Five Critical Changes to my Cycling (from shorter cranks)
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
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After 10 + years of road cycling I have changed the crank length on my road bike, being the BMC Teammachine SLR01 with Shimano Ultegra, Quarq power, and now 165mm cranks. For years I rode on 172.5mm cranks, just because...I don't really know. However, after having an epic bike fit with Neill Stanbury it became apparent that in order for me to become better positioned on the bike, with greater aerodynamic gains, going to shorter cranks was going to be the key. So in this video I will share my experience after three months of riding on shorter cranks, as well as bring Neill's expertise into this piece. The five primary topics are: Cadence, position, balance, the new SMP seat, and speed and power.
#cycling #crank # length # change
I had a fit from Neill after Cam's first video as I wasn't very comfortable. Out of all the money I spent on bikes & bits, it has been the best bang for buck improvement for me.
How much was it! Thinking of doing the same
Awesome, thanks for sharing on the thread.
@rui teixeira was in line with everyone else, but a little extra for the in soles he provides. Don't think twice well worth the money, not only the fit but the knowledge I gained about myself, and the ongoing support. Very helpful and supportive in follow up emails and post fit check after you settle in.
@@reiniervandyk596 just a shame I only heard about him after he left Victoria.
What was the cost? Need to get some adjustments done on my S5!
Always road with 172.5 and trialed 165 length for 6 months. Noticed a considerable loss of power out of the saddle. So glad to be back to 172.5. Had considered 175 but think these are best. Think a lot of ppl are looking for an edge but best to stick with what works unless injured. Just enjoy your wheels and don’t take it too seriously.
This is really interesting. I'm not a tall rider, and went to 165mm cranks over 20 years ago. This was prompted by the fact that I was having a custom track bike made, and Manchester velodrome had specific requirements for the BB height and crank length. I then had a road bike version of the track bike made, with the same geometry and dimensions so stuck with the 165mm. I am regularly reminded that my cadence is generally higher than most people I ride with, and that I get far lower without it feeling difficult to do. So this has totally reinforced the decision I made all those years ago, and accidentally made it even less likely that I will ever get rid of those two bikes (that are still going strong #steelisreal ).
#steelisreal thank you for your story
And how tall are you just for reference? Cheers
So, it's in general a good recommendation to go with shorter cranks, if you are a person that is prone to have knee problems or in general not perfect bio mechanics, because the rotation distance is shorter and your knee doesn't move up as high and your whole leg has less chance to move in an unfavorable way? I mean, in general bike manufactures even fit an 172.5mm crank on a bike frame that is aimed at people with a height from 170cm to 175cm. I don't know why they do that.
Hi Cam I also changed to 165 crank sand it's been incredible difference. Less knee pain. Reduced pins and needles in the hand. Spinning feels much easier. I also feel a lot more comfortable on the bike seat 3mm back and height increase 6mm. My speed has moved up from average 32km to 34km. I also added a 440 bar with a 90 reach. I highly recommend this movement I'm also over 55 years old
So in summary, Neill suggest laying off the tim-tams and VB then he'll have a look to see what you really need to focus on, right? lol 😂
hahaha! Correct
I went to 165 a couple years back. Started on 172, than 170 for years, then finally switched.
Just works better for me seeing how I ride in a "very low" position.
Cam, your bike fitting videos with Neil are fantastic! I really appreciate how Neil and You explain the "why". Great stuff!
@Elijah Rowe uh. OK.
Changed crank length a long time ago. First form 172.5 then to 175 with the biggest benefits coming from the 175’s.
I’m 6’2”. The cranks sone feel uncomfortable nor do I get knee pain. It’s enable me to spin a bigger gear hence more power.
I did try 180’s once which helped me annihilate the field in a TT race.
Cranks this length can’t be used in Road Races or crits though.
Depending on height I would always opt for longer cranks - more leverage. Obviously there’s and an optimum and you’ve got to strike a balance
been on 165 (down from 170) and LOVE them! being 167cm, I feel it actually should be 160 - 162.5
Can you give an short Update (Part 2) reaction 9 months later about: " how your experiment with 165 mm has developped ?" Cam Nicholls I'm wondering and would like to know what you are riding now as a prefered crank length.
