have been thinking about this failure. I think the rotor became doomed when you took the braces out a few weeks back, after one of them flew out. The braces really aren't necessary for when it runs, but our powerful 3-phase motor has such high starting torque, without the braces, the joints got stressed too much just from turning it on - especially with the rotor as tall as it is. And with only a small joint at the top, as soon as that one failed, centrifugal force caused the fin to tip outwards, breaking the bottom joint.
I love how analytical you get with these sorts of problems :D I think what you'll need to do, if you rebuild it from wood, is not have the impeller slots extend all the way to the outside edge. Stop short about an inch or so, and have a shorter tenon on the impeller so the impeller itself can still extend out past the edge of the discs
I was thinking the same. Also, instead of MDF, could plywood be steam-bent to that shape? I suppose that would require making the negative forms and applying some major clamping force though....
***** That's exactly what I did for my first impeller. It worked great and this impeller still exists. but it was very time consuming. With MDF I could skip the steam bending.
Unfortunate acident. But I'm looking forward to see another video of how you make a new dust collector housing (You did a really great job the last time!). Just FYI, you forgot to edit out the name in the title of Adobe Premiere Pro. Not sure if intended or not. Badminton Cutting Boards? Sound like another great video :)
Laminating the blades from several layers of 1.5mm plywood over a former might be a worthwhile exercise. Use epoxy glue. PS: Happy to see you did not get injured.
It would be nice if the impeller could be suported by a bearing on the same axis, at the other face somehow. The spinning impeller holds a LOT of energy. Considering that, it stood up very well. As ever I am really impressed by the quality and scope of your work.
You can probably leave a notch in the fan blade edge and use 2 stopped dados instead of one long one so that the fan blade is "keyed" into the circular plate and physically cannot slide out without spreading the top and bottom plates apart.
For the impeller fins - What about using normal plywood with vertical slits cut in them (probably only ~.25inches deep) to allow for flex, as opposed to MDF?
Dude I really enjoy your videos, I believe you are a skilled woodworker, and a man with a terrific scene of Humor, your timing is quit good, and a editor that's getting better by the week, Thanks for sharing... very much lookin forward to your next release.
Maybe you could try making a different style impeller, rather than one that pushes the air out, you could make one that scoops and slings the air out. Kind of like in car turbochargers.
Hallo Marius, wie zufrieden bist du eigentlich mit dem SYNC Gehörschutz mit Musikeingang den man auf dem Video sieht? Überlege mir auch so einen zuzulegen. Wenn die CNC Fräse etwas macht was man beaufsichtigen sollte und länger dauert ist es sonst immer recht langweilig ;) Gruß Alex
The blades are not held on one end, so that they can tip a little bit and work them lose. D= Ich glaube, dass sich die Blätter bewegen, weil deren Freie/Oberkante nicht wirklich gehalten ist, sondern nur durch den Ring zusammengefasst. Lediglich der Anstellwinkel (und der Papp) steift das etwas aus. Eventuell gibt es auch wechselnde (Druck) Belastungen im Bereich der Auslassöffnung, so dass die etwas vibrieren. Die "Zentrifugalkraft" alleine ist hier sicher nicht die Ursache.
I agree with you. The blades also have to transfer the torque to spin up the ring when the motor is turned on. In doing so they are exposed to a bending and therefore to a shear moment. Imho this would explain the separation of the MDF. The blades were probably attached a bit to steep. So sehe ich das auch. Beim Einschalten des Motors müssen die Blätter auch noch das Drehmoment zum Beschleunigen des Rings übertragen. Dabei entstehen Biege- und somit natürlich auch Scherkräfte in den Blättern, das Schadensbild des Aufspaltens in Schichten würde m.E. dazu passen. Die Blätter standen wohl etwas zu steil.
Hey Marius, I'm guessing one of the videos people have been waiting for is your combo-sander? I'm also waiting for it, but I'll speak up now and say that I love your work and videos, and I will wait as long you need to do it or not do it.
