I really like Dr Yeoman. I love listening to him and contemplating, sometimes when walking outside in nature. So grateful for your videos. Thank you very much.
This channel is so informative, so real, so raw, so revealing....and I really commend you for creating and developing it in the manner you have because it is going to help so very many people. Just imagine people who live in areas of the world where there isn't even 1 therapist, much less someone who actually possesses the depth and breadth of knowledge about personality psychopathology that is required to NOT be absolutely terrified when someone is experiencing BPD rage (and for a neurotypical person who doesn't have a Cluster B disorder, if it absolutely SHOCKING, confounding, terrifying, and almost surreal to encounter). Imagine being that person in a small, midwestern town...being alone....suffering from BPD...and having no one who understands what it is or why you feel the way you feel. I can't even imagine how many adolescents and adults around the world go through this, completely alone, and just maybe they come across this channel and suddenly, they realize they're not alone and that there's a name for what is going on in their head all the time, and that others might understand. RUclips is such a lifeline for so many, and especially during this global pandemic. Please keep doing what you're doing.
I think this is one of the more complex models of treatment for personality disorder, but I think its one of the superior approaches because it's design to address identity diffusion, which is considered to be at the heart of a personality disorder. Also, providers who are utilizing this approach much make sure that they don't have any major emotional issues of their own that are active because it can make it extremely difficult to maintain under these intense conditions in session while transference/countertransference is unfolding.
I just love your show!!! I have a masters in counseling and a doctorate in clinical psychology. These shows are one of the best around. I am really quite proud for you to have started and maintained this website!!! Please keep going!! Your great! -m
I feel compelled to declare how grateful i feel of your uploading of this remarkable man’s candid expressions about his 40 years of experience, combined with his obviously amazing intellect. OMG - If I had understood all this, I might not have made the mistakes I have made. Thank you. I just hope you young ones out there appreciate that those of us who are baby boomers, are trying - we just didn’t have the resources you have.
One-mind psychology and especially psychotherapy is based on the Freudian and the older Kleinian models of psychotherapy - projective identification being seen primarily as something being done by one person, kind of like Freud's definition of projection, but with an expansion of what type of mental contents it would be possible to project. Freud thought projection was primarily done to get rid of unwanted sexual and aggressive impulses, whereas Klein expanded what could be projected, or projectively identified, to include unwanted affective states, i.e. bad feelings, especially envy, shame, rage, hate, and so on (the very painful, negative emotions that it is so tempting to avoid and which feel so overwhelming to people who haven't had caregivers who helped them to learn how to deal with and think about these states of mind and feeling). Whereas Wilfred Bion's definition expanded projective identification to include the possibility of what Klein considered, but also a two-mind operation. That is, where Person A (the one doing the projective identification) gets rid of bad feelings, or to use the technical language, projectively identifies bad feelings, into person B, by actually acting in ways (sometimes this is with remarkable subtlety, but not always) that bring out, or evoke, the very feelings, in Person B, that Person A did not want to have. So Person B is not just believed by Person A to have the bad feelings Person A didn't want (this is the one-mind, Kleinian model), Person A is somehow doing something to actually get Person B to feel Person A's unwanted feelings. Frequent and extreme use of this type of defense is characteristic of all of the severe personality disorders, including BPD and NPD. You can find some brief explanation of this stuff on this channel in the series from Otto Kernberg.
I healed Personality disorder person who was struggles with this all her life. Took us 7 years but we got a breakthrough! There’s a so many and methods I e use to help her most importantly compassion and empathy and understanding her episodes and emotional irregularities. There’s are time I just quit on her because it can get to you and effect you at times. She will blog and write about her journey. If you are struggling with this or someone who is. There’s hope.
That is Thomas Ogdens definition of projective identification. The therapist gets a small taste of what the patient can't tolerate and the therapist waits to make interpretations when the patient is showing they are ready to receive this data.
Oh...This is a weird idea, the countertransference. Getting others to mirror and hold your emotions. I have to think about that. ...Poor young man, though. What a terrifying, sad, awful thing he went through.
Its the basis of psychoanalysis, and probably the most important discovery Freud made. Its essentially study of the relationship. In what roles we put others, while acting out our relationship dynamics. As we internalize both sides of the early relationships. Countertransference is the transference from the direction of the therapist. I think this is usually avoided.
