One fact that's simple to remember: Lady "First Name" means you're the daughter of someone important, Lady "Surname" means you're the wife of someone important
It also specifically means you’re the ELDEST daughter of someone important. Generally it was only the eldest unmarried daughter who was ‘first name surname’ all other daughters were ‘miss surname’ unless being directly introduced, since eldest daughters were the most important since they were next in line on the marriage market
@@emilybarclay8831Uh, no. If all the Miss Bennets were in the same social occasion, the eldest would be called Miss Bennet. The other sisters would be Miss [first name]. If there was only one sister in that setting, she would be Miss Bennet regardless of age. Once Miss Bennet (Jane) marries, she would be called Mrs Bingley. Then Elizabeth would be Miss Bennet. You see this in how Mr Darcy refers to Lizzie as Miss Elizabeth during the ball which was attended by all the Bennet sisters, but otherwise called her Miss Bennet when she visited Rosings.
@@krdiaz8026im not so sure its only that either. I think maybe both of you are right for different situations. Ellie Dashwood made a video about social calls and calling cards, in which the naming conventions used are of the person you're responding to
@@emilybarclay8831 Actually Miss Surname is only the eldest, Miss First Name Surname is for all the younger daughters. When the eldest gets married the next eldest becomes Miss Surname. However, for the daughter of Dukes, Marquesses and Earls, ALL daughters are Lady First Name Surname irrespective of age or birth order. No one can be Lady Surname in this case because it would mean one of them is the wife of a lord rather than the daughter of one.
When I first learned that Lady Catherine had married so far beneath her status, I thought of a couple of things: 1) Nobody close in rank to her wanted to marry her; 2) Her constant referring to "who I am" is an over-compensation for knowing she actually has a negligible rank. It helps put her snobbery into perspective and adds a lot of nuance ot the novel.
Hi. Lady Catherine is of course not a likeable character but it is possible that she married someone of less grand status, albeit still of high rank, because she fell in love with him. Over the centuries lots of daughters of nobles have married people who are not aristocrats. For example, Lady Diana Spencer's two sisters have done so.
@@glendodds3824 Obviously the kinder interpretation works! In that case Lady C. has somehow become a snob and a bully by some other means. My assumption that she was always a "mean girl" is colored by my impressions of her when I was just a student.
Hi. Your assumption that Lady Catherine was always a bully and snob is probably correct. However, although she married a man of lower status, her position in society was not negligible. Marrying a rich country gentleman of ancient family would not have fatally undermined her standing because marriages between the aristocracy and gentry were not rare. For instance, when Pride and Prejudice was published, one of Britain’s richest and grandest aristocrats, the Duke of Northumberland, was married to the daughter of a country gentleman whose family had only recently moved up into the ranks of the gentry, and in 1817 Lady Augusta Henrietta Vane, the 20-year-old daughter of another wealthy aristocrat, married Mr Mark Milbank of Thorp Perrow and Barningham and the couple moved in the highest social circles. Indeed, one of George III’s sons, HRH the Duke of Sussex, was godfather to one of their children, Augustus Sussex Milbank.
I love how Ellie talks about social precedence and Lady Catherine "flexing" while in the background the cats are demonstrating how they are at the top of the social precedence and flexing on us mere mortals. :)
This knowledge makes it even more ironic that Lady Catherine disproves of her nephew marrying "socially lower" than him when she did the exact same thing, but 12 steps more detrimental haha
That's exactly what I was thinking...that at some point she had to be so desperate to marry that the only one who would do it was someone sooooo desperate to marry UP themselves.
I think to Lady Catherine her thought was you either marry for a title or money, love is meaningless. Based off of Mr. Collins boasting she's very well off and women didn't have personal property it was all their husband's money, even her dowry.
It really makes you wonder why both daughters married so far down. Obviously the Darcy's and the De Bourg's were both quite rich families, but still... Although, now that I'm thinking about it, Lady Catherine does say at one point that Darcy's mother was all in favor of him marrying Lady Catherine's daughter. Maybe this was a multi-generational scheme to unite the wealth of the families?
@@ixta Maybe the Fitzwilliam family didn't have much money. Colonel Fitzwilliam was (working?) in the military for money or at least an occupation. Even if his brother would inherit the title and a majority of the money I would this his father would leave him something, unless there wasn't much to leave him if everything should go to the future Earl to maintain the prestige/land. If both sisters didn't have much money but had prestige of being the daughters of an Earl then it would have sense they'd marry wealthy, respectable but untitled men. Of course it's all a guess I have no way of backing it up and I thought of as I started typing.
Yes! Now I get it. She looked for a man that was rich enough to sustain her lifestyle but low enough she could still use her superior title with, therefore, showing us all she truly cared about rank and status.
I'm somewhat fascinated by Anne de Bourgh. She is so shadowed by her mother, she is practically a blank slate. Is she a Lady Catherine in training, snobbish and trying to get her claws into Mr Darcy's money? Is she perfectly pleasant, just waiting for the opportunity to bloom once she escapes her mother's household? Is the meekness all an act, and behind the scenes she is hunting vampires?
I've always had the theory that Lady Catherine's relationship with her daughter was a Munchausen syndrome by proxy: She would reiterate in public about Anne's poor health, but never detailed what was wrong with her. Lady Catherine feeds off lording over people, and who better to enslave emotionally than her own offspring? People raised by toxic narcissists end up having poorer health out of pure neglect and abuse. She's supposedly adamant on Darcy marrying Anne, but only says so to Elisabeth in private. Surely, she would have pushed for a wedding earlier. If not to Darcy, she would have been able to marry her to a good (and opportunistic) match. An incredibly rich wife with poor health? Any man with no qualms would enter that loveless marriage and wait to become a young widow. However, Lady Catherine wants to keep Anne by her side. Before Mr. Collins appeared in her rectory, the only puppet she could control as she pleased was her own daughter. She's never going to marry her off. TL, DR.: Lady Catherine de Bourgh was an emotional vampire that fed off her daughter and anyone near her. There was nothing wrong with her daughter, except for having her Ladyship as mother. Anne is basically 'greyrocking' and waiting for either one of them to die.
Ho ho ho. I like that one. A friend of mine once wrote a fanfic AU about Anne being secretly a secret agent fighting against Napoleon, and she had been trying to get Mary Bennett married off to Mr Collins so that she could live near by and be her intelligence analyst. :-)
@@michaelwoodhams7866 Hi Michael! (Blush) When I look at RUclips comments, I tend to skim over the handles because I don't 'know' anyone on RUclips. Until now! Of course you would like this channel, too. (But also, I think you should post that P&P story on ArchiveOfOurOwn. And the one about hunting vampires - that sounds like the Pride and Prejudice and Zombies story that we all _deserved_ to have.)
JA has such concise but descriptive details about her characters over all her books. I have many times thought or said aloud "that sounds just like ...(insert someone living today)"!
I used to have a boss who used her maiden name at work but her husband was a "Sir" so she had the right to be called "Lady (husband's name). Someone once asked her if she ever used her title and she replied "only to get a table in restaurant" which I think is pretty cool. I still use her as a point of reference when dealing with snobs since she insisted on being addressed by her first name and was one of the least hierarchical people I have ever known.
Hi. My father was a jockey and often rode horses for a baronet, the late Sir Henry Grattan-Bellew, who was very friendly and down-to-earth. Moreover, although he never mentioned the fact to me, Henry's maternal grandmother was a daughter of the 7th Earl of Granard.
I always wonder if Lady Catherine's father was experiencing financial difficulties, because they married untitled gentlemen, and she talked about how she never had the opportunity to learn music...
@@thebuttermilkyway687 it wasn't uncommon for peers to be up to their necks in debt. the upper class was obsessed with buying and gambling, and the fact that peers couldn't be arrested was an incentive to keep spending.
@@giovana4121 It would explain why there was no money to give Colonel Fitzwilliam. If families could save money separate from the entail to give daughters as a dowry, they could also give money to sons.
Very likely. It was the 'old blood plus new money' dynamic, I think. I mean yes Lady Catherine states they are old families, but their wealth may have been relatively new.
If Sir Lewis was lower presidence than Lady Catherine, then she must have married Sir Lewis because he had a lot of money. I can't see Lady Catherine marrying anyone without a fortune, unless it was for a more noble title. My guess is Lady Catherine wanted Darcy to marry Anne to consolidate both fortunes. Once Darcy marries Lizzy, would Lady Catherine try to rope C. Fitzwilliam into marrying Anne, to at least keep the fortune in the family? Anne seems like she would struggle to find a good husband, because she is "sickly" and probably hard to otherwise marry off because of it. C. Fitzwilliam is looking for a rich bride, Anne needs a husband... Though I wonder if Anne might become less sickly out from under Lady Catherine's thumb.
I was always wondering about that last part you've mentioned: How much of Anne's "sickeness" was just her mother's overbearing influence. Although Lizzy describes her as having sickly constitution and little conversation. I can't help to think, that it was Lady Catherine, who didn't allow her daughter to go outside for a healthy walk, or spend time with her neighbors and to actually talk to people. What a loss.
I always have thought it was more calculated than that - perhaps she couldn’t get an earl, so purposely married a wealthy commoner rather than a lower level noble specifically because of being able to keep her rank?
Ellie - A word about cousins, from a genealogist (me): 1) If you share a parent, then you are siblings. 2) If you share a grandparent, then you are first cousins. 2) If you share a great grandparent, then you are second cousins, and so forth. 3) A child of your first cousin is your first cousin once removed (i.e., one generation apart). 4) A grandchild of your first cousin is your first cousin twice removed, and so forth. Almost nobody knows this any more, because in today's mobile and fractured society, so many people don't know anything about their extended family. At that time, though, most people knew, or knew about, these collateral relatives. On a related note, in genealogy your great great grandparents are known as your "Sweet Sixteen", because there are 16 of them. They are the grandparents of your grandparents, and in most cohesive families are the furthest ancestors within living memory, i.e., your grandparents remember their grandparents and can tell you about them. Hope that this helps.
I think ED's content is very informative but her delivery is what really sells it for me. I have watched other creators discuss Austen and other classic books and sometimes the delivery is boring. They are essentially narration over a PowerPoint presentation. Maybe seeing ED's face, like typical creators, sets a better tone, too.
I'm not even a fan of Austen but I saw a video that intrigued me and I loved Ellie's presentation. The next thing I know, I learned more about Austen and regency society than I ever wanted to know.
I'm peruvian, and this is the first English channel that I really love because I started to read Jane Austen book's since I was a child. Now, I can practice my English with your videos. Thanks for all, I really love your channel! You're awesome💕
Aw! Thank you!!! That is so cool that you’re from Peru! 💕 And you write English so well. 👍🏻 Thanks so much for being here and welcome to the channel!!!
On the subject of cousins marrying in Jane Austen, keep in mind that Fanny and Edmund in Mansfield Park were first cousins. Their mothers were sisters.