1. Are the 165 mm cranks still on your bike(s) ?
2. How did they effect your performances
3. Did they avoided / cured possible (joint) injuries.
Maybe that longer term info can help me decide wheter I will have to try shorter cranks too or not. Since I've experienced some knee & ankle joint pain while getting older, what I would like to solve.
changing from 170mm to 165mm cranks was in my mind as a solution to discomfort on the bike. I then watched your series of bikefit vlogs and decided to bite the bullet and get some 165mm cranks which ultimately ended up on my gravel bike. So now I can compare directly between my gravel bike (165mm) and my road bike (still 170mm) and I can say that the shorter crank is way better for me (please note my position on both bikes is very similar with the gravel saddle slightly higher and 'now' the same reach). My cadence has improved, there's no loss of power but the biggy is vastly improved comfort and much less muscle fatigue). So when my new road bike arrives the first thing I'll change will be to 165mm cranks.
Interesting to hear that mate, thanks for sharing on the thread.
How tall are you and inside leg length? Didn't catch it the clip if you said. I'm 5'6" with 29" inside leg, & switched down to 160mm cranks about 4 years ago and not looked back since because I derived all 5 benefits you mentioned in clip. 165 seems to be the smallest standard size with the main makes, went with Rotor for the wider range of crank lengths. Stem is Ritchey adjustable, pushed to almost max downwards, so my hands are below the top of the front wheel in the drops! Found your clip interesting and validating, so thanks for making it.
179cm
Cam, I got a set of 165 mm cranks and installed them yesterday. First ride was this morning. So much easier to spin! And I was so much more comfortable. It feels very balanced.
Awesome stuff Mike. Keep me posted on how it progresses 👍
Shorter crank set saved my knees.
This guy knows his stuff! Really opened my eyes.
I’ve notice on all your footage (and in this one too) when on the trainer that you “jump” or reposition yourself on the saddle every 20sec or so. Is this because your still a bit uncomfortable or are you constantly sliding forward on the saddle?
Hi Andrew, I was the same as Cam repositioning every 20 secs on my seat (due to HOT balls - uncomfortable position - sliding forward & back). I also one year ago switched to the same saddle recommended by Bike FitAsia (SMP Drakon). So much more comfortable on the seat and allows me to push our slightly more Watts, was a game changer especially for long rides
I noticed that as well and most TT cyclists I've watched ride on the tip of the saddle or reposition themselves constantly. And those folks have pro fitted bikes! I can't believe they are satisfied with that, but it has to be a hard nut to crack, as it is widespread.
Can imagine hundreds of people, right now, looking on their favourite bicycle website for shorter cranks.... That's what I'm about to do 😎
getting shorter cranks isnt easy i dropped from 172.5 to 155 mm; got mine from rotor
@@kblades9409 Hah! I did likewise dropping from 170's to 155mm with a Rotor Aldhu 24 crankset. Love them!!
Don't forget everyone is an experiment of 1. Each person's biomechanics are unique.
The cycling industry is so fickle and everyone is looking for that X factor as a key to improved performance. It's important to get one's position correct but just because that meant shorter cranks for one rider doesn't make it a rule of thumb for everyone.
I had a tri bike fit with Neil in Melbourne. I'm 6ft1 ex military (squatters legs) and went down to 145mm cranks. I found q factor went as narrow as was allowable. Body position ended up flat back. Rode 4:58 IM bike split on 205 watts. So comfortable. After the first week. Cranks felt normal. Torque isn't as issue as you just change gear.
I don’t agree with the big change method. Switched from 172.5 to 170 and noticed a big difference in cadence and pedal smoothness.
It'll be smoother when you switched to 165...it did for me coming from 170 crank arm.
Yep, next cranks I'm going small. I'm only 5'9 anyway so it makes sense.
I’m 5’9 too, what length did you go?
I ride for fitness, not race, and ride 135mm (BMX square taper) cranks. Can spin forever and never issues. I have a really short inseam (28in/71 cm) and this just makes sense. I know people hate advice from strangers but when I see people riding like a circus bear bouncing all over the saddle I want to say something.
The more I learn about cycling reveals the less I actually knew... one thing’s for certain, it’s definitely way more technical that it appears... bravo Cam! 🍻
CycoWarriorx the old saying you don’t know what you don’t know. cycling and life
Alex Betts definitely...
Hey Cam - thanks for all the great continent. I’m being asked to move down from 175s to 170s by my fitter. I’m wondering your height and inseam as I may go further. I’m 6’3” w 35.5” inseam. Would greatly appreciate your thoughts
Neill has been incredible for making riding enjoyable and without injury! I've seen a few times over the years.