This ability to elicit in another emotions that actually belong to the first party - is it the foundation of Projective Identification as well? Another question: the article you referred to at the beginning - could you please give a link? Thank you for your great educational work!
Here is the link and will post in description as well. www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15299732.2013.724339 - unfortunatey, there's a paywall. It was shared with me and I am wondering how I can share the PDF of the full article?
@@BorderlinerNotes Hey thanks for the link! I have downloaded it as a PDF already, via my education provider's website. I think we can't legitimately share its full text because of the copyright... Sadly.
transference is the feelings the client 'transfers' onto the therapist (it is a kind of displacement: the feelings you have towards your mother/father/siblings are being transferred onto the therapist so you see them as if they were your mother or sister...etc..the 'as if' is important. if the client thinks that the therapist is actually her mother/sister/father...etc...then she is psychotic. countertransference is the feelings that are aroused in the therapist by the client. there are two types of countertransference: 1, objective: the feelings aroused by the client through projective identification, 2, subjective countertransference: the therapist own feelings towards the client. It is really important that the therapist can differentiate between the two, so she won't confuse her own feelings with what the client projects into her. projective identification: it is part of the countertransference. as is mentioned above, it is through the mechanism of projective identification the client dumps her unbearable feelings into the therapist. it is beyond projection. when the client projects feelings onto the therapist, she attributes her own feelings to the therapist, but she is not actively eliciting those feelings in the therapist. through projective identification, however, the client induces feelings in the therapist. She pressures the therapist through verbal and non-verbal communicatoin to feel those feelings she cannot bear. That's what borderlines do all the time. Evacuating their unbearable feelings into others through projective identification. That's one of the main reasons why it is so hard to be around them. (e.g. there's a girlfriend and a boyfriend with at a party with a group of friends. girfriend is flirting heavily with another man from the group while boyfriend is watching. boyfriend feels really humiliated, but doesn't want to make a scene, so he leaves the party and goes back home on his own. after the party is over and the grilfriend gets home, the boyfriend tells her that her flirting with another man in his face made him feel sad and humiliated. Borderline/narcissitic girfriend feels of course starts to feel bad about herself because she feels guilty and ashamed, but she cannot bear it. So she evacuates these feelings into the boyfriend: she raises her voice and accuses the boyfriend of being antisocial because he left her and the group of friends without saying goodbye. When there's projective identificatoin, there's always a 'hook' in the receiver: the boyfriend is actually quite an introvert and at other occasions he didn't really want to go out with her friends. So the boyfriend starts feeling guilty and ashamed, he feels that he is the bad one, because yes, he did leave the party without saying goodbye to the friends. So although he was the one humiliated and hurt, borderline/narcissitic girfriend successfully induced the feelings of guilt and shame in him through projective identification, so she doesn't need ot feel bad. But projective identification is not always bad. It is the basis of empathy. When a friends tells you about the unfortunate things that happened to them and you start feeling sad, it is because your friend induced those feelings in you. and that's OK. we need to feel empathy towards each other. Also, the non-verbal baby communicates wth the mother through projective identification. When the baby feels hungry/in pain/uncomfortable, for the baby that's life threatening and persecuting. The baby needs to project these unbearable feelings into the mother. if the mother is responsive and can function as a container (the concept of container-contained comes from psychoanalysis, from Wilfrid Bion, and all other therapeutic modalities have co-opted it. If a therapist cannot contain the client, then she is not a good enough therapist), so if the mother can cootain the baby's unbearable feelings and think about it, feel it, do this for a suffcient amount of time and thus 'detoxify' them, process them for the baby and then project it back in a detoxified, bearable form, then the baby is contained. If the mother is a 'leaky container', and cannot detoxify the baby's projections, then what the baby will intorject is the 'nameless dread'. The concept of containing the feelings of the infant is quite similar to mentalisation. Children learn to mentalise - be aware of their own and other's internal states - because they are being accurately mentalised by adults: these adult can contain their negative feelings and can accurately mirror back the positive ones. Children develop personality disorders - I would rather say narcissistic/borderline/schizoid adaptations - because they have to adapt to inadequate caregivers who cannot provide the containing function becaus they are unresponsive/neglectful/abusive. What borderline clients need most is containment. Because they have never been contained by their caregivers. That's why they cannot regulate their emotions. Children learn to regulate their emotions and mentalise through a secure attachment with a responsive primary caregiver. Secure attachement is interactive co-regulation between mother and infant. People with narcissistic/borderline/schizoid/avoidant adaptations have never had caregivers who were securely attached and could contain their unbearable feelings. That's what is called developmental trauma. Alan N Shore is a neuro-psychoanalyst who is worth reading and a book called: 'Borderline, Narcissitic and Schizoid Adaptations - The Pursuit of Love, Admiratoin and Safety' by Elinor Greenberg. Hope this helps
@@evakinsey9641 In your example, wouldn't the flirting part be the actual projective identification? That made the boyfriend feel humiliated and jealous? And yes, this is kinda what i was thinking. That projective identification would be considered as part of the transference. Even if it can be separated as a clearly defined defence mechanism. You quite well described the origins of projective identification, and how every mechanism essentially is beneficial and normal. But can turn pathological. The empathy part i think is important, and i think is the reason why a lot of borderlines describe themselves as extremely empathetic. Because of the over use of projective identification.