This whole title thing reminds me of a story that became a family joke. My father, Eli Arbel had a doctorate in physics (electronics, to be exact). He never used his title unless for a good reason (e.g. when he joined the struggle to free the prisoners of Zion, and his title opened doors for him). Once a friend of mine needed help in Math, I asked my father and he agreed to tutor her. Before their first meeting, she asked me: "What should I call him, Dr. Arbel or Professor Arbel?" I answered, "Call him Eli".
The "Lady First Name" bit was very interesting because I recently read Austen's Lady Susan and the other people's reactions to Lady Susan's antics make much more sense knowing that she was by far the highest ranking person in the story, even though it must have been a courtesy title.
I definitely get the feeling that, when Sir Lewis proposed to Lady Catherine, she was probably thinking all about how marrying him would let her keep her fancy title, and might’ve refused him if it meant losing that title.
But that title was always hers, no matter who she married. If she had married Darcy's father, she would have been Lady Catherine Darcy. My theory; he was the only titled gentleman who offered for her. Given how proud and snobbish she is, I believe she would have preferred someone of her father's rank or higher.
Hi. As you probably know, Lady Catherine was referring to the fact that if Darcy married Elizabeth he would have Lydia and Whickham as relatives: "And is such a girl to be my nephew’s sister. Is her husband, is the son of his late father’s steward, to be his brother? Heaven and earth!-of what are you thinking? Are the shades” . . . . etc.
An interesting modern parallel is with the current Royal family, technically Catherine the Duchess of Cambridge is not "Princess Catherine", she is "Princess William", because she married into royalty, whereas her daughter, Charlotte is called "Princess Charlotte" because she was born a princess.
No she is HRH Princess Charlotte of Cambridge . “The” in front of the prince or princess is reserved for children of the monarch. Once HRH The Duke of Cambridge becomes HRH The Prince of Wales, Princess Charlotte will become HRH Princess Charlotte of Wales and The Duchess of Cambridge will become HRH The Princess of Wales. Once Prince William becomes King, he would be HM The King, the Duchess would HM The Queen, and Princess Charlotte would become HRH The Princess Charlotte (depending on when HRH The Princess Royal passes away, Prince William (who would then be King) could give Princess Charlotte the title of Princess Royal which is reserved for the eldest daughter of the monarch, there can’t be two Princess Royals so she would have to wait until Princess Anne died)
The English and their social pecking order with their plethora of titles and distinctions are just insane - it's like some kind of super nerdy boardgame. And of course, I would keep my title. 😉😄
After your video where are you said about the EDS and burnout I was worried. Because I have EDS myself and I also have coeliac disease and post sepsis syndrome. But because of that I understand the whole burnout thing way too easily
Oh no! I hope you're doing well right now. 💕 It's so dumb how health problems can pop up and try to ruin everything. We should probably both try to take it easier on ourselves. Admittedly, that is so much easier said than done. 😭
The Spanish subtitles are such a blessing, one of my best friends is a hardcore Jane Austen fan but she only speaks Spanish. She's gonna love your content.
Don't worry Idk if you saw my comment on your video, but I also have EDS (and all the lovely complexities that come with it). If you ever need a hand with Spanish subtitles let me know and I will be happy to help out. From one Zebra to another one 💖
Given Sir Lewis De Bourgh's property wasn't entailed to me it seems more likely he was a knight. If he was a Baronet it seems much more likely that he would pass the title and the property together to whichever relative was next in line (unless, as you say, he was the last surviving male heir and the title died with him).
Imagine your first RUclips comment ever is literally just talking about how absolutely shook you were when you realized Ellie was short for Electra PS. Love your content! I listen to it while I’m lashing and it makes me feel so ~fancy~
Aw! Thanks so much for your super fancy support! 😃✨ Also, This is how I bring up engagement on my channel, revealing shocking facts like Ellie being short for Electra. 😂😂😂 Thanks so much for your comment!
@@EllieDashwood. Well, the combination of Lady with Electra is so utterly sub zere cool. I mean, that deserves to be held as a title, at least trough out life, so stay healthy Lady Electra❣️😁
Social precedence can still matter in some societies. My mother was essentially disowned for marrying my father. She was from a cadet branch of the Nikaido clan so her birth certificate gave her class as bushi. It was a big deal to her that she was only six generations from a Nikaido girl marrying an imperial prince. And my father came from a respectable poor farming family from Tennessee that had lived in the county since before the civil war. So she never went back to Japan because she wouldn’t go without her husband
I learned about the difference between “Lady First Name” versus “Lady Last Name” from this video. Quite fascinating, all the nuances of titles. I just recently learned what a baronet was, it was so confusing at first due to the similarly named peerage title of Baron. But this video reiterates what I heard a while ago and what was a difficult concept for me to grasp at first. It is that because Diana (Princess of Wales) was the daughter of an Earl, technically her courtesy title is that of Lady Diana. In vernacular language, many refer to her as Princess Di, although it is not quite correct , in regards to titles. I heard this in another video, but she’s a princess but she’s not Princess (as in the title) like how Princess Anne and Princess Charlotte are. I’m still a little bit trying to articulate this difference, but I think I understand a bit better now!
Hi. Yes, it is a complex subject. Moreover, as you note baronets are not members of the peerage. Consequently, they are sometimes dismissed as insignificant but people often forget that baronets mothers were sometimes the daughters of dukes etc. For, instance, the mother of Sir William Lowther, 3rd baronet, was a daughter of the Duke of Devonshire one of the grandest aristocrats in Britain. Moreover, other ducal family also have family ties with members of the baronetage, including the Dukes of Argyll, Northumberland and Roxburghe. Indeed, it is safe to say that every old noble family is related to baronets.
Yes as you noted, it is incorrect to refer to the wives of the princes as Princess Diana or Princess Kate for instance. Typically Prince or Princess “first name” are children of the monarch or royals. When a wife marries a prince, she doesn’t even become a Princess necessarily (unless she marries the Prince of Wales in which case her title does become Princess of Wales). For instance, when Prince William was HRH The Duke of Cambridge, his wife Catherine did not become Princess but was styled HRH Duchess of Cambridge. Yes she was a Royal Highness but not a Princess. Even now, she’s not Princess Kate but generically HRH The Princess of Wales.
With Anne and Catherine marrying commoners and Colonel Fitzwilliam hemming about money, we need to suspect that the earldom was a bit down at heel. That’s why she so fiercely defends position-she’s a little sensitive. Also, even if Sir Lewis was a baronet, that originated as a purchased designation under James I (to avoid calling Parliament), which makes Sir Elliot’s snobbery so funny: as the 5th baronet, the origin was placed around the time of Charles I most likely, when that “title” was even more heavily for sale. Additionally, Lady Catherine’s estate being both unentailed and a “Park” instead of a singular estate name (e.g. Longbourne or Pemberly) smacks a bit of wealth made in trade or in the colonies, another reason for her to be so insecure.
Lady Electra Dashwood-what a SUPER fancy name and title. I so enjoy all your posts, Lady Electra. FYI, there are EXTRA super fancy British titles that do not die without a male son or must move to a jumped-up cousin like Mr Collins. When John Churchill, the first Duke of Marlborough, died, his daughter Henrietta became the 2nd Duchess of Marlborough. Henrietta’s son died before she did, and the title went to the son of Henrietta’s sister, Anne: Charles Spencer, 3rd Duke of Marlborough. Two generations later, the family name became Spencer-Churchill, well, reasons. More recently, when Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma, was killed, his title went to his older daughter, who had been Lady Patricia Mountbatten, then Lady Patricia Brabourne, then became the 2nd Countess Mountbatten of Burma. When she died in 2017, her eldest son, Norton, became the 3rd Earl Mountbatten of Burma. Also FYI, you can always look up Wikipedia for: the ‘list of peerages inherited by women’-interesting stuff!
I firmly recall from the Lord Peter Wimsey novels (totally different era, yes), that Lord Peter had a ceremonial title as the younger son of a duke. When he married dear Harriet Vane, someone calls her Lady Peter, not Lady Harriet or Lady Wimsey, and Harriet is impressed because she knows that form of address. On looking up forms of address on Wikipedia (that revered font of wisdom) I find this is correct for the wife of a duke’s younger son.
All your videos are so wonderful and informative! This one in particular made me wonder about Persuasion’s Dowager Viscountess Lady Dalrymple and her daughter Miss Carteret, their wealth, status and names. Persuasion is my favorite Austen book after Pride and Prejudice, and I loved the breakdown you did in your video on entailments, as I feel it illuminated both those books in a whole new light! Thank you for all you do, and keep taking care of yourself!
So happy the algorithm recommended this video. When Austen talks about rank or money, I'm clueless, just understnad that some are higher/richer and some lower/less rich. Now all is a bit clearer. Loving your videos, all the way from Mexico City!!!
Ginger Lane. Hi. During your research you will find that some baronets married the daughters of dukes, marquesses and earls etc and that the daughters of baronets sometimes married high ranking aristocrats. For example, one daughter of Sir Lionel Tollemache, 3rd baronet. became the tenth Countess of Argyll and ended her days as the first Duchess of Argyll, whereas one of her sisters became the 16th Countess of Sutherland.
@Jonathan Parks Sir Walter Elliot was of course a pompous fool. However, Dr Cox's analysis of baronets gives the impression that they were small fry and that is incorrect.
They actually did mind their business the day I shot this! Usually their main goal is to get between me and the camera and purr into the microphone. 😂🐈⬛😂🐈😂
Very interesting! I'd like to learn more about the "untitled but ancient" family lines. One book I read about this ages ago mentioned that even though Darcy is not titled, everyone understands that he comes from an ancient line, which is partly due to the fact that he has a French (D'arcy) name. Sorry I can't remember all the specifics about it, I don't have the book with me currently.
Hi. Most landed families are untitled and many of them have owned their estates for hundreds of years and are related through marriage to the aristocracy.
Jane uses this situation a lot. She said the same about the Woodhouse family in Emma. Ancient distinguished family that lived in their land for a long time.
It's interesting that both sisters Lady Anne and Lady Catherine Fitzwilliam married beneath them. ("Married down.") Yet, Lady Catherine DB is extremely class and status conscious in the novel. You'd think she'd want her daughter to marry someone with a title, which Darcy didn't have. I hope you are feeling well. Thank you for continuing to provide your awesome videos for us!
I think there've been videos talking about this, but the time period this takes place in and the world Jane Austen grew up in were slowly moving away from the idea of titles being where power comes from. Money was becoming more and more important, and while titles were respectable, titles did not guarantee you could keep your wealthy way of life. Lady Catherine strikes me as someone that obviously holds to the old ways (touts her title and noble lineage all over the place) but has been forced to admit that money's truly where its at. It hasn't been confirmed, but I have a feeling that the Earl's side of the family, including Colonel Fitzwilliam, probably aren't as wealthy as the Darcy's of Pemberley. She might love her titles, but she's shrewd and knows which way the wind's blowing.