How has climbing up steep gradient been? I can’t help but feel you will miss that kick should you need to stand up on a climb. Also on rolling hills, sometimes you stand up and put the power through just to maintain momentum and stay longer in a bigger gear. I also feel that with a shorter crank you might not be able to do just that.
She, need to bring that into the chat. Haven't been doing much climbing to date
Aashiq, I have 165mm cranks and can tell you that it's not a problem on rolling hills, just selected the right gear to optimise your cadence. However, on gradients of 20% or more, even with compact gears, your cadence would be below 60 rpm so the extra 6% torque of 175 cranks vs 165 might be helpful. Having said that it's cheaper to change the cassette and derailleur rather than the crankset if you are planning very steep climbs. Hope this helps.
I reckon the SMP looks fantastic, and everyone in-the-know knows they're brilliant saddles.
agreed
I dare not sit on one for fear of liking it 😀
those saddles are dope 👌
I believe 100% everything that’s been said about the way it’s worked for Cam and have heard the positive opinions of his viewers. More power to you (pun intended). But that’s why my heart goes out to you, as well, because let’s face it mate, that saddle, well she’s a right minger isn’t she?!
@@kdiggitydog7696 I'll take being comfortable on an 'ugly' saddle over being in agony on a 'good-looking' saddle ANY DAY. :)
I started on the Well model, moved to a Drakon, then found the sweet spot with lite 209. I'm 100kg+ and come from a line of rugby players, so lite 209 is the best for me.
How about climbing in higher gradient? I heard longer cranks work better in that instance, since you have a longer lever.
I agree medically. Here's my take on crank length (let's face it, some of are older): ruclips.net/video/meAW3lMQx2E/видео.html
Have to add, for the cadence to increase, gear that your using also has to change, my experience was more the other way round ?In that spun a smaller gear, so is that not how it works?
When I use to use 170mm cranks I would end up dead after 100km, with the shorter cranks I can pedal 320km for the same energy I would use before
Thank you for the video! Please tell us more about hip impingement and how you are managing it. I think lots of cyclists have this issue and there's not enough content/awareness on the topic.
Have watched less then a minute and 165cm crank is the track crank length. You should be fine, in my view.!!
For me, it's all about feel. I got fairly long legs and with anything shorter than 175, I simply feel restricted in my leg movement. I can definitely feel the difference between 175 on my road bikes and 170 on my city commuter. I have considerably more torque but I do spin slower. Maybe a shorter crank helps in getting more aero. But I think the most important factor over a 3hr + ride is actually comfort and perceived effort for a given wattage. At least for me. And achieving that might look different depending on your build. For me, longer cranks just work better. Haven't ever tried 165s, though. I'd be tempted to give it a shot.
I’ve just gotten into cycling a few months ago and I’m still not sure what I consider comfortable and not. May I ask how tall you are? Because I am 6’3” and do not know how long my cranks should be when it’s time to get a newer bike. (I’m currently on a 27 year old steel frame)
@@HungrySharkMaster Your height alone doesn't really tell the full story. My best riding buddy and me we're both riding the exact same size Ridley frame. We're more or less the same height by a few cm, but we're completely opposite builds. He's got a long torso but short legs. He feels best on 170 cranks, his saddle is obviously not even close as high up as mine. He also prefers a shorter stem. I got 175 cranks (went up from 172.5), a much higher saddle, more setback and a 120 stem. I got a short torso but very long arms and super long legs.
@@HungrySharkMaster Oh, and to answer your question: I'm exactly 6'3" just like you.
@@sebastianm2381 Thank you, I assumed that height isn't everything as certain people have different torso and leg lengths, but I thought height would kind of give me a ballpark to work with. My legs are a lot longer and my torso is a bit smaller than most people of my height so I think the longer cranks would work well for me. I appreciate your help, I will probably either buy or keep the 175 cranks depending on what cranks I currently have. : )
@@HungrySharkMaster In the list of priorities of bike fitting, I think that cranklength comes further down anyway. Finding settings for saddle height, setback, stem length and bar reach etc is much more important and makes a much bigger difference in ride feel than + or - 5mm in crank length. That's not to say it's not important, but I wouldn't focus on it too much before you haven't found a base setting that you like.
going from 42cm handlebars to 38cm bars can also make a huge difference and not also for aerodynamics, it keeps your elbows in closer which allows you to keep your arms straighter which has nearly eliminated my low back pain. Wide bars will cause you to bend your back more, it seems like pro riders never bend the lower back but just have a really flexible upper-mid back which is something you're probably born with.
