I watched some ESO stuff for drops and I think the highest online channel had sub 10k viewers at most and that was when it was a free week on Epic which would have bumped the numbers up.
ESO is a hilarious game I dont see how it has any kind of population. On paper it should be the best MMO with the amount of content and the lore of Elder Scrolls yet it has even worse combat than Roblox mini games. Somehow the devs have not changed the combat since its initial terrible release where everyone hated it. All they have done is build on top of a deeply flawed system by adding new classes and doing slight balance changes that hardly make a difference. I genuinely cant think of a game near its success level with such unbearable combat.
Honestly, Twitch should simply block/no longer allow auto-play on Embeds in general all-together. Problem solved. That's the real problem here, fextralife just takes advantage of an oppertunity given by Twitch in a disgusting way. Maxroll used to be quite agressive with this to, but they became more reasonable now thankfully. Autioplaying embeds are annoying and unwanted in 99.9% of cases, consumes a ton of data if you're capped, and are way, way more invasive than you're typical advertisment.
@@bohemicbohemian9190everyone suffers as then the advertises pull out as they aren’t getting a good roi. Streamers get paid less so less people streaming so we get less content. It’s just bad all round.
@@A5tr0101what does not being logged in to twitch matter? At any give time most streamers have a chatter amount 10 times less than the viewers. Which means majority of your viewers are lurkers, does that mean they shouldnt count? The problem is that fextralife website "viewers" count as regular twitch vieweres. That shouldnt be the case. They should still allow embeding but make it so the viewers from embeds dont count.
this is like when crime bosses get taken down for stuff like tax loopholes; they're technically not viewbotting, but they ARE breaking the guidelines by a few pixels
The reason it’s 2 pixels short is that there’s probably a breakpoint for the embedded player which makes it behave differently (not to fextralifes advantage)
As a dev for over decade I can confirm that it looks more like simple incompetence than malicious thing. A lot of people without much knowledge about development use WordPress with some ready to go templates. Such templates can restrict size and mess up responsiveness and many people just ignore issues and don't know how to fix it without messing up whole thing. Many people to hire are not really professionals or they are professionals but they are focused on selling fast and cheap WP stuff and they won't suddenly do something more expensive and time consuming simply because they have schedule and people in line... ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
Whoa whoa whoa, it's not like they're extorting or murdering people. They missed a minimum requirement of pixels??? By 2 pixels?! Why do you care? This is some Internet hall monitor shit. Why should I care that they're fleecing advertisers? I hate advertisers. I think I kind of like Fextralife.
Make sure to show this guy some love if you all have the time to. He is currently having Fextralife bots with accounts that were created today commenting on his video and telling him how worthless it is.
really? so those guys are really scummy people, specially considering their response of "oh we are just trying to help, we are just a small team, we are people too you know?"
not a bot, and dont think he's worthless lol. but i do think people mad about this should maybe create their own successful site if they want to reap the rewards of one. otherwise they should prolly stfu and stop whining about something so inconsequential. oh no he's always top stream of what ever game he's playing, ill never get that many kids and coomers that are in-between hot tub streamers to watch my stream! :( e-beggars problems are hilarious.
About the last 2/3 of the video... I'm just happy that the gaming community is starting to shift and raise their standards. It's a step in the right direction to force the industry to stop their downwards trend and do better. It's almost as if the few amazing games we've gotten recently have woken up people to the fact they don't have to settle for garbage.
Sure, but can we go after the bigger industry players rather than a 2-person company? While their rule bending is scummy, I feel bad for them for how out of proportion this has been blown recently.
@@mariusj.2192 The last 2/3 of the video were about Immortals of Aveum, do you really need to white knight these cheaters in every comment possible that isn't even about them? People like you need some serious help, they are cheating scumbags and you feel bad for them? Why, just because it blew up and they now have to face consequences of their actions? Or just because it's 2 of them? That doesn't make it okay or a reason they shouldn't be scrutinized.
Im really not sure about that, the majority of people still will preorder stinky games like Diablo 4 and be ok with that and even buy skins in a fullprice game. Only time will tell if those people learn some selfrespect or continue their practice.
He was on my New World Server when the game launched (Hades). People from his faction raised war on us and he somehow managed to win the war lottery and get his company to attack our teritory. The shit was a big fucking mess, we steamrolled them and i went to watch the vod. You'd think that the top of the list streamer, with 40k+ viewers, playing a game that requires 50 man coordination would steamroll an entire 1k2 population capped server, but I found out that despite his numberss, the guy had no community on the server. It was so bad that he was forced to pick random dudes from random companies because his company was dead. He was just running around in the battlefield with the only 4-5 people who actually played with him. He tried giving calls through his stream but since no one actually watches him, no one knew who he was and no one was listening. They didnt make any progress and ended up getting spawnkilled and their camp's gate. I'm sad the vod doesnt exist anymore, because i killed him over and over again with my firestaff/IG. His complaining and baby rage about lack of coordination was really hilarious.
I always wondered how Fextralife went from streaming Elder Scrolls Online to 37 people to the numbers they pull now but never cared enough to look into it. All of this drama has been revealing at least.
@@seemjibernadino6487 a few of the worst wikis on the internet, with embedded players in every single page. those aren't real numbers. that's not growth. let's see how many viewers they get if they remove the embedded twitch from their wikis. their build guides aren't bad, but they're not entertaining. no one is watching one of those and thinking "this guy is fun, i wanna watch him stream." because while the information isn't terrible, the people talking in them are about as entertaining as drying paint.
@@matthewalvarez6884 half the pages i've checked either had incomplete info or wrong info. so no. they're more focused on having a page than making sure they have the right info on the page or a page worth looking at. like it's been said, if their wikis were good no one would care as much as they do. as it stands, most of their wiki pages have the info you're looking for in the comments section and not on the actual page. but even if they had a useful wiki, it wouldn't excuse the way they embed their stream to bot viewers for their twitch.
Fextralife always comes up in my feed and all this time I was wondering why that Stream had so many viewers. I never found it entertaining or helpful, so never got behind why that stream was "popular". Guess now I know why.
I was doing the same thing he did to figure out how to disable the Twitch bot and Found that even when the window is not visible it still exists on the website. Twitch also recommended their stream to me because I was logged in to Twitch when I visited their site.
@@yugnok did you not watch the video? they are not following the rules put in place by twitch and getting away with it. it may be an "intended feature", but they are not using it for it's intended purpose.