I could even see this being a case of the two sisters debating between title or money as being the better marriage choice. Since their father had a son, who they married technically mattered little. They would still want to stay within a certain level of society, but they could be more choosy. I think Lady Catherine believed in bloodlines and nobility and all that while Lady Anne was more about love (and money lol.) Lady Catherine maybe tried to find someone of a higher rank, but they either weren't any available at the time (since there weren't nearly as many peerage as some novels woukd make you think) or, in a take I think is particularly hilarious, none of them would have Lady Catherine because she was obnoxious. Lol. Lady Anne, instead, didn't look within the peerage at all, and instead settled upon the Darcy's, an exorbitantly wealthy family of great repute, but no title. Lady Catherine was forced to settle for a baronet (far, far beneath her but still technically titled,) and one that wasn't quite as wealthy as Lady Anne's husband. She saw Lady Anne's lifestyle, saw how her son and daughter got to grow up, and compared it to her own life and her only daughter, who was sickly and woukd require someone to care for her. With the choice to be made between marrying her into the Earl side of the family, which would give her daughter a respectable title but less money, and the Darcy side, with no title but lots and LOTS of money and comfort for her fragile daughter, she knew which alliance she needed to forge. Her daughter's comfortability mattered more than a title.
Ellie, I really love your videos! I was wondering the other day how the Regency Era houses really were, on the inside. Where did they go to the bathroom in Pemberly? 😂 Just something that haunts me. Would be interesting to see you explaining it in a video!
Chamber pot. And stately homes were the last to adopt plumbing/ flushing toilets. Mostly because with the army of servants to clean up after them they did not see the point of ripping up walls. You might find this interesting: ruclips.net/video/NvdWc4WcYXA/видео.html
Great video. I wish we had gotten a scene where someone called Lady Catherine out for marrying down after all her talk of marrying right. Although I like to think that was the best she could. All other titled and untitled men fleeing from her after meeting her.
Well, but her argument was technically more about wealth. Elizabeth was the same STATUS as Darcy; Lady Catherine's problem was she wasn't rich. She and her sister hadn't 'married down' since their husbands were WEALTHY gentry - basically well-off gentry and poverty-stricken nobility were the same social circle. Marrying UP for them would have required a wealthier noble or one of a higher rank than earl. Marrying down would have been POOR gentry (like Elizabeth) or shock horror, TRADESMEN!
I wondered the same thing! This is the first time I've heard her mention the name Electra, so maybe Ellie is a nickname, but I wasn't sure if Dashwood was her real last name. I always assumed the channel was a cute play on Elinor Dashwood. :)
According to some of her other content, yes, Dashwood is her real last name. I did not know until today, however, that Ellie was short for Electra. Super cool name! Electra Dashwood: almost like Austen meets futuristic super hero 🤩
Whether I kept my title would depend, I suppose, on why I married my husband. If it was for practical reasons (money, position etc.), then I would keep it. But if I really loved and respected my husband, then I would take his status as my own as a form of solidarity and partnership. Another good video, Ellie. 👍
In the super hierarchical world of the Regency, Sir Lewis de Bourgh gained some status by marrying Lady Catherine, so it was in the best interest of the partnership's combined social standing for her to keep her title.
As the daughter of an earl Lady Catherine was always entitled to be referred to as Lady Catherine. If she had married a farm labourer it would have made no difference. She would not have become Mrs Yokel.
Same goes in Downton Abbey when Lady Mary Crawley, daughter of the earl of Grantham marries Henry Talbot, untitled member of the younger branch of a high ranking family. Lady Mary is refered to as Lady Mary Talbot and her husband as Mr Henry Talbot. I do not think it is a matter of choice that she chose to keep her "title", it is a matter of tradition. Calling herself Mrs Talbot would have been a strong statement on her part, like rejecting her background and family. As for Lady Catherine De Bourgh, she automatically kept her "title" when marrying Sir Lewis, I don't think she could have gone and style herself Lady De Bourgh even if she felt strongly like making a statement about rejecting her background.
Loved the cats and the tease at the end. Precedence became very important in early Australian colonial society with so many people battling for position with obscure claims to position.
I’m very interested in this topic, because I have been working on a semi-historical novel, inspired by some of my ancestors in the early half of the 18th century- who came from Ireland to Australia I believe it went something along the lines of; colonial government officials of high ranks military high ranks wealthy landowners - usually free settlers, or retired officials/ military clergy of high ranks government officials of middle ranks high ranked professionals (doctors, lawyers & the like) middle rung landowners - could be free settlers, or freed convicts who’d long established themselves military middle ranks clergy middle ranks middle ranked professionals modest landowners lower ranked government officials lower-ranked professionals lower ranked clergy Skilled artisans (like carpenters & such) common (not poor) landowners poorer landowners (who might well have done other work, to supplement their income) lower ranked military Artisans/ apprentices tenant farmers (people who did not own their own land) unskilled labourers convicts Freed convicts could be part (in many cases, a large part) of several of the lower, & lower half of the middling society ranks- depending on their pre-transportation skills (a convicted forger later became Colonial Postmaster, I believe); they _could_ rise quite high- & depending on things like, how long they had been established with their ticket-of-leave, if they had developed a relationship with the colonial government (as some of the early freed convicts did), & if they developed land. In the early decades of the colony, several convicts were incentivised with land plots- to encourage productivity. I still have a lot of research to do....
A bit of a rabbit trail, but I've always imagined that Mr. Collins (and only Mr. Collins) pronounces Lady Catherine's name as elaborately and as French as he possibly can.
Casting Dame Judy Dench as Lady Catherine in 2005 returns a little bit of that flex to us as a modern audience, I think. There's a certain amount of excitement and awe built in with such a major actor.
Ellie Dashwood, my very favourite commentator on all things Austen-related, forgive me if I made a comment like this after another video... One thing I find jarring about many Jane Austen inspired fiction - too many Lords! Decades ago, when I was a student, I tapped my University's library to read about this period, because my parents and I were fans of nautical fiction, like CS Forester's Horatio Hornblower. One of those books had an excellent chapter on the value of money, back then. It also compared the English nobility with the French nobility, during the Scarlet Pimpernel period. It said that, in the french system, all the children of a French noble could consider themselves part of the French nobility, with the result that a full 4 percent of the French population could claim nobility. In contrast, it said, just prior to the French revolution, there were only 92 individuals entitled to sit in the House of Lords. The size of the House of Lords was expanded, during the next couple of decades, because it was wartime. Nelson and Wellington made it into the House of Lords to reward them for winning a heroic victory. But lots of other individuals made it into the House of Lords as part of a quid pro quo. They were rewarded for a political favour. They made the 19th century equivalent of a political donation. Or they did some other kind of favour. Jane Austen dropped no hints that Fitzwilliam Darcy took an active role in politics, so he would be unlikely to be rewarded with a peerage. As the largest landowner in Derbyshire he would not only control multiple valuable livings, he likely controlled at least one rotten borough - making a Member of Parliament owe their career to him. When QE2 was crowned there were over two dozen non-Royal Dukes. But when the Duke of Wellington became a Duke, there were eight other Dukes more senior than he was. Dukes were very uncommon. Wellington was still a handsome guy, still pursued by groupies. But how many of the other Dukes would have been older and less handsome than Wellington? In my last paragraph I will return to what this book said about the value of money. It spoke about the life of an itinerant rural worker. Days they worked, it said they traditionally earned a shilling a day. They would work from Dawn to Dusk, sleep in their employer's barn, and could expect excellent farm fresh food, where they could consume 4,000 or more Calories. The book said one of these workers could look forward to something like 100 days of employment a year, at planting, at harvest, and a couple of other periods of the year when a tenant farmer, or gentries own farms, needed more workers than their full-time staff. 100 shillings? That is 5 pounds. 5 pounds per year. What would these farm workers do the other 265 days of the year? The book said, but I don't remember. Poorhouse? Begging? Sell hand-made knick-knacks they carved? Weave baskets? I can't recall. But a lot of JAFF authors have an unrealistic idea of the value of money, back then. Cheers!
That’s so interesting! 🧐 I know one thing, I’m glad I don’t have to sleep in anyone’s barn for a shilling a day. 😂 And good point about the size of the peerage, it was extremely small compared to other European nations. The English nobility really was an exclusive set.
Prior to enclosures, labourers would have rights of forage and pasturing on the common ground of the parish. Which would makes a super interesting video actually, because it's not obvious to casual modern readers what 'enclosing' means, and it was a big driver of social change in Austen's period. Also, I find it pretty funny in Emma that Mr Knightley is framed as this really old fashioned, Old England kind of guy, when he's obviously up to his neck in enclosing the parish and joining in the Great Agricultural Revolution. (All the talk about turnips and moving rights of way and gypsies camping on the road.) That was super interesting about the comparative size of the aristocracy!
Part 2 Labourers who belonged to a parish could also ask for relief under the Poor Laws. While this *could* be accomodations in the local House of Industry, it could also be wage top ups, subsidies during the off-season, or finding someone work. (There's another throw away line in Emma about Mr Elton having to go arrange Poor Relief for someone who's dad is sick.) But again, this system was breaking down. Poor Houses we're originally supposed to be the last resort but by I think 1830s there was this philosophical shift to 'So many poor people, we must incarcerate them!!' and Oliver Twist style work houses started being built.
@@glendodds3824 Maybe I should go back and check. I thought Charlotte Lucas said he owned "half of Derbyshire". Do you think I took that too literally? Wouldn't it imply he owned more than all the other landowners?
An excellent explanation of how this system works! E.g. my sister was social secretary to Lady Mary Baring, whose husband was Sir Evelyn Baring (knight). Lady Mary was the daughter of Earl Grey (related to Earl Grey tea). Sir Evelyn was elevated to Baron but his wife continued to be Lady Mary…😀
Ellie this was just excellent!! Superb analysis and presentation. I can only imagine how much research had to go into that one video. You make it all seem so effortless but I know that it cannot possibly be so. So a simple but heartfelt thank you is the very least I can do - 🤗🤗
Have loved your commentary ever since I discovered your channel. This video on Lady D' Bourgh was exceptional. But the kitties! Just loved their cameos.
Another clue is that everyone refers to her as "Her/Your Ladyship". It's a different status, one of blood nobility. Like Lady Susan who married into it. Lady Lucas never gets called that, because she's just a knight's wife.
If you ever are in London, I would 100% advise run to the Pride and Prejudice* (*sort of) show on West End. It is SO good and enjoyable. I liked it even more than The Phantom of the Opera I went to the previous day. And I'm a huge PotO fan so that's telling :)
LOVE your videos! Thank you for the hard work and research. Also, I love how your videos are super-informative without being stodgy. 💗 So, let's say Lady Anne's brother (the Earl) passes and both his sons pass without male heirs. Would Darcy be in line to inherit his uncle's title or would they delve deeper into the Fitzwilliam line - perhaps through the Earl's father's line? - to dredge up a far-distant relation to inherit? Thank you and take the best care of yourself! P.S. OMG, what a kick in the pants it would be to Lady Catherine if Elizabeth Bennet were to outrank her! 🤣
Can't happen. Titles don't pass through women (at the time; some do now but this is a modern change). The title can't go through his mother to him. If no male heirs inherit the title, it goes extinct (reverts to the Crown, which granted it to begin with centuries ago, and could grant it in a "new creation" to an entirely different person). IN THEORY, though, if it went extinct in Darcy's generation, the monarch COULD (probably for some amazingly important reason, like the monarch just really didn't want the title to die and wanted to reward the family for some big reason, such as saving the country from invasion, or something like that) re-grant it in a new creation to a male in a branch of the family that came from the female line. That is, Darcy or someone like him. There is absolutely nothing in the novel at least, to make us think this would be at all likely.
