Me sitting here as I watch this video with a repulsor, repulsor executioner, two gladiator lancers and a Ballista just freshly primed: so what you’re saying is, I need to bring them all. 🤔
I agree, and the ironstorm stratagem that gives critical hits on 5+ would pair very nice with the sustained hits 2 on the glad Reaper and the lethal hits from techmarine enhancement
.. me sitting here with tankguard sporting a banesword, shadowsword, 2xLeman Vanquisher, 1x Tank Commander and 2x Basillisk, ordered by Lord Solar and feeling like we're about to have a nice day at the shooting range😎 (no disrespect though, this combo just seems terribly powerful)
lancers for me - their reliability without any further buffs make them too good to pass up on. but it's nice to see that the alternatives rnt lagging behind by much.
Going to agree with you here. If I’m staring down an armored Mass, then I’ll be wanting a Lancer or Two. Something about Predators, and two or three maybe, gets me feeling blasty. But maybe we let our Heretical brothers play with those now.
Running 2 executioners, 3 redemptors and a normal dread with heavy weapon teams for IH. Shit fuckin wrecks face. Will wreck more face with the detachment
I think the ballistus hits hard enough that your opponent will want to kill it. It can soak a lot of damage though making it so other things in your army don’t get shot at. So they dump fire power into it like crazy, or they ignore it and it easily gets more than it’s points back.
I've noticed in my first few games of 10th, my Ballistus usually gets ignored. Maybe because I'm outranging most things that can shoot at it, or it's just not getting enough respect as a threat. But whatever the reason it's always killing more than its points cost.
I like the tactic, though I employ it differently. If you rush multiple Vindicators at your opponents expensive units, inexperienced or young opponents will let your infantry do whatever they want.
Worth noting that the ballistus is much cheaper on real world money than the Lancer at least for now, still under £30 on eBay but the price has been creeping up.
I have 3 Ballistus for £40, 2 from ebay for £15 and one for £10 from a bits store during a 50% off sale. That's still less than a Lancer or Executioner!
As a templars player, I really like the ballistus as fire support for templars. A 6+++ makes it stupid hard to kill for the cost and effort it would take to remove it off the board, so its often one of the last things standing for me. Its hit rerolls and long standing durability make it a very reliable long range damage dealer, picking off specific targets with support from a thunderstrike.
140 us great for the ballistus and that 2+ save with AOC does make the difference for keeping your shooting platform up and running. I also think the new iron storm detachment has a couple of excellent vehicle/ dread buffs and enhancements.
A bonus of the Repulsor over the Lancer is it's ability to carry 6 troops. Pop some Melee and a Judiciar in there for some fights first and when you think you're going to get charged by Anti-Vehicle 4+ Squigg Hog Boiz you deploy them in between to create a melee screen. Maybe a little oddly specific but quite effective.
Sounds like an Important Memory for you! I just wrote a list using the Executioner filled with Bladeguard and a Judiciar. Great minds I suppose! Hope it works out for both of us!
Big investment for defence of repulsor tho! I could see it get some value if the Repulsor is going for objectives and not just going pew pew in the backline :)
@@RedCometNurse the only thing that really makes you worry for yhe ballistis is the occasional t13 target especially with the oath changes wounding those on a 5 where the others do so on a 3 is huge
Suddenly happy to have this Ballistus. I just wanted a cheap dreadnought (thanks eBay) to look cool in my army but now i think it'll see some table time--provided i finish painting everything before the next dataslate.
Bless the Emperor, I was just thinking how expand my Space Marines armoury and considering these vehicles. Crippled with indecisiveness, this video really helped me to make my mind. Gonna go with repulsor first, and lancer next time. Thank You, Auspex!
Got a Ballistus Dread in my Leviathan Box and was lucky to pick up a Gladiator recently. Really good to see both are solid, especially using the Ironstorm detachment . Minor point, but the Ballistus is considerably more manoeuvrable due to its size and 10e terrain density. Might potentially get an extra round of shooting against an optimal target versus the Gladiator having to choose a more infantry-type unit and suffering for fewer shots. A bit of an ask for a variation of a recent video, but it would be great to see the comparison using the Ironstorm detachment rule (which will see heavy use of these) with an enhanced techmarine on the backline giving them their aura.
I think it's also very important, in this discussion, to discuss devastator centurions with twinlinked lascannons. They put our more shots per point than the lancer, get wound rerolls, are arguably more durable, but don't reroll hits or damage, so they tend to be a bit swingier.
They pair especially well with the strike from the shadows 1cp strategem of vanguard spearhead which gives +1 extra AP and +1 BS when shooting greater than 12" dostance so the lascannons are -4 AP 12S hitting on 2+!!! Then detachment ability shadow masters gives them -1 to be hit and benefit of cover if being shot at beyond 12" forcing them to charge you to reliably do damage at which point you give them deepnstrike from uriel ventris so they cam use calculated feint or guerilla tactics to eitger retreat D6" wasting their charge or move back into reserves popping up on a separate objective. Then farm CP with calgar every turn to make up for the cost of that. Meanwhile you have Ballistus or Redemptor (which is incredibly tanky woth its -1 dmg to all incoming attacks amd detach ability giving it that -1 to hit amd benefit of cover for a frickin 1+ save lol) acting as dmg sponges/dostraction while scouts/inceptors/combi lieutenant etc.. take secondary objectives . You basically make a list of massive Gravis, Centurions etc.. that teleport around and are just enough of a nuisance to dostract the enemy from the objective takers (phobos, scouts etc..) stealing other objectives across the board. If they do catch on you have enough firepower to put up a good straight fight too.
Great breakdown. Thanks Auspex! Out of curiosity, I'd be interested in how some of the less-taken antitank platforms fare in comparison. Namely the Vindicator, and also the Gladiator Valiant (especially if taken in the Firestorm detachment). Just food for thought. Thanks for your content Auspex!