This. Having too wide handlebars increases “effective” reach. Too high reach and everything is messed up at all other levels. The tendency of a lot of bike fitters to fit with too high saddle height and too high reach is the receipt for disaster.
Pretty much matches my experience. Technically 175 cranks fit me, but with age, injuries and decreased flexibility I felt like I was pedaling squares with longer cranks, and my overall speed and power were decreasing. Switching to 170 cranks helped. But I also found the original 172.5 cranks on my old school steel road bike were very comfy and felt significantly better than the 175. So even a seemingly minor change might help some riders. And I plan to try 165 on the one bike that still has 175, mostly to use with aero bars.
I totally relate to you mate. I'm a muscular cyclist too and my aerodynamic profile is not ideal. Chicks love the guns though haha
Been watching your videos for a minute now, never knew you were a rower! Cheers mate, I'm in the transition right now thanks to COVID.
Nice one mate, you know how to hurt yourself so you will do well.
I switched to 165mm cranks a couple years ago. My friend is 6'8" (I think) and rides 170mm cranks. Based on that ratio, someone my height (5'9") should be on 146mm cranks. The converse is that if 165mm is "small" for me, then a 190mm crank would be equally small for a 6'8" rider. I think people just don't realize how narrow the range of crank-length choices is, compared to the relatively wide range of human body size and leg length.
Im only 5'6" i wonder where Ill get my crank size 😃
@@robertphilip6649 I'm 5 '2 feel good about yourself
I don't know where you are getting such conversions, watch gcn video. You don't need 144 mm
Excelente información, siempre me pregunte como configuraron las bicicletas de los profesionales, los veo pedalear y a penas se mira que mueven las piernas, " bielas cortas ", bueno que la cadencia se eleva, pero el desgaste muscular es menor por lo que hay mayor resistencia, Excelente video, saludos de Guatemala.
thanks for these videos, Cam! Bike fit is a fascinating subject, and one that most bikers neglect, and unfortunately I'm on that group... I also have FAI (hip impingement) and although I can diminish it with stretches, it takes a toll in longer rides. I have a bikefit scheduled for the end of this month and hope that some adjustments can help.. changing the cranks is one option I'm considering for some time now and your videos only reinforce that idea haha now I think I gotta take a look on that saddle too lol
interesting... I solved the knee outward problem by moving the feet out 4mm extended axles with the clear maxed laterally toward the medial aspect.. Then put angle wedges that angle the shoe top biased toward the top tube. This had the effect of brining my knees toward the top tube. There are two ways to get around the impingement... knees out or knees in, but knees in increases power. Do a simple standing squat without shoes and have the knees move toward each other. It is a natural movement, and one can feel it very powerful. Try it...
Solid humblebrag about the massive chest and arms! My rower-upper body left me almost as soon as I put the boat in the rack in ‘04. And for some reason I just can’t seem to convince my wife that I used to have muscles!
Now, I’ll have to think about shortening the cranks from the 200mm I’ve had the last few years...maybe I’ll get some aero gains from going to 190?
Went to two bike fitters for hip and knee pain concerns and neither recommended shorter cranks - was on 172.5 which is what came stock on my bike. Went to 165mm cranks after doing my own research (I have a 29” inseam) and couldn’t be more pleased. Wish I would have kept the bike fitting $$ in my wallet and just watched more of your videos!! Now about that saddle ... 🤔
I changed down from 172.5 to 167.5 and feeling similar results!
Fascinating. Thank you for a great video about your experience so far 🚲👍
I’m 5’6” and have been riding 170mm cranks for 37 years, logging in over 500,000 miles. My natural cadence is 105 rpms and my back is so flat that my buddies complain about me providing no draft. 😂 No knee, back or hip pain. For my height, 165mm or shorter seems logical; but why mess with a good thing?
high school cam was an absolute unit
Haha! I loved the gym back then. Not so much anymore
I am thinking about doing the same. But it`s hard to find shorter. I also got 172,5 on my roadbike. And I got 175 mm on my MTB bike. I guess I would have to go down on my MTB also. It would be hard to go from 165-167,5 to 175 when riding my MTB. But it`s harder to find shorter cranks to MTB`s. I guess the gears will be lower as it?s a shorter way round. Would it be an idea to go to bigger chainrings to compansate? It also would be interressting to know how tall you are so I could compare
I like this bike fitter guy, he's cool. I'm 6' 1" and I use 175mm cranks currently. I want to try shorter cranks, because I like spinning over doing the Jan Ulrich truck engine thing, lol. What size cranks should I try?