I really enjoy your channel! It's interesting how the rules of succession differ between countries. I was reading about the German nobility (which was banned in 1919). They still claim their titles even though, technically, they lost them and are commoners now just like the rest of us. But, their rules of succession were quite different from England's when they existed.
So much new information to take in after watching this video! I love that Lady Katherine was secretly flexing her rank on us the whole time and we never realized it.
I really love listening to you while I spin or knit. Thanks for clearing this up! I had vaguely noticed the difference, but not enough to ever look it up and this was perfect.
Hi Ellie! I'm a great fan of Pride and Prejudice and I love and appreciate work which you put on making a lot things from Austen's world much clearer. I have learned a lot from your films and I understand the historical context of P&p much better, but two things are still bothering me. 1. If trading was so badly perceived by the upper class, why did Darcy hang out with the Bingleys? Shouldn't he despise them as much as he initially despised Lizzy's family who were in trade? 2. I understand why Caroline Bingley still lives with her brother as an unmarried woman, but why does their married sister do the same? Do she and her husband do not have their own home? If it is possible, I would love to see films about these topics one day. I promise that I will like and comment them! :) (Sorry if my English is not very good, I hope you will be able to understand main thoughts despite the mistakes).
It was *direct* connection to ‘trade’ that was looked down on the most - by the time the Bingleys’ dad inherited, he’d created some distance- at least enough to get his kids a fancy education with his money* Like the ancient Romans- if you were an owner of a business, & had middle-men in management- to report to you, that was fine (but direct participation meant you could never rise, as it was considered ‘degrading’) - it was even better if you sold your direct business concerns, as Sir Lucas did. The aristocracy & gentry measured wealth predominantly through land ownership & investments. The Bennetts technically outrank the Bingleys in class terms (which is why Caroline looks to put Lizzie down, in Darcy’s eyes, & while she enjoys Jane’s genteel company- she’s hoping for a match between Bingley & Georgiana Darcy; such a marriage would open social doors to her) The Bennetts *weren’t* ‘in trade’- that was one of Caroline’s ill-informed jibes- Ellie did a video on it, I think... also, Caroline’s a hypocrite- her money isn’t necessarily the lure she wants it to be... Direct participation in trade was a massive no-no, if you were aiming to be accepted even into the gentry, let alone the aristocracy. *I like to think that Bingley was being bullied for his background at some fancy school- & Darcy just happened to come to his rescue, & that’s how they become friends. Caroline’s sister & husband _do_ almost certainly have their own home; he’s described as ‘a man of fashionable appetites’, I believe (it’s been more than a hot minute since I read it, though)- they hang around Bingley & Darcy, because the former is generous & giving (& probably too polite to say, ‘take a hike’, or ‘give me a break from the freeloading’)- it’s possible he only has a London residence; people thought nothing about staying with friends & relatives for ages... The latter gives them social cachet, & entry to homes & events they might not have been able to, without him... Also, transportation was costly, & travel difficult & even dangerous - & some people are also just tightwads, too... Sorry for the rambling, lol... Edited for grammar
Ellie, Burke's Peerage was written by John Burke. There are several variations of the name, but it originated as de Burgh. They were Normans who became Marcher Lords in England and, about a hundred years after the conquest of England, went into Ireland. Some also married into royal and noble families. I have de Burghs in my family ancestry. So did Princess Diana.
Excellently explained Ellie. Had two follow up question: (1) Is it certain that Lady Catherine's father was an Earl and not a Marquess or Duke --that also entitle her to the courtesy title Lady? (2) Where did Right Honourable come from? Typically precedes Earl, Viscount, Baron/Lord/Laird in style or connotes a member of H.M.'s Privy Council. Or Was Mr Collins mistaken?
It's also used for certain Lord Mayors and other political figures, which is where I suspect her husband got his "Sir" from . Mr. Collins would NEVER be mistaken about a title.
I think we know that her father is an earl because it is mentioned during the Rosings visit that his cousin is the younger son of an earl (in the conversation between Elizabeth and Colonel Fitzwilliam). Darcy's mother and Lady Catherine's mother and Colonel Fitzwilliam's father (the current earl) are all siblings, so the two ladies are definitely daughters of the previous earl.
I am really fond of English Literature and I have been watching your videos recently because I find History and Literature fascinating. English is not my native language but I have been learning the language ever since I was young. As an avid reader that I have become recently I was determined and commited to read "Pride and Prejudice" in English. And let me tell it is my favourite book now and thanks to you content that you share I have understood the book even better by reading and also watching your videos. Thanks a lot! 😍 P.S. I am on my way to meet more Jane Austen heroines , which means I am excited to read all of her novels.
Aw! I’m so glad the videos helped and that you love Pride and Prejudice now! Also, I’m so excited for you to meet more Austen heroines! 😃✨ And it’s so amazing you can read P&P in English. I can’t read anything in other languages. 😂
@@EllieDashwood New subscriber here because just like you say in your videos if you like History and Literature subscribe. I really like to read in other languages especially in English. I just got my Jane Austen novels so a new adventure awaits to time travel back into Regency Era.
Love your videos focusing on the fine details of Regency/Victorian society! Could you do a video on "Squires"? I've always been confused as to where they fall in the hierarchy, and other videos on nobility/gentry/commoners don't really address them at all (as far as I've found anyway). I'm not as aware of them in Jane Austen's works, but they do show up in other works of literature (e.g. Squire Trelawney of "Treasure Island" or Squire Hamley in "Wives and Daughters"). Love your channel!
Nicely explained! One thought, though. The name of the actual Kentish de Burghs is pronounced de bur - the gh is silent. I wonder what Jane Austen intended.
I don't know when I learned everything that was outlined in your video but it seemed to have come from osmosis being a lover of Pride and Prejudice since my early teens. I don't understand how one could not see that Mr. Darcy, though inheriting large wealth, would not inherit a title and the reasons for this. I wonder why modern users find this book so fascinating when it cannot be easily understood, being from a time, culture, and society so divergent from modern Western society. I would like to see a roundtable discussion with of these readers (they must have read the book, no "I just saw the film" thank you.)
Thank you for explaining this. I'm American. No nobility with titles here (no matter what some might claim!). ED, you have done a good job helping me to understand (albeit still foggy on it) most of it. Thank you ❤️
One fact that's simple to remember: Lady "First Name" means you're the daughter of someone important, Lady "Surname" means you're the wife of someone important
This is very helpful, thank you!
It also specifically means you’re the ELDEST daughter of someone important. Generally it was only the eldest unmarried daughter who was ‘first name surname’ all other daughters were ‘miss surname’ unless being directly introduced, since eldest daughters were the most important since they were next in line on the marriage market
@@emilybarclay8831Uh, no. If all the Miss Bennets were in the same social occasion, the eldest would be called Miss Bennet. The other sisters would be Miss [first name]. If there was only one sister in that setting, she would be Miss Bennet regardless of age. Once Miss Bennet (Jane) marries, she would be called Mrs Bingley. Then Elizabeth would be Miss Bennet.
You see this in how Mr Darcy refers to Lizzie as Miss Elizabeth during the ball which was attended by all the Bennet sisters, but otherwise called her Miss Bennet when she visited Rosings.
@@krdiaz8026im not so sure its only that either. I think maybe both of you are right for different situations. Ellie Dashwood made a video about social calls and calling cards, in which the naming conventions used are of the person you're responding to
@@emilybarclay8831 Actually Miss Surname is only the eldest, Miss First Name Surname is for all the younger daughters. When the eldest gets married the next eldest becomes Miss Surname.
However, for the daughter of Dukes, Marquesses and Earls, ALL daughters are Lady First Name Surname irrespective of age or birth order. No one can be Lady Surname in this case because it would mean one of them is the wife of a lord rather than the daughter of one.
When I first learned that Lady Catherine had married so far beneath her status, I thought of a couple of things: 1) Nobody close in rank to her wanted to marry her; 2) Her constant referring to "who I am" is an over-compensation for knowing she actually has a negligible rank. It helps put her snobbery into perspective and adds a lot of nuance ot the novel.
Hi. Lady Catherine is of course not a likeable character but it is possible that she married someone of less grand status, albeit still of high rank, because she fell in love with him. Over the centuries lots of daughters of nobles have married people who are not aristocrats. For example, Lady Diana Spencer's two sisters have done so.
@@glendodds3824 Obviously the kinder interpretation works! In that case Lady C. has somehow become a snob and a bully by some other means. My assumption that she was always a "mean girl" is colored by my impressions of her when I was just a student.
Hi. Your assumption that Lady Catherine was always a bully and snob is probably correct. However, although she married a man of lower status, her position in society was not negligible. Marrying a rich country gentleman of ancient family would not have fatally undermined her standing because marriages between the aristocracy and gentry were not rare. For instance, when Pride and Prejudice was published, one of Britain’s richest and grandest aristocrats, the Duke of Northumberland, was married to the daughter of a country gentleman whose family had only recently moved up into the ranks of the gentry, and in 1817 Lady Augusta Henrietta Vane, the 20-year-old daughter of another wealthy aristocrat, married Mr Mark Milbank of Thorp Perrow and Barningham and the couple moved in the highest social circles. Indeed, one of George III’s sons, HRH the Duke of Sussex, was godfather to one of their children, Augustus Sussex Milbank.
@@glendodds3824 Very interesting!
@@lisakilmer2667 Hi. Thanks.
I love how Ellie talks about social precedence and Lady Catherine "flexing" while in the background the cats are demonstrating how they are at the top of the social precedence and flexing on us mere mortals. :)
I'm with you on the cats! Also, I knew that about Lady Catherine de Bourgh.
Meow rules. That is all you need to know.
since cats are the masters and mistresses of the universe, they outrank even the king.
This knowledge makes it even more ironic that Lady Catherine disproves of her nephew marrying "socially lower" than him when she did the exact same thing, but 12 steps more detrimental haha
That's exactly what I was thinking...that at some point she had to be so desperate to marry that the only one who would do it was someone sooooo desperate to marry UP themselves.
@@XtreamBrands that part
I think to Lady Catherine her thought was you either marry for a title or money, love is meaningless. Based off of Mr. Collins boasting she's very well off and women didn't have personal property it was all their husband's money, even her dowry.
It really makes you wonder why both daughters married so far down. Obviously the Darcy's and the De Bourg's were both quite rich families, but still... Although, now that I'm thinking about it, Lady Catherine does say at one point that Darcy's mother was all in favor of him marrying Lady Catherine's daughter. Maybe this was a multi-generational scheme to unite the wealth of the families?