I explained it once in the comments: "That's correct. Actually there is no centrifugal force. But it's easier to explain that way, because everyone knows what is meant, because we all experience that "force" or its effect in real life all the time. But the force of the blower wall, which is pushing against the dust, is called centripetal force and keeps the dust spinning in a circle. And as you said correctly, the dust wants to continue moving straight (Newton's first law). And as the blower wall continuously changes the direction of the dust, it seems like there is another force pushing to the outside, which is what most people (me included before i knew better) experience and call centrifugal force. You could also say that there has to be a force that acts against the centripetal force from the blower wall, because there has to be force equilibrium at all time and so we call that one "centrifugal force". That's my understanding of it. Tell me, if i'm wrong. hmm..wouldn't be too hard to make this into a small video."
hi marius.. very sad to about your impeller.. and cause damage.. here is im trying to make some wooden things thats work with mechanics.. but, as i can see in long term, those wooden stuffs are broken and damaged.. :/
why not buy a 380volt dustcollector? a used one can be bought for €150-250 in the netherlands, i assume they are equally priced in getmany. you have probably spent the same on the old one already..
Hello Markus. Try not to think that you're out of luck... But this could only happen to you😊😜 I joked 👍I really like Your movies, keep it up and do not release😊 I waiting for the new video😊Greetings from Poland😊
I was about to suggest HDPE as a possible material for the impeller as well. I've gathered enough 6 and 10mm HDPE sheets almost for free and plan to try to make my impeller out of it. Problem with HDPE is that you can't really glue it together, but screws are perfect! I would probably go for plastic purpose screws as they have a coarser and more spaced thread. Do you have any suggestions?
Your official "Detective's Certificate" will be in the mail from the Failed Blower's Investigation Tribunal shortly. Also, Air Crash Investigation is gonna offer you an interesting career change opportunity should you get bored with general engineering.
Your assumption that the cause of your problem might be MDF failure is most likely correct. MDF is getting worse by the hour, they just don't put anymore glue into it. That crappy sh%* falls apart just by looking at it. Good work anyway, keep it up. Holger
Schwarzstreifen? Du machst mich traurig... Änder das nächste mal einfach die Maße des Videos, dann werden die Streifen automatisch als Letterboxing eingefügt, sobald man es auf einer anderen Auflösung abspielt. So werden nutzlose (weil schwarze) bereiche des videos berechnet, was nicht nur deine Renderzeit erhöht, sondern auch die Dateigröße anhebt. Mobile Nutzer werden es dir danken. Ansonsten super Video, bin schon gespannt was da kommt.
Those burn marks formed long before the actual damage occurred. I think the culprit were the screws. As for MDF in impellers...no. Never, mainly because MDF isn't an even material, not worth it. You might want to try HDF tho. A lot stronger, i think twice as strong, and better glue (at least).
yes but it is wrong. Another time you doing the same. now If you want do better i just explain you what you must be done: Off course using wooden. Now you must be know that the blades are curved using specific design in function of a lot of parameter. Now you your scope what you are looking for is to increase the suction capabilities without any consideration for efficiency and other aspect. To do that straight blades in right number it is enought becasue you are not able to build pump casing too. Off course balancing it is important but the radial load exist always.
have been thinking about this failure. I think the rotor became doomed when you took the braces out a few weeks back, after one of them flew out. The braces really aren't necessary for when it runs, but our powerful 3-phase motor has such high starting torque, without the braces, the joints got stressed too much just from turning it on - especially with the rotor as tall as it is. And with only a small joint at the top, as soon as that one failed, centrifugal force caused the fin to tip outwards, breaking the bottom joint.
Didn't think about that yet, but that's what probably caused the joints getting weaker and the vibration during use gave them the rest.
I love how analytical you get with these sorts of problems :D
I think what you'll need to do, if you rebuild it from wood, is not have the impeller slots extend all the way to the outside edge. Stop short about an inch or so, and have a shorter tenon on the impeller so the impeller itself can still extend out past the edge of the discs
That is a really good idea, thanks.
