A large problem with Universes Beyond is player retention. If somebody has no interest in MtG, and they get into the game specifically to make a deck with an IP they -do- have aninterest in, their interest was still never in Magic. They were interested in the other thing. Some of these people may continue to play MtG, but most wont. Even if they still play those cards from time to time, they arent generally interested in cards from other sets, and wont continue to purchase product. Meanwhile, you dilute the identity of Magic's worlds and begin to push out established players who dont like the new direction. This creates a feedback loop where you need to keep producing the new content to make up for lost customers. But youre trading a steady, reliable, dedicated customer base in favor of a fickle, flimsy, capricious customer base. Its all being done for short term profits at the cost of long term financial health.
I couldn't have said it better myself. And, what happens when all the big IPs have already been exhausted? Smaller IPs won't bring in the players & profits they're looking for. It's a dead end
I'm so glad someone finally said this. They aren't coming into magic, they are just joining because of their IP. What worse though, is that Hasbro has now sold itself out to cater to these individuals. They've effectively changed what magic is and alienated its core base.
Trash take Way more magic players are nerds for other ips and will buy universes beyond I’m a huge ac fan and bought a lot of ac cards to use with my existing decks Same with dr who and fallout and warhammer Cry more
I Used to be a Vorthos... I would keep up with all the spoilers just to read flavor texts for the small tibits of lore, but between the product overload and universe beyond i dont think i am a Vorthos anymore... MTG lore may as well ended on war of the spark for me
MTG lore and stories have been getting wrung out without receiving the necessary time to breathe, what with the one-set plane visits and poor execution of those stories (spoiling the murderer in a small set video blurb!? Come on!) Personally I'm still a Vorthos. I'll just be doing it elsewhere for a while, I think.
I feel you so so much. For me the first blunder was BFZ and the killing of the Eldrazi, but with Emrakul imprisoned I was willing to see where they were going. Then WAR happened and god did they blunder that. For me, my love for MTG Lore never recovered from that. I'll never regret getting that MTG tattoo, this game gave me something to hold onto when there wasn't anything else foir me, but I guess I'm the boomer now, yelling at clouds, missing the old times...
The comment about Magic becoming a medium to showcase other IPs they don't want to interact with is spot on. I really, really dislike Marvel and the entire superhero genre, but now its going to be in my face for the next three years on Arena where I could previously avoid UB. I was initially pro-Universes Beyond but that has changed over the last year or so. If the cost of getting sets like Warhammer and LotR is Marvel and Spongebob that is not a price I want to pay. Also, I'm so tired of crossovers in general.
It’s MTG Arena. It doesn’t even count as playing Magic the Gathering. On the list of problems that Arena has, I doubt including UB would even break the Top 100. “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy”.
Without UB they'd just make a knockoff hero set, just as Innistrad is knockoff classic horror and Duskmourn is knockoff 80's horror. WotC is far past (some might say universes beyond) original IP
I agree. It really sucks that we as a playerbase now have little agency over how we interact with UB. I'm not excited about the directions of game design. It feels like Magic is losing its unique character to make a quick buck. Everything has become so unserious. I noticed that about other IPs I used to like, too. This whole pop culture doesn't stimulate the mind anymore. With all the crossovers it feels like they're preparing other for the outsourcing of creative work to A.I. Mindlessly mixing all the same old stuff together without inventing anything new without any consitency or rationality just because some Marketing person thinks, that is going to sell
@sosukelele We all would prefer a Magic IP knock off of such themes than just boring carbon copies. If I wanted superhero crap in my Sword n Sorcery game, I'd just play Superhero crap.
Counterpoint a lot of LGS communities are small and you can't always opt out of games if someone won't put a deck away you're either shunning that person or yourself to have nothing to do. Not universally the case but I feel like podcasts with regular groups forget these aspects too easily as a new commander player (not magic). I've gotten stuck in multiple games against decks that were not fun to play against because there is only like 2-3 Pods at my LGS and the pods don't rotate
Frfr let’s also not forget how uncomfortable it can be to ask a random guy to play a different deck, it honestly is pretty rude. Also because they are content creators they get a lot of people who WANT to play with them, whereas an average lgs guy doesn’t get that luxury
@Lazydino59 absolutely if some guy whips out a power 8 deck when I'm playing a precon but there is only 2 pods what do you do? Go home? I think magic players self regulate a lot less than people want to pretend they do. It's really left up to the LGS to regulate the play by setting proxy rules, power rules, and sometimes your LGS just doesn't do enough because they are afraid to chase customers away. Honestly at this point standard is starting to look more appealing than the chaos with all the power creep that has become commander. Can't play a single game without Rhystic Study or Bat shit enchantress deck ruining the pod. Would love to see wizards implement this system right 🤞🏼 then the LGS use it as a way to setup tables. IE you could have tables setup by what power you want to play for casual between 1-3 so you can actually get the games you want more easily.
The argument that UB brings in new players feels like it's just going to take us into the realm of appealing to no one because they tried to appeal to everyone. Not every hobby or game is for everyone, and that's perfectly ok. If people need UB to be interested in MtG, then maybe the game simply isn't a good fit for them and I would rather the game keep its identity and what makes it great rather than bend over backwards to try and pull them in, especially when it will frequently result in "tourists" rather than long term players. Regarding the release schedule and modern sets lacking the MtG feel, I think a huge part of this is because they abandoned blocks. When we had blocks we got to spend more time on a plane and could do more world building, helping to bring out a particular plane's identity. Current sets end up more like theme park rides, where you ride it for a couple of minutes and then it's onto the next one. I think blocks would also help make the release schedule feel slower paced since there would be a connection between the sets rather than radical jumps in themes and mechanics every new set. It would still help if they'd control themselves with the references, they just take you out of it when they're so on the nose and out of place.
My issue with universe beyond isn't that it basically erases the art style and themes of mtg, it's what Dana said. UB is happening regardless of whether or not the player base wants it. Wizards is clearly communicating that entrenched players are less important than new players.
the death of bottom up design really pains me. top down design is fine, but i really love when the mechanics inform the flavor of a set rather than the other way around.
This extent of UB-ification paired with recent world building choices feels creatively vacant to me. I stop short of calling it bankrupt, as there's still work and a little bit of there there, but we went from creating based on imagination from books to being told what things look like in visual media, if you'll accept the analogy. It's a different art and not fundamentally worse, but woof do i feel the loss of freedom and whimsy as it's been implemented so far
It might be my age, but it went from inspiration, seeing and hearing the stories and worlds wotc built like kaladesh to this year, where worlds feel like lukewarm diner food: acceptable and somewhat serviceable, but nowhere what I usually have or what I can get elsewhere.
The premises for all the sets were even pretty good, IMO - murder mystery on Ravnica, frontier/Wild West plane, haunted house plane, all cool. Ghirapur Grand Prix through the omenpaths is actually pretty dope. Except they fudged them by going too hard on the superficial concept (literally Clue, literally Wild West, literally 1980s analog horror, literally Wacky Races and Chandra on an Akira bike or whatever) that it doesn't feel as creative as some of the elements actually are.
(Dana) Yeah, UB stuff would be a lot easier to swallow if it didn't feel like most of the non-UB sets were non-IP specific UB sets. They've either lost the ability or lost the desire to make homage planes/sets in an elegant, subtle way. It's hats all the way down.
The main argument always is "these things bring more people into the game so it's good". More is not always better. Especially if it means losing the soul of the game. Having Marvel characters, dr who actors and other once meme-worthy IPs like Spongebob in the game feels like a bad joke, but has become a bitter and sad reality. Meanwhile beloved magic-characters become jokes, wearing cowboy costumes, traveling into space or driving race cars. The game has become so superficial and faded, it's a pain to watch. At least we got some new games in the last few years, like Flesh and Blood, Sorcery and other stuff, which hopefully can estabilish and give those players, who are sick of this nonsense, a new home.
One could say by being a niche hobby it actually serviced a specific group of people better than by becoming a shallow knock-off product that may serve a far greater number of people, but will definitely not have any people even closely as passionate.
A major issue with magic ip is their lack of fidelity to the characters, which leads to apathy about those characters. Take Daretti for example. The first time we see him he’s some kind of machine pope, draped in white, regal looking robes, and people loved that version. He was a super popular commander around my area, and seeing a Goblin planeswalker that wasn’t goofy was really cool. Then when we see him again he looks a lot more like Grenzo, darker and grungier, and frankly a little more generic goblin-ish. And now in his new card he looks like a chubby gearhead. Or how about Riku, a hip, clean shaven Asian character, who appeared as a grizzled white dude in thunder junction. How can anyone care about these characters if they don’t stay true to why we fell in love with them. It’s irritating because they seem to be able to keep some consistency with the gate watch planeswalkers, but those characters are generally written so badly it’s hard to like them. It’s the characters that have less story that people tend to get attached to, because we can imprint on them without baggage, but that’s compromised if that character is totally different the next time we see them.
I think Matt’s take on “power creep in magic is inevitable” was only half right. In eternal formats it definitely is, which is why commander cannot maintain being the face of magic. Part of what made magic such an amazing game was the rotation system, where power creep was NOT inevitable. Which as a byproduct made power creep in eternal formats much slower. We’ve seen more power creep in the past 3ish years than the previous decade+ combined when you look at modern and legacy and commander because of this.
as someone who quit when type 1/2 first came out, and just recently came back into Magic solely because of Commander. You are wrong.The majority does not want to keep buying and buying cards and making new decks to compete in a format. Commander, I can not play for a year, and still play and have fun, singleton is FAR LESS likely to care about power creep.
@@Lazydino59 hmmm…I’m not so sure that commanders popularity(ie the “face of magic) has as much to do with its power, IMHO the socialness of it is what gives it it’s popularity;it’s the fact that it’s multiplayer and the cost is “relatively” low(needing only one of each to create something that can hang with most other decks, not needing multiple copies of some really powerful or expensive card) that gives it its appeal. I think it has a lot of appeal because as it’s generally a four player game, the average wi rate is really low and that protects a lot of egos.
@ I don’t disagree with any of what you said, what I meant by “the face of magic” was moreso that it is the main focus of WOTC’s card design. A very close equivalent would be yugioh and Modern, where power creep is a necessary function to sell product. If you’ve seen the power creep in the past 5 years it was more than the previous 20 (having played this entire period I’ve experienced it first hand). Power spike used to be transient due to rotation but now it is permanent since there is no “safety valve” other than the banlist
My biggest complaint and the UB product is that not a single crossover has been due to designers thinking an IP are worth designing magic cards for, it's been an ad for a new tv show or content release in said IP every..... Single..... Time..... How was i ever supposed to think that a UB release was for magic when its always been tied with a new release in the other IP. "You mean its always been an ad?" "Always has been" 🔫
A really good anaolgy to the UB conversation is the american football team the Chargers. When the team moved from San Diego to Los Angeles, fans asked why the team moved from one city to another. The team's management responded with "40% of ourfan base is in Los Angeles." To which San Diegans said "what about the 60% that already exists here." UB is the exact same thing. Why chase a minority of fringe fans if it could alienate the core fan base.
One thing I want to get off my chest thet ive only just realized: Im about 20 minutes into the video. Usually, I absolutely adore all of the content you all at EDHRECast put Out, and I thank you for making this video! On the other hand, the longer I watch, the more I just get this deep sadness and it makes me want to quit watching this episode. I want to not look at or even think about Magic because it's just been one thing after another after another for the past like, 3 months.