@@ixta Maybe the Fitzwilliam family didn't have much money. Colonel Fitzwilliam was (working?) in the military for money or at least an occupation. Even if his brother would inherit the title and a majority of the money I would this his father would leave him something, unless there wasn't much to leave him if everything should go to the future Earl to maintain the prestige/land. If both sisters didn't have much money but had prestige of being the daughters of an Earl then it would have sense they'd marry wealthy, respectable but untitled men. Of course it's all a guess I have no way of backing it up and I thought of as I started typing.
Yes! Now I get it. She looked for a man that was rich enough to sustain her lifestyle but low enough she could still use her superior title with, therefore, showing us all she truly cared about rank and status.
Agreed, it was probably better for Lady Catherine to marry a rich commoner than someone in the peerage but lower than an earl.
I'm somewhat fascinated by Anne de Bourgh. She is so shadowed by her mother, she is practically a blank slate. Is she a Lady Catherine in training, snobbish and trying to get her claws into Mr Darcy's money? Is she perfectly pleasant, just waiting for the opportunity to bloom once she escapes her mother's household? Is the meekness all an act, and behind the scenes she is hunting vampires?
I've always had the theory that Lady Catherine's relationship with her daughter was a Munchausen syndrome by proxy:
She would reiterate in public about Anne's poor health, but never detailed what was wrong with her. Lady Catherine feeds off lording over people, and who better to enslave emotionally than her own offspring? People raised by toxic narcissists end up having poorer health out of pure neglect and abuse.
She's supposedly adamant on Darcy marrying Anne, but only says so to Elisabeth in private. Surely, she would have pushed for a wedding earlier. If not to Darcy, she would have been able to marry her to a good (and opportunistic) match. An incredibly rich wife with poor health? Any man with no qualms would enter that loveless marriage and wait to become a young widow. However, Lady Catherine wants to keep Anne by her side. Before Mr. Collins appeared in her rectory, the only puppet she could control as she pleased was her own daughter. She's never going to marry her off.
TL, DR.: Lady Catherine de Bourgh was an emotional vampire that fed off her daughter and anyone near her. There was nothing wrong with her daughter, except for having her Ladyship as mother. Anne is basically 'greyrocking' and waiting for either one of them to die.
Ho ho ho. I like that one. A friend of mine once wrote a fanfic AU about Anne being secretly a secret agent fighting against Napoleon, and she had been trying to get Mary Bennett married off to Mr Collins so that she could live near by and be her intelligence analyst. :-)
@@DaisyNinjaGirl Hi, Stephanie!
@@michaelwoodhams7866 Hi Michael! (Blush) When I look at RUclips comments, I tend to skim over the handles because I don't 'know' anyone on RUclips. Until now! Of course you would like this channel, too. (But also, I think you should post that P&P story on ArchiveOfOurOwn. And the one about hunting vampires - that sounds like the Pride and Prejudice and Zombies story that we all _deserved_ to have.)
JA has such concise but descriptive details about her characters over all her books. I have many times thought or said aloud "that sounds just like ...(insert someone living today)"!
"Darcy as the daughter of an Earl" is my new favorite Pride and Prejudice AU
😂😂😂
Wouldn't that be "Lady Fitzwilliam as the daughter of an Earl?"
I used to have a boss who used her maiden name at work but her husband was a "Sir" so she had the right to be called "Lady (husband's name). Someone once asked her if she ever used her title and she replied "only to get a table in restaurant" which I think is pretty cool. I still use her as a point of reference when dealing with snobs since she insisted on being addressed by her first name and was one of the least hierarchical people I have ever known.
Hi. My father was a jockey and often rode horses for a baronet, the late Sir Henry Grattan-Bellew, who was very friendly and down-to-earth. Moreover, although he never mentioned the fact to me, Henry's maternal grandmother was a daughter of the 7th Earl of Granard.
You refer, I think, to Jamie Lee Curtis, wife of Lord Hayden-Guest, known professionally as Christopher Guest.
Same. Never met a nicer person
When you think about it, Darcy should be just as embarrassed by his aunt as Elizabeth is by her mother. Lady Catherine lacks manners and tact.
He has a great eye-rolling scene behind her back in the BBC version.
Yeah, that cheeseball's got no friggin' class.
I'm sure Austen included Lady Catherine as a pendant to Mrs. Bennet. As the saying goes, "Everyone has family members that are embarrassing."
I mean… I think that’s kind of the point 🙂
@@frigginjerk Paul, you is a wahrwilf...
Me: ah yes, another fine video from Elinor “Ellie” Dashwood-
Ellie: “Lady Electra”
Me: 👁 👄 👁
Not usually a fan of emoji but these say it all!
I'm just thinking of the Elektra Complex.
Such a cool name!!!
I went back and double checked to make sure I heard right! You go Lady Electra!
I always wonder if Lady Catherine's father was experiencing financial difficulties, because they married untitled gentlemen, and she talked about how she never had the opportunity to learn music...
I assumed Lady Catherine was lying about not having the opportunity to learn music, to cover for not being any good at it.
Her father was the Earl Fitzwilliam, presumably very wealthy. One supposes she was just too know-it-all and smug to bother learning, even as a child
@@thebuttermilkyway687 it wasn't uncommon for peers to be up to their necks in debt. the upper class was obsessed with buying and gambling, and the fact that peers couldn't be arrested was an incentive to keep spending.
@@giovana4121 It would explain why there was no money to give Colonel Fitzwilliam. If families could save money separate from the entail to give daughters as a dowry, they could also give money to sons.
Very likely. It was the 'old blood plus new money' dynamic, I think. I mean yes Lady Catherine states they are old families, but their wealth may have been relatively new.
If Sir Lewis was lower presidence than Lady Catherine, then she must have married Sir Lewis because he had a lot of money. I can't see Lady Catherine marrying anyone without a fortune, unless it was for a more noble title.
My guess is Lady Catherine wanted Darcy to marry Anne to consolidate both fortunes. Once Darcy marries Lizzy, would Lady Catherine try to rope C. Fitzwilliam into marrying Anne, to at least keep the fortune in the family? Anne seems like she would struggle to find a good husband, because she is "sickly" and probably hard to otherwise marry off because of it. C. Fitzwilliam is looking for a rich bride, Anne needs a husband...
Though I wonder if Anne might become less sickly out from under Lady Catherine's thumb.
He must have been wealthy to afford a splendid house with such a large number of windows!
I was always wondering about that last part you've mentioned: How much of Anne's "sickeness" was just her mother's overbearing influence.
Although Lizzy describes her as having sickly constitution and little conversation. I can't help to think, that it was Lady Catherine, who didn't allow her daughter to go outside for a healthy walk, or spend time with her neighbors and to actually talk to people.
What a loss.
@@suonatar1 I agree. Even if Anne's health isn't really that bad, the stress from her overbearing mother would make her 100% worse.
I always have thought it was more calculated than that - perhaps she couldn’t get an earl, so purposely married a wealthy commoner rather than a lower level noble specifically because of being able to keep her rank?
@@bookcat123 I hadn't though about it like that, but undoubtedly that must have been in her calculations too.
Ellie - A word about cousins, from a genealogist (me): 1) If you share a parent, then you are siblings. 2) If you share a grandparent, then you are first cousins. 2) If you share a great grandparent, then you are second cousins, and so forth. 3) A child of your first cousin is your first cousin once removed (i.e., one generation apart). 4) A grandchild of your first cousin is your first cousin twice removed, and so forth. Almost nobody knows this any more, because in today's mobile and fractured society, so many people don't know anything about their extended family. At that time, though, most people knew, or knew about, these collateral relatives.
On a related note, in genealogy your great great grandparents are known as your "Sweet Sixteen", because there are 16 of them. They are the grandparents of your grandparents, and in most cohesive families are the furthest ancestors within living memory, i.e., your grandparents remember their grandparents and can tell you about them.
Hope that this helps.
I think ED's content is very informative but her delivery is what really sells it for me.
I have watched other creators discuss Austen and other classic books and sometimes the delivery is boring. They are essentially narration over a PowerPoint presentation. Maybe seeing ED's face, like typical creators, sets a better tone, too.
Aw! This is so sweet! Thank you for enjoying the videos 😃
I agree! The way she delivers the content is fun and engaging.
I'm not even a fan of Austen but I saw a video that intrigued me and I loved Ellie's presentation. The next thing I know, I learned more about Austen and regency society than I ever wanted to know.
I think Ellie's presentation is just what is needed to introduce young readers to Austen. Go Ellie!
Yesss!!! 💞💞💞
I'm peruvian, and this is the first English channel that I really love because I started to read Jane Austen book's since I was a child. Now, I can practice my English with your videos. Thanks for all, I really love your channel! You're awesome💕
Aw! Thank you!!! That is so cool that you’re from Peru! 💕 And you write English so well. 👍🏻 Thanks so much for being here and welcome to the channel!!!
On the subject of cousins marrying in Jane Austen, keep in mind that Fanny and Edmund in Mansfield Park were first cousins. Their mothers were sisters.
This whole title thing reminds me of a story that became a family joke. My father, Eli Arbel had a doctorate in physics (electronics, to be exact). He never used his title unless for a good reason (e.g. when he joined the struggle to free the prisoners of Zion, and his title opened doors for him). Once a friend of mine needed help in Math, I asked my father and he agreed to tutor her. Before their first meeting, she asked me: "What should I call him, Dr. Arbel or Professor Arbel?" I answered, "Call him Eli".
Now we can all flex with our newborn Lady Catherine hierarchy knowledge. Take care Lady Electra!
😂😂😂 So much flexing can go down now.
The "Lady First Name" bit was very interesting because I recently read Austen's Lady Susan and the other people's reactions to Lady Susan's antics make much more sense knowing that she was by far the highest ranking person in the story, even though it must have been a courtesy title.
I definitely get the feeling that, when Sir Lewis proposed to Lady Catherine, she was probably thinking all about how marrying him would let her keep her fancy title, and might’ve refused him if it meant losing that title.
But that title was always hers, no matter who she married. If she had married Darcy's father, she would have been Lady Catherine Darcy.
My theory; he was the only titled gentleman who offered for her. Given how proud and snobbish she is, I believe she would have preferred someone of her father's rank or higher.
“Are the shades of Pemberley to be thusly polluted?” As expressed by the GREAT Dame Judy Dench.
Hi. As you probably know, Lady Catherine was referring to the fact that if Darcy married Elizabeth he would have Lydia and Whickham as relatives: "And is such a girl to be my nephew’s sister. Is her husband, is the son of his late father’s steward, to be his brother? Heaven and earth!-of what are you thinking? Are the shades” . . . . etc.
An interesting modern parallel is with the current Royal family, technically Catherine the Duchess of Cambridge is not "Princess Catherine", she is "Princess William", because she married into royalty, whereas her daughter, Charlotte is called "Princess Charlotte" because she was born a princess.
isn't it actually "The Princess Charlotte"?
