This is probably the best thing they could have done. This way Tom King fans get more of his Batman and people who don’t like it get a brand new writer! I‘m excited to see who will write Batman next.
Speaking of a creative team that unjustifiably got their run cut short: Tomasi and Gleason on Superman. Bendis wanted to write Superman, so DC kicked Tomasi and Gleason off Superman because DC wanted Brian Michael Bendis.
Scoro I saw a Instagram post by Gleason saying that around the time of issue 45, that he and Tomasi had written out issue 100, only for DC to give him and Tomasi the call that their run was being axed because Bendis was coming on board. A lot of the stuff we enjoyed from the Tomasi/Gleason era had to be fought with tooth and nail against editorial. That includes that amazing issue 7 where Clark and his family go to the fair.
@@patsboy1012 I believe it, alot of things that are critically great and beloved by fans get so much push back from company higher ups who have agendas. DC needs to be in Marvel's position again in the late 90s, early 2000s where everything went from garbage to critically aclaimed. Which, ironically, Bendis was a part of and helmed
What was the last issue that Tomasi and Gleason wrote for Superman? Last issue I read was #22. I dropped rebirth afterwards. His run was the best thing to come out of rebirth
Should Tom King Get To Finish Batman? No. They do not owe him anything more than the contract he signed says they do. Also, 85 issues is enough for any run. Tom King has had over 70 issues so far to tell his story and he has futzed about with plotlines and filler. Did we really need "Knightmares" to be as many issues as it was? Did we need the "War of Jokes and Riddles" to exist as a retcon at all? What about the "Tyrant Wing" storyline, how relevant was that? Heck, the Gotham Girl storyline gets introduced, partially resolved in "I Am Suicide" and then dropped for 40 issues only to have the next stage of the story resolved in a crossover written by a different writer. It's time for a change of the guard. Give me Bendis. Give me Priest. Give me Tomasi. King had plenty of time.
tashaem1 Exactly! No Bendis either though. King and Bendis do better with less defined characters so they can ignore continuity and character essence and be creatively free.
Let me preface this by saying I haven't read King's Batman myself, but I love Tiff's idea about publishing the rest as digital. You cut down costs, King and fans of the work get a completed arc. Plus it could pioneer a new way of letting any series (that's being canceled) get to finish its run in a satisfying way.
Digital comics sales are only approximately 10-15% of the printed issues. Putting Tom King Batman as a digital only title will help ensure that the vast majority of fans don't read it.
I say drop him because if what he's written so far is any indication imagine the irreparable damage he could do to the series with whatever generational changing plan he had in mind. I mean Heroes in Crisis wasn't very good or was divisive. He's fucked up Wally West do we really need him doing the same for the Bat Family?
Damian Dennis I would love to have Tynion be the writer who picks up Batman after King exits. His Detective Comics run was good and JL Dark is one of my two favorite books at DC (the other being Green Lantern).
@@mathewsimoes5830 His Justice League Dark is a permanent resident of my pull list, I absolutely love it. And his issues in the main Justice League title are some of the best issues in the series.
DC is little by little edging me out of buying monthly comics and I think that's the plan. They will most likely get a bunch of stunt writers like Bendis and start doing a bunch of story's hoping they stick as a movie. WB doesn't want character development or long runs they just want the highlights that can translate to film and DC's upper management doesn't want change
I feel the same and the red head seems to be more worried about his feels than the customer getting a good product. She does not even read the book. King needs therapy not sympathy.
If you're a celebrity, you should be ready for criticism. Hell, in everyday life, people get criticized every day at work. As a creator myself, I'm always subject to my work being scrutinized. Tom King should just accept the criticism, move past it and write better stories.
@@ryanmadej6694 to be fair it was good in the beginning. The second half was pretty trash though. Not even pissed that he ended up killing those heroes. Just what happened after that. The hiding from his crimes and sending out justice league secrets knowing that these people die when there secret identities are exposed. Over the fact that he is depressed? Despite the fact that the speed force LITERALLY told him that he could have his family back. Pure unadulterated trash.
I think heroe in crisis is good man and I bet many others think the same. The thing is that everyone likes to post negative thoughts while the people that enjoy the content just keep reading and don't feel the necessity to express those feelings as much as the ones that don't like it. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it bothers me to see so much negativity all the time.
Tyler Saez there’s so much of Rebirth (if they’re even calling it that anymore) that I haven’t read. I literally was just gonna buy every run in trade and catch up. I bought Batman’s run and haven’t finished it for reasons stated above. Recently bought Detective Comics Volume 1, and I have Dark Knights Metal and some of the other major books that I’ve heard I need to read.
JPeeper you see I was just buying in bulk and was like hey I’ve barely read rebirth, let me just buy all the trades of his run, which was up to volume 8. And I really wish I just spent it elsewhere.
I feel you, I think I dropped off at about 60. Also, I Fucking love The Omega Men, one of my favorite DC "side stories" in forever. Would love to see a back issues episode on it.
@@orienday3430 yeah it’s known that booster gold, Harley Quinn, and Wally weren’t even in his original story. So he was forced to write it around three main characters he didn’t want. I truly believe King did all he could to make that book not suck
Tom King has been a stain on the batman brand since he began. He doesnt get it, he uses the comic as a vehicle to vent his own frustrations with life while completely ignoring everything that makes Bruce, Bats.