Looking forward to see in "Part 2" how your power numbers have changed. Especially I'm curious to see how much your maximum power and 5 seconds or 30 seconds power have gone down together with going down from normal 172,5 to 165mm short cranks.
Also I'm curious what is faster to use during out of the saddle low cadance high gear climbing .
You can easily test this on a smart home trainer.
On ZWIFT or any indoor cycling activity it doesn't matter if you are more AERODYNAMIC on the bike since it only takes the power numbers into account.
Power is a combination of the force you can output on the pedal multiplied by the crank length wich acts as a lever. So a shorter crank and shorter lever means your force is multiplied by a shorter 165mm lever in stead of 172,5mm. That will result in a lower power output on the axle at the same cadance. Wich only can be compensated by pedalling in higher cadance.
Normally also adding shims under the shoes wich raise the stack height don't improve pedal efficiency. That's why shoe manufacturers especially speedplay specific shoes try to keep their sole stack height as low as possible.
Also regarding the fact that the bike fit put your saddle more backward normally won't improve pedalling efficiency either. Fi on time trial bikes saddles are put more forward and riders sit on the front of the saddle to cycle faster.
So.
Afterall I suspect on 165 mm with shims and the saddle more backward certainly in zwift you will be slower especially during low cadance intervalls with the pro of being more comfortable and have a bit less risk of knee injury. If that more comfort at the cost of probably less watts is what you are looking for then I understand the change.
Good luck with your experiment
Interesting points you make. One other point in your power calculations relating to crank length is torque effectiveness and pedal smoothness which a dual sided power meter can calculate. When I went for 170 to 165 cranks both these parameters improved significantly.. I’ve certainly noticed on Zwift I can produce higher power for the same perceived effort going down the crank size.
@@Yorktimer if 165 mm works better for you than 170 mm then I assume it has to do with your inner leg length or height being also small.
Just to make a comparison without meaning to offent.
I do know that bike manufacturers who produce bikes with 24" wheels for kids between 11-16 years who have small legs allready even use 170mm cranks in most cases.
Most bikes or ebike conversion kits made in china by chinese who are also relatively small in general come stock with a 170mm cranksets.
So 165mm is pretty rare.
-5mm crank difference wich is the circle radius that gets multiplied by 2 cranks makes = 1cm of difference for the whole pedal circle diameter. Wich is a big difference .
But if it works better in terms of smoothness and efficiency for you , I can understand that ! No hard feelings.
For me small cranks feel like i'm riding on a kids bike again.
I have tried 170mm in an adult bicycle wich felt wrong for me in every way.
But i'm relatively long 1m.85 with 87cm of inner leg length and eu46 long feet .
@@Yorktimer another aspect for choosing longer cranks can be "the training effect."
While making shorter 165mm small circle movements I expect the training effect to be less at the same rpm and same training time than done this while cycling with longer fi 175 mm crank bigger circle movements. Even if the smaller cranks resistance or load is higher.
I think so because many fitness coaches said and in fitness strength training research it has been proven that by making a deeper knee bent squats ( a movement with knee bent similar to the downward pedalling stroke) the training effect is bigger than by doing small squats.
Basically all fitness strength training excercises wich involve large intense movements require more muscle activation wich leads to a bigger training effect with eventually faster muscle growth than done by smaller range muscle exercises.
Sure making larger movements is harder more intense en requires more energy than making smaller movements. But like every movement it is possible to adapt to larger muscle activation exercises.
One of the reasons I train or one of the main reason why racers train is to increase muscle power wich eventually leads to higher wattages on the bike.
The longer cranks pedalling stroke movement on my Training bike probably enables me to achieve this faster or in a less amount of training time while even after 5 years of use untill now not getting any knee injuries.
More indepth info about leg quadriceps (squat) TRAINING EFFECT is explained in this youtube video:
ruclips.net/video/-SI7ZISI8Tg/видео.html
Wanting to choose my crank length is my second reason (after because tinker) for wanting to build my next bike from scratch.