@stuartbanana5083 I think the Vindi is interesting in the Firestorm detachment, because a Demolisher Cannon with Assault seems fun. Plus it can fire in melee without penalty. Otherwise I'd agree though. I think it needs to drop ten points at least
My predator always over performs. The re roll damage of 1 is so useful and with triple lascannon I’ve taken down a wardog in a single round of shooting (it was damaged from an explosion though). It’s also underestimated so people don’t usually shoot it until a chunk of their army has been shot off the table.
Played a game of 10th with my space marine buddy over the weekend to see if the balance changes had made 10th playable yet. With the points drops to Marines and hefty (and thoroughly deserved) hikes to my Eldar it did look a bit intimidating after deployment. My friend was running two ballistus, a redemptor and a vindicator as his main armour, which, we discovered, loses very badly against a pair of fire prisms. Sadly 12 wounds divides very neatly by 6, the exact damage capacity of a fire prism . . . which also has 2 shots and full re-rolls. Dont hate on me btw, this is why we dont normally play 10th.
I would pick the Ballistus. Always liked walkers and it is only five points more (now) than the standard Dreadnaught for twice the ranged attacks. Getting another couple of these off eBay to give me a full complement of three. In fact 3 Ballistus Dreadnaughts; 3 Predator Destructor; 1 Vindicator is exactly 1000 points of armoured tanks
Really excited for this codex, the “ravenguard” rules are finally what they should be, good at range and easy to make a quick jump pack strike. I love running vehicles with a techmarine even if it isn’t the perfect thing to do, but I do really love the look on the new edition
Just finishing up painting the Leviathan Ballistus dread. It'll at least do a decent job of helping my army with their woeful lack of anti-tank, which made a recent game vs Guard a bit tricky. Maybe I'll get a lancer in the future though; they look rather spicy!
It would be cool if you did a similar comparison of anti tank damage for the T'au. Broadisedes, Hammerheads, and Skyrays are all pretty similarly priced and serve similar purposes, the math of which is better is really interesting
You should do a video dissecting the pros/cons of taking a Stormspeeder Thunderstrike for the +1 to wound buff vs taking a straight anti-armor piece. It looks like it can be huge for punching up. Even helping small arms punch up against things like T5 Crisis Suits. With the loss of re-roll wounds for Oath of Moment, +1 to wound buffs seem hyper valuable, especially because Twin-Linked weapons still benefit from it.
I have a lancer and that big laser cannon is just amazing. To be fair I play Templars and I get the multi melta as well just in case anything gets close
I have a lot of stuff in my army list to keep opponents from shooting on my Gladiators. Predator checks out, I tried them out in a few games. They just never really brought too much pain and when targeted, just kinda died. Never a real feels bad moment, but never shined just….seemed to exist. Ballistus looks about what I thought it was. A bit too general purpose, hopefully when they make it they make it a multipart kit and bring back Riflemen Dreads dual Twin-Linked Accelerated Autocannons would be fun.
I would have liked to see the numbers of the Lancer vs the Valiant. The lastalon might be weaker than the laser destroyer, but its side guns are multimeltas compared with storm bolters.
BS... A ballistus will save your poor bs4+ shots for 200 point on a 3+ in cover with AoC. Poor guard over and over again... For example look what they have done to the battle cannon 😂 ap1 loool strength 10 loool... FU GW
I still have 2 Lancers, 2 Invictor suits and now 1 Ballistus with 2 Techmarines. Also 3 Vindicators (I had them for years, because of Chronus) and might add 1 Repulsor. Predator has been around for ages as well. I just might do a bit of "Spear of Chronus" (even when he's gone 😑) with my tanks. And those are just a few I have... one gotta have at least couple of Land Raiders, rhinos, whirlwinds... old dreadnoughts... 😅
Well that convinced me to try and get a Ballistus. I always wanted to have Dreads as the armour option of my list. Got 2 Redemptor. I wanted to add a Ballistus for the tougher targets but wasn't sure about the damage. He might not be the best, but he'll tank shots and return in kind. Good enough for me.
The detachment rule for ironstorm is unlikely to benefit the Lancer as much, plus the techmarine enhancements will work better with the Executioner. I would go executioner or ballistus in ironstorm
Something I feel to consider is actually that the predator destructor may bring more to the table than the annihilator- Assuming you're bringing it to gun down big Oath'd targets, the Annihilator's gun doesn't gain anything due to being twin-linked, while a Destructor with six shots + those lascannon sponsons can consistently out DPS the former against those big boys (someone on r/WarhammerCompetitive did the math) while being WAY more effective at dealing with elite infantry blocks
I run 2 lancers, an executioner, and 2 redemptors. The redemptors are more durable than the ballistus but are way more broadly useful, good at any range. Executioner benefits from oath well, but it rarely gets it's ability buff because I'm almost always firing at full health oath targets in case I manage to obliterate whatever with the laser destroyer. Then lancers can either finish oath or fire at something else with half rerolls. The massive secondary firepower makes the repulsor worth it though. I always have a techmarine parked near it.
Said this in one if the comment chains but moving it to the front of it's own chain the only real big problem with the ballistus is it's strength 12 cap and having to face one of the immideitaly few t13 targets wounding them on 5's while the others can on 3's is huge.
I like my Angry Washing Machines, so I am running two Ballistus Dreadnoughts. It has a weaker gun than the Lancer, but it is much more survivable. It also has a bit higher of an OC, if that will ever matter. The versatility of the Missile Launcher can be a little helpful too, so it can function as anti-horde if it needs to. I do find it weird that none of the Ballistus weapons are heavy, otherwise a stationary Ballistus could really benefit from the +1 to hit and +1 to wound. As it stands, that +1 to hit helps get the hits (and the rerolls to hit means it basically never misses), but the Gladiator Lancer gets the +1 to wound, which means it wounds damn near everything in the game on a 3+ or better. Either way, I still like the Dreads better for their versatility and survivability.