King is great when he's on a maxi (Omega Men, Vision, Sheriff, MM). His Batman has had moments. I Am Bane was great until the last issue of that arc, I am Gotham was average until the final issue. WOJAR was carried by the amazing art and honestly after the wedding snafu the story has struggled. He has had amazing one shots and short arcs ie Swamp thing, The looney tunes stuff, kite man, and Cold Days
IMO the cardinal sin was WOJAR. That entire arc made little sense and had very scarce payoff. The worst part was the misrepresentation of so many characters, Bruce/Batman being the worst portrayal.
the dream sequences were utter bullsh#$. No matter how much they revealed underlying charecters and what not, i still skipped a quarter of a year of reading batman because of them
since around issue 50, literally nothing has happening in this book. except of course, batman punching his friends (Gordon & Tim Drake) with no apparent repercussions. Tom's Batman feels so hollow. I say bring on issue 86!
Seeing as the Hulk has outsold Batman, I'd say it's time for a change. Also this is the earliest I've been for one of these videos. Thanks for all the quality content!
@@thrawncaedusl717 A better example is how guardians of the galaxy made more money than man of steel. Yes it suggests that gotg was very good and people really enjoyed it but it also suggests that despite being the most recoginsed character the movie itself didnt speak to people as much. Overall I doubt the removal of king was purely sales but they obviously didnt help. Im more thinking that due to king's unconventional ideas on batman not doing as well as hoped and all the controversy he brings they decided it wasnt worth it (also I heard some higher ups didnt like his run)
Jack Kirby (Long live the King) didn't get to finish his Fourth World Saga until 1984 (11 years after cancellation). Tom King is no more special than Kirby. Also, any bets on whether we see the double page ads with Batman's image declaring, "BENDIS IS COMING!"?
You know what would make me happy. If DC did a double splash page ad with Batman on the ad and the ad says "Tom King is leaving". That would be hilarious. Although I do like Tom King's writing I'm pretty neutral about it. I'm not super into it but I do like the artwork that is put into it. I honestly didn't care 4 the Batman and Catwoman wedding. That wedding was super trashy and we all know who was behind it.
*Reads title* Oh I can answer this: YES!!! Tom King's Batman run has been an assault on the character as a whole, and nothing that this man tried to do hasn't been "new" or "bold" or even "interesting"; it has been done, tired, and absurd. King's run has been on a one way trip to hell since he botched the wedding in #50, and this is DC FINALLY course correcting things. Now they just need to deal Bendis...
@ComicPOP I don't really have an opinion on this specific topic, but I really like these kinds of discussions on the Channel (for example, _Should Batman Kill?_ was very well done). Keep up the good work!
The Tom King/Brian Michael Bendis Batman/Superman combo is the reason I stopped reading DC books currently. You look at that, Doomsday delays, “Rick” Grayson and man, DC needs to shake things up.
Just allow king to finish in graphic novel format. Release each mini arc as a singular novel and done. Would require a great deal less costs I would think and you get the conclusion.
Sales are still decent, if not as high as DC would want them to be. But offering King a new secondary title, like a new "Shadow of the Bat" or whatever, while putting a different writer (Bendis seems like the frontrunner, but Ben Percy is available as well and probably the more interesting option) on Batman, seems like the best possible move here. If you don't want more King, don't buy that new title. If you do, now you can.
Was Hoping this would be the topic for Elseworlds Exchange this week - Wanna see u and Caped-Joel's back and fourth on this since he stayed with the title/run the whole time
Everyone's pointing towards Hulk as outselling Batman this month and saying "Batman's selling horribly". Could it be that Ewing's Hulk is just that good? It's been building a seemingly unstoppable hype train since it started and it's now in a lot of people's pull lists where previously they wouldn't even consider reading Hulk.
Hell no, Tom King ruined so many good things built by his predecessors in the past couple years that I personally feel he should have been kicked off back around the issue 50 disaster.
at the same time tho, i feel like Snyder staying around and writing batman through dark nights and even the batman who laughs, as well as Tomasi doing detective have softened the blow. Kings run at this point can be neglectable and hasnt seemed important to the larger aspect of the DCU. wouldnt say he ruined the work done yet. just get him off and hire a great dude to commit to the next great run.
So happy you made a video on this! Really hope he gets taken off Batman asap. Going to be interesting how his small Superman run turns out. Same with Bendis writing Batman
I will have to agree with Ben on his point about a bad story not selling. Batman is a universally known character, so he should have a good story and a bad story can drive away readers. A smaller or indie book can have the best story ever, but less people care about that character.
Also I think Bendis needs to get off of Superman and let someone else should write superman and action comics not run by one person because Peter J Tomasi run on Superman got cut short for bendis but that's just my opinion.
I say let him finish, if he had a plan for 100 issues that means to me that there maybe a reason for the slow down arcs and the “filler”. Hell how many movies and or books have I read that tied up all these weird sideways glances that seem pointless but come back around and make sense in the end? Especially in things like multipart novels and more interesting art house type movies (hell look at Fight Club and Momento as two great examples) I am just saying it might be worth it for the final payoff - especially if they made sure Tom had a storyline that long when signing him to the book.
Idk, I feel its really hard to justify 7 issues of dream sequences. Id argue half of them were important (The bachelor party one was made cause the artist regretted not doing it earlier with king for example) and I dont think that sideways glances are as comparable as multiple issues of dreams.
I actually don't care if king gets to finish his series or not, every month I'm picking up the superior batman comic, detective comics by peter j. tomasi
@@iwanttobelieve2 I want to go back to before that - when Batman was actually a hero that stood for justice and righteousness. Not the miserable, amoral wimp that he is now.