@@Ozmourne Personally I don't. I see this as a pretty harmless way for a free wiki site to try and support itself. I have yet to find a single person this harms in any way, the biggest complaint I've seen actually levied about this is that it makes their channel become featured at times. I see this as a total non-issue as well however, doesn't seem like a big deal to me. A popular site dedicated to free information about gaming supporting itself in this way seems harmless to anyone unless you're bootlicking advertisers. It's kind of silly to be so worried that an embed on a wiki is 2 pixels too small too if you ask me.
Someone should make a Firefox and Chrome extension that either deletes the twitch player or even better, redirects to small streamers on all fextralife wikis
As a web-developer I have a few key-points to highlight: 1. I personally thought the embed-abuse gonna be far worse than what was presented. 2. 398 - 400 .. height cannot be interpreted as "intentional" .. (especially when we're talking about height constraints in web-development) Most probably a auto-embed plugin mistake. Not a direct fault. Cause if they really using wordpress, 95% they also used an embed tool and not wrote the code themselves. 3. Coding a website that checks ALL the web-development standards is actually tedious job: optimize images, implement accessability, responsivness, optimize load times, mobile friendly etc. I was really expecting literally hidden embeds on all type of screens and whatnot. However all above does not mitigate the fact that there's a stream embed on every fucking single page of the website for no reason. So the intent of bumping their viewership is obvious. The illegality, is not.
There would never be "illegality", the point is not it being illegal or not, not the embedding itself at least, what could be illegal is them using their fake viewcount for advertisers, which is one step further down the line
@@joe_ferreira i mean that point is absolutely true, but the only ones that can do anything about it is twitch, who clearly does not care. There is no chance a sponsor company finds that out on their own
@@pinolskun8764 Solution is easy actually, next time you see something advertised in Fextralife, tweet @the sponsor or comment in their socials that Fextralife, a sponsored by them stream on twitch, is viewboting their ads on their stream and damaging their brand image by asociation.
they dont know this is happening they only evaluate the channel reach and viewer count, and some of them check scores on some socialblade like sites. Advertirsers are not viewers they are just businesses trying to get their products out there.
definitely has, just never brought to light because people were always worried about their own positions. but asmon in specific, doesnt give a shit, hes made his money, hes happy with his stature, and he knows he can step onto another platform if he feels like it. He knows he can speak and break the barrier on this for a lot of people to see, hoping it causes a new standard to be stated.
By the way "Immortals of Aveum" the main game advertised on Fextralife's main Twitch page, is averaging between 200-300 concurrent players on stream. When they are paying to be advertised to 30,000 people. I don't think they are getting their money's worth, whatever they are paying Fextra. Sure Fextra probably told them that some views are embedded, but do they know 95% of the viewers aren't actually on the Twitch page, where the actual advertisement for their game is?
So I'm working for a larger German streamer, and we had a 2h Immortals of Aveum sponsored Stream as well. The game didn't look too bad, while we explicitly said, that the performance could be way worse on non-high-end PCs. I didn't know the game did so bad afterwards, it looked quite nice, like watching a movie at some point. The start gave me Arcane vibes, which is a good sign I guess.
i am SO GLAD to watch fextra finally come under fire for the shit they have been doing for YEARS. it always blew my mind how they have view botted like this for 10 years and no one has batted an eye until now, imagine how much money they've sucked off people along the way
@@MrMalkraz twitch enables and benefits from this, if they stopped allowing it advertisers would spend less and everyone would be worse off. It makes no sense why people are outraged.
bro, studying IT (in your 2nd year) already teaches you atleast how dynamic websites work (that uses auto width and height function on it), as it will be a school project for one of your majors. (in our case, just a simple registration/login page and an eccomerce page with database) I get that ad placements could be changed for preference. but them not putting it on a popup player (seperated frame that overlays the main page) so that it could be viewed on the whole page with a hide function is a massive oversight. Well I hope the sponsors do see this problem regarding his "popularity" and dynamic website... since this is fraud or breach of contract.
Immortal launch between BG3 and AC6. They sabotaged themselves. Also I saw cohh have technical problem on the beginning. It's a huge red flag for a new game.
Yeah, I think their usage of sponsored streams to build interest for the game also helped in their self-sabotage. I saw parts of one sponsored stream and it was full of technical issues.The game also seemed even less interesting than Forspoken, which is a feat in and of itself. The game was just doomed, I think.
@@twilkdamilk4659 That is the sad reality. We all(myself included) pretend like baldurs gate and elden ring prove that good games make money but in the end ea&co make more than larian and fromsoft with a fraction of the effort. And so it will get worse unless someone outright criminalizes microtransactions.
you know damn well when fextralife is negotiating sponsor prices with a sponsor they're like: "well we demand X amount of money because you see we get a consistent 30K viewers, that's a lot of exposure for you." It's so disingenuous and should be punished
Who cares? Sponsors are shitty anyway, I'm glad someone is utilizing a good way of getting more money out of them. Maybe other streamers should stop complaining and use the same strategy while it works to make themselves some money?
@@brussailpook8213 they rarely do and most of the time these marketing people discussing the deals have no clue. Try explaining to your mom or dad how fextralife is faking their viewercount, they most likely won't understand anything you're saying (mine definitely won't). Those are the kind of people that are making those deals most of the time.
Oh, I see now. If you go to their wiki for a guide, automatically turns your view of that page into a view in your stream, and worse, if you open many tabs at the same time, will it count as more viewers? Does it count guess accounts to inflate the viewer record?
Personally, I used wiki pages at half screen size so that I can check whats happening in game so for me if I go to fextralife's wiki the twitch embed autoplays on mute at the bottom of the page where I can't even see it which makes it ridiculous that I would count as a viewer but as it is at the moment twitch is finessing the advertisers with the system so they don't care. At minimum to get this changed advertisers need to be made aware of this prime viewing experience that people are getting of the adverts on streams using embeds like this, because frankly it's no different than view botting in the current state.
The channel linked in the description is the wrong yt account if you just click the name. The difference is easily spottable if you open a tab with the video link and a tab with the hyperlink on the dapperfoxtrot1044 name.