It's not weird. Heavy is relative, and usually comes with a worse BS. Dreadnoughts are strong enough to move 'heavy' weapons without issue, so they get neither the penalty nor the bonus.
How come the redemptor isn't on the list? The macro plasma on that seems more than good against tanks, or does the slightly lower strength mean its not a competitor? (Noob here, apologies haha)
Everyone sleeps on the vindicator. Bad range but you push it into the middle and it’s flat mean to any target plus doesn’t care if it’s charged - not to mention T11 and 2+ sv
Honestly what this tells me is that my predators still have table presence. Cheap and almost as effective tanks to spare points elsewhere in my army lists.
I have had a lot of success with the Ballistus, Redeemer, Repulsor combo. Ballistus will be damn near unkillable especially in cover. And the transport capacity of the redeemer and Repulsor are worth it. The regular Repulsor is what 190 now which is 30 points cheaper than the executioner.And the dread is 140 points which is 20 points cheaper and you get a 2+ save vs a 3+ of the Lancer, I guess you can’t go wrong with either, I just love using the dread for salamanders. That gives you another 50 points to play with.
The gladiator looks good against vehicles but once you have to attack infantry it falls very short; I was expecting an analysis of the centurions since in my opinion they stand out well given the loss of the wound re-roll by oath of moment
I love the ballistus and always have and despite not being the best shooter it should survive better than the others and I think that's the most important due to the fact the enemies will fire back
Storm Speeder Thunderstrike is the best tank killer in the index. The only fact that it gives +1 to wound (for your entire army) against an monster/vehicule is basically insance
Anything with re-rolls wins out...While the Lancer lost it's full re-rolls, it's still one of the most accurate and reliable unit in the book. Auto-include if you like space marine tanks.
Now to wait for the Gladiator to be restocked and the Ballistus to get a standalone kit. Knowing GW and the Brutalis, probably gonna take more than 1 year
But in order to run the Razorbacks you have to run Tactical Squads or Devastator Squads. Emphasizing the crappy rules preventing you from embarking Intercessors in Razorbacks or Rhinos. 😑
@@RedCometNurseDevastator squad is pretty cool now. if you want use only primaris, use impulsor, and don't buy old tracked vehicles. Все любители "трускейл" настолько наивны?
@@RedCometNurse devastators are not that bad he'll the tactical is not even that bad people just annoyed you can't field them as 5 man's they hate paying for 10 man. Grav cannons on the devastators are honestly great against vehicles and passable against heavy infantry granted they suck against monsters but oh well. And Lascannons are solid enough. Other weapon. Horses for the devastators are not that hot. I personally do not rate plasma as high with out the oath wound rerolls strength is just to low and the risk of killing your own models is just meh plasma better on vehicles you can afford to take a damage more then you can afford to lose a plasma equipped infantry model
@@xerty5502 What am I missing with grav cannons? The anti-vehicle is obviously nice, but the -1 AP makes them poor against armour. Oh, wait... 3 attacks. How did I miss that?
@@inquisitorMence yep not amazing but I have horrible luck with plasma to the poi t I do not use it for me I just kill my own models and accomplish nothing so never touch plasma
For my Ironstorm spearhead list, I am currently running one of each of the top 3, plus a Reaper that just shreds infantry... Still not sure if I keep my Redeemer or replace it with a 2nd Executionner
Predator destructor - the AC is good vs terminators and the str9 makes it ok vs armour. Put on two lascannons a storm bolter and a hk. It’s a jack of all traits master of none. I would pair it with a ballistus But also a classic dread could make a big change in a shooting SM due to aura.
When i looked for tanks i went straight for the predator class not knowing anything about gladiator tanks at all. Got my three and while ill admit they do lack in the factors that the other three do have. They are slightly cheaper if your going for three of a kind and with a total of 9 lascannons three of which get a wound rerole? Still pretty damn good for the cost if anything could help them its at most a like 10 point decrease so that running three would save you 60 points as compared to 30 at the current state lines
@@Selendrile Oh, right. 9 lascannons, duh. I forgot people seem to prefer the Annihilator. I mean, I like it in a vacuum, but the Destructor has a niche where the Annihilator doesn't. I tend to forgot it exists :/
Fun fact: the Deredeo dreadnoughts armed with the Twin heavy lascannon battery and Aiolos missile launcher will have a nearly identical effect as running a Balistus dreadnought, also, Deredeo strike and Balistus strike are the same ability, so In crusades allowing legends units you can practically field five Balistus dreads
Lancer just out performs the balistarius in consistency. But the ballistarius does have more versatility. Lancer takes my vote as i find it can just delete stuff across the map with much more ease. With a built-in reroll and a techmarine, it can just lay waste to anything thrown its way.
I still take the Lancer over the Ballistus because neither get -1 damage, and the Lancer has access to the Smokescreen stratagem. For 2CP, it can get surprisingly hard to kill. Just yesterday in a tournament, my Lancer tanked three rounds of Darklance shooting pretty reliably with Smokescreen + AoC + Benefits of Cover. Also with that Smokescreen strat, you have a little more leeway with positioning, because you can give yourself Benefits of Cover even if you're out in the open, which you can't do with Ballistus.