I’m conflicted. I have been a Batman fan for as long as I remember and really enjoy the psychological aspect of the character just as much as I do the visual and technical aspect of the character and his universe that he inhabits. I grew up on Batman the animated series and the justice league Unlimited show as well as the Arkham games. And of course I grew up watching the movies. Over time I began to understand why some of the lesser loved movies were criticized and why some of the more popular ones were celebrated. About five years ago I went back and started my Batman journey in the comic books taking breaks here and there. I can honestly say I actually really love Tom Kings run. I know I am most definitely in the minority. Personally, I really feel like they flushed out the character as he existed over the last 5 to 10 years and then said where can we logically push the character forward in a way that attempts to be concrete. But either way, it does upset me that there are Batman fans all over that are not enjoying Batman right now and if the consensus stands to be that there needs to be a change, I definitely think there should be. But I also like the idea of following through and finishing strong. Even if it’s not the strong that we believe, Tom King has dedicated his time living in the minds of these characters for years now and I feel he should be able to finish his story. And if the consensus is that he needs to be taken off the book, then take him off the book after he finishes. There’s nothing he can do that can truly destroy what came before it, that’s why comic book retcons are great, The next person and the authors that follow can simply ignore some of the things that he did. In an attempt to communicate my fair thought process of this, I really did not like the execution of Zach Snyder’s DCEU projects, but would have loved for the man to see his story finished. Ultimately I’m sad that there are a lot of Batman fans that aren’t getting what they want and believe that the things making that so will change eventually.
I like some parts of King's run (War of Jokes and Riddles and Bruce Wayne jury duty) but I think it is more of a potential problem if DC is this dependent on Batman.
Whenever i hear on topics like these all i can think about is how Lucky we were to have brian azzarello complete a 100 issues of a crime story that required a lot of attention span than the average story
I feel like Tom King should be allowed to "finish his story"... As much as I dislike his take on Batman, I want to see where it's going. But, King doesn't need 30 more issues to finish -- especially considering all the padding his stories have. I'd say let King tell his story, but force him to cut it down to fewer issues. No matter what King is planning, keeping him can't hurt more than fracturing the Batman fanbase through his firing. Besides: no matter how crazy the stories in comics get, everything is only one "event comic" away from being reset to status quo.
Just saw the article you guys linked. That Batman/Catwoman #1 cover looks... weird. Also, maybe some Valiant titles on Back Issues like Faith or X-O Manowar? #ComicPop #BackIssues
I like King, his work on Vision and Mister Miracle is great. His cowriting with Tim Seeley on Grayson is pretty good. But I swear to god get him the fuck off of Batman
It’s interesting, since I myself like King’s writing, and for one, enjoy a lot of his works. That being said, if his intent was to write 105 or so issues, he should be able to finish it. It stinks when editorial gets in the way and meddles with author’s works. That being said, King should be able to look at his Batman run as an accomplishment. How many comic book writers can legitimately say they’ve written a definitive run spanning 85 issues? Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison are two that immediately come to mind, but that in itself is and should be an accomplishment for King. Though I can definitely say that some arcs for King’s Batman could have been shortened (Knightmares immediately comes to mind), some huge events pissed me off (the Wedding), and weird creative decisions (lots of naked Bane), I can say that I enjoyed most of what King had for Batman. Whoever is on the Batman project next (betting on Tom Taylor or Brian Michael Bendis), I will see what happens. Regardless, it’s bad that editorial does meddle with the creators, but all we as fans can do is support our favorite and constructively criticize them in these types of times.
Its funny you say that since king actually got an editor fired off of a book because he wanted david finch to draw the proposal page but the editor told him david was on vacation (wonder if thats why finch never came back to the book). Overall we will have to wait till its finished to say its definative but honestly I dont really think it is. Id personally never suggest this run if I wanted to get someone into batman considering how weird it is.
I didn't realize you were a Graphic Designer, Tiffany. Does anyone know anything she's worked on? I'm always trying to find other designers' styles and works.
It's as simple as this: his sales trajectory will have the book under 40k by the end. For the single most popular superhero in the industry. It takes a special kind of stupid to ruin Batman.
yes i guess to me this is the most attention the batman comic has gotten with or without the controversy. But then again the next comic writer could just retcon King work in his run so does it really matter? When they themselves don't care for continuity?
I always say this the company has a number that they feel each book should be selling and if they aren't hitting that number the book with either be cancelled or they will change creators.
I like the idea floating around that they might pull an All Star Batman like with Snyder to allow King to continue the story. IMO it's the ideal solution. Though it doesn't get past go if King really is going to do a "generational change".
Great discussion, but just pointing out that Hulk outsold Batman for a single issue due a having a bunch of store exclusive variants for that one issue, next month it'll be back well below Batman. So I doubt that has anything to do with it. So I don't think this has anything to do with sales numbers since Batman is still far and away the highest selling on-going comic from either DC or Marvel. I think it's far more likely something to do with the MASSIVE NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME AGAIN!!! change he wanted to make. It spooked the big wigs. Don't forget about how Tomasi and Gleason had 100 issues planned but were kicked off for Bendis. If anyone should be allowed to finish their run it's them.
I personally liked everything up to the wedding. That is when I believe the book started to go downhill for me. But what really killed it was doing Knightmares when he teased Bruce vs Thomas, something he still hasn't delivered us yet.
No. He had his chance, there are many creators which was able to make amazing stories in many less issues, hell there are many oneshots that are better than whole run of King. He had so many fillers and bad stories he has to go. Since it looks like he will be leaving DC soon, give him something wierd like Sentry or Man-Thing for 12 issues he will make gold,
Personally I have no problem with it. We as readers did not know how it would end; DC does. And if DC doesn't like the upcoming story or wants someone else on the book, then they absolutely should switch writers. They have a perpetual IP to maintain, and if he's going to trash the IP, then absolutely he has no "right" to finish his story. Any writer has the ability to wrap up their arc and hand back the keys to the corporate office.