Thanks for this video.
[I'm not sure it's the women you need to apologize to for talking about crushed nuts...]
You should state your inseam before talking about crank arm length. From the floor to the pelvic bone, in bare feet. That is the most critical factor.
Also, aerodynamics gains don't equate to healthy physical structural mechanics. A body is not designed to be bent over with the neck arched backwards.
Can't wait for the 2nd review!! I'm a short guy with short legs... thinking about going down 165mm to 155mm ...
When I went to a Chorus 12 cassette from a Record 10 my Mechanic/fitter suggested a 170mm crank. It was amazing what a difference 2.5mm would make. At first my legs were expecting more resistance and would enter an "empty" space just before the top of the stroke. Hey, this is as good as I can do to explain it. Ultimately I'm at an energy saving smooth cadence. I feel like I'm part of the drive train and not pushing from behind.
Inspired by Cam’s crank change, I did the same after decades of racing and otherwise fast riding. I’m long-waisted and short-legged, like Cam, but contrarily I raced using 175mm cranks with some success (several state TT championships during the 80s, notably Colorado and Alaska.)! I am excited by the improvements made in my position!
Awesome to hear a William, thanks for sharing and keep me posted 👍
I like longer cranks for sprinting quick power, thats whats holding me back from going to 165mm
Changed to sub compact crankset with 165mm cranks at age 64 and never looked back. I'm now 69 and continue riding in mountainous terrain with no joint problems.
Hi Cam. Interesting results. Could you please tell me what is your inseam height and your overall height? I’m curious to see if that had anything to do with the ideal crankarm length.
I'm curious about this too. Recently had a bike fit and now I'm thinking an important element was not discussed /overlooked
I am 179 cm, I don't have my inseam, I'll get Neill to send me the doc and I'll read it out in a vid
I run shorter cranks than what many people my size would run and I will say that the shorter cranks are the way to go if you want to be aero. I actually found the shorter cranks allowed me to close down gaps better than the longer cranks because it is easier to spin up the power to close gaps. Most importantly, it has made it more comfortable which means I want to ride more.
There is a study with female MTB who went from 175mm to 170mm cranks and they hit their peak power much quicker with the 170 cranks than the longer cranks. I think it torque situations, the longer cranks may be a hair better but everywhere else, the shorter cranks are better.
Great video. Thank you for sharing.
sell'sell sell. good if your 4 foot tall
Great video. Was wondering if we could get a video on what happens if cranks are too short?
And the best way to diagnose a hip impingement.
Thanks
Time to drill a hole in my cranks and make them 165 😄
Haha
I’ve tried it with an old unwanted crank to test if it would work but I’m glad I didn’t used my proper ones. 😆
Don't forget to slam the stem first 😆
I just saw this video and I was wondering of you had any update on how the shorter crank length worked for you.
Hi Cam. How’s it going with the 165 cranks? Are you still using them? I’m considering going from 172.5 to 165 and would appreciate your thoughts!
Did u do it
Hi Cam, I was looking to see if you had commented on your crankarm length change recently. I hope that the 165’s have been good to you. Love your channel, lots of fun to watch and informative. Cheers
Hey Cam great vieeo, just watching the old footage from the school gym and the ergos gave me sweaty palms! I can almost hear the whine of the flywheel
haha! Good to hear from you mate. Hope all is well.
Easy ,,easy ,, They are an awesome seat ,, for tri bike as well :-)
If you have a wide frame then I think I'm the hulk..lol..your small and good for you
After getting used to 165mm, it is so freaking doing tight turns on my commute bike with 175mm and wide flats #pedalstrikes
How about when climbing? I have both 172.5 and 170 and I pedal better on longer crankarm. Maybe do a test ourtside where you can ride for real. Not just on a traner.
Great video, thanks. I'm proportioned with short legs and long torso, and with deep hips to boot, so the 172.5mm cranks that came with the right sized frame just never felt good. This has convinced me to seek out some cheapo 165mm to test.
Wow! This is a gold mine of knowledge. I am 5'8" and have been riding with 170. Now, am seriously looking at a 165.
I love your videos but I think your guru friend speaks BS. I'm a new cyclist but I get the science of all of this and he is just not credible. The american terminology would be he is a snake oil salesman.