@@matthewseelowi have been playing half year and yes there is a lot of pay to fast and 100$ bundles, but you cant get the cards if you are patient. New ones not that easy without spending money
@@matthewseelow Naw man, that game is not a money trap. Sure you can speed up the rate of progression but it simply doesn't matter because more cards doesn't make you win more games. The shop prices for real money ARE atroucious but you simply ignore them... You can also savely ignore the season pass for 10 bucks pass because it's literally like one card that you absolutely can make do without on your collector journey (you WILL earn the card later anyway) and a couple cosmetics. Gameplay is fun and you keep getting new stuff all the time. After a couple of months you will have like 200 cards in your collection and will be able to play so many different decks. The rate of collection WILL slow down, but there are several systems in place to let you get the cards you really want to have for your decks. And besides that you will just keep earning new random cards all the time. For long time players it becomes more about getting cool variants of existing cards. Playing the game is about making great decks with what you got and then playing the deck well. You don't just stomp over people with broken stuff or vice versa because eventually you know what kind of decks are "the meta" and how to handle them. You can absolutey take wins with your beginner cards. People lose only if they don't know what kind of decks are out there. There are ton's of really strong answers in every beginner's collection. e.g. Shang Chi, Cosmo, Enchantress, Armor are all strong counters to popular meta decks that everybody can play. Because it's purely a PvP game, the game is all about balance, no matter if it's a beginner card or some fresh new design. Older and underplayed cards get buffs all the time. I'd say 95% of all cards are viable in the right deck.
So.. that EA immortals game got streamed to 220k people at peak, with what i assume 30-35k of them belonging to Fextralife. this means over 10% of the people who "watched" the streams, prob didnt even know they watched it. man thats sad af.
To be fair though, the money EA spent to sponsor a stream with non-watchers was probably better spent than the money that went to streamers with an actual audience, because from what little I saw of the game, it looked boring, rather bland and uninteresting. I think that game was just doomed to die from the start.
When I was trying to use their wiki (which was the only good one for Elden Ring) this was super annoying to deal with on every page. I'm glad people are shaming them
Seeing Immortals do so poorly is pretty sad. It’s a really fun early 2010’s style fps, but the combination of negative prelaunch sentiment from EA branding, busy release period, and full price have destroyed any hope of momentum. It’d be interesting to see if a $40 release in mid-July could’ve significantly change things. It feels like the type of game that’s a perfect pallet cleanser during the slow period inbetween big AAA releases, but not a game people would choose instead of one. Hope it can pick up some steam when it comes to gamepass later down the line.
In regards to Aveum, I believe most people couldn't even play it even if they want to. The min spec req is pretty hefty for a large part of the world and even then there are rumors that it struggles on that. I bet a lot of people actually bought and played the game, then subsequently refunded it when it just does not work on their rig.
Twitch has got to add a script that at least tells them what site an embed is playing on, what dimensions the player is, and moderate it worth staff. They could even go as far as requiring a kind of partnership with specific sites in a whitelist to allow embedding.
This is why i keep blocking the twitch player with uBlock Origin, by selecting "block elements" from the page. I hate auto play, especially with my low quality internet.
To calculate the percentage drop between 220,000 and 85, you can use the following formula: Percentage Drop = ((Initial Value - Final Value) / Initial Value) * 100 In this case: Initial Value = 220,000 Final Value = 85 So, the percentage drop would be: ((220,000 - 85) / 220,000) * 100 = 99.96136% Rounded to two decimal places, the percentage drop is approximately 99.96%.
I'm about 1 minute and 30 seconds into the video right now and I already love this guy. Dude came prepared for battle. "Okay let's talk about it!" Hell yeah, let's.
About immortals of aveum: Not only it's bland linear game, it's also very demanding. The minimum specs for the game is last gen mid-high gaming pc, people just don't want to waste their $60 for a bland game that barely run on their pc.
I commented this on the last Fextralife vid, but I hadn’t heard of them before these vids came out lol. Feels like I’ve been living under a rock or something
I do wonder how many actual people they have on their wiki at once to always be around 30k ish viewers and actually keeping the site open up for that long? Could you actually have bots to create clicker traffic on their site to get views which could get around the twitch TOS of view botting?
So.. What would stop someone at Fextralife just running multiple VM instances that open a ton of browsers and tabs, you could run an auto script to resize the frames specifically to not have the player hogging resources?
I dont get why EA sets their IPs up for failure by cramming them between big hitter games. They did the same BS to Titanfall 2 as theyre doing to Immortals. (Which isnt even a bad game)
Part of EA's problem is that they don't put much thought past viewer counts. But I think it's far better to advertise on a streamer that plays your type of game.
Idc about Fex screwing advertisers and gaming the system, its the malicious bot attacks on potential competitors while botting own content to the top to monopolize without merit that is unforgiveable.
It's all bad honestly. Screwing advertisers will trickle down to forcing more ads on the platform which will effect anyone watching content. Everything they've been doing is pretty shady though. Did you hear about how they treated the Demon Souls and Dark souls communities and creators? Back in the early days of their wikis they'd let the upload guides, builds and edits but after they did they'd edit them out and make their own to put up. After that they'd ban those same people.
Let's say I have limited internet connection, like mobile connection. Arn't they stealing your bandwidth by auto playing? I think people can Sue them for that.(Not a Lawyer, so maybe not)
The problem is the only damn wiki for Baldur's Gate 3 content is Fextralife. Just a bunch of shitty IGN guides and other terrtble resources. Fextra's isn't much better granted. But we need an actual BG3 wiki to really put the hurt on him.
bg3(dot)wiki, community wiki for baldur's gate 3 that is pretty good (does miss a few things here and there, but the game is new so it's to be expected).
There seems to be a community-run one as well, but Fextralife's often comes up first. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links, but searching "bg3 wiki" should turn it up in results
@@kaydenRL free market is not one sided. He can learn all the tricks as a provider to get all the advantage. Customers can in turn talk among ourselves to say the product is shit. Or how to access better products. Why you taking side of the seller and not the buyer?
Its sad cause with the immortals situation it shows how little streamers actually affect the people who will play the game. Doesn't matter if many watched since it gave a bad payout for EA. Also sad when the game doesn't do well when EA was willing to invest into a a new IP.
but also, if they never spent millions on sponsors they could of made the game better, from the steam comments its not optimised for anything under a 4080
@@the_ejj also true but it’s Unreal Engine 5 with nanite and lumen i’ts maybe to be expected. Need to see what Digital Foundry says when Alex posts his video. Hard to say how much better it would run with optimisation. But also good someone pushes graphics like witcher 3, crysis etc did.