I dropped batman around issue 30 simply because nothing was happening in Kings run. No sense of progression that we've come somewhere with the character. The only thing interested me was the developing significance of the relationship between catwoman and batman (even w/ the bad dialogue). But most of the arcs are literally pointless filler to pad out issues so they could hold off the wedding till the nice round number of 50. I checked back in once at 50, only to find out that I had been cucked and we're all back to square one. King has had 71 issues so far to tell a story. 71 bloody issues and from what I've heard, still fuck all has happened. Terrible run, give him the boot.
I like to speculate that cause Tom King has so many projects coming up he had to reevaluate his story and trim the fat. Seriously Knightmare had an issue where it was only a chase scene. Maybe his story only needed 85 issues
Him getting forced to end at 85 May stop him from spinning his wheels anymore which may fix the pacing issues at least. Of course if King couldn’t be flexible then it’s going to end in a crash and burn and force the next writer to do a looot of clean up.
i agree with sal. king has a little over a year left...let him finish it. i don't read it. i read detective comics. it doesn't affect me, personally. i don't want it to hurt other titles or the company, but 1: it is the highest selling comic for DC, 2: there is only a little over a year left, 3: the fans deserve the intended ending. all of those reasons COMBINED justify letting him finish ... if only one of the reasons were true it wouldn't be justified, but all of them are true, so...
To whoever is reading this, what is your main issue with the Tom King run of Batman? I can agree I didn't care for Knightmares. I did feel cheated with the Wedding issue. There is some good with his current run. Feels that people a bit more passionate about the dislike. So what is it about Kings Batman that grinds your gears?
Generally his writing of batman and other characters to a certain extent being off or weird, dialogue being too robotic or stiff and a general misinterpretation of who batman is at his core. Ive heard some people argue that he is basically just writing himself into these books and they are not completely without merit
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Looks like they went with the "two titles" option! www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/05/24/batman-catwoman-1-continues-ongoing-bat-cat-romance
Thanks! I wonder who is gonna be the new creative team for the Batman
This is probably the best thing they could have done. This way Tom King fans get more of his Batman and people who don’t like it get a brand new writer! I‘m excited to see who will write Batman next.
Somebody had better get that phone, BECAUSE COMICPOP F***ING CALLED IT!
Interesting that Batman will now be monthly now.
It was a nice compromise. Everyone gets what they want. I’m pumped for King’s mini-series and the next creative team on Batman.
Why the hell does King get special treatment for a subpar Batman run but no gave a shit when Tomasi got kicked off an amazing Superman run
Because Dan Didiot is in charge
Speaking of a creative team that unjustifiably got their run cut short: Tomasi and Gleason on Superman. Bendis wanted to write Superman, so DC kicked Tomasi and Gleason off Superman because DC wanted Brian Michael Bendis.
I don't blame Pat Gleason for leaving for Marvel because of it. He got kicked in the balls by DC and Bendis by ruining Superman and Jon
Scoro
I saw a Instagram post by Gleason saying that around the time of issue 45, that he and Tomasi had written out issue 100, only for DC to give him and Tomasi the call that their run was being axed because Bendis was coming on board. A lot of the stuff we enjoyed from the Tomasi/Gleason era had to be fought with tooth and nail against editorial. That includes that amazing issue 7 where Clark and his family go to the fair.
@@patsboy1012 I believe it, alot of things that are critically great and beloved by fans get so much push back from company higher ups who have agendas. DC needs to be in Marvel's position again in the late 90s, early 2000s where everything went from garbage to critically aclaimed. Which, ironically, Bendis was a part of and helmed
What was the last issue that Tomasi and Gleason wrote for Superman? Last issue I read was #22. I dropped rebirth afterwards. His run was the best thing to come out of rebirth
@@bulbapig441 #45 from what I remember, definitely worth catching up on tho. Most rebirth books were solid
Tomasi was kicked off of Superman despite it doing well and being well received. Not sure why Tom King would get special treatment on this.
Cause hes a media darling
Dan Didiot is the answer
No. There’s been tons of creators who’s runs are cut short sometimes unjustifiably so and he’s no different or special
indeed its so stupid
Benjamin Percy got taken off of Nightwing just as he was getting started because of Ric Grayson and who's idea was it to shoot Dick? Tom King.
Batman Damned sold like 'nuts?' Ah Sal I see what you did there.
Should Tom King Get To Finish Batman? No. They do not owe him anything more than the contract he signed says they do.
Also, 85 issues is enough for any run. Tom King has had over 70 issues so far to tell his story and he has futzed about with plotlines and filler.
Did we really need "Knightmares" to be as many issues as it was? Did we need the "War of Jokes and Riddles" to exist as a retcon at all? What about the "Tyrant Wing" storyline, how relevant was that? Heck, the Gotham Girl storyline gets introduced, partially resolved in "I Am Suicide" and then dropped for 40 issues only to have the next stage of the story resolved in a crossover written by a different writer. It's time for a change of the guard. Give me Bendis. Give me Priest. Give me Tomasi. King had plenty of time.
Couldn't agree more.
Bendis would be a better fit for Batman than Superman, at least.
Priest or Tomasi not Bendis
tashaem1 Exactly! No Bendis either though. King and Bendis do better with less defined characters so they can ignore continuity and character essence and be creatively free.
Dan Gleeson true
Let me preface this by saying I haven't read King's Batman myself, but I love Tiff's idea about publishing the rest as digital. You cut down costs, King and fans of the work get a completed arc. Plus it could pioneer a new way of letting any series (that's being canceled) get to finish its run in a satisfying way.
Yeah just put and elseworlds or some other label on it.
Digital comics sales are only approximately 10-15% of the printed issues. Putting Tom King Batman as a digital only title will help ensure that the vast majority of fans don't read it.