I wouldn’t go so far as to use the same verbage as you, but I think I agree with your point. Check a series called “bike fit Tuesdays” by another youtuber, francis cade. The bike fitters name is James, based in london. His philosophy is that bike fit is not a game of mm, but rather a game of inches, given that bodies are taller in the morning shorter in the evening (due to most ppl’s position through the day)... he seems far more “honest” than the guy Cam’e using. And I say honest not because I think he’s deliberately selling snake oil, but he’s being dishonest with himself about how his eye can spot a position being 3mm out instantly (think he said as much in one video). I do think this series of Cam’s is useful but as with anything in life - read/watch widely, use your own brain and experience and draw your own conclusions.
@@thedownunderverse you said all of it better than I did. Yes I've seen the video from James'. Yes better but I'm still suspect. I had my bike fit from Nick @probikeFC here in VA. He was a pro cyclist, no BS and my fit definitely resulted in measurable results but I did not leave thinking oh the next mm will up my game.
Brendan Davis true or not, the fact of the matter is that fella is known now to 67K subscribers ;)
@@thedownunderverse ok but people dont vary by inches thoughout the day I'm yet to meet a fitter that doesn't sound like a politician tbh.
glenn oc Agreed. I think him saying its a game of inches, not mm, is not supposed to be taken literally. The message is, once you’re “about right”, with the bike setup the body (which is a changing, biological entity) is surprisingly adaptable and adjusts (within reason). A few mm here or there is largely negligible/psychological.
The best things I changed in my 50years Plus cycling/racing: pro bike fit, speedplay pedals, SMP saddle and 165mm cranks ( from 172.5mm). The pedals and SMP saddle help you with comfort, but the shorter cranks added speed! Great videos Cam!
Your height/inseam?
@@adamkubiak1933 1.77m. No idea about inseam. Over the years I raced on 175mm, 172.5mm cranks. After much research I changed to 165mm. I instantly noticed massive changed. Spinning the gears, keeping your speed, no backpain. Better acceleration and climbing. I would suggest to try before you buy, if you can borrow them, if not buy 105 cranks. Good luck.
@@kristiaandoms2822 better acceleration and climbing seems opposite of what many report - namely a loss of torque
@@thedownunderverse It works for me.
so, less power but more speed, so for slow steep uphill is better to have longer cranks on mtb
Great video mate. I just had a proper bike fit and one of the recommendations was to move to a 165 .5 crank. I was sceptical but you have convinced me otherwise.
A bike fit from an expert bike fitter is the best money you will ever spend on your cycling hobby/passion.
100% mate
Hi Cameron, really like your series. I have a question in regards to number 5 power vs speed. What is often not mentioned is the precise effect of the length of the cranks on your aerodynamics. While it is true that the rotation will effectively be a smaller part of the frontal profile, it should also lead to a higher seatpost height thus placing the rider higher with respect to say, the ground or the BB. Manufacturers appear to keep pushing the BB lower but whether this happens to place the rider lower to the ground I'm not sure. Leads up to my first (1) question: is it actually aerodynamically favourable to raise your seatpost like that, or are wind conditions incrementally (1cm?) higher from the ground less favourable? (2) Second question is about what I can do to improve aerodynamics since I've really tried to optimise everything and can't seem to get above 42 kph avg on my road bike training rides. I've tried to get the deep section wheels, aero pedals, aero bidons, skinsuit, aero helmet, aero socks, aero shoes, slamming stem, putting tt grease in all the bearings, using waxed chain, ceramic pulley wheels (not oversized since I don't believe in it)... it almost seems as if riding at high wattage (360) is almost as fast as riding at lower wattage (300), but I may just be unlucky in the air density and temperature conditions (?). Let me know if I missed something.
I experience everything both of you talked about ever since I went to 165mm on my R7000 50-34 on an 11-30. I’ve been comfortable spinning and I use cardio and not of my leg muscles. I find when I hide my head about shoulder level I can pedal easier when maintaining speed or gain when doing efforts. I also went from a size 52 CAAD12 to a 50 when a motor bike crashed and wrecked my left seat and chain stay when the radiator clipped it last July 12, 2020. I have a Prologo Dimension 143 NDR positioned forward and tilted to reduce pressure down under 😅. I did have to raise the height a bit after I changed my frame. I didn’t slam my stem like before yet but I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to handle it if ever I decide to do it again. I’m still waiting for the right stem and bar combo for me and I’m observing if I won’t feel more fatigued on this setting. I have my 90mm -6 degree stem with 400mm compact bar. I felt that I curled a little bit on the bike and I feel like I can still go 1 frame size lower. The bike did feel nimbler.