They could have just made a better game. One could tell, even before this game released that it was uninspired, generic and overall totally unappealing.
Releasing a game right between 2 of the biggest releases of the year was just setting it up for failure, just like they did with Titanfall. Doing that while charging $70 for it while most people are getting hit HARD by inflation will only cause people to choose which they'd rather buy. Plus if you can only afford a handful of games a year you're more likely to buy the games that'll offer 100s of hours of gameplay compared to Immortals that has like what.... 40 hours max? (Guessing) This is completely EAs fault, they set this launch up to fail. (Which is sad because the game isn't even bad)
Also web dev here, this practice was recently flagged recently to google and many advertising companies have been going after google for this kind of deceptive practice, basically lots of advertisers pay for ads or promotions that are hidden or too small that end up generating no clicks but a lot of "views " , though in reality thoses views are just caused by video autoplaying in a 1x1 px thats hidden from view , many advertisers are sold that they get a lot of views for what they pay for but in reality they pay for false views and get no clicks or real traffic to their products pages at all ... Louis Rossman also did a video about this i think
They're pretty scummy who have also been known to lie all the time. I remember when Demon's Souls started taking off and I found their site. They had a chatroom set up inside the website so those viewing the site could talk to one another. 99% of the topics were people complaining about the auto play ads blasting at 100% volume. FexLea would always, ALWAYS say they never run auto-play ads, yet for years the ads would auto-play. Around the time Dark Souls came out, people were making videos about where to find equipment and builds and posting it to the website under relevant areas, the videos were always taken down then someone else would repost the exact same content but from a different creator, in the end it was always the small group of Fextralife creators making everything and everyone else was removed/banned from making posts. Which is why now, so many pages are either empty or down right WRONG because the people that would edit them have all been banned off the site
That's just it, no one will talk about this. They just keep saying their wikis for this is good. They won't allow anyone to edit or add to the wikis. They've done this with so many games and have gone into countless communities to push their content to the top and push the other creators and original content down.
I honestly don't give a crap that they did this, they're not bothering the end user, they're scamming twitch and I'm for screwing big corpo.😂 Plus they got those views from acrual people using their wiki, so it is their audience watching, a real person.
I personally use my monitor half for discord and half browser. I'd never get to see the twitch player and still count as a viewer without ever knowing. Fuck this.
I remember watching Fextra play ESO and was like "aint noway 40k people are watching an eso stream no matter who it is" and thats when I realized.
this
I watched some ESO stuff for drops and I think the highest online channel had sub 10k viewers at most and that was when it was a free week on Epic which would have bumped the numbers up.
@@drunkenprayer8390 I've only ever seen 20k when the game was in its prime. I love the game but it's not ever gonna break numbers on Twitch lmao
@@drunkenprayer8390 besides unless fextra is streaming it
ESO is a hilarious game I dont see how it has any kind of population. On paper it should be the best MMO with the amount of content and the lore of Elder Scrolls yet it has even worse combat than Roblox mini games. Somehow the devs have not changed the combat since its initial terrible release where everyone hated it. All they have done is build on top of a deeply flawed system by adding new classes and doing slight balance changes that hardly make a difference.
I genuinely cant think of a game near its success level with such unbearable combat.
Honestly, Twitch should simply block/no longer allow auto-play on Embeds in general all-together. Problem solved.
That's the real problem here, fextralife just takes advantage of an oppertunity given by Twitch in a disgusting way. Maxroll used to be quite agressive with this to, but they became more reasonable now thankfully.
Autioplaying embeds are annoying and unwanted in 99.9% of cases, consumes a ton of data if you're capped, and are way, way more invasive than you're typical advertisment.
The issue is Twitch still profits from it, they give the advertisers inflated numbers and get more money that way…
@@israelmxc This. Fextra gets better numbers, Twitch gets betetr numbers, everybody wins. Except small streamers who dont do things like this,
@@bohemicbohemian9190everyone suffers as then the advertises pull out as they aren’t getting a good roi. Streamers get paid less so less people streaming so we get less content. It’s just bad all round.
They won't , Twitch is already making loss and they want money
@@A5tr0101what does not being logged in to twitch matter? At any give time most streamers have a chatter amount 10 times less than the viewers. Which means majority of your viewers are lurkers, does that mean they shouldnt count? The problem is that fextralife website "viewers" count as regular twitch vieweres. That shouldnt be the case. They should still allow embeding but make it so the viewers from embeds dont count.
The fact that this guy looks like Gigachad makes this 1000% funnier, like how do you fight this
My very first thought and the epic music just *chef's kiss*
Dude was cooking
Can't agree more lmfao
A gigachad who's also a dev, nothing can stop this man
He actually looks like the main guy from Fextralife at first glance, I was confused for a sec
this is like when crime bosses get taken down for stuff like tax loopholes; they're technically not viewbotting, but they ARE breaking the guidelines by a few pixels
The reason it’s 2 pixels short is that there’s probably a breakpoint for the embedded player which makes it behave differently (not to fextralifes advantage)
Nah, accessibility recommendations arent rules lol
No they aren't... It's literally just an embedded stream...
As a dev for over decade I can confirm that it looks more like simple incompetence than malicious thing. A lot of people without much knowledge about development use WordPress with some ready to go templates. Such templates can restrict size and mess up responsiveness and many people just ignore issues and don't know how to fix it without messing up whole thing. Many people to hire are not really professionals or they are professionals but they are focused on selling fast and cheap WP stuff and they won't suddenly do something more expensive and time consuming simply because they have schedule and people in line... ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
Whoa whoa whoa, it's not like they're extorting or murdering people. They missed a minimum requirement of pixels??? By 2 pixels?! Why do you care?
This is some Internet hall monitor shit. Why should I care that they're fleecing advertisers? I hate advertisers. I think I kind of like Fextralife.
Make sure to show this guy some love if you all have the time to. He is currently having Fextralife bots with accounts that were created today commenting on his video and telling him how worthless it is.
really? so those guys are really scummy people, specially considering their response of "oh we are just trying to help, we are just a small team, we are people too you know?"
not a bot, and dont think he's worthless lol. but i do think people mad about this should maybe create their own successful site if they want to reap the rewards of one. otherwise they should prolly stfu and stop whining about something so inconsequential.
oh no he's always top stream of what ever game he's playing, ill never get that many kids and coomers that are in-between hot tub streamers to watch my stream! :(
e-beggars problems are hilarious.