Marius Hornberger Welcome dude! Should make sure the impeller vanes don't fling themselves out with centrifugal force.
Or is it centripetal force?
I was thinking the same. Also, instead of MDF, could plywood be steam-bent to that shape? I suppose that would require making the negative forms and applying some major clamping force though....
***** That's exactly what I did for my first impeller. It worked great and this impeller still exists. but it was very time consuming. With MDF I could skip the steam bending.
Maybe even a fairly rigid plastic would work? HDPE or something similar
can't wait to watch it... and the rebuilding of your impeller will be another great video
Unfortunate acident.
But I'm looking forward to see another video of how you make a new dust collector housing (You did a really great job the last time!).
Just FYI, you forgot to edit out the name in the title of Adobe Premiere Pro. Not sure if intended or not.
Badminton Cutting Boards? Sound like another great video :)
what about making an aluminium impeller? you could still use most of your woodworking tools and it would be stronger and lighter.
i guess probably because a wooden one is already made, but just not uploaded yet ^^
Laminating the blades from several layers of 1.5mm plywood over a former might be a worthwhile exercise. Use epoxy glue. PS: Happy to see you did not get injured.
if you use MDF you can mix some wood glue with water and impregnate the MDF. This way it'll also bend easier and stay in the bent form.
Wow. Glad you didn't get hurt. I wondered about how wide it was to use MDF and not some other material for the impeller.
rip... but for us it is sortfof a good thing, because we get more dust collector videos!
It would be nice if the impeller could be suported by a bearing on the same axis, at the other face somehow. The spinning impeller holds a LOT of energy. Considering that, it stood up very well. As ever I am really impressed by the quality and scope of your work.
That's a neat idea, but unfortunately not possible with this blower design. The bearing would block the inlet.
You can probably leave a notch in the fan blade edge and use 2 stopped dados instead of one long one so that the fan blade is "keyed" into the circular plate and physically cannot slide out without spreading the top and bottom plates apart.
For the impeller fins - What about using normal plywood with vertical slits cut in them (probably only ~.25inches deep) to allow for flex, as opposed to MDF?
Dude I really enjoy your videos, I believe you are a skilled woodworker, and a man with a terrific scene of Humor, your timing is quit good, and a editor that's getting better by the week, Thanks for sharing... very much lookin forward to your next release.
Easily the best woodwork you tuber
Ouch! Well at least it will allow you to take lessons learned and add them, and make upgrades to the sizes of the filters. Bonus!
That noise must have startled you. Sorry for the failure. Best of luck with the annual project and the blower rebuild!
Birch ply might have lasted a little longer. Anyway I just tagged you in Instagram image of the impeller at work. Maker goals.
Looking forward to any unlimited tools project. And this coming up video. Good news is I've finally found the charger for my head phones.
Maybe you could try making a different style impeller, rather than one that pushes the air out, you could make one that scoops and slings the air out.
Kind of like in car turbochargers.
I subscribed when you said that advice to youtubers is to not announce future projects, and have several examples to that effect.
Thanks for publishing. Making the failed project buildup is one thing. Making the failed project fail video another.
Good thing the casing was robust enough to contain the fin. Stay safe my friend!
Hallo Marius,
wie zufrieden bist du eigentlich mit dem SYNC Gehörschutz mit Musikeingang den man auf dem Video sieht? Überlege mir auch so einen zuzulegen. Wenn die CNC Fräse etwas macht was man beaufsichtigen sollte und länger dauert ist es sonst immer recht langweilig ;)
Gruß
Alex
+Alexoc11 sehr zufrieden, wenn Musik läuft hört man seine Umwelt fast gar nicht mehr.
Danke für die schnelle Antwort. hab gleich noch einen bestellt. Freue mich schon darauf.
what I like about woodshops is that they build a woodshop out of wood, mainly by themselves.
glad you're not hurt, I wouldn't have thought mdf would fail like that
The blades are not held on one end, so that they can tip a little bit and work them lose.