I dislike online comics
What’s the fun
I say drop him because if what he's written so far is any indication imagine the irreparable damage he could do to the series with whatever generational changing plan he had in mind. I mean Heroes in Crisis wasn't very good or was divisive. He's fucked up Wally West do we really need him doing the same for the Bat Family?
I’m worried about what he will do to the Bat-Family
I've been worried that King is going to do something horrible to Alfred.
@@tylersaez4095 Yo, can you see the future or some shit?
Well I mean.....if we are in a separate reality in which THE HULK CAN OUT SELL BATMAN! Then yes something has to change
Amazing Zero the hulk book is legit interesting and has great pacing every issue tho
The immortal hulk is the best book on the shelf atm
Give it to Tynion IV. Having Tomasi on Detective Comics and Tynion on the main title sounds perfect.
Damian Dennis I would love to have Tynion be the writer who picks up Batman after King exits. His Detective Comics run was good and JL Dark is one of my two favorite books at DC (the other being Green Lantern).
@@mathewsimoes5830 His Justice League Dark is a permanent resident of my pull list, I absolutely love it. And his issues in the main Justice League title are some of the best issues in the series.
2 years later, that’s actually exactly what happened lol
This aged well lol
Sal: "Tom king is fired from Batman!"
Me: I wish...
Don't we all
@@99jmaster yes we all
Especially in comparison to what came right before it.
DC is little by little edging me out of buying monthly comics and I think that's the plan. They will most likely get a bunch of stunt writers like Bendis and start doing a bunch of story's hoping they stick as a movie. WB doesn't want character development or long runs they just want the highlights that can translate to film and DC's upper management doesn't want change
Really hope they do something about that...
Honestly? Just tell him to cut all the filler and he won't even need those 25-ish issues that he still has to do.
Personally, I can't WAIT until Tom King is gone!! His run is a character assassination of my all-time favorite comic book character!
I feel the same and the red head seems to be more worried about his feels than the customer getting a good product. She does not even read the book. King needs therapy not sympathy.
If you're a celebrity, you should be ready for criticism. Hell, in everyday life, people get criticized every day at work. As a creator myself, I'm always subject to my work being scrutinized. Tom King should just accept the criticism, move past it and write better stories.
King is the King of Filler. If he just streamlines it, I’m sure we could get a satisfying ending by issue 85.
this. his knightmare arc is full of nonesense. Why the hell should he be allowed to go all the way to 105?
No one likes Heroes In Crisis and Knightmares, so...
Maybe u should put only your opinion
@@ryanmadej6694 i just report online general troughts, for example i like HiC.
@@NovaZiggyStardust cause i got so much hate when i trashed about hic
@@ryanmadej6694 to be fair it was good in the beginning. The second half was pretty trash though. Not even pissed that he ended up killing those heroes. Just what happened after that. The hiding from his crimes and sending out justice league secrets knowing that these people die when there secret identities are exposed. Over the fact that he is depressed? Despite the fact that the speed force LITERALLY told him that he could have his family back. Pure unadulterated trash.
I think heroe in crisis is good man and I bet many others think the same. The thing is that everyone likes to post negative thoughts while the people that enjoy the content just keep reading and don't feel the necessity to express those feelings as much as the ones that don't like it. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it bothers me to see so much negativity all the time.
I dropped Batman around issue 20 because of Tom King
stewy37 you were smart I stop at after the freeze arc
@@kylarh4425 I did come back and pick up issue 50, so he possibly could have brought me back, but nope. That was complete crap.
I left when he shot Dick
you're a sad sht tbh
Twisted Tristan dear god why?! Batman would never do that.
No. I still haven’t finished the “I am Bane” storyline because it’s so bad, and I keep hearing it just gets worse.
Bruce - I am Bat
Selina - I am Cat
Tom King - I can write good dialogue!
Read the two part Superman story. I hate his run but I love that story.
Tyler Saez there’s so much of Rebirth (if they’re even calling it that anymore) that I haven’t read. I literally was just gonna buy every run in trade and catch up. I bought Batman’s run and haven’t finished it for reasons stated above. Recently bought Detective Comics Volume 1, and I have Dark Knights Metal and some of the other major books that I’ve heard I need to read.
I finished War of Joeks and Riddles and just gave up. Bought the 5th trade, but haven't even bothered with it. Can't wait until King is off Batman.
JPeeper you see I was just buying in bulk and was like hey I’ve barely read rebirth, let me just buy all the trades of his run, which was up to volume 8. And I really wish I just spent it elsewhere.
Why continue to beat a dead horse... He should've been stopped at issue 20
I guess you want a 100 more issues of Snyders' Super Bat
@@iwanttobelieve2 Not a Snyder fan either. His Batman isn't as dull as King's but it's not as wonderful as everyone hypes it up to be.
By the way saying "Fun Stuff is coming in the future from Tom King" means more or less: "Look how we let him assassinate another Charakter."
Left the run at 55. Loved MM though and no ever talks about The Omega Men anymore, such a good run.
I feel you, I think I dropped off at about 60. Also, I Fucking love The Omega Men, one of my favorite DC "side stories" in forever. Would love to see a back issues episode on it.
I left at 55 too.
Not only was The Omega Men a great book, it had gorgeous art to complement it.
If only they did this sooner, perhaps he wouldn't have the chance to ruin Wally West in Heroes in Crisis.
Tbf I think didio would've made that happen anyway
@@orienday3430 i was going to say the same thing. Didio needs to go too.
@@orienday3430 yeah it’s known that booster gold, Harley Quinn, and Wally weren’t even in his original story. So he was forced to write it around three main characters he didn’t want. I truly believe King did all he could to make that book not suck
They should give Sean Gordan Murphy Batman for a short 4-6 issue arc as a palate cleanser, and whatever creative team takes over would be fine.