@@YeIsCorrect okay bot
@@YeIsCorrect I hope fextralife is paying you for these terrible defense takes you have.
@@YeIsCorrect The bot is going off...
About the last 2/3 of the video...
I'm just happy that the gaming community is starting to shift and raise their standards. It's a step in the right direction to force the industry to stop their downwards trend and do better. It's almost as if the few amazing games we've gotten recently have woken up people to the fact they don't have to settle for garbage.
Sure, but can we go after the bigger industry players rather than a 2-person company? While their rule bending is scummy, I feel bad for them for how out of proportion this has been blown recently.
@@mariusj.2192don't care 😘 if it's 2 or 200000 they all get the heat
@@mariusj.2192 The last 2/3 of the video were about Immortals of Aveum, do you really need to white knight these cheaters in every comment possible that isn't even about them? People like you need some serious help, they are cheating scumbags and you feel bad for them? Why, just because it blew up and they now have to face consequences of their actions? Or just because it's 2 of them? That doesn't make it okay or a reason they shouldn't be scrutinized.
Im really not sure about that, the majority of people still will preorder stinky games like Diablo 4 and be ok with that and even buy skins in a fullprice game. Only time will tell if those people learn some selfrespect or continue their practice.
@@dango2917 cancel culture in a nutshell.
He was on my New World Server when the game launched (Hades). People from his faction raised war on us and he somehow managed to win the war lottery and get his company to attack our teritory. The shit was a big fucking mess, we steamrolled them and i went to watch the vod.
You'd think that the top of the list streamer, with 40k+ viewers, playing a game that requires 50 man coordination would steamroll an entire 1k2 population capped server, but I found out that despite his numberss, the guy had no community on the server. It was so bad that he was forced to pick random dudes from random companies because his company was dead. He was just running around in the battlefield with the only 4-5 people who actually played with him. He tried giving calls through his stream but since no one actually watches him, no one knew who he was and no one was listening. They didnt make any progress and ended up getting spawnkilled and their camp's gate.
I'm sad the vod doesnt exist anymore, because i killed him over and over again with my firestaff/IG. His complaining and baby rage about lack of coordination was really hilarious.
I always wondered how Fextralife went from streaming Elder Scrolls Online to 37 people to the numbers they pull now but never cared enough to look into it. All of this drama has been revealing at least.
All they did to grow their audience was create a few entire wikis for new games and create dozens of really great build videos. Disgusting. /s
@@seemjibernadino6487 a few of the worst wikis on the internet, with embedded players in every single page. those aren't real numbers. that's not growth. let's see how many viewers they get if they remove the embedded twitch from their wikis.
their build guides aren't bad, but they're not entertaining. no one is watching one of those and thinking "this guy is fun, i wanna watch him stream." because while the information isn't terrible, the people talking in them are about as entertaining as drying paint.
@@MidnightShamalanthe wikis are useful though? At least for fromsoft games
@@matthewalvarez6884 half the pages i've checked either had incomplete info or wrong info. so no. they're more focused on having a page than making sure they have the right info on the page or a page worth looking at. like it's been said, if their wikis were good no one would care as much as they do. as it stands, most of their wiki pages have the info you're looking for in the comments section and not on the actual page. but even if they had a useful wiki, it wouldn't excuse the way they embed their stream to bot viewers for their twitch.
@@matthewalvarez6884far from it, their bloodborne one is all incorrect it's actually funny
Fextralife always comes up in my feed and all this time I was wondering why that Stream had so many viewers. I never found it entertaining or helpful, so never got behind why that stream was "popular". Guess now I know why.
Iv allways gone out of my way to not use them even when i played elden ring because i hated the how the stream would load
Exactly what i thought... they never seemed all that entertaining
Now try to convince me how this won't effect sponsers confidence in streamers.
Effect?
yolo
@@BeruCampos Affact?
@@rezy144Mass Effect?
Now try to convince me this is a not a non-issue and you’re not a child.
I was doing the same thing he did to figure out how to disable the Twitch bot and Found that even when the window is not visible it still exists on the website. Twitch also recommended their stream to me because I was logged in to Twitch when I visited their site.
Bruh its been 2 hours and you've quadrupled his sub count. Fully deserved, great video
Always wondered why, for so many years Fextra was allowed to artificially increase their viewcounts in super shady & scummy ways
Stop crying y'all are exposed the scam train is coming to a stop. Wendys is hiring@@yugnok
@@yugnok did you not watch the video? they are not following the rules put in place by twitch and getting away with it. it may be an "intended feature", but they are not using it for it's intended purpose.
You think viewbotting isn't scummy ?@@yugnok
@@Ozmourne Personally I don't. I see this as a pretty harmless way for a free wiki site to try and support itself. I have yet to find a single person this harms in any way, the biggest complaint I've seen actually levied about this is that it makes their channel become featured at times. I see this as a total non-issue as well however, doesn't seem like a big deal to me. A popular site dedicated to free information about gaming supporting itself in this way seems harmless to anyone unless you're bootlicking advertisers. It's kind of silly to be so worried that an embed on a wiki is 2 pixels too small too if you ask me.
Someone should make a Firefox and Chrome extension that either deletes the twitch player or even better, redirects to small streamers on all fextralife wikis
the developers probably paid more in advertising than they made in sales. thats bad for business
Fextra banned me month's ago for calling this out and even sent the policy😂😂 the irony of it after this video is great
As a web-developer I have a few key-points to highlight:
1. I personally thought the embed-abuse gonna be far worse than what was presented.
2. 398 - 400 .. height cannot be interpreted as "intentional" .. (especially when we're talking about height constraints in web-development) Most probably a auto-embed plugin mistake. Not a direct fault. Cause if they really using wordpress, 95% they also used an embed tool and not wrote the code themselves.
3. Coding a website that checks ALL the web-development standards is actually tedious job: optimize images, implement accessability, responsivness, optimize load times, mobile friendly etc.
I was really expecting literally hidden embeds on all type of screens and whatnot.
However all above does not mitigate the fact that there's a stream embed on every fucking single page of the website for no reason. So the intent of bumping their viewership is obvious. The illegality, is not.
There would never be "illegality", the point is not it being illegal or not, not the embedding itself at least, what could be illegal is them using their fake viewcount for advertisers, which is one step further down the line
It is 231 pixels shy on the wiki itself.