I'm taking out every UB card I can out of my decks.... the last 2 I truly don't want to remove are actually lands, Rivendel and Minas Tirith (the extended art on those look normal for MTG and they are very good...) Besides those Im trying to eliminate UB from what I play. I'm voting with my wallet, just playing Universes Within Pre Release events and buying singles/boxes from those sets. Half of MTG is out of my menu, and Lorwyn set being pushed to 2026? I'm a faerie player..... it felt like a punch to the gut for me 🧚u.u
i don't know about everyone else, but ever since the announcement that WoTC is going all in for UB and it coming to standard and becoming virtually inescapable completely and the fact that the last 4 or 5 standard sets have been a complete miss, killed any interest i have for magic in general. i haven't bothered to check the foundations spoilers because i'm sorta checked out. one point i have to make, dana is absolutely wrong. magic thrived just well for 25 years before UB. some of us saw the writing on the wall with the walking dead UB and protested, you went along and here we are. and if WoTC didn't get punished for the magic 30 fiasco, they can do pretty much anything they want wether you like it or not.
When joey asked about concerns for the future, I just wanna point everyone back to episode 100(I believe) with Sheldon Mennery. When he was asked, he said competitive play/tournaments is what he fears, and I feel like that needs to be discussed more. When people are incentivized to put more skin in the game, that’s what causes prices and power to be crept up, hence exacerbating a lot of the other issues mentioned and increasing the feel-bads of bans like those recently.
@EDHRECast I guess that’s said, my logic was tournaments leads to more emphasis on cedh, which like all tournaments, drive up prices on powerful cards, which then encourages wizards to print powerful cards, and leads to feel-bads feelings even worse when those bans come with high price tags attached. Btw, thanks for responding, I appreciate the interactions. :)
I can definitely concur with competitive play being what would more properly tarnish the format. It always takes me aback when I see a comment that's like "It's hard to have a Rule 0 conversation when you've all payed to enter an event for prizes" and it's like why are you paying to play the game! Just...play it! And I know why, it's 'cause of those sweet sweet prizes or store credit or what have you, but those incentives are exactly what leads to the competitive mindset, 'cause you rationalize that the investment can pay itself off, or at least offset itself. Meanwhile when you don't play in a tournament, you get the same prize whether you win or lose: Another game of Magic.
@ something the Professor said resonated with me, the gist of it being of it being that what made the bans feel extra bad was the high price tag attached to it. Banning jeweled lotus or dockside would feel bad regardless, but it would hurt less if those cards were going for $20-30 instead of $70 to $90. In all fairness, the context he was referring to was a lack of reprints, but I think it can be expanded to include anything that would drive up the value of a card, and one thing that raises the value of a card is its tournament-worthiness. A card can’t have tournament-worthiness if there’s no tournaments to be had.
UB isn't just bringing in new players, It's mainly bringing in tourists. I've liked all of the properties that the major UB sets have been in (except AC but even then I played the first 3 or 4 of them) but now I dread the fact that FF and Spiderman are going to take over standard. As someone who likes UB I dont want to see it in standard and ESPECIALLY pioneer. I'd love more 40k because they were accurate with the lore and characters while LotR which is something I grew up loving was a set I was completely turned off of.
I do wish that WotC could have successfully pulled off getting the Magic IP into other things and mediums. A show like Arcane or a movie. Video games like Warhammer Darktide and Space Marine, movies like D&D Honor Among Thieves. That could have been really cool to bring more people into the Magic universe and it keep its fantasy roots. Maybe there is still hope that will happen.
Can’t say they didn’t try. There was the MtG comics and wasn’t there supposed to be a show too? I remember seeing an announcement a few years back but never saw updates
@@GioEs22the show was announced pre wots and has been in development hell. But it is still happening supposedly. As for the comics the problem is aren't they an entirely seperate timeline.
Said this years ago when the Warhammer decks came out and everyone complained the quality of the deck make up and design. Said we were going to loose the soul entirely one day and that is soon approaching.
In reference to the conversation about gatekeeping, is it also not gatekeeping to say that I don't want to play against a Tergrid deck because I'm not looking forward to that style of game? I feel this is the same for people who really don't want to play against Optimus Prime or Patrick Starfish. That's not really the kind of Magic game that I signed up for. How do we reconcile saying I can opt out of games with Armageddon but also call it gatekeeping if I don't want to play against Wolverine?
You don't understand! These other guys coming in with their Squidward and Homer Simpson Decks are _passionate_ about their love for their franchises! Who are you, a person who is merely passionate about the stupid mtg IP, to stop them from playing with you? Whatever they say is entirely legitimate, your opinion about this however doesn't matter!
@@AdamKeeton because one is totally reasonable and one is you being a petulant child. Saying you don't wanna play against mld is honestly pretty normal, but not wanting to play against your friends spongebob deck? Grow up
@@spudster8887 Who decides what is childish or not? By what measure are we using to determine what is childish? For example, observing two children argue on the playground, we notice that the argument often shift away from the main message an devolves into personal attacks--primaily through the use of name-calling: "You're dumb!" "Oh yeah?! Well you're stupid!" When an argument ventures away from substance into personal attacks, that is empirically childish. When you're ready to engage in the discussion and offer evidence and reasoning other than opinion and subjectivity to the discussion, I welcome your take. However until then, telling someone to "grow up" is the definition of a personal attack, implying that the defender is immature and childish when in fact the opposite is true in this case.
@AdamKeeton but you do need to grow up, if a piece of cardboard with spongebob on it bothers you so much, you ban it from your games. Especially when it's a completely valid game piece. There is a massive difference between a personal ban because it's unfun and one made because you dislike the direction the game has taken. By your logic, I should be able to ban midnight hunt and crimson vow from my games, because those sets were shit and I dislike them both. If you pulled that with me, I would literally just declare any commander you built to be something I don't like, so I shouldn't have to play against it. Where do you draw the line? Because in my view, that's what you're opening yourself up to.
@spudster8887 I believe you're missing my argument: I'm saying that we're calling it a "pregame discussion" to shadow ban cards like Stasis or Armageddon or even Commanders like Tergrid or archetypes like mono blue control or even "combo", but it's considered gatekeeping to say I don't want to play against cards that I personally don't like to play against across the table from me. Fun is subjective. I'm a hard core blue control mage and don't find it fair that we can judge one person's play style critically and harshly and be told to accept and that we're the problem when we speak up and don't want to play against something, we're told we're wrong
In terms of the power creep in commanders being printed now, ive been having a lot of fun building older cards that have more support now. My latest creation was revisiting my Molimo-Maro Sorcerer deck. The goal is the be the biggest, meanest, and greenest one punch commander possible. Cards like Traverse The Outlands help him go nuts! I really enjoy building decks where the commander doesnt solve every part of the equation though. Less powerful commanders make you less of a threat and more enjoyable for me to play at least
(Dana) I'm in full agreement re: how much more fun it is to build an older commander that doesn't top a solved deck. It is however significantly less fun playing one of those decks into a new commander that makes you feel like you're starting at 12 life with two cards in hand.
I love Marvel, I love Final Fantasy but I couldn't be sadder than to know that half of my favorite game will be UB stuff and the other half we will get cowboy hats and fedorars.., Sadly I am being commodified here too, we get to "pay" for a product that is advertising for another IP I don't know what else to say. somebody there is really disconnected with us and that makes me really worried for the future of the game I love. It's too much product and we said so many times but we are not listened to.
we cant do anything? u can: 1. dont buy the product. 2. u can make no content about the product or just less. 3. u can inform people and the company about ur opinion. there is so much u CAN do, but at what cost. thats for u guys decide.
That's my plan. I've never bought product from a UB set and I'm certainly not going to start now. Why give it the light of day if it's not what I care for? Idgaf how powerful or mechanically interesting the cards are... that's not how I play magic
After the announcement 2 of my playgroups banned UB. And many of those players have UB decks or at least UB cards in them, me included. It was just the best step to take, you cant draw a line and say "oh LOTR is still on flavor but Dr Who isnt" We just banned UB, seems like most of the people I play with don't want to equip Darth Vader with a Hoverboard in two years.
I was in that game that Dana was able to drop all the amphibian downpours! That was a fun game Dana and I remember I was able to just barely pull it off with my Mono red Calamity shenanigans!
I’m going to offer a different POV on this coming from a similar (yet still very different) area of the gaming space - gacha games. Gacha games are a lot closer to something like Magic Arena where players will use free or paid in game currency to roll for characters, weapons or whatever the game’s progression system is based off of so it is extremely similar to cracking packs. Some games will also have a PVP system but balance gets tricky because people that pay more money tend to have stronger characters. Gacha games are constantly collaborating all the time with either other Anime or other games - some much more than others. At the end of the day though every gacha game still has and retains it’s core identity because it’s the core gameplay that players will stay for. Collaborations drive in a ton of new players but a lot of them will pick up and drop the game fast. These companies ultimately just need to convert a certain percentage of new players into Whales and they’ve made they’ve money back + more. I imagine Magic will end up going in a direction similar to Puzzles and Dragons or Fortnite where we’ll get a ton of different collaborations from basically any IP. I’m optimistic that this will bring in tons of new players to Magic which is something I’ve always wanted. Finally I just wanted to note that at least for myself Magic was always about the gameplay above anything else. There’s a reason why I quit both Pokemon and Yugioh tcgs. While I preferred the art of both their gameplay was just not it for me. Magic has and still does offer the best gameplay of any card game out there and I firmly stand behind that. This doesn’t completely excuse them ignoring their own world building but as long as the gameplay remains fun I’ll keep playing it.
Foundations will probably end up being my favorite set this year, mainly because it feels like the Magic I fell in love with. It also feels somehow nostalgic, even in its freshness, even as the paint dries, because it signals to what Magic used to be. Because it shines like a newfound nugget in a sieve, nestled radiant among the gray stones. Because it appears so mismatched in the world that has begun to unravel before us.
To gauge the power level of my decks, ive been asking after games for my opponents to give me a number, and over time ive gotten a better understanding of where my decks power level are. Before games i usually ask about winning through combat or combos, how many tutors, and what turn does a deck win on. If my opponents are going for combat or combo, so will I. I keep my tutors to archetype specific, including fetches i keep on color. And i know the range of sol ring starts that can bring a deck to winning on turn six, but on average on turn ten.
I appreciate the discussion about power creep finally. That was my first concern when the banlists hit a while back moreso than the actual bans themselves It's kind of interesting to look at the power level of the average deck, and then also the power level of the average precon. That's the bar to clear and the barrier to entry. If you want to address issues of power level mismatch across the entire player base, or the issues of pubstomping/sore losing, or the constant back and forth discussion about the utility and misallocation of rule zero, you would be naive not to address that barrier to entry and average power level increasing consistently. Touting that we need to address the need to support more casual, goof around games are in direct conflict with the metagame getting more powerful. I would also argue commanders being thier own toolbox and payoff robs some of the creativity and ingenuity of deck building. The fun of deckbuilding was in the creation of something functional out of cards you wouldnt expect to synergize. Commanders themselves do that all in a single card now. Instead the deck building focus is the optimization of a commander or build. By the numbers the most optimal versions of a deck will always surface ensuring more homogeneous decks and play patterns. Commander, paradoxically, gets competitive in this casual format and no one agrees on how to handle it.