Your opening line is absolutely dito for me. Despite a couple of bike fits never felt at home on the bike. Changed to 170. Now thinking I didn't go low enough (was on 175). Great video as always.
Total game-changer
My old mates...😂
i can feel difference between 170 and 172.5
Always up for more Niel!
may I ask what is your height in feet Sir?
Hi, I would like to change from 165mm to 155mm cranks. What should I do with my saddle position? Should I move it back, or up, or both thanks
Yu should try the newly revised Specialized Sitero saddle
The Neil guy is phenomenal. His analytics and solutions are incredible.
Hey Cam! I just got a proper size 51 bmc tmr after riding a size 54 for a long time (I'm 1.68cm/5'6ft). The bike I used to ride had a 172.5 stages power meter but my new bike has a 170mm crank size. The dealer is willing to change my crank set for 172.5 for free. Should I do and keep my power meter or is it better to stick with the shorter crank (better for my size in theory) and buy a new power meter.
Cheers!
I'd stick with the shorter ones. This isn't such a big difference, but still a bit noticable. I'm 5'8", and I use 170s now, changed from 172.5. Buy that power meter, it's a better investment that will pay itself off on the long run
Hard for me to say mate, I’m no bike fitting expert either. Good luck with the decision
Horses for courses. I went to 180mm cranks (from 170mm) and race performance improved a lot. Better jump and better able to roll a big gear on rough roads. Cornered better in crits as well, I don't know why. But Freddy Maertens used to ride 165mm and he was definitely quick! I think the thing is, 172.5mm is probably not the best, whoever you are, so try the extremes and see how it goes.
Thanks for sharing Peter
How about a look at tadpole trike cranks...l think 170 is way too long. Ghanks
Thanks for cool videos about bike fitting! Regarding 12:25 - If you want to fix your ugly SMP saddle... nothing easier... get a tool called seam clipper and remove all those embroided logos ;)
Hey Cam, did you feel any difference out the saddle with the shorter cranks?
A little less lever, you feel that a touch. Not majorly though.
Next mod, Drillium?
Was Neill trained by Steve Hogg? All the changes he's made, including the smp saddle, are pretty much what Steve recommends.
Yep, he is referenced on Steve Hoggs website under the SHBF locations
Yep, he has. He's mentioned it in a few videos as well, but not expecting you to have seen all of them as I've pumped out a few with him now! Hope all is well mate.
i think most bikefiters with IBFI certificate also recommend similar things, most of the part
Gotta say the results of this are quite staggering. You look so much better on the bike!
Can you do an overly of before and after change? Would really be nice to see the difference
There's kinda one in there, but I could do a better job with that. I'll put that in an up and coming
Aero is people with no power !!
What's Cams height and inseam? Would be nice for reference purposes. Thinking about going down to 165 or 170 (from 175). Inseam 89cm, height 187.
I went down from 170mm to 165mm over 12 months ago, I noticed I was spinning faster when I already spun around 90rpm, took me a while to adjust. I did a few crits with that set up and over the course of a season I went faster than I ever had in comparable races. I find that I can spin better on climbs too. I’ve since had a bike fit to tune my position on the bike, but I’m happy with 165 and wouldn’t change now. Power is down a little bit speed is higher, guess it has a little to do with being able to get more aero too. Enjoyed the vid 👍
I want to make the same change but need some direction on the Q measurement (width). I think that the shorter crank will make me want a wider set up. Thank You in advance to anyone's input.
Sylvester Voigt in my experience I’ve not needed a wider set up. I have recently moved one of my cleats out but this has only been done so that my foot is in line with my knee and not inward of the centreline. Other than that there has been no change in the Q measurement on my bike or any need to change it. A bike fit may help resolve this for you?
Great video Cam! Would you recommend 165mm cranks for a recreational cyclist? Most of my rides are 50-70km
You should check out Dylan Johnson's videos on short cranks, as well. His takeaway was that there's no evidence short cranks do anything negative, apart from reducing instantaneous torque. On the flip side, they help reduce fatigue to knees and hips, particularly in less flexible cyclists. Most recreational cyclists (like me!) are not as flexible as pros, so the benefits can be quite noticeable.