@@joe_ferreira i mean that point is absolutely true, but the only ones that can do anything about it is twitch, who clearly does not care. There is no chance a sponsor company finds that out on their own
@@pinolskun8764 Solution is easy actually, next time you see something advertised in Fextralife, tweet @the sponsor or comment in their socials that Fextralife, a sponsored by them stream on twitch, is viewboting their ads on their stream and damaging their brand image by asociation.
they dont know this is happening they only evaluate the channel reach and viewer count, and some of them check scores on some socialblade like sites. Advertirsers are not viewers they are just businesses trying to get their products out there.
I'm shocked it took this long for them to be exposed, I thought this was always known.. I swear this has been known for years
definitely has, just never brought to light because people were always worried about their own positions.
but asmon in specific, doesnt give a shit, hes made his money, hes happy with his stature, and he knows he can step onto another platform if he feels like it.
He knows he can speak and break the barrier on this for a lot of people to see, hoping it causes a new standard to be stated.
It was obvious to anyone who looked, their stream would constantly be one of the top viewer streams after all.
@zninebiggs4911 or maybe people just have better things to worry about
By the way "Immortals of Aveum" the main game advertised on Fextralife's main Twitch page, is averaging between 200-300 concurrent players on stream. When they are paying to be advertised to 30,000 people. I don't think they are getting their money's worth, whatever they are paying Fextra. Sure Fextra probably told them that some views are embedded, but do they know 95% of the viewers aren't actually on the Twitch page, where the actual advertisement for their game is?
So I'm working for a larger German streamer, and we had a 2h Immortals of Aveum sponsored Stream as well. The game didn't look too bad, while we explicitly said, that the performance could be way worse on non-high-end PCs. I didn't know the game did so bad afterwards, it looked quite nice, like watching a movie at some point. The start gave me Arcane vibes, which is a good sign I guess.
i am SO GLAD to watch fextra finally come under fire for the shit they have been doing for YEARS. it always blew my mind how they have view botted like this for 10 years and no one has batted an eye until now, imagine how much money they've sucked off people along the way
why are you so eager to defend the interests of advertisers who view you as a consumer slave lol
@@boethius8114 The enemy of my enemy is my friend
@@MrMalkraz twitch enables and benefits from this, if they stopped allowing it advertisers would spend less and everyone would be worse off.
It makes no sense why people are outraged.
@@boethius8114 didn't ask
@@boethius8114 i dont even mean just advertisers, and i mean just imagine the amount of profit they have made from this
Sponsors should sue them.
LET HIM COOK
bro, studying IT (in your 2nd year) already teaches you atleast how dynamic websites work (that uses auto width and height function on it), as it will be a school project for one of your majors. (in our case, just a simple registration/login page and an eccomerce page with database)
I get that ad placements could be changed for preference. but them not putting it on a popup player (seperated frame that overlays the main page) so that it could be viewed on the whole page with a hide function is a massive oversight.
Well I hope the sponsors do see this problem regarding his "popularity" and dynamic website... since this is fraud or breach of contract.
The music made the video. The suspense building up as the guy showed the inner working of the pages
Immortal launch between BG3 and AC6. They sabotaged themselves. Also I saw cohh have technical problem on the beginning. It's a huge red flag for a new game.
Yeah, I think their usage of sponsored streams to build interest for the game also helped in their self-sabotage. I saw parts of one sponsored stream and it was full of technical issues.The game also seemed even less interesting than Forspoken, which is a feat in and of itself. The game was just doomed, I think.
Imagine EA just put all that sponsor money into the game itself. Maybe it would've at least broken a 7.5/10.
Yet they stipl somehow make millions of remamking fifa every year
@@twilkdamilk4659 That is the sad reality. We all(myself included) pretend like baldurs gate and elden ring prove that good games make money but in the end ea&co make more than larian and fromsoft with a fraction of the effort. And so it will get worse unless someone outright criminalizes microtransactions.
They were too busy making the game woke, it was doomed from the jump.
you know damn well when fextralife is negotiating sponsor prices with a sponsor they're like: "well we demand X amount of money because you see we get a consistent 30K viewers, that's a lot of exposure for you." It's so disingenuous and should be punished
Who cares? Sponsors are shitty anyway, I'm glad someone is utilizing a good way of getting more money out of them. Maybe other streamers should stop complaining and use the same strategy while it works to make themselves some money?
They prolly mention the embed, but the sponsors should have looked into it to see bow bad it actually is
@@brussailpook8213 they rarely do and most of the time these marketing people discussing the deals have no clue. Try explaining to your mom or dad how fextralife is faking their viewercount, they most likely won't understand anything you're saying (mine definitely won't). Those are the kind of people that are making those deals most of the time.
we should pretend to hit em up about sponsor deals and take a look at how theyre selling it. :)
@@HiUnidentified that would be an interesting insight
Oh, I see now. If you go to their wiki for a guide, automatically turns your view of that page into a view in your stream, and worse, if you open many tabs at the same time, will it count as more viewers? Does it count guess accounts to inflate the viewer record?
Gotta love the BG3 boss music playing in the background as our hero absolutely cooks up fextralife into oblivion
Personally, I used wiki pages at half screen size so that I can check whats happening in game so for me if I go to fextralife's wiki the twitch embed autoplays on mute at the bottom of the page where I can't even see it which makes it ridiculous that I would count as a viewer but as it is at the moment twitch is finessing the advertisers with the system so they don't care. At minimum to get this changed advertisers need to be made aware of this prime viewing experience that people are getting of the adverts on streams using embeds like this, because frankly it's no different than view botting in the current state.
The channel linked in the description is the wrong yt account if you just click the name. The difference is easily spottable if you open a tab with the video link and a tab with the hyperlink on the dapperfoxtrot1044 name.
Everytime I see the name "Fextralife" I think it's a Furry game or comic or something. IDK why, the name just screams 'Furry' to me.
imagine him saying the marvel snap is an authentic experience for his channel, lmao
"This is a game that doesn't have a lot of gacha" - It doesn't have a lot of gacha because it is ALL gacha.
@@matthewseelowi have been playing half year and yes there is a lot of pay to fast and 100$ bundles, but you cant get the cards if you are patient. New ones not that easy without spending money
@@matthewseelow Naw man, that game is not a money trap. Sure you can speed up the rate of progression but it simply doesn't matter because more cards doesn't make you win more games. The shop prices for real money ARE atroucious but you simply ignore them... You can also savely ignore the season pass for 10 bucks pass because it's literally like one card that you absolutely can make do without on your collector journey (you WILL earn the card later anyway) and a couple cosmetics.