Let it happen. Why are we playing a game to not win? Why is this a thing? The participation trophy kids want the same experience as the diehards and deck building pro's. Sorry, it shouldn't be like that.
@steveolie985 yeah I'm not here to say that power creep itself is bad. I'm here to say the way it's running is contributing to the rampant issues we are seeing today and I'm trying to point out that we as a community are wholly uncritical of that fact. Wizards power creeps with a priority to make money, not to balance a game. It largely contributes to the unhealthy play environment we are always talking about.
Nobody mentions rule changes that ALSO happened with foundations with combat assignment, while it doesn't impact much. The matter that it was announced so low-key, i think WotC should communicate these changes differently. Not everyone is aware of all the drama and updates going on. Especially it's spoiler season after spoiler season...
I have nothing against UB themselves. I am a newbie to Magic (by some standards), since I came around Midnight Hunt dropped. I didn't get to experience the original IP's timeline develop at it's peak, but I still got into the game. I just hope that in those 50% of original IP we'll get to see not only returns to classic (although I am hyped for Lorwyn, since I heard it was dope), but also planes we only got to see in lore or even completely new. Culture themed sets like MKM, OTJ and Duskmourn were decent, but I want to see more of Bloomburrows of the world - that one slapped with card design and mechanics.
One thing a lot of people overlook is licencing issues later on. For example, it's perfectly plausible that something like Final Fantasy isn't allowed on Arena anymore after a few years because the agreement has run out or Square has had a change of mind. It's pretty much happened on MTGO where the Warhammer cards are not allowed in the Vintage cube.
Thank you guys for finally making me felt heard. I feel a lot of the discurs around this has rapidly devolved into people splitting of into haters and fans. Your discussion was the first I watched that didn't feel disingenuous but toom all the concerns seriously. Thank you guys, really.
I'm very glad to see some recognition with the trend of "Do your thing: Do it again", or it's cousin "Do your thing: Draw a card" that plagues a lot of modern commander designs. There's definitely a building pressure of sorts because such commanders basically make every card worth double, either on board or due to cantriping, so to not play one you're basically playing with half as many resources as everyone else. Not every, or even most, commanders fall into that mold, luckily, but they do often take the top spot in what folks want to build, or are the designs for more niche strategies you hope to be neat but it's like "Finally, a trilobite commander that cares about trilobites! Aaaand the synergy is drawing cards." Though besides that, I don't think self-fueling commanders are otherwise egregious, at least generally speaking, if only to be considerate to limited concerns where you might only get one or two other goblins, so it's fine for the mythic goblin to make goblins and also do something when goblins die because otherwise it'd be a dead card if it just had the death ability. On the plus side, I do think they still make a fair few commanders for the thinkers among us. They're often at the uncommon level, though even at rare or even mythic sometimes they exist. But even out of 20 legends a set, the top 5 are the more double-card value designs and have as many decks as the other 15 put together, you're not gonna be seeing many of those other ones.
Commie Commander here, I think one of the really good things you guys struck on was how wizards of the Coast Prince powerful stuff and then leaves it up to the players to have to deal with. Now if we lived in a world where all the players would wise up and proxy all of their cards or at least proxy all of the cards outside of their budget so everybody would be on the same playing field as far as card accessibility and then we could have those discussions about hey this is the kind of game I want we might get somewhere. But that's not realistic. Some people they might have access to one or two or 52 different decks to choose from so they can pivot whenever they want. Some people just might not be able to swing more than one deck at best and if they commit to it and we have a community that still hasn't fully embraced proxies it's going to create not a great feel if the answer is well you just don't have to play against that person. So that part right there I don't agree with the command zone. However in that same video they also pointed out that when they were talking about Commander such as braids if you know you're playing against braids you know what to expect and you know how to deal with it. (Besides the fact that braids is laughably outclassed so hard now). And what I fear the future of commander is If we as a community do not push back against wizards of the Coast and the commander format panel and we allow only them to gauge or decide what the power bracket figures are going to be it's going to keep getting worse that divide is going to keep happening. Unrelated to this post I am starting a project of getting something spun up to give the community the tools to be able to offer their own input on what they feel each cards power bracket is. Outside of the influence of the commander format panel and wizards of the Coast. Because I don't exactly trust everybody on the commander format panel to have the game's best interest and not to have any conflict of interest with the financial side that they choose to put in to their cards. And I definitely don't trust wizard of the Coast who have absolutely a profit motive hiding behind the corners with how they decide which cards are which power given the fact that they can artificially make any of those cards more scarce when they want.
I know the whole discussion about commander design has felt almost closed and solved by now, but it's really worth continuing to hammer home how much of a problem this is if left unchecked. Voja may feel like old hat but the text on the card hasn't changed and it's still emblematic of the type of power creep WotC is choosing to introduce into the format. The situation of spiralling expectations from WotC on card design and then consequently by players on WotC is something that might be too late to stop, but I hope that's not the case. I don't want Commander to become even more like Singleton Legacy. Also, I've never attended a MagicCon because Europe, but it sounds like the kind of person who goes to a con is already much more invested in making sure the games go smoothly, so I'm really glad you guys had no speed bumps there! Anecdotally though just yesterday in a local cEDH chat I saw someone ask if it's ok to proxy a cEDH deck against a pod of kitchen table players using precons, so the problems are still very much out there...
See wotc is stuck in a tough place with UB because the average magic player loves ub and it gets more people into the game and they sell really well but the established most invested players like the magic for magic’s aesthetic and a lot of them would prefer the sanctity of the game as strictly high fantasy aesthetic
I forget where I heard but apparently 2/3 of players have been playing less than 10 years, which means most players “grew up” in the UB era, and there has been a clear exodus of long-time players
I gotta thank Joey for the potential "gatekeeping" feeling that videos and conversations can lean towards. Some people may not like the fact that Spongebob is gonna be across the table from them, but they can still appreciate the joy that the player is experiencing. And if they REALLY don't like it, they can always ask if the Spongebob player can play something else
Im definitely part of the "problem" ive never pretended magics story was any good and have always wondered since i found magic in 94 how my favorite characters from other properties would look and work in the mtg framework. Finally getting magic cards with quality lore connected to it thanks to UB has gotten me more excited for new sets, aetherdrift also has me excited as a motorcycle enthusiast
Similar to the “simic, then simic again” problem, is the rube goldberg problem of an abundance of triggered abilities without costs, and doublers / n+1 effects. We saw a ton of these in Foundations and I expect many more decks to have ooops i combo’d out with 2-3 value pieces moments.
I think interpretation of data is important. Maro mentioned that the UB decision stemmed from the metrics that were showing that UB is incredibly popular, but I think it's easy for them to mistakes based on that data. In this case, assuming that UB being popular means it should come to every format.
11:50 I think Joey is spot on with the concern here. They got an unexpectedly positive reaction to MSRP returning, and an unexpectedly negative one to the UB announcement. I don't know where they're getting their data from (just sales?) or maybe that's just because the audience at a MagicCon is going to be more enfranchised players who are not looking for this.
I just finished playing Foundations and it feels SO bittersweet because I feel this is the last year I will be playing magic at the rate I was doing. I think nothing calls out to me except Edge of Eternities and the Tarkir set next year. That’s also a BIG problem with UB: Mtg sets call out to mtg players, UB sets calls to a very specific group of magic players that ALSO love another pop culture IP and/or people that are fans of the IP that would finally give Magic a try thanks to that set. It feels so finicky.
38:01 Dana's comment here is easily my biggest ongoing concern about how WOTC has been designing for Commander... My golden rule for deckbuilding for the last 10+ years has been to build decks in such a way that it is possible for everyone to have a good game experience. And the easiest way to break that rule is to have a commander (Kaalia is still my go-to example) which makes it impossible for everyone at the table to play the game and have a good time: either the Kaalia player doesn't get to play with their commander, or nobody else gets to play the game, either way someone isn't getting a good game experience. It seems like these days there are more Kaalias than ever, which also normalises playing those kinds of kill on sight commanders, and even causes players to learn to always kill commanders as an easy threat assessment heuristic...
I would unironically love a Bob Villa commander deck if they could pull it off. My dad always had This Old House on in the background when I was a kid.
It's kinda wild how Magic is in this eternal state of controversy and "it's so over" "magic is dead" while Pokemon hits homerun after slam dunk after hattrick (excluding the video games). As a magic guy it's bittersweet how much I'm enjoying the new Pokémon TCG game and reflecting on how as much as they cheese certain things they never deviated from the strength of their own story and characters.
The only thing I’d like to say regarding the frog slowly boiling is, people immediately freaked out about the walking dead secret lair printing new cards. So it’s not that the water has been slowly boiling, it’s that wizards/hasbro had been gaslighting players into thinking they are wrong about how hot the water is. I started playing at modern horizons three after not playing for fifteen years. So this is all stuff I’ve heard not experienced. But I think the larger issue is wizards keeps lying/changing their promises. Originally ub wouldn’t be in standard and after the back lash they promised in universes versions. Now both of those things are not true. So what are we supposed to do when we keep getting lied to
i def want an alaskan bull worm in the spongebob set lol with that said, im happy with these new sets. It gives the writers time to really take the time to continue the magic lore in a great way and not rush it and make the story like the last two season of game of throne. you cant rush creativity sometimes.
Like Dana, I'm at the point of acceptance, which for me means accepting that I won't be purchasing at least 50% of the magic sets going forward. Unfortunately, I also agree with Dana that a lot of the in-universe sets we're getting aren't even in the magic universe (wild west, etc.).
I do think how much people are going crazy that SpongeBob’s getting a Secret Lair when things like Fortnite and My Little Pony both got ones a good while back and I’m not seeing anybody reference them when talking about it. Also, in terms of main sets feeling like non-main sets, Ikoria was literally just a Kaiju set.
I've always been totally fine with Secret Lair. In fact, I quite like them. It's a way for other artists to stretch their legs and show off their unique style. It's also a way to include these more whacky IPs that doesn't feel as intrusive as Universe Beyond. Functionally, they're just alters. So Spongebob as a Secret Lair? Sure. It's weird, but sure. If it becomes a UB set? *THAT* is where I have problems. Thankfully we aren't there yet. Also thank you so much for using my submission! I was actually a bit bummed when I realized Compost was a non-bo because dang it would have been such good card draw xD.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t WotC say once upon a time that all of the UB stuff would eventually get reprinted into MTG appropriate flavorings? Isn’t that what happened with the Stranger Things stuff? Eleven(I think, I don’t watch the show) was made into Cecily, Haunted Mage? If that’s the case, I think it’s about time WotC either made good on that, or remind the player base that they have that intention.
In my mind, I read this situation as WOTC/Hasbro trying to cut corners. At the pace they are releasing product, it's very plausible that they are trying to create some space for them to create those unique magic IP sets and just using the UB sets as the buffer in between. Obviously there's a profit incentive that is likely the primary driving force, but the creative leeway it gives the dev team could also be a factor at play here.
magic is profitable without UB. magic is popular without UB. UB is just to pad hasbro's pockets with the short term profit derived from speculators and fans of other IPs who will not stick around.