Tom King has been a stain on the batman brand since he began. He doesnt get it, he uses the comic as a vehicle to vent his own frustrations with life while completely ignoring everything that makes Bruce, Bats.
I've been waiting for comicsPOP take on this put tomasi on
It seems they are scaling the title to once a month if they are doing that with detective just let tomasi do both bat books like bendis does superman
King is great when he's on a maxi (Omega Men, Vision, Sheriff, MM). His Batman has had moments. I Am Bane was great until the last issue of that arc, I am Gotham was average until the final issue. WOJAR was carried by the amazing art and honestly after the wedding snafu the story has struggled. He has had amazing one shots and short arcs ie Swamp thing, The looney tunes stuff, kite man, and Cold Days
IMO the cardinal sin was WOJAR. That entire arc made little sense and had very scarce payoff. The worst part was the misrepresentation of so many characters, Bruce/Batman being the worst portrayal.
Yeah i agree with you. His writing doesnt fit batman. But hes great with other kinds of books
the dream sequences were utter bullsh#$. No matter how much they revealed underlying charecters and what not, i still skipped a quarter of a year of reading batman because of them
Look at Green Arrow, how many "runs" have been cut short every time they've changed writers 5 issues into a story.
since around issue 50, literally nothing has happening in this book. except of course, batman punching his friends (Gordon & Tim Drake) with no apparent repercussions. Tom's Batman feels so hollow. I say bring on issue 86!
I feel this is a response to the reveal in heroes in crisis. This is DC doing damage control because of the fans.
Loved this format and discussion. Comic Pop goodness just u guys roundtableing it
Seeing as the Hulk has outsold Batman, I'd say it's time for a change. Also this is the earliest I've been for one of these videos. Thanks for all the quality content!
@@thrawncaedusl717 A better example is how guardians of the galaxy made more money than man of steel. Yes it suggests that gotg was very good and people really enjoyed it but it also suggests that despite being the most recoginsed character the movie itself didnt speak to people as much. Overall I doubt the removal of king was purely sales but they obviously didnt help. Im more thinking that due to king's unconventional ideas on batman not doing as well as hoped and all the controversy he brings they decided it wasnt worth it (also I heard some higher ups didnt like his run)
Looking back, I wonder if his positive meeting with WB had anything to do with the fact that he's co-writing the New Gods movie
Detective comics is doing well on other hand with arkham knight
Barely....
Should he get to finish? Idk, why not ask Kite man or naked Bane?
Great video as always! Only thing maybe get a wider table. Poor Ben
Lol he could have pulled his chair more around the corner like I did....he just didn't.
Jack Kirby (Long live the King) didn't get to finish his Fourth World Saga until 1984 (11 years after cancellation). Tom King is no more special than Kirby.
Also, any bets on whether we see the double page ads with Batman's image declaring, "BENDIS IS COMING!"?
@Mark Halstead LMAO
You know what would make me happy. If DC did a double splash page ad with Batman on the ad and the ad says "Tom King is leaving". That would be hilarious. Although I do like Tom King's writing I'm pretty neutral about it. I'm not super into it but I do like the artwork that is put into it. I honestly didn't care 4 the Batman and Catwoman wedding. That wedding was super trashy and we all know who was behind it.
Love listening to this conversation and others on the comic line podcast! Looking forward to others!
*Reads title*
Oh I can answer this: YES!!!
Tom King's Batman run has been an assault on the character as a whole, and nothing that this man tried to do hasn't been "new" or "bold" or even "interesting"; it has been done, tired, and absurd.
King's run has been on a one way trip to hell since he botched the wedding in #50, and this is DC FINALLY course correcting things. Now they just need to deal Bendis...
I wasn't happy with a lot of DC books since Rebirth but because of that I found many IDW and Dynamite Comics I rather read.
old comment, but any in particular?
What if it's ending at 85 because DC made King cut the filler.
@ComicPOP I don't really have an opinion on this specific topic, but I really like these kinds of discussions on the Channel (for example, _Should Batman Kill?_ was very well done). Keep up the good work!
The Tom King/Brian Michael Bendis Batman/Superman combo is the reason I stopped reading DC books currently. You look at that, Doomsday delays, “Rick” Grayson and man, DC needs to shake things up.
Fire everybody
Just allow king to finish in graphic novel format. Release each mini arc as a singular novel and done. Would require a great deal less costs I would think and you get the conclusion.
Sales are still decent, if not as high as DC would want them to be. But offering King a new secondary title, like a new "Shadow of the Bat" or whatever, while putting a different writer (Bendis seems like the frontrunner, but Ben Percy is available as well and probably the more interesting option) on Batman, seems like the best possible move here. If you don't want more King, don't buy that new title. If you do, now you can.
man i appreciate the commentary
Was Hoping this would be the topic for Elseworlds Exchange this week - Wanna see u and Caped-Joel's back and fourth on this since he stayed with the title/run the whole time
But with this you get double the hosts, I feel like it's a win! 😉
@@TheRealZubes ya know... I guess that Works for me (keep up with the content btw, yall do a great job as a team)
"Sometimes you don't get to finish."
Ben, spouting the harsh truths.
Everyone's pointing towards Hulk as outselling Batman this month and saying "Batman's selling horribly". Could it be that Ewing's Hulk is just that good? It's been building a seemingly unstoppable hype train since it started and it's now in a lot of people's pull lists where previously they wouldn't even consider reading Hulk.
It can be both hulk doing well and batman underperforming
I suspect he was going to change Batman in a way that people were not going to be happy with.