Gameplay is fun and you keep getting new stuff all the time. After a couple of months you will have like 200 cards in your collection and will be able to play so many different decks. The rate of collection WILL slow down, but there are several systems in place to let you get the cards you really want to have for your decks. And besides that you will just keep earning new random cards all the time. For long time players it becomes more about getting cool variants of existing cards.
Playing the game is about making great decks with what you got and then playing the deck well. You don't just stomp over people with broken stuff or vice versa because eventually you know what kind of decks are "the meta" and how to handle them. You can absolutey take wins with your beginner cards. People lose only if they don't know what kind of decks are out there. There are ton's of really strong answers in every beginner's collection. e.g. Shang Chi, Cosmo, Enchantress, Armor are all strong counters to popular meta decks that everybody can play.
Because it's purely a PvP game, the game is all about balance, no matter if it's a beginner card or some fresh new design. Older and underplayed cards get buffs all the time. I'd say 95% of all cards are viable in the right deck.
So..
that EA immortals game got streamed to 220k people at peak, with what i assume 30-35k of them belonging to Fextralife.
this means over 10% of the people who "watched" the streams, prob didnt even know they watched it.
man thats sad af.
To be fair though, the money EA spent to sponsor a stream with non-watchers was probably better spent than the money that went to streamers with an actual audience, because from what little I saw of the game, it looked boring, rather bland and uninteresting. I think that game was just doomed to die from the start.
I think they (Fextra) had about 60-70k for it
When I was trying to use their wiki (which was the only good one for Elden Ring) this was super annoying to deal with on every page. I'm glad people are shaming them
Seeing Immortals do so poorly is pretty sad. It’s a really fun early 2010’s style fps, but the combination of negative prelaunch sentiment from EA branding, busy release period, and full price have destroyed any hope of momentum. It’d be interesting to see if a $40 release in mid-July could’ve significantly change things. It feels like the type of game that’s a perfect pallet cleanser during the slow period inbetween big AAA releases, but not a game people would choose instead of one. Hope it can pick up some steam when it comes to gamepass later down the line.
The tagged youtuber and the youtuber for tagged video link isnt the same in the description
Even if I like the drama behind all this, it's sad that nothing will happen to fextralife in the end...
Maybe a few sponsors won’t get scammed and go with someone else.
I've used their site for BG3 and with adblock it doesn't even show up, so I'm curious if it still counted me as a viewer on Twitch.
as soon as that Foxtrots goes "Okay" you know he's about to ruin their day, you can some up Foxtrot's whole video as "ah shit he's got receipts" lmao
In regards to Aveum, I believe most people couldn't even play it even if they want to.
The min spec req is pretty hefty for a large part of the world and even then there are rumors that it struggles on that.
I bet a lot of people actually bought and played the game, then subsequently refunded it when it just does not work on their rig.
Twitch has got to add a script that at least tells them what site an embed is playing on, what dimensions the player is, and moderate it worth staff. They could even go as far as requiring a kind of partnership with specific sites in a whitelist to allow embedding.
This is why i keep blocking the twitch player with uBlock Origin, by selecting "block elements" from the page.
I hate auto play, especially with my low quality internet.
Covering this for the last last time
Which is why I blocked Twitch on fextralife. I did not want to give them views.
To calculate the percentage drop between 220,000 and 85, you can use the following formula:
Percentage Drop = ((Initial Value - Final Value) / Initial Value) * 100
In this case:
Initial Value = 220,000
Final Value = 85
So, the percentage drop would be:
((220,000 - 85) / 220,000) * 100 = 99.96136%
Rounded to two decimal places, the percentage drop is approximately 99.96%.
Immortals of Aveum recommended spec is a 3080 ti so not surprising that a lot of people wont buy it
the @ in the vid desciption isn't going towards the correct channel. it needs to be 'thedapperfoxtrot'
As a fellow webdev i was coded this side and it didnt adher to the legal clauses in the documentation: i would no longer be a webdev
I'm about 1 minute and 30 seconds into the video right now and I already love this guy. Dude came prepared for battle. "Okay let's talk about it!" Hell yeah, let's.
About immortals of aveum: Not only it's bland linear game, it's also very demanding. The minimum specs for the game is last gen mid-high gaming pc, people just don't want to waste their $60 for a bland game that barely run on their pc.
No wonder the fextralife wiki page absolutely dogs my performance.
finally people are looking at this.
I saw an ad pop up for that immortals of aveum game on a random pre-roll and immediately thought it looked like trash
I commented this on the last Fextralife vid, but I hadn’t heard of them before these vids came out lol. Feels like I’ve been living under a rock or something
That's because they don't want the public to be aware of them.
so 99.9996% of 'viewers' disappeared that is 6 sigma
I do wonder how many actual people they have on their wiki at once to always be around 30k ish viewers and actually keeping the site open up for that long? Could you actually have bots to create clicker traffic on their site to get views which could get around the twitch TOS of view botting?
If I'm on a wiki I usually can leave the page open for hours if I end up needing to follow it, or if I just forget about it
So.. What would stop someone at Fextralife just running multiple VM instances that open a ton of browsers and tabs, you could run an auto script to resize the frames specifically to not have the player hogging resources?
I can't wait until games losing over 99% of their playerbase becomes the norm 😂
😝
Again this is why i dont use twitch, when some dude increasing his viewer count is worse then all the hottube streamers.
I watched Fextralife for a few seconds of my life, absolutely dead
I dont get why EA sets their IPs up for failure by cramming them between big hitter games.
They did the same BS to Titanfall 2 as theyre doing to Immortals. (Which isnt even a bad game)
''Tis but a terrible thing to fall but even worse is to admit it'' - Kreia, Knights of the old republic
That fake comment about "I never would of gotten through Limgrave without you fextra" lol the easiest fucking level in the game
Part of EA's problem is that they don't put much thought past viewer counts. But I think it's far better to advertise on a streamer that plays your type of game.
It's sad man. It's because of dudes like this that us guys who actually put in the work get ignored and fade into obscurity over time 😢.
Idc about Fex screwing advertisers and gaming the system, its the malicious bot attacks on potential competitors while botting own content to the top to monopolize without merit that is unforgiveable.