I guess a small positive, if you don't appreciate the Universe Beyond is that you can avoid these alternative sets and hence Wallet Fatigue. It's a small positive 😅
some people say to just ignore UB cards when building decks, but for more niche themes like my cast from exile Loot deck, it’s pretty much reliant on at least 3, if not 4 or 5 UB cards to have any amount of viable payoffs to casting from exile. It means that if I want my deck to do it’s thing, it has to use UB cards when, if they just printed regular magic cards instead, I might get to use cards from the universe I love so much instead. Luckily the cards aren’t too egregious, flaming trex feeling most out of place and me cutting Iraxa because she felt like a step way too far outside of magic, but it’s a shame anyway
Why do people specifically hate acrobatic cheerleader? The professor says he hates it in one of his videos but I haven't been able to find out why. They show it in this video too at 15:03.
The only card I hope is very playable in the Spongebob set, IF they make it, is the Krabby Patty. Only to make a Horadric Hamburger alter to rep Diablo instead. Love yall's work!!
One take I haven't seen yet is about set construction. With stuff like Capenna and Lorwyn, you need all the small lore tidbits on the cards, the minor players, the side characters and dirt and grass and brick and mortar - the draft chaff that you still need, but play no role in the plot - alongside the major players. In a UB set, EVERYTHING is a reference. It gets no arc, no mood setup. Nothing new to explore or to excite, no connections to seek and make the set feel alive. Just 'oh hey I know this thing'. Just collectible intertextuality.
Rather than being upset/annoyed/mad about where magic is or where it's headed i just built a cube. I can't recommend it highly enough and it's my go-to advice for anyone that wants to steer clear of Universes Beyond stuff. (Also, to anyone thinking about making their first cube, it's easier to start with a set cube - and Foundations looks like a pretty good choice)
I think where Bloomburrow succeeded while the others of 2024 felt like cheap skins was, it was still a fantasy & folk legend set, just in a dimension where the characters had fur & feathers. Everything else was disparate genre over familiar characters. (And maybe Duskmourn kinda worked, despite its heavy-handedness, because horror is also in MTG's DNA.)
Lack of card sale availability and the general bitterness of the" normal" players (with lack of pool, increasing frustration) will no doubt increase Proxies.
I've been kicked out of games and insulted for enjoying UB. I actually really enjoy the IPs that WotC are working with, and I have had to stop going to the game store to play Friday Night Magic because I get crap every time I try to play some of my favorite decks that I took a lot of time and money to build. It's effectively made it so I can only play with my friends that live almost an hour away or just play against myself.
18:54 The thing i really think that a lot of people here miss with the change from 4 to 6, is that those sets arent just coming out of nowhere, those are the commander legends, conspiracy, masters slots etc. Theyre just being changed to standard legal. So they werent really designing 6 new worlds under 6 sets, 2 of 4 sets being UB would have been less than 50% not just 50% with fewer sets total, etc. We are losing the non standard experimental expressions of magic to more UB advertising slop, and i just cant see it working long term, especially for standard. It's very different to be a fan of say final fantasy and get into commander where you can build a FF theme deck, or its ff and most of the rest are magic IP. Are you going to be excited to play standard where your Sephiroth deck needs to play with spiderman
Yeah, I'm a pretty new magic player who was, quite honestly, only brought to magic because they did a Doctor Who set.I love the game now, but that was what got me in the door after years on the sidelines. I love those cards! I've made half a dozen doctor who commander decks! I love Fallout and Final Fantasy too! And yet... Universes Beyond taking up space in main sets really feels bad, especially as a fan of these UB cards. To think that the other IPs that I hold so close are now going to causes for frustration for the magic players who have actually carried this game for year just feels so bad. because these should be aspects of Casual magic, not something that everyone has to engage with to be lovers of this game.
I also love the game more than I hate UB. The way I see it is next year I can focus on tuning the decks I have with singles here and there, and give my wallet a breather 😅
@EDHRECast I assume it's your blue devotion deck or Silumgar. It absolutely makes sense in that deck, but I have to clarify I can't see making the cut in most decks that want that type of effect in general.
These announcements have really already changed my relationship with magic. Ive been playing for most of the last 23 years and im pretty heavily invested, but I chose magic specifically because of it's world, because it wasnt a crossover game like others on the shelves. A little bit of UB was fine, reskins were great, but the volume its increasing too so rapidly is just fundamentally changing what the game is. Yes it also doesnt help how tropey recent sets have been, how bad the finale of the Phyrexia arc was, etc. I had a lot of issues with Karlov manor and Thunder junction, but i still gave them a try, i probably would have done the same with Aetherdrift, but now im just not going to bother. Since the announcements i have taken apart my recently built standard deck, i have started watching less magic content and unsubscribed from several channels(and likely more by the time the year is out), unfollowed the reddit and am about to delete my account there now that the foundations spoiler season is done. I've only had the motivation to make it to one magic event since, and that only because id already paid for entry. Next year will be the first year that i will skip a prerelease by choice(rather than work or other commitments) since i came back from my break with Scars of Mirrodin and it feels awful.
I don’t usually care too much if I don’t vibe with most of the sets each year as long as I really like one or two I’m more than happy. I didn’t like outlaws or Karlov manor very much and didn’t really buy a lot of lord of the rings but I did like duskmorn enough to throw some money at. With how many sets are releasing I can’t afford to go all in every set and just flat out skip most sets and buy a few singles I need for a deck. Next year I really only plan on going in on final fantasy so far and I think it’s okay to only pick up boxes from a set or two every year. I definitely wish they would slow down on the UB sets (and honestly the amount of sets each year in general) but I get why people get excited when one of their favorite IPs gets a set. My roommate went all in on lord of the rings and someone who’s just starting out in our play group is excited for the marvel stuff. Neither are really my jam but I’m happy they’re excited about a set
If WotC wants new content that feels fresh to avoid reprinting new "bland" sets in existing IP, then I really think that M:tG should explore Arabian Nights, Mirage/Visions, and Three Kingdoms more. Even a new version of Homelands could be cool. I'd also suggest that there is room for a sets based in North American Native American, Russian, South/Central African, and/or South East Asian culture. Finally, for future sets and/or Universes Beyond, we could pull ideas from different Western fantasy IP's like: Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, The Witcher, Earthsea, Shadow and Bone, Chronicles of Amber, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Chronicles of Narnia, Discworld, or fantasy mythology from European cultures. Basically... I want to see more "swords & sorcery" themes with new material from different cultures or IP that is within the theme instead of popular IP that seems jarring in a fantasy/mythology setting.
I’ve been fine with Universes Beyond when the sets are small or just precons (Fallout, Assassin’s Creed, Doctor Who) because generally the cards in the 99 are relatively accessible from a “pretend it’s not UB” perspective. My issue with full sets (which I don’t think I’ve experienced yet… I came to the game just after Lord of the Rings) is that there will be hundreds of cards that probably kick ass that will have me thinking “do I have pride and integrity?” every time I build a deck. I dislike Marvel (mainly because of everything it stands for in the genericification of trash media fed down our throats) but out of all the Marvel I have even less like for Spiderman! So when there’s a full set, and that’s 1/6 of all the cards released in a year, it’s almost like there’s a pseudo ban list applying to me… unless I get on my knees and kiss the corporate ring. I really like the design of that Storm legendary too… 😢 I’m definitely hypocritical because I previously felt UB stuff was fine and people were overreacting… but now it’s about to hit me personally xD
I have a feeling that the over-saturation of UB is going to have new players go "wait theres this old cool stuff" or "holy shit the old stuff rocks! give me that!" and pushes the desire for "Magic the Gathering"'s worlds, or it all implodes so hard and the game withers and Hasbro goes bankrupt
Do I like that we are getting a Spongebob or Spiderman commander? No. Do I think they are doing too much Universes Beyond stuff? Yes. Does any of this worry me about the state of the game? No. What does worry me, mostly on a long term level, is the rules committee no longer being an independent entity. That there is nothing to attempt a check on corporate greed and short sightedness but the consumers is deeply worrisome.
The announcements of next year's releases have turned me off from buying any mtg product ever again. If they want to sell out entirely, they can, but I see no use or sense on buying into the secondary market (I'm not going to buy any of the sets from next year anyways) based on prices for 'collectors' when I don't feel like the cards are collector items anymore. They are gamepieces, and if I wouldn't pay to replace a figurine of Monopoly rather than choose any trinket to replace it, then I don't see the reason to do anything but print all of my cards from now on.
I haven't yet decided to sell out of Magic, but to me, the universe of Magic is an essential part of why I played the game, and I'm no longer excited about Magic when it's only a game system and not a full game.
![Six Hundred Strike [EPIC: The Musical] Full Animatic](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zov6NXIAuow/mqdefault.jpg)
A large problem with Universes Beyond is player retention. If somebody has no interest in MtG, and they get into the game specifically to make a deck with an IP they -do- have aninterest in, their interest was still never in Magic. They were interested in the other thing. Some of these people may continue to play MtG, but most wont. Even if they still play those cards from time to time, they arent generally interested in cards from other sets, and wont continue to purchase product.
Meanwhile, you dilute the identity of Magic's worlds and begin to push out established players who dont like the new direction. This creates a feedback loop where you need to keep producing the new content to make up for lost customers. But youre trading a steady, reliable, dedicated customer base in favor of a fickle, flimsy, capricious customer base. Its all being done for short term profits at the cost of long term financial health.
Finally, someone else who sees this. This is the true hidden cost of their choices.
I couldn't have said it better myself. And, what happens when all the big IPs have already been exhausted? Smaller IPs won't bring in the players & profits they're looking for. It's a dead end
I'm so glad someone finally said this. They aren't coming into magic, they are just joining because of their IP. What worse though, is that Hasbro has now sold itself out to cater to these individuals. They've effectively changed what magic is and alienated its core base.
Trash take
Way more magic players are nerds for other ips and will buy universes beyond
I’m a huge ac fan and bought a lot of ac cards to use with my existing decks
Same with dr who and fallout and warhammer
Cry more
@@LeonJohnson-yi3hgGUYS! WE FOUND THE ALEXIOS PLAYER!!!
Wow, it's almost like we knew this would happen when WALKING DEAD came out ...
We have slipped down the slope
people vote with their money, their words are empty
@@21KikoshiIf whales are voting, your wallet has no power.
@@GerBessa but its not just whales its evryone
@@21Kikoshi 100 players won’t move the needle half as much as 1 whale.
I Used to be a Vorthos...
I would keep up with all the spoilers just to read flavor texts for the small tibits of lore, but between the product overload and universe beyond i dont think i am a Vorthos anymore...
MTG lore may as well ended on war of the spark for me
MTG lore and stories have been getting wrung out without receiving the necessary time to breathe, what with the one-set plane visits and poor execution of those stories (spoiling the murderer in a small set video blurb!? Come on!)
Personally I'm still a Vorthos. I'll just be doing it elsewhere for a while, I think.
I feel like magic has been on new game+ since then.
I feel you so so much. For me the first blunder was BFZ and the killing of the Eldrazi, but with Emrakul imprisoned I was willing to see where they were going. Then WAR happened and god did they blunder that. For me, my love for MTG Lore never recovered from that. I'll never regret getting that MTG tattoo, this game gave me something to hold onto when there wasn't anything else foir me, but I guess I'm the boomer now, yelling at clouds, missing the old times...
The comment about Magic becoming a medium to showcase other IPs they don't want to interact with is spot on. I really, really dislike Marvel and the entire superhero genre, but now its going to be in my face for the next three years on Arena where I could previously avoid UB. I was initially pro-Universes Beyond but that has changed over the last year or so. If the cost of getting sets like Warhammer and LotR is Marvel and Spongebob that is not a price I want to pay. Also, I'm so tired of crossovers in general.