No she is HRH Princess Charlotte of Cambridge . “The” in front of the prince or princess is reserved for children of the monarch. Once HRH The Duke of Cambridge becomes HRH The Prince of Wales, Princess Charlotte will become HRH Princess Charlotte of Wales and The Duchess of Cambridge will become HRH The Princess of Wales. Once Prince William becomes King, he would be HM The King, the Duchess would HM The Queen, and Princess Charlotte would become HRH The Princess Charlotte (depending on when HRH The Princess Royal passes away, Prince William (who would then be King) could give Princess Charlotte the title of Princess Royal which is reserved for the eldest daughter of the monarch, there can’t be two Princess Royals so she would have to wait until Princess Anne died)
@@sleepdoesnotexist.14
Very interesting. Thank you for adding that. I’ve become interested in these things by listening to Lady C’s vlog.
We can call her Lady Cambridge
@@perdidoatlantic It waa no problem at all! Ive always been very interested in history and the monarchy and i enjoy educating others as well😊
The English and their social pecking order with their plethora of titles and distinctions are just insane - it's like some kind of super nerdy boardgame.
And of course, I would keep my title. 😉😄
Haha, me too! I'd keep my title too but if I married up...maybe I’d change it!
¡Los subtítulos en español están disponibles! The Spanish subtitles are now available! Sorry again for the delay! 😃💕
After your video where are you said about the EDS and burnout I was worried. Because I have EDS myself and I also have coeliac disease and post sepsis syndrome. But because of that I understand the whole burnout thing way too easily
Oh no! I hope you're doing well right now. 💕 It's so dumb how health problems can pop up and try to ruin everything. We should probably both try to take it easier on ourselves. Admittedly, that is so much easier said than done. 😭
The Spanish subtitles are such a blessing, one of my best friends is a hardcore Jane Austen fan but she only speaks Spanish. She's gonna love your content.
Don't worry Idk if you saw my comment on your video, but I also have EDS (and all the lovely complexities that come with it). If you ever need a hand with Spanish subtitles let me know and I will be happy to help out. From one Zebra to another one 💖
I practice my English with you! 🇲🇽
I had no idea that “Ellie” was short for “Electra”. “Lady Electra” is Fire 🔥! Love it! 👍🏿
Given Sir Lewis De Bourgh's property wasn't entailed to me it seems more likely he was a knight. If he was a Baronet it seems much more likely that he would pass the title and the property together to whichever relative was next in line (unless, as you say, he was the last surviving male heir and the title died with him).
Imagine your first RUclips comment ever is literally just talking about how absolutely shook you were when you realized Ellie was short for Electra
PS. Love your content! I listen to it while I’m lashing and it makes me feel so ~fancy~
Aw! Thanks so much for your super fancy support! 😃✨ Also, This is how I bring up engagement on my channel, revealing shocking facts like Ellie being short for Electra. 😂😂😂 Thanks so much for your comment!
@@EllieDashwood. Well, the combination of Lady with Electra is so utterly sub zere cool. I mean, that deserves to be held as a title, at least trough out life, so stay healthy Lady Electra❣️😁
@throwme away lashing?
@@EllieDashwood I don’t know why but Lady Electra also sounds like a superhero name… super cool both ways ❤️
Same, though the connotation is rather unnerving.
"And your parents, Lady Elektra, are they in good health?"
Social precedence can still matter in some societies. My mother was essentially disowned for marrying my father. She was from a cadet branch of the Nikaido clan so her birth certificate gave her class as bushi. It was a big deal to her that she was only six generations from a Nikaido girl marrying an imperial prince. And my father came from a respectable poor farming family from Tennessee that had lived in the county since before the civil war. So she never went back to Japan because she wouldn’t go without her husband
I learned about the difference between “Lady First Name” versus “Lady Last Name” from this video. Quite fascinating, all the nuances of titles. I just recently learned what a baronet was, it was so confusing at first due to the similarly named peerage title of Baron.
But this video reiterates what I heard a while ago and what was a difficult concept for me to grasp at first. It is that because Diana (Princess of Wales) was the daughter of an Earl, technically her courtesy title is that of Lady Diana. In vernacular language, many refer to her as Princess Di, although it is not quite correct , in regards to titles. I heard this in another video, but she’s a princess but she’s not Princess (as in the title) like how Princess Anne and Princess Charlotte are. I’m still a little bit trying to articulate this difference, but I think I understand a bit better now!
Hi. Yes, it is a complex subject. Moreover, as you note baronets are not members of the peerage. Consequently, they are sometimes dismissed as insignificant but people often forget that baronets mothers were sometimes the daughters of dukes etc. For, instance, the mother of Sir William Lowther, 3rd baronet, was a daughter of the Duke of Devonshire one of the grandest aristocrats in Britain. Moreover, other ducal family also have family ties with members of the baronetage, including the Dukes of Argyll, Northumberland and Roxburghe. Indeed, it is safe to say that every old noble family is related to baronets.
Yes as you noted, it is incorrect to refer to the wives of the princes as Princess Diana or Princess Kate for instance. Typically Prince or Princess “first name” are children of the monarch or royals. When a wife marries a prince, she doesn’t even become a Princess necessarily (unless she marries the Prince of Wales in which case her title does become Princess of Wales). For instance, when Prince William was HRH The Duke of Cambridge, his wife Catherine did not become Princess but was styled HRH Duchess of Cambridge. Yes she was a Royal Highness but not a Princess. Even now, she’s not Princess Kate but generically HRH The Princess of Wales.
With Anne and Catherine marrying commoners and Colonel Fitzwilliam hemming about money, we need to suspect that the earldom was a bit down at heel. That’s why she so fiercely defends position-she’s a little sensitive. Also, even if Sir Lewis was a baronet, that originated as a purchased designation under James I (to avoid calling Parliament), which makes Sir Elliot’s snobbery so funny: as the 5th baronet, the origin was placed around the time of Charles I most likely, when that “title” was even more heavily for sale. Additionally, Lady Catherine’s estate being both unentailed and a “Park” instead of a singular estate name (e.g. Longbourne or Pemberly) smacks a bit of wealth made in trade or in the colonies, another reason for her to be so insecure.
Lady Electra Dashwood-what a SUPER fancy name and title. I so enjoy all your posts, Lady Electra.
FYI, there are EXTRA super fancy British titles that do not die without a male son or must move to a jumped-up cousin like Mr Collins.
When John Churchill, the first Duke of Marlborough, died, his daughter Henrietta became the 2nd Duchess of Marlborough. Henrietta’s son died before she did, and the title went to the son of Henrietta’s sister, Anne: Charles Spencer, 3rd Duke of Marlborough. Two generations later, the family name became Spencer-Churchill, well, reasons.
More recently, when Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma, was killed, his title went to his older daughter, who had been Lady Patricia Mountbatten, then Lady Patricia Brabourne, then became the 2nd Countess Mountbatten of Burma. When she died in 2017, her eldest son, Norton, became the 3rd Earl Mountbatten of Burma.
Also FYI, you can always look up Wikipedia for: the ‘list of peerages inherited by women’-interesting stuff!
I firmly recall from the Lord Peter Wimsey novels (totally different era, yes), that Lord Peter had a ceremonial title as the younger son of a duke. When he married dear Harriet Vane, someone calls her Lady Peter, not Lady Harriet or Lady Wimsey, and Harriet is impressed because she knows that form of address. On looking up forms of address on Wikipedia (that revered font of wisdom) I find this is correct for the wife of a duke’s younger son.
All your videos are so wonderful and informative! This one in particular made me wonder about Persuasion’s Dowager Viscountess Lady Dalrymple and her daughter Miss Carteret, their wealth, status and names.
Persuasion is my favorite Austen book after Pride and Prejudice, and I loved the breakdown you did in your video on entailments, as I feel it illuminated both those books in a whole new light! Thank you for all you do, and keep taking care of yourself!
So happy the algorithm recommended this video.
When Austen talks about rank or money, I'm clueless, just understnad that some are higher/richer and some lower/less rich. Now all is a bit clearer.
Loving your videos, all the way from Mexico City!!!
Perfect timing. I’m doing some research on baronets for a book. This helps so much. 🥰
Yay! I'm so glad it was helpful!
@Jonathan Parks Thanks!! I loved her. I’ll check it out.
@Jonathan Parks Do you mean Octavia Cox? I love her channel!
Ginger Lane. Hi. During your research you will find that some baronets married the daughters of dukes, marquesses and earls etc and that the daughters of baronets sometimes married high ranking aristocrats. For example, one daughter of Sir Lionel Tollemache, 3rd baronet. became the tenth Countess of Argyll and ended her days as the first Duchess of Argyll, whereas one of her sisters became the 16th Countess of Sutherland.
@Jonathan Parks Sir Walter Elliot was of course a pompous fool. However, Dr Cox's analysis of baronets gives the impression that they were small fry and that is incorrect.
Look at the kitties🐈🥰 they're just hanging out, minding their business!🤣
They actually did mind their business the day I shot this! Usually their main goal is to get between me and the camera and purr into the microphone. 😂🐈⬛😂🐈😂
Those kitties are so CUTE!
Yay! Glad to see a new vid from you. Hope you're feeling better!!!👑🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡
Thank you!!! 😊 I am definitely working on feeling better! I hope you're doing well!
Very interesting! I'd like to learn more about the "untitled but ancient" family lines. One book I read about this ages ago mentioned that even though Darcy is not titled, everyone understands that he comes from an ancient line, which is partly due to the fact that he has a French (D'arcy) name. Sorry I can't remember all the specifics about it, I don't have the book with me currently.
Hi. Most landed families are untitled and many of them have owned their estates for hundreds of years and are related through marriage to the aristocracy.
Bennet is also a surname of Norman origin.
Jane uses this situation a lot. She said the same about the Woodhouse family in Emma. Ancient distinguished family that lived in their land for a long time.
I find it mind-boggling that Lady Catherine, a snob par excellence, married down. Well, he was pretty rich, I guess hahaha.
ELLIE IS BACK!!!
Hope you're feeling great, girl 😍
More content from our beloved Dashie! Woo-hoo! She needs a PBS series...
The cats in the back are great! “Whatcha doing mom? Oh, making a video? Cool. Cool. We’ll just watch from here.”
It's interesting that both sisters Lady Anne and Lady Catherine Fitzwilliam married beneath them. ("Married down.") Yet, Lady Catherine DB is extremely class and status conscious in the novel. You'd think she'd want her daughter to marry someone with a title, which Darcy didn't have. I hope you are feeling well. Thank you for continuing to provide your awesome videos for us!
I think there've been videos talking about this, but the time period this takes place in and the world Jane Austen grew up in were slowly moving away from the idea of titles being where power comes from. Money was becoming more and more important, and while titles were respectable, titles did not guarantee you could keep your wealthy way of life.
Lady Catherine strikes me as someone that obviously holds to the old ways (touts her title and noble lineage all over the place) but has been forced to admit that money's truly where its at. It hasn't been confirmed, but I have a feeling that the Earl's side of the family, including Colonel Fitzwilliam, probably aren't as wealthy as the Darcy's of Pemberley. She might love her titles, but she's shrewd and knows which way the wind's blowing.