Hell no, Tom King ruined so many good things built by his predecessors in the past couple years that I personally feel he should have been kicked off back around the issue 50 disaster.
at the same time tho, i feel like Snyder staying around and writing batman through dark nights and even the batman who laughs, as well as Tomasi doing detective have softened the blow. Kings run at this point can be neglectable and hasnt seemed important to the larger aspect of the DCU. wouldnt say he ruined the work done yet. just get him off and hire a great dude to commit to the next great run.
So happy you made a video on this! Really hope he gets taken off Batman asap. Going to be interesting how his small Superman run turns out. Same with Bendis writing Batman
A great video from ComicPop for my birthday to enjoy.
Happy Birthday!!!
Absolutely not. Next question.
All I know about his run is that Selina Kyle was convinced to just... Not marry Bruce at the last moment.
Oh. You probably would like to keeo it thay way, huh
I'll tell you what, if I ever actually make a comic video it will be explaining why All Star Batman and Robin is a misunderstood masterpiece.
I will have to agree with Ben on his point about a bad story not selling. Batman is a universally known character, so he should have a good story and a bad story can drive away readers. A smaller or indie book can have the best story ever, but less people care about that character.
I dropped it after the war of jokes and riddles. I liked vision so much and wanted to like batman as well.
Also I think Bendis needs to get off of Superman and let someone else should write superman and action comics not run by one person because Peter J Tomasi run on Superman got cut short for bendis but that's just my opinion.
No. Maybe. But preferably not.
I don't see how he's any different from any other creator. If they have a good reason to remove him, then that should be it.
I say let him finish, if he had a plan for 100 issues that means to me that there maybe a reason for the slow down arcs and the “filler”. Hell how many movies and or books have I read that tied up all these weird sideways glances that seem pointless but come back around and make sense in the end? Especially in things like multipart novels and more interesting art house type movies (hell look at Fight Club and Momento as two great examples) I am just saying it might be worth it for the final payoff - especially if they made sure Tom had a storyline that long when signing him to the book.
Idk, I feel its really hard to justify 7 issues of dream sequences. Id argue half of them were important (The bachelor party one was made cause the artist regretted not doing it earlier with king for example) and I dont think that sideways glances are as comparable as multiple issues of dreams.
I actually don't care if king gets to finish his series or not, every month I'm picking up the superior batman comic, detective comics by peter j. tomasi
Hell no Tom King ruined Batman
Worst interpretation of Batman of all time. It’s time to let Tom King go
Agreed
I guess you want to go back to 100 more issues of Snyders and Morrisons Super Bat
@@iwanttobelieve2 I want to go back to before that - when Batman was actually a hero that stood for justice and righteousness. Not the miserable, amoral wimp that he is now.
I’m conflicted. I have been a Batman fan for as long as I remember and really enjoy the psychological aspect of the character just as much as I do the visual and technical aspect of the character and his universe that he inhabits. I grew up on Batman the animated series and the justice league Unlimited show as well as the Arkham games. And of course I grew up watching the movies. Over time I began to understand why some of the lesser loved movies were criticized and why some of the more popular ones were celebrated. About five years ago I went back and started my Batman journey in the comic books taking breaks here and there. I can honestly say I actually really love Tom Kings run. I know I am most definitely in the minority. Personally, I really feel like they flushed out the character as he existed over the last 5 to 10 years and then said where can we logically push the character forward in a way that attempts to be concrete. But either way, it does upset me that there are Batman fans all over that are not enjoying Batman right now and if the consensus stands to be that there needs to be a change, I definitely think there should be. But I also like the idea of following through and finishing strong. Even if it’s not the strong that we believe, Tom King has dedicated his time living in the minds of these characters for years now and I feel he should be able to finish his story. And if the consensus is that he needs to be taken off the book, then take him off the book after he finishes. There’s nothing he can do that can truly destroy what came before it, that’s why comic book retcons are great, The next person and the authors that follow can simply ignore some of the things that he did. In an attempt to communicate my fair thought process of this, I really did not like the execution of Zach Snyder’s DCEU projects, but would have loved for the man to see his story finished. Ultimately I’m sad that there are a lot of Batman fans that aren’t getting what they want and believe that the things making that so will change eventually.
I like some parts of King's run (War of Jokes and Riddles and Bruce Wayne jury duty) but I think it is more of a potential problem if DC is this dependent on Batman.
Whenever i hear on topics like these all i can think about is how Lucky we were to have brian azzarello complete a 100 issues of a crime story that required a lot of attention span than the average story
I feel like Tom King should be allowed to "finish his story"... As much as I dislike his take on Batman, I want to see where it's going. But, King doesn't need 30 more issues to finish -- especially considering all the padding his stories have. I'd say let King tell his story, but force him to cut it down to fewer issues. No matter what King is planning, keeping him can't hurt more than fracturing the Batman fanbase through his firing.
Besides: no matter how crazy the stories in comics get, everything is only one "event comic" away from being reset to status quo.
Just saw the article you guys linked. That Batman/Catwoman #1 cover looks... weird. Also, maybe some Valiant titles on Back Issues like Faith or X-O Manowar? #ComicPop #BackIssues
I like King, his work on Vision and Mister Miracle is great. His cowriting with Tim Seeley on Grayson is pretty good. But I swear to god get him the fuck off of Batman
I haven’t read 80 issues because of kings writing
It’s interesting, since I myself like King’s writing, and for one, enjoy a lot of his works. That being said, if his intent was to write 105 or so issues, he should be able to finish it. It stinks when editorial gets in the way and meddles with author’s works.
That being said, King should be able to look at his Batman run as an accomplishment. How many comic book writers can legitimately say they’ve written a definitive run spanning 85 issues? Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison are two that immediately come to mind, but that in itself is and should be an accomplishment for King.