It’s MTG Arena. It doesn’t even count as playing Magic the Gathering. On the list of problems that Arena has, I doubt including UB would even break the Top 100.
“You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy”.
Going to be at least 3 years. Spiderman next year, and that's just the beginning of Marvel set's.
Without UB they'd just make a knockoff hero set, just as Innistrad is knockoff classic horror and Duskmourn is knockoff 80's horror. WotC is far past (some might say universes beyond) original IP
I agree. It really sucks that we as a playerbase now have little agency over how we interact with UB. I'm not excited about the directions of game design. It feels like Magic is losing its unique character to make a quick buck. Everything has become so unserious. I noticed that about other IPs I used to like, too. This whole pop culture doesn't stimulate the mind anymore. With all the crossovers it feels like they're preparing other for the outsourcing of creative work to A.I. Mindlessly mixing all the same old stuff together without inventing anything new without any consitency or rationality just because some Marketing person thinks, that is going to sell
@sosukelele
We all would prefer a Magic IP knock off of such themes than just boring carbon copies.
If I wanted superhero crap in my Sword n Sorcery game, I'd just play Superhero crap.
Counterpoint a lot of LGS communities are small and you can't always opt out of games if someone won't put a deck away you're either shunning that person or yourself to have nothing to do.
Not universally the case but I feel like podcasts with regular groups forget these aspects too easily as a new commander player (not magic). I've gotten stuck in multiple games against decks that were not fun to play against because there is only like 2-3 Pods at my LGS and the pods don't rotate
Frfr let’s also not forget how uncomfortable it can be to ask a random guy to play a different deck, it honestly is pretty rude. Also because they are content creators they get a lot of people who WANT to play with them, whereas an average lgs guy doesn’t get that luxury
@Lazydino59 absolutely if some guy whips out a power 8 deck when I'm playing a precon but there is only 2 pods what do you do? Go home?
I think magic players self regulate a lot less than people want to pretend they do. It's really left up to the LGS to regulate the play by setting proxy rules, power rules, and sometimes your LGS just doesn't do enough because they are afraid to chase customers away.
Honestly at this point standard is starting to look more appealing than the chaos with all the power creep that has become commander. Can't play a single game without Rhystic Study or Bat shit enchantress deck ruining the pod.
Would love to see wizards implement this system right 🤞🏼 then the LGS use it as a way to setup tables.
IE you could have tables setup by what power you want to play for casual between 1-3 so you can actually get the games you want more easily.
Fair point.
The argument that UB brings in new players feels like it's just going to take us into the realm of appealing to no one because they tried to appeal to everyone. Not every hobby or game is for everyone, and that's perfectly ok. If people need UB to be interested in MtG, then maybe the game simply isn't a good fit for them and I would rather the game keep its identity and what makes it great rather than bend over backwards to try and pull them in, especially when it will frequently result in "tourists" rather than long term players.
Regarding the release schedule and modern sets lacking the MtG feel, I think a huge part of this is because they abandoned blocks. When we had blocks we got to spend more time on a plane and could do more world building, helping to bring out a particular plane's identity. Current sets end up more like theme park rides, where you ride it for a couple of minutes and then it's onto the next one. I think blocks would also help make the release schedule feel slower paced since there would be a connection between the sets rather than radical jumps in themes and mechanics every new set. It would still help if they'd control themselves with the references, they just take you out of it when they're so on the nose and out of place.
Agree with the First paragraph entirely
My issue with universe beyond isn't that it basically erases the art style and themes of mtg, it's what Dana said. UB is happening regardless of whether or not the player base wants it. Wizards is clearly communicating that entrenched players are less important than new players.
(Dana) I've decided I'm along for the ride regardless, but I get why someone might not be.
the death of bottom up design really pains me. top down design is fine, but i really love when the mechanics inform the flavor of a set rather than the other way around.
This extent of UB-ification paired with recent world building choices feels creatively vacant to me. I stop short of calling it bankrupt, as there's still work and a little bit of there there, but we went from creating based on imagination from books to being told what things look like in visual media, if you'll accept the analogy. It's a different art and not fundamentally worse, but woof do i feel the loss of freedom and whimsy as it's been implemented so far
It might be my age, but it went from inspiration, seeing and hearing the stories and worlds wotc built like kaladesh to this year, where worlds feel like lukewarm diner food: acceptable and somewhat serviceable, but nowhere what I usually have or what I can get elsewhere.
@wedgearyxsaber yeah, difference between even Ixalan, much less Lorwyn, and Thunder Junction is truly stark
The premises for all the sets were even pretty good, IMO - murder mystery on Ravnica, frontier/Wild West plane, haunted house plane, all cool. Ghirapur Grand Prix through the omenpaths is actually pretty dope. Except they fudged them by going too hard on the superficial concept (literally Clue, literally Wild West, literally 1980s analog horror, literally Wacky Races and Chandra on an Akira bike or whatever) that it doesn't feel as creative as some of the elements actually are.
(Dana) Yeah, UB stuff would be a lot easier to swallow if it didn't feel like most of the non-UB sets were non-IP specific UB sets. They've either lost the ability or lost the desire to make homage planes/sets in an elegant, subtle way. It's hats all the way down.
Maybe my friends and I are all just grumpy and old but we freaking hate UB.
Hey Dana was nice meeting you at magic con thanks for using my dad's joke I'll let him know 🤣
(Dana) Glad to use it and meet you both.
The main argument always is "these things bring more people into the game so it's good". More is not always better. Especially if it means losing the soul of the game. Having Marvel characters, dr who actors and other once meme-worthy IPs like Spongebob in the game feels like a bad joke, but has become a bitter and sad reality. Meanwhile beloved magic-characters become jokes, wearing cowboy costumes, traveling into space or driving race cars. The game has become so superficial and faded, it's a pain to watch. At least we got some new games in the last few years, like Flesh and Blood, Sorcery and other stuff, which hopefully can estabilish and give those players, who are sick of this nonsense, a new home.
One could say by being a niche hobby it actually serviced a specific group of people better than by becoming a shallow knock-off product that may serve a far greater number of people, but will definitely not have any people even closely as passionate.
A major issue with magic ip is their lack of fidelity to the characters, which leads to apathy about those characters. Take Daretti for example. The first time we see him he’s some kind of machine pope, draped in white, regal looking robes, and people loved that version. He was a super popular commander around my area, and seeing a Goblin planeswalker that wasn’t goofy was really cool. Then when we see him again he looks a lot more like Grenzo, darker and grungier, and frankly a little more generic goblin-ish. And now in his new card he looks like a chubby gearhead. Or how about Riku, a hip, clean shaven Asian character, who appeared as a grizzled white dude in thunder junction. How can anyone care about these characters if they don’t stay true to why we fell in love with them.
It’s irritating because they seem to be able to keep some consistency with the gate watch planeswalkers, but those characters are generally written so badly it’s hard to like them. It’s the characters that have less story that people tend to get attached to, because we can imprint on them without baggage, but that’s compromised if that character is totally different the next time we see them.
I think Matt’s take on “power creep in magic is inevitable” was only half right. In eternal formats it definitely is, which is why commander cannot maintain being the face of magic. Part of what made magic such an amazing game was the rotation system, where power creep was NOT inevitable. Which as a byproduct made power creep in eternal formats much slower. We’ve seen more power creep in the past 3ish years than the previous decade+ combined when you look at modern and legacy and commander because of this.
as someone who quit when type 1/2 first came out, and just recently came back into Magic solely because of Commander. You are wrong.The majority does not want to keep buying and buying cards and making new decks to compete in a format. Commander, I can not play for a year, and still play and have fun, singleton is FAR LESS likely to care about power creep.
@@Lazydino59 hmmm…I’m not so sure that commanders popularity(ie the “face of magic) has as much to do with its power, IMHO the socialness of it is what gives it it’s popularity;it’s the fact that it’s multiplayer and the cost is “relatively” low(needing only one of each to create something that can hang with most other decks, not needing multiple copies of some really powerful or expensive card) that gives it its appeal. I think it has a lot of appeal because as it’s generally a four player game, the average wi rate is really low and that protects a lot of egos.
@ I don’t disagree with any of what you said, what I meant by “the face of magic” was moreso that it is the main focus of WOTC’s card design. A very close equivalent would be yugioh and Modern, where power creep is a necessary function to sell product. If you’ve seen the power creep in the past 5 years it was more than the previous 20 (having played this entire period I’ve experienced it first hand). Power spike used to be transient due to rotation but now it is permanent since there is no “safety valve” other than the banlist
@ ahh I see, apologies for misunderstanding.
My biggest complaint and the UB product is that not a single crossover has been due to designers thinking an IP are worth designing magic cards for, it's been an ad for a new tv show or content release in said IP every..... Single..... Time.....
How was i ever supposed to think that a UB release was for magic when its always been tied with a new release in the other IP.
"You mean its always been an ad?"
"Always has been" 🔫
🤦 y'all kept referencing "UB" and I was thinking "what's with all the Dimir shade being thrown??"
I mean if people were hating on Azorius it would make sense.
@@EDHRECastThose UWU decks...
A really good anaolgy to the UB conversation is the american football team the Chargers.
When the team moved from San Diego to Los Angeles, fans asked why the team moved from one city to another. The team's management responded with "40% of ourfan base is in Los Angeles." To which San Diegans said "what about the 60% that already exists here." UB is the exact same thing. Why chase a minority of fringe fans if it could alienate the core fan base.
Our guess is they think they gain more fans than they alienate. We'll see in the coming years if that's true.
One thing I want to get off my chest thet ive only just realized:
Im about 20 minutes into the video. Usually, I absolutely adore all of the content you all at EDHRECast put Out, and I thank you for making this video! On the other hand, the longer I watch, the more I just get this deep sadness and it makes me want to quit watching this episode. I want to not look at or even think about Magic because it's just been one thing after another after another for the past like, 3 months.
I'm taking out every UB card I can out of my decks.... the last 2 I truly don't want to remove are actually lands, Rivendel and Minas Tirith (the extended art on those look normal for MTG and they are very good...) Besides those Im trying to eliminate UB from what I play. I'm voting with my wallet, just playing Universes Within Pre Release events and buying singles/boxes from those sets. Half of MTG is out of my menu, and Lorwyn set being pushed to 2026? I'm a faerie player..... it felt like a punch to the gut for me 🧚u.u
UUB will be a Barbie sequel tie-in: Get ready for Boros KENergy decks
I have had KENough of this
Okay, i know this is a joke, and i wouldn't be too excited about a UB Barbie either, but i absolutely would play that boros KENergy deck! :D
i don't know about everyone else, but ever since the announcement that WoTC is going all in for UB and it coming to standard and becoming virtually inescapable completely and the fact that the last 4 or 5 standard sets have been a complete miss, killed any interest i have for magic in general. i haven't bothered to check the foundations spoilers because i'm sorta checked out.
one point i have to make, dana is absolutely wrong. magic thrived just well for 25 years before UB. some of us saw the writing on the wall with the walking dead UB and protested, you went along and here we are. and if WoTC didn't get punished for the magic 30 fiasco, they can do pretty much anything they want wether you like it or not.
You’re not alone
It's the same business model as Hollywood has taken with the movie industry.