It's all bad honestly. Screwing advertisers will trickle down to forcing more ads on the platform which will effect anyone watching content. Everything they've been doing is pretty shady though. Did you hear about how they treated the Demon Souls and Dark souls communities and creators? Back in the early days of their wikis they'd let the upload guides, builds and edits but after they did they'd edit them out and make their own to put up. After that they'd ban those same people.
Yeah, if they didn't defend themselves and called themselves "people too". then this would not have escalated and died out in a week.
Let's say I have limited internet connection, like mobile connection. Arn't they stealing your bandwidth by auto playing? I think people can Sue them for that.(Not a Lawyer, so maybe not)
They changed the to be 340x403 literally as soon as this video came out
Good job Fextraloser 🙄
Edit: Except that one on the forums lmao, still tiny
Currently as of 9/10/2023. There is 5 viewers on twitch. Wow.
*For Immortals of Aveum
The problem is the only damn wiki for Baldur's Gate 3 content is Fextralife. Just a bunch of shitty IGN guides and other terrtble resources. Fextra's isn't much better granted. But we need an actual BG3 wiki to really put the hurt on him.
well you could make one and link your twitch stream on it
bg3(dot)wiki, community wiki for baldur's gate 3 that is pretty good (does miss a few things here and there, but the game is new so it's to be expected).
There seems to be a community-run one as well, but Fextralife's often comes up first.
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links, but searching "bg3 wiki" should turn it up in results
why is he a bad guy if he knows how to position himself on google? this whole rant seems so stupid
@@kaydenRL free market is not one sided. He can learn all the tricks as a provider to get all the advantage. Customers can in turn talk among ourselves to say the product is shit. Or how to access better products. Why you taking side of the seller and not the buyer?
Fextralife is the worst wiki site out there. Not only the viewbotting, but also the content.
Guy is the batman of the internet. The hero we don't deserve
I wonder how many ads per hour they have their channel set to.
Its nice to see people fighting the good fight 🤣
The last time something was confirmed so quickly, was when the saleswoman told me I'm an XL, I said i was a L. I was an XL
A wild Asmousegold appeared.
Music works sooo well with that dude uncovering fextralife's bullshit
You added the wrong channel handle in the description.
Short note for the editors: the channel link in the description is the wrong channel. Just noting. Great video!
Its sad cause with the immortals situation it shows how little streamers actually affect the people who will play the game. Doesn't matter if many watched since it gave a bad payout for EA. Also sad when the game doesn't do well when EA was willing to invest into a a new IP.
but also, if they never spent millions on sponsors they could of made the game better, from the steam comments its not optimised for anything under a 4080
@@the_ejj also true but it’s Unreal Engine 5 with nanite and lumen i’ts maybe to be expected. Need to see what Digital Foundry says when Alex posts his video. Hard to say how much better it would run with optimisation. But also good someone pushes graphics like witcher 3, crysis etc did.
They could have just made a better game. One could tell, even before this game released that it was uninspired, generic and overall totally unappealing.
@@komyuta2556 i’ve read good things about it and combat looks fun but Will have to try it myself i before can say anything.
Releasing a game right between 2 of the biggest releases of the year was just setting it up for failure, just like they did with Titanfall.
Doing that while charging $70 for it while most people are getting hit HARD by inflation will only cause people to choose which they'd rather buy.
Plus if you can only afford a handful of games a year you're more likely to buy the games that'll offer 100s of hours of gameplay compared to Immortals that has like what.... 40 hours max? (Guessing)
This is completely EAs fault, they set this launch up to fail. (Which is sad because the game isn't even bad)
Also web dev here, this practice was recently flagged recently to google and many advertising companies have been going after google for this kind of deceptive practice, basically lots of advertisers pay for ads or promotions that are hidden or too small that end up generating no clicks but a lot of "views " , though in reality thoses views are just caused by video autoplaying in a 1x1 px thats hidden from view , many advertisers are sold that they get a lot of views for what they pay for but in reality they pay for false views and get no clicks or real traffic to their products pages at all ... Louis Rossman also did a video about this i think
I think you put the wrong youtube channel in the description bro ..
Imo don't let pressure up on them until fextra openly gives up and removes the embedding
Is it not weird how he's not streamed since he was called out? Hmmm
not sure if you'll see this but video in description is correct but the @ is wrong, redirects me to some random channel with sports clips
2 days ago: "Addressing this one last time"
Today: I lied
I really don’t get why people care so much, it’s the biggest non issue of all time
Dont stop making videos of fexra until twitch takes away embeds
"He is about to cook" exactly my thought when he said, "Now if I was the type of player..." I knew some heat was on the way.
They're pretty scummy who have also been known to lie all the time. I remember when Demon's Souls started taking off and I found their site. They had a chatroom set up inside the website so those viewing the site could talk to one another. 99% of the topics were people complaining about the auto play ads blasting at 100% volume. FexLea would always, ALWAYS say they never run auto-play ads, yet for years the ads would auto-play. Around the time Dark Souls came out, people were making videos about where to find equipment and builds and posting it to the website under relevant areas, the videos were always taken down then someone else would repost the exact same content but from a different creator, in the end it was always the small group of Fextralife creators making everything and everyone else was removed/banned from making posts. Which is why now, so many pages are either empty or down right WRONG because the people that would edit them have all been banned off the site
That's just it, no one will talk about this. They just keep saying their wikis for this is good. They won't allow anyone to edit or add to the wikis. They've done this with so many games and have gone into countless communities to push their content to the top and push the other creators and original content down.
12:35 Any kind soul would be able to tell me what music it is ?
Found it myself, it's The Witcher 3 OST "Farewell, Old Friend" by Marcin Przybyłowicz
This isn’t a fextralife issue, this is a twitch issue.
Titanfall 2 is a great example of how even the most polished of gems can get absolutely fucked by a bad release date.
uuuuh just after i got home from work , gotta take a shower , cook something and then watch this Hehehe good timing
Hehehe
Hehehe
Heh
Noticed during him scrolling through the guidelines that it also said that default muted = false
I honestly don't give a crap that they did this, they're not bothering the end user, they're scamming twitch and I'm for screwing big corpo.😂
Plus they got those views from acrual people using their wiki, so it is their audience watching, a real person.
I personally use my monitor half for discord and half browser. I'd never get to see the twitch player and still count as a viewer without ever knowing. Fuck this.