I run Predators and they clap. A lot of people sleep on em but when you pair them with Incursors and a Thunderstrike Speeder they will slap HARD. Hitting on 2s and wounding most tanks and monsters on 2s is gross and for 130 Pts they aren't bad at all.
as I said many times before, there is no either or. you just take both. they are the two best datasheets for the cost in maybe the entire game. IF you for some reason can only take a single model, you ALWAYS go with the lancer first obviously. it is the best firing platform after the fireprism and before the brigand. (for its cost) but in a dedicated vehicle list yo ualways take at least 4-5 of lancers/ballistus. Executioner same as the redemptor is never worth taking. it costs to much for what it does, YES it does have a lot of weapons. but the weapons it has (from the lancer and reaper) are only good because of the rules the models have. getting sustained 2 vs infantry and rerolling a hit, (now tremediously important) a wound, and a damage is what makes the laser destroyer so deadly. the executioner lacking both of these rules just makes the guns very unreliable and not worth the extra cost, and it issn't really that much tougher against alot of armies. and all the million trash 0ap shots are garbage anyway. you can literally take 2x3 inceptors instead, and I think you should always do that. the annihilaotr is cheap yes, but also very lacking in consistancy, it is good for other armies who dont have good anti tank, for example death guard are actually quite happy about them, but space marines just have better options. BUT the destructor on the other hand is maybe very tempting now as an anti elite tank. 6 D:3 shots with -2ap and potentially S:10 in firestorm assault. and also 6 hits at 5-2 2 is pretty nice for a tanky 130 pts.
Its the redundancy I value the most in the Lancer, their ability makes them incredibly reliable even outside of oaths targets. Rerolling a 1 for damange into a 6? Oh boy...
My Leviathan box didn’t come with a Lancer, so I’ll be running the Ballistus lol
Incroyable.
I started with that box and the more you play with it the more you see how nothing really goes together in that box. Kinda a waste really
Me sitting here as I watch this video with a repulsor, repulsor executioner, two gladiator lancers and a Ballista just freshly primed: so what you’re saying is, I need to bring them all. 🤔
Spoken like a true Iron Hands. :D
Would run a Lancer and a Reaper... Not 2 lancers, you already have enough AT as it is.
I agree, and the ironstorm stratagem that gives critical hits on 5+ would pair very nice with the sustained hits 2 on the glad Reaper and the lethal hits from techmarine enhancement
@@albro8853 you may have a point. If anything. I need another tech marine 🤔
.. me sitting here with tankguard sporting a banesword, shadowsword, 2xLeman Vanquisher, 1x Tank Commander and 2x Basillisk, ordered by Lord Solar and feeling like we're about to have a nice day at the shooting range😎 (no disrespect though, this combo just seems terribly powerful)
This is the best internal balance for SM Armour in memory, nice job!
lancers for me - their reliability without any further buffs make them too good to pass up on. but it's nice to see that the alternatives rnt lagging behind by much.
Going to agree with you here. If I’m staring down an armored Mass, then I’ll be wanting a Lancer or Two.
Something about Predators, and two or three maybe, gets me feeling blasty. But maybe we let our Heretical brothers play with those now.
Y'all seem to have forgotten the vindicator
Running 2 executioners, 3 redemptors and a normal dread with heavy weapon teams for IH. Shit fuckin wrecks face. Will wreck more face with the detachment
I think the ballistus hits hard enough that your opponent will want to kill it. It can soak a lot of damage though making it so other things in your army don’t get shot at. So they dump fire power into it like crazy, or they ignore it and it easily gets more than it’s points back.
I've noticed in my first few games of 10th, my Ballistus usually gets ignored. Maybe because I'm outranging most things that can shoot at it, or it's just not getting enough respect as a threat. But whatever the reason it's always killing more than its points cost.
I like the tactic, though I employ it differently. If you rush multiple Vindicators at your opponents expensive units, inexperienced or young opponents will let your infantry do whatever they want.
so basically using it as a distraction carnifex then?
@@BrandonL337 exactly 💯.
@@BrandonL337 it's not to be a Richard, they just look so damn good with all the bells a whistles painted up.
Awesome! Please do a version for infantry that includes the Repulsor, Repulsor Executioner, Redemptor, and Gladiator Reaper! :D
And Predator with Autocannon
+1. I'd love to see this.
Ooooh, this would be nice
I came here to ask this 😂
+1 from me!
Worth noting that the ballistus is much cheaper on real world money than the Lancer at least for now, still under £30 on eBay but the price has been creeping up.
This video reminded me I still needed to jump on eBay and pick a couple up 😅
Yeah got mine for £25 each off ebay, sometimes its good to play marines.
I have 3 Ballistus for £40, 2 from ebay for £15 and one for £10 from a bits store during a 50% off sale.
That's still less than a Lancer or Executioner!
As a templars player, I really like the ballistus as fire support for templars. A 6+++ makes it stupid hard to kill for the cost and effort it would take to remove it off the board, so its often one of the last things standing for me.
Its hit rerolls and long standing durability make it a very reliable long range damage dealer, picking off specific targets with support from a thunderstrike.
as a templay player you get gladiators with extra meltas.
Run max of both, make opponent cry
My preferred way of building lists 😅
Who needs friends when you can win games, amirite?
Doubly so if they play sororitas 😅
Run them with a primaris ancient you can fit it in a 1k list
GW terrain layouts would like a word with you….
Fantastic breakdown. Owning the dread and two predators, super nice to know what I’m missing from the lancer.
That sounds like a great Trio to me!
Want only for the shiny “new” toys.
140 us great for the ballistus and that 2+ save with AOC does make the difference for keeping your shooting platform up and running. I also think the new iron storm detachment has a couple of excellent vehicle/ dread buffs and enhancements.
A bonus of the Repulsor over the Lancer is it's ability to carry 6 troops. Pop some Melee and a Judiciar in there for some fights first and when you think you're going to get charged by Anti-Vehicle 4+ Squigg Hog Boiz you deploy them in between to create a melee screen. Maybe a little oddly specific but quite effective.
Sounds like an Important Memory for you!
I just wrote a list using the Executioner filled with Bladeguard and a Judiciar. Great minds I suppose!
Hope it works out for both of us!