D= Ich glaube, dass sich die Blätter bewegen, weil deren Freie/Oberkante nicht wirklich gehalten ist, sondern nur durch den Ring zusammengefasst. Lediglich der Anstellwinkel (und der Papp) steift das etwas aus. Eventuell gibt es auch wechselnde (Druck) Belastungen im Bereich der Auslassöffnung, so dass die etwas vibrieren. Die "Zentrifugalkraft" alleine ist hier sicher nicht die Ursache.
I agree with you. The blades also have to transfer the torque to spin up the ring when the motor is turned on. In doing so they are exposed to a bending and therefore to a shear moment. Imho this would explain the separation of the MDF. The blades were probably attached a bit to steep.
So sehe ich das auch. Beim Einschalten des Motors müssen die Blätter auch noch das Drehmoment zum Beschleunigen des Rings übertragen. Dabei entstehen Biege- und somit natürlich auch Scherkräfte in den Blättern, das Schadensbild des Aufspaltens in Schichten würde m.E. dazu passen. Die Blätter standen wohl etwas zu steil.
Looking forward to the new video and rebuild of the blower.
Hey Marius, I'm guessing one of the videos people have been waiting for is your combo-sander? I'm also waiting for it, but I'll speak up now and say that I love your work and videos, and I will wait as long you need to do it or not do it.
Great video i look forward to the special one - thanks!
Sorry for you, but it will for sure lead to new and interesting make a dust collector video's. Can't wait for your new video this weekend 😄
I really enjoy your videos. You are very gifted and talented.
Uh oh. I think the cat's out the bag.... the Adobe Premier project file is called "Badminton Cutting Boards.prproj" ;)
man, you really look at the details :)
lol i saw it too
And there are others, which not only look carfully, but also always use good headphones :-P
I for one would just love a video explaining the centrifugal-force-thing The Correct Way!
I explained it once in the comments:
"That's correct. Actually there is no centrifugal force. But it's easier to explain that way, because everyone knows what is meant, because we all experience that "force" or its effect in real life all the time.
But the force of the blower wall, which is pushing against the dust, is called centripetal force and keeps the dust spinning in a circle.
And as you said correctly, the dust wants to continue moving straight (Newton's first law). And as the blower wall continuously changes the direction of the dust, it seems like there is another force pushing to the outside, which is what most people (me included before i knew better) experience and call centrifugal force.
You could also say that there has to be a force that acts against the centripetal force from the blower wall, because there has to be force equilibrium at all time and so we call that one "centrifugal force".
That's my understanding of it. Tell me, if i'm wrong.
hmm..wouldn't be too hard to make this into a small video."
In my time centrifugal and coriolis forces were ok. It's some new found political correctness that forbids the use of rotating frame of reference.
I totally agree about needing 2 dust collector's I just wish my wife did too.
Scheinkraft for the win.
Ich hoffe du bekommst den Staubsauger so schnell wie möglich wieder hin...Ist ja ein richtiger Totalschaden!!!Tolle Videos... macht Spaß...
Seems like we have the same size cyclone,i made the rest of the blower whit MDF ,top and bottom and the sides are polycarbonate
+1 for mentioning centripetal force / turn-impulse
Great work. Greetings from the UK.
great video. thanks for sharing. good to see the failures as well as the successful projects.
ich freue mich schon auf das video am sonntag.
danke für deine super videos!
looking forward to the 98? cutting boards video
Good job.
Good analysis. You remind me of Sherlock Holmes.
so how many operating hours did it last?
Great video as always.
hi marius.. very sad to about your impeller.. and cause damage.. here is im trying to make some wooden things thats work with mechanics.. but, as i can see in long term, those wooden stuffs are broken and damaged.. :/
Someone need to sponsor you a dust collector
What type of ducting are you using for the dust collector on the ceiling.