When joey asked about concerns for the future, I just wanna point everyone back to episode 100(I believe) with Sheldon Mennery. When he was asked, he said competitive play/tournaments is what he fears, and I feel like that needs to be discussed more. When people are incentivized to put more skin in the game, that’s what causes prices and power to be crept up, hence exacerbating a lot of the other issues mentioned and increasing the feel-bads of bans like those recently.
We don't think he was wrong with that concern necessarily, we're just not sure it's shaping up to be a large-scale problem.
@EDHRECast I guess that’s said, my logic was tournaments leads to more emphasis on cedh, which like all tournaments, drive up prices on powerful cards, which then encourages wizards to print powerful cards, and leads to feel-bads feelings even worse when those bans come with high price tags attached.
Btw, thanks for responding, I appreciate the interactions. :)
I can definitely concur with competitive play being what would more properly tarnish the format. It always takes me aback when I see a comment that's like "It's hard to have a Rule 0 conversation when you've all payed to enter an event for prizes" and it's like why are you paying to play the game! Just...play it! And I know why, it's 'cause of those sweet sweet prizes or store credit or what have you, but those incentives are exactly what leads to the competitive mindset, 'cause you rationalize that the investment can pay itself off, or at least offset itself. Meanwhile when you don't play in a tournament, you get the same prize whether you win or lose: Another game of Magic.
@ something the Professor said resonated with me, the gist of it being of it being that what made the bans feel extra bad was the high price tag attached to it. Banning jeweled lotus or dockside would feel bad regardless, but it would hurt less if those cards were going for $20-30 instead of $70 to $90. In all fairness, the context he was referring to was a lack of reprints, but I think it can be expanded to include anything that would drive up the value of a card, and one thing that raises the value of a card is its tournament-worthiness. A card can’t have tournament-worthiness if there’s no tournaments to be had.
UB isn't just bringing in new players, It's mainly bringing in tourists. I've liked all of the properties that the major UB sets have been in (except AC but even then I played the first 3 or 4 of them) but now I dread the fact that FF and Spiderman are going to take over standard. As someone who likes UB I dont want to see it in standard and ESPECIALLY pioneer. I'd love more 40k because they were accurate with the lore and characters while LotR which is something I grew up loving was a set I was completely turned off of.
Fortnite: The Gathering
I do wish that WotC could have successfully pulled off getting the Magic IP into other things and mediums. A show like Arcane or a movie. Video games like Warhammer Darktide and Space Marine, movies like D&D Honor Among Thieves. That could have been really cool to bring more people into the Magic universe and it keep its fantasy roots. Maybe there is still hope that will happen.
Can’t say they didn’t try. There was the MtG comics and wasn’t there supposed to be a show too? I remember seeing an announcement a few years back but never saw updates
@@GioEs22the show was announced pre wots and has been in development hell. But it is still happening supposedly. As for the comics the problem is aren't they an entirely seperate timeline.
Eventually you'll get an equivalent to the Minecraft movies. Mark my words
(Dana) My personal guess is that becomes less and less likely the more watered down the non-UB Magic universe becomes as a concept.
You all don't remember the Magic video game from a couple years back that got into open Beta and basically tanked within the quarter?
Said this years ago when the Warhammer decks came out and everyone complained the quality of the deck make up and design. Said we were going to loose the soul entirely one day and that is soon approaching.
It's already gone, amigo. It's been gone for years. MtG is just a skinsuit worn by a corporation now.
In reference to the conversation about gatekeeping, is it also not gatekeeping to say that I don't want to play against a Tergrid deck because I'm not looking forward to that style of game? I feel this is the same for people who really don't want to play against Optimus Prime or Patrick Starfish. That's not really the kind of Magic game that I signed up for. How do we reconcile saying I can opt out of games with Armageddon but also call it gatekeeping if I don't want to play against Wolverine?
You don't understand! These other guys coming in with their Squidward and Homer Simpson Decks are _passionate_ about their love for their franchises! Who are you, a person who is merely passionate about the stupid mtg IP, to stop them from playing with you? Whatever they say is entirely legitimate, your opinion about this however doesn't matter!
@@AdamKeeton because one is totally reasonable and one is you being a petulant child. Saying you don't wanna play against mld is honestly pretty normal, but not wanting to play against your friends spongebob deck? Grow up
@@spudster8887 Who decides what is childish or not? By what measure are we using to determine what is childish? For example, observing two children argue on the playground, we notice that the argument often shift away from the main message an devolves into personal attacks--primaily through the use of name-calling: "You're dumb!" "Oh yeah?! Well you're stupid!" When an argument ventures away from substance into personal attacks, that is empirically childish. When you're ready to engage in the discussion and offer evidence and reasoning other than opinion and subjectivity to the discussion, I welcome your take. However until then, telling someone to "grow up" is the definition of a personal attack, implying that the defender is immature and childish when in fact the opposite is true in this case.
@AdamKeeton but you do need to grow up, if a piece of cardboard with spongebob on it bothers you so much, you ban it from your games. Especially when it's a completely valid game piece.
There is a massive difference between a personal ban because it's unfun and one made because you dislike the direction the game has taken. By your logic, I should be able to ban midnight hunt and crimson vow from my games, because those sets were shit and I dislike them both. If you pulled that with me, I would literally just declare any commander you built to be something I don't like, so I shouldn't have to play against it. Where do you draw the line? Because in my view, that's what you're opening yourself up to.
@spudster8887 I believe you're missing my argument: I'm saying that we're calling it a "pregame discussion" to shadow ban cards like Stasis or Armageddon or even Commanders like Tergrid or archetypes like mono blue control or even "combo", but it's considered gatekeeping to say I don't want to play against cards that I personally don't like to play against across the table from me. Fun is subjective. I'm a hard core blue control mage and don't find it fair that we can judge one person's play style critically and harshly and be told to accept and that we're the problem when we speak up and don't want to play against something, we're told we're wrong
In terms of the power creep in commanders being printed now, ive been having a lot of fun building older cards that have more support now. My latest creation was revisiting my Molimo-Maro Sorcerer deck. The goal is the be the biggest, meanest, and greenest one punch commander possible. Cards like Traverse The Outlands help him go nuts! I really enjoy building decks where the commander doesnt solve every part of the equation though. Less powerful commanders make you less of a threat and more enjoyable for me to play at least
(Dana) I'm in full agreement re: how much more fun it is to build an older commander that doesn't top a solved deck. It is however significantly less fun playing one of those decks into a new commander that makes you feel like you're starting at 12 life with two cards in hand.
I believe this power creep approach is to force Commander players to rotate their decks. Similar to Yu-Gi-Oh.
I love Marvel, I love Final Fantasy but I couldn't be sadder than to know that half of my favorite game will be UB stuff and the other half we will get cowboy hats and fedorars..,
Sadly I am being commodified here too, we get to "pay" for a product that is advertising for another IP
I don't know what else to say. somebody there is really disconnected with us and that makes me really worried for the future of the game I love.
It's too much product and we said so many times but we are not listened to.
we cant do anything?
u can: 1. dont buy the product. 2. u can make no content about the product or just less. 3. u can inform people and the company about ur opinion.
there is so much u CAN do, but at what cost. thats for u guys decide.
Exactly. Vote with your wallet guys and who knows, we might be able to steer this ship around
That's my plan. I've never bought product from a UB set and I'm certainly not going to start now. Why give it the light of day if it's not what I care for? Idgaf how powerful or mechanically interesting the cards are... that's not how I play magic
I'm more likely going to buy the Final Fantasy Card game honestly. The mechanics look great!
After the announcement 2 of my playgroups banned UB. And many of those players have UB decks or at least UB cards in them, me included. It was just the best step to take, you cant draw a line and say "oh LOTR is still on flavor but Dr Who isnt"
We just banned UB, seems like most of the people I play with don't want to equip Darth Vader with a Hoverboard in two years.
I was in that game that Dana was able to drop all the amphibian downpours! That was a fun game Dana and I remember I was able to just barely pull it off with my Mono red Calamity shenanigans!
(Dana) It was a great game!
I’ve never been closer to possibly getting out of the game. I strongly dislike universes beyond.
(Dana) I like the game too much to let it force me out, but I understand how not everyone feels that way.
I’m going to offer a different POV on this coming from a similar (yet still very different) area of the gaming space - gacha games. Gacha games are a lot closer to something like Magic Arena where players will use free or paid in game currency to roll for characters, weapons or whatever the game’s progression system is based off of so it is extremely similar to cracking packs. Some games will also have a PVP system but balance gets tricky because people that pay more money tend to have stronger characters.
Gacha games are constantly collaborating all the time with either other Anime or other games - some much more than others. At the end of the day though every gacha game still has and retains it’s core identity because it’s the core gameplay that players will stay for. Collaborations drive in a ton of new players but a lot of them will pick up and drop the game fast. These companies ultimately just need to convert a certain percentage of new players into Whales and they’ve made they’ve money back + more.
I imagine Magic will end up going in a direction similar to Puzzles and Dragons or Fortnite where we’ll get a ton of different collaborations from basically any IP. I’m optimistic that this will bring in tons of new players to Magic which is something I’ve always wanted.
Finally I just wanted to note that at least for myself Magic was always about the gameplay above anything else. There’s a reason why I quit both Pokemon and Yugioh tcgs. While I preferred the art of both their gameplay was just not it for me. Magic has and still does offer the best gameplay of any card game out there and I firmly stand behind that. This doesn’t completely excuse them ignoring their own world building but as long as the gameplay remains fun I’ll keep playing it.
Foundations will probably end up being my favorite set this year, mainly because it feels like the Magic I fell in love with. It also feels somehow nostalgic, even in its freshness, even as the paint dries, because it signals to what Magic used to be. Because it shines like a newfound nugget in a sieve, nestled radiant among the gray stones. Because it appears so mismatched in the world that has begun to unravel before us.
We just recorded an episode on our favorite set of the year, and SPOILER ALERT it's possible Foundations gets some love.
To gauge the power level of my decks, ive been asking after games for my opponents to give me a number, and over time ive gotten a better understanding of where my decks power level are.
Before games i usually ask about winning through combat or combos, how many tutors, and what turn does a deck win on.
If my opponents are going for combat or combo, so will I. I keep my tutors to archetype specific, including fetches i keep on color. And i know the range of sol ring starts that can bring a deck to winning on turn six, but on average on turn ten.
On an aside, just want to commend the EDHRec cast on their vast vocabulary. I learn new words every time i watch. :-)
Thanks for the compliment! We've always felt our vocabulary was perfectly cromulent.
I appreciate the discussion about power creep finally. That was my first concern when the banlists hit a while back moreso than the actual bans themselves
It's kind of interesting to look at the power level of the average deck, and then also the power level of the average precon. That's the bar to clear and the barrier to entry. If you want to address issues of power level mismatch across the entire player base, or the issues of pubstomping/sore losing, or the constant back and forth discussion about the utility and misallocation of rule zero, you would be naive not to address that barrier to entry and average power level increasing consistently.
Touting that we need to address the need to support more casual, goof around games are in direct conflict with the metagame getting more powerful.
I would also argue commanders being thier own toolbox and payoff robs some of the creativity and ingenuity of deck building. The fun of deckbuilding was in the creation of something functional out of cards you wouldnt expect to synergize. Commanders themselves do that all in a single card now. Instead the deck building focus is the optimization of a commander or build. By the numbers the most optimal versions of a deck will always surface ensuring more homogeneous decks and play patterns. Commander, paradoxically, gets competitive in this casual format and no one agrees on how to handle it.
