day see you next video 😊
You know, I would LOVE a mini documentary in Boudicca, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Isabella of France, and other neat women from history.
If you speak French well enough to consult those records, I'd love to know more about Marquise de Maintenon.
I missed the 2015 facial recognition thing
One of those elaborate multi-wavelength scans of the portrait, like they have done on some famous ones like the Mona Lisa, might give some clarification. Is that AB brooch original or added later?
Anne was famous for introducing the more French, stylish headdress, a smooth curve rather than the stiff angular gable shape. I would think Anne would have preferred a portrait with her more flattering style of head covering. That’s the first thing that struck me. So I suspect the added brooch is not original. Perhaps it might have been added later, during Elizabeth’s reign, when an Anne Boleyn portrait might have been much more valuable, not to mention safer?
The brooch has been determined to be original.
If portrait photography was that easy, why did we have Olan Mills ? 😂
Lots of shade thrown at Royalty Now. Not sure if the shade was meant to be humorous or maybe even a serious critique, but in her defense, she states her work is an artistic endeavor, and is meant for fun. She’s not trying to use them for something as serious as a criminal trial, or submitting them for academic consideration. I would like to think as creators, with a large platform, especially in non-women dominated spaces such as RUclips and History, that we understand how much power a public platform has. In my “ideal” world, perhaps our lack of representation in these areas, would inspire lifting up, and criticisms would be reserved for something that is disinformation, dangerous, serious, hurtful, or humorous. I would like to think you were being cheeky with some friendly banter being thrown to RNS, however, the delivery did not land. It did come across as hypercritical and unkind. I’m sure it’s just a cultural thing, and you never meant to be petty and tear other creators down, right?
It didn't come across well to me and I found the comments made in the video unnecessary.
We can agree to disagree, but the Niddhall (gabled hood) painting DOES look like an older version of the B pendant (copies) paintings. Narrow pointy chin, complete with the line defining it, same shaped mouth, narrow cheeks, long-ish nose with a small bulb at the end, same shaped eyes, including lines underneath, narrow eyelids, thin eyebrows, and a high forehead. And since science has concluded that the AB was NOT added later, there was no reason for Seymore to wear the pendant of her executed predecessor. Would Henry have even tolerated it if Jane tried?? I doubt it. He would have gone ballistic about it.
This morning Google photos showed me a slideshow of my cousin except one of them was not him and that is after having many photos marked correctly as him.
For what it's worth, I immediately thought "Jane Seymour" as soon as I laid eyes on the NIDD HALL portrait.
Experts should be able to tell if the "AB" brooch was added later, no?
They looked at it, according to Dr. Emmerson, and found it was original.
So interesting but did Anne wear the gable head dress often. I’ve only seen her in the French hood fashion ( which is so flattering I must add) . It does look like portraits I’ve seen of Anne but they all seem so similar anyway. I don’t think Jane would have had any qualms about wearing jewellery of others but , wouldn’t the AB necklace have gone to the mother. If Henry was in a good mood. Great video anyway. Thank you 👍👍🙏👵🇦🇺
Anne wears the gable hood on the "Most Happy" medal. I would be surprised if any of Anne's jewelry was returned to her family--or whether, given her fall, anyone in the family would have been eager to have it. Jane would never have worn the AB necklace; she would not have wanted to wear something so closely identified with Anne. Jane was the anti-Anne.
I don’t know. The engraving certainly seems to be Jane, but the portrait to me looks uncannily like the portrait medal of Anne. Same hood, same necklace, and is it just me or can you see the same three strings of pearls on the medal? And the same sleeves billowing out at the same point into the same shape?
Have you thought to try How A.I. pictures them?