+toms place I showed it in this video ruclips.net/video/xsW4J09_RxA/видео.html
why not buy a 380volt dustcollector? a used one can be bought for €150-250 in the netherlands, i assume they are equally priced in getmany. you have probably spent the same on the old one already..
but then I can't build one
I see, you very much enjoy building one!
It also probably wouldn't be as efficient, the style of impeller used here is a lot more effective than material handling ones.
RIP yours and my impeller. Well looks a destruction test for my impeller would be a good video.
Scary blower explosions...
Hello Markus. Try not to think that you're out of luck... But this could only happen to you😊😜 I joked 👍I really like Your movies, keep it up and do not release😊 I waiting for the new video😊Greetings from Poland😊
Hmm Would the inom propeller.
could it be possible to DIY your own hdpe impeller?
I was about to suggest HDPE as a possible material for the impeller as well. I've gathered enough 6 and 10mm HDPE sheets almost for free and plan to try to make my impeller out of it. Problem with HDPE is that you can't really glue it together, but screws are perfect! I would probably go for plastic purpose screws as they have a coarser and more spaced thread. Do you have any suggestions?
What do you meen the beld Sander
Gutes video :) könntest du mir die dimensionen deiner drill driver station sagen wäre echt super net :)
what software do you user for editing?
Adobe Premiere Pro
Obxkcd: www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/123:_Centrifugal_Force
You should investigate plane accidents.
Your official "Detective's Certificate" will be in the mail from the Failed Blower's Investigation Tribunal shortly. Also, Air Crash Investigation is gonna offer you an interesting career change opportunity should you get bored with general engineering.
centrifugal force is real
Your assumption that the cause of your problem might be MDF failure is most likely correct. MDF is getting worse by the hour, they just don't put anymore glue into it. That crappy sh%* falls apart just by looking at it.
Good work anyway, keep it up.
Holger
"Thats the problem right there!"
What was that sound at 5:56?
Hmmm, "somewhen" ( 7:50 ) Never expected a German to introduce me to new English words.
That's not a word? Would "sometime" be correct?
Well, I've never heard anyone say "somewhen." You might find it in some online dictionaries, but in reality, no. Not a word. And yes, use "sometime."
Schwarzstreifen? Du machst mich traurig... Änder das nächste mal einfach die Maße des Videos, dann werden die Streifen automatisch als Letterboxing eingefügt, sobald man es auf einer anderen Auflösung abspielt. So werden nutzlose (weil schwarze) bereiche des videos berechnet, was nicht nur deine Renderzeit erhöht, sondern auch die Dateigröße anhebt. Mobile Nutzer werden es dir danken. Ansonsten super Video, bin schon gespannt was da kommt.
Murio un cachorrito por atribuirle el desprendimiento de la aspa a la fuerza centrifuga que NO EXISTE, Please, solo di INERCIA!
some words would have been said.
perhaps 'eep'
cool video :)
Those burn marks formed long before the actual damage occurred. I think the culprit were the screws. As for MDF in impellers...no. Never, mainly because MDF isn't an even material, not worth it. You might want to try HDF tho. A lot stronger, i think twice as strong, and better glue (at least).
Sabotage
My money is on the plywood manufacturers, they really have it in for MDF.
MDF is toxic, marine plywood is the one true religion ;-)
if you need i can help with new design.
The design is already finished
yes but it is wrong. Another time you doing the same. now If you want do better i just explain you what you must be done: Off course using wooden.
Now you must be know that the blades are curved using specific design in function of a lot of parameter. Now you your scope what you are looking for is to increase the suction capabilities without any consideration for efficiency and other aspect. To do that straight blades in right number it is enought becasue you are not able to build pump casing too. Off course balancing it is important but the radial load exist always.
Andrea Federigi can you publish a link to your design? (Something that I can open in Blender would be helpful.)
I expected it to happen earlier. Make something so crucial from nonstructural material wasn't brightest idea, sorry :)
off course that you brocken. it is completely wrong design
+Andrea Federigi oh thanks that's so helpful...