Let it happen. Why are we playing a game to not win? Why is this a thing? The participation trophy kids want the same experience as the diehards and deck building pro's. Sorry, it shouldn't be like that.
@steveolie985 yeah I'm not here to say that power creep itself is bad. I'm here to say the way it's running is contributing to the rampant issues we are seeing today and I'm trying to point out that we as a community are wholly uncritical of that fact. Wizards power creeps with a priority to make money, not to balance a game. It largely contributes to the unhealthy play environment we are always talking about.
We welcome the WWE Superstars to Magic: the Gathering!
(Dana) You couldn't keep me from building a Kurt Angle deck with a steel chair.
Nobody mentions rule changes that ALSO happened with foundations with combat assignment, while it doesn't impact much. The matter that it was announced so low-key, i think WotC should communicate these changes differently. Not everyone is aware of all the drama and updates going on. Especially it's spoiler season after spoiler season...
I have nothing against UB themselves. I am a newbie to Magic (by some standards), since I came around Midnight Hunt dropped. I didn't get to experience the original IP's timeline develop at it's peak, but I still got into the game. I just hope that in those 50% of original IP we'll get to see not only returns to classic (although I am hyped for Lorwyn, since I heard it was dope), but also planes we only got to see in lore or even completely new. Culture themed sets like MKM, OTJ and Duskmourn were decent, but I want to see more of Bloomburrows of the world - that one slapped with card design and mechanics.
One thing a lot of people overlook is licencing issues later on. For example, it's perfectly plausible that something like Final Fantasy isn't allowed on Arena anymore after a few years because the agreement has run out or Square has had a change of mind.
It's pretty much happened on MTGO where the Warhammer cards are not allowed in the Vintage cube.
Joey, you sir speak eloquently. Thank you
Thank you guys for finally making me felt heard. I feel a lot of the discurs around this has rapidly devolved into people splitting of into haters and fans. Your discussion was the first I watched that didn't feel disingenuous but toom all the concerns seriously. Thank you guys, really.
I'm very glad to see some recognition with the trend of "Do your thing: Do it again", or it's cousin "Do your thing: Draw a card" that plagues a lot of modern commander designs. There's definitely a building pressure of sorts because such commanders basically make every card worth double, either on board or due to cantriping, so to not play one you're basically playing with half as many resources as everyone else. Not every, or even most, commanders fall into that mold, luckily, but they do often take the top spot in what folks want to build, or are the designs for more niche strategies you hope to be neat but it's like "Finally, a trilobite commander that cares about trilobites! Aaaand the synergy is drawing cards."
Though besides that, I don't think self-fueling commanders are otherwise egregious, at least generally speaking, if only to be considerate to limited concerns where you might only get one or two other goblins, so it's fine for the mythic goblin to make goblins and also do something when goblins die because otherwise it'd be a dead card if it just had the death ability.
On the plus side, I do think they still make a fair few commanders for the thinkers among us. They're often at the uncommon level, though even at rare or even mythic sometimes they exist. But even out of 20 legends a set, the top 5 are the more double-card value designs and have as many decks as the other 15 put together, you're not gonna be seeing many of those other ones.
All three of my favorite hosts! Glad the stars finally align. I know you guys said scheduling has been awful this year.
Commie Commander here,
I think one of the really good things you guys struck on was how wizards of the Coast Prince powerful stuff and then leaves it up to the players to have to deal with.
Now if we lived in a world where all the players would wise up and proxy all of their cards or at least proxy all of the cards outside of their budget so everybody would be on the same playing field as far as card accessibility and then we could have those discussions about hey this is the kind of game I want we might get somewhere.
But that's not realistic. Some people they might have access to one or two or 52 different decks to choose from so they can pivot whenever they want.
Some people just might not be able to swing more than one deck at best and if they commit to it and we have a community that still hasn't fully embraced proxies it's going to create not a great feel if the answer is well you just don't have to play against that person.
So that part right there I don't agree with the command zone. However in that same video they also pointed out that when they were talking about Commander such as braids if you know you're playing against braids you know what to expect and you know how to deal with it. (Besides the fact that braids is laughably outclassed so hard now).
And what I fear the future of commander is If we as a community do not push back against wizards of the Coast and the commander format panel and we allow only them to gauge or decide what the power bracket figures are going to be it's going to keep getting worse that divide is going to keep happening.
Unrelated to this post I am starting a project of getting something spun up to give the community the tools to be able to offer their own input on what they feel each cards power bracket is.
Outside of the influence of the commander format panel and wizards of the Coast. Because I don't exactly trust everybody on the commander format panel to have the game's best interest and not to have any conflict of interest with the financial side that they choose to put in to their cards.
And I definitely don't trust wizard of the Coast who have absolutely a profit motive hiding behind the corners with how they decide which cards are which power given the fact that they can artificially make any of those cards more scarce when they want.
"Excuse me waiter there seems to be cars in the fantasy I just ordered, I am afraid this is the lore breaking thing I did not come here for?!?"
I know the whole discussion about commander design has felt almost closed and solved by now, but it's really worth continuing to hammer home how much of a problem this is if left unchecked. Voja may feel like old hat but the text on the card hasn't changed and it's still emblematic of the type of power creep WotC is choosing to introduce into the format. The situation of spiralling expectations from WotC on card design and then consequently by players on WotC is something that might be too late to stop, but I hope that's not the case. I don't want Commander to become even more like Singleton Legacy.
Also, I've never attended a MagicCon because Europe, but it sounds like the kind of person who goes to a con is already much more invested in making sure the games go smoothly, so I'm really glad you guys had no speed bumps there! Anecdotally though just yesterday in a local cEDH chat I saw someone ask if it's ok to proxy a cEDH deck against a pod of kitchen table players using precons, so the problems are still very much out there...
(Dana) For me the biggest threat to the version of the game I love is the preponderance of cmdrs that force you to play something similar or lose.
See wotc is stuck in a tough place with UB because the average magic player loves ub and it gets more people into the game and they sell really well but the established most invested players like the magic for magic’s aesthetic and a lot of them would prefer the sanctity of the game as strictly high fantasy aesthetic
Magic hasn't been strictly high fantasy since at least 1994 (Antiquities) though.
I forget where I heard but apparently 2/3 of players have been playing less than 10 years, which means most players “grew up” in the UB era, and there has been a clear exodus of long-time players
Yeah, they're gambling they'll gain more players than they lose. We'll see if it pans out.
I gotta thank Joey for the potential "gatekeeping" feeling that videos and conversations can lean towards. Some people may not like the fact that Spongebob is gonna be across the table from them, but they can still appreciate the joy that the player is experiencing. And if they REALLY don't like it, they can always ask if the Spongebob player can play something else
Im definitely part of the "problem" ive never pretended magics story was any good and have always wondered since i found magic in 94 how my favorite characters from other properties would look and work in the mtg framework. Finally getting magic cards with quality lore connected to it thanks to UB has gotten me more excited for new sets, aetherdrift also has me excited as a motorcycle enthusiast
Similar to the “simic, then simic again” problem, is the rube goldberg problem of an abundance of triggered abilities without costs, and doublers / n+1 effects.
We saw a ton of these in Foundations and I expect many more decks to have ooops i combo’d out with 2-3 value pieces moments.
I think interpretation of data is important. Maro mentioned that the UB decision stemmed from the metrics that were showing that UB is incredibly popular, but I think it's easy for them to mistakes based on that data. In this case, assuming that UB being popular means it should come to every format.
Anything: The Gathering
I hope we get Car Talk universes beyond with aetherdrift.
Click and Clack partner pair.
11:50 I think Joey is spot on with the concern here. They got an unexpectedly positive reaction to MSRP returning, and an unexpectedly negative one to the UB announcement. I don't know where they're getting their data from (just sales?) or maybe that's just because the audience at a MagicCon is going to be more enfranchised players who are not looking for this.
Why do we always have to be biggering and biggering. Growth year over year is. Ugh. Exhausting.
Capitalism my friend. Capitalism.
@EDHRECast indeed. We should keep it out of TCGs and Healthcare!
What will the new player retention rate be once the next UB isn't what drew them in?
I guess we'll find out. We're curious as well.
I just finished playing Foundations and it feels SO bittersweet because I feel this is the last year I will be playing magic at the rate I was doing. I think nothing calls out to me except Edge of Eternities and the Tarkir set next year.
That’s also a BIG problem with UB: Mtg sets call out to mtg players, UB sets calls to a very specific group of magic players that ALSO love another pop culture IP and/or people that are fans of the IP that would finally give Magic a try thanks to that set. It feels so finicky.
38:01 Dana's comment here is easily my biggest ongoing concern about how WOTC has been designing for Commander...
My golden rule for deckbuilding for the last 10+ years has been to build decks in such a way that it is possible for everyone to have a good game experience. And the easiest way to break that rule is to have a commander (Kaalia is still my go-to example) which makes it impossible for everyone at the table to play the game and have a good time: either the Kaalia player doesn't get to play with their commander, or nobody else gets to play the game, either way someone isn't getting a good game experience.
It seems like these days there are more Kaalias than ever, which also normalises playing those kinds of kill on sight commanders, and even causes players to learn to always kill commanders as an easy threat assessment heuristic...
I would unironically love a Bob Villa commander deck if they could pull it off. My dad always had This Old House on in the background when I was a kid.
It's kinda wild how Magic is in this eternal state of controversy and "it's so over" "magic is dead" while Pokemon hits homerun after slam dunk after hattrick (excluding the video games). As a magic guy it's bittersweet how much I'm enjoying the new Pokémon TCG game and reflecting on how as much as they cheese certain things they never deviated from the strength of their own story and characters.
The only thing I’d like to say regarding the frog slowly boiling is, people immediately freaked out about the walking dead secret lair printing new cards. So it’s not that the water has been slowly boiling, it’s that wizards/hasbro had been gaslighting players into thinking they are wrong about how hot the water is. I started playing at modern horizons three after not playing for fifteen years. So this is all stuff I’ve heard not experienced. But I think the larger issue is wizards keeps lying/changing their promises. Originally ub wouldn’t be in standard and after the back lash they promised in universes versions. Now both of those things are not true. So what are we supposed to do when we keep getting lied to
i def want an alaskan bull worm in the spongebob set lol with that said, im happy with these new sets. It gives the writers time to really take the time to continue the magic lore in a great way and not rush it and make the story like the last two season of game of throne. you cant rush creativity sometimes.
Like Dana, I'm at the point of acceptance, which for me means accepting that I won't be purchasing at least 50% of the magic sets going forward. Unfortunately, I also agree with Dana that a lot of the in-universe sets we're getting aren't even in the magic universe (wild west, etc.).
I do think how much people are going crazy that SpongeBob’s getting a Secret Lair when things like Fortnite and My Little Pony both got ones a good while back and I’m not seeing anybody reference them when talking about it.
Also, in terms of main sets feeling like non-main sets, Ikoria was literally just a Kaiju set.
I've always been totally fine with Secret Lair. In fact, I quite like them. It's a way for other artists to stretch their legs and show off their unique style. It's also a way to include these more whacky IPs that doesn't feel as intrusive as Universe Beyond. Functionally, they're just alters. So Spongebob as a Secret Lair? Sure. It's weird, but sure. If it becomes a UB set? *THAT* is where I have problems. Thankfully we aren't there yet.