I could even see this being a case of the two sisters debating between title or money as being the better marriage choice. Since their father had a son, who they married technically mattered little. They would still want to stay within a certain level of society, but they could be more choosy.
I think Lady Catherine believed in bloodlines and nobility and all that while Lady Anne was more about love (and money lol.) Lady Catherine maybe tried to find someone of a higher rank, but they either weren't any available at the time (since there weren't nearly as many peerage as some novels woukd make you think) or, in a take I think is particularly hilarious, none of them would have Lady Catherine because she was obnoxious. Lol. Lady Anne, instead, didn't look within the peerage at all, and instead settled upon the Darcy's, an exorbitantly wealthy family of great repute, but no title. Lady Catherine was forced to settle for a baronet (far, far beneath her but still technically titled,) and one that wasn't quite as wealthy as Lady Anne's husband.
She saw Lady Anne's lifestyle, saw how her son and daughter got to grow up, and compared it to her own life and her only daughter, who was sickly and woukd require someone to care for her. With the choice to be made between marrying her into the Earl side of the family, which would give her daughter a respectable title but less money, and the Darcy side, with no title but lots and LOTS of money and comfort for her fragile daughter, she knew which alliance she needed to forge. Her daughter's comfortability mattered more than a title.
You don't need a title to be fancy, mademoiselle, you already are very fancy ! Thank you for those delightful videos, great work !
So good to see a video from you. Enjoyed this so much. 👒
Yay! I'm so glad you enjoyed it!!! 😃✨
I'm so happy you're back. :-)
Aw! Thank you!!!!
Welcome back and I hope that you're feeling better
Aw thank you! It’s great to be back!!!
Ellie, I really love your videos! I was wondering the other day how the Regency Era houses really were, on the inside. Where did they go to the bathroom in Pemberly? 😂 Just something that haunts me. Would be interesting to see you explaining it in a video!
Good question! 😂😂😂 These are the important matters of life. 🤔 I will definitely write it down on my list of video topic ideas. Thank you!!!
Chamber pot. And stately homes were the last to adopt plumbing/ flushing toilets. Mostly because with the army of servants to clean up after them they did not see the point of ripping up walls. You might find this interesting: ruclips.net/video/NvdWc4WcYXA/видео.html
At last, the reason I prefer to READ about the Regency era instead of living it! NO plumbing. 😳
I think keeping the title would come down to my relationship with my family vs. my in-laws xD
😂😂😂 It's all in the family drama.
I realize this after Downton Abbey where everyone call Cora Lady Grantham but Mary Edith and Sybil are Lady their names. ☝🏻🤓
Great video. I wish we had gotten a scene where someone called Lady Catherine out for marrying down after all her talk of marrying right. Although I like to think that was the best she could. All other titled and untitled men fleeing from her after meeting her.
Haha!
Well, but her argument was technically more about wealth. Elizabeth was the same STATUS as Darcy; Lady Catherine's problem was she wasn't rich. She and her sister hadn't 'married down' since their husbands were WEALTHY gentry - basically well-off gentry and poverty-stricken nobility were the same social circle. Marrying UP for them would have required a wealthier noble or one of a higher rank than earl. Marrying down would have been POOR gentry (like Elizabeth) or shock horror, TRADESMEN!
Is your last name really Dashwood? I can’t get over how incredibly fitting it is that you have almost the same name as a main Austen character.
I wondered the same thing! This is the first time I've heard her mention the name Electra, so maybe Ellie is a nickname, but I wasn't sure if Dashwood was her real last name. I always assumed the channel was a cute play on Elinor Dashwood. :)
According to some of her other content, yes, Dashwood is her real last name. I did not know until today, however, that Ellie was short for Electra. Super cool name! Electra Dashwood: almost like Austen meets futuristic super hero 🤩
@@kaylaemminizerbrophy7132 Haha, yes! :)
I can imagine her wanting to hide her last name for privacy reasons(and weird people).
But imagine eleckra dashwood.
@@kaylaemminizerbrophy7132Electra Dashwood almost sounds like the mean girl or seductress in a novel.
Whether I kept my title would depend, I suppose, on why I married my husband.
If it was for practical reasons (money, position etc.), then I would keep it. But if I really loved and respected my husband, then I would take his status as my own as a form of solidarity and partnership.
Another good video, Ellie. 👍
Aw thank you! And that’s such a good point. There’s much to be considered when making that decision! 🧐
In the super hierarchical world of the Regency, Sir Lewis de Bourgh gained some status by marrying Lady Catherine, so it was in the best interest of the partnership's combined social standing for her to keep her title.
@@saniashifferd5635 That is a really good point!
As the daughter of an earl Lady Catherine was always entitled to be referred to as Lady Catherine. If she had married a farm labourer it would have made no difference. She would not have become Mrs Yokel.
Same goes in Downton Abbey when Lady Mary Crawley, daughter of the earl of Grantham marries Henry Talbot, untitled member of the younger branch of a high ranking family. Lady Mary is refered to as Lady Mary Talbot and her husband as Mr Henry Talbot. I do not think it is a matter of choice that she chose to keep her "title", it is a matter of tradition. Calling herself Mrs Talbot would have been a strong statement on her part, like rejecting her background and family.
As for Lady Catherine De Bourgh, she automatically kept her "title" when marrying Sir Lewis, I don't think she could have gone and style herself Lady De Bourgh even if she felt strongly like making a statement about rejecting her background.
Loved the cats and the tease at the end. Precedence became very important in early Australian colonial society with so many people battling for position with obscure claims to position.
I’m very interested in this topic, because I have been working on a semi-historical novel, inspired by some of my ancestors in the early half of the 18th century- who came from Ireland to Australia
I believe it went something along the lines of;
colonial government officials of high ranks
military high ranks
wealthy landowners - usually free settlers, or retired officials/ military
clergy of high ranks
government officials of middle ranks
high ranked professionals (doctors, lawyers & the like)
middle rung landowners - could be free settlers, or freed convicts who’d long established themselves
military middle ranks
clergy middle ranks
middle ranked professionals
modest landowners
lower ranked government officials
lower-ranked professionals
lower ranked clergy
Skilled artisans (like carpenters & such)
common (not poor) landowners
poorer landowners (who might well have done other work, to supplement their income)
lower ranked military
Artisans/ apprentices
tenant farmers (people who did not own their own land)
unskilled labourers
convicts
Freed convicts could be part (in many cases, a large part) of several of the lower, & lower half of the middling society ranks- depending on their pre-transportation skills (a convicted forger later became Colonial Postmaster, I believe); they _could_ rise quite high- & depending on things like, how long they had been established with their ticket-of-leave, if they had developed a relationship with the colonial government (as some of the early freed convicts did), & if they developed land.
In the early decades of the colony, several convicts were incentivised with land plots- to encourage productivity.
I still have a lot of research to do....
A bit of a rabbit trail, but I've always imagined that Mr. Collins (and only Mr. Collins) pronounces Lady Catherine's name as elaborately and as French as he possibly can.
Casting Dame Judy Dench as Lady Catherine in 2005 returns a little bit of that flex to us as a modern audience, I think. There's a certain amount of excitement and awe built in with such a major actor.
Great point!
Ellie Dashwood, my very favourite commentator on all things Austen-related, forgive me if I made a comment like this after another video...
One thing I find jarring about many Jane Austen inspired fiction - too many Lords! Decades ago, when I was a student, I tapped my University's library to read about this period, because my parents and I were fans of nautical fiction, like CS Forester's Horatio Hornblower.
One of those books had an excellent chapter on the value of money, back then. It also compared the English nobility with the French nobility, during the Scarlet Pimpernel period. It said that, in the french system, all the children of a French noble could consider themselves part of the French nobility, with the result that a full 4 percent of the French population could claim nobility. In contrast, it said, just prior to the French revolution, there were only 92 individuals entitled to sit in the House of Lords.
The size of the House of Lords was expanded, during the next couple of decades, because it was wartime. Nelson and Wellington made it into the House of Lords to reward them for winning a heroic victory. But lots of other individuals made it into the House of Lords as part of a quid pro quo. They were rewarded for a political favour. They made the 19th century equivalent of a political donation. Or they did some other kind of favour. Jane Austen dropped no hints that Fitzwilliam Darcy took an active role in politics, so he would be unlikely to be rewarded with a peerage.
As the largest landowner in Derbyshire he would not only control multiple valuable livings, he likely controlled at least one rotten borough - making a Member of Parliament owe their career to him.
When QE2 was crowned there were over two dozen non-Royal Dukes. But when the Duke of Wellington became a Duke, there were eight other Dukes more senior than he was. Dukes were very uncommon. Wellington was still a handsome guy, still pursued by groupies. But how many of the other Dukes would have been older and less handsome than Wellington?
In my last paragraph I will return to what this book said about the value of money. It spoke about the life of an itinerant rural worker. Days they worked, it said they traditionally earned a shilling a day. They would work from Dawn to Dusk, sleep in their employer's barn, and could expect excellent farm fresh food, where they could consume 4,000 or more Calories. The book said one of these workers could look forward to something like 100 days of employment a year, at planting, at harvest, and a couple of other periods of the year when a tenant farmer, or gentries own farms, needed more workers than their full-time staff. 100 shillings? That is 5 pounds. 5 pounds per year. What would these farm workers do the other 265 days of the year? The book said, but I don't remember. Poorhouse? Begging? Sell hand-made knick-knacks they carved? Weave baskets? I can't recall. But a lot of JAFF authors have an unrealistic idea of the value of money, back then.
Cheers!
That’s so interesting! 🧐 I know one thing, I’m glad I don’t have to sleep in anyone’s barn for a shilling a day. 😂 And good point about the size of the peerage, it was extremely small compared to other European nations. The English nobility really was an exclusive set.
Prior to enclosures, labourers would have rights of forage and pasturing on the common ground of the parish. Which would makes a super interesting video actually, because it's not obvious to casual modern readers what 'enclosing' means, and it was a big driver of social change in Austen's period. Also, I find it pretty funny in Emma that Mr Knightley is framed as this really old fashioned, Old England kind of guy, when he's obviously up to his neck in enclosing the parish and joining in the Great Agricultural Revolution. (All the talk about turnips and moving rights of way and gypsies camping on the road.)
That was super interesting about the comparative size of the aristocracy!
Part 2 Labourers who belonged to a parish could also ask for relief under the Poor Laws. While this *could* be accomodations in the local House of Industry, it could also be wage top ups, subsidies during the off-season, or finding someone work. (There's another throw away line in Emma about Mr Elton having to go arrange Poor Relief for someone who's dad is sick.) But again, this system was breaking down. Poor Houses we're originally supposed to be the last resort but by I think 1830s there was this philosophical shift to 'So many poor people, we must incarcerate them!!' and Oliver Twist style work houses started being built.
Geo Swan. Your comment is fascinating. However, Jane Austen does not say that Darcy was the largest landowner in Derbyshire.
@@glendodds3824 Maybe I should go back and check. I thought Charlotte Lucas said he owned "half of Derbyshire". Do you think I took that too literally? Wouldn't it imply he owned more than all the other landowners?