I really like Dr Yeoman. I love listening to him and contemplating, sometimes when walking outside in nature. So grateful for your videos. Thank you very much.
This channel is so informative, so real, so raw, so revealing....and I really commend you for creating and developing it in the manner you have because it is going to help so very many people.
Just imagine people who live in areas of the world where there isn't even 1 therapist, much less someone who actually possesses the depth and breadth of knowledge about personality psychopathology that is required to NOT be absolutely terrified when someone is experiencing BPD rage (and for a neurotypical person who doesn't have a Cluster B disorder, if it absolutely SHOCKING, confounding, terrifying, and almost surreal to encounter). Imagine being that person in a small, midwestern town...being alone....suffering from BPD...and having no one who understands what it is or why you feel the way you feel.
I can't even imagine how many adolescents and adults around the world go through this, completely alone, and just maybe they come across this channel and suddenly, they realize they're not alone and that there's a name for what is going on in their head all the time, and that others might understand.
RUclips is such a lifeline for so many, and especially during this global pandemic. Please keep doing what you're doing.
Incredible. Both the therapist and the patient are so brave.
My god, yes...because that BPD rage is not for the weak, that's for sure. I can't even imagine what it must be like to feel that kind of rage inside.
I think this is one of the more complex models of treatment for personality disorder, but I think its one of the superior approaches because it's design to address identity diffusion, which is considered to be at the heart of a personality disorder. Also, providers who are utilizing this approach much make sure that they don't have any major emotional issues of their own that are active because it can make it extremely difficult to maintain under these intense conditions in session while transference/countertransference is unfolding.
I just love your show!!! I have a masters in counseling and a doctorate in clinical psychology. These shows are one of the best around.
I am really quite proud for you to have started and maintained this website!!! Please keep going!! Your great! -m
I feel compelled to declare how grateful i feel of your uploading of this remarkable man’s candid expressions about his 40 years of experience, combined with his obviously amazing intellect. OMG - If I had understood all this, I might not have made the mistakes I have made. Thank you.
I just hope you young ones out there appreciate that those of us who are baby boomers, are trying - we just didn’t have the resources you have.
One-mind psychology and especially psychotherapy is based on the Freudian and the older Kleinian models of psychotherapy - projective identification being seen primarily as something being done by one person, kind of like Freud's definition of projection, but with an expansion of what type of mental contents it would be possible to project. Freud thought projection was primarily done to get rid of unwanted sexual and aggressive impulses, whereas Klein expanded what could be projected, or projectively identified, to include unwanted affective states, i.e. bad feelings, especially envy, shame, rage, hate, and so on (the very painful, negative emotions that it is so tempting to avoid and which feel so overwhelming to people who haven't had caregivers who helped them to learn how to deal with and think about these states of mind and feeling).