@@stuartbanana5083 my brother plays orks and I have post traumatic squigghog disorder
*its
Big investment for defence of repulsor tho! I could see it get some value if the Repulsor is going for objectives and not just going pew pew in the backline :)
@@Johns3n yeah for sure, but we usually play deadmatch rather than objectives, and a repulsor is a lot of death in a deathmatch.
Gonna go with that mobile firepower the ballistus offers plus that missile array isn’t terrible
The Gladiator is more mobile than the Ballistus, is it not (Move 10" vs Move 8")? Still, the missile launcher's versatility is a good draw.
@@RedCometNurse the only thing that really makes you worry for yhe ballistis is the occasional t13 target especially with the oath changes wounding those on a 5 where the others do so on a 3 is huge
I've had good luck with Executioners and Ballistus. Wish I could fool around with the Gladiator, but it's sold out.
True it's unavailable in most places 😅
Suddenly happy to have this Ballistus. I just wanted a cheap dreadnought (thanks eBay) to look cool in my army but now i think it'll see some table time--provided i finish painting everything before the next dataslate.
Always the problem isn’t it. XD
@@TheTommyFrench some day I'll finish this damned Kayvaan conversion I s2g lol
Bless the Emperor, I was just thinking how expand my Space Marines armoury and considering these vehicles. Crippled with indecisiveness, this video really helped me to make my mind. Gonna go with repulsor first, and lancer next time. Thank You, Auspex!
This is such a perfectly timed video, I was just trying to decide this last night
Got a Ballistus Dread in my Leviathan Box and was lucky to pick up a Gladiator recently. Really good to see both are solid, especially using the Ironstorm detachment . Minor point, but the Ballistus is considerably more manoeuvrable due to its size and 10e terrain density. Might potentially get an extra round of shooting against an optimal target versus the Gladiator having to choose a more infantry-type unit and suffering for fewer shots.
A bit of an ask for a variation of a recent video, but it would be great to see the comparison using the Ironstorm detachment rule (which will see heavy use of these) with an enhanced techmarine on the backline giving them their aura.
I think it's also very important, in this discussion, to discuss devastator centurions with twinlinked lascannons. They put our more shots per point than the lancer, get wound rerolls, are arguably more durable, but don't reroll hits or damage, so they tend to be a bit swingier.
They pair especially well with the strike from the shadows 1cp strategem of vanguard spearhead which gives +1 extra AP and +1 BS when shooting greater than 12" dostance so the lascannons are -4 AP 12S hitting on 2+!!!
Then detachment ability shadow masters gives them -1 to be hit and benefit of cover if being shot at beyond 12" forcing them to charge you to reliably do damage at which point you give them deepnstrike from uriel ventris so they cam use calculated feint or guerilla tactics to eitger retreat D6" wasting their charge or move back into reserves popping up on a separate objective. Then farm CP with calgar every turn to make up for the cost of that. Meanwhile you have Ballistus or Redemptor (which is incredibly tanky woth its -1 dmg to all incoming attacks amd detach ability giving it that -1 to hit amd benefit of cover for a frickin 1+ save lol) acting as dmg sponges/dostraction while scouts/inceptors/combi lieutenant etc.. take secondary objectives .
You basically make a list of massive Gravis, Centurions etc.. that teleport around and are just enough of a nuisance to dostract the enemy from the objective takers (phobos, scouts etc..) stealing other objectives across the board. If they do catch on you have enough firepower to put up a good straight fight too.
Great breakdown. Thanks Auspex!
Out of curiosity, I'd be interested in how some of the less-taken antitank platforms fare in comparison. Namely the Vindicator, and also the Gladiator Valiant (especially if taken in the Firestorm detachment). Just food for thought. Thanks for your content Auspex!
I’d say Vindicator is just too pricey for what you get.
Valiant sounds interesting in Firestorm, I agree. Hmmmmmm
@stuartbanana5083 I think the Vindi is interesting in the Firestorm detachment, because a Demolisher Cannon with Assault seems fun. Plus it can fire in melee without penalty. Otherwise I'd agree though. I think it needs to drop ten points at least
My predator always over performs. The re roll damage of 1 is so useful and with triple lascannon I’ve taken down a wardog in a single round of shooting (it was damaged from an explosion though). It’s also underestimated so people don’t usually shoot it until a chunk of their army has been shot off the table.
Great analysis, thanks for the insight!
Played a game of 10th with my space marine buddy over the weekend to see if the balance changes had made 10th playable yet. With the points drops to Marines and hefty (and thoroughly deserved) hikes to my Eldar it did look a bit intimidating after deployment. My friend was running two ballistus, a redemptor and a vindicator as his main armour, which, we discovered, loses very badly against a pair of fire prisms. Sadly 12 wounds divides very neatly by 6, the exact damage capacity of a fire prism . . . which also has 2 shots and full re-rolls. Dont hate on me btw, this is why we dont normally play 10th.
Almost done painting my Ballistus, stoked to use it!
I would pick the Ballistus. Always liked walkers and it is only five points more (now) than the standard Dreadnaught for twice the ranged attacks.
Getting another couple of these off eBay to give me a full complement of three.
In fact 3 Ballistus Dreadnaughts; 3 Predator Destructor; 1 Vindicator is exactly 1000 points of armoured tanks
What about the name Landraider vs. these guys? 4 lascannon shots, Multi-melta, and a Hunter-killer on a 16 wound chassis with 2+ sv
Really excited for this codex, the “ravenguard” rules are finally what they should be, good at range and easy to make a quick jump pack strike. I love running vehicles with a techmarine even if it isn’t the perfect thing to do, but I do really love the look on the new edition
you should try the predator destructor with lascannon sponsors, it is really good
Just as a topic this is an excellent video to have made. Thank you Auspex.
Just finishing up painting the Leviathan Ballistus dread. It'll at least do a decent job of helping my army with their woeful lack of anti-tank, which made a recent game vs Guard a bit tricky. Maybe I'll get a lancer in the future though; they look rather spicy!