Another Wham, Bam, Thank you for another good production Mam. That accent🙂
Speaking as a professional artist, I would see all of these images as something bordering on political speech. Imagine painting a woman's features- commenting directly on her beauty- while her husband, the King, a notorious head-chopper, looms over your shoulder. If you're creating the image long after everyone's gone, besides being speculative, your depiction won't be any more subjective and political and influenced by the current political climate than (say) Shakespeare's are. So trying to translate these likenesses into some kind of objective visual truth through our beloved technology is a fool's game, as stated here (but still fun! Unless it's the animated Anne of Cleves. Brrr!). But they are loaded with presumably objective information- hair, coloring, costumes, and props. That's where the good stuff is, information-wise, in my (not-particularly-valuable) opinion.
Thank you.
Hmm. I don't know. I don't think the Nidd Hall portrait particularly resembles any other painted portraits of Anne or Jane. I DO see a resemblence to the Moost Happi medal, but theres only so much detail that can be put into a such a small portrait.
I'm more inclined to believe it's Anne, though. The earlier comment by @DrOwenEmmerson is interesting!
Well, now we need a History Calling and Baumgartner Restoration crossover. Pretty please Bradford art galleries!
It may be Anne, it could be Jane , I think I need a cushion for this fence.
Its a wonderful mystery , that once solved will no doubt , open other roads to wander down. Thankyou.
I think there is also a possibility there was some resemblance in bone structure between Jane and Anne, since they were cousins. Anne had remarkable eyes which Jane did not and was brunette but facial shape and noses. The age difference and clothing style would also have made a big difference in person rather than in a portrait.
I'm inclined to think this painting is Anne. But later in life. The B portrait was probably earlier in life, or the artist intentionally made it more flattering.
The painting looks 92% like my mother, she comes from the Nevilles, Greys and Aquitaine lines.
I don't think the Nidd Hall portrait looks at all like Holbein's Jane Seymour. Specifically, the nose, eyes and face shape seem too different. I agree with you on the misgivings about the engraving's place in the same NH pattern. To me, it looks more like Holbein's Jane Seymour and less like the NH portrait. The nose is very similar and the eyes smaller on both.
With the 1534 portrait medallion of Anne, there's a clear resemblance between the face shape, including the forehead proportions. I'm not sure computers can show us anything about the features which we can't see with our eyes when the portrait positions are similar (it'd be useful for seeing if the 'AB' or anything else was added at a later date though). It's more useful with different angles where computers can show how that affects our perception, but here there's not a huge difference in how the sitters are positioned. I've also noticed that portraits of Jane tends to indicate a shorter torso compared to ones claimed to be of Anne, and that difference can also be seen here, I think.
Also, perhaps, the clothing colours may tell us something too. I think the engraving shows a patterned or lighter coloured fabric than the black in both the B-pattern portraits and the NH one. And we have some (albeit weak) indications that these preferences are shown in other portraits. It would be interesting to match this up to household inventories for both queens and their fabric orders for dresses. It seems to me like Jane and Anne had very different styles from the little evidence we have.
Anyway, great analysis! I now think the NH portrait may well show Anne and I'm going to compare it to Holbein's nightrobe portrait. I'd love to see a video on your thoughts about a potential Anne appearance in Hever's tapestry of the marriage between Mary Tudor and Louis XII.
I think Anne would not have worn an english gable hood. But Jane Seymour did. So, it is Jane, aside from all the other reasons
She wears a gable hood on the "moost happy" medal, though.
i think the medal is Jane too
I would go on the style of the headdress it has to be either Anne or Jane xxx not later
What if it's a painting of Jane over a painting of Anne ? In an effort to save on materials the painting could have been started as Anne not being able to finish , the aristist reused it to oaint Jane and then realized maybe some thing couldn't be covered up like the AB pin
I would bet on Jane Seymour! The hood is trendy conservative Tudor period and English! We know Anne favored French style during this period! Her neck is thick and not delicate such as Anne's features were described ❤
She was depicted similarly with a gable hood on the coronation medal though.
To me, the initial brooch seems like an addition, being uncentered the way it is, and I think the person looks a bit old for Anne (although her final years were probably stressful) ... but the portrait of Jane seemed to have a bump on her nose bridge that I don't see in the painting in question ... mysterious all around