Though I can definitely say that some arcs for King’s Batman could have been shortened (Knightmares immediately comes to mind), some huge events pissed me off (the Wedding), and weird creative decisions (lots of naked Bane), I can say that I enjoyed most of what King had for Batman. Whoever is on the Batman project next (betting on Tom Taylor or Brian Michael Bendis), I will see what happens.
Regardless, it’s bad that editorial does meddle with the creators, but all we as fans can do is support our favorite and constructively criticize them in these types of times.
DJT does it really matter all that much how many issues a writer has writen?
Its funny you say that since king actually got an editor fired off of a book because he wanted david finch to draw the proposal page but the editor told him david was on vacation (wonder if thats why finch never came back to the book). Overall we will have to wait till its finished to say its definative but honestly I dont really think it is. Id personally never suggest this run if I wanted to get someone into batman considering how weird it is.
I didn't realize you were a Graphic Designer, Tiffany. Does anyone know anything she's worked on? I'm always trying to find other designers' styles and works.
THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. Sal and her are always dropping designer specific terms
I always love the suprise comic line. Just an extra bit of comic pop to spruce up the day
It's as simple as this: his sales trajectory will have the book under 40k by the end. For the single most popular superhero in the industry. It takes a special kind of stupid to ruin Batman.
Gotta say I never read the King run, but he had it tough from the start coming straight out of Snyder
yes i guess to me this is the most attention the batman comic has gotten with or without the controversy. But then again the next comic writer could just retcon King work in his run so does it really matter? When they themselves don't care for continuity?
Ive been a batman fanatic for over 20 yrs and i jumped off kings batman at issue 30. I hate his dipiction of batman. Please give someone new a chance.
Personally in my opinion I think Tom king should finish his story on Batman before he leaves on Batman but that’s just my opinion.
I always say this the company has a number that they feel each book should be selling and if they aren't hitting that number the book with either be cancelled or they will change creators.
I ran out to buy the issue where bane kills Alfred but omg it was not a good ending
I like the idea floating around that they might pull an All Star Batman like with Snyder to allow King to continue the story. IMO it's the ideal solution. Though it doesn't get past go if King really is going to do a "generational change".
Great discussion, but just pointing out that Hulk outsold Batman for a single issue due a having a bunch of store exclusive variants for that one issue, next month it'll be back well below Batman. So I doubt that has anything to do with it. So I don't think this has anything to do with sales numbers since Batman is still far and away the highest selling on-going comic from either DC or Marvel. I think it's far more likely something to do with the MASSIVE NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME AGAIN!!! change he wanted to make. It spooked the big wigs.
Don't forget about how Tomasi and Gleason had 100 issues planned but were kicked off for Bendis. If anyone should be allowed to finish their run it's them.
I personally liked everything up to the wedding. That is when I believe the book started to go downhill for me. But what really killed it was doing Knightmares when he teased Bruce vs Thomas, something he still hasn't delivered us yet.
No. He had his chance, there are many creators which was able to make amazing stories in many less issues, hell there are many oneshots that are better than whole run of King. He had so many fillers and bad stories he has to go. Since it looks like he will be leaving DC soon, give him something wierd like Sentry or Man-Thing for 12 issues he will make gold,
Personally I have no problem with it. We as readers did not know how it would end; DC does. And if DC doesn't like the upcoming story or wants someone else on the book, then they absolutely should switch writers. They have a perpetual IP to maintain, and if he's going to trash the IP, then absolutely he has no "right" to finish his story. Any writer has the ability to wrap up their arc and hand back the keys to the corporate office.
It makes me sad to see writers crash and burn but Tom King's Batman run was a dumpster fire.
Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooo
I dropped batman around issue 30 simply because nothing was happening in Kings run. No sense of progression that we've come somewhere with the character. The only thing interested me was the developing significance of the relationship between catwoman and batman (even w/ the bad dialogue). But most of the arcs are literally pointless filler to pad out issues so they could hold off the wedding till the nice round number of 50. I checked back in once at 50, only to find out that I had been cucked and we're all back to square one. King has had 71 issues so far to tell a story. 71 bloody issues and from what I've heard, still fuck all has happened. Terrible run, give him the boot.
I like to speculate that cause Tom King has so many projects coming up he had to reevaluate his story and trim the fat. Seriously Knightmare had an issue where it was only a chase scene. Maybe his story only needed 85 issues
Him getting forced to end at 85 May stop him from spinning his wheels anymore which may fix the pacing issues at least. Of course if King couldn’t be flexible then it’s going to end in a crash and burn and force the next writer to do a looot of clean up.
The day after this came out DC did there thing
i agree with sal. king has a little over a year left...let him finish it. i don't read it. i read detective comics. it doesn't affect me, personally. i don't want it to hurt other titles or the company, but 1: it is the highest selling comic for DC, 2: there is only a little over a year left, 3: the fans deserve the intended ending. all of those reasons COMBINED justify letting him finish ... if only one of the reasons were true it wouldn't be justified, but all of them are true, so...
To whoever is reading this, what is your main issue with the Tom King run of Batman? I can agree I didn't care for Knightmares. I did feel cheated with the Wedding issue. There is some good with his current run. Feels that people a bit more passionate about the dislike. So what is it about Kings Batman that grinds your gears?
Generally his writing of batman and other characters to a certain extent being off or weird, dialogue being too robotic or stiff and a general misinterpretation of who batman is at his core. Ive heard some people argue that he is basically just writing himself into these books and they are not completely without merit
Now I'm incredibly curious as to what it was that was going to change Batman. What could it have possibly been? I have to know!!!
Also, the trade sales of Batman are apparently tanking, so there's the threat that those sales are looking scary for DC.
No he shouldn't finish the run, finishing the run is basically rewarding him for not doing his job up to par.
Even Alfred dying felt anti-climatic, glad tynion got to take over