I feel from play the predator is amazing. Anything hitting at S 14, even once, is great now.
haven't ran a ballistus yet, but my lancer is a straight up gangster. averages at least double its wounds in output every match.
It would be cool if you did a similar comparison of anti tank damage for the T'au. Broadisedes, Hammerheads, and Skyrays are all pretty similarly priced and serve similar purposes, the math of which is better is really interesting
Dude ! I REAAAALLY LOVE theese comparisons ! Keep it up man ❤
You should do a video dissecting the pros/cons of taking a Stormspeeder Thunderstrike for the +1 to wound buff vs taking a straight anti-armor piece. It looks like it can be huge for punching up. Even helping small arms punch up against things like T5 Crisis Suits. With the loss of re-roll wounds for Oath of Moment, +1 to wound buffs seem hyper valuable, especially because Twin-Linked weapons still benefit from it.
I have a lancer and that big laser cannon is just amazing. To be fair I play Templars and I get the multi melta as well just in case anything gets close
I have a lot of stuff in my army list to keep opponents from shooting on my Gladiators.
Predator checks out, I tried them out in a few games. They just never really brought too much pain and when targeted, just kinda died. Never a real feels bad moment, but never shined just….seemed to exist.
Ballistus looks about what I thought it was. A bit too general purpose, hopefully when they make it they make it a multipart kit and bring back Riflemen Dreads dual Twin-Linked Accelerated Autocannons would be fun.
That was my favorite Dread of all time I think. Those crazy long guns were excellent
I love my lancer, even though the only time I’ve used it saw it getting shot off the table in the first turn by 6 Killa Kans 😂
Auspex my man. You're literally a gift to the warhammer community.
Tldr : all 3 are really good, and that's great honestly.
My Ballistus dreadnought died to a single shot from a magna-rail cannon on a Hekaton Land Fortress this week!
I would have liked to see the numbers of the Lancer vs the Valiant. The lastalon might be weaker than the laser destroyer, but its side guns are multimeltas compared with storm bolters.
Shout out for the humble Vindicator! Ask any guard player and they'll tell you how we'll demolisher cannons slap against armoured targets! 💪
BS... A ballistus will save your poor bs4+ shots for 200 point on a 3+ in cover with AoC. Poor guard over and over again... For example look what they have done to the battle cannon 😂 ap1 loool strength 10 loool... FU GW
Personally, I'd go for the Ballistus. But that's because it's the only model I own out of the bunch
I still have 2 Lancers, 2 Invictor suits and now 1 Ballistus with 2 Techmarines. Also 3 Vindicators (I had them for years, because of Chronus) and might add 1 Repulsor. Predator has been around for ages as well. I just might do a bit of "Spear of Chronus" (even when he's gone 😑) with my tanks.
And those are just a few I have... one gotta have at least couple of Land Raiders, rhinos, whirlwinds... old dreadnoughts... 😅
Well that convinced me to try and get a Ballistus. I always wanted to have Dreads as the armour option of my list. Got 2 Redemptor. I wanted to add a Ballistus for the tougher targets but wasn't sure about the damage.
He might not be the best, but he'll tank shots and return in kind. Good enough for me.
The detachment rule for ironstorm is unlikely to benefit the Lancer as much, plus the techmarine enhancements will work better with the Executioner.
I would go executioner or ballistus in ironstorm
I’m a sucker for the dreadnoughts just for the style. Now if we had a land raider I’d have decisions to make. Love the looks of that old beast.
I've got 2 ballistus and 1 Redemptor, a block of Dread, called "Fuck, Around and Find Out" it sends a message on that side of the table.
Took a 3 day cruise missed 40 auspex videos
Math completely different with Iron Hands. With the lethal hits aura and every unit getting rerolls, it's ballistus and executioner all the way.
Something I feel to consider is actually that the predator destructor may bring more to the table than the annihilator-
Assuming you're bringing it to gun down big Oath'd targets, the Annihilator's gun doesn't gain anything due to being twin-linked, while a Destructor with six shots + those lascannon sponsons can consistently out DPS the former against those big boys (someone on r/WarhammerCompetitive did the math) while being WAY more effective at dealing with elite infantry blocks
I run 2 lancers, an executioner, and 2 redemptors. The redemptors are more durable than the ballistus but are way more broadly useful, good at any range. Executioner benefits from oath well, but it rarely gets it's ability buff because I'm almost always firing at full health oath targets in case I manage to obliterate whatever with the laser destroyer. Then lancers can either finish oath or fire at something else with half rerolls. The massive secondary firepower makes the repulsor worth it though. I always have a techmarine parked near it.
Said this in one if the comment chains but moving it to the front of it's own chain the only real big problem with the ballistus is it's strength 12 cap and having to face one of the immideitaly few t13 targets wounding them on 5's while the others can on 3's is huge.