Whereas Wilfred Bion's definition expanded projective identification to include the possibility of what Klein considered, but also a two-mind operation. That is, where Person A (the one doing the projective identification) gets rid of bad feelings, or to use the technical language, projectively identifies bad feelings, into person B, by actually acting in ways (sometimes this is with remarkable subtlety, but not always) that bring out, or evoke, the very feelings, in Person B, that Person A did not want to have. So Person B is not just believed by Person A to have the bad feelings Person A didn't want (this is the one-mind, Kleinian model), Person A is somehow doing something to actually get Person B to feel Person A's unwanted feelings.
Frequent and extreme use of this type of defense is characteristic of all of the severe personality disorders, including BPD and NPD.
You can find some brief explanation of this stuff on this channel in the series from Otto Kernberg.
Thanks a lot for that. I have BPD.
It is soo helpful to watch this channel!
Thank you!
I have generalized anxiety and ptsd! Thank-you for this!
And thank you for being here! -p
You two have such good chemistry when it comes to deriving crystallised knowledge. Oops, barely intended the analogy there.
I love frank yeoman's. I also like the one camera setup. Hope you guys can get back soon to in person interviews
Terrific video
I healed Personality disorder person who was struggles with this all her life. Took us 7 years but we got a breakthrough! There’s a so many and methods I e use to help her most importantly compassion and empathy and understanding her episodes and emotional irregularities. There’s are time I just quit on her because it can get to you and effect you at times. She will blog and write about her journey. If you are struggling with this or someone who is. There’s hope.
Brilliant minds 🌟 What an awesome channel this is 👌
Needs patience, effort and courage. There a way out of this tunnel. Keep climbing
This sounds like learning to build empathy as well.
That is Thomas Ogdens definition of projective identification. The therapist gets a small taste of what the patient can't tolerate and the therapist waits to make interpretations when the patient is showing they are ready to receive this data.
Oh...This is a weird idea, the countertransference. Getting others to mirror and hold your emotions. I have to think about that.
...Poor young man, though. What a terrifying, sad, awful thing he went through.
Its the basis of psychoanalysis, and probably the most important discovery Freud made. Its essentially study of the relationship. In what roles we put others, while acting out our relationship dynamics. As we internalize both sides of the early relationships.
Countertransference is the transference from the direction of the therapist. I think this is usually avoided.
@BorderlinerNotes: Could you share the article please?? Ta
Is there any way to get this article that was discussed in this video?
This ability to elicit in another emotions that actually belong to the first party - is it the foundation of Projective Identification as well? Another question: the article you referred to at the beginning - could you please give a link?
Thank you for your great educational work!
Here is the link and will post in description as well. www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15299732.2013.724339 - unfortunatey, there's a paywall. It was shared with me and I am wondering how I can share the PDF of the full article?
@@BorderlinerNotes Hey thanks for the link! I have downloaded it as a PDF already, via my education provider's website. I think we can't legitimately share its full text because of the copyright... Sadly.
For those who want to download papers :)
Sci-hub.st
Beware of potential changes to the link in the future due to... Capitalism.
Has anyone know of a therapist who offers this kind of therapy in the UK?
Ofc ! Google dialectal behavioral therapy
Look for psychodynamic therapy w/o too many other methodologies listed and ask if they work relationally/ attachment based
I have been wondering, how would transference differ from the use of projective identification or simple projection?
Transference is neutral. Projection is seeing the traits we refuse to acknowledge within ourselves in the other.
@@VibingTribes How would transferences be neutral?
@nobodynowhere read Ghosts In The Nursery & about transference ..NEABPD channel among others
transference is the feelings the client 'transfers' onto the therapist (it is a kind of displacement: the feelings you have towards your mother/father/siblings are being transferred onto the therapist so you see them as if they were your mother or sister...etc..the 'as if' is important. if the client thinks that the therapist is actually her mother/sister/father...etc...then she is psychotic.
countertransference is the feelings that are aroused in the therapist by the client. there are two types of countertransference: 1, objective: the feelings aroused by the client through projective identification, 2, subjective countertransference: the therapist own feelings towards the client. It is really important that the therapist can differentiate between the two, so she won't confuse her own feelings with what the client projects into her.