Thanks for explaining this. I had not thought about it before. It's fascinating
Yay! I'm so glad you enjoyed it! 😀✨
You do a terrific job of explaining! Love to be able to understand the rules of that era
Aw! Thank you! I’m so glad the videos help! 😃
An excellent explanation of how this system works! E.g. my sister was social secretary to Lady Mary Baring, whose husband was Sir Evelyn Baring (knight). Lady Mary was the daughter of Earl Grey (related to Earl Grey tea). Sir Evelyn was elevated to Baron but his wife continued to be Lady Mary…😀
Ellie this was just excellent!! Superb analysis and presentation. I can only imagine how much research had to go into that one video. You make it all seem so effortless but I know that it cannot possibly be so. So a simple but heartfelt thank you is the very least I can do - 🤗🤗
Have loved your commentary ever since I discovered your channel. This video on Lady D' Bourgh was exceptional. But the kitties! Just loved their cameos.
Great video! I was also wondering who gets to inherit Rosing’s park? In case miss Anne de Bourgh does not marry anybody
i'm officially obsessed with your channel, i'm binge watching all of your videos. can you make one about your favourites regency novels? 🙏🏽🙏🏽
Another clue is that everyone refers to her as "Her/Your Ladyship". It's a different status, one of blood nobility. Like Lady Susan who married into it. Lady Lucas never gets called that, because she's just a knight's wife.
If you ever are in London, I would 100% advise run to the Pride and Prejudice* (*sort of) show on West End. It is SO good and enjoyable. I liked it even more than The Phantom of the Opera I went to the previous day. And I'm a huge PotO fan so that's telling :)
"Lady Electra", totally fitting!
LOVE your videos! Thank you for the hard work and research. Also, I love how your videos are super-informative without being stodgy. 💗
So, let's say Lady Anne's brother (the Earl) passes and both his sons pass without male heirs. Would Darcy be in line to inherit his uncle's title or would they delve deeper into the Fitzwilliam line - perhaps through the Earl's father's line? - to dredge up a far-distant relation to inherit? Thank you and take the best care of yourself!
P.S. OMG, what a kick in the pants it would be to Lady Catherine if Elizabeth Bennet were to outrank her! 🤣
No, Darcy would not get a title. The title is passed from the male line. His mother is female and she cannot pass the Earl title to her children.
Can't happen. Titles don't pass through women (at the time; some do now but this is a modern change). The title can't go through his mother to him.
If no male heirs inherit the title, it goes extinct (reverts to the Crown, which granted it to begin with centuries ago, and could grant it in a "new creation" to an entirely different person).
IN THEORY, though, if it went extinct in Darcy's generation, the monarch COULD (probably for some amazingly important reason, like the monarch just really didn't want the title to die and wanted to reward the family for some big reason, such as saving the country from invasion, or something like that) re-grant it in a new creation to a male in a branch of the family that came from the female line. That is, Darcy or someone like him. There is absolutely nothing in the novel at least, to make us think this would be at all likely.
I still think my favorite reference to Lady Catherine de Bourgh is her appearance in Rudyard Kipling's story, "The Janeites."
Lady Electra, please thank the cats for me for letting you use their channel to make these great videos! Keep taking care of yourself!
I really enjoy your channel! It's interesting how the rules of succession differ between countries. I was reading about the German nobility (which was banned in 1919). They still claim their titles even though, technically, they lost them and are commoners now just like the rest of us. But, their rules of succession were quite different from England's when they existed.
So much new information to take in after watching this video! I love that Lady Katherine was secretly flexing her rank on us the whole time and we never realized it.
I really love listening to you while I spin or knit. Thanks for clearing this up! I had vaguely noticed the difference, but not enough to ever look it up and this was perfect.
Hi Ellie!
I'm a great fan of Pride and Prejudice and I love and appreciate work which you put on making a lot things from Austen's world much clearer.
I have learned a lot from your films and I understand the historical context of P&p much better, but two things are still bothering me.
1. If trading was so badly perceived by the upper class, why did Darcy hang out with the Bingleys? Shouldn't he despise them as much as he initially despised Lizzy's family who were in trade?
2. I understand why Caroline Bingley still lives with her brother as an unmarried woman, but why does their married sister do the same? Do she and her husband do not have their own home?
If it is possible, I would love to see films about these topics one day. I promise that I will like and comment them! :)
(Sorry if my English is not very good, I hope you will be able to understand main thoughts despite the mistakes).
It was *direct* connection to ‘trade’ that was looked down on the most - by the time the Bingleys’ dad inherited, he’d created some distance- at least enough to get his kids a fancy education with his money*
Like the ancient Romans- if you were an owner of a business, & had middle-men in management- to report to you, that was fine (but direct participation meant you could never rise, as it was considered ‘degrading’) - it was even better if you sold your direct business concerns, as Sir Lucas did.
The aristocracy & gentry measured wealth predominantly through land ownership & investments. The Bennetts technically outrank the Bingleys in class terms (which is why Caroline looks to put Lizzie down, in Darcy’s eyes, & while she enjoys Jane’s genteel company- she’s hoping for a match between Bingley & Georgiana Darcy; such a marriage would open social doors to her)
The Bennetts *weren’t* ‘in trade’- that was one of Caroline’s ill-informed jibes- Ellie did a video on it, I think... also, Caroline’s a hypocrite- her money isn’t necessarily the lure she wants it to be...
Direct participation in trade was a massive no-no, if you were aiming to be accepted even into the gentry, let alone the aristocracy.
*I like to think that Bingley was being bullied for his background at some fancy school- & Darcy just happened to come to his rescue, & that’s how they become friends.
Caroline’s sister & husband _do_ almost certainly have their own home; he’s described as ‘a man of fashionable appetites’, I believe (it’s been more than a hot minute since I read it, though)- they hang around Bingley & Darcy, because the former is generous & giving (& probably too polite to say, ‘take a hike’, or ‘give me a break from the freeloading’)- it’s possible he only has a London residence; people thought nothing about staying with friends & relatives for ages...
The latter gives them social cachet, & entry to homes & events they might not have been able to, without him...
Also, transportation was costly, & travel difficult & even dangerous - & some people are also just tightwads, too...
Sorry for the rambling, lol...
Edited for grammar
I appreciate these videos so much! It"s like being a Regency insider ☺
Somehow I always imagine Little Ladies Catherine and Anne in the nursery in a quite similar fashion as Angelica and the toddlers in Rugrats. 🤭
Elektra is such a fancy name it should be a title
Aw thank you!!!
Point of order, 'Miss' is not a title in the UK where Austen's books are set, it is an honourific.
Wow, that's super interesting!
Ellie, Burke's Peerage was written by John Burke. There are several variations of the name, but it originated as de Burgh. They were Normans who became Marcher Lords in England and, about a hundred years after the conquest of England, went into Ireland. Some also married into royal and noble families. I have de Burghs in my family ancestry. So did Princess Diana.
That was fascinating- I love learning new things about what Austen meant it adds further depth to each re-read - thank you.
As an American with no clear understanding of official class ranking in hierarchical societies, this was incredibly helpful.
Lady Catherine was a mean lady, but she was also the person who "pushed" Darcy to propose to Lizzie for 2nd time. So Thank you Lady Catherine! 😜
Excellently explained Ellie. Had two follow up question: (1) Is it certain that Lady Catherine's father was an Earl and not a Marquess or Duke --that also entitle her to the courtesy title Lady? (2) Where did Right Honourable come from? Typically precedes Earl, Viscount, Baron/Lord/Laird in style or connotes a member of H.M.'s Privy Council. Or Was Mr Collins mistaken?
It's also used for certain Lord Mayors and other political figures, which is where I suspect her husband got his "Sir" from . Mr. Collins would NEVER be mistaken about a title.
I think we know that her father is an earl because it is mentioned during the Rosings visit that his cousin is the younger son of an earl (in the conversation between Elizabeth and Colonel Fitzwilliam). Darcy's mother and Lady Catherine's mother and Colonel Fitzwilliam's father (the current earl) are all siblings, so the two ladies are definitely daughters of the previous earl.
I am really fond of English Literature and I have been watching your videos recently because I find History and Literature fascinating. English is not my native language but I have been learning the language ever since I was young. As an avid reader that I have become recently I was determined and commited to read "Pride and Prejudice" in English. And let me tell it is my favourite book now and thanks to you content that you share I have understood the book even better by reading and also watching your videos. Thanks a lot! 😍
P.S. I am on my way to meet more Jane Austen heroines , which means I am excited to read all of her novels.
Aw! I’m so glad the videos helped and that you love Pride and Prejudice now! Also, I’m so excited for you to meet more Austen heroines! 😃✨ And it’s so amazing you can read P&P in English. I can’t read anything in other languages. 😂
@@EllieDashwood New subscriber here because just like you say in your videos if you like History and Literature subscribe. I really like to read in other languages especially in English. I just got my Jane Austen novels so a new adventure awaits to time travel back into Regency Era.
Love your videos focusing on the fine details of Regency/Victorian society! Could you do a video on "Squires"? I've always been confused as to where they fall in the hierarchy, and other videos on nobility/gentry/commoners don't really address them at all (as far as I've found anyway). I'm not as aware of them in Jane Austen's works, but they do show up in other works of literature (e.g. Squire Trelawney of "Treasure Island" or Squire Hamley in "Wives and Daughters"). Love your channel!
Hi. Squires are members of the landed gentry, the largest section of the British upper class.
Lady Elektra has a good ring to it!!! :)
Aw thank you!!!!
Imagining Darcy as the daughter of an Earl was so funny idk 😂 thanks for the laugh and for the super informative video!
When I got to her part of the book, I immediately pictured my grandmother.
It’s good to see you back.
Thanks for the great video ❤️❤️
It's always your attention to detail for me, Ellie. I love love your videos
Nicely explained! One thought, though. The name of the actual Kentish de Burghs is pronounced de bur - the gh is silent. I wonder what Jane Austen intended.
This was genuinely so fascinating! Thank you so much, I love your videos
Hope you're well and doing a bit better Ellie, thank you so much for your wonderful video, loved every second 🧡
I don't know when I learned everything that was outlined in your video but it seemed to have come from osmosis being a lover of Pride and Prejudice since my early teens. I don't understand how one could not see that Mr. Darcy, though inheriting large wealth, would not inherit a title and the reasons for this. I wonder why modern users find this book so fascinating when it cannot be easily understood, being from a time, culture, and society so divergent from modern Western society. I would like to see a roundtable discussion with of these readers (they must have read the book, no "I just saw the film" thank you.)
Those cat appearances kill me. Love this topic!
Your channel is so addictive, I love it!! ❤️
You did so well explaining!! Great job!! Loving your videos!
Aw, thank you so much!!!! Thanks for watching 😃✨
@@EllieDashwood you are welcome!!
Thank you for explaining this. I'm American. No nobility with titles here (no matter what some might claim!). ED, you have done a good job helping me to understand (albeit still foggy on it) most of it. Thank you ❤️
I love all the characters in Pride and Prejudice, Lady Catherine is one of my favourites, thank you for the video!