Test (2000 Points)
Space Marines
Dark Angels
Unforgiven Task Force
Strike Force (2000 Points)
CHARACTERS
Belial (100 Points)
• Warlord
• 1x Master-crafted storm bolter
1x The Sword of Silence
Chaplain in Terminator Armour (90 Points)
• 1x Crozius arcanum
1x Storm bolter
Deathwing Strikemaster (90 Points)
• 1x Master-crafted power weapon
1x Storm bolter
Librarian in Terminator Armour (105 Points)
• 1x Force weapon
1x Smite
• Enhancements: Stubborn Tenacity
OTHER DATASHEETS
Ballistus Dreadnought (170 Points)
• 1x Armoured feet
1x Ballistus lascannon
1x Ballistus missile launcher
1x Twin storm bolter
Brutalis Dreadnought (220 Points)
• 1x Brutalis talons
1x Twin Icarus ironhail heavy stubber
1x Twin multi-melta
Deathwing Command Squad (430 Points)
• 1x Watcher in the Dark
• 1x Deathwing Ancient
• 1x Power fist
1x Storm bolter
• 1x Deathwing Apothecary
• 1x Chainfist
1x Storm bolter
• 1x Deathwing Champion
• 1x Halberd of Caliban
• 7x Deathwing Command Terminator
• 7x Storm Shield
7x Thunder hammer
Deathwing Knights (235 Points)
• 1x Watcher in the Dark
• 1x Knight Master
• 1x Flail of the Unforgiven
• 4x Deathwing Knight
• 4x Mace of absolution
Deathwing Knights (235 Points)
• 1x Watcher in the Dark
• 1x Knight Master
• 1x Flail of the Unforgiven
• 4x Deathwing Knight
• 4x Mace of absolution
Gladiator Lancer (145 Points)
• 1x Armoured hull
2x Fragstorm grenade launcher
1x Icarus rocket pod
1x Ironhail heavy stubber
1x Lancer laser destroyer
Infiltrator Squad (90 Points)
• 1x Infiltrator Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Marksman bolt carbine
• 4x Infiltrator
• 4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Helix Gauntlet
1x Infiltrator Comms Array
4x Marksman bolt carbine
Infiltrator Squad (90 Points)
• 1x Infiltrator Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Marksman bolt carbine
• 4x Infiltrator
• 4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Helix Gauntlet
1x Infiltrator Comms Array
4x Marksman bolt carbine
I like my Angry Washing Machines, so I am running two Ballistus Dreadnoughts. It has a weaker gun than the Lancer, but it is much more survivable. It also has a bit higher of an OC, if that will ever matter. The versatility of the Missile Launcher can be a little helpful too, so it can function as anti-horde if it needs to. I do find it weird that none of the Ballistus weapons are heavy, otherwise a stationary Ballistus could really benefit from the +1 to hit and +1 to wound. As it stands, that +1 to hit helps get the hits (and the rerolls to hit means it basically never misses), but the Gladiator Lancer gets the +1 to wound, which means it wounds damn near everything in the game on a 3+ or better. Either way, I still like the Dreads better for their versatility and survivability.
It's not weird. Heavy is relative, and usually comes with a worse BS. Dreadnoughts are strong enough to move 'heavy' weapons without issue, so they get neither the penalty nor the bonus.
How come the redemptor isn't on the list? The macro plasma on that seems more than good against tanks, or does the slightly lower strength mean its not a competitor? (Noob here, apologies haha)
got a Gladiator to build, but in doubt on what kind i should build it is.
what is good atm ??
Lancer for sure
@@stuartbanana5083 ty m8, where thinking about that, that where the way to go :)
What about the Vindicator? I think it might fit in well into this group.
Everyone sleeps on the vindicator. Bad range but you push it into the middle and it’s flat mean to any target plus doesn’t care if it’s charged - not to mention T11 and 2+ sv
I have one shot my friend's screamer killer twice with the lancer laser from across the table. 72" is pretty scary (depending on terrain)
I would like to see an efficiency metric, high-toughness wounds, per point; or something like that?! It seems like the Ballistus is very efficient..
Honestly what this tells me is that my predators still have table presence. Cheap and almost as effective tanks to spare points elsewhere in my army lists.
I have had a lot of success with the Ballistus, Redeemer, Repulsor combo. Ballistus will be damn near unkillable especially in cover. And the transport capacity of the redeemer and Repulsor are worth it. The regular Repulsor is what 190 now which is 30 points cheaper than the executioner.And the dread is 140 points which is 20 points cheaper and you get a 2+ save vs a 3+ of the Lancer, I guess you can’t go wrong with either, I just love using the dread for salamanders. That gives you another 50 points to play with.
Im rolling with a Sicaran Venator. A) Gorgeous model, B) a saucy anti tank gun, 3 decent support guns and a HKM but C) legends are great.
The gladiator looks good against vehicles but once you have to attack infantry it falls very short; I was expecting an analysis of the centurions since in my opinion they stand out well given the loss of the wound re-roll by oath of moment
Thanks Auspex that is very helpful
I love Dreads, so I will probably mix between Lancers and Ballistus as points allow
I like to run both and I’ll rapid ingress my 10 man terms and 5 of them have chainfist to target any transport or small vehicles.
With the points drop on the dread, that’s my preferred choice. I’d rather run big mechs over tanks anyway (I enjoy painting them way more).
Vindicator not even a mention 😢
What are your thoughts on the Centurion Devastators?
I love the ballistus and always have and despite not being the best shooter it should survive better than the others and I think that's the most important due to the fact the enemies will fire back
for me, all units are interesting but it's 2 lancers every day : with iron hands detachment it's 2 re-rolls each time they shot.
Storm Speeder Thunderstrike is the best tank killer in the index.
The only fact that it gives +1 to wound (for your entire army) against an monster/vehicule is basically insance
I got myself a Kratos even tho it's in legends now u love the mini
Anything with re-rolls wins out...While the Lancer lost it's full re-rolls, it's still one of the most accurate and reliable unit in the book. Auto-include if you like space marine tanks.
In terms of durability, it's also worth remembering that the tanks can all pop smoke, and the ballistus can't, which is a huge durability buff.
I want to try 3 Predators An. I like them being the cheapewr option.
And possibly under estimated foot not being quite as “shiny” and bristling with arms
Now to wait for the Gladiator to be restocked and the Ballistus to get a standalone kit. Knowing GW and the Brutalis, probably gonna take more than 1 year
im tempted to run a full dread army with 3 tech marines for a 1,000 point army. would be my first army
Well I'll go with my kit bashed repelsor executioner + 2 Razorbacks cause they're what I have 😂
But in order to run the Razorbacks you have to run Tactical Squads or Devastator Squads. Emphasizing the crappy rules preventing you from embarking Intercessors in Razorbacks or Rhinos. 😑
@@RedCometNurseDevastator squad is pretty cool now. if you want use only primaris, use impulsor, and don't buy old tracked vehicles.