projective identification: it is part of the countertransference. as is mentioned above, it is through the mechanism of projective identification the client dumps her unbearable feelings into the therapist. it is beyond projection. when the client projects feelings onto the therapist, she attributes her own feelings to the therapist, but she is not actively eliciting those feelings in the therapist. through projective identification, however, the client induces feelings in the therapist. She pressures the therapist through verbal and non-verbal communicatoin to feel those feelings she cannot bear. That's what borderlines do all the time. Evacuating their unbearable feelings into others through projective identification. That's one of the main reasons why it is so hard to be around them. (e.g. there's a girlfriend and a boyfriend with at a party with a group of friends. girfriend is flirting heavily with another man from the group while boyfriend is watching. boyfriend feels really humiliated, but doesn't want to make a scene, so he leaves the party and goes back home on his own. after the party is over and the grilfriend gets home, the boyfriend tells her that her flirting with another man in his face made him feel sad and humiliated. Borderline/narcissitic girfriend feels of course starts to feel bad about herself because she feels guilty and ashamed, but she cannot bear it. So she evacuates these feelings into the boyfriend: she raises her voice and accuses the boyfriend of being antisocial because he left her and the group of friends without saying goodbye. When there's projective identificatoin, there's always a 'hook' in the receiver: the boyfriend is actually quite an introvert and at other occasions he didn't really want to go out with her friends. So the boyfriend starts feeling guilty and ashamed, he feels that he is the bad one, because yes, he did leave the party without saying goodbye to the friends. So although he was the one humiliated and hurt, borderline/narcissitic girfriend successfully induced the feelings of guilt and shame in him through projective identification, so she doesn't need ot feel bad.
But projective identification is not always bad. It is the basis of empathy. When a friends tells you about the unfortunate things that happened to them and you start feeling sad, it is because your friend induced those feelings in you. and that's OK. we need to feel empathy towards each other. Also, the non-verbal baby communicates wth the mother through projective identification. When the baby feels hungry/in pain/uncomfortable, for the baby that's life threatening and persecuting. The baby needs to project these unbearable feelings into the mother. if the mother is responsive and can function as a container (the concept of container-contained comes from psychoanalysis, from Wilfrid Bion, and all other therapeutic modalities have co-opted it. If a therapist cannot contain the client, then she is not a good enough therapist), so if the mother can cootain the baby's unbearable feelings and think about it, feel it, do this for a suffcient amount of time and thus 'detoxify' them, process them for the baby and then project it back in a detoxified, bearable form, then the baby is contained. If the mother is a 'leaky container', and cannot detoxify the baby's projections, then what the baby will intorject is the 'nameless dread'. The concept of containing the feelings of the infant is quite similar to mentalisation. Children learn to mentalise - be aware of their own and other's internal states - because they are being accurately mentalised by adults: these adult can contain their negative feelings and can accurately mirror back the positive ones. Children develop personality disorders - I would rather say narcissistic/borderline/schizoid adaptations - because they have to adapt to inadequate caregivers who cannot provide the containing function becaus they are unresponsive/neglectful/abusive. What borderline clients need most is containment. Because they have never been contained by their caregivers. That's why they cannot regulate their emotions. Children learn to regulate their emotions and mentalise through a secure attachment with a responsive primary caregiver. Secure attachement is interactive co-regulation between mother and infant. People with narcissistic/borderline/schizoid/avoidant adaptations have never had caregivers who were securely attached and could contain their unbearable feelings. That's what is called developmental trauma. Alan N Shore is a neuro-psychoanalyst who is worth reading and a book called: 'Borderline, Narcissitic and Schizoid Adaptations - The Pursuit of Love, Admiratoin and Safety' by Elinor Greenberg. Hope this helps
@@evakinsey9641 In your example, wouldn't the flirting part be the actual projective identification? That made the boyfriend feel humiliated and jealous? And yes, this is kinda what i was thinking. That projective identification would be considered as part of the transference. Even if it can be separated as a clearly defined defence mechanism.
You quite well described the origins of projective identification, and how every mechanism essentially is beneficial and normal. But can turn pathological.
The empathy part i think is important, and i think is the reason why a lot of borderlines describe themselves as extremely empathetic. Because of the over use of projective identification.
How old is Dr Yeomans?
Probably spiritually everywhere between 1 and 100 years ?
What if they are child abusers,killers..do you have to see it from their perspective?.
My therapist had no courage to do it. And I have not screamed ...I gave up on this model...actually makes me sick...sorry:///