Also thank you so much for using my submission! I was actually a bit bummed when I realized Compost was a non-bo because dang it would have been such good card draw xD.
I mean, we are there.
great card for both darryl and rendmaw instead of compost, pygmy kavu.
Nice suggestions Demo.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t WotC say once upon a time that all of the UB stuff would eventually get reprinted into MTG appropriate flavorings? Isn’t that what happened with the Stranger Things stuff? Eleven(I think, I don’t watch the show) was made into Cecily, Haunted Mage? If that’s the case, I think it’s about time WotC either made good on that, or remind the player base that they have that intention.
I agree with power creep issue.. I have to as a builder run more toolbox removal or answers to things.. it makes me sidetrack from doing the thing
In my mind, I read this situation as WOTC/Hasbro trying to cut corners. At the pace they are releasing product, it's very plausible that they are trying to create some space for them to create those unique magic IP sets and just using the UB sets as the buffer in between. Obviously there's a profit incentive that is likely the primary driving force, but the creative leeway it gives the dev team could also be a factor at play here.
Yeah it's probably a combo of all those things.
magic is profitable without UB. magic is popular without UB. UB is just to pad hasbro's pockets with the short term profit derived from speculators and fans of other IPs who will not stick around.
Unfortunately from a corporate perspective profitable isn't enough. They want it to be profitable + 10%, each and every year.
I guess a small positive, if you don't appreciate the Universe Beyond is that you can avoid these alternative sets and hence Wallet Fatigue. It's a small positive 😅
some people say to just ignore UB cards when building decks, but for more niche themes like my cast from exile Loot deck, it’s pretty much reliant on at least 3, if not 4 or 5 UB cards to have any amount of viable payoffs to casting from exile. It means that if I want my deck to do it’s thing, it has to use UB cards when, if they just printed regular magic cards instead, I might get to use cards from the universe I love so much instead. Luckily the cards aren’t too egregious, flaming trex feeling most out of place and me cutting Iraxa because she felt like a step way too far outside of magic, but it’s a shame anyway
Why do people specifically hate acrobatic cheerleader? The professor says he hates it in one of his videos but I haven't been able to find out why. They show it in this video too at 15:03.
The only card I hope is very playable in the Spongebob set, IF they make it, is the Krabby Patty. Only to make a Horadric Hamburger alter to rep Diablo instead. Love yall's work!!
One take I haven't seen yet is about set construction. With stuff like Capenna and Lorwyn, you need all the small lore tidbits on the cards, the minor players, the side characters and dirt and grass and brick and mortar - the draft chaff that you still need, but play no role in the plot - alongside the major players. In a UB set, EVERYTHING is a reference. It gets no arc, no mood setup. Nothing new to explore or to excite, no connections to seek and make the set feel alive. Just 'oh hey I know this thing'. Just collectible intertextuality.
Rather than being upset/annoyed/mad about where magic is or where it's headed i just built a cube. I can't recommend it highly enough and it's my go-to advice for anyone that wants to steer clear of Universes Beyond stuff. (Also, to anyone thinking about making their first cube, it's easier to start with a set cube - and Foundations looks like a pretty good choice)
I think where Bloomburrow succeeded while the others of 2024 felt like cheap skins was, it was still a fantasy & folk legend set, just in a dimension where the characters had fur & feathers. Everything else was disparate genre over familiar characters. (And maybe Duskmourn kinda worked, despite its heavy-handedness, because horror is also in MTG's DNA.)
Lack of card sale availability and the general bitterness of the" normal" players (with lack of pool, increasing frustration) will no doubt increase Proxies.
I do honestly want to say cowboy magic is partly what sold me to play magic 😅
I've been kicked out of games and insulted for enjoying UB. I actually really enjoy the IPs that WotC are working with, and I have had to stop going to the game store to play Friday Night Magic because I get crap every time I try to play some of my favorite decks that I took a lot of time and money to build. It's effectively made it so I can only play with my friends that live almost an hour away or just play against myself.
17:49 Kind funny Dana mentions this old house and bob vila but editor couldn't bother to find an image of this old house with bob vila
18:54 The thing i really think that a lot of people here miss with the change from 4 to 6, is that those sets arent just coming out of nowhere, those are the commander legends, conspiracy, masters slots etc. Theyre just being changed to standard legal. So they werent really designing 6 new worlds under 6 sets, 2 of 4 sets being UB would have been less than 50% not just 50% with fewer sets total, etc.
We are losing the non standard experimental expressions of magic to more UB advertising slop, and i just cant see it working long term, especially for standard. It's very different to be a fan of say final fantasy and get into commander where you can build a FF theme deck, or its ff and most of the rest are magic IP. Are you going to be excited to play standard where your Sephiroth deck needs to play with spiderman
Good point.
Yeah, I'm a pretty new magic player who was, quite honestly, only brought to magic because they did a Doctor Who set.I love the game now, but that was what got me in the door after years on the sidelines. I love those cards! I've made half a dozen doctor who commander decks! I love Fallout and Final Fantasy too!
And yet... Universes Beyond taking up space in main sets really feels bad, especially as a fan of these UB cards. To think that the other IPs that I hold so close are now going to causes for frustration for the magic players who have actually carried this game for year just feels so bad. because these should be aspects of Casual magic, not something that everyone has to engage with to be lovers of this game.
We're thrilled it's brought you on board and you love it. That's great to hear.
I play the premodern format exclusively on order to escape WOTC’s terrible power creep, universes beyond, and new set cadences. I love premodern!
I also love the game more than I hate UB. The way I see it is next year I can focus on tuning the decks I have with singles here and there, and give my wallet a breather 😅
26:30 i'd honestly just play amphibian downpour at that point, plus it hits multiple targets. Like i can't imagine making room for both.
(Dana) I've got Amphibian Downpour, Tamiyo's Compleation, Utter Insignificance and Imprisoned in the Moon all in one deck.
@EDHRECast I assume it's your blue devotion deck or Silumgar. It absolutely makes sense in that deck, but I have to clarify I can't see making the cut in most decks that want that type of effect in general.
These announcements have really already changed my relationship with magic. Ive been playing for most of the last 23 years and im pretty heavily invested, but I chose magic specifically because of it's world, because it wasnt a crossover game like others on the shelves. A little bit of UB was fine, reskins were great, but the volume its increasing too so rapidly is just fundamentally changing what the game is. Yes it also doesnt help how tropey recent sets have been, how bad the finale of the Phyrexia arc was, etc. I had a lot of issues with Karlov manor and Thunder junction, but i still gave them a try, i probably would have done the same with Aetherdrift, but now im just not going to bother.
Since the announcements i have taken apart my recently built standard deck, i have started watching less magic content and unsubscribed from several channels(and likely more by the time the year is out), unfollowed the reddit and am about to delete my account there now that the foundations spoiler season is done. I've only had the motivation to make it to one magic event since, and that only because id already paid for entry. Next year will be the first year that i will skip a prerelease by choice(rather than work or other commitments) since i came back from my break with Scars of Mirrodin and it feels awful.
(Dana) Yeah for me personally the fact that the non-UB sets feel so much like UB sets doesn't help at all.
Same here. My deck cap is 2 decks (EDH only) and I’ve sold the majority of my collection. Trying out other games like One Piece and Flash and Blood
Can't wait to make that Bob Village deck Dana talked about 😂
I don’t usually care too much if I don’t vibe with most of the sets each year as long as I really like one or two I’m more than happy. I didn’t like outlaws or Karlov manor very much and didn’t really buy a lot of lord of the rings but I did like duskmorn enough to throw some money at. With how many sets are releasing I can’t afford to go all in every set and just flat out skip most sets and buy a few singles I need for a deck. Next year I really only plan on going in on final fantasy so far and I think it’s okay to only pick up boxes from a set or two every year. I definitely wish they would slow down on the UB sets (and honestly the amount of sets each year in general) but I get why people get excited when one of their favorite IPs gets a set. My roommate went all in on lord of the rings and someone who’s just starting out in our play group is excited for the marvel stuff. Neither are really my jam but I’m happy they’re excited about a set
Sounds like you found a pretty healthy way to engage with the game. If that works for you, outstanding.
@ it honestly has been nice not feeling like I have to buy every set and letting myself splurge on the sets I do enjoy
If WotC wants new content that feels fresh to avoid reprinting new "bland" sets in existing IP, then I really think that M:tG should explore Arabian Nights, Mirage/Visions, and Three Kingdoms more. Even a new version of Homelands could be cool. I'd also suggest that there is room for a sets based in North American Native American, Russian, South/Central African, and/or South East Asian culture. Finally, for future sets and/or Universes Beyond, we could pull ideas from different Western fantasy IP's like: Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, The Witcher, Earthsea, Shadow and Bone, Chronicles of Amber, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Chronicles of Narnia, Discworld, or fantasy mythology from European cultures. Basically... I want to see more "swords & sorcery" themes with new material from different cultures or IP that is within the theme instead of popular IP that seems jarring in a fantasy/mythology setting.
Or more hats!
@@EDHRECast - Or what if they went completely meta and made a cosplayer themed set?
37:00 i call them "Babysitter Commander"
Or, more precisely:
"Babysitter auto-builder Commander for braindead"
I’ve been fine with Universes Beyond when the sets are small or just precons (Fallout, Assassin’s Creed, Doctor Who) because generally the cards in the 99 are relatively accessible from a “pretend it’s not UB” perspective. My issue with full sets (which I don’t think I’ve experienced yet… I came to the game just after Lord of the Rings) is that there will be hundreds of cards that probably kick ass that will have me thinking “do I have pride and integrity?” every time I build a deck.
I dislike Marvel (mainly because of everything it stands for in the genericification of trash media fed down our throats) but out of all the Marvel I have even less like for Spiderman! So when there’s a full set, and that’s 1/6 of all the cards released in a year, it’s almost like there’s a pseudo ban list applying to me… unless I get on my knees and kiss the corporate ring.
I really like the design of that Storm legendary too… 😢
I’m definitely hypocritical because I previously felt UB stuff was fine and people were overreacting… but now it’s about to hit me personally xD
I have a feeling that the over-saturation of UB is going to have new players go "wait theres this old cool stuff" or "holy shit the old stuff rocks! give me that!" and pushes the desire for "Magic the Gathering"'s worlds, or it all implodes so hard and the game withers and Hasbro goes bankrupt
Do I like that we are getting a Spongebob or Spiderman commander? No. Do I think they are doing too much Universes Beyond stuff? Yes. Does any of this worry me about the state of the game? No.
What does worry me, mostly on a long term level, is the rules committee no longer being an independent entity. That there is nothing to attempt a check on corporate greed and short sightedness but the consumers is deeply worrisome.
remember, it's the gathering that makes the magic.
The announcements of next year's releases have turned me off from buying any mtg product ever again. If they want to sell out entirely, they can, but I see no use or sense on buying into the secondary market (I'm not going to buy any of the sets from next year anyways) based on prices for 'collectors' when I don't feel like the cards are collector items anymore. They are gamepieces, and if I wouldn't pay to replace a figurine of Monopoly rather than choose any trinket to replace it, then I don't see the reason to do anything but print all of my cards from now on.
I haven't yet decided to sell out of Magic, but to me, the universe of Magic is an essential part of why I played the game, and I'm no longer excited about Magic when it's only a game system and not a full game.