Все любители "трускейл" настолько наивны?
@@RedCometNurse devastators are not that bad he'll the tactical is not even that bad people just annoyed you can't field them as 5 man's they hate paying for 10 man. Grav cannons on the devastators are honestly great against vehicles and passable against heavy infantry granted they suck against monsters but oh well. And Lascannons are solid enough. Other weapon. Horses for the devastators are not that hot. I personally do not rate plasma as high with out the oath wound rerolls strength is just to low and the risk of killing your own models is just meh plasma better on vehicles you can afford to take a damage more then you can afford to lose a plasma equipped infantry model
@@xerty5502 What am I missing with grav cannons? The anti-vehicle is obviously nice, but the -1 AP makes them poor against armour.
Oh, wait... 3 attacks. How did I miss that?
@@inquisitorMence yep not amazing but I have horrible luck with plasma to the poi t I do not use it for me I just kill my own models and accomplish nothing so never touch plasma
For my Ironstorm spearhead list, I am currently running one of each of the top 3, plus a Reaper that just shreds infantry... Still not sure if I keep my Redeemer or replace it with a 2nd Executionner
I got a rep exec, just ordered a Gladiator kit, thinking either lancer or reaper
Both…2 lancers or 1 and a repulsor executioner or 2 and a ballistus. Effective and lethal
Predator destructor - the AC is good vs terminators and the str9 makes it ok vs armour. Put on two lascannons a storm bolter and a hk. It’s a jack of all traits master of none. I would pair it with a ballistus
But also a classic dread could make a big change in a shooting SM due to aura.
I have 2 levi dreads. 1 repulsar executioner... should I buy any more tanks?
Bring stormspeeder thunderstrike if you want more anti-tank and anti-monster punch
Curious about how the Stormspeeder Thunderstrike would have compared, especially since it dropped to 160.
i'm hoping one day the Ballistus is solid standalone but It might be $80 like the Brutalis which is insane.
When i looked for tanks i went straight for the predator class not knowing anything about gladiator tanks at all. Got my three and while ill admit they do lack in the factors that the other three do have. They are slightly cheaper if your going for three of a kind and with a total of 9 lascannons three of which get a wound rerole? Still pretty damn good for the cost if anything could help them its at most a like 10 point decrease so that running three would save you 60 points as compared to 30 at the current state lines
No, they get damage reroll, not a wound reroll. Would would be much better, unfortunately.
@@inquisitorMence @michaelsantangelo1875 is refering to twin-linked baked into the STR14 shot on the main gun.
@@Selendrile Oh, right. 9 lascannons, duh. I forgot people seem to prefer the Annihilator.
I mean, I like it in a vacuum, but the Destructor has a niche where the Annihilator doesn't. I tend to forgot it exists :/
Fun fact: the Deredeo dreadnoughts armed with the Twin heavy lascannon battery and Aiolos missile launcher will have a nearly identical effect as running a Balistus dreadnought, also, Deredeo strike and Balistus strike are the same ability, so In crusades allowing legends units you can practically field five Balistus dreads
Lancer just out performs the balistarius in consistency. But the ballistarius does have more versatility. Lancer takes my vote as i find it can just delete stuff across the map with much more ease. With a built-in reroll and a techmarine, it can just lay waste to anything thrown its way.
I still take the Lancer over the Ballistus because neither get -1 damage, and the Lancer has access to the Smokescreen stratagem. For 2CP, it can get surprisingly hard to kill. Just yesterday in a tournament, my Lancer tanked three rounds of Darklance shooting pretty reliably with Smokescreen + AoC + Benefits of Cover.
Also with that Smokescreen strat, you have a little more leeway with positioning, because you can give yourself Benefits of Cover even if you're out in the open, which you can't do with Ballistus.
Well, seeing as i only have the Ballistus, I'll be using that one now
I run Predators and they clap. A lot of people sleep on em but when you pair them with Incursors and a Thunderstrike Speeder they will slap HARD. Hitting on 2s and wounding most tanks and monsters on 2s is gross and for 130 Pts they aren't bad at all.
Actual answer: Vindicator.
But what about the Vindicator and its Demolisher Cannon?
Predator will probably be legendary soon anyway 😢
as I said many times before, there is no either or. you just take both. they are the two best datasheets for the cost in maybe the entire game.
IF you for some reason can only take a single model, you ALWAYS go with the lancer first obviously. it is the best firing platform after the fireprism and before the brigand. (for its cost)
but in a dedicated vehicle list yo ualways take at least 4-5 of lancers/ballistus.
Executioner same as the redemptor is never worth taking. it costs to much for what it does, YES it does have a lot of weapons. but the weapons it has (from the lancer and reaper) are only good because of the rules the models have. getting sustained 2 vs infantry and rerolling a hit, (now tremediously important) a wound, and a damage is what makes the laser destroyer so deadly. the executioner lacking both of these rules just makes the guns very unreliable and not worth the extra cost, and it issn't really that much tougher against alot of armies. and all the million trash 0ap shots are garbage anyway. you can literally take 2x3 inceptors instead, and I think you should always do that.
the annihilaotr is cheap yes, but also very lacking in consistancy, it is good for other armies who dont have good anti tank, for example death guard are actually quite happy about them, but space marines just have better options.
BUT the destructor on the other hand is maybe very tempting now as an anti elite tank. 6 D:3 shots with -2ap and potentially S:10 in firestorm assault. and also 6 hits at 5-2 2 is pretty nice for a tanky 130 pts.
Its the redundancy I value the most in the Lancer, their ability makes them incredibly reliable even outside of oaths targets. Rerolling a 1 for damange into a 